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View Full Version : The END ALL thread about criticising Lightwave/Newtek.



Intuition
02-29-2008, 11:17 AM
Man I need to make a general txt file I can copy and paste arguments into when these love/hate threads come up.

One reason is because the threads often have a general statement about trying to make criticism without being unfair and then you always have people pulling at the rope for the fairness of criticism leveled on newtek whilst trying to make people understand that all is not bad either.

Newtek have a good product with Lightwave.

I use it along with all the other 3d apps routinely.

I don't think any of the apps are perfect. I use them all except blender (although I have used blender alot I don't use it routinely anymore) and houdini , which will gets its chance later in 08 or early 09.

I also think all the fuss about Blender being the end all 3d app is ridiculous.

Yes blender has all these general capabilities but I would never choose it over realflow for fluids or zbrush for sculpting, painting or over modo for modeling, over XSI for dynamics, cloth, and character animation, over Lightwave the endall fasto F-Prime/Lwave combo for from building a scene from scratch to final renders for quick delivery with great quality speed or even the 2nd to none in camera motion blur or DoF, over maya for particle sim and particle rendering or its blastcode, over 3d max for its fumeFX and the F$%ck$ing ridiculously awesome Vray.

Yes, blender, ahem, neat its free. great...neat.. good, now come over to Edenfx and show us some production ready stuff.

Now in all fairness, I think that some things in Lightwave are getting far behind and it is why my list woth other apps is long but I guarantee you that there are little gotchas in all the other apps that will drive you nuts as well.

Man, XSI has the neatest integrated hair system. I love it. Now go buy me 150 render nodes of Mental ray at $600 a pop after the first 10 nodes included with the $6000+ advance so we can use it on a render farm.

Ever tried rotoscoping in other apps besides Lightwave?

Where Newtek have run into trouble is that they have the price of Lightwave around what $600 now? This is all nice and dandy for hobby artists but when you look at the other apps going for around $3000 for all the features you guys want Lightwave to have at the same high quality you start to see where newtek is hitting a wall.

Newtek is not about to open source their software. NO WAY. You think you'd pay for it after that?

Maya and Max and XSI did not get advanced features by selling their software for cheap. They pay through the nose for top notch programming and software planning that is probably carefully mapped by a team bigger then the entire newtek staff that does nothing but plan how the software will develop.

I don't think Netwek can mobilize that kind of talent selling Lightwave for under $1000. Don't get me wrong, Newtek has some damn good programmers but I am betting their programming team is probably small compared to the teams at Alias, Autodesk, and Softimage.

So yeah, Blender has all these features that were coded in by tons of people.

Newtek isn't going to be able to match that at the current price. It will have to be free and open source OR they would have to raise the price to aquire more programming talent. I think its amazing what they get from the team they have now. Not because the programmers aren't talented but because each programmer probably has stretched their man hours into the realm of slave labor to bring you the things Lightwave has now. All this on a neat and tight budget so lots of people can have it for $600 and you still get free render nodes as long as you have the computers.

Think about it. If a Hollywood company wants a mental ray farm that has like 200 render nodes you are talking about the kind of money that could buy as many licenses of Lightwave and I think Newtek gives you a deal after so many purchases and this is just for one company to have a mental ray render farm.

One company wants 200 nodes of mental ray = $120,000 for the licenses even before you talk about buying computers to install them on.

Add that up and you'll see why other apps are rocking towards the future.

Newtek and Lightwave are in a great spot considering they are selling the app for under a grand. Do you sell your 3D animations you made from Lightwave for that cheap?

Its an achievement all its own. :thumbsup: :newtek:

Complain all you want about promises you thought would be in 9.0, it is not going to change a thing.

When I bought Lightwave 6.5 (started in lw4.0) it was like $3500 and it was way ahead of the other apps. Max nor Maya nor XSI had radiosity or hypervoxels and you had to buy a $65,000 SGI machine and a $32,000 copy of softimage, just to not have the features Lightwave had in 6.5.

So unless people are willing to convince Newtek they would be happy to pay two to four grand for Lightwave don't expect it to have houdini fluids and glass all interacting in one simulation.

Complaining about promises can be valid but you can try arguing with the sun and yell at it not com up every day. What I am saying is that everyone, including Newtek wants exactly what the complainers want. They want advanced features, bug free, all the time. But then theres this thing called "reality" that comes along and makes people have to eat and sleep and that same reality can say to you, "Hey buddy, go buy another app if you need said feature so bad your children are going to starve". Meanwhile Newtek will try to get those things in Lightwave as fast as they can on their team and budget.

Be happy Lightwave exists at all for $600 or convince Newtek you'd be happy to pay $3000 for advanced features OR buy something else. Its the only realistic way of looking at the situation.

bobakabob
02-29-2008, 11:23 AM
Well said Intuition!

wavemaster
02-29-2008, 11:30 AM
:thumbsdow
Another bull crap thread!!!
When NT was selling LW 9.0, if they would have said to all of us... these are features that we plan on giving you by the end of the 9.x cycle, but we are not going to be able to deliver on them because are software is to cheap.

Then your post might make a 1% of sense!!!

Plus I see a lot of talk in there about the way things used to be! It is present time now!

geothefaust
02-29-2008, 11:35 AM
I think you're assuming too much here wavemaster. I said it in the other thread, so I'll say it here too.


Future features are not promises and were never guaranteed. Plans change, and yeah that sucks. But I've seen enough endless whining on the forums. It's been, what, over a year and a half? Two years? Get. Over. It.

Where the hell is Stooch when you need him? Get in here Stooch! We need your "I don't care if I made you angry" attutide. :thumbsup:

MikeUnderwood
02-29-2008, 11:38 AM
:thumbsdow
Another bull crap thread!!!
When NT was selling LW 9.0, if they would have said to all of us... these are features that we plan on giving you by the end of the 9.x cycle, but we are not going to be able to deliver on them because are software is to cheap.

Then your post might make a 1% of sense!!!

Plus I see a lot of talk in there about the way things used to be! It is present time now!


I just don't understand why anyone would buy a product that doesn't fit their needs with the assumption that it might fit them later.

Intuition
02-29-2008, 11:40 AM
:thumbsdow
Another bull crap thread!!!
When NT was selling LW 9.0, if they would have said to all of us... these are features that we plan on giving you by the end of the 9.x cycle, but we are not going to be able to deliver on them because are software is to cheap.

Then your post might make a 1% of sense!!!

Plus I see a lot of talk in there about the way things used to be! It is present time now!

Yes, its the now.

Honestly though, can you sum up one possible complaint or criticism that will help Newtek deliver those features in 9.0?

Oh, wait, 9.0 was released in 2006 which is the not so "present".

Sorry, whilst I said that criticism of projected vs. delivered features is valid it only goes so far at which point you have to move on or deal.

Its the same conclusion we have come to since way back when the Newtek forum was the old treebranch thread style.

I understand all the criticism, meaning I have even complained a bit myself, and Newtek wishes they could meet it, but at a certain point you have to move forward in your own situation.

Actually I'll tell you what Wave, show me one feature you need really badly that you don't have in Lightwave and I'll see if I can show you a quick way to get to that goal or how in other apps there are similar hang ups.

connerh
02-29-2008, 11:40 AM
Is the 9.x cycle over? Nope. Therefore, stop whining about them not delivering. They ARE giving us new features, they ARE improving current ones, and the cycle is NOT finished. As Intuition stated, the NT development team isn't the small army that other more expensive players have, so be patient, they take longer to develop. Right now these complaints are like if someone gave you the first 5 out of 10 chapters of a book in a series to look over and you start complaining that chapter 5 doesn't finish the book.

Anyways, all good points, Intuition. I can only imagine how frustrating it can be for the dev team to be working their asses off trying to make the milestones that were predicted before much work had been done on those features. Such is the life of programming though...


Wow, in the time it took me to type this up there were already three posts made...

akademus
02-29-2008, 11:44 AM
Agree with Intuition.
After all, Lightwave is Newtek's product and it's up to them how they are going to develop/market/sell/beta test it.
Don't like it, switch elsewhere. But, the grass only looks greener on the other side(s)

wavemaster
02-29-2008, 11:47 AM
I am not agree at all, and I enjoy using LW... But I see a bunch of delusional people in hear that are willing to rollover and allow themselves to be ripped off by a company, smiling and praising them along the way!

And as far as the original post goes... Does any one remember NT saying that they wouldn't be competing with the other apps that cost more! In fact I have heard them say the opposite.

wavemaster
02-29-2008, 11:50 AM
Yes, its the now.

Honestly though, can you sum up one possible complaint or criticism that will help Newtek deliver those features in 9.0?

Oh, wait, 9.0 was released in 2006 which is the not so "present".

Sorry, whilst I said that criticism of projected vs. delivered features is valid it only goes so far at which point you have to move on or deal.

Its the same conclusion we have come to since way back when the Newtek forum was the old treebranch thread style.

I understand all the criticism, meaning I have even complained a bit myself, and Newtek wishes they could meet it, but at a certain point you have to move forward in your own situation.

Actually I'll tell you what Wave, show me one feature you need really badly that you don't have in Lightwave and I'll see if I can show you a quick way to get to that goal or how in other apps there are similar hang ups.

Na...I am good! I doupt you could advise me of much... by the sounds of your first post!

hrgiger
02-29-2008, 11:52 AM
I don't think an immediate price jump to $1500 or $2,000 or whatever they would charge is the immediate answer. You cant' alienate all the users who have come to depend on the affordability of Lightwave over the years, especially the last several since they dropped their price to well below a grand.

What I do want to see however is for Newtek to grow and for Lightwave to be more respected in the 3D community at large. There's a lot of trash talk out there, and the worst part is, some of it, no, a lot of it is coming from former Lightwave users who were convinced that Lightwave was on it's way out, so they bailed.

I really want Newtek to consider starting to raise their prices, maybe just a couple hundred dollars at first, and then let the market blow it where it may from there. Why doesn't anyone respect Hash's animation master? It has great character animation tools and many great features. But it's a joke because it's a $300 program. I may not agree with the idea that cost equals quality, but I definately agree that the perception is out there to suggest just that. Get Lightwave at least above $1,000. Give yourself more money for development, hire a few new programmers (I haven't seen Newtek hiring developers for Lightwave for some time, at least on the careers page), and for God's sake, let's see more marketing for Lightwave!!

Oh one more thing, has the beta started yet....I'm feeling a bit impatient...

geothefaust
02-29-2008, 11:55 AM
I don't think anyone here is delusional, just a number of opinions with varying degrees of 'fact' to each of them, and perhaps some assumptions flying about.

I don't think anyone got ripped off. If you're not familiar with how the life of programmers go, I can tell you, it's pretty dynamic. Things change pretty quickly. It's better to be on the side of the caution, and not assume that everything in a feature list will appear for what respective program you are happening to look at. Anyway, I could drill this information all day, and I still don't think some people would soak it up.

I'm going back to doing something more productive. See you guys later!

Intuition
02-29-2008, 12:00 PM
It's better to be on the side of the caution

I'm going back to doing something more productive. See you guys later!

Exactly. :D

Intuition
02-29-2008, 12:10 PM
Na...I am good! I doupt you could advise me of much... by the sounds of your first post!

Seriously, try me. I've been doing 3d since 1995. I am not saying that as an ego trip but rather offering advice I wished I had 5 years ago.

No one is saying we should roll over and not hold NT up to some accountability but can you show me any 3d company, and I do mean any, where you could tell them to make "said feature" work... whichever way.

Have you ever tried criticizing Autodesk for certain problems in Max?

Alias for Maya?

Softimage for XSI, especially the surprise memory leaks. Awesome software.... I crash it alot.

When you write the companies about features or bugs they pretty much send you an auto response first and then, long after your project was delivered they get back to you and thats only if you have paid for the tech support which lasts a year at a time.

Newtek actually answer us on this forum personally. I have seen Jay and Chuck answer threads I didn't think they should have. Can you even tell me the name of any of the other companies software managers?

Name the company that somehow better handles these criticisms you have of Newtek.

You might perceive my post as being negative towards you but I honestly just want to offer any understanding I can of the current situation.

Intuition
02-29-2008, 12:14 PM
I don't think an immediate price jump to $1500 or $2,000 or whatever they would charge is the immediate answer. You cant' alienate all the users who have come to depend on the affordability of Lightwave over the years, especially the last several since they dropped their price to well below a grand.

What I do want to see however is for Newtek to grow and for Lightwave to be more respected in the 3D community at large. There's a lot of trash talk out there, and the worst part is, some of it, no, a lot of it is coming from former Lightwave users who were convinced that Lightwave was on it's way out, so they bailed.

I really want Newtek to consider starting to raise their prices, maybe just a couple hundred dollars at first, and then let the market blow it where it may from there. Why doesn't anyone respect Hash's animation master? It has great character animation tools and many great features. But it's a joke because it's a $300 program. I may not agree with the idea that cost equals quality, but I definately agree that the perception is out there to suggest just that. Get Lightwave at least above $1,000. Give yourself more money for development, hire a few new programmers (I haven't seen Newtek hiring developers for Lightwave for some time, at least on the careers page), and for God's sake, let's see more marketing for Lightwave!!

Oh one more thing, has the beta started yet....I'm feeling a bit impatient...

Total Agreement.

I mean, XSI has basic, for hobbyists, and their higher end features like dynamics and hair, are priced higher since that is probably where they put more of the money so they can see how many people need this or that and build their strategy around that.

wavemaster
02-29-2008, 12:15 PM
Did you ever hear me ask for any of your 3d advice? You do seem to sound like you are on some sort of ego trip!

MikeUnderwood
02-29-2008, 12:16 PM
I don't think an immediate price jump to $1500 or $2,000 or whatever they would charge is the immediate answer. You cant' alienate all the users who have come to depend on the affordability of Lightwave over the years, especially the last several since they dropped their price to well below a grand.

