PDA

View Full Version : FPrime and why



primemac
03-04-2008, 09:18 PM
I have to say I am at a loss of why I would need FPrime.
So I guess I need some one that uses this to explain what the deal is.
I have used F9 and viper and thought it does the same thing.

I don't know about you but that's a lot of green to spend on something I
already have using viper.

jasonwestmas
03-04-2008, 09:21 PM
viper and F9 are nothing like Fprime as far as the quickness of the feedback when setting up a rendered scene. Also Viper does not work with nodal shaders or materials, Fprime does with many of the nodes that do not have pre-processing.

RedBull
03-05-2008, 12:00 AM
I have to say I am at a loss of why I would need FPrime.
So I guess I need some one that uses this to explain what the deal is.
I have used F9 and viper and thought it does the same thing.

I don't know about you but that's a lot of green to spend on something I
already have using viper.

It is expensive and because of lots of SDK changes and limitations, FPrime is certainly not perfect and development is somewhat sporadic. But for realtime feedback of most everyday options FPrime is worth it's wait in gold. Viper is not multithreaded nor is it realtime feedback...

With FPrime it's always working and refining while you are working, if you take a pause for 3 seconds, Fprime doesn't...... This really enables you to tweak and adjust settings far more fluently. F9 renders that can take 15+mins on my quadcore can be rendered almost instantly with the FPrime previewer, i get to see the lighting/shadows/displacements etc all rendered raytraced from different camera angles if i want and adjust them, before needing a 15min LW test render.

For lighting/surfacing real-time feedback is a must as you can really just achieve the same results much more quickly.. I tend not to use the final FPrime Render very much, but the previewer is a must for myself. If you have paying customers the amount of time saved with interactive renderer's will pay for itself very quickly. If you are just a hobbyist you have a harder time deciding on if it's worth it for yourself.

PS just tried a Glass render in Viper and it was just black, FPrime however is all nice and glassy.... Viper is borderline pathetic IMO at this stage, GLSL could do a better job.

primemac
03-05-2008, 12:00 PM
So does it bog down the system then like how does it like take less than viper and get more with out bogging things down unless there is a down side. I am just starting out so not a hobbyist. I am just starting to look for customers that will be fun part. Let the bidding wars begin lol.

How does it deal with HyperVoxlel with a scene then. I hate viper when it comes to this part. I have to F9 all the time to check model with HyperVoxles. Does FPrime view the job right?

RollerJesus
03-05-2008, 12:22 PM
A hobbyist opinion...
I've found that FPrime doesn't bog down my system at all and because I get feedback from changes so much more quickly than VIPER, my learning curve has been significantly diminished, particularly with lighting.

My vote is FPrime is definately worth the cost.

Greenlaw
03-05-2008, 01:43 PM
How does it deal with HyperVoxlel with a scene then. I hate viper when it comes to this part. I have to F9 all the time to check model with HyperVoxles. Does FPrime view the job right?

Actually, this is one of the few areas where Viper can be quite useful. We use Viper to preview Hypervoxel settings, and if the HV settings are internally animated, Viper can show that too.

Even though we typically use Fprime as a previewer for shading and lighting, Fprime cannot preview HVs. However, FPrime Render can render HVs and it does it relatively quickly and quite well. FPrime Render works great for quickly rendering HV tests, and we've often used Fprime Render to render final HV elements.

As for general rendering, we don't use Fprime for finals right now because we're still using Fprime 2 here which doesn't support network rendering. When we upgrade to 3, we'll seriously consider using it's network capabilities in some situations. The main issue, for us anyway, is that Fprime can't output it's channel buffers to separate files; this is a big deal if you're a heavy compositer.

As for me, I use Fprime 3 on my laptop and it rocks! I love that I can see nodal surfaces in real time now, which was the kick I needed to start learning and using the node editor. Unfortunately, Fprime 3 doesn't yet display nodes that use the preprocessing stage, like Fast Skin. For this, I like to set up a non-nodal approximation, and then I can toggle the Node Editor off and see the approximate surface when doing lighting previews in Fprime. Obviously, this isn't a perfect system, but it's still pretty awesome, and it allows me to be significantly more productive than using just F9 alone.

If you can afford it, it's money well spent. Just my 2-cents. :)

DRG

manproof
03-05-2008, 01:47 PM
Fprime is great. Just a heads up though- if you are on a Mac you should read about FPrime's compatibility with your version of OS, and your type of Mac. Do a search for "FPrime" and "Mac" in the forum, and check the Worley site.

RedBull
03-05-2008, 07:10 PM
So does it bog down the system then like how does it like take less than viper and get more with out bogging things down unless there is a down side. I am just starting out so not a hobbyist. I am just starting to look for customers that will be fun part. Let the bidding wars begin lol.

Yeah in a business sense, it's the kind of tool that pays for itself, but a hobbyist can often get away without having the pressures of having deadlines. Fprime doesn't really slow things down to much, LW is still very interactive while using it. (Far more so than Viper)


How does it deal with HyperVoxlel with a scene then. I hate viper when it comes to this part. I have to F9 all the time to check model with HyperVoxles. Does FPrime view the job right?

Unfortunately the SDK limitations of LW, prevent HV from being previewed by FPrime, they do render in the Final FPrime Renderer, but alas Viper is still a necessary evil for HV. Image and Pixel Filters, Volumetrics etc do not work with it, and it's a very big gotcha, so be warned.

SP00
03-05-2008, 08:39 PM
After the new render engine, I find that Fprime is only valuable for texturing. Which is a great thing still. I use to rely on Fprime for final render output, but not anymore. The new render engine in LW gives me better results with less noise. But for texturing using nodes, Fprime saves you a lot of time.

