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View Full Version : LW 9.5: Fur And Hair: One Man's Opinion



Giacomo99
02-24-2008, 05:59 PM
Hello-

I just want to say that I'd be a billion (1,000,000,000) times more excited if 9.5 had a stable, well-implemented way to paint weightmaps in Layout, rather than an improved fur-and-hair solution.

Thanks,

G

hrgiger
02-24-2008, 06:43 PM
Why can't we have both?

StereoMike
02-24-2008, 06:57 PM
What's that? Should everyone open a thread for his secret wishes? Oh my, it doesn't matter what NT does, there's always somebody who doesn't like the decision. If they supplied painting weights for 9.5 I bet there were some hundred others that want a better modeler, CA tools or even a replacement for that old (I guess 8 years) hair plugin...

mike

connerh
02-24-2008, 09:22 PM
I for one am disappointed with the UTTER lack of Chuck Norris in LW 9.5 :mad:

I'm sure once Layout has the ability for per vertex/edge manipulation, creation, etc then if NT doesn't implement a layout based weight map painter then a third party could. Maybe before you start pouting about what NT didn't implement, you should wait until you try out 9.5. It's possible that the new joint bones etc will remove some of our dependence on weight maps for clean deformations.

wacom
02-24-2008, 09:33 PM
I haven't rigged anything in Lightwave in so long I forgot this was even a problem!

Point oven...FBX...allow you to treat other programs like plugins for LW...

Would be nice to have a solution in LW though for all of those that refuse to or can't justify the expense in doing above said solution.

digefxgrp
02-24-2008, 09:37 PM
...and I just bet you that sometime within a billion years you're gonna get your wish. :thumbsup:

Giacomo99
02-25-2008, 07:28 AM
Yes. Let me clarify my original point: Given the finite resources of NewTek's development staff, I'd far rather see improvements to the weaker areas of the program (i.e., more robust rigging and UV tools) than additional "bells and whistles" (i.e., hair and fur.)

Phil
02-25-2008, 08:19 AM
Your opinion is valid, but so is everyone else's. I'd have liked to see HVs reworked (perhaps Dynamite brought in from the cold before it dies). I'd have liked to see network rendering given some love.

There's a lengthy list of animation related stuff I wanted as well, but such is life.

What I *do* see, though, I like. I'm interested to see what animation changes are on the way, though, and look forward to OB.

Now I'm off to see what images arrived in my inbox....

ben martin
02-25-2008, 08:22 AM
Yes. Let me clarify my original point: Given the finite resources of NewTek's development staff, I'd far rather see improvements to the weaker areas of the program (i.e., more robust rigging and UV tools) than additional "bells and whistles" (i.e., hair and fur.)
100% Agree!
No doubts!!!

Nevertheless, if they don't bring the new bells (bugs and problems) all the rest of the comunity would start to claim that LW is old and static in the ways (which by the way is also true) because the previous LW team didn't care enough to bring LW to new levels.
Now we are paying that bill!

So, my opinion is that Jay team is a very recent team and we must give them the benefit of time to prove themselves.
So far, I must agree that they are doing great things to some areas that (unfortunately) are not the areas I would like to see improvements on!
Though, I 'm expecting to see those new CA improvements they are talking about.
I hope it really brings new power to CA and won't be more of the same (spread workflow with more and more unconnected tools)!

Time will tell.

So, all in all, it's a good effort and promises from NT.
Let's hope for the best!

evenflcw
02-25-2008, 09:43 AM
Yes. Let me clarify my original point: Given the finite resources of NewTek's development staff, I'd far rather see improvements to the weaker areas of the program (i.e., more robust rigging and UV tools) than additional "bells and whistles" (i.e., hair and fur.)

I think your argument is faulty. "Bells and whistles" is something you can do without. For anyone that needs hair and fur, it is not bells and whistle, a proper implementation is essential. Compared to alot of other things, hair and fur is not easily faked and cannot be worked-around. Given that fact and that LW is marketed as an everything-out-of-the-box-package and that previously we had nothing, and later we had a severely crippled sas-lite, hair WAS the weakest part of LW. Hair and fur might not be needed on every shot, but when it's needed it demands a proper implementation.

In comparison, being able to paint weights in layout IS "bells and whistles" as we can already paint weights in Modeler. It is not make-or-brake to have painting in Layout. I'd absolutely love to be able to paint weights in layout and be able to create more complex rigs with lots of dependencies, but I recognize the need for proper hair and fur for LW to be seen as a valid option for any given work.

Imho, your only valid argument is that hair and fur can be acquired from a 3rd party whereas painting in Layout is something that only NT can provide as it is dependant on LW core changes.

Just my 2 öre (the equivalent of cents in swedish currency).

LW_Will
02-25-2008, 09:52 AM
Yes. Let me clarify my original point: Given the finite resources of NewTek's development staff, I'd far rather see improvements to the weaker areas of the program (i.e., more robust rigging and UV tools) than additional "bells and whistles" (i.e., hair and fur.)