What I do want to see however is for Newtek to grow and for Lightwave to be more respected in the 3D community at large. There's a lot of trash talk out there, and the worst part is, some of it, no, a lot of it is coming from former Lightwave users who were convinced that Lightwave was on it's way out, so they bailed.

I really want Newtek to consider starting to raise their prices, maybe just a couple hundred dollars at first, and then let the market blow it where it may from there. Why doesn't anyone respect Hash's animation master? It has great character animation tools and many great features. But it's a joke because it's a $300 program. I may not agree with the idea that cost equals quality, but I definately agree that the perception is out there to suggest just that. Get Lightwave at least above $1,000. Give yourself more money for development, hire a few new programmers (I haven't seen Newtek hiring developers for Lightwave for some time, at least on the careers page), and for God's sake, let's see more marketing for Lightwave!!

Oh one more thing, has the beta started yet....I'm feeling a bit impatient...


Raising cost won't necessarily add revenue for extra programmers. Sure, they can gain money from the bigger studios, but they could also lose money from from hobbyist and freelance artist who can't afford that higher price point. Just a thought, cheers.

wacom
02-29-2008, 12:18 PM
I go back and forth about how passionate people seem to be about their 3D applications (make that stuff in general). I think that LW is great, but in this day an age to expect 1 application to be the end all if you do a variety of stuff is plain silly.

Hopefully you get what you pay for. What I mean by that is it's ridiculous to spend $40 on something with no features you like/use if you plan to make a living with it vs. $400 with a ton of features. At the same time it's also ridiculous to be attached to brand loyalty to the point that you waste a huge amount of time trying to do something in app X that app Y was made to do well.

That said, I don't like monopolies, and I understand the sentiment that privately held companies are something to be cherished in this day and age (NewTek being one).

On that note let's be clear here: There is only one real enemy #1 in those respects. We know the company and its practices. The other companies that have been often sited, blasted, and used as cannon fodder in CG debates, are MUCH smaller (often including any parent company) than enemy #1, make far fewer acquisitions, and, belive it or not "sky is falling LW fanatics", hold far fewer CG seats than LW.

Yes, that's right, LW still has quite a few seats out there, and most of them are warm even if they are a bit disgruntled.

I'm not pulling this out of thin air either- there have been studies of CG usership in the past and LW isn't the dog that people make it out to be. Houdini, modo, XSI?!? Blips on the radar in comparison- many in these terms aren't even in the rear view mirror of LW in terms of user base.

Which brings us to this: half of this ranting is all about consumer driven ego. Shame on us, you and the rest of em. Why is everyone always getting out the ruler on these boards? Swallow your pride and admit that while LW might have nice "hips" (renderer/particles), another application has nice "teeth" (CA).

Do you really care if the marketing says spiderman six was made with LW or Blender? Aren't we mature enough users to know about the dirty little marketing secrets that go on behind the scenes? What about the people who worked on the shots? Are they just robots? How many times have you seen shots of studios with people at their work stations using 1-4 different applications for different parts of a job?

Compared to LW I only find fanatics of an equally blind faith nature on the enemy #1 boards believe it or not (OK, blender too). I find most other boards/users open to the fact that in this day in age, if you are not intending to be a "hobbiest" (what ever that means) all your life, they make much more informed arguments to why X sucks and Y doesn't on certain accounts- and we're talking down to little details like how they code, work with certain kinds of data transfer, how open the SDK is, the shader language, the support materials, licensing, company tract record with releases, etc. etc.

The only reason many of them seem to be able to do this is because they've actually USED other applications and still do. While a LW user might see them as "whores" to the software giants, many of them are just trying to get the best looking pixels in the shortest amount of time no mater who makes the program or what its name, or how ever many movies have been used to make it.

On a side note: does everyone not realize that half the reason Maya is used so much has nothing to do with the over all tool set, simply the fact that it supports a LOT of reyes render engines that are the back bone of the movie industry?

DragonFist
02-29-2008, 12:30 PM
I think that it is madness to compare a $600 program to a $3000 + subscription fees program.

I like lightwave. I can do lots of things with it and I don't have to be a studio to do it.

I do want a good hair solution. I DO want greatly enhanced Character tools. I do think that promised modeler tools in layout should be brought to layout as it was promoted that way. I do think that the accuracy of the dynamics system should match what was promoted at the time of 9.0 pre-sales.

But I am also very tired of the incesent whining and claims of "being ripped off" that I keep seeing in these forums as of late.

Thing is while any one of us has had their moment frustration, there are only a few posters that do these ranting, apocalyptic doom of LW type posts (About five by very cursory inspection of memory). But they are loud and argue with anyone that disagrees and turn a thread into a mass of discent and quibbling. And as a result make it look like that are far more of them than there are.

I for one would mind seeing moderators issuing temp bans after someone has done this a couple of times and perma bans for the ones that just won't stop.

It isn't the fact that they have a criticism. It's the fact that they repeatly turn threads about excitement regarding Lightwave into threads that are painful to sift through to find the good data and create a negative impact on the forums and to a lesser degree, the development of the Lightwave. This is a Lightwave forum, not a free speech Lightwave/Lightwave user bashing zone. One can voice a criticism without implying impending doom or accusing the company of "ripping off" people or making personnal insults towards its users.

Anyhow, I've decided to expand my ignore list as I'm sure I'll have less sifting to do as a result. And reporting posts that are in violation of the forum rules. I hope others do the same.

kopperdrake
02-29-2008, 12:39 PM
Nice post Intuition.

I voted to pay more for LW in the recent pole on here, *if* the feature set grew to be worth it. I really hope NT are pulling the stops out to throw big features at us, so far in this 9 cycle I've not been disappointed. When LW 10 hits the scene, if it turns out to be the all-singing all-dancing daddy of LW then I will happily stump up more money for it than is currently being asked. I use it make a living, I need certain tools to remain competitive, and I like LightWave.

Lightwolf
02-29-2008, 12:41 PM
On a side note: does everyone not realize that half the reason Maya is used so much has nothing to do with the over all tool set, simply the fact that it supports a LOT of reyes render engines that are the back bone of the movie industry?
I'd say it is the flexbility of the tool set that can be a dangerous weapon in the right hands (of which there are very few). Even more dangerous in the wrong hands (more of those around ;) ).

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
02-29-2008, 12:42 PM
Now go buy me 150 render nodes of Mental ray at $600 a pop...
You need to switch your dealer ;) I've seen better deals for far less nodes...

Cheers,
Mike

colkai
02-29-2008, 12:43 PM
Na...I am good! I doupt you could advise me of much... by the sounds of your first post!
>> cough <<
>> splutter<<
Ahem, hello, EdenFX - pretty sure he could teach most folks here a thing or two!

vadermanchild
02-29-2008, 12:43 PM
END ALL thread?

Nope.

Lightwolf
02-29-2008, 12:45 PM
END ALL thread?

Fire away... erm, wait... shouldn't that be a machine gun and not a kitty?

Cheers,
Mike

Intuition
02-29-2008, 01:08 PM
You need to switch your dealer ;) I've seen better deals for far less nodes...

Cheers,
Mike

Did you add the 8.25% California tax? ;)

Naw but seriously, even if you could get 200 nodes for $15,000 it still says alot about where things hang up with features in other apps.

I only wish some of the other apps had Infinimap.. :( Love saving that RAM for other things instead of images. :thumbsup:

Intuition
02-29-2008, 01:09 PM
END ALL thread?

Nope.

Its not that the glass is half full or half empty but rather that it is filled with BEER.!!!

Lightwolf
02-29-2008, 01:17 PM
Did you add the 8.25% California tax? ;)
No, 19% VAT :D

Cheers,
Mike

hrgiger
02-29-2008, 01:32 PM
Raising cost won't necessarily add revenue for extra programmers. Sure, they can gain money from the bigger studios, but they could also lose money from from hobbyist and freelance artist who can't afford that higher price point. Just a thought, cheers.

Not sure I agree. I think it's a complete balancing act between the state of the software, the market (competition) and price. I think if Newtek can improve character animation and modeler, work more on integration and inter-communication within the program, you'll have an application that will justify a higher cost. I think they're doing well now by the way. I have no problem having my upgrade fee increased by $100-$400, especially if they address the issues that are important to me. Namely character animation related items. And I'm just a hobbyist and don't have a lot of disposable income. But it's the thing that I love doing and one way or another, I'll find a way to upgrade if I really want to. I have three times already and most of the times it was tight. But it's worth it to me.

Right now, other then XSI foundation (which is lacking some of the higher end features of it's brethren and is in that sense, limited from possibly ever attaining those features), Lightwave is one of the most inexpensive applications out there, at least that make the news anyway. The next one up is C4D at I think around $1500 the last time I checked, and that's before you buy any of their "add-on" modules. The rest go up from there. I think Lightwave has a little room to justify a cost increase just from a market standpoint alone.

Intuition
02-29-2008, 01:33 PM
No, 19% VAT :D

Cheers,
Mike


WHAT? ROFL!!! :D :tongue:

Your making me feel better about being in tax happy California all the time Michael. :thumbsup:

mattclary
02-29-2008, 01:44 PM
I am not agree at all, and I enjoy using LW... But I see a bunch of delusional people in hear that are willing to rollover and allow themselves to be ripped off by a company, smiling and praising them along the way!


If you think you are being ripped off, why are you still using it, Mr. I-Just-Joined-The-Forums this month? Go buy the software that fulfills your needs and quit whining.

wavemaster
02-29-2008, 01:47 PM
Sorry Mr. 400,000,000 poster, get a life! I am sure I have been using LW longer then you! Typical NT forum post...

iconoclasty
02-29-2008, 01:49 PM
Well you certainly haven't been part of the community longer. Then again, you're not really adding to the community right now either.

Lightwolf
02-29-2008, 01:51 PM
Your making me feel better about being in tax happy California all the time Michael. :thumbsup:
I aim to please... and I hope the 8.25% are deductible like the 19% are over here as well...

Cheers,
Mike

wavemaster
02-29-2008, 01:57 PM
From what I see... It seems like a bunch of people that have legitimate complaints about LW, and as soon as they voice them, they are personally attacked by the fan boy club... So far, I rarely see the people with problems with LW get personal, just the defenders of all that is LW!

RonGC
02-29-2008, 02:27 PM
I am not agree at all, and I enjoy using LW... But I see a bunch of delusional people in hear that are willing to rollover and allow themselves to be ripped off by a company, smiling and praising them along the way!


Its not that people have legitimate concerns about the software that gets them jumped on, its how they phrase their statements. they cant be impolite and derisive, rude and insulting to other users and expect those same people to treat you nice.

Its the age old golden rule, treat others as you your self wish to be treated.

Way to much personal bashing being done on these forums, for what end result, loss of respect by others?

It is steadily becoming a major chore to read through threads on this forum, sometimes we just want a little peace and quiet and a chance to enjoy some good times in a thread, without it descending into the seventh level of hell.

Some people can just suck all the joy out of a room just by showing up, is this the reputation one needs or wants for themselves, i would hope not.

This is not a personal attack on individuals, just a view on personalities. If anyone takes this personal and wants to fight about my statements count me out:stop:

Ron

Lightwolf
02-29-2008, 02:31 PM
If anyone takes this personal and wants to fight about my statements count me out:stop:
Hey Ron,
you...


...


... hm, you're absolutely right. Darn, there goes another opportunity for discussion ;)

Cheers,
Mike

DragonFist
02-29-2008, 02:36 PM
I just made a quick run through and added a mere two persons to my ignore list and it is amazing how much shorter some of these threads seemed to become after that.

*Pete*
02-29-2008, 02:42 PM
If you think you are being ripped off, why are you still using it, Mr. I-Just-Joined-The-Forums this month? Go buy the software that fulfills your needs and quit whining.

my bet is that Wavemaster is banned of the forums previously for behaviour problems and is now posting only to add voice to the critisism for personal reasons.

any quess of who he might be? ;)

Hopper
02-29-2008, 02:43 PM
Wait a minute ... why is it that any threads with wavemaster posts don't have any by Stooch and any threads with Stooch's posts don't have any by wavemaster ...

Aaaaaaaahhhh you almost had us goin' for a minute there Stooch... C'mon .. fess up...We know that's you just gettin' people all riled up - just poking at people to get a rise out of 'em without actually making any sense. You're such a kidder. Now go drink your beer! :D I just knew that was you. No one would really make that many idiotic posts in one thread.

hrgiger
02-29-2008, 02:45 PM
Sorry Mr. 400,000,000 poster, get a life! I am sure I have been using LW longer then you! Typical NT forum post...

Sorry Mr. 71 poster, but what's your point? Typical NT lurker. Never says anything but when they finally do, they don't actually have a thing to say.

*Pete*
02-29-2008, 02:45 PM
not stooch!!..its Oldteker!!

or thisguy/thatdude..what ever, he had a fair share of names and bans....

hrgiger
02-29-2008, 02:47 PM
No, who was that other guy that used to be around a lot a few years ago that constantly baited people? I miss that guy, I just wish I could remember his username. A wooden nickel to the person who knows who I'm talking about.

Hopper
02-29-2008, 02:47 PM
You mean those posts were serious? ROFL Wow. I thought it was sarcasm poorly delivered.

meatycheesyboy
02-29-2008, 02:53 PM
Color me confused but this whole situation doesn't seem too complicated to me.

NT offers a product, consumers buy the product, if NT ceases to provide what consumers want then they go somewhere alse and NT goes out of business. If NT offers improvments that consumers want then their customer base grows and NT thrives. They know this, it's not like they're purposely trying to sabotage themselves.

