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Wonderpup
02-29-2008, 04:23 AM
Having contributed to some of the 'less productive' threads of late regarding 9.5, I thought it might be worth trying to work out what's going on.

There seem to be two different attitudes in play here. One is that 9.5 is a gift, and as a gift should not be questioned or criticised in any way, and anyone who does so is ungrateful.

The other is that 9.5 is part of what was paid for when lightwave 9 was purchased, and therefore is a legitimate target for critical comments.

So one persons legitimate negative comment, is seen by the other as a gross lack of gratitude, which is what a lot of the recent argumentative threads seem to have been about.

My perception was that in purchasing 9, i was buying not just the 9.0 release, but the point upgrades that came with it- and that was how 9 was marketed, as the first in series of planned 9.x updates that would lead us toward a more modern, integrated, application.

So when I see a major update that does not seem to be moving in the 'right' direction (as I see it) I feel justified in saying so, as I feel that I am not getting the features I paid for.

But I can see that to those who feel they are being given a free gift, my attitude is bizzare and unacceptable.


So I think we need to decide if the point releases are gifts, or part of what we buy into at upgrade time. And NT need to resist the temptation to boost the sales of any full point releases by danging any point upgrade carrots- just sell the release on it's exisiting merits.

I'd be interested to get other peoples thoughts- do you see the point upgrades as gifts, or as part of the asking price of a full point upgrade?

hazmat777
02-29-2008, 04:34 AM
The thing that has me concerned, is that we are getting images of some of the new features without much info at all about others. The impression is that they are selling on promises to gain new LWer's again.

hazmat777
02-29-2008, 04:48 AM
Personally, I don't care what they preview. I will get the next LW sight unseen, but I just think if they have a new marketing team like some have said...it's not off to a smooth start...Where's the :beta: :) :) :)

CAClark
02-29-2008, 04:52 AM
Gratitude doesn't come in to it. We purchased a product which as yet has failed to deliver on selling points promised in 9.0

Now NT can work 24/7 to get everything that is supposed to be there all present and correct... at which point they'll have done their jobs. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's easy to get carried away thinking 9.5 is some all problem solving gift, but the reality is it is simply a step toward the product being what it was is supposed to be. Hopefully.

I'm not against people seeing things their own way, but there is a general trend of not being able to accept other points of view, something I am sure I am guilty of just like most others here.

Cheers!

bobakabob
02-29-2008, 05:55 AM
Everyone here is a paying customer with expectations. Has anyone really called Lightwave 'a gift'? Doubt it. The whole point of a forum is to have constructive discussion about the software.

Unfortunately debate about LW's evolution occasionally turns into embarrassing rant filled threads full of cringe inducing "quotes". Feature requests are actually encouraged by Newtek and their forum netiquette is admirably open minded - imagine if Autodesk ran this forum - but shouting matches vandalise the threads.

On the plus side many Lightwavers make insightful criticisms of LW's shortcomings and do this in a tactful professional way. I suppose it's inevitable people want to compare features in other apps but the shouting makes the forum unreadable at times. It's not about gratitude, it's about showing professional respect to the developers hard working coders and beta testers. As Kurt Vonnegut wrote: "A little less love and a bit more common decency."

COBRASoft
02-29-2008, 05:56 AM
As a developer myself, I understand both views.

I have to make sure that all bugs and 'promised' new things are available in early point releases. In theory, LW v9.1 or v9.2 should have fixed all the bugs and v9.3 or 9.4 should take care of the made 'promises'. But if you look to e.g. Microsoft or Adobe... Even they can't keep their promises... Nevertheless, v9.5 could be used to introduce new aspects, like a 'lite' version of SAS of FFIV or Dynamite, which eventually should be the full version in v10.0 then (which would involve a natural upgrade cost).

Bug fixing and keeping promises is a must for every company. Adding extra features is a very nice gift...

Chuck
02-29-2008, 07:46 AM
And NT need to resist the temptation to boost the sales of any full point releases by danging any point upgrade carrots- just sell the release on it's exisiting merits.

Among the things that I and other NewTek staff have said on this forum and elsewhere is that the only reason to buy a NewTek product or an upgrade is for what is in it, never for what might becoming down the line. Tim Jenison is also noted for saying to customers that when your business needs capabilities that are not in our current product, we do not ask you to wait - we make our products to work well with other production tools and we understand and expect that folks will buy other production tools as needed to fufill the capabilities they need right when they need them. We do hope that when we add new capabilities, you'll come back for a look and go for the upgrade if it fits your needs and means.

We feel we are making an effort to market on the merits of the existing product; but we have also from time to time tried to accommodate the demand for information and assurance about the direction of the product. As you have noted, that gets taken as trying to talk folks into buying now for what they get later. That makes no more sense to us than it does you, please understand.

So what would you recommend in this regard? Should the policy for free feature updates not be mentioned, though some have expressed that it is an important consideration of cost of ownership versus products with not only higher initial purchase price but also subscription/maintenance fees? Should it be discontinued? Is the issue simply not ever discussing the future pojections, since in fact they are by nature so often subject to change?

cresshead
02-29-2008, 08:02 AM
some of lightwave's development has been painfully slow, in part to the old dev team jumping ship around lw 7.5 time and also the underlying capabilities with some aspects lightwave being stuck firmly in the mid 90's...such as the nr usless undo in layout, no instacing, no groups etc.

so the new dev team didn't have a mountain to climb...more like a new planet to visit!

it's been tough going by the looks of some of it..with cul de sac's they went down such as bringing modeler tools into layout being a major sticking point
and something now consigned not to happen for the foreseeable future on lightwave..so lightwave will continue to be 2 apps in 9x and not get joined up until maybe 2011+

on the positive side there's been some good development on the renderer and nodal and now they seem to have bought a fur plugin as well...
plus the addition of ies lighting finally is good to see...a few years behind 3dsmax but ahead of xsi in that depeartment

my main gripe is the bones/ik are much the same as lightwave 7.0...no movement forward so how exactly anyone will put fur to good use with 6+ year old character rigging/animation code is going to have a bit of a battle on their hands.

lightwave is still looking more like a 3d app for stills and 'flying boxes' than a full featured 3d app...nothing in that regard has changed since 1999 with lightwave 5.6...which then means people use other apps such as maya,xsi, messiah and 3dsmax for their character animation and bring that back in to render in lw...so with better import export tools..of which we have nr no details as yet at least there's a chink of light for better interop's with other apps in 9.5

so not all 'wonderful' but there is movement from newtek:thumbsup:
and generally heading in the right direction all be it at a slow pace.

*Pete*
02-29-2008, 08:07 AM
Personally, i like to know of new features that are planned...for many reasons, as for example the hair/fur addition that was totally unknown to us a week ago.
Some forumers bought hair/fur plugins just weeks ago, and now they are getting it for free...knowing of a planned feature would save them the money, or atleast give them more to think about before buyng the product.

the same goes for instancing...altough it is not planned (far as we know) for the future releases of LW 9.X, i do believe it will eventually appear...this keeps me from buyng HDInstance and forces me to create the desired results by cheating or using very limited options to achieve the desired results.

If instancing will not appear at all during 9.x series...i will have saved my money, but spent a lot of valuable time with working with different, complicated solutions instead of simply using HDInstance.

so, as far as i see it...a list of planned features should be released, but with a clear statement that the features are subject to change and might not appear at all, or that they might appear in a more limited form.

COBRASoft
02-29-2008, 08:09 AM
Well said Chuck!

People expect more and more from applications like LW. But, Maya and all those other 'great' products ask big upgrade fees and are far from perfect either, right?

I bought LW v8.5 and it included a free update to LW9.0... I want to see some anoying bug fixes too asap and some improvements like LWCAD alike snapping. On the other hand, v9.5 comes out with a lot of new features and bug fixes and I still don't have to pay for it. You have to be honest guys, this is impressive and deserves a big :thumbsup:

*Pete*
02-29-2008, 08:19 AM
9.0 was as improvement worth its money when compared with 8.5, and then came 9.2 and 9.3 that has made working with 9.0 to feel very slow, now we are about to get 9.5 with further improvements.

I take every update as a free, wellcome bonus...but i do understand people who are negative and only look for "what they paid for", but understanding doesnt mean agreeing with.

starbase1
02-29-2008, 08:24 AM
Gratitude doesn't come in to it. We purchased a product which as yet has failed to deliver on selling points promised in 9.0

Cheers!

Were they promises, or were they goals?

I do think that many on these forums (not picking you in particular), take a target, or statement of direction, as a promise.

And a lot of comments about the new hair system in particular have been daft beyond belief. Some people have looked at a rushed render from an early beta, and IMMEDIATELY started complaining that other software has a superior features based on this! It's dumb to expect the best in the industry on the first run of an early beta, but based on what are acknowledged as quick and dirty by the people who made them is dumb beyond belief...

Nick

MooseDog
02-29-2008, 08:27 AM
So what would you recommend in this regard? Should the policy for free feature updates not be mentioned, though some have expressed that it is an important consideration of cost of ownership versus products with not only higher initial purchase price but also subscription/maintenance fees? Should it be discontinued? Is the issue simply not ever discussing the future pojections, since in fact they are by nature so often subject to change?


my two cents are to continue with your current policy. on a strategic/competitive level it clearly separates you from the competition. as an analogy just like the 99 free render-nodes has a very clear impact in positively differentiating lw from other possible products.

as far as managing the feature refinement and release schedule, imho: using the web to engage an audience has no downsides (like in the old days it was said there's no such thing as bad publicity).

lots of talk (good, bad, indifferent, vitriolic, condescending, supportive, unthinking, critical, loud, soft, insightful, blind, happy, furious) benefits newtek and newtek's current and potential customers. each subset of people pulls out the information they need from the wall of talk, and decisions are made and directions set.

i also thought the idea of getting volunteers to register under "secret" names to share carefully selected features was a very clever:thumbsup: way to advance your business's goals and direction.

starbase1
02-29-2008, 08:33 AM
Well said Chuck!

People expect more and more from applications like LW. But, Maya and all those other 'great' products ask big upgrade fees and are far from perfect either, right?



Yes, well said. Of course new features sometimes take longer than expected to develop. What are Newtek meant to do? Hold back the entire release until it's ready?

Anyone whose has been around for more than 1 release will know that these guys are always working away at adding new stuff, and are pasionate about what they do.