Um... the press release says, quite clearly that there ARE improvements in rigging tools and UV tools... and GI, Lights, SDK improvements... the lot.

Listen, I know its against character, but could you guys at least WAIT UNTIL YOU TRY THE NEW PROGRAM BEFORE YOU SAY HOW BAD IT IS! Please!

:ahem:

Thanks.

ps. and Chuck Norris? Yeah, we need that.

littlewaves
02-25-2008, 09:53 AM
Just my 2 öre (the equivalent of cents in swedish currency).

that's a pretty good rate you got there:D

Netvudu
02-25-2008, 09:55 AM
Considering the CA tools currently in LW need way more overhaul than simply changing the way weights are painted, I´d rather have production ready hair&fur and GI, than non-production ready although improved riggin tools.
I wouldn´t expect nothing prior to 10 regarding up-to-date riggin, but I´m extremely happy about the way Lightwave´s being developed by the new dev team.
So if you are able to open a new thread to state your self-formed opinion on the matter and allow us to read it, you should be equally prepared to read how non-production based (i.e. amateurish) and selfish it sounds to some of us working with LW on a daily basis.

evenflcw
02-25-2008, 09:55 AM
Well the rate is probably not right. More like 6.5 öre = 1 cent. So those were really my 13 öre.

walfridson
02-25-2008, 10:04 AM
But the smallest we got is 50 öre, so... ;)

littlewaves
02-25-2008, 10:33 AM
But the smallest we got is 50 öre, so... ;)
worth every penny

vadermanchild
02-25-2008, 12:12 PM
My mind boggles why Newtek would implement a luckluster hair plugin when there is so many other areas that are so weak.

Also what does this mean for the Worley relationship? THat guy has kept LW from sinking for a large number of users - it seems odd.

As posted by others I agree these tests are doing more harm than good with customers who have high expectations for a 2008 hair solution.

mav3rick
02-25-2008, 12:16 PM
Hello-

I just want to say that I'd be a billion (1,000,000,000) times more excited if 9.5 had a stable, well-implemented way to paint weightmaps in Layout, rather than an improved fur-and-hair solution.

Thanks,

G

man your avatar is so ...
Needless insult has been removed.

and other take
hair and fur is fine addon to lw and if you know background how it appear in lw you would not ask this kind of questions.
according to informations from forum FF guy is now hired by newtek and this is enough for explanation how fur appear in lw.
personally this thread is pointless

tektonik
02-25-2008, 12:21 PM
man your avatar is so .. i mean if i tell will will i be shoot for discrimination ?

i agree that this avatar is by far the most G** ever but Giacomo the Dude , cowboy in the mountain or whatever you want him to be has a point... I have no need for hair but he , on the other hand, could use a bit of it :)

and to continue with off-topic stuff , being from Quebec I applaude the independantist move of Kosovo

mav3rick
02-25-2008, 12:23 PM
i think he is baldy to look more though... but that didnt fool me :P

Wickster
02-25-2008, 12:33 PM
Also what does this mean for the Worley relationship? THat guy has kept LW from sinking for a large number of users - it seems odd.
As much as how Worley had helped LW a lot. I think it's time LW stands up on its own again. I'm sure they maintain a strong relationship with each other but there shouldn't be politics between them. Imagine that a lot users are requesting for a better viper, if NT was to make one, what would happen to fPrime? They walk a tight rope right now and is probably hurting/benefitting them as a company in some ways.

I wouldn't mind seeing NT go "Ah forget it I'm doing this my way" sometimes. Improve their software cause it's their software and have the 3rd party devs follow along. Rather than say, well I can't do that cause so-and-so guy is doing that. I know it's heartless...but you know...it's...heartless. :)

just my opinion.

j__
02-25-2008, 12:45 PM
What's that? Should everyone open a thread for his secret wishes? Oh my, it doesn't matter what NT does, there's always somebody who doesn't like the decision. If they supplied painting weights for 9.5 I bet there were some hundred others that want a better modeler, CA tools or even a replacement for that old (I guess 8 years) hair plugin...

mike

Setting weights in layout is, amongst other things, a 'CA tool' and is a fundamental, not an exotic 'out there' kooky feature request, along with any kind of vertex level edit in the environment you are animating in, and it's not really understandable that this can never seem to be resolved. But presumably it's so that LW users can be charged again and again for the hazy promise of this very basic functionality in some later version. And that this scenario has actually become part of NewTek's business model re Lightwave is worrying. And it's also worrying that the criteria keeps getting skewed away from this into other more peripheral features.

What's really tragic is you actually almost have vertex level (not vmap) edits now, with this poor workaround using Soft FX, so it's there..almost but in such a form as to ensure its basically useless.

Although a lot of people I know have drifted away from Lightwave for CA to XSI or Maya because some of these problems, people with an interest in character animation in Lightwave, whether or not they are animators in their job, people who run their own businesses or freelancing for their own clients, or people just wanting to have some fun with LW ,whatever, it doesn't really matter, but all people with some investment in LW should consider drafting some joint open letter to Jay Roth about this issue, and start to become quite serious as a lobbying body, as contrary to some, possibly quite well-meant views, it is this issue alone which is the biggest challenge LW currently faces today.