So, what it boils down to is this, if anyone is unhappy with the way NT is progressing then they have the right to leave at any time. If they feel like their investment (time and money) is too great and they want to stick around then maybe they stick around for awhile to see how things progress in the short term. If they think LW is doing great then they stick around for a long while.

Extreme brand loyalty or extreme amounts of complaining do nothing to change the situation above.

Seems pretty basic to me.

Now let's take it a step further and apply it to myself. I've been using LW since 5.0. It has had it's ups and downs but at this moment in time it does everything I personally need it to do. So, I'll be sticking around. I would like to get into character animation soon, so I'll probably seriously start looking at XSI Foundation when the time comes. If in the intervening time, LW makes strides in the CA department or if I try to do work in it and find that I can live with it then I'll stick with it. If not, then I go. If you're not extremely averse to learning new things then I don't see the problem, personally.

MrWyatt
02-29-2008, 02:54 PM
not stooch!!..its Oldteker!!

or thisguy/thatdude..what ever, he had a fair share of names and bans....

I'd rather say it is our old friend bryphi :screwy:

Steamthrower
02-29-2008, 02:55 PM
I'm betting this is a new reincarnation of Oldteker, by server proxy!

HR, you wouldn't be talking about oDDity. would you? Naw...

*Pete*
02-29-2008, 03:00 PM
I'd rather say it is our old friend bryphi :screwy:

I wasnt actively taking part of the forum when he went under that name..

hrgiger
02-29-2008, 03:03 PM
HR, you wouldn't be talking about oDDity. would you? Naw...

No, not oDDity. This guy made no sense most of the time and all his posts were negative. He was awesome. It was a short name I think. like 4 or 5 letters.

beverins
02-29-2008, 03:04 PM
Well, since Newtek wouldn't (nor should they) divulge their economic reasons for making LW lower priced... we can only assume things.

The thing is that if they were to price LW back to its former price of roughly anywhere from $1000 to $3000, would the price increase offset the amount of people who just wouldn't be able to afford it anymore?

One of the things to think about is that Lightwave still does need a bevy of plugins to address its shortcomings. 9.5 seems to address rendering speed (from what I have seen posted so far) but let's be honest... Fprime is pretty much a must-have. How much is Fprime? $500? So LW costs $600, plus $500 = $1100. Granted, Newtek isn't seeing that extra $500, Worley is. But the End User who is writing the Purchase Order, or sighing at the credit-card bill is still seeing $1100.

Now, if we raise the price of Lightwave to $1100, as an example, we still need to buy Fprime. It now becomes $1600. Same for raising Lightwave to $3000. We still need to buy Fprime, making it $3500. At that point, people begin to look at other packages which may - or may not - require the purchase of a plugin to for more money to be useful for their production.

Add in other plugins like HD Instance. Or Dynamite. Or Maestro. etc. As much as I love Lightwave, and as much as I believe that it is as capable as any other software, I do have to admit that LW has some plugins that exceed "nice to have" but are indeed Must Haves which increase the price of the software in the end. So...

Also, maybe Newtek is making more money with a lower price poiint than a higher one?

jin choung
02-29-2008, 03:30 PM
Yes blender has all these general capabilities but I would never choose it over realflow for fluids or zbrush for sculpting, painting or over modo for modeling, over XSI for dynamics, cloth, and character animation, over Lightwave the endall fasto F-Prime/Lwave combo for from building a scene from scratch to final renders for quick delivery with great quality speed or even the 2nd to none in camera motion blur or DoF, over maya for particle sim and particle rendering or its blastcode, over 3d max for its fumeFX and the F$%ck$ing ridiculously awesome Vray.

Yes, blender, ahem, neat its free. great...neat.. good, now come over to Edenfx and show us some production ready stuff.


http://peach.blender.org/index.php/media-gallery/
http://peach.blender.org/index.php/grooming-time/
http://peach.blender.org/index.php/nathan-demos-rigging-rinky-the-squirrel/
http://peach.blender.org/index.php/2007/12/

some videos are in ogg so need vlc or something... most are youtube....

jin

GraphXs
02-29-2008, 04:04 PM
Why cry over a product thatís not complete yet. Throughout the dev cycle Newtek has given us a lot of great new features. (Nodeís, New shaders, New Cameraís, Faster GI, New Lights, new animation tools (sticky is cool) Some UI modifications, CCís more Open GL, etc, etc, Fprime updates) In fact it has given us more feature updates that are free over any of the competition, which you have to pay for. LW doesnít have to be the end-all solution, but if you need it to be it does cover all aspects of 3D, it is a full package for a great price! Think about what Newtek has given us for $800 dollars or $400 upgrade price and they arenít even done yet. Also with 9.5 on itís way we will be getting some new Animation tools, export tools, and UV tools. The FiberFX is just a plus and they never mention a hair solution for the 9 cycle! We also got (depending on the time of purchase) Vue 5 and LW Cad, all for the price of one or two plug-ins.

This is turning out to be the best version of LW ever! After 9.5 the only things I think that are missing are instancing, tool consolidation, and maybe fixing CCís and squashing as much bugs as possible. The only thing we donít get is editing meshes in layout. Modeler is bloated but not broken and IMO is still a great modeling tool.

Go Newtek!:lwicon: :thumbsup:

Ztreem
02-29-2008, 04:30 PM
WHAT? ROFL!!! :D :tongue:

Your making me feel better about being in tax happy California all the time Michael. :thumbsup:

I can make you even happier, here in Sweden we have a TAX at 25%.

3D|Dave
02-29-2008, 05:11 PM
Why cry over a product thatís not complete yet. Throughout the dev cycle Newtek has given us a lot of great new features. (Nodeís, New shaders, New Cameraís, Faster GI, New Lights, new animation tools (sticky is cool) Some UI modifications, CCís more Open GL, etc, etc, Fprime updates) In fact it has given us more feature updates that are free over any of the competition, which you have to pay for. LW doesnít have to be the end-all solution, but if you need it to be it does cover all aspects of 3D, it is a full package for a great price! Think about what Newtek has given us for $800 dollars or $400 upgrade price and they arenít even done yet. Also with 9.5 on itís way we will be getting some new Animation tools, export tools, and UV tools. The FiberFX is just a plus and they never mention a hair solution for the 9 cycle! We also got (depending on the time of purchase) Vue 5 and LW Cad, all for the price of one or two plug-ins.

This is turning out to be the best version of LW ever! After 9.5 the only things I think that are missing are instancing, tool consolidation, and maybe fixing CCís and squashing as much bugs as possible. The only thing we donít get is editing meshes in layout. Modeler is bloated but not broken and IMO is still a great modeling tool.

Go Newtek!:lwicon: :thumbsup:

Yea, Yea, Yea, Newtek has been awesome at giving us other stuff instead of the needed CA tools, superfast OpenGL, network rendering managment, and well you know the rest of the list.

wacom
02-29-2008, 05:16 PM
Did you add the 8.25% California tax? ;)

Naw but seriously, even if you could get 200 nodes for $15,000 it still says alot about where things hang up with features in other apps.

I only wish some of the other apps had Infinimap.. :( Love saving that RAM for other things instead of images. :thumbsup:

Infinimap, like many LW plugs, fills some holes...but...

In mr and other render engines (renderman compliant renderers) they use them- pyramidal maps etc. What do you think the mr map file type .map is? I've got a batch script on my desktop just for them- drag and convert. OR you can have it do it on the fly each time...

While there are some suck things about mr, one thing it does well is know how to kick out a render with little ram laying around...pending you're willing to read three pages or more of a help file...

wacom
02-29-2008, 05:21 PM
No, who was that other guy that used to be around a lot a few years ago that constantly baited people? I miss that guy, I just wish I could remember his username. A wooden nickel to the person who knows who I'm talking about.

Are you talking about...I think it was...Cman or something?

wacom
02-29-2008, 05:23 PM
I can make you even happier, here in Sweden we have a TAX at 25%.

Lets not get into this- your taxes GO places besides MEGA CORP. and K streets wallets!

I need to learn to condense posts...can't get use to these time limits and such...

bobakabob
02-29-2008, 05:49 PM
No, who was that other guy that used to be around a lot a few years ago that constantly baited people? I miss that guy, I just wish I could remember his username. A wooden nickel to the person who knows who I'm talking about.

CIM?

bobakabob
02-29-2008, 05:52 PM
http://peach.blender.org/index.php/media-gallery/
http://peach.blender.org/index.php/grooming-time/
http://peach.blender.org/index.php/nathan-demos-rigging-rinky-the-squirrel/
http://peach.blender.org/index.php/2007/12/

some videos are in ogg so need vlc or something... most are youtube....

jin

Impressive. But then you have to contend with that remarkable interface.

Red_Oddity
02-29-2008, 05:53 PM
Infinimap, like many LW plugs, fills some holes...but...

In mr and other render engines (renderman compliant renderers) they use them- pyramidal maps etc. What do you think the mr map file type .map is? I've got a batch script on my desktop just for them- drag and convert. OR you can have it do it on the fly each time...

While there are some suck things about mr, one thing it does well is know how to kick out a render with little ram laying around...pending you're willing to read three pages or more of a help file...
3 pages just for how to use .map files and creating them as i remember correctly...
And about 200 pages more of 'information' even Einstein would be scratching his head over, and they expect us artists to 'get it'.

Also, kudos to Newtek for their willingness and support to help without a subscription fee and their good sales team for always getting back to you within a day, no matter how lowly the investment ou are willing to make.
Try that with an Autodesk authorized dealer, these guys don't seem to be impressed when you are not going to do more than a 6 figure order (seriously, i mean this, we placed an order for over 40000 euros for their mediocre buggy software, and we had to call THEM back 3 times before they actually starting moving their butts to get the order going, arrogant a$$holes.)

Anyway, i guess this doesn't get said often enough, but i respect Newtek for keeping it going (i already get bored when i have to program more than a week on a plugin, imagine doing this for more than 2 years while a large group of people keep complaining you don't do enough.)

jin choung
02-29-2008, 05:56 PM
bob,

i just knew someone would chime in with that predictable chestnut.

congratulations. you're the winner. pleased?
---------------------------------------------

in context - the original poster made the contention that blender is not ready for the prime time.

that, in my estimation, is incorrect.

i have provided proof.

you have a problem with any of the above?

jin

bobakabob
02-29-2008, 06:00 PM
bob,

i just knew someone would chime in with that predictable chestnut.

congratulations. you're the winner. pleased?
---------------------------------------------

in context - the original poster made the contention that blender is not ready for the prime time.

that, in my estimation, is incorrect.

i have provided proof.

you have a problem with any of the above?

jin

Does Blender really play a significant part in your work? I'm intrigued as the 'old chestnut' of the interface has always been beyond comprehension. Seriously, no irony, I admire your stamina :)

j__
02-29-2008, 06:07 PM
Wavemaster:

I am not agree at all, and I enjoy using LW... But I see a bunch of delusional people in hear that are willing to rollover and allow themselves to be ripped off by a company, smiling and praising them along the way!

Difficult to disagree with the thrust of that.

Intuition: all very fair points:

"I understand all the criticism, meaning I have even complained a bit myself, and Newtek wishes they could meet it, but at a certain point you have to move forward in your own situation."

Unless I'm missing a bunch of other threads, there's been extraordinarily little criticism, that's the thing, and what there has been, has been direct and brief, and certainly nothing I've seen trying to 'derail threads' as one person alleged, however I agree with your main point fully. But its not difficult to see that despite the confusion, many users really like LW and want LW to do these things, and rather than reaching for XSI or Blender would really like to do them in LW itself if they could.

And yes it may not really be fair to directly compare Blender to Lightwave, but from what I gather it really has it's own challenges in its code base anyway but is nonetheless delivering.

It depends where Blender goes in the future, 95%+ of 3d can be done in Blender, because 100% of the real fundamentals are there, that's just the bottom line, and this creates a very new environment for those commercial vendors who, whether its fair or unfair, still can't get some of these fundamentals in place.

"What I am saying is that everyone, including Newtek wants exactly what the complainers want"

I believe there is very much an awareness about these issues at NT, and I'd love to believe that there was a clear path on them I really would, but at the same time you have a track record, and there is a tremendous effort by NT to focus on anything but that in the 9 cycle. And then if there is some major 'core changes' down the line, presumably these could break a lot of motion and deformation stuff NewTek are throwing at LW now.

With this in mind I think there is a possibility that some of the things we are talking are in danger of just slipping off the table pretty much permanently, not entirely because of resource and funding reasons, apparently there are funds enough to be endlessly 'perfecting GI' and buying hair solutions cool as they may be) , but also (and/or) because NT are able to coast along just enough without them pretty much because of the kind of the well-known cult-like atmosphere surrounding LW that Wavemaster speaks about, that not only makes honest discussion a problem, it's also difficult to see the incentive for NT to change anything in that setting.

htriger:

good points, and I don't know if throwing money at the problem will help either, as none of LW's deep problems were addressed when it was more expensive, although it is a consideration. Of course, the 3d market has changed dramatically over the years, and things that were once 'high end' just aren't anymore, but in LW's case it's not the 'high end' that is suffering.

"What I do want to see however is for Newtek to grow and for Lightwave to be more respected in the 3D community at large. There's a lot of trash talk out there, and the worst part is, some of it, no, a lot of it is coming from former Lightwave users who were convinced that Lightwave was on it's way out, so they bailed."