Giacomo99
02-29-2008, 08:35 AM
...I and other NewTek staff have said on this forum and elsewhere is that the only reason to buy a NewTek product or an upgrade is for what is in it, never for what might becoming down the line.

That's reasonable. It would be great, however, if NewTek could give its users reports on the development of Lightwave and concrete assessments of its future, instead of what users get now: NDAs and semi-open betas and coy hints about upcoming features.

I might feel far different (for example) about the editing-weight-maps-in-Layout issue if I had any specific information as to how the problem is being addressed.

gerry_g
02-29-2008, 09:04 AM
Some brand new iteration of this or that is always coming out, this is just frustration or jealousy that others beet them to the toy box first, try looking at it the other way around, just how pissed would you be if nothing new ever came out

Wonderpup
02-29-2008, 09:13 AM
So what would you recommend in this regard? Should the policy for free feature updates not be mentioned,

I think that there is a real problem here with managing expecations. On the one hand the free point updates are a real benefit to being a lightwave user, and this should definately be publicised and mentioned as often as possible.

But if you then go further and speculate as to what these updates will contain, even in the most general of terms, then you create expectations and assumptions that may come back to bite you. In the case of 9, at the pre sale stage, the pitch was very much about the 9x series as a vehicle of radical change to the software. So at that time I was not being sold just 9, but a process called 9x, which I bought into.

I'm not implying bad faith here, just noting that the free updates, in this case, were being used in a very pivotal way in the pitch.

What seems to have caused a lot of the bad feeling on the 9.5 release is that there is ambiguity as to wether the point releases are gifts freely given or promises not fulfilled. So perhaps the way to go is to push the Gifts concept and to take the line that yes, there will be free updates, but as these are gifts freely given they must be surprise gifts, not to be unwrapped untill ready.

Projected in this way, no expectations will be created, no promises unfulfilled and no nasty arguments about ingratitude need arise.

wavemaster
02-29-2008, 09:31 AM
Now NT can work 24/7 to get everything that is supposed to be there all present and correct... at which point they'll have done their jobs. Nothing more, nothing less.
Cheers to you...


Among the things that I and other NewTek staff have said on this forum and elsewhere is that the only reason to buy a NewTek product or an upgrade is for what is in it, never for what might becoming down the line. Tim Jenison is also noted for saying to customers that when your business needs capabilities that are not in our current product, we do not ask you to wait - we make our products to work well with other production tools and we understand and expect that folks will buy other production tools as needed to fufill the capabilities they need right when they need them. We do hope that when we add new capabilities, you'll come back for a look and go for the upgrade if it fits your needs and means.

We feel we are making an effort to market on the merits of the existing product; but we have also from time to time tried to accommodate the demand for information and assurance about the direction of the product. As you have noted, that gets taken as trying to talk folks into buying now for what they get later. That makes no more sense to us than it does you, please understand.

So what would you recommend in this regard? Should the policy for free feature updates not be mentioned, though some have expressed that it is an important consideration of cost of ownership versus products with not only higher initial purchase price but also subscription/maintenance fees? Should it be discontinued? Is the issue simply not ever discussing the future pojections, since in fact they are by nature so often subject to change?

Every statement in this post is the biggest joke I have heard in a very long time!
It basically says... No matter what we promised in the past when 9.0 was released, you now got what you got. If you don't like it, then go buy other software that has what we promised for v9. When we finally get the features that we promised when you bought 9.0, then maybe you will buy our product
again! :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow


And to the rest that say the upgrade are free... "Be happy with what you get"
They are not! They were promised to us when 9 was being sold to add the features that we paid for that would not be delivered!!!

binarydisaster
02-29-2008, 09:34 AM
Maybe what would help NT out the most is open sourcing portions of the LW code. Look at the amazing stuff happening with Blender.
Everyone points out the extremely long dev time from NT. And I have heard it said that the source code for LW is extremely complicated. Open it up to the vast horde of enthusiastic LW users and witness amazing things start to happen.:lwicon:

-EsHrA-
02-29-2008, 09:46 AM
Cheers to you...



Every statement in this post is the biggest joke I have heard in a very long time!
It basically says... No matter what we promised in the past when 9.0 was released, you now got what you got. If you don't like it, then go buy other software that has what we promised for v9. When we finally get the features that we promised when you bought 9.0, then maybe you will buy our product
again! :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow


And to the rest that say the upgrade are free... "Be happy with what you get"
They are not! They were promised to us when 9 was being sold to add the features that we paid for that would not be delivered!!!


this is indeed familiar territory for chuck and nt, the same explanations again and again without fullfilling what was on the horizon as they made us believe.
Reborn? ehm... and now it almost seems it is our fault? .. brrrr ..


mlon

wavemaster
02-29-2008, 09:55 AM
this is indeed familiar territory for chuck and nt, the same explanations again and again without fullfilling what was on the horizon as they made us believe.
Reborn? ehm... and now it almost seems it is our fault? .. brrrr ..


mlon

To be honest... This is what I envision of the LW development.
A few guys scattered all over the place, and none of whom are actually doing the amount of work that can get done in a real 8 hour day of work!

-EsHrA-
02-29-2008, 09:59 AM
hey its not the coders ;)
i feel for them sincerly.


mlon

wavemaster
02-29-2008, 10:01 AM
Well someone aint doin there job! That is quite obvious!

KevinL
02-29-2008, 10:07 AM
I enjoy the way Newtek does it now. It is definitely different from a lot of vendors and that has plus and minus to it. What I personally always try to remember is that Newteks approach gives a lot of access to the "coding time" progress of the software. By this I mean that we have a large group of people who have paid for the privilege to access the "work in progress"

This has positive and negative results. The positive, which I consider to be huge, is that we get to , as users, provide feedback and have discourse about features, operation and quality that the coders have access to. They get rigorous testing and evaluation. I have found Newtek to be extremely responsive to the feedback and I also see them trying to accommodate a large number of wants among us the users. It is somewhat like the open source development model in terms of end user and coder interface.

One of the negatives of this approach is that we quite often get software with features and warts and issues. I have to remind myself that I am dealing with software that is being developed and yes I have paid for that privilege. I think this can lead to a great product, but that there is angst involved.

Another company I do business with takes the exact opposite approach. Adobe works to make an upgrade that is as rock solid as possible, feature locked, and tested as well as it can be. Then they release. Generally the software works pretty well, but there are usually still some bugs and also the thing that irritates the most is they will kill a feature that had been useful or critical. They seldom will admit to any problems by releasing a point update (unless it is terribly critical). They way I get (hopefully) my issues addressed is when they offer the next paid point upgrade. Worse, the development staff is firewalled and I can never get an answer without having to engage in their obscene paid support model which has never provided me with a useful solution. I always end up troubleshooting myself and wishing for a feature.

Of the two models I much prefer the Newtek way. I don't have a problem with people expressing dissatisfaction with stuff, I just don't like the strident, snotty tone it sometimes takes. All the bickering about "I paid for it and I damn well better get it or else I'm starting a Maya/fill in the blank vs Lightwave thread" got old for me 4 years ago. I think the opportunity to shape the software we use in conjunction with the coders is incredible. I also appreciate all the communities input. Of course ultimately if the Newtek approach doesn't work for someone they can always vote with their dollars at another vendors table.

Kevin L

Bookman
02-29-2008, 10:18 AM
In terms about what are being shown and what is not, did it ever occur to anyone that those features your really waiting to see may not be in a state of completion to the point where they can show it?

the explosion of people demanding this and that, and that they be let in to "the know" over a few pictures that IMHO were released to get people excited about what's coming up in LW I think was contrary. Yeah it can be frustrating that "you yourself" can't grab the controls. It's like going over to your friends house after he bought a awesome new game and not being allowed to play ;P. But I think people just need to take a step back and calm down. People I think made it more unlikely that they will do cool things like that again.

I think NT's doing all they can with what they have to work with to bring the users what they've been needing for a long time. Remember some of the new features are things we were told (by those other guys) wasn't possible from the core. IMHO the Dev team is kicking @$$ and taking names in giving us the best possible product they can.

Andyjaggy
02-29-2008, 10:30 AM
Were they promises, or were they goals?

Clark Just wants working CC's. Is that really so much to ask?

Steamthrower
02-29-2008, 10:41 AM
Lightwave CC's really do give me a pain in the posterior. It's like working with superheated Jello. I'd really like them to be a little more reliable/predictable/workable.

bobakabob
02-29-2008, 11:03 AM
We feel we are making an effort to market on the merits of the existing product; but we have also from time to time tried to accommodate the demand for information and assurance about the direction of the product. As you have noted, that gets taken as trying to talk folks into buying now for what they get later. That makes no more sense to us than it does you, please understand.

So what would you recommend in this regard? Should the policy for free feature updates not be mentioned, though some have expressed that it is an important consideration of cost of ownership versus products with not only higher initial purchase price but also subscription/maintenance fees? Should it be discontinued? Is the issue simply not ever discussing the future pojections, since in fact they are by nature so often subject to change?

Chuck, unfortunately it seems developers are damned if they do discuss future projections, damned if they don't. However the majority of users surely like to have a sense Lightwave is going forward. It's reassuring to read communications from Newtek and catch glimpses of new developments. The view that such feature updates are a marketing 'carrot on a stick' is understandable in such a fiercely competitive market but also a wee bit cynical.

Andyjaggy
02-29-2008, 11:13 AM
It would be so frustrating to be a developer. Can't please em all I guess.

geothefaust
02-29-2008, 11:24 AM
I for one, really enjoy that they reveal some information here and there about their products. The sad part is, that a lot of people assume too much, or just think the worst of what is being shown. I don't understand why people just can't take the information for what it is? Not promises or anything else.

Sure, I understand there was a feature list in the beginning of v9.xx cycle. Future features are not promises, they are plans, and as we ALL know here, plans change. So chill the hell out everyone. Relax. Have a drink. Eat some food. Take all things with stride.

Anyway, we're all Wavers here, so let's have a little more camaraderie and respect each other.

OOZZEE
02-29-2008, 11:36 AM
in through the nose, out through the mouth...

anybody need a chill pill ? I have some leftovers and I think some of us may need to take a few right now !!

I think NT is doing a good job and really improving the momentum on developement and I totally dig that direction... I truly think they are doing their best.

so those who thought they had an 'idea' of what to expect and expected it,only set themselves up to be let down.