Adding on more and more features, some of them maybe quite cool as they could be, doesn't make this problem go away and instead blurs the importance of the real issues at hand, and that this really core component, I wouldn't even call it a feature, is being sat on, has to remain a source of considerable concern for all users whether or not they do any character animation.

Sometimes people say, wow well look at Maya or whatever how you can paint weights in real time, it is amazing! But of course, anyone who knows anything about character animation, or has worked in a character animation environment knows, this isn't amazing. It's a fundamental, a basic, a norm and even Blender has implemented it very well. It's only abnormal that NewTek refuse to provide this to their customers whatsoever, and appear to have been quite happy to implicitly let people believe that this is (ever) just around the corner, and preside over this scenario.

And it's not just for character animators, the norm of vertex level and vmap control in situ benefits literally everyone, so if people are happy to give NewTek a blessing with the usual bucket of goofy flakey extras bolted onto LW and all going in different directions, then they're probably only hurting themselves, and I'm sorry to say, it's this situation which far from helping Lightwave, overall, has actually done it no favors at all.

later

mav3rick
02-25-2008, 12:54 PM
oh my this is so long to read .. can some1 shorten this one down ?

vadermanchild
02-25-2008, 02:38 PM
oh my this is so long to read .. can some1 shorten this one down ?

what did you say? I didnt read past "oh my" :D

mav3rick
02-25-2008, 02:41 PM
lol

#25

Wonderpup
02-25-2008, 03:26 PM
Imho, your only valid argument is that hair and fur can be acquired from a 3rd party whereas painting in Layout is something that only NT can provide as it is dependant on LW core changes.

But it's a pretty good argument. Why (apparantly) focus resources on duplicating exisitng solutions when fundemental stuff is (apparantly) not being addressed?

It's not that I dont like hair ( I wish I had more of it ) but of all the things I expected of 9.5, hair was not it.

9x was supposed to be the begining of a radical new lightwave- a 21st century integrated application- but it's not happening, at least not that I can see.

Can anyone who has seen 9.5 close up comment on the integration issue? Is it happening?

lardbros
02-25-2008, 03:32 PM
Well the way i see it is like this...

We have been given a bloody good upgrade, for free, to 9.5... there are vast improvements over what we had in the beginning of the 9 series... we're getting close to lw10 and i reckon the concurrent developments over at Newtek, whilst they are keeping us happy with these point upgrades, will blow us out of the water when they arrive.

Yes, 9.5 is very significant, but i seriously think they will be saving a few gems that aren't quite ready but are massive in terms of pushing LW forward, and these will be waiting for the LW10 release! This is a really exciting time for LW, and for us, and i can say now, i will definitely be upgrading to 10 when it arrives... god dang, i'll put my name on the pre-order list now if they would let me!

As for the integration issue, it's clearly happening, but most of it under the hood for now. They've completely re-done the texturing with Nodes, ripped out the rendering core and are still upgrading that, and now they've done it to the lights... clearly the biggest of all these tasks is the animation/rigging etc, and also getting those modelling tools into Layout, but i guess they are heavily dependant on one another. I bet Newtek have been beavering away on these for a long time, but as they haven't finished they can't implement them all. I bet the core code in Lightwave is almost unrecognisable, so many changes have occurred in this 9 release.

toonafish
02-25-2008, 03:55 PM
Does anyone know if there's a decent UNDO in 9.5 Layout ??

cresshead
02-25-2008, 04:12 PM
newtek should really concentrate on making a 'cat' primative more than say lighting or rendering...i mean near everyone has a cat avatar so they should at least make a start on some cat tools!

3D|Dave
02-25-2008, 05:17 PM
I just hope that these features will improve the performace of Layout when you add bones, right now the display slows to a crawl when you add a bone that deforms the mesh. Also it would be nice to have an overall faster openGL layout, I mean 60K polygons are nothing these days and we should be able to animate a fully rigged character with at least 24 FPS.

Enhanced IK and Animation Systems
New IK Calculation Options for Faster Performance
New Bone Type - Joints
New Objective Options for IK
IK/FK blending
Multi-threaded Mesh Deformation Evaluation

Giacomo99
02-25-2008, 10:29 PM
i agree that this avatar is by far the most G** ever but Giacomo the Dude , cowboy in the mountain or whatever you want him to be has a point... I have no need for hair but he , on the other hand, could use a bit of it :)

I dunno...chicks seem to dig my avatar--especially when they see the uncropped version. It's not the kind of babe magnet that, for example, a Lord-Of-The-Rings character or a Japanese robot is, but I do my best.

Besides, if I were swamped with female admirers the way you guys all are, I'd never have any time to do 3D.

jin choung
02-25-2008, 10:44 PM
I dunno...chicks seem to dig my avatar--especially when they see the uncropped version. It's not the kind of babe magnet that, for example, a Lord-Of-The-Rings character or a Japanese robot is, but I do my best.