A number of people I know speak about LW in scathing terms, not because they irrationally want to hate LW but because they really like a huge amount of LW, want it to be the 'complete solution' it bills itself as, and feel frustrated and let down that NT have dropped the ball really quite badly in some key areas, and again have probably lost faith that those things will ever be corrected.

later

hrgiger
02-29-2008, 06:22 PM
Wacom was a close guess with Cman (huh, long and hard and filled with Cman) but Bobakabob wins the Wooden Nickel!! Yeah, CIM. Haven't thought of him for a while...

jin choung
02-29-2008, 06:25 PM
Does Blender really play a significant part in your work? I'm intrigued as the 'old chestnut' of the interface has always been beyond comprehension. Seriously, no irony, I admire your stamina :)

no it does not play a significant role in my work but neither does lightwave.

as for the interface, i don't like it much either. i admire it and most of it is very well thought out. but it has no relationship to existing programs and so it's awkward to use. but it is SELF-CONSISTENT. and that is more than can be said of many apps.

but as i say elsewhere, the entire interface is getting a fully customizable total tear down. (v2.5)

and again, as for usability. look at what can be done with it. look at the movie clips. in terms of rigging, character set up and manipulation, animation tests, render fur.

nothing about that is not prime-time now. and so again, that is my response to the op.

jin

DragonFist
02-29-2008, 06:30 PM
there's been extraordinarily little criticism, that's the thing, and what there has been, has been direct and brief, and certainly nothing I've seen trying to 'derail threads' as one person alleged

You must have missed the 1000+ post thread originally about showing some of 9.5's features and turned into something completely different.

It is currently about kittens because NT had to move the pics to a fully moderately thread so they wouldn't be derailed by "comments".

Or didn't you see that one?

Sorry, for the 'tude, but one doesn't have to look far for derailed threads in the past week and I can't believe that you didn't see them. I'm pretty sure you posted in them (though not 100% certain).

Anyhow none of us are talking about direct and brief communication of opinions or criticisms. Intuition and others have voiced some of the weaknesses of Lightwave and its development. But I don't see anyone complaining about his criticisms. I am certainly not.

So, one has to ask. Why is there so much backflash at these other "criticisms" and absolutely none at such examples?

My answer: Well-stated and logical (not comparing apples and rocks) and said without intention of bashing or insulting anyone.

bobakabob
02-29-2008, 06:32 PM
Wacom was a close guess with Cman (huh, long and hard and filled with Cman) but Bobakabob wins the Wooden Nickel!! Yeah, CIM. Haven't thought of him for a while...

Heh, I'm PMing my address. Whatever happened to CIM? I always thought he was a human posing as a martian :)

bobakabob
02-29-2008, 06:45 PM
no it does not play a significant role in my work but neither does lightwave.

as for the interface, i don't like it much either. i admire it and most of it is very well thought out. but it has no relationship to existing programs and so it's awkward to use. but it is SELF-CONSISTENT. and that is more than can be said of many apps.

but as i say elsewhere, the entire interface is getting a fully customizable total tear down. (v2.5)

and again, as for usability. look at what can be done with it. look at the movie clips. in terms of rigging, character set up and manipulation, animation tests, render fur.

nothing about that is not prime-time now. and so again, that is my response to the op.

jin

No doubt Blender artists have produced great work. Also true the developers are innovating and working on a new (Modo inspired!) interface.

It's no bad thing Lightwave has an open source app breathing down its neck... but then why are we here and not the Blender forum?

Drocket
02-29-2008, 07:21 PM
DragonFist what happens when you add someone to your ignore list? Does it hide any messages from them so you never see their messages?

I don't normally post on the forums unless I can add something to the topic but I read a lot and find there are a number of people here who are very helpful and go out of their way to help others and there are other people who seem to take pleasure in arguing a point whether it is valid or not, I guess it takes all sorts to make the world go around.

I thought these were NewTek forums so shouldn't we be discussing their products rather than guessing how they run their business, unless you have worked for them you can only guess. If you have an issue that only NewTek can resolve then let NewTek know via official channels. If your issue is something someone on the forum can help you with then great, ask away.

I guess someone might label me a fanboy for being enthusiastic about LW, thats okay, but I'm not a fanboy of any product. I honestly like using LW and think it has improved so much since I bought version 9.0, sure, it has issues like all software but you purchase something because it meets your needs now not because you can make use of it in six months once it has been updated. If it doesn't fit your needs find something else that does.

It is just sad how the topics get dragged this way and that because of a small minority, I was very disappointed how the 9.5 discussions degraded from excitement to (for me) agony to read whether it be over a small semantics such as whether it is a free upgrade or paid upgrade or whether someone is grateful for the release or not, pretty silly really.

I feel sad for the people at NewTek, it seems they are between a rock and a hard place, they can't do right by everyone. After being a developer for too long I feel for the dev staff, I am sure some of them read these messages and leave down hearted, I have a thick skin but some of the messages would leave me feeling down.

Anyway, I can't wait to try 9.5, looking forward to all the cool new things to play with so with that I am going back to do some more training :) Yipee :)

Have fun folks.

Drocket.

jin choung
02-29-2008, 07:33 PM
No doubt Blender artists have produced great work. Also true the developers are innovating and working on a new (Modo inspired!) interface.

It's no bad thing Lightwave has an open source app breathing down its neck... but then why are we here and not the Blender forum?

who says i'm not on the blender forum? as for why "we" are here, i suppose years and dollars and study invested counts for something. and fact is, people stick to things not by virtue of quality necessarily but by virtue of mere familiarity.

if newtek is smart, it would indeed consider blender to be "breathing down its neck". it is. used to be they only to worry about being crushed from above... now they gotta look out from being engulfed from below.

one of lightwave's prime selling points is price/performance. that's the niche. can't be touched by maya or xsi or c4d (again, i do not count lite versions... of anything... never have, never will - and happy to see adobe has finally come around to my way of thinking). if you want a full featured 3d program that does everything that can still be used in multiapp environments, there's probably no other way to go except lw. and as i have always maintained, if you count in COST OF MAINTENANCE and not just buy in price, lw is the ONLY app that is currently affordable to an individual imo.

but if blender's usability goes up a BIT (i'm talkin' a tiny bit here), i am in complete disagreement with the op that it will indeed be a credible and in fact big threat. bigger threat to lw than maya.

jin

wacom
02-29-2008, 08:02 PM
3 pages just for how to use .map files and creating them as i remember correctly...
And about 200 pages more of 'information' even Einstein would be scratching his head over, and they expect us artists to 'get it'.



I can't even add right half the time- no joke. If I can get my "thick" artist head half way around it enough to use it then these things can't be too hard.

It's not like you HAVE to use them...but you know...when you have to render even a simple tabloid sized render @ 300dpi in a given amount of time, these things are not just "for eggheads" they are kind of a deal breaker if you don't learn to use them (AKA no render for you). While I love getting more RAM all the time, I keep pushing things (because we all like to and clients do too)...moores law in a sense for 3D artists...so its all relative. So learning these things are kind of needed- regardless of what you use.

People freak out about things like "bsp-tree" when, even in mr, they give you an artist friendly fairly good way of ball parking it VISUALLY. So should this feature not be exposed? You don't need to 100% understand how everything works to at least make some use of it.

I mean...you have to read quite a bit of info just to semi-properly use just about any render engine- lightwave included. I was simply saying that, unlike what the poster said, mr did infact, along with other render engines, have that feature (pyramidal images etc.) and it was fairly easy to use. I can check a radio button...and I can drag an image file on to a batch file and then reload it with a different extension. Does that take genius?

Sorry, but...I'm so sick of the dumb artist excuse- that kind of thinking didn't fly even back in dark ages so why should it now? Artists creatively find ways to use and combine the tools they learn to know, not the ones that exist in a self inflicted vacuum.

But yeah...I should just be able to use every slow raytrace function in the book, and all the newest ones...and all those expensive shaders...and any number of polygons...at any resolution...and just have it render it as soon as I hit save...cause I'm a stupid artist... :compbeati

Face it- 3D, even in Lightwave, is complicated- no bones about it. It takes commitment, perseverance and a high level of curiosity to keep getting better at 3D- just like oil painting or playing an instrument or any endeavor that is worth while.

BTW- I think they are doing great things with 9.5 given where 8 and 7 were!

wacom
02-29-2008, 08:10 PM
Wacom was a close guess with Cman (huh, long and hard and filled with Cman) but Bobakabob wins the Wooden Nickel!! Yeah, CIM. Haven't thought of him for a while...

That was the dude! CIM...so bad you almost would think he was a disgruntled X NewTek employee...

Speedmonk42
02-29-2008, 09:37 PM
No pictures of cats yet.

Very disappointed.

rakker16mm
02-29-2008, 09:42 PM
Basically as the old saying goes, a good craftsman never blames the tools.

The chisel is dull? OK, You sharppen it. If it can't be sharpened check the stone. If it isn't the stone, get a new chisel. When you are getting ready to buy that new chisel make sure it is the one you really want, because when you get back to the workshop.... that is the chisel you have to work with.

I mean his isn't really rocket science is it? The program can either do what you need it to or it can't. The rest is all up to you.

Like it = Buy it

Don't like = Don't buy it

Want it for free = Blender

Willing to pay $600-800 = Lightwave

Want to pay a lot = Just about everything els

Just remember this... ranting won't sharpen the chisel.

Netvudu
02-29-2008, 09:49 PM
Man I need to make a general txt file I can copy and paste arguments into when these love/hate threads come up.
...
I use it along with all the other 3d apps routinely.

I don't think any of the apps are perfect. I use them all except blender (although I have used blender alot I don't use it routinely anymore) and houdini , which will gets its chance later in 08 or early 09.
.

Well, when you go for Houdini (you wonīt regret it) make your life easier for yourself knowing one mad guy (i.e. me) created a script for exporting the camera and object transforms animation from LW to Houdini.

There are a few more LW users around Houdini forums. Not really a huge proportion but we are stylish :D

DragonFist
02-29-2008, 10:12 PM
DragonFist what happens when you add someone to your ignore list? Does it hide any messages from them so you never see their messages?


It hides the post but does tell you "So-and-So posted but is on your ignore list" as a placeholder.

Unfortunately, if someone else quotes them, that isn't hidden, but you still miss out a on a lot of the venom.

Upper Left hand corner in the forum menu. The link is "User CP". Then near the bottom left is a link for editing both buddy and ignore lists.

Hope that helps.

Best,

Shawn

Drocket
02-29-2008, 10:25 PM
Thanks Shawn, it sure does help :)

animotion
02-29-2008, 11:10 PM
Thanks, I will be using that feature.

Defiance
02-29-2008, 11:17 PM
Newtek actually answer us on this forum personally. I have seen Jay and Chuck answer threads I didn't think they should have. Can you even tell me the name of any of the other companies software managers?


I think you'll find Side Effects has a similar set up going on. The developers and support staff read and post to their forums regularly (and yeah, I know their names; I've met most of the company in person). There are other things they do on the customer support side that you'll notice and appreciate if you're a customer. One of the cool things about the Houdini development process is that new builds are available often (daily, even), as bugs and little features are added. It's kind of like getting nightly builds in open source projects. They also have production builds that are more stable but released less often.

Intuition
02-29-2008, 11:39 PM
Thats good to hear Defiance.

Actually I chat with the Luxology guys alot as well. I just might jump over to houdini sooner then.

I guess I started this thread because even I complained a bit back in 2004-2005 and eventually tried other apps and was rewarded for doing so and in the meantime Lightwave has gotten better as well so now coming to using Lightwave doesn't furstrate me anymore since I come to it to use it for its strengths and it changes my perception of it as opposed to back when I used to complain about the GI engine all the time before the 9.2 release.

I feel that people looking for things not found in Lightwave could be rewarded just by spending the time they would be complaining learning something new as I did and have enjoyed the process. Then in the meantime while you are busy learning new stuff Lightwave gets new things like the fur and further GI improvements and Bone features we are about to see.

Else one just sit and bang his/her head against a wall.

We just did some more great things in XSI for the Life after people show...

Like the collapsing Space needle....

.... and yet they were rendered in Lightwave 9.3 because it allowed us to use our whole render farm (unlimited nodes) in the time frame we had.

http://www.history.com/minisites/life_after_people/

It is this workflow I am used to now. Not being stuck in one app. I guess that could sound a little lame since it seems like Eden FX would just buy me all this neat software but I assure you I have bought all my own copies to drive before integrating them into the Eden pipeline.

firstsingle
02-29-2008, 11:39 PM
:thumbsdow
Another bull crap thread!!!
When NT was selling LW 9.0, if they would have said to all of us... these are features that we plan on giving you by the end of the 9.x cycle, but we are not going to be able to deliver on them because are software is to cheap.

Then your post might make a 1% of sense!!!

Plus I see a lot of talk in there about the way things used to be! It is present time now!

IMHO. There is nothing that can stop you from creating great art.
Period.

It's not Newtek's fault if you haven't the talent to deliver great works.
I don't hear anyone with effects work in films complaining that the software prevented them from assisting the director in telling his story.

Lightwave probably has all the tools you need to do whatever you dream.

Dream it. Build it. Share it.

Go ahead, Make a scene!

Stooch
02-29-2008, 11:40 PM
Where the hell is Stooch when you need him? Get in here Stooch! We need your "I don't care if I made you angry" attutide. :thumbsup:


HAHAH! I am still here, not caring as usual.

Yeah i cant really say anything that tops the original post. Its just common sense, so there isnt much to say other than agreeing with it.