Remeber DEATH AND TAXES..... ie NO ONE CAN GUARANTEE anything in the future no matter what was said in the past !!

the dev team folks are not wizards, or magicians that can snap their fingers and hey it`s done.

however, in the business world, there is always room for improvement and I do wish that NT have an improved policy on keeping their clients informed on developement.

There was a 3 month gap between the last build in open beta and the current announcement. In my opinion, that is too long. Every improvement in the upcoming release was not completed simultaneously therefor, it would have been open and honest to state it on the forums what has been completed thus far. no guessing and no fuss or muss.

Also, it would be nice for NT to admit what bugs they are aware of and what is being done about it, again being open and honest with their followers. I am not asking to post information on something that is not working so well and could be improved, like the 'undo', ( ie lack of funtionality)... but merely list of real problems that you know about and intend to fix.

It would also be cool of NT not to wait until the BIG ANNOUNCEMENT to release new builds. Fixing one bug can mean a whole lot to a user and releasing a build for the fix would mean the world to that person.... so maybe every five or ten minor bugs, you can re-compile and release ?

We have seen over and over in the forums the uprising so maybe it`s time to try something different.

and maybe a couple of new videos from William wouldn't hurt once in a while on a regular basis!! The last 24hr marathon was amazing !!

YA MORE VIDEOS, THATS WHAT WE NEED !!!!! hehe

COBRASoft
02-29-2008, 11:54 AM
I have beta-experience with Adobe, Microsoft, HP, Infragistics, ... and some other big companies. Believe me, the way NT does it, is one of the best, together with Microsoft (never thought I would say that). I was selected to be a beta tester of MS Office 2007, that was quite an experience!

What I've learned so far is, if you want to keep your customer 'satisfied', give them exact information like: we are planning hair and fur, we are doing CA at this very moment, we have no plans in the coming months to integrate modeler into layout. Yes, also say they things you're not planning on the short term, it would remove a lot of speculation on this forum.

colkai
02-29-2008, 12:55 PM
Some people, no matter what you say, will not be happy and frankly, it baffles me.
If they feel, as they so obviously do, that LW is so pathetic and the development woefully slow and the features years out of date and Newtek don't have a clue. Well, why in the name of all that is fluffy, do they keep going through the same motions. Move to another app that does the job they need now, if they feel they are wasting money with each upgrade, why the heck keep upgrading?

Even if Chuck, or Jay make a statement here, it is treated with disbelief, or worse, as a blatant lie. So, these folks do not trust Newtek, assume their employees are lying, are consistently offensive and yet expect to be taken seriously. Err, that would be a no.

It isn't about "promises", software developers tend not to make promises, hopes yes, desired goals for sure, promises, nope. My favourite phrase when I'm coding when asked if a feature will be there, "all things being equal, probably".

The fury around here lately is, well, heck, I can't even find the words to express my view of it, it's beyond all logic and reason.

I think I've added more people to my ignore list in 3 days than I have since I joined the forums!

wavemaster
02-29-2008, 01:02 PM
Some people, no matter what you say, will not be happy and frankly, it baffles me.
If they feel, as they so obviously do, that LW is so pathetic and the development woefully slow and the features years out of date and Newtek don't have a clue. Well, why in the name of all that is fluffy, do they keep going through the same motions. Move to another app that does the job they need now, if they feel they are wasting money with each upgrade, why the heck keep upgrading?

Even if Chuck, or Jay make a statement here, it is treated with disbelief, or worse, as a blatant lie. So, these folks do not trust Newtek, assume their employees are lying, are consistently offensive and yet expect to be taken seriously. Err, that would be a no.

It isn't about "promises", software developers tend not to make promises, hopes yes, desired goals for sure, promises, nope. My favourite phrase when I'm coding when asked if a feature will be there, "all things being equal, probably".

The fury around here lately is, well, heck, I can't even find the words to express my view of it, it's beyond all logic and reason.

I think I've added more people to my ignore list in 3 days than I have since I joined the forums!

That is a pretty bird... is it yours? What do you feed it?:hey:

3D|Dave
02-29-2008, 01:10 PM
I think there would be less griping if 9.X LW delivers a much needed faster OpenGL environment and solid CA tools equal to XSI, MAX or Maya.

And yes a lot of LW's have moved to other applications (myself included) but doing personal projects in those are time consuming and expensive to render so we still have a hold out that someday LW will be our saving grace.

You can do it NT, it just takes focus and commitment from managment.

rwhunt99
02-29-2008, 03:07 PM
My two cents:
I think Newtek shot themselves in the foot by cutting the price in half. How can you continue to move the application forward when, now it takes twice as many licences to bring in the same amount of money? That hurts R&D, because you can't bring in more programmers. It slows development, even though you might gain people who are willing to throw it in their toolbox, you are just spiinning your wheels. And; heaven forbid it might even appearto be a cheap, (i.e.) not very good (hobbyist) app to play with.

Cageman
02-29-2008, 03:35 PM
Gratitude doesn't come in to it. We purchased a product which as yet has failed to deliver on selling points promised in 9.0

The reason I bought LW8.3 was that I would get a free update to LW9.0 and the whole 9.x cycle. When reading up on what LW9.0 would offer, I noticed that several things were not slated for 9.0, but during 9.x cycle. I still can't say I havn't got what I've payed for, because my decision was based on two things; free update to 9.x and features during 9.x cycle. I'm quite surprised people missed this information, because if someone thought LW9.0 would include everything, they didn't do a proper research before purchase.

Cageman
02-29-2008, 03:38 PM
the same goes for instancing...altough it is not planned (far as we know) for the future releases of LW 9.X, i do believe it will eventually appear...

As far as I know, instancing is one of the things that has been promised during 9.x cycle.

zapper1998
02-29-2008, 03:59 PM
........................ WOW OMG ......................

*Pete*
02-29-2008, 03:59 PM
As far as I know, instancing is one of the things that has been promised during 9.x cycle.

I should have written "far as i know" ;)
i do know a lot of changes have been made specifically to allow for instancing, layout modelling and certain CA tools...but since instancing have been so quiet lately, layout modelling tools dropped for 9.x (due to unforeseen circumstances) and CA tools seem to get the first overhaul with the 9.5 beta, i just assumed that the fate of Instancing is unsure..even if i am hopefull.

Either way..instancing can be done with hdinstance, hair can be done with Sasquatch, Character animation can be done with Messiah..or even Maya.
for every feature that we do not have, there is a way to deal with it using plugins or other applications, and every feature we get eliminates the need for them...

I can understand that people would turn negative over not getting instancing with 9.5, but to get negative for getting hair/fur??, specially when none of us even tried it out or found out anything of its potential or workflow....
i just cant help feeling sorry for Newteks hardworking coders, Jay and Chuck...

IMI
02-29-2008, 04:21 PM
Excuse me, I seem to have lost my bearings.
Is the the bad thread, the not-as-bad-thread, the mean thread, or the fanboy thread?
At least I'm pretty sure it's not the kitty thread. ;)
Can someone help me find the thread that answers all this about LW? I'm dying to know how it turned out. :D

*Pete*
02-29-2008, 04:40 PM
Excuse me, I seem to have lost my bearings.
Is the the bad thread, the not-as-bad-thread, the mean thread, or the fanboy thread?
At least I'm pretty sure it's not the kitty thread. ;)
Can someone help me find the thread that answers all this about LW? I'm dying to know how it turned out. :D

the kitty thread is three post abowe, to the left next to the fanboy thread that later became the mean thread.
the best info about LW 9.5 is to be found in the kitty thread as it covers fur,kitten animation and several different lit scenes..theres even one black and white animation with furry kittens.
the kittens are quarded by a guy in Chuck Norris costume so that it will never become a bad or mean thread...be sure not to speak too loudly with either the kittens or Chuck, as he has lately been sensitive about such things and several people have been roundkicked away from the thread.

Wonderpup
02-29-2008, 04:48 PM
No one has so far addressed the question- are point updates to be seen as gifts and therefore exempt from critical anaylisis?

Or are they to be seen as pre purchased assets that are therefore subject to critical analysis?

My view is that they are pre purchased if their content has been previewed, since this will have influenced the decision to purchase.

But I know that many others think it shocking to question something they define as a free gift.

does anyone else have a view?

COBRASoft
02-29-2008, 05:04 PM
Wonderpup, I think I answered that question quite well. point releases are mainly for bug fixes and made 'promises'. point 5 and higher are normally for adding some new stuff or previews (and further bug fixes). But this is not a 'written' rule in development, it is just the most used method.

zapper1998
02-29-2008, 05:09 PM
Can we have 9.5 NOW


Please with lots of sugar on top....

Wonderpup
02-29-2008, 05:17 PM
Wonderpup, I think I answered that question quite well. point releases are mainly for bug fixes and made 'promises'. point 5 and higher are normally for adding some new stuff or previews (and further bug fixes). But this is not a 'written' rule in development, it is just the most used method.

My question was not really about the technical status of a free point update, but about it's moral status. A lot of people seem to belive that the free point upgrades have the moral status of gifts and so are beyond criticisem.

What is your view of the moral issue- are free point updates off limits for criticisem?

DragonFist
02-29-2008, 05:30 PM
Since, I bought the "9.x" cycle, I do not consider it a free gift. I, of course think that each is open to critical analysis.

However, such analysis should invovle comparing comparable things.

Comparing a the features of a free update to the features of a paid update without taking into account said prices is an unfair, imprecise analysis.

Comparing the features of a $600 package to a $3000 + subscription price package goes the same way.

So, in that light, when I see all the "<Fill in your overpriced 3D app here> has had <fill in feature here> for <fill in large integer here> years and now we get <insert feature that has been requested thousands of times in the forums here> instead of <previously mentioned feature of overpriced 3D App goes here again>. Newtek is <insert insulting accusation here>". I get just a little annoyed.

Of course, if you mention that they may be over stating it just a little bit, you become a baby that can't take criticism. And let me tell you <sarcasm> that really makes me feel fuzzy all over and want to give them a big hug.</sarcasm>

Anyhow, I think the question misses the point as the problem isn't whether or not one should criticize at all. It's about how rude can you be while doing it.

I personnally have not once seen on the forum (though I certainly could have missed some) some getting bashed for making a well stated and reasonable criticism. I have seen closed-threads, temp and perma bans and 60+ page flame wars started over one person, in the name of criticism, giving personall insults, or bashing the product or the company that is the very reason for these fourms.