Besides, if I were swamped with female admirers the way you guys all are, I'd never have any time to do 3D.

lol.

nicely done.

i have no idea what's wrong with those guys and i am surprised - with the way people seem to jump into emergency mode around here - that they ignore a pretty offensive and completely unprovocated attack (two actually) against you.

anyway, those two or three or however may just have done themselves the (un)favor of properly calibrating their personalities, taste and sensibilities to the world but you're none the worse for wear so kudos.

you probably have more than fair provocation to go to the mods but if you're just gonna stick it out on your own... high five.

jin

p.s. while i think we needed a hair plugin because we had a lamea#@ LITE version in the package already, i can't agree more that we need a good sensible weight paint/interface (i would like numerical editing too) for skinning....

StereoMike
02-26-2008, 02:47 AM
Setting weights in layout is, ...
*several pages later*
...from helping Lightwave, overall, has actually done it no favors at all.
later

I bought xsi essentials as well for the above mentioned reasons. BUT: I am still faster in LW at many tasks. LW's renderer is easier to setup, though it's pumping brilliant quality out of the pipeline. The LW community is comparable to none. XSI boards are rather dead compared to this one and spinquad, i.e. it feels like that, cause threads are quickly abandoned due to the lack of a summary of your subscribed threads.
Having said that, I don't think that CA will save LW. It's the renderer.
We agree, XSI is great at CA, and NT has a lot of work to do to even get on par. So professionals who need CA frequently use either tools like t4d's or maestro to stay inside LW (makes only sense when you do really little CA stuff) or have already bought into messiah or xsi. So it will take a lot of time to get those people back into the host application...
But there are still alot of people who use LW for rendering. Unlimited nodes, easy setup. You won't need to get those people back, cause a lot of them are still here. You only have to care for them staying at LW.
So enhancing the renderer and keeping people will do more for LW than fixing CA and waiting for people to come back for animating their characters.

(hopes that makes sense to anyone besides me)
my 2ct
nah, seeing how long this rant became it's rather 2 euro...

mike

loki74
02-26-2008, 03:19 AM
(hopes that makes sense to anyone besides me)

Makes sense to me...

mav3rick
02-26-2008, 03:36 AM
i dont see chicks excited here.... maybe jin see something i dont

colkai
02-26-2008, 04:08 AM
Makes sense to me...
Likewise. :)

ben martin
02-26-2008, 05:38 AM
i dont see chicks excited here.... maybe jin see something i dont
Man, move along with that issue!
Argue and talk about interesting things, thats why we all are here! Please!

adamredwoods
02-26-2008, 05:21 PM
well-implemented way to paint weightmaps in Layout

I believe there is a plugin that can help with Weight map painting. --oh wait it's not layout based. My mistake.

http://www.dstorm.co.jp/english/plugin/vmap.htm#VertexPaint2


And yes, UNDO is being improved because I saw it in the 9.3.1 SDK. Unfortunately, all the plugins would need a rewrite.

skanky
02-26-2008, 05:38 PM
I believe there is a plugin that can help with Weight map painting. --oh wait it's not layout based. My mistake.

http://www.dstorm.co.jp/english/plugin/vmap.htm#VertexPaint2

Actually, that works in Layout now. It's part of Newtek putting some modeller functionality within Layout.

Stooch
02-26-2008, 06:03 PM
I dunno...chicks seem to dig my avatar--especially when they see the uncropped version. It's not the kind of babe magnet that, for example, a Lord-Of-The-Rings character or a Japanese robot is, but I do my best.

Besides, if I were swamped with female admirers the way you guys all are, I'd never have any time to do 3D.
dude. i know what you mean, my avatar gets me mad pu$$y!!!

anyway what are you doing trying to pickup chicks on LW forums though? i mean, 3d users mostly consist of ugly male dorks, unless of course your idea of a hot chick comes with a set of hairy balls (no not testicles you perverts, im talking lightwave hair and spheres... oh and cats ^ ).

i have to say that I dont agree about the weight paint tools, i still consider lw too far behind in CA to bother with a layout weight tool, id rather have it all come at once as a CA revolution of sorts, for me hair is more useful for CA anyway, since i like to animate hairy characters, but voxels are THE most useful, because i want my hairy characters to die in fiery (or flaming) deaths - but thats just me :)

GregMalick
02-27-2008, 12:32 AM
Hello-

I just want to say that I'd be a billion (1,000,000,000) times more excited if 9.5 had a stable, well-implemented way to paint weightmaps in Layout, rather than an improved fur-and-hair solution.

Thanks,

G
:agree:

I just saw a Disney TD do some weightmap painting in Maya at a local community college. I gotta say that I really was envious.

Not that I don't appreciate another hair tool - but layout weightmap painting would be awesome.

"well-implemented" is the key word here, too.

Gregg "T.Rex"
02-27-2008, 01:18 AM
On the same wave as Gregory, i saw the new movies of Maya's 2008 Extension 2 and they were really impressive, to say the least. It seems quite difficult and quite a challenge for any other 3D company to keep up with the latest innovations they keep adding to Maya or Max; especially, those weight map painting options...
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=10797415
Oh, well...