I dont feel that newtek ripped me off, it has paid itself off MANY times over. Ii would give you all a factor but i dont want to brag any more than I am (and im talking about the 4.0+ pricing here). :D

Sure there are problems that pop up with LW and I have been resorting to other apps, especially when clients buy them for me, very often I work in other studios and will use whatever is placed in front of me. Most of the features that exist in other apps can be generally faked or replicated in LW. This often requires a bit more effort but in the end this gives me the ability to pickup any application and hit the ground running, I have so many ideas on how to approach any problem that there is never a pause to scratch my head. Thats why LW guys are renowned for being THE generalist crowd, they are used for working around problems when the **** hits the fan.

fact is, EVERY reasonable professional wants his tool to be as sharp as possible, but in the end there are lots of tools available. A PRO WILL JUST USE THE BEST TOOL instead of waiting for the current one to the fixed. While some people are moaning and bitching, ill be content with raking in the cash. :) When I consider that even the cheapest daily rate project that I have quoted can pay for LW9 in 1-2 days of my time, trying to argue about pricing or not getting enough for the money is kind of ridiculous. Of course someone will always quip that not all of us are made of money, well sitting here and bitching isnt making you richer either.

of course there are people who will inevitably assume that im insulting them but... i dont care :) Its usually the insecure whiny types that I dont particularly like anyway :)

business i not a place for emotions, just get over it like the rest of us, nothing will make NT magically speed up their development... (other then $$$ of course)

Intuition
02-29-2008, 11:46 PM
No matter what anyone thinks you HAVE to LOVE Stooch's Avatar.

It cracks me up everytime.

Stooch
03-01-2008, 12:00 AM
oh and one thing to add. there is nothing special about my daily rate, im not bragging here about my uber skills or anything - my rates are industry standard so anyone in the business should be in the same boat. LW still paid for itself many times over so - for that i am deeply thankful. Thanks NT! thanks for helping me buy all the toys and have a nice, enjoyable and fun life. Always having fun at work and not regretting it every day. 3D will probably not make me a millionaire but its a fulfilling existence, one that keeps the mind sharp and is better than being a janitor.

I will always recommend LW to any places that hires my services and support this software for the foreseeable future. we have history together. :)

oh and NT please extebd the damn edit limit for the love of god.

nanaboso
03-01-2008, 12:34 AM
Why is it that almost all the threads nowadays has a huge section where Jin explains why he is right and everybody else is wrong? They are entiteled to have their opinions as long as they realise that his right and they are wrong.
And I was under the impression that wavemaster bought into LW at vs.9, but obviously he's been using it far longer than that.
Being a hobbyist using LW since version 4 on the Amiga, I'm happy with the developement of LW nowadays. It has been far worse earlier, so complaining now is not for me. Not that I've been complaining much before either.

Stooch
03-01-2008, 12:38 AM
I know and have worked with people that just cannot be happy with anything in life. Real downers that are painful to be around. so i think for some people it goes beyond software.

i think everyone can have a bad day and complain. thats reasonable, but sometimes you just have to sit back and take a look at all the things we take for granted.

jin choung
03-01-2008, 12:44 AM
Why is it that almost all the threads nowadays has a huge section where Jin explains why he is right and everybody else is wrong? They are entiteled to have their opinions as long as they realise that his right and they are wrong.
And I was under the impression that wavemaster bought into LW at vs.9, but obviously he's been using it far longer than that.
Being a hobbyist using LW since version 4 on the Amiga, I'm happy with the developement of LW nowadays. It has been far worse earlier, so complaining now is not for me. Not that I've been complaining much before either.

not everyone. just the cult of newtek or the fanboys or whatever they want to call themselves. just cuz us gadflys don't group up and gang up like them don't mean we don't exist in number.

because i have 20 people telling me to shut up and that i'm wrong to say anything and that indeed they cannot tolerate the difference i present. and if 20 people send out an invitation, that's 20 responses i have to make.

LIKE YOURS! thanks for playing! welcome to becoming part of the problem! thanks!

hey, and sweet bliss is just an ignore button away. seriously, won't hurt my feelings an ounce. do it. you know you want to.

jin

Lightwolf
03-01-2008, 04:11 AM
In mr and other render engines (renderman compliant renderers) they use them- pyramidal maps etc. What do you think the mr map file type .map is? I've got a batch script on my desktop just for them- drag and convert. OR you can have it do it on the fly each time...
Surprisingly we get more and more requests from users of those other renderers to port. (I won't got into technicalities as to why it makes sense... but it does).

Cheers,
Mike

lardbros
03-01-2008, 04:43 AM
From what I see... It seems like a bunch of people that have legitimate complaints about LW, and as soon as they voice them, they are personally attacked by the fan boy club... So far, I rarely see the people with problems with LW get personal, just the defenders of all that is LW!

This is ABSOLUTE tosh!!

I complain about Lightwave ALOT, but i say things in a fair way... not once has a LW fanboy bitten my head off or said anything to me that i find offensive. Nope not even private messages.

It's simply the way you use words that can define whether you are just complaining for the sake of it, or actually have any substance in the complaint. I've been using 3d software for over 10 years and i'm not even that old. I use 3dsMax at work, used to use it at home before i went over to lightwave. Used XSI at college, and used extreme 3d from macromedia way back in the day, along with imagine. None of these packages has done everything i want or need.

At work whilst using 3dsmax, i find my colleagues constantly saying "this is S**T" "that is S**T" about it, but i know Lightwave does the things they are moaning about much better than max does. I have max crash on me minimum 10 times a day, and i've found this latest build of LW to be the most stable yet.

Yeah complaining is a part of life, but when you do it just be courteous and polite. Yeah, Newtek are taking your money for a service they provide to you, but they are only human. Some restaurants waiter might serve some badly cooked food, but you aren't going to be rude to them, they didn't cook the bloody thing. (Atleast in my country, most of us wouldn't be rude to the messenger)

Some people just need to chill out a bit!

Bog
03-01-2008, 09:40 AM
If you feel ripped off by NewTek, then presumably it's because LW's not making money for you. Given all the studios which are cheerfully being profitable using LW and other NewTek products, maybe it's not the software?

Not being rude or anything. If I was being rude, I'd have said something about dead goats. Or something.

kopperdrake
03-01-2008, 11:39 AM
Ooh - dead goats?!! We have *never* seen a forum thread degenerate into the pros and cons of goats, dead or otherwise!

My dear Bog - you may have hit on an avenue out of this thread before it degenerates!

I want goat pics!! Preferably live goats...or other Bovidae.

Fainting goats... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we9_CdNPuJg

rakker16mm
03-01-2008, 12:27 PM
In the interest of international peace and harmony I here by nominate Smiley M. Goat as our new ambassador to the United Nations. http://www.gambling911.com/funny-goat.gif

All in favor say Baaaaaaa

simpfendoerfer
03-01-2008, 01:42 PM
Let me say it also here: I would be willing to pay more if it would make LW get better faster.

I am deeply invested in LW with know how and habit. I don't want start over in another application.

Cageman
03-01-2008, 01:43 PM
No, who was that other guy that used to be around a lot a few years ago that constantly baited people? I miss that guy, I just wish I could remember his username. A wooden nickel to the person who knows who I'm talking about.

SBowling!

;)

Cageman
03-01-2008, 01:48 PM
Yea, Yea, Yea, Newtek has been awesome at giving us other stuff instead of the needed CA tools, superfast OpenGL, network rendering managment, and well you know the rest of the list.

You mean rehaul of Lights, a light api (!), multithreaded mesh deformation, new FBX and Collada, new IK-solver, much cleaner GI, Cache GI that works with network rendering, etc, etc, etc. ;)

Bog
03-01-2008, 01:50 PM
Just about every time I run into someone from NewTek, I assure them I'm happy to pay more, for faster and more in-depth development. Even - nay, especially - when they don't want to hear it.

Except last time. I was heading for the bar. But every other time.

mattclary
03-01-2008, 02:10 PM
as soon as they voice them, they are personally attacked by the fan boy club...

Well, lets see... You refered to us as delusional, seems kid of like a persoanl aattack. i suggested if LightWave doesn't meet your needs, you should find some software that does. Granted, while referring to your newness to the community, but I would hardly call that a personal attack.

Here is something personal: You are a toll. Go away. We have heard these same arguments for years, you bring nothing new to the table.

wacom
03-01-2008, 05:40 PM
Surprisingly we get more and more requests from users of those other renderers to port. (I won't got into technicalities as to why it makes sense... but it does).

Cheers,
Mike

mr, reyes or both? I wasn't dogging on your plugin BTW, simply state'n that pyramidal file type that allows for render specific lookups of the image etc. is in there for mr in XSI. I'm not sure of the differences between those in say 3Delight (the pyramidal tiffs) and there use vs. the map files in mr though.

RTSchramm
03-01-2008, 06:04 PM
As explained earlier, large 3d companies such as Autodesk have the money and capital to hire the brightest and the best 3d programmers around the world. An example is Maya's N-cloth, its simply AWESOME! The guy who designed it, Jos Stam, is a computer scientist who specialists in fluid dynamics. I don't think Newtek can afford to hire a guy like him or much less an entire team for each aspect of 3d design like Autodesk has.

For those who ***** about how LW is behind the times, read this short article about Jos Stam and just maybe you might appreciate how tough it is to create reality though mathematics.

http://www.michaelbehar.com/wired/stam.html

And finally, I think too many users want a 3d application that can with the click of the button can produce any effect they want with little artistic effort. There will NEVER be a day with any 3d application where this will be possible as nothing can replace the constant tweaking of a gifted artist.

From my experience looking at the galleries and movies made with the various 3d applications, an animator or modeler who is gifted, can produce awesome work with any 3d apps. Its the skill of the user(s), not the application itself that creates great works of animation.

With ALL of the tools that LW has, only a handful are needed to create and animate any object from an artist's imagination.

Rich

Bog
03-01-2008, 06:07 PM
Sing it, Rich.

Most people who're moaning simply don't grok the situation.

And yet, NewTek keeps on being so NICE to them. I've had the privilege of meeting Tim Jenison twice, and he's struck me as a zero-bullsh*t personality in spades. Amazing the restraint his company shows with whiners.

This stuff isn't easy. If you wanted easy, and one click solutions, go for something easy like a job in orthopaedic surgery.

*chuckle*

wacom
03-01-2008, 06:09 PM
Nevermind- I see it's more of a limitation on file size! You're a smart man for developing this plugin with a forward look towards how big files were going to get! So mr and most reyes render have a similar option, that is good for most daily use (8k files etc) but infinimap is going beyond that big time!

I stand 70% corrected (if that can happen). I merely read the first post in this thread as saying there was nothing else even out there!

Bog
03-01-2008, 06:19 PM
Wacom,

3D is an eternal learning experience. You seem to be open to that, so I have all the time in the world, plus a few percent, if you have an open mind. It's the people who seem to expect their 3D software to be "A Solved Problem" who make me QWERTY my forehead.

COBRASoft
03-01-2008, 07:10 PM
I'm really wondering if anybody at NT would have expected so much commotion about their 9.5 previews.

Please everybody, just stop all these threads. I think everybody knows by now that NT promised things they haven't delivered in the 9.x yet (like instancing) and they inserted things we never expected so early (like hair and fur). Will they deliver the promises or more free things?? No idea, only they have a clue and plans.

Are the updates for free or not, what does it matter, we get them, and by every update LW becomes better. Isn't this the main thing we all want, a better LW in the end, every time?

I just signed up for the new OB of 9.5 and I'm looking forward to discover the new things they've implemented this time. I'm also looking forward to guys like DPont what extra's they will get out of this release using the SDK and to Proton's new videos.

hrgiger
03-01-2008, 07:50 PM
I propose we all go dark until the OB hits!

wavemaster
03-02-2008, 12:42 AM
This is ABSOLUTE tosh!!

I complain about Lightwave ALOT, but i say things in a fair way... not once has a LW fanboy bitten my head off or said anything to me that i find offensive. Nope not even private messages.

It's simply the way you use words that can define whether you are just complaining for the sake of it, or actually have any substance in the complaint. I've been using 3d software for over 10 years and i'm not even that old. I use 3dsMax at work, used to use it at home before i went over to lightwave. Used XSI at college, and used extreme 3d from macromedia way back in the day, along with imagine. None of these packages has done everything i want or need.

At work whilst using 3dsmax, i find my colleagues constantly saying "this is S**T" "that is S**T" about it, but i know Lightwave does the things they are moaning about much better than max does. I have max crash on me minimum 10 times a day, and i've found this latest build of LW to be the most stable yet.

Yeah complaining is a part of life, but when you do it just be courteous and polite. Yeah, Newtek are taking your money for a service they provide to you, but they are only human. Some restaurants waiter might serve some badly cooked food, but you aren't going to be rude to them, they didn't cook the bloody thing. (Atleast in my country, most of us wouldn't be rude to the messenger)

Some people just need to chill out a bit!

If you feel ripped off by NewTek, then presumably it's because LW's not making money for you. Given all the studios which are cheerfully being profitable using LW and other NewTek products, maybe it's not the software?

Not being rude or anything. If I was being rude, I'd have said something about dead goats. Or something.

Well, I earn most of my money with flash and after effects, but lately 3d has been making me more!
Still doesn't change the fact that I bought LW 9.0 for features that were never delivered... yet! If they are before v10, then I will be happy... If they are not, I will not fall for the same trick again!

wavemaster
03-02-2008, 12:50 AM
Well, lets see... You refered to us as delusional, seems kid of like a persoanl aattack. i suggested if LightWave doesn't meet your needs, you should find some software that does. Granted, while referring to your newness to the community, but I would hardly call that a personal attack.

Here is something personal: You are a toll. Go away. We have heard these same arguments for years, you bring nothing new to the table.

I bring more then your cheesy looking light saber... you mean to tell me you have been here since 2003 and made 4000 post and thats the best you can come up with! I'd rather be a troll then talentless! When you can show me something of worth, then you may talk trash to me, until then you have no room to say anything to anyone!!!!!!!!!!!!

wavemaster
03-02-2008, 01:03 AM
IMHO. There is nothing that can stop you from creating great art.
Period.

It's not Newtek's fault if you haven't the talent to deliver great works.
I don't hear anyone with effects work in films complaining that the software prevented them from assisting the director in telling his story.

Lightwave probably has all the tools you need to do whatever you dream.

Dream it. Build it. Share it.