So criticize all you wish. It's not a gift. But keep it civil. Use some logic. Compare comparable things. And don't criticize, something that is intended to show that feature x works by pointing out that the visual quality of feature y sucks when you(meaning anyone) know full well no effort was put into the visual quality of feature y.

Thank you for your co-operation,

Shawn

COBRASoft
02-29-2008, 06:01 PM
Wonder: let me try to give you a more acceptable answer to that question.

'You' may always have wellformed and thoughtfull criticism on updates (point release or full release). But, if 'you' criticize everytime on almost everything, like some people do on this forum, then 'you' don't have to blame the managment or the developers anymore. Then 'you' have to blame 'yourself' that 'you' are staying with the same program and paying even more upgrades. If 'you' are so unhappy, 'you' could always go to court :)


P.S.: The 'you' is not meant for you personally, but for anybody who wants to put criticism towards any software company. Developers have a difficult and mostly misunderstood job. So breaking their 'baby' down is far from encouraging for them, well paid or not.

Wonderpup
02-29-2008, 06:02 PM
Since, I bought the "9.x" cycle, I do not consider it a free gift. I, of course think that each is open to critical analysis.

It's interesting that you say you 'bought the 9.x cycle' not just 9 alone.

Is there anyone who is of the opposite view, who belives that the point updates are free and so ought not to be criticised?

bobakabob
02-29-2008, 06:05 PM
Comparing the features of a $600 package to a $3000 + subscription price package goes the same way.



Absolutely... it's easy to make exotic demands then forget what you paid for the software.

Wonderpup
02-29-2008, 06:07 PM
Hi COBRASoft

I'm still not clear if you would make a distinction between a paid ugrade and a free point upgrade when it came to expressing any critical views. Do you share the view that since the point upgrades are free, it is moraly objectionable to express any negative thoughts about them?

COBRASoft
02-29-2008, 06:18 PM
Wonder: I said that any critics are possible (possitive or negative, point or full release, paid or for free) as long as they are told in a thoughtfull and a respectfull way. You will gain nothing by braking a person or a company down.

For developers these kind of critics are very important. They are the guidelines for the future path of an application.

To express my personal feelings towards 9.5, the hair and fur are a very nice and even needed extra (bonus), but I think it get's way to much focus on this forum. The new lighttypes, improvements on the GI and all the other 'promised' things are more what I expected in the previews than the hair system. It gives the impression that it was the main goal for v9.5, which is sad and mostly misunderstood by many.

So Chuck and NT, allow some previews (1 or 2 good ones are enough) of the joints and other improvements. Show a screenshot or 2 and the forum will look totally different for sure. Once the beta is released, you will see enough hair and fur from the LW community. Proof, look how many dielectric examples and try-outs are out there...

prospector
02-29-2008, 06:24 PM
How can you continue to move the application forward when, now it takes twice as many licences to bring in the same amount of money?
I think Sam Walton was asked the same thing by shareholders.."How can you increase profits if you cut prices??"

Put your product in the hands of a greater pool of people and your profits will increase.

Same way less taxes bring more money to government.

Both work everytime they are tried.

Wonderpup
02-29-2008, 06:51 PM
Thanks COBRASoft.

Personaly I felt the way the new hair was presented, with rather lacklustre images, was a mistake, but the feature itself is great to have.

My criticisem was more about the fact that I would have preferred the resources to be directed towards delivering the original 9.x feature list, as third party hair options already existed.

But this is where I fell foul of the rule that states 'Thou shalt not dare to criticise a point update because it's free.'

There seemed to be a lot of people at the time who held this view quite strongly, but now they're a bit thin on the ground, which is a pity because it would be interesting to test the idea in more detail.

hazmat777
02-29-2008, 07:07 PM
I'm just kind of confused (actually I am most of the time about everything :) ) and I think that's where most of my nervousness comes from about this release.

NewTek said that they were at or "near to" a point in the code when updates when come more rapidly and (I think) more often. That was months and months ago.

Then the newsletters stopped not too long ago and the update that initially sounded great (and still does! Can't wait to try the new importers/exporters:I_Love_Ne ) started to make me think, "Well, fantastic, but I thought they were working on X, Y, Z and not this."

So I guess I'm just chiming in with some agreement with others here who have said that with limited funds (I'm guessing most folks here) and surprise (but not "planned") features coming soon, it gets hard to plan your software strategy.

Hence the friction?

two pennies and a wooden nickel

animotion
02-29-2008, 11:35 PM
Our renders are looking really SWEET.
Thank you NT. :)

Matt
03-01-2008, 12:16 AM
Allllllll together now, <group hug> ahhhhhhh, there's a lot of love in this room!

:D

Dodgy
03-01-2008, 12:24 AM
my main gripe is the bones/ik are much the same as lightwave 7.0...no movement forward so how exactly anyone will put fur to good use with 6+ year old character rigging/animation code is going to have a bit of a battle on their hands.

Well you'll have new bones and Ik in 9.5 according to the press release.

I would hope they can fix CC's for 9.5-xx, I'm expecting the modeler/layout integration to come in 10 now, since it seems like a very big job.

rakker16mm
03-01-2008, 01:07 AM
I upgraded from 8.5 to 9.3 for what was in 9.3 and not for what might be in it in the future.

I don't have any expectations at all concerning updates. They come when they come, and they are what they are, and that is all there is to it. I will always hope more new features will be added but hoping and wishing usually turns out to be a waste of my time. After all in a lot of other applications point upgrades seem to be more about fixing bugs and adding stability rather than adding new features.

I don't see point upgrades as gifts nor do I feel they are owed to me. I frankly couldn't care less about how others feel about it, but I do think it is rather silly to rant about something you haven't had a chance to try out. If there is any one I do feel for, it is the people who are working hard to add the new features and fix the old bugs.

I don't know how any one else here feels but I personally can't stand it when people are looking over my shoulder and critiquing my work based on a few preliminary test renders. Some people complain that NT is too tightlipped about upcoming features, but then look how they are getting trashed in these threads.

*Pete*
03-01-2008, 02:54 AM
Personaly I felt the way the new hair was presented, with rather lacklustre images, was a mistake, but the feature itself is great to have.


Becouse you made the mistake of looking for what was not presented, instead of what was.

you were looking for the ideal result created by a talented artist in real life production/art..you were looking for the artists personal touch and talent more than the hair/fur as such.

I was looking for more technical things...
the first images showed only very thin fibers, good for hair but not for carpets or fur.
other images showed thick, curly fibers, good for carpets and fur.
then some images showed reflection and refraction, something Sasquatch never was able to deliver.
some images showed that you can color the fur with texturemaps..
and so on...

i picked up, of all the different images that FiberX can do the following:
reflect.
refract.
animate/dynamics.
fiber thicknes.
fiber curls.
colored fibers (using texture maps).

all of those smal details, shown in many different hairy balls that by themselfs werent artistically impressive, convinced me that in my hands, FiberX can be used to create what i want to create..that being good quality hair/fur/grass/carpets that will work with reflections and refractions.
what more can i ask for?..its perfect.
your mistake is looking for what OTHERS can do with FiberX, and therefore mistakingly expecting it only to be able to produce hairy balls (well, maybe not...but the critisism of FiberX makes me almost to believe it).



My criticisem was more about the fact that I would have preferred the resources to be directed towards delivering the original 9.x feature list, as third party hair options already existed.


once again, FiberFactory 4 (FF4) is a third party hair option..you could buy it, or you could get it for free with LW 9.5.
NT for sure paid for it in order to get it into 9.5 and now they give it to you..free of charge.
nobody knows for sure, but it is possible that the FF4 programmer is now part of Newtek team, and thus an extra resource for further LW development.
did you think that they took one of the render/ca/modeller specialists and gave him the task to create a hair feature from scratch?..not likely.
so, in theory LW has more resources thanks to FiberX, and you will not need to buy a third party hair plugin.



But this is where I fell foul of the rule that states 'Thou shalt not dare to criticise a point update because it's free.'


Critisism is important and wellcome, as feature requests, bugreports and general critisism on valid subjects.
LW 9.5 will deliver.
IES lights (and more light functions).
improved renderer (and interpolated reflection/refraction. THANKS NT!!:thumbsup: )
CA tools (mainly unknown in performance)
Hair/Fur function. (the only subject for critisism so far).

while you may or may not disagree on whether or not NT made the right choise posting pre-beta images/features, or whether or not it is unfair that only some people were allowed to be pre-beta testers, i cant see why Hair and Fur becomes the main subject of critisism...

what exactly made the forum become so hostile??..any answer for that?
dont say that it is becouse you didnt get feature X, as 9.5 is not necessarily the last FREE update that we are about to get, and it is a very clear possibility for new features to be added during the open beta phase..

COBRASoft
03-01-2008, 05:03 AM
*Pete*: I think the forum became so hostile because a lot of people are quite selfish. They want 'their' features of the long list to be implemented first.

I have a long list for my own application too, mainly coming from my customers through mails and phonecalls (I have no forum yet, lucky :)). What do I implement? Well, it depends on a lot of factors: really needed or not (or is there a useable workaround for the moment like HD Instance), internal analysis ready or not (sometimes this takes longer than forseen), is the core ready for the new feature or not, ...

So, if NT said to us they will deliver something in 9.X, they didn't say it will be delivered in 9.5. Who knows what more they've changed to prepare the core for instancing or whatever. And with the new import/export, LW is probably more useable in production environments than ever. It think 9.5 has a big potential to have a bigger asset in the overall market again, which is very important for the survival of NT.

Wonderpup
03-01-2008, 05:33 AM
what exactly made the forum become so hostile??..any answer for that?

I started this thread to try to clarify at least one reason for the hostility, which is the apparant disagreement as to wether it is ok to be critical about free ugrades. ( I note that you have chosen to put the word FREE in upper case in your reply to me, which does indicate you feel a bit annoyed with people who are critical of free updates. So there is some implied hostility there, I think.)

I suppose the question I am asking is, am I allowed to question a situation where I see features being added that I neither need or want, while the features I feel I actualy paid for are (apparantly) not happening? Is this acceptable- or, as your capitalisation of the word FREE inplies, is it a bad thing for me to do?

IMI
03-01-2008, 06:07 AM
I suppose the question I am asking is, am I allowed to question a situation where I see features being added that I neither need or want, while the features I feel I actualy paid for are (apparantly) not happening? Is this acceptable- or, as your capitalisation of the word FREE inplies, is it a bad thing for me to do?