Puguglybonehead
02-27-2008, 01:31 AM
Oh my god. We're finally getting a built-in hair solution that appears to work, and people are complaining before they've even tried it?!?! Sorry, but I just don't get you guys. I'm very excited about 9.5. The hair fx looks like an incredibly useful thing. The new UV mapping stuff is more than welcome, and I am really curious to see what these new 'joint' bones are all about.

Y'know, all the ridiculous amounts of negativity I see on here remind me of the old ElectricImage forum and why I never spent much time there. Ya gotta wonder just what killed that software (or who did).

I miss what first attracted me to this forum (and to Lightwave in general). This used to be a forum that was full of useful advice, interesting works being posted, good humour and a generally positive vibe. If ya wanna preach gloom & doom all the time, why don't you just go stand out on a street corner somewhere and do it?

jin choung
02-27-2008, 01:41 AM
On the same wave as Gregory, i saw the new movies of Maya's 2008 Extension 2 and they were really impressive, to say the least. It seems quite difficult and quite a challenge for any other 3D company to keep up with the latest innovations they keep adding to Maya or Max; especially, those weight map painting options...
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=10797415
Oh, well...

yeah... this is the stuff that they got from acquiring COMET'S muscle plugin.... super duper nice. muscle deformation and skin sliding all using deformation effects - not simulation - somehow!

but not so nice for maya2008 owners. unless you are a subscriber to autode$k$ support program for maya, you DON'T GET IT. even if you upgraded or bought maya2008 already!

nice but it has a price.

we're still on maya 7 at work.

---------------------------------------------

i've said it before, i'll say it again, lw is the only full featured 3d app that is affordable to the individual (discounting lite versions... which i DO!!!)... (except for blender.... and blender's going to be a huge threat very very soon).

jin

evenflcw
02-27-2008, 06:30 AM
Actually, that works in Layout now. It's part of Newtek putting some modeller functionality within Layout.

Mute points imho. It will start, but it's next to pointless as it only recognizes skelegons, not bones. It also uses it's own interface, so it's not much better than using just Modeler.

tyrot
02-27-2008, 09:31 AM
dear stereomike

you are always making sense....thanks for nice and honest XSI info.

BEST

Wonderpup
02-27-2008, 09:58 AM
Oh my god. We're finally getting a built-in hair solution that appears to work, and people are complaining before they've even tried it?!?! Sorry, but I just don't get you guys. I'm very excited about 9.5. The hair fx looks like an incredibly useful thing. The new UV mapping stuff is more than welcome, and I am really curious to see what these new 'joint' bones are all about.

I don't think anyone's saying that hair and fur are not a great addition , but look at it from my point of view, I bought into 9.x because it was projected to be a major step on the way to an integrated solution to my business needs, and I got...hair. Had I wanted to buy hair I would have bought worleys plug in.

I can see that it does look really crass to raise the issue- but seriously, would you be happy if you paid for a hat and got a really nice necktie instead? Even if it was a great necktie? As far I recall hair and fur were not on the projected feature list for 9x ( although I suppose it could sneak in under the heading of improvements to the character animation system.)

I'm just interested to know if the features that I wanted and paid for are visable in any form in the current build, this is not to dis the hard work and talent that went into the creation of the hair and fur, which I am really pleased to have.

*Pete*
02-27-2008, 10:50 AM
Had I wanted to buy hair I would have bought worleys plug in.

I need a hair/fur function to create carpets and grass, in a radiousity lit enviroment and sometimes with reflections and refractions, ive tried many solutions..some better than others.
Sasquatch is impressive as it is, but far too overpriced...it costs almost the same as LW itself!!, and this is with all of its limitations regarding reflections and refractions.

To get a furry plug, for free, is something im gratefull for, even if it was totally unexpected.

but anyway...as you mentioned, buy a hat and get a necktie instead...we arent there yet, the hat might still be in the making and the necktie is a bonus.
its still expected that instancing and CA tools will be added, altough some things such as layout modelling tools might not appear at all during the 9.x series.
i do not know which of those things were the "hat" you bought, but you are getting a lot of neckties while youre waiting.

and finally...what the h*** is a necktie??

sadkkf
02-27-2008, 10:58 AM
Your opinion is valid, but so is everyone else's. I'd have liked to see HVs reworked (perhaps Dynamite brought in from the cold before it dies). I'd have liked to see network rendering given some love.


How close is Dynamite to dying? This really horks me off. I find a great plug for fire, buy it in spite of no legible documentation and serious usability and then it languishes.

I'm this close to offering to buy the source code and finishing it myself.

Wonderpup
02-27-2008, 11:30 AM
To get a furry plug, for free, is something im gratefull for, even if it was totally unexpected.

That's true. But the point of this thread is the concern that I am getting a furry plug instead of the features I really wanted- given how resources are presumably limited.