I find that if I'm using Fprime for final output, using fprime for lighting isnt ideal as it doesn't really match the LW renderer's lights.

In term of network rendering, I would use Fprime instead of screamernet. I find the using interpolation in LW gives flickering noise results due to how different CPU calculates random information. So Fprime gives you better faster results than LW Monte Carlo/final gather calculations without interpolation.

jcaesar
03-05-2008, 09:45 PM
One of the nice features of FPrime is you can resize the window, and you don't need to do any pre-rendering with the VIPER option on, like with VIPER.

If I'm trying to setup lights and such, I'll make the window smaller. If I'm surfacing, I'll make it 40-50% the size of my display (my disp. is 1920x1200).

Also, you can mouse-wheel scroll to zoom in, without moving your camera, if you need a closer look at the textures. With VIPER you can't do any of that.

Granted, there are things that both can do, that the other can't. As one who is currently a hobbyist, I have to say of the majority of plug-ins I've bought, it's the most useful one, used every time I'm in layout. It's allowed me to do things much faster in Lightwave, since I don't have to test render as often.

jasonwestmas
03-06-2008, 07:10 AM
After the new render engine, I find that Fprime is only valuable for texturing.

Yes, some materials/ shaders render a minimum of 2 minutes with F9 to see anything worth forming an opinion about. To view an entire scene with multiple nodal sets takes much longer. With F-prime I can take the same set of nodal setups and form an opinion for the entire rendered frame in about 5-10 seconds for complex scenes.

Greenlaw
03-06-2008, 12:56 PM
Also, you can mouse-wheel scroll to zoom in, without moving your camera, if you need a closer look at the textures. With VIPER you can't do any of that.

Oh, that reminds me: back when we were doing one of the COD trailers, I used FPrime and my mousewheel to zoom in on the eye of a german soldier who a couple hundred meters away, and I could actually see the scene reflected back in it. It was pretty amazing, especially since FPrime was previewing in near realtime.

DRG

primemac
03-06-2008, 10:59 PM
hmm not you got me thinking. My avatar is a model I did but sounds like FPrime would have shown me the final glass look while viper was black and had to F9 to see my changes. How about sasquatch? To bad about HyperVox I like to do a lot of water stuff and it takes a little time to get the water just right to look good.

Drocket
03-10-2008, 02:42 AM
I am looking at the video tutorials on worleys site for the first time now and I am seriously impressed, I never bothered looking before because I always thought I could do without fprime but I am now considering it. I thought modo's previewer was pretty good but fprime appears so much better.

The only reservation I have at the moment is if Newtek decide to do their own version in the near future, though I think I will still go with fprime as it is gives you another option.

Are the updates within fprime as fast as they appear in the videos?

I looked on their web site and couldn't find the info but how does network rendering work if fprime is locked to your dongle?

RedBull
03-10-2008, 02:50 AM
The only reservation I have at the moment is if Newtek decide to do their own version in the near future, though I think I will still go with fprime as it is gives you another option.

It's unlikely NT or many other companies could easily achieve an FPrime equiv,
it would generally take a lot of time and effort to achieve, and very few others have been able too.


Are the updates within fprime as fast as they appear in the videos?
Yes, depending on your PC speed obviously, but it's very interactive and fast.


I looked on their web site and couldn't find the info but how does network rendering work if fprime is locked to your dongle?

It's a bit of a hack using LWSN, so it works the same ways as Screamernet does now using your dongle. So if you have setup LW Networking, generally FPrime is easy to get going too..

Drocket
03-10-2008, 02:57 AM
Thanks Redbull :)

I am still looking at the video's (nearly finished :)), my jaw is hurting from keep hitting the desk :)

I think I have already made up my mind and will get a copy this week, I am still shocked at how damn fast it is at updating in the videos, and how thick I have been for not considering the purchase earlier :)

LittleFenris
03-14-2008, 02:06 PM
I am still looking at the video's (nearly finished :)), my jaw is hurting from keep hitting the desk :)

I think I have already made up my mind and will get a copy this week, I am still shocked at how damn fast it is at updating in the videos, and how thick I have been for not considering the purchase earlier :)

I've used older versions of FPrime and it was amazing how fast it would show you the scene with all the lights and such looking good. To me FPrime is worth the money for lighting alone, not to mention texturing. I never did use FPrime for final renders (seemed a bit noisy unless it had time to do a lot of passes), but for all the other stuff it was invaluable.

Drocket
03-14-2008, 02:43 PM
I ended up buying a copy earlier this week and very glad I did, it does make a big difference to lighting and texturing which was the main reason I bought it.

I had considered buying it last year then put it off, then I read this thread and thought I would look at the video's, which to be honest is what finally sold me.

jeremyhughes77
03-14-2008, 03:27 PM
Good choice, the more I end up under tight deadlines, the more impressed I am with Fprime. I can interactively setup scenes so fast but honestly, the majority of my final renders are coming out of Fprime too. Its so fast and when you need a preview of an 120 frame HD animation with DOF and MB turned on the next day, it does the trick!

Drocket
03-14-2008, 03:34 PM
One of the things I love about it is how easy it is to zoom into your scene within the fprime window, so useful when you need to get in close to check things out.

The speed is amazing, I wasn't sure how fast it would be from the videos but it really is quick, money well spent :)

Nicolas Jordan
03-14-2008, 04:40 PM
I don't know about this FPrime thing, everyone here makes it sound so good but when I used it there was just a big blurry mess on my render after about 5 seconds so I closed it and decided I would never use it again. Viper is much better at doing radiosity. :D