What does it matter?
Far as I know you're "allowed" to have any kind of opinion at all, one way or the other.
Is it "OK" to disagree with something free? Sure it is. And no, it's not. It just depends on who you're talking to. ;)
How can there be a definitive answer to something based entirely on opinion? Half the people here will agree with you, while the other half will disagree. but in the end all that matters is what *you* think. Unless you need approval for your opinions, in which case this will keep going around and around and around...
Are you running for some sort of political office here or something? ;)

Cageman
03-01-2008, 06:09 AM
I suppose the question I am asking is, am I allowed to question a situation where I see features being added that I neither need or want, while the features I feel I actualy paid for are (apparantly) not happening? Is this acceptable- or, as your capitalisation of the word FREE inplies, is it a bad thing for me to do?

Wait until LW9.x is finished to get your answer. If you bought into 9.0 you should already be on the fence (which seems you are) :). If you bought into 9.x cycle (which I and many others did) you should probably wait untill 9.x cycle is finished to see what you got vs what you were promised.

While FibreFX was an unexpected update for 9.x I believe that NT somewhere said they wanted to do Hair/Fur. Wether it was slated for 9.x or 10.x I can't remember. However, many of the rendering gurus have been shouting for updated lights. Actually, lights in LW have been one of the things that can let you down/hold you back. With 9.5, not only have they recoded the whole lightsystem; they added a Light API (unheard of in LW until now) and added some other welcome enhancements, such as integrated photometric lights (IES) and a new Spherical light (is that one photometric as well?).

Also, yet to hear anything about, is the Collada and FBX support which also were promised during the 9.x cycle (at least FBX). Those two have been shouted about alot as well and now we have them (well, as soon as OB is released). There were promises that LW9.x would get CA updates. We now have multithreaded mesh deformation evaluation, new bonetype, new IK-solver.

So, looking at what the 9.x cycle has delivered so far (depending of how some of the improvements work out), I'll have to say that I'm finding it harder and harder to critizise NT for not delivering on their promises. As I said, I bought into the 9.x cycle... not LW9.0 itself.

Wonderpup
03-01-2008, 06:24 AM
Far as I know you're "allowed" to have any kind of opinion at all

I think you are unusualy tolorant- quite a few seem to find it outrageous that anyone should dare to be critical of a FREE update. (the word FREE gets capitalised a lot I notice.)


Are you running for some sort of political office here or something?

Because I choose to present my arguments in a (relatively) non inflamatory way?

I'm just interested to see if it's possible to run an idea to ground on a forum like this- so far it's proving a very slippery exercise. I don't think Chuck gets paid enough.

Wonderpup
03-01-2008, 06:29 AM
Wait until LW9.x is finished to get your answer

My question right now is about the moral issue of being critical of FREE updates (I like it in caps now.) rather that the future of 9.x itself.

What is noteworthy is the fact that not a single person has come out in favour of the idea that one should not be critical of FREE updates, despite the fact that there seemed to be a lot people saying just this quite recently. Where are they?

IMI
03-01-2008, 07:19 AM
Because I choose to present my arguments in a (relatively) non inflamatory way?

I'm just interested to see if it's possible to run an idea to ground on a forum like this- so far it's proving a very slippery exercise. I don't think Chuck gets paid enough.

No, not at all, it was just a joke. Maybe a bad one. :)
I was just reminded of the way our politicians seek approval for every opinion they have, and change them to suit if they're unpopular opinions.
Until they get elected, that is, but that's a whole 'nother topic altogether. ;)

IMI
03-01-2008, 07:33 AM
My question right now is about the moral issue of being critical of FREE updates (I like it in caps now.) rather that the future of 9.x itself.

What is noteworthy is the fact that not a single person has come out in favour of the idea that one should not be critical of FREE updates, despite the fact that there seemed to be a lot people saying just this quite recently. Where are they?

Well, *I* don't think people should be critical of FREE updates, generally, but in that sense I mean publically critical.
UNLESS, the NT developers say, "hey guys, what do you think of this?" and are asking for feedback.
HOWEVER, that's in the case that it's just some out-of-the-blue update nobody was expecting; just a gift, a surprise, maybe.
There is, however, great validity to the argument that if a certain feature is *promised* but is *replaced* by something else, or left out entirely, then all hell should break loose with the criticism.
IMO, it's not right then for people to criticize the critics. The argument, ...but it's sooo kewl what they've done here! doesn't change the fact that one got something else than what he was promised at the time of purchase.

Although, also IMO, any criticism should be done respectfully. It's just classier than whining and crying and generally more productive than throwing a public fit. Respectful posts probably sit better with the developers anyway, even if they are harshly critical.

As has been pointed out though, the cycle isn't through yet, and it shouldn't simply be taken for granted that all we've seen is all they're offering.

andywright
03-01-2008, 07:36 AM
I think the issue of FREE upgrades is a red herring.

They are not free, we paid for the 9.X development cycle when we bought the package at 9.0. We also bought it based on the promises of what would be introduced in the 9.x cycle.

The key thing is there is nothing saying the 9.x cycle is finished yet, and the complaints so far are about a .5 release which is in beta ! We need to give the Newtek team time to finalise this release and then start on the next before criticising whats in 9.5 and we will have a legitimate reason to cry foul if they get to 10.x, asking for payment, if they haven't delivered what they said would be in 9.x

The other model Newtek could use to stop this sort of arguement is they sell 10.x ONLY on the basis of what is working in that release (so you get what you pay for immeditely) and then only ask for more money at point releases that introduce new features (not bug fixes). This is the approach Cinema 4D use.

Thomas M.
03-01-2008, 07:49 AM
I'd say people tend to be upset or even hostile, also I'd call this hyper-critical, as the development speed of LW tends to be rather slow. At least if you compare it to all other products in the 3D market. We've fallen behind competition and that's bad, as we need to compete with other users on the 3D market, who how a much better toolset.

When a lot of us purchased our first version of LW we paid rather a lot for it. Now prices are cheaper. I don't care about how much they charge as long it is reasonable. But I want a professional tool with the latest functions available. SubPixelDisplacement is still after all these years no part of LW. Also APS is quite nice, it's no replacement. And probably it will win the worest memory management award.

So if LW 9 doesn't even have the features 3dMax or Cd4 provide, then I need to ask myself what's going on at NT. LW used to be ahead, at lest compared to C4D. Hopefully the new tools of the 9.5 will come in handy and be an earnest approach of catching up with LW's rivals.

*Pete*
03-01-2008, 07:51 AM
( I note that you have chosen to put the word FREE in upper case in your reply to me, which does indicate you feel a bit annoyed with people who are critical of free updates. So there is some implied hostility there, I think.)

i used the word "free" trying to point out that even if you paid for certain features that hasnt yet been released with the 9.X series, the Hair and Fur stuff was never promised as a feature that would come with the 9.x series, nor has it ever been implied that it was even planned.

so in that sence, its is a totally free feature that has nothing what so ever to do with your purhace of LW 9.

the same goes for IES lights and in a way to the recent renderer improvements.

the only "promised" feature you are about to get is CA tool improvements...and so far there has not been a single complaint about it, the same with the lack of instancing that also has been promised.

the complaints/critisism made under the statement "we paid for [insert feature]" doesnt apply for exactly those things the complaints/critisism is about...and in my opinion its incredibly unfair, as you can be certain over the fact that FiberX didnt come for free into LW, but you do get it for free..and complain.

eh..i better put the popular disclaimer that "you", even in this reply means "many, and not you personally".

*Pete*
03-01-2008, 08:00 AM
Since all of us have different needs, and mine seem to be just about fulfilled..perhaps only instancing is lacking now.

what exactly did you, critics and fanboys alike expect to get during the 9.X series..what features are missing, what would you like to see NT deliver?

as i mentioned, i just need instancing and my needs are satisfied for the time being.
id like to know your (in plural) needs.

Wonderpup
03-01-2008, 08:28 AM
They are not free, we paid for the 9.X development cycle when we bought the package at 9.0. We also bought it based on the promises of what would be introduced in the 9.x cycle.

So, in fact, there are no free updates. And all those people typing FREE in caps are getting hot and bothered for no reason at all. Which is quite odd really.

IMI
03-01-2008, 08:46 AM
I was just typing it in caps because I thought that's how we're supposed to be typing it here. ;)

Wonderpup
03-01-2008, 08:51 AM
as i mentioned, i just need instancing and my needs are satisfied for the time being.
id like to know your (in plural) needs.

About two years,ago I had identified the need for a more integrated workflow. I was in fact just about to purchase XSI when the feature set of the 9x series was posted online. As this projected list included an integrated modeler/layout arrangement, I chose instead to stay with lightwave.

This turned out to be a mistake, as the integrated version proved problematic to deliver. Worse, because I was waiting for NT , I kept putting off purchasing XSI, sure that the integrated version was 'just around the corner.'

Obviosly I am not happy with the failure to deliver. And I was more unhappy still that NT did not take the trouble to tell me that this feature had dropped off the 9.x radar. This nugget of information I stumbled across by accident.

So you can see that when unscheduled features pop up in updates, I do find myself wondering if that time and money could have been spent elsewhere.

But, since we have now established that there are in fact no free updates, I can at least pass comments like these without being buried alive in FREE UPDATE posts.

*Pete*
03-01-2008, 08:52 AM
technically nothing is for free, as what ever is given to us has been paid for.

but realistically seen, Nt could charge for the updates once more and give us the same stuff as are now getting as "free point upgrades".

ill just have to remind you guys that most 3d companies do take paid for every update, some even take paid for bugfixes.
so while technically we paid for the updates, we even paid for chucks responses on this post, we paid for the free tshirts and caps we sometimes are awarded, i have no problems calling the updates and other things for being for free.

heh..there is no free healthcare as its paid with tax money..perhaps the only thing free is free speech..and even that is protected by law and as such...paid for by you.

*Pete*
03-01-2008, 09:00 AM
As this projected list included an integrated modeler/layout arrangement

you mean modeller functions in layout?? you got unlucky, as thats one of the things that will not happen in 9.X
as previously explained by NT, they had working solution ready and done..but it turned out to be near impossible to implement due to unforeseen complications with the old LW coding.

its not a lack of will by NT. but a tough reality where choices had to be made..instead of going all out for dealing with that feature, perhaps it could take a year even, to get it work out well enough, they decided to leave it for now and instead give us other features at a more steady pace.

but thanks for letting us know what has made you upset..it is understandable.
we all have different needs..and for me that feature would be usefull, but not critical.