I'm not saying this is true, I really don't know- all I know is that the primary features for which I preordered 9 a couple of years ago seems to be as far away from delivery now as they did then.



and finally...what the h*** is a necktie??

It's a good question- it appears to be a redundant strip of coloured cloth that is worn about the neck primarily by males of mid to high economic status or occassionaly at ceremonies of high significance such as weddings and funerals.

Neckties have little, if any, practical function, and seem to be employed mainly as symbols of status and professional competance, though why a knotted piece of cloth should confer such meanings is hard to determine.

There are interesting local variants on the practice. Here in the UK, for example, it is common practice for hospital consultants to wear a bow tie, usually quite colourful. Interestingly the ritual function in this case seems to be an inversion of the norm- here the neck cloth is employed to convey a certain freedom from convention, rather than invocation of it, a sort of inverse status is being claimed whereby the wearer of the tie is declaring their relative power in the situation by subverting dress code rather than observing it.

The most interesting aspect of the necktie is how completely normal we feel it to be- nobody finds it odd that vast numbers of otherwise intelligent males feel it important to tie coloured bits of cloth around their necks in order to be taken seriously by their superiors and peers. Despite the fact that even a reasonably intelligent monkey could be taught to tie the rather simple knot employed to keep the cloth strip in place.

bobakabob
02-27-2008, 11:36 AM
Oh my god. We're finally getting a built-in hair solution that appears to work, and people are complaining before they've even tried it?!?! Sorry, but I just don't get you guys. I'm very excited about 9.5. The hair fx looks like an incredibly useful thing. The new UV mapping stuff is more than welcome, and I am really curious to see what these new 'joint' bones are all about.

Y'know, all the ridiculous amounts of negativity I see on here remind me of the old ElectricImage forum and why I never spent much time there. Ya gotta wonder just what killed that software (or who did).

I miss what first attracted me to this forum (and to Lightwave in general). This used to be a forum that was full of useful advice, interesting works being posted, good humour and a generally positive vibe. If ya wanna preach gloom & doom all the time, why don't you just go stand out on a street corner somewhere and do it?

:agree: It's a free point release and all!

*Pete*
02-27-2008, 11:45 AM
That's true. But the point of this thread is the concern that I am getting a furry plug instead of the features I really wanted- given how resources are presumably limited.


nobody knows for sure, but IF the developer of fiberfactory is now working for NT, no resources should be removed from what ever feature you wanted to have as the only person working with the fiberfx will be its original developer.
If he is not working for NT it can be that NT bought the plugin, which anyway was a finished product so no more work/resources are needed on it.

the thing is, as been explained by NT earlier, that the team consists of specialists..the renderer specialists will not work with modeller, neither will the node specialist guy...they will simply continue improving upon what ever specialty they have.
If they now have the fiber/hair/fur guy working for them, i assume it will be in a specialist position, working with furry things and will not add or remove resources from/to other tasks with LW 9 series.

this is all speculation though..but i would be suprised if they took a CA spesialist to deal with furry things for example...as he/she would have to learn a lot before being able to get up into speed with it...all the while his talent on the CA tools would be on hold.

Giacomo99
02-27-2008, 12:13 PM
Y'know, all the ridiculous amounts of negativity I see on here remind me of the old ElectricImage forum and why I never spent much time there. Ya gotta wonder just what killed that software (or who did).

FYI, what "killed" Electric Image (it's actually still around) was 1990s dot-com capitalist mentality: a group of investors bought the company and mismanaged it right into the ground. The attitudes of users in the forum had nothing to do with it.

But since I'm also a veteran of the EI forum, I can say that the "negativity" here of which you speak does seem reminiscent of that time. The fact (or should I say, the .lwo) is that when one has invested a huge amount of time learning a piece of software, it's no fun to watch it gradually fall behind competing products. And it's hard to pretend that Lightwave isn't falling behind. It's the ONLY major 3D app that doesn't have a workable system for painting weightmaps, and for anyone doing 3D in 2008, that's a huge limitation. I mean, even Electric Image (in its greatly reduced circumstances) has had that functionality for several years now.

rakker16mm
02-27-2008, 01:33 PM
Dear NT,

Thank you for the update. I can't wait to get my hands on it and judge for my self. Thank you especially for the new hair & fur plugin which I would have to buy els ware..... when they get around to making their UB version.

It must be hard being a baker when the critics are judging the flakiness of your croissants before they come out of the oven. And what is the recipe for all this fuss? Just add a few preliminary renders, a thinly worded press release about a FREE update,,, oh and a small core of beta testers. Mix well in a medium sized bowl or message board. Then just sit back and watch as every thing gets all puffed up :thumbsup:

I have to say I don't understand why people are jumping up and down talking about what Blender has that LW9 doesn't when they can just go download blender for free. I think it's crazy hoping that there will ever be a perfect one size fits all software program, and it really is best to take the time to learn as many different programs as possible since they each have their strengths and weaknesses.

Best Regards,

j

zapper1998
02-27-2008, 01:45 PM
I dunno...chicks seem to dig my avatar--especially when they see the uncropped version. It's not the kind of babe magnet that, for example, a Lord-Of-The-Rings character or a Japanese robot is, but I do my best.