Go ahead, Make a scene!
Judging by what you have posted In the wip section, and what I have posted in the wip section... you seem to be the one having trouble making art!

j__
03-02-2008, 01:45 AM
"You must have missed the 1000+ post thread originally about showing some of 9.5's features and turned into something completely different."

Hi I flipped through it, but I didn't see any deliberate attempt to destroy the thread or to try to turn it into something different . There were some rational, honestly-held, off-the-hip responses from a number of people about the appearance of these hair tests, and there was some skepticism about what 'joint' meant. If it was turned into something else it was because of some of the over reaction to what was being posted imho.

I contributed a couple of things in one thread in an honest and direct way, and I said there as well if a number of people are genuinely looking forward to these features, then that's cool by me.

j__
03-02-2008, 01:55 AM
"If you feel ripped off by NewTek, then presumably it's because LW's not making money for you."

Hi, there's nothing to presume about that at all. I can't speak for the person who made the original point, but the thrust of what he said is correct if we are being honest.

When I think of LW, I tend to think of pretty much what we've seen in recent days; generally a fan-like following often with a sense of personal identity glued around LW itself, looking for reassurance, and enthusiastic towards pretty much whatever is thrown in LW, and that's the predominant mood around LW, it can be a bit of a cult. Some may think of this LW Cult as a 'LW Lobby', but it has no real specific influence at all over NT, rather it can be more relied upon as one gigantic rubber stamp.

"Given all the studios which are cheerfully being profitable using LW and other NewTek products, maybe it's not the software?"

I don't think I've ever directly come across LW where I've worked in animation and certainly no other NewTek product whatever they even are. It's always been Maya. Many I've worked with in that field have barely heard of LW, if they have at all. I'm sure there are exceptions, but very few 'big' examples people cite seem to hold up to inspection, of these it usually turns out that LW has been used in a very limited or extremely basic role. And for pretty much the reasons laid out.

--------------------------------

jin choung/blender:

A+

jin choung
03-02-2008, 02:02 AM
: )

jin

*Pete*
03-02-2008, 02:44 AM
ill add by super optimistic fanboy view to this....

LW is at the state it is much thanks to the previous team, the team breaking up and the old code LW has...since Jay took over things have improved, and there are few, if any applications that have improved so much in so short time..yes, there was much to improve, but we are heading in the right direction.

now, with 9.5 the first improvements to CA are arriving, while it may not become a maya-killer over night, its a sign of NT turning the focus on CA now.
look what they did to the renderer from 8.5 and to 9.31...if CA improvements get even half of the amount of improvement, i think LW will become competetive even in that field.

nobody will argue that LW doesnt need improvement, but never before has LW improved as much as it has during the last 2 years, and there is no sign of LW slowing down its momentum either, as we do get some long awaited features with 9.5

-EsHrA-
03-02-2008, 04:17 AM
erhm sorry *pete* i dont agree,
it didnt improve on core functionality it just got bigger the last two years.
and i dont see nt compete on ca any time soon.

mlon

MooseDog
03-02-2008, 06:41 AM
I bring more then your cheesy looking light saber... you mean to tell me you have been here since 2003 and made 4000 post and thats the best you can come up with! I'd rather be a troll then talentless! When you can show me something of worth, then you may talk trash to me, until then you have no room to say anything to anyone!!!!!!!!!!!!



Judging by what you have posted In the wip section, and what I have posted in the wip section... you seem to be the one having trouble making art!

that's respectful, helpful and courteous :) . izzat you bry?

wavemaster
03-02-2008, 06:49 AM
did you read the post that they directed at me? I am just defending myself!

Who is this Bry that you speak of?

Lightwolf
03-02-2008, 06:50 AM
mr, reyes or both?
Specifically mr. Which makes most sense from our PoV as well. (Reyes is too much of a niche).

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
03-02-2008, 06:53 AM
Nevermind- I see it's more of a limitation on file size.
That and performance over a network - there's a big difference to loading compressed data over a network as opposed to treating an image file like virtual memory - on a server.
Copying the images to the nodes makes it a bit less painful, but adds a management overhead.

Cheers,
Mike

hrgiger
03-02-2008, 08:41 AM
Judging by what you have posted In the wip section, and what I have posted in the wip section... you seem to be the one having trouble making art!

Are you referring to your single post of the texture test? Because you know, I just thought that was super.





Do I even have to mention that the above is just oozing sarcasm?

*Pete*
03-02-2008, 08:43 AM
erhm sorry *pete* i dont agree,
it didnt improve on core functionality it just got bigger the last two years.
and i dont see nt compete on ca any time soon.


it got bigger with features as the nodal texturing system, but doesnt the render improvements count as core functionality?
when rendering speed increased from a full day render with one bounce MC into half an hour multi bounce GI renders....
as for CA..neither of us can know for sure what is going to happen with CA or when it will be awailable, so both your and mine opinions are just quesses.

wavemaster
03-02-2008, 09:00 AM
Are you referring to your single post of the texture test? Because you know, I just thought that was super.





Do I even have to mention that the above is just oozing sarcasm?
I am glad you liked it...:hey: but I wasn't saying anything except that the two people that felt they needed to insult me and my ability put their stuff next to mine before they start talking trash!

If you want to go head to head with a 3d walk off, please feel free to post your best and I will gladly do the same!:thumbsup: You can even PM your best to me if you want... not to embarrass you in public!

hrgiger
03-02-2008, 09:04 AM
If you want to go head to head with a 3d walk off, please feel free to post your best and I will gladly do the same!:thumbsup: You can even PM your best to me if you want... not to embarrass you in public!

I'm not here to compete with other people. I'm secure in both my manhood and penis thank you. Grow up kid.

lardbros
03-02-2008, 09:11 AM
Haha, i was gonna say why don't you just post pics of your fully turgid peni... that'll solve the issues you're having! :)

hrgiger
03-02-2008, 09:24 AM
Oh lord, now I see that junior there has dug up a bunch of my WIP's in the WIP forum to criticize. If he's over 12, I'd be shocked as hell.

wavemaster
03-02-2008, 09:40 AM
Have I once addressed you in this forum? So why are you surprised that after you insult me with no reason that I defend myself! People here are wacko!

You can say what you want, but when someone defends themselves they are 12! GET REAL MAN... dont talk trash if you cant take it back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mattclary
03-02-2008, 09:40 AM
I bring more then your cheesy looking light saber... you mean to tell me you have been here since 2003 and made 4000 post and thats the best you can come up with! I'd rather be a troll then talentless! When you can show me something of worth, then you may talk trash to me, until then you have no room to say anything to anyone!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never claimed to have talent or claimed you did not.


IF LIGHTWAVE DOES NOT FULFILL YOUR NEEDS, WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE?

Simple question.

wavemaster
03-02-2008, 09:43 AM
LW is not the only software that I use, but it is the only one that I am still waiting for features that were advertised three years ago when I upgraded to be delivered!

hrgiger
03-02-2008, 09:46 AM
Have I once addressed you in this forum? So why are you surprised that after you insult me with no reason that I defend myself! People here are wacko!

You can say what you want, but when someone defends themselves they are 12! GET REAL MAN... dont talk trash if you cant take it back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Welcome to the last time I'll ever respond to you on these forums.

I wasn't insulting you per se. You started insulting other peoples work which to me, pretty much opens up your own work to criticism as far as I'm concerned. You've posted a single entry on the WIP forums which apparently was so uninteresting, it failed to received a single response. Yet you seem to claim that you're better then the few people that you've attempted to insult. so yeah, if you're over 12, I'd be surprised.

Do we have a "dead to me" smiley?

mattclary
03-02-2008, 09:47 AM
LW is not the only software that I use, but it is the only one that I am still waiting for features that were advertised three years ago when I upgraded to be delivered!


So go buy Maya. Or do your god-like 3D skills not provide you enough cash to afford Maya?

hrgiger
03-02-2008, 09:49 AM
Is this thread closed yet?

wavemaster
03-02-2008, 09:51 AM
My insulting posts were directed at people that insulted me first... not you! Reread the thread, And please tell me why you felt the need insult my work. Then I will be glad to tell you my age... which is over 12:)

wavemaster
03-02-2008, 09:54 AM
So go buy Maya. Or do your god-like 3D skills not provide you enough cash to afford Maya?
Dont want maya, I use xsi, z brush, lw... Is that OK with you matt?

mattclary
03-02-2008, 09:55 AM
Dont want maya, I use xsi, z brush, lw... Is that OK with you matt?


So what is it that XSI lacks that brings you to LightWave?

wavemaster
03-02-2008, 09:59 AM
Nothing... but I was a waver first and still rather model and render in LW for most stuff. There is a few features on the render end of xsi that I would like to see in LW though. We'll see what 9.5 brings!

mattclary
03-02-2008, 10:01 AM
Nothing... but I was a waver first and still rather model and render in LW for most stuff. There is a few features on the render end of xsi that I would like to see in LW though. We'll see what 9.5 brings!


Well, you should just invest more time in XSI. Once you gain some skill with it, I am sure you will be much happier.

wavemaster
03-02-2008, 10:02 AM
What is all this bryphi stuff about?

lardbros
03-02-2008, 10:03 AM
CAN YOU GUYS JUST STOP IT FROM HERE ON IN? This is getting ridiculous!!
It is like watching a playground fight, and it's a bit embarrassing that adults are acting like this!

mattclary
03-02-2008, 10:04 AM
CAN YOU GUYS JUST STOP IT FROM HERE ON IN? This is getting ridiculous!!
It is like watching a playground fight, and it's a bit embarrassing that adults are acting like this!


You want some of this too!?


;)

lardbros
03-02-2008, 10:05 AM
You want some of this too!?


;)


Haha, YEEEEAAAHH bring it on!!


FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT!

;)

wavemaster
03-02-2008, 10:06 AM
I call all of you out at 3:00 after school on mon... Be there!:2guns:

MooseDog
03-02-2008, 09:57 PM
well, you got to 100 posts bryan. congrats...and goodbye.:devil:

lardbros
03-03-2008, 12:34 AM
well, you got to 100 posts bryan. congrats...and goodbye.:devil:

Not any need really... we'd just reconciled the whole argument. Everyone is happy as of now!

wacom
03-03-2008, 01:03 AM
As explained earlier, ...

Do you trust anything written in wired? Frankly, I find that publication useless. I also saw it as an advertisement, but that's just me.

As far as the whole "the artist, not the tool thing" fair enough- given that they have the same tool set.

You mean to tell me that if I have an "artist's dream" in color and you give me a pencil...and another artist has the same dream...but you give him...say colored pencils...I will come closer to my dream?

RUBBISH!

Some apps have a whole set of oils, watercolors, colored pencils, pen tablets with painter 10 installed, and a whole slew of learning materials where others don't even have firewood charcoal and a dry stump!

I do agree with making use of what you have...but if you can obtain something that makes it easier, no- make that feasible, to do something, and you can not only afford it or even profit from it, gain a better "self" some how from it, advance your self as an artist, why would you hold back like some digital Bodhisattva?

Silly...just plain and simple.

beverins
03-03-2008, 07:22 AM
Have I once addressed you in this forum? So why are you surprised that after you insult me with no reason that I defend myself! People here are wacko!

You can say what you want, but when someone defends themselves they are 12! GET REAL MAN... dont talk trash if you cant take it back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You forgot a couple of 1's in there among the exclamation points. Authenticity and all that. Can't have sloppy internet ranting now. Buck up.

firstsingle
03-03-2008, 12:24 PM
Hey Wavemaster. I seriously need to upgrade to 9. Would you consider transferring your version to me since you don't want it.
I'm still on 8.5:hey:

RTSchramm
03-04-2008, 07:22 PM
You mean to tell me that if I have an "artist's dream" in color and you give me a pencil...and another artist has the same dream...but you give him...say colored pencils...I will come closer to my dream?

RUBBISH!

But if you suck as an artist, your colored drawings will suck just as much as the black and white drawings.

Your analogy is too simplistic. The point I was making is that many of the users who complain about the limitations of LW seem to want a magic wand to wave and then puff you now have photographic hair, perfect rigs, prefect skin perfect cloth, and liquids, etc. There is no magic bullet that will substitute for talent and long hours of practice experimenting and hard work.

If anyone thinks so then you are in the wrong line of work. Get a job as a politician.

rRich

SP00
03-05-2008, 06:42 AM
Well, I really only have one complaint about lightwave and that is multi pass rendering. I just want the shadows to be separated from the diffuse channel. This probably means a big rewrite in how the renderer in Lightwave works, but I hope they get cracking on that soon. IES lighting is included with 9.5. So no complaints about that. I mainly do Arch Viz work these days, so I think Lightwave handles that extremely well and quickly (maybe even the best package for archviz). Investing in Lightwave is not the $899 that it seems to be. There are a few must have plug-ins, depending on the industry, and that drives up the cost.

If you do ArchViz work with Lightwave you need to buy at least Fprime, LWCAD, and probably HD instance. That makes Lightwave a program package that is close to $2K.

Its obvious that whatever Lightwave lacks is being made up in the lightwave plug-in community. However, there are so many out there. I really wish that Newtek would put together a quality recommended plug-in package for certain industries. At least that would help Lightwave feel more complete with a nice quality plug-in package.

I think having the plug-in community making up for the deficiency in lightwave is a great approach. The problem is that a lot of plug-ins are not created by a reliable company that will keep up to date with changes in LW. There are also a lot of junk plug-ins that makes plug-ins feel less than ideal. Maybe this is partially Newtek's fault with their SDK, who knows. I think Newtek should have more control on how Third Parties create plug-ins. A while ago, I suggest that Newtek create some kinda Quality Assurance program to help create a community of quality plugins that:

1) fits with lightwave 3D workflow
2) fits with lightwave look and feel
3) assures plug-ins operate with rock solid stability
4) keeps developers informed about upcoming SDK changes
5) get pledges from developers to update their plug-in to new versions of LW within a given timeline.