Thomas M.
03-01-2008, 09:08 AM
What if you payed for a flight to NY and half-during the flight the attendance would approach you, asking for more money, as the menu has changed and it's now Champagne and not any longer lemonade. If you wouldn't pay they'd kindly ask you to leave to plane in mid-air.

I'd say there's something completely wrong with that airline. So, there's no way for NT to ask for more money, until they fulfilled their part of the agreement given when they asked you to pre-order LW 9.0.

Afterwards I'd be glad to pay for more knowing that it'll pay off during work because of the big improvements in workflow.

Sarford
03-01-2008, 09:31 AM
We DO have free updates with LW. If we didn't have free updates, NT would be charging for 9.5. This is what is meant with free updates.

And to whine about these updates is realy strange in my eyes. Can you complain? Yes and no. Yes, you can complain about the working of the options already delivered, like CC for instance. No, you can't complain about options GOING to be delivered, especialy not while being free.

When I bought LightWave, I bought LightWave as is. That they said I got free (their words) updates was a bonus to me. The list of targets looked prommissing to me, I (could) get that for free, great. But I bought LightWave for the way it WAS then (8.3), NOT they way it might eventualy become. That would be stupid, why would I buy half finished software?

When later LightWave couldn't handle my projects in a way that I would like, I bought other software to complete my pipeline. That software (XSI essentials) I also bought for the way it is NOW, not on features it might someday posess.

So, in short, I can't realy understand the whiners. If the software doesn't do what you want it to do, buy another package. If you are a professional, that shouldn't pose too much of a problem.

*Pete*
03-01-2008, 09:32 AM
airplane analogies!!! :D

thats something new ;)

well...LW as a airplane company promises you a flight to Egypts main airport, but thanks to a severe sandstorm they find it necessary to land at an other airport, however...you will get lots of gifts from the company as compensation, furry pillows and such.
they let you know that they are sorry for not reaching to the main airport of Egypt, but atleast you arrived at Egypt and you still have the option to use external transportation to get to the capital..taxi, bus, rental.

that is the current situation...it turned out to be a dangerous decision to focus all out on one feature that turned out to be far more difficult and timeconsuming that expected.

you do get lots of other features that werent supposed to come with 9.x..that is the fact, thats how things are.
i understand that you're upset, so does NT.
i quess that if you really feel deceived, NT will be helpfull with refunding your 9.x in return of the dongle...i doubt an airplane company would do the same.

Sarford
03-01-2008, 09:34 AM
What if you payed for a flight to NY and half-during the flight the attendance would approach you, asking for more money, as the menu has changed and it's now Champagne and not any longer lemonade. If you wouldn't pay they'd kindly ask you to leave to plane in mid-air.

I'd say there's something completely wrong with that airline. So, there's no way for NT to ask for more money, until they fulfilled their part of the agreement given when they asked you to pre-order LW 9.0.

Afterwards I'd be glad to pay for more knowing that it'll pay off during work because of the big improvements in workflow.

I'm sorry, but I find this an unbelievably stupid comparison. Do you REALY find stop using LightWave the same as a ten kilometer drop? If so, you are more of a fanboy than I would have guessed.

Wonderpup
03-01-2008, 09:43 AM
i have no problems calling the updates and other things for being for free.

The problem is that once you define them as FREE, people seem to get all excited if you then criticise them. And since they are not free, would it not be better avoid the confusion and just say that they are a paid for benifit of being a Lightwave user?

*Pete*
03-01-2008, 09:51 AM
The problem is that once you define them as FREE, people seem to get all excited if you then criticise them. And since they are not free, would it not be better avoid the confusion and just say that they are a paid for benifit of being a Lightwave user?

at my local gas station they sell a coffey cup...buying it means you get a free refill, as often as you want during one full year.

is it free or not?...according to logic, no..its not, as you paid for the coffey cup.
but since the coffey you will drink during the year costs more than the cup itself, it is no money made for the gas station..so it is for free, no?

you're trying to look for definition for the word "free" in order to legitimise your complaints...but its a difficult thing to define, everything has a price...was 9.0 worth its price for you? if no then i understand why you dont consider the updates for being for free..but you wont get the same much "bang for the buck" anywhere else, besides by using Blender thats is totally for free.

you would be happier with max or maya where you pay a subscription fee, atleast you wouldnt need to worry about getting less than you pay for..eh? ;)

DragonFist
03-01-2008, 09:54 AM
The problem is that once you define them as FREE, people seem to get all excited if you then criticise them. And since they are not free, would it not be better avoid the confusion and just say that they are a paid for benifit of being a Lightwave user?

I really, really think that you are missing the point. I can't speak for everyone, but I couldn't care less if you or anyone complained about a valid point for valid reasons. Complaining that they added hair for free because they haven't added feature x yet will get a "why are you complaining about a free bonus?" response because the complaint doesn't make sense.

In this case, feature x doesn't exist. That's what one should complain about. I personnaly get a little bent out of shape because I wanted hair. Why are you complaining about me getting hair? You want to complain about not having feature x, go for it. But stop trying to get them to not give me the hair/fur that I want.

Disclaimer: Once again you = anyone, not you personally.

That's the problem as I see it. That and the fact that some people just can't be civil about their complaints and have to resort to insults and accusations of wrong-doing and deception.

Wonderpup
03-01-2008, 10:01 AM
We DO have free updates with LW. If we didn't have free updates, NT would be charging for 9.5. This is what is meant with free updates.

No, we dont have FREE updates, since these updates are promoted as a benifit of purchasing the software, they are part of what you pay for.


And to whine about these updates is realy strange in my eyes.

If the updates are promoted as a benifit of purchasing the software, and then not delivered, then is it not legitimate to complain? The moment NT tries to leverage the point updates as a reason to purchase the software, which in the case of 9 they did, then the notion of FREE does not apply.

*Pete*
03-01-2008, 10:06 AM
updates, free of any additional charge....

Wonderpup
03-01-2008, 10:22 AM
Complaining that they added hair for free because they haven't added feature x yet will get a "why are you complaining about a free bonus?" response because the complaint doesn't make sense.

Because it's not a FREE bonus- I paid for those updates when I purchased lightwave 9- except that when I paid hair was not on the list. I think it's great they added hair, but it's not what I paid for- do you see?

Again the real problem here seems to be with this notion of FREE. Because it FREE I can't say anything about it, right?

Sarford
03-01-2008, 10:24 AM
No, we dont have FREE updates, since these updates are promoted as a benifit of purchasing the software, they are part of what you pay for.

Well, there you have it then. That is the difference. You see the updates as paid updates couse you think you paid for 9.0 PLUS all the updates till 10.0
I see the updates as free updates cous I think I paid only for 9.0.

To me, free updates, compared with other software, means bug-updates, period. Here at NewTek I get new FEATURES in updates. To me that is a big bonus. But then again, I buy software for the features it HAS, not for features its gonna get, prommised or not.

lardbros
03-01-2008, 10:34 AM
But the big difference here is that people like you are discrediting Newtek as if they are doing it in spite.

It just happens that the job of integrating modeller tools into Layout is a MAHOOSIVE task... not capable of delivering it even with the many tools and huge amounts of time that have made it into 9.x so far.

What people seem to be failing to see is that things don't always pan out. They took a look at the ENTIRE lightwave package, and at some point had to think... the whole thing needs re-doing. Right, well we'll start where many people complain... integration.

They probably began and haven't stopped on this one... and realised as time went on and their delivery dates for updates was getting smaller that they weren't going to get this sorted for 9. Yes, a shame, but not anything to cry about. The list was a preliminary one, and they sure as hell won't be doing any of those in the near future.

I'm not saying people should be grateful of what they get, nor be happy that the updates that aren't paid for in the same way as Autodesk's products. But if you're just moaning about LW and how you feel cheated and lied to and abused, and used, then talk to the CEO or Private message one of the actual Newtek people. It doesn't help any of us lot, and we are the last people on earrth who really need to hear what other people think if it's so negative!

The bottom line is, you pay money for software and take a chance that it'll do what you want and that it's upgrades are also what you want and fix the outstanding bugs. As a 3dsMax user at work and we have many subscriptions for all our licenses, we NEVER receive emails much time before the release of the latest version. Infact it's usually only a month.

EVERY time we get the list, it is exciting, but you read through it and it's stark and bare, nothing there at all. Yes, newtek still have a massive uphill struggle to get Lightwave where it could be in the future, but 1) it won't help arguing with people on these fora and making Newtek's team feel like they aren't doing a good job or 2) go use some other software package and don't look back. You have nothing to lose, apart from maybe a lack of new features with each new upgrade from the competitors at Autodesk.

By the way, with Lightwave we get a bug fix for major bugs found... i had to struggle with a MAJOR bug in 3ds MAX for AGES until they released the subscription update, and even now it's still got bugs in what i'm trying to do.

and get this, their forums won't allow discussions on bugs, so try to find workarounds for your issues and your thread will be removed!! This bloody forum will let you chat about XSI, modo, Max to your hearts content, and if you're that way inclined!

I think people should bite their lip before saying things that could ruin the future development of Lightwave for the rest of us. Yes, a forum is a place to moan, but not to disrespect a company, whose own forum it is, and who is clearly doing a lot of work for the benefit of us!

andywright
03-01-2008, 10:48 AM
I think people should bite their lip before saying things that could ruin the future development of Lightwave for the rest of us. Yes, a forum is a place to moan, but not to disrespect a company, whose own forum it is, and who is clearly doing a lot of work for the benefit of us!


I agree with the sentiment...constructive feedback in the open Beta, highlight bugs in the final versions and help find workarounds in the meantime. Thats what these Forums are for (not sure if Fora is the correct plural :D ) But most of all, let Newtek get on with their job (and i am not a fanboy...I use a range of software as most do here from what I have heard, and ALL of them have their bugs)

Ernest
03-01-2008, 11:28 AM
technically nothing is for free, as what ever is given to us has been paid for.

heh..there is no free healthcare as its paid with tax money..perhaps the only thing free is free speech..and even that is protected by law and as such...paid for by you.

Hey! If there are any nice animator ladies in da house, I'm FREE!


Because it's not a FREE bonus- I paid for those updates when I purchased lightwave 9- except that when I paid hair was not on the list. I think it's great they added hair, but it's not what I paid for- do you see?