Besides, if I were swamped with female admirers the way you guys all are, I'd never have any time to do 3D.




dude. i know what you mean, my avatar gets me mad pu$$y!!!

anyway what are you doing trying to pickup chicks on LW forums though? i mean, 3d users mostly consist of ugly male dorks, unless of course your idea of a hot chick comes with a set of hairy balls (no not testicles you perverts, im talking lightwave hair and spheres... oh and cats ^ ).

:)

Oh this is getting funny

jin choung
02-27-2008, 02:09 PM
I can see that it does look really crass to raise the issue- but seriously, would you be happy if you paid for a hat and got a really nice necktie instead? Even if it was a great necktie?

this is a really excellent point that all the gratitude and love folks seem to be INCAPABLE of grasping... at ANY LEVEL... WHATSOEVER.

in your case, you get a necktie when you wanted a hat. that's a fair crit. and you are totally magnanimous in expressing your concerns.

[sorry, i'm gonna string your sentiment to my own cause but feel free to disavow yourself. and i prologue by saying my statements are my own and not necessarily the opinions of this station.... thank you]

in my case, some of the renders make me think that i'm getting a really crappy necktie... but i don't dare say word one against it because it's COMPLETELY FREE! how DARE i?!

in both cases, they may SEEM crass or uncouth but they're BOTH VALID.

GRATITUDE need not enter into the discussion and properly does not belong. for this and a bevy of additional reasons.

you can make a case (though not a great one and certainly a contestable one) for premature judgment. but all this stuff about gratitude needs to stay out.

jin

wavemaster
02-27-2008, 02:22 PM
this is a really excellent point that all the gratitude and love folks seem to be INCAPABLE of grasping... at ANY LEVEL... WHATSOEVER.

in your case, you get a necktie when you wanted a hat. that's a fair crit. and you are totally magnanimous in expressing your concerns.

[sorry, i'm gonna string your sentiment to my own cause but feel free to disavow yourself. and i prologue by saying my statements are my own and not necessarily the opinions of this station.... thank you]

in my case, some of the renders make me think that i'm getting a really crappy necktie... but i don't dare say word one against it because it's COMPLETELY FREE! how DARE i?!

in both cases, they may SEEM crass or uncouth but they're BOTH VALID.

GRATITUDE need not enter into the discussion and properly does not belong. for this and a bevy of additional reasons.

you can make a case (though not a great one and certainly a contestable one) for premature judgment. but all this stuff about gratitude needs to stay out.

jin

I am with ya... gratitude doesn't and shouldn't enter into the situation! I dont know what thats all about...

3D|Dave
02-27-2008, 02:36 PM
There would probably be less griping if the hair/fur system wasn't given top billing in the press release. I do agree that this may have taken away resources from other areas of the program. If there are specialist in each area working away then NT needs to go back and fill some holes because there are many areas that have not been updated since V7 and clearly users are saying "wait a minute, that's not the update that I have been waiting years for".

*Pete*
02-27-2008, 02:40 PM
in my case, some of the renders make me think that i'm getting a really crappy necktie... but i don't dare say word one against it because it's COMPLETELY FREE! how DARE i?!


naturally you can say that you dont like hairy balls, even if others do...but i think youre missing the point with the balls.
they show something that wasnt possible previously...some show that now you are actually able to see the reflection of the hairy balls.
its more like showing possibilities more than to show off fine art.

ive seen crappy renders/modells from any program..even the much respected ZBrush has its share of crap floating around, but i do not judge it based on some newbies first experiences with the program.
you can even see that Beewee included a radiousity test in the locked 9,5 images thread...it doesnt look impressive as i seen it color before, but the rendertime and smoothness of the GI are impressive...while you may not like grey cubes more than hairy balls, the point with them was never to show the image itself, but the possibilities of the software that created them.

this is the point i see so many missing completely...wait a week or so, try it for yourself..if your balls look good enough to satisfy your demand for quality fur, fine..if not, then it is also fine...as it was an unexpected free bonus and you use it if you want, or dont if you dont want.



somehow i feel that people would have been happier if saslite would have been replaced with sasquatch, full version...despite its handicaps.

lardbros
02-27-2008, 02:51 PM
somehow i feel that people would have been happier if saslite would have been replaced with sasquatch, full version...despite its handicaps.

Have to say this... I would have been gutted if Saslite had been replaced by the full version. Don't get me wrong, it's great, but it's pretty tricky to get quick results for decent long hair, and it doesn't interact nicely with most things in Lightwave. I think Newtek have done completely the right thing by implementing a fur/hair tool that works with EVERYTHING. I think this is the goal of Newtek, to get everything working with everything... no workarounds and messing around.

bobakabob
02-27-2008, 03:05 PM
this is a really excellent point that all the gratitude and love folks seem to be INCAPABLE of grasping... at ANY LEVEL... WHATSOEVER.

in your case, you get a necktie when you wanted a hat. that's a fair crit. and you are totally magnanimous in expressing your concerns.

[sorry, i'm gonna string your sentiment to my own cause but feel free to disavow yourself. and i prologue by saying my statements are my own and not necessarily the opinions of this station.... thank you]

in my case, some of the renders make me think that i'm getting a really crappy necktie... but i don't dare say word one against it because it's COMPLETELY FREE! how DARE i?!

in both cases, they may SEEM crass or uncouth but they're BOTH VALID.

GRATITUDE need not enter into the discussion and properly does not belong. for this and a bevy of additional reasons.

you can make a case (though not a great one and certainly a contestable one) for premature judgment. but all this stuff about gratitude needs to stay out.

jin

!

andywright
02-27-2008, 03:30 PM
wow...and I thought the Daz forums could get negative about the upcoming 6.1 release of Carrara.

At least Newtek are starting to show us what is coming up, even if they aren't finished enough to produce professional quality renders yet (or they haven't time to produce them). And Jay and others do respond to requests for more information.

I am starting to understand why Daz stay so tight lipped about their next release bar dropping a few hints:thumbsdow

I agree with other people here who said sit back, watch and see what comes, the feature list at least sounds interesting :)

geothefaust
02-27-2008, 03:49 PM
I am earning my money with CG, and I am happy if there can be a subscription also for Lightwave... I dont know why people think it is something stupit to pay the developer that than can care about state of the art tools... (when I do my work, I also want my money, would be horror if the clients pay only one time every few jears)


I'm sorry. I just do not agree with you. I think subscription service for software is ridiculous. Leave that to the giants over at autodesk, thank you very much. If Newtek decides to ever do that, that's their decision, so let's not egg on pay increases or subscription fees. Please.

DragonFist
02-27-2008, 03:59 PM
I like Newtek's pay structure and is a main reason I use Lightwave over other software.

Felt that I needed to make that clear. :lwicon:

Pavlov
02-27-2008, 04:09 PM
Pagnozzi - count me on your side on this ;)

Paolo

hrgiger
02-27-2008, 04:44 PM
What I don't get is the Pre-beta Beta. I mean, why are there users(who have already stated that they are not employees of Newtek) already beta testing the software to get it ready for the public beta, so that we can get it ready for an actual release? Why not just put it straight to public beta, have more users testing it, get more feedback or bug reports, so that fixes can be addressed more quickly?

jin choung
02-27-2008, 04:57 PM
count me firmly AGAINST pagnozzi's idea.

if i wanted an unaffordable, expensive app, i would own maya.

if you like expensive subscriber services, you can go autodesk y'know....

the moment that the pay/price structure changes to a subscription is the moment that one of the primary incentives for me to stay with lw disappears.

seriously, a modest price and upkeep price is one of the most compelling reasons to go lightwave! there are certainly lots of better apps out there if price is not an issue!

hr,

you're right. it doesn't make sense. but i have a feeling they're using the "public beta" as basically a release "with excuses"... that's how they're treating it.

annoyingly, this also allows them to keep things in "public beta" for a pretty long time. (and then can't even be bothered to rename the final gold download file so everybody downloading the final release has to wonder "why is this still labeled beta?!)

the "REAL" beta is the private beta.

jin

theo
02-27-2008, 05:02 PM
What I don't get is the Pre-beta Beta. I mean, why are there users(who have already stated that they are not employees of Newtek) already beta testing the software to get it ready for the public beta, so that we can get it ready for an actual release? Why not just put it straight to public beta, have more users testing it, get more feedback or bug reports, so that fixes can be addressed more quickly?

You've echoed my thoughts. It appears the broad beta-testing constituency is on the chopping block.

It would have taken little effort to inform the 9.3 beta-crowd the next beta (9.5) was closed to most of us:

"Folks, we appreciate the feedback up to this point but we've made the decision to move the next beta release into a tighter beta-testing environment. Your services will not be needed at this time."

DogBoy
02-27-2008, 05:20 PM
You've echoed my thoughts. It appears the broad beta-testing constituency is on the chopping block.

It would have taken little effort to inform the 9.3 beta-crowd the next beta (9.5) was closed to most of us:

"Folks, we appreciate the feedback up to this point but we've made the decision to move the next beta release into a tighter beta-testing environment. Your services will not be needed at this time."

If that were the case, why bother announcing an Open Beta session starting in early March? Open Beta strikes me a a good thing for all concerned. NT get a large group of people hitting on their software. The testers get to help to shape how features are applied. Win Win.

wavemaster
02-27-2008, 05:32 PM
you're right. it doesn't make sense. but i have a feeling they're using the "public beta" as basically a release "with excuses"... that's how they're treating it.

annoyingly, this also allows them to keep things in "public beta" for a pretty long time. (and then can't even be bothered to rename the final gold download file so everybody downloading the final release has to wonder "why is this still labeled beta?!)

the "REAL" beta is the private beta.

I thought this for a while too!
It isn't a good way to market software... we are all forced to constantly use an unfinished program. It leaves a real bad impression imo! I would shoot myself if I was on a mac!