Developers who adhere to the QA rules will get a nice "seal of approval" stamp and be recognized as a quality plug-in on their website. A Quality Assurance program will help the keep the junk plug-ins away. It will also help relieve some burden on Newtek developers to include everything under the sun. This program will also help the end users as they have more confidence in knowing that these plugins will operation with a familiar workflow, kept up to date, reliable, and relevant the job at hand.

I personally don't want to pay for features I would never use. So I rather have a low cost Lightwave program with the ability to buy recommended reliable plug-in solutions for the industry I am in. So on their online store I like to see something like this:

Arch Viz = Lightwave + Plugin Package 1
Medical = Lightwave + Plugin Package 2
Graphics = Lightwave + Plugin Package 3
Etc.

If you think about it, Maya, Max, and even XSI is doing this, but with much bigger name products.

wavemaster
03-05-2008, 06:46 AM
Well, I really only have one complaint about lightwave and that is multi pass rendering. I just want the shadows to be separated from the diffuse channel. This probably means a big rewrite in how the renderer in Lightwave works, but I hope they get cracking on that soon. IES lighting is included with 9.5. So no complaints about that. I mainly do Arch Viz work these days, so I think Lightwave handles that extremely well and quickly (maybe even the best package for archviz). Investing in Lightwave is not the $899 that it seems to be. There are a few must have plug-ins, depending on the industry, and that drives up the cost.

If you do ArchViz work with Lightwave you need to buy at least Fprime, LWCAD, and probably HD instance. That makes Lightwave a program package that is close to $2K.

Its obvious that whatever Lightwave lacks is being made up in the lightwave plug-in community. However, there are so many out there. I really wish that Newtek would put together a quality recommended plug-in package for certain industries. At least that would help Lightwave feel more complete with a nice quality plug-in package.

I think having the plug-in community making up for the deficiency in lightwave is a great approach. The problem is that a lot of plug-ins are not created by a reliable company that will keep up to date with changes in LW. There are also a lot of junk plug-ins that makes plug-ins feel less than ideal. Maybe this is partially Newtek's fault with their SDK, who knows. I think Newtek should have more control on how Third Parties create plug-ins. A while ago, I suggest that Newtek create some kinda Quality Assurance program to help create a community of quality plugins that:

1) fits with lightwave 3D workflow
2) fits with lightwave look and feel
3) assures plug-ins operate with rock solid stability
4) keeps developers informed about upcoming SDK changes
5) get pledges from developers to update their plug-in to new versions of LW within a given timeline.

Developers who adhere to the QA rules will get a nice "seal of approval" stamp and be recognized as a quality plug-in on their website. A Quality Assurance program will help the keep the junk plug-ins away. It will also help relieve some burden on Newtek developers to include everything under the sun. This program will also help the end users as they have more confidence in knowing that these plugins will operation with a familiar workflow, kept up to date, reliable, and relevant the job at hand.

I personally don't want to pay for features I would never use. So I rather have a low cost Lightwave program with the ability to buy recommended reliable plug-in solutions for the industry I am in. So on their online store I like to see something like this:

Arch Viz = Lightwave + Plugin Package 1
Medical = Lightwave + Plugin Package 2
Graphics = Lightwave + Plugin Package 3
Etc.

If you think about it, Maya, Max, and even XSI is doing this, but with much bigger name products.

This may help...
Link (http://soldierwithin.home.comcast.net/~soldierwithin/rad.mov)

SP00
03-05-2008, 08:06 AM
This may help...
Link (http://soldierwithin.home.comcast.net/~soldierwithin/rad.mov)

Thanks,

This is a pretty useful video for me. I'll use this until the rendering can do this natively :)

CAClark
03-05-2008, 08:16 AM
It's the fact that NT treat users like mushrooms that causes big problems.

Sure complaining about promises of what would be in 9.0 doesn't change anything, but it doesn't make it right that features such *** CC Subdivs which were supposed to be a 9.0 feature are still f-u-cked in 9.3.1, and unless it's an as yet unspecified fix, will still be f-u-cked in 9.5.

So if it's all the same to anyone else, I'll just carry on criticising NT when they deserve it, and heap the praise on when they have earned it, just to show it's not a one way deal.

Cheers!

wavemaster
03-05-2008, 08:22 AM
I am hoping that the cc's are fixed too... They have been left broken far too long! I like using edge weights to model, but they are really making us jump through loops to use them!
Totally unnecessary, and unacceptable...:agree:

wavemaster
03-05-2008, 08:25 AM
Thanks,

This is a pretty useful video for me. I'll use this until the rendering can do this natively :)
No prob... glad to help.

SP00
03-05-2008, 08:48 AM
It's the fact that NT treat users like mushrooms that causes big problems.

Sure complaining about promises of what would be in 9.0 doesn't change anything, but it doesn't make it right that features such *** CC Subdivs which were supposed to be a 9.0 feature are still f-u-cked in 9.3.1, and unless it's an as yet unspecified fix, will still be f-u-cked in 9.5.

So if it's all the same to anyone else, I'll just carry on criticising NT when they deserve it, and heap the praise on when they have earned it, just to show it's not a one way deal.

Cheers!

Yeah, I agree the criticism is a good thing when warranted, but please lets try to have one every 6 months instead of every 2 - 3 months :)

Titus
03-05-2008, 09:00 AM
Well, I really only have one complaint about lightwave and that is multi pass rendering. I just want the shadows to be separated from the diffuse channel. This probably means a big rewrite in how the renderer in Lightwave works, but I hope they get cracking on that soon.

There's no reason why this is hard to implement, maybe is simply not in the top of the todo list. And when NT decide to separate shadows from diffuse they can also add a cubic diffuse shading (http://www.blender.org/development/current-projects/changes-since-245/rendering-features/) node, just saying.

SP00
03-05-2008, 12:54 PM
I'm looking thru the gallery on the Blender site, and don't see anything that blows me away. I would really want to hear about the blender experience, I understand that on paper the list of features are impressive, but do they produce good results with a nice workflow. 3D is already a complex/slow process and the last thing I want to do is make my life more technical and less artistic. Lets hope the new Blender interface makes life substantially easier and not harder. I really do like the idea of an open source 3D app, but it doesn't seem quite ready yet.

wacom
03-05-2008, 01:08 PM
But if you suck as an artist, your colored drawings will suck just as much as the black and white drawings.

Your analogy is too simplistic. The point I was making is that many of the users who complain about the limitations of LW seem to want a magic wand to wave and then puff you now have photographic hair, perfect rigs, prefect skin perfect cloth, and liquids, etc. There is no magic bullet that will substitute for talent and long hours of practice experimenting and hard work.

If anyone thinks so then you are in the wrong line of work. Get a job as a politician.

rRich

ASO! OK, I completely agree and was instead going under the assumption that the theoretical artist were of equal "talent".

What you say is very true- you could take a room full of artist and give them only cubes with a constant shader and one camera, and even with no animation some would come out with better framing etc. Things only get "more true" in those respects the more complex the idea is and the more visual layers you add.

OK I'm on the same boat, reading the same page, when it comes to being a good artist, observer, and scientist first, technical software master second!

jin choung
03-05-2008, 01:11 PM
to spoo who evidently missed it....


http://peach.blender.org/index.php/media-gallery/
http://peach.blender.org/index.php/grooming-time/
http://peach.blender.org/index.php/nathan-demos-rigging-rinky-the-squirrel/
http://peach.blender.org/index.php/2007/12/

some videos are in ogg so need vlc or something... most are youtube....


jin

p.s. 2.46 release candidate 1 is available for download... this is the one with the hair stuff and pole vector ik, etc.

SP00
03-05-2008, 01:19 PM
to spoo who evidently missed it....



jin

p.s. 2.46 release candidate 1 is available for download... this is the one with the hair stuff and pole vector ik, etc.

That looks pretty good, but for me to use it, I like to know if they have anything similar to LWCAD and if their render engine can match LWs.

jin choung
03-05-2008, 01:21 PM
nothing at all similar to lwcad.

render engine is good and the best results so far is in "Peach". but if you're looking for architectural specific render features or "accurate" lighting, blender is not for you.

though there is a raytracer called YAFRAY that plugs into blender.

if you're looking to just pick up and go though, interface is still tough. i'd wait till 2.5.

jin

sadkkf
03-05-2008, 03:26 PM
I think the best course for NT is marketing. Draw attention to it. That will increase the prospects for third party developers who can develop things like fluids, hair and CA tools. Flash doesn't everything I need out of the box so I buy components. Same with Photoshop.

Iain
03-05-2008, 03:56 PM
render engine is good and the best results so far is in "Peach". but if you're looking for architectural specific render features or "accurate" lighting, blender is not for you.

though there is a raytracer called YAFRAY that plugs into blender.


Indigo works very well with Blender and it's capable of some amazing, maxwell-like results.

Weepul
03-05-2008, 04:14 PM
they can also add a cubic diffuse shading (http://www.blender.org/development/current-projects/changes-since-245/rendering-features/) node, just saying.
See attachment...that might fit your bill.

Dodgy
03-05-2008, 05:34 PM
Nice....

Maxx
03-05-2008, 08:04 PM
Is there a repository of examples out and about of what each of the different function nodes do, and - more importantly - where and why they might be used in a real-world setting? Seeing as my math skills are a bit rusty by this point (read:I haven't taken a math course in about 14 years or so...) I'm a bit confused as to what they do and why.

faulknermano
03-06-2008, 12:15 AM
ignore.

Exception
03-06-2008, 12:51 AM
I like colored pencils. I use them a lot. someone dear to me bought me a 120 pencil set, it's the most used hand tool I have. I make nice drawings with it.

I like Lightwave. I use it a lot. I bought me a couple of licenses and now its the most used computer too I use. I make nice images with it.

I like Newtek. I interact with them a lot. I spent some time getting to know them and now it's my favorite software company. I make nice friends here.

rakker16mm
03-06-2008, 04:26 AM
It is OK to be critical of the software so long as one is well informed and there is a point to the criticism. For instance when there is a feature that does need improving or there is a bug that needs fixing. Such criticism can help NT improve their product and I am pretty sure they welcome it. Beta testing for instance is productive criticism. Suggesting that NT allocate more resources toward improving CA is also valid and productive criticism.

Unfortunately some of the criticism in these threads has been counterproductive. there have been accusations leveled at NT and even it's customers that were not in the spirit of improving the product. It was even at one point suggested that NT was ripping off its delusional customers who were just happy happy happy enough to rollover. This sort of criticism serves no one.

I think one good thing that has come out this debate is the examination of the debate itself. After reading several later post I noted many good observations, and as these sorts of topics tend to pop up somewhat periodically, this give me some home that we could have a spirited but respectful debate in the future.....

BUT then again I tend to be a little delusional at times :D

Bog
03-06-2008, 04:39 AM
Well said, rakker16mm.

Given the population of the Internet as a whole, I think we're doing fairly well in this little community of ours - there aren't that many people who follow John Gabriel's theory that closely. Most criticism is pretty constructive, and in general when a thread's derailed by someone who either genuinely feels ripped off or just wants to kick over an anthill, it's usually just one or two people doing the screaming. Admittedly, five pages where every other post is that person gets irksome, but that's why the board's got an Ignore function.

At the moment, I'm chewing holes in the desk 'cause I really darn well want to get my hands on the 9.5 lighting system. It would utterly prettify a job I'm doing for a major newspaper's sunday-supplement DVD, and it's breaking my heart being told to stay out of the kitchen, it'll be ready when it's ready.

But you know what? The fact that people from NewTek say that, rather than just sending a form letter or a quip - hell, the fact that they take the time to say that when I've obviously had a long day finished off with a pint or three - means the world.

The longer I deal with LightWave, and with NT products, the more of a feeling I get that we're all in this together - they know that LW needs work, and they're working on it as fast and as well as they can. The last year's seen a huge set of advances.

I'm pretty good with words and things - both in writing, and in reading comprehension. This keeps me drawing a continual blank with people who claim to have been ripped off, and who say that NewTek lied about what 9.0 would be. I read the pre-release notes, the Open Beta notes and all the ancilliary bits and pieces and realised that buying into the 9.x cycle would be an evolving process, one without a written-in-stone roadmap. It seemed really obvious to me that we'd have some surprises - the new lighting system wasn't something I was expecting, for example.

To be honest, having accurate soft-shadowed lights which one can use in animation is more important to me right now than better CA tools - I win! Yay! However, some of the other tweaks, twiddles and new features just don't show up on my radar at this time. Have I been ripped off because my specific need hasn't been catered to? Nope. I've gotten to be part of the process, as was made plain before 9.0 was even available for preorder.

So, if I've occasionally lacked sympathy for people who're claiming they've been gipped - sorry lads, I just think you've got the wrong end of the stick.

Sarford
03-06-2008, 06:26 AM
...but that's why the board's got an Ignore function...


You'd wonder if the developers are using this, just too keep their good spirit... :D

wavemaster
03-06-2008, 06:53 AM
You'd wonder if the developers are using this, just too keep their good spirit... :D
yeah, That could explain why we dont get anything LW needs!:agree:

colkai
03-06-2008, 07:04 AM
You'd wonder if the developers are using this, just too keep their good spirit... :D
Hehe, at times, you'd think it wouldn't be a bad idea! :D :hey:

MooseDog
03-06-2008, 07:09 AM
yeah, That could explain why we dont get anything LW needs!:agree:

as always brian, insightful and constructive.



But you know what? The fact that people from NewTek say that, rather than just sending a form letter or a quip - hell, the fact that they take the time to say that when I've obviously had a long day finished off with a pint or three - means the world.