Again the real problem here seems to be with this notion of FREE. Because it FREE I can't say anything about it, right? Nope, that's not it.

People are not telling you that you can't criticize it because they really think that being free makes it special. Free is an excuse. They would say anything so that you won't criticize it. If the update was not free, they would still be telling you that you can't criticize it, they would just be using a different excuse.

What they really don't want is that anyone criticizes the beta outside of the beta forum because there it won't have a strong, negative marketing impact. For some strange reason they want criticism to happen in the area designed for it, where it will be properly channelled to the dev team and where it will not scare off new users whoc ould pour in more development resources that would benefit all of us.

Keeping with the airplane analogies that I'm starting to love, you have to know what your actions will get you. If your ticket sayd that you'd get chicken soup in your flight and halfway through the ocean they start serving lunch and they only have turkey soup, you have to start wondering if spitting on the turkey soup because it's not the one you expected will make the situation better for you or worse.

Wonderpup
03-01-2008, 12:27 PM
Well, there you have it then. That is the difference. You see the updates as paid updates couse you think you paid for 9.0 PLUS all the updates till 10.0
I see the updates as free updates cous I think I paid only for 9.0.

That sums it up pretty well. I feel I was encouraged to act on information that subsequently turned out to be less solid than it was presented.

But basicly I agree that with you, lardbros and andywright that discussions like this are pointless and destructive. I know very well that Newtek are not the bad guys- I'm actualy arguing here for the sake of it. In fact I would say that to some extent I'm addicted to it, which is why I've decided to stop posting completely

I think the reason that the forums are so negative is because we have all to some extent become addicted to that negativity- why this has come about I don't know. The forums were pretty poisonous when I arrived- there was a guy called CIM who was like oddity on steriods- he eventually migrated to Maya I think. Maybe it's boredom, things aren't happening fast enough so it's the ferrets in a sack syndrome,we start biting each other for something to do.

I think I shall return to the land of the lurkers from whence I came.

kopperdrake
03-01-2008, 12:46 PM
They say that idle keyboards make devil's work ;) If we all just worked a bit more we wouldn't have time to post :D We need a 'this is what I built with my valuable flaming time' thread...

rakker16mm
03-01-2008, 12:46 PM
Actually the forum is not really negative at all, but rather some of the posts have been. Consider the fact that even as active as these threads are, most of that activity is by just a few people going at it tit for tat. You have to ask how many people aren't even bothering to respond at all. Having said that this is one more productive threads concerning this topic.

*Pete*
03-01-2008, 12:47 PM
so...time for a group hug? ;)

Wonderpup..you are very correct with your last post.
my quess about the negativity is that it usually starts as innocent critisism/complaining, but atracts fanboys and LW haters (we have those here too) who come in to argue or agree with the critism..then it spirals off and we are all taken more far away from our original position than we would want to.

i find it sad that we arent getting any new images/info of 9.5 anymore, and that many people have gotten into defensive positions from where its difficult to come back from...but worse i quess, it is for NT dev team.

all in all..in these recent discussions, we all lost.

i think its about time for some kitten pictures here...

*Pete*
03-01-2008, 12:51 PM
look what the heated arguments have achieved...GLOBAL WARMING and SINKING POLARBEARS!!

IMI
03-01-2008, 01:12 PM
look what the heated arguments have achieved...GLOBAL WARMING and SINKING POLARBEARS!!


Well, that sucks.
I hope the polar bears can forgive me for my part in this, however minor.
On the other hand, if he had a chance, he'd kill me soon as look at me, so I don't feel too bad about it. ;)

simpfendoerfer
03-01-2008, 01:29 PM
I would be willing to pay more if it would make Lightwave better faster.

kopperdrake
03-01-2008, 02:00 PM
Likewise.

bobakabob
03-01-2008, 03:22 PM
But the big difference here is that people like you are discrediting Newtek as if they are doing it in spite.

It just happens that the job of integrating modeller tools into Layout is a MAHOOSIVE task... not capable of delivering it even with the many tools and huge amounts of time that have made it into 9.x so far.

What people seem to be failing to see is that things don't always pan out. They took a look at the ENTIRE lightwave package, and at some point had to think... the whole thing needs re-doing. Right, well we'll start where many people complain... integration.

They probably began and haven't stopped on this one... and realised as time went on and their delivery dates for updates was getting smaller that they weren't going to get this sorted for 9. Yes, a shame, but not anything to cry about. The list was a preliminary one, and they sure as hell won't be doing any of those in the near future.

I'm not saying people should be grateful of what they get, nor be happy that the updates that aren't paid for in the same way as Autodesk's products. But if you're just moaning about LW and how you feel cheated and lied to and abused, and used, then talk to the CEO or Private message one of the actual Newtek people. It doesn't help any of us lot, and we are the last people on earrth who really need to hear what other people think if it's so negative!

The bottom line is, you pay money for software and take a chance that it'll do what you want and that it's upgrades are also what you want and fix the outstanding bugs. As a 3dsMax user at work and we have many subscriptions for all our licenses, we NEVER receive emails much time before the release of the latest version. Infact it's usually only a month.

EVERY time we get the list, it is exciting, but you read through it and it's stark and bare, nothing there at all. Yes, newtek still have a massive uphill struggle to get Lightwave where it could be in the future, but 1) it won't help arguing with people on these fora and making Newtek's team feel like they aren't doing a good job or 2) go use some other software package and don't look back. You have nothing to lose, apart from maybe a lack of new features with each new upgrade from the competitors at Autodesk.

By the way, with Lightwave we get a bug fix for major bugs found... i had to struggle with a MAJOR bug in 3ds MAX for AGES until they released the subscription update, and even now it's still got bugs in what i'm trying to do.

and get this, their forums won't allow discussions on bugs, so try to find workarounds for your issues and your thread will be removed!! This bloody forum will let you chat about XSI, modo, Max to your hearts content, and if you're that way inclined!

I think people should bite their lip before saying things that could ruin the future development of Lightwave for the rest of us. Yes, a forum is a place to moan, but not to disrespect a company, whose own forum it is, and who is clearly doing a lot of work for the benefit of us!

Well said Lardbros.

Thomas M.
03-01-2008, 04:51 PM
There's nothing like FREE in business. If you think the upgrades deliver new features as a gift, than you miss the point that this has been calculated in advance. You just receive the features one after the other and not at once.

And price is not the issue. It is the speed at which we get new updates or new versions of our favourite piece of 3D software. I'd rather pay 2000$ if that would bring LW back among the other packages. Falling behind is much more expensive in every way.

Learning a new software package is something students might be able to afford. If you are in business, there's hardly any time to start over with a new package. So this "Than start using XSI, Maya or ..." bla, bla is really for the feet.

Sarford
03-01-2008, 06:54 PM
Learning a new software package is something students might be able to afford. If you are in business, there's hardly any time to start over with a new package. So this "Than start using XSI, Maya or ..." bla, bla is really for the feet.

Its nothing personal Thomas, but I have to disagree again. Ofcourse you can learn a new program when you are in business. What about zBrush? Many professionals learned that next to their normal 3D program. Or do you intend never to gonna use it just because you don't have time to learn it?
Besides, with something like XSI or Max (don't know about Maya) you don't have to 'start over'. Many of the things have the same principals in all 3D programs, and workflows aren't that different. Its more or less the same step as from Quark Xpress to Indesign.
I would go even further and say you HAVE TO learn new software when you are in business.

IMI
03-01-2008, 07:30 PM
I would go even further and say you HAVE TO learn new software when you are in business.


Hell yeah, you do!
Maybe not so much in the past, but these days with all the little specialty apps which do only one thing, but do it best....
It's not simply vanity that causes something like Real Flow to cost thousands of dollars. It's because it fills a need the base software can't. ;)

kfinla
03-01-2008, 07:53 PM
I'm not sure I wanted to contribute to this thread, and have not read the last 2 pages of posts.. but from what I've extracted this is what i have to say;

I've been using LW since 6.0b.. I may be naive but every upgrade I've purchased I've felt I was buying the whole update cycle, not just 7.0, or 8.0.. but what LW9 and the spirt of what the LW 9 dev cycle is working towards.

I think it would be very beneficial to Newtek to manage expectations better. There are a lot of unknowns which bread rumors.. and this whole victim mentality when features don't show up or are perhaps delayed to another upgrade.

1. NT perhaps should have a regular and consistent number of updates per dev cycle. We dont know if there will be a 9.6, or 9.7 etc .. things come up but it would help perhaps if ppl don't get what they want in 9.5 they know there is not a 9.6 coming. It will be the 10.x cycle.

2. Perhaps Dev cycles should be "themed " .. to tackle specific areas, and anything else is and unexpected gift.. ie. LW 10's goal is to tackle CA and Dynamics lets say.. so we can expect features (promises/falling stars to address those areas.. over say 4 point updates. The should still squash bugs everywhere, but things like a new light type.. or UV tool is not something known till it gets in our hands and we are surprised and praise the gifts bestowed upon us.

3. As someone said earlier.. be up front about what will not be tackled in the current cycle.

Just ideas.

COBRASoft
03-02-2008, 12:44 AM
Thank you kfinla :)

Andrewstopheles
03-07-2008, 07:57 PM
"Manage Expectations" - exactly the issue at hand here.
I am a very happy LW customer and can't complain about features or price or point releases. I think Newtek could reveal their intentions more, and deal with the consequences of whatever failures there may be, but compared to their competition they are doing a fine job of things. Admittedly, they could really take a definitive lead in this area if they could promise and deliver without failure. Microsoft and Adobe, Autodesk and others can't do it, so why should we expect Newtek to be able to do it?
You can't buy a full production pipeline with the best CA tools for the price of Lightwave. For my dollar I have received a very powerful and capable program.
I say keep up the good work! Bring on the beta, baby!

Chuck, I'm coming over to use your copy of Lightwave so I can play with the new features until the announced 9.5 release. ;-)

LW_Will
03-07-2008, 11:44 PM
I'm sorry guys, but you are all trolls... which, actually, I must be now 'cus I'm responding to this thread...

But, I digress....

Okay... you people who have commented on the 9.5 upgrade are totally wrong; not about what you have said about the program but that you actually have SAID something.

YOU HAVEN'T EVEN TOUCHED THE SOFTWARE!

How can you make a comment about something that you HAVEN'T EVEN TOUCHED YET?