The longer I deal with LightWave, and with NT products, the more of a feeling I get that we're all in this together - they know that LW needs work, and they're working on it as fast and as well as they can. The last year's seen a huge set of advances.

I'm pretty good with words and things - both in writing, and in reading comprehension. This keeps me drawing a continual blank with people who claim to have been ripped off, and who say that NewTek lied about what 9.0 would be. I read the pre-release notes, the Open Beta notes and all the ancilliary bits and pieces and realised that buying into the 9.x cycle would be an evolving process, one without a written-in-stone roadmap. It seemed really obvious to me that we'd have some surprises - the new lighting system wasn't something I was expecting, for example.

To be honest, having accurate soft-shadowed lights which one can use in animation is more important to me right now than better CA tools - I win! Yay! However, some of the other tweaks, twiddles and new features just don't show up on my radar at this time. Have I been ripped off because my specific need hasn't been catered to? Nope. I've gotten to be part of the process, as was made plain before 9.0 was even available for preorder.

So, if I've occasionally lacked sympathy for people who're claiming they've been gipped - sorry lads, I just think you've got the wrong end of the stick.

thank you mark:thumbsup: :bowdown:

wavemaster
03-06-2008, 07:15 AM
as always brian, insightful and constructive.




thank you mark:thumbsup: :bowdown:
Brian?... I dont believe thats how he spelled his name...but I could be wrong.

andywright
03-06-2008, 07:42 AM
The longer I deal with LightWave, and with NT products, the more of a feeling I get that we're all in this together - they know that LW needs work, and they're working on it as fast and as well as they can. The last year's seen a huge set of advances.



I agree, Lightwave is starting from behind the pack, but Newtek by their statements and marketing know this and seem to be aiming along the right path.

If it keeps adding new features and progresses as fast as the initial part of 9.X then it should soon have a very strong feature set. :lightwave

But no matter how strong it becomes, as a few others have said on these forums, its not likely to be the 'all in one' package some seem to be after (anymore than any other app is). You need more than one tool in your toolbox :hey:

I am hoping that the end of seperate modeller and layout is on the path as I dislike this approach (as much as I dislike Carrara's 'room' approach). I prefer the integrated interface of an app like C4D. That comment will probably stir some pro and con comments :rolleyes:

-EsHrA-
03-06-2008, 08:02 AM
again, its not about adding tools, this is already the case.
it is about consolidation of tools, streamlining, interactivity, new ui (atleast better looking..hehe..lw vx ?! ),
memory handling so in other words core attributes.
i hope this is being worked on behind the scenes because 9.5 wont deliver us that.


mlon

Bog
03-06-2008, 08:25 AM
again, its not about adding tools, this is already the case.
it is about consolidation of tools, streamlining, interactivity, new ui (atleast better looking..hehe..lw vx ?! ),
memory handling so in other words core attributes.
i hope this is being worked on behind the scenes because 9.5 wont deliver us that.

How is adding new tools different from consolidation? Let's take a wild example: Being able to Multishift in Layout. That's something that'd be pretty wild to be able to do - but the existing Multishift tool and the existing Layout application lack the essential bits and pieces to be able to bevel-and-shift over time. So it does need to be a new tool, one which wasn't there to start with.

Also, the Layout infrastructure needs to be altered to accomodate the creation and addition of new geometry inside it, and to have a new object saving and versioning system to let the animator keep track of his source geometry et cetera.

To be clear, I'm just pulling a notional Layout Multishift out of thin air. No idea if we're gonna see that or not. I Just Made It Up as an example of an integrated tool. However, the point stands that not only would a whole new tool have to be brough into being, the supporting infrastructure would have to be changed to support that tool. And, in the doing, lots of other tools would either spontaneously start to exist (bevel and smooth shift in Layout). Through adapting the host system (Layout) this way, the API gets thrown open, and by the end of the week you've got loonies running their compilers 24/7 churning out new tools to extrude geometry down motions paths, parametric objects being created animatably (that's a new word now), making graphic equaliser objects being driven from audio file analyses and so on and so on and so on.

Each time a new system's tweaked, it throws open a huge new arena of possibilities - just look at what happenned when the Lighting API saw the light (aha) of day, and that's not even deployed yet.

I just really grok the way NewTek are approaching the leviathan task of turning LightWave into a modern 3D animation tool. Coming from 7.5 to something which is "Modern", in the sense that XSI or Maya is, is a seriously massive undertaking. Making those changes to the framework whilst keeping LW stable enough to use as a professional production tool must be a screaming nightmare. For those of you in the peanut gallery screaming about crashes, get over yourselves. That's why 3D software has incremental saving. All 3D software.

So, y'know, I feel good. The old girl's been having hip-replacements and pacemakers since 7.5 - now, she's getting a nice new vat-grown clone-replacement body with lots of nanotech enhancements,an Adamantine skeleton and a physical age of 25. It's not gonna happen overnight, but it's hardly like each new free update we get is breaking stuff.

beverins
03-06-2008, 08:48 AM
I like the direction Newtek is heading with their software. I just don't like their marketing. They try, but pretty much they're failing in that regard.

Newtek's latest thing about "speed" is OK.. but their ads just suck. They're so Amiga late 80's style. I like the idea of "get it done". They used to have ads that showed all the movies that used it. Maybe combine those together.

Another thing is where they are advertising. Think a bit outside the box. Make one for Photoshop User spotlighting Lightwave as a 2d Illustration tool, for example. Maybe something in "video" journals like Event DV, Government Video and Studio - they review 3D products you know! Hell, Studio even had a tutorial specifically about Lightwave in it. Let's not be TOO Toaster / Tricaster centric here, people. Video professionals DO use 3D for more than titles you know.

Lastly, you need to break through the perception among young users that Lightwave is "TeH SuxXorZ". Yes, let's face it, the board is filled with examples of how Maya RULEZ, XSI is KING, 3DStudio can Do it ALL, and LW is BLEH. Let's counter that public image. Let's showcase how these statements are full of the hot air they are.

Part of that is to get back to the Kick *** Demo Reels you USED to make, filled with all the commercial projects that Lightwave was used in.

Put up live demos online and in shows like Siggraph that make people go WOW... HOLY %$#$$# Lightwave can do THAT? How the $#$&@ did they DO THAT!!??? and they sit down and watch the demo and come away with respect. You might not be able to match some of the features of Maya, but you try. You show a rigged character done in Maestro. You show Fprime. Maybe instant rendering isn't a feature to be noteworthy anymore, but show it ANYway. Get the plugin authors' permission to show the plugin and DO IT.

Maxx
03-06-2008, 09:06 AM
How is adding new tools different from consolidation? Let's take a wild example: Being able to Multishift in Layout. That's something that'd be pretty wild to be able to do - but the existing Multishift tool and the existing Layout application lack the essential bits and pieces to be able to bevel-and-shift over time. So it does need to be a new tool, one which wasn't there to start with.
I think this may be a simple difference in point of view, but I personally agree with -EsHrA- that we don't need new tools, but consolidation of existing tools. While this does, in essence, become a new tool, it allows the old tools to go away. So, I'm thinking more of Modeler here than Layout, but imagine a Bevel tool that works on Edges, Points, or Polygons depending on the current selection. It also has the ability to group polygons before beveling, and to merge overlapping points during the interactive beveling process. So, yes, it's a new tool. However, Point Bevel, Bevel, Multishift, SmoothShift, possibly Extend, Extend+, Extender, and Edge Bevel get removed, and you don't have to shell out the additional $40 or so for Bevel++. That's the type of consolidation I'm thinking Modeler especially needs.

Now, I'm not denigrating or ignoring the point that Layout needs to be able to handle created geometry, etc. It's just that Jay has already pretty much squashed the idea that Modeler and Layout will be combined during the 9.x cycle, so I really don't see this one coming before 10 at the earliest. In the meantime, even with the truly phenomenal improvements we're seeing in Layout, Modeler needs some loving. It's been sitting outside in the snow peering through the back window into the warm and cozy living room for far too long. IMO.

Stjepanovic
03-06-2008, 09:37 AM
Since you mentioned Autodesk. I can tell you what they do: they do same old story - big monopoly muscling guy thing. They buy products like Lightwave and then they steer production to new directions and/or weed out bugs (cross my fingers) After they rip off clients. Just mention one of the biggest rip off of all time AUTOCAD. As business model for publicly traded company it's great. For users it sucks. Remember 3d Studio well Autodesk bought shares than they swallowed them. Mudbox, good luck it's another buy. Flame, Smoke ....fire ate them called Autodesk etc. etc. The last one is Maya . Good Luck to you guys too. So as you can see there is nothing innovative about this Company just the same like 'makers' of original Windows. I think innovation happens with companies that made Houdini (super hig-end), Modo, Lightwave, original Mudbox, Rhino 3D etc. Big guys they need heat from places like Blender and I hope it gets even better.

Stjepanovic
03-06-2008, 09:40 AM
Combining these two things should be least important future feature or planning for crew at Newtek.

wavemaster
03-06-2008, 09:43 AM
Combining these two things should be least important future feature or planning for crew at Newtek.
Many would disagree!

andywright
03-06-2008, 10:09 AM
Combining these two things should be least important future feature or planning for crew at Newtek.


I think it depends what you mean. By combining, I mean it feels so limiting not to have access to modeller tools in layout, especially if you want to animate geometry or tweak a model after texturing and attempting to render and feel it needs more work. It is a lot easier to do such things in other apps that have an integrated interface.

The issue is that if you keep adding modeller tools to layout to make it more flexible, eventually you have to ask the question..why have both ? :hey:

Stjepanovic
03-06-2008, 03:48 PM
From programing perspective although I am just getting into LScript, I can tell you that merging Layout and Modeller would produce bugs for sure. This means that it would take 9.5, 10.0, 10.15, 10.2 to weed out just problems. If NT has enormous resources this is possible. But let me tell you that even AutoDesk is not daring to rewrite 3dMax (pretty old dated code for current hardware) because it would seriously set them back. I am currently using Rhino VB script; and trust me any major changes in the main program. libraries or mixing diffrent parts can produce unpredictable results. I can imagine at the level of app what reshuffling can do. This is what I meant As far as convenience is concerned it would be very nice...:bowdown:

rakker16mm
03-06-2008, 06:13 PM
Like anything else, you can fix what you have or start over from scratch using the previous version as inspiration. Who is to say that any of the code from V9.x will even be used in the 10.x cycle? It is inevitable that all old code gets retired eventually. It's just a question of when it happens and whether it is done incrementally or all at once. Based on the improvements I have seen since V8.5 I have every confidence the programing team at NT can reach that goal whether they are integrating the old code or starting over from scratch.

If you have a Dodge and a Plymouth of roughly the same vintage you can take the best parts from each car and put them together to make a somewhat more reliable vehicle. It does take a lot of work and you are never going to be sure whether you are driving a Plodge or a Domouth :screwy:

Very often for the same amount of effort you can take the hood ornament off the Dodge, get rid of the rest. Then donate the Plymouth to your favorite charity, and in your now roomy garage, build yourself a proper hotrod. Just remember to put the nice hood ornament from the Dodge on when you are done. :thumbsup:

Given that by the time V10 comes out most hardware and operating systems will be 64 bit, and the newer processors will all be multi core monsters with capabilities speeds bordering on science fiction, and it is very doubtful much of the old code would survive anyway. So I suspect V10 may look and feel a lot more like a Dodge Viper than a Plodge. In any case if this does not happen by V10 then it surely will by V11.

hrgiger
03-06-2008, 06:42 PM
I knew it was just a matter of time before the car analogies started. Nooooo......

rakker16mm
03-06-2008, 09:34 PM
I knew it was just a matter of time before the car analogies started. Nooooo......

Sorry :( But I just couldn't resist. I was going to go with cat and dog analogies but every one els had already beaten me to it :D

DogBoy
03-07-2008, 06:22 AM
I think full 64bit is a long way off. Look how long it took 32bit to become mainstream. 64bit Vista isn't up to snuff for a lot of companies, so I doubt 64bit ubiquity before 2010. I think (hope) v10 will be there before then so 32bit LW has some life yet.

mikala
03-07-2008, 06:49 PM
I picked Lightwave for what it can do, not for what it can't.
I use it for what it can do and simply figure out how to make it do something it's not supposed to do.
I'm happy it is continually upgraded and wait for each upgrade wondering what I will get next. More often then not it's a great surprise.

Speedmonk42
03-08-2008, 12:38 AM
Still no cats.

Must come back later.

rakker16mm
03-08-2008, 02:04 AM
I think full 64bit is a long way off. Look how long it took 32bit to become mainstream. 64bit Vista isn't up to snuff for a lot of companies, so I doubt 64bit ubiquity before 2010. I think (hope) v10 will be there before then so 32bit LW has some life yet.

Yeah this is definitely a case of the software lagging behind the hard ware. However since most of the new hardware is already 64 bit it doesn't make sense to keep writing 32 bit software. Apple hasn't made any 32 bit computers since the G4 and that was in 2003. It has taken Apple a long time to come out with a true 64 bit OS but it is finally here, and although I don't know too much about Vista, I am sure the are working hard to iron out the bugs. I can't see NT or any other software company investing too much into 32 bit code even if that code can run on a 64 bit machine. I also don't see any of this delaying V10 by a significant factor.

DiedonD
03-08-2008, 03:43 AM
I picked Lightwave for what it can do, not for what it can't.
I use it for what it can do and simply figure out how to make it do something it's not supposed to do.
I'm happy it is continually upgraded and wait for each upgrade wondering what I will get next. More often then not it's a great surprise.

Exactly. So far it covers most of things I need. Instancing is the only stop for me so far. That and Maestro issues, I hope them will change in this Beta too.

Sometimes I cant keep up with all the upgrades even...

michael roach
03-10-2008, 04:43 PM
omg