Like the response? Answer... DON'T KNOW, HAVEN'T EVEN TOUCHED YET.
Like the New Character Tools? Answer... DON'T KNOW, HAVEN'T EVEN TOUCHED YET.
Like the new rendering? Answer... DON'T KNOW, HAVEN'T EVEN TOUCHED YET.
Like the GI? Answer... DON'T KNOW, HAVEN'T EVEN TOUCHED YET.
Isn't it great? Answer... DON'T KNOW, HAVEN'T EVEN TOUCHED YET.
Does it suck ***? Answer... DON'T KNOW, HAVEN'T EVEN TOUCHED YET.

It is so troll-like and ridiculous to make any comments on the software YOU HAVEN'T EVEN TOUCHED YET, let alone make comment thread after comment thread about how not to criticize, how to criticize, how great how sucky this phantom software is!

SHUT THE F* UP AND LET THEM WORK!

And, have some respect for the releases of software over the past two years that you got for $295. You know what? Maya had two upgrades with a cost of somewhere around $2grand in that time!

Yeah, and Lightwave3D sucks for doing character animaton... Like Roughnecks (done with 5.6) or Battlestar Galactica... 300, 24, or I could go on but I won't.

Do not respond to this post, you should not respond to this post, it is a post about not responding...

Go make something amazing with Lightwave3D, I know I will.

DragonFist
03-08-2008, 02:09 PM
Have to disagree with that broad generalization. One can certainly comment on something they haven't touched.

How do the new features look to you? Won't know for sure till I try them but the images shown thus far show promise/are disappointing.

or...

I like/don't like the the fact that feature x wasn't on the list.

Just because someone commented <> troll.

Especially if they qualify their comments with something like, we'll know when we see it.

By your definition, you are a troll as well. I personnally am not making that accusation. I am just saying that I very much disagree with the logic that comment on something untried = troll.

Stooch
03-09-2008, 01:04 AM
hmm most of my concerns are not even about features or what we get. Its all about workflow. I think that brad peebler has it right and that NT has much to learn from the way he is marketing modo.

The future for 3d is workflow. features are redundant. NT cannot simply sit back and throw feature at us that are available from third parties. we need the kind of things that third parties CANT do. and if they adapt a feature it needs to be FULLY integrated. Nodes that dont talk to each other are a disgrace, its against the WHOLE IDEA of nodal workflow. its a shameful repetition of the the CC fiasco. nodal inteface SHOULD be so much more. it could solve ALOT of problems. complex scenes? working with multiple emitters, render passes, layered composited output, expressions, motion modifiers. all can be done with nodes. in an integrated way. but i feel that what we have is the equivalent of a turtle head poking out. and it seems to be a recurring theme. stuff is being added. but not finished. motion blur that doesnt work on voxels, voxels that felt slapped on for years, they couldnt copy the workflow from surface editor??? does LW really need a new core in order to clean up some modeling tools into fewer but smarter implementations? I disagree. yet with every turn, lw feels like a new episode of LOST.

I guess there will always be LW critics, but whats the point of complaining about it when there is no shortage of fanboys? There needs to be a ballance in the force.

jcaesar
03-09-2008, 05:40 AM
Lightwave is a tool meant to do a certain kind of task. At any given point in time, it has a specific feature set, regardless of what people perceive to be promised or "offered" for the future.

Many people believe other products have the features they want--to that I say, "Then go buy it." Don't sit around and wait for what might be coming. Go get the tool you need to perform the task the way you need to perform it.

Don't buy based on perceived promises. Buy based on what is there.

As for me, I like hearing about the product early. Being a software developer myself, I also understand that possibile features doesn't equal actual features. I know that sometimes a feature doesn't meet the expectations of the company producing the software so it's pulled (sometimes done to avoid negative feedback on bad implementations)--and sometimes the company won't even let you know the feature failed; they aren't obligated to. People need to come to grips with this.

When you buy 9.0, that's all you're buying: 9.0. When new things are added in .x releases, you're getting them free. I would bet we all have other software that has similar upgrade pricing (major = $$, minor = 0$) and I would also bet most people aren't complaining about that other software either.

So to the users who would like to see a feature--post it in the feature request area, or get the software that meets your needs.

In response to Chuck's message I would offer this comment:

Don't change the information process as it is now, but perhaps clarify in the marketing materials, if any, that the information is subject to change or is speculative (and I'm sure that it's already in there somewhere).

Finally, the last suggestion I'd have is perhaps a modification to how some features are going to be included, i.e. the decision process. NT is going to decide on a list of things they'll want that fits their business model. Enough said there.

But beyond those features, perhaps NT could take the top 10 feature requests, and then run a poll (in the beta forums) as to which features appear to be the most desired, prioritize them by the poll results, try to implement one or two of them, and if released, perhaps market these remaining features as "requested by a majority of the users."

J

-EsHrA-
03-09-2008, 07:04 AM
"When you buy 9.0, that's all you're buying: 9.0."

uhm no we dont.
we buy 9.x including the .x releases upto 10. so nothing free here.
also many of the buyers do the purchase with the roadmap in mind that nt enlightned us with.
if they do not deliver us that, the proverbial *poo* will obviously hit the fan.


mlon

*Pete*
03-09-2008, 07:45 AM
did you ever sell an animation or still image to a client..lets say its archviz, and you end up promising slightly more than you could deliver..not much, but still enough to make you feel bad it, even if it was not your fault..you did your best, but had to give up trying to reach 100% becouse of lack of Ram, or too slow renders.
you do have other jobs waiting, that stops you from redoing that detail untill you get it totally, 100% correct as both you and your customer was hoping for...to make it as you planned would require you to invest far more money and time to do it than you really can afford...you having other jobs starting at monday is one thing, not getting paid more than you did so far is an other...waiting with the final render can risk that your computer will be busy when you need to start the other jobs...

but you did deliver 98% of the promised quality and even added real 3d people instead of 2D images of people that was planned before hand..the end result is just as good, or even better technically seen..but that one feature that you couldnt get in would have made it to meet all expectations qualitywise.

you will end up with making a decision on whether or not that detail that is missing, is important enough to drop everything else to fix it...considering that your customer is mainly very satisfied (except for the 1-2% of him that is not..its a chizofrenic customer).

what will you do in this situation?...you know that you cant deliver in time, but you dont know how long it can take before you can deliver...thats where NT is at the moment, and imho, they took the right choise.

they pressed the F9 in good time to meet the deadline, with or without the feature X..the overall is good enough.

Stooch
03-09-2008, 12:45 PM
hmm 98%??? where did you get that number and how does your 98% relates to the amount of "completed" features in LW? i think that you are pulling a number out of your ***.

Also, althought I am not really a subscriber to the "we got ripped off" philosophy, the point raised was that the product some people expected IS NOT what they are getting, not an issue of quality.

also you are using an image as a comparison which is the final product with a specific function and no workflow, while LW is a complex 3d application that makes these images, its used to make money with so its important that the people who buy it, get something useable in return. I think that we are getting some useable things - but not necessarily the most beneficial (or logical) ones.

For example the CA improvements dont mean anything to me since maya is my current CA tool of choice and MDD is the connection of choice. I also own a license of messiah and have been demoing XSI lately. Infact most of the serious industry places out there have a similar philosophy. Afterall you can make do with a single license of maya or xsi or what have you, and then use LW with its free render nodes for the rendering... so for me to see things like CA tools being worked on is dissapointing (unless the mesh evaluation helps with MDD scrubbing...hmm), i feel that NT is losing sight of LWs bread and butter, rendering and effects work. IMO the vast majority of the industry stands to benefit more immediatelly from improvements on render output, effects tools, volumetrics, you know things that are actually being used in production with success, and make LW stand out from the rest. Hair is a fantastic addition, but its a purchased 3rd party developer, he was already doing just fine and didnt really have much to do with the direction of LW as a whole. FF will only get better, thats not the issue.

I was surprised by NTs list of updates, because I honestly expected the nodes to be a very rough place holder until now, sort of like i hoped CCs were just a very rough place holder at some point in the past. I hope this dev cycle these serious issues get addressed, no global node connections?? HUGE BUG imo! not even a feature request, thats just wrong!

*Pete*
03-09-2008, 12:58 PM
My point was not the amount of completion LW is in at the moment..my point was that instead of focusing on an issue that turned out to be far more difficult to accomplish and giving up/setting it aside for the moment, is not ripping of customers, nor is it in any way an unsusual/immoral way to conduct business.

life is unpredictable..so is the value of stockmarkets and real estate as we have experienced (specially you in USA), nobody has been ripping anyone off...things sometimes happen thanks to unforeseen complications, the subprime is at fault within real estate, who knows what is the problem with feature X in LW 3D..i do not know, but i do understand that everything has a price, and if adding feature X might have its price as a year or two of developement while every other possible progress is put to on hold..its not worth it.

thats why i thought it was clever to use animations/images as an analogy..at some point you have to realise that going for perfection will cost too much money/time to be worth it...simple as that.

*Pete*
03-09-2008, 01:06 PM
the only one thing that i need now, looking at the coming 9.5 features..will be instancing.

once i get that, i have everything to fill my needs...but if it doesnt arrive, ill just bite the bullet and buy HDInstance.
its not a big problem for me as there are options, just as Stooch has found his ways through the lacks and flaws of LW with CA.

i agree on CC subd's though...

kfinla
03-09-2008, 01:15 PM
As far as CA goes.. i think there are at least two schools of thought;

1. Give up, admit defeat in that area to other programs and keep polishing the parts of LW that are already refined and is currently being used in production. ie. explosions and rendering.

2. The other school of thought is some ppl would like to be able to do everything inside of LW.

I'm not sure where I fit in this.. I own lots of software but have also been hoping for significant improvements in LW's CA abilities since v7. I've been wishing LW could rig and be as nice to animate in as Maya for so long I've forgotten why. I think NT are trying to both keep polishing (IES lights, spherical lights, smoother GI), while filling holes (CA), 1st party hair solution.

Stooch
03-09-2008, 08:01 PM
dotn give up on CA ! just focus on whats working and make it perfect. as in second to none. LW render engine is very close to being first tier imo. Render layers, the upcoming hair, the tweaked gi, a fixed volumetrics solution with the nice blur and the render node pricing... its a very tempting tool imo. the most direct competitor in that regard would have to be modo?

you dont get users to drop whats already working by being "good enough" thats a tough order when compared to maya, XSI or houdini. and a bunch of other apps.

rendering...?? thats a totally different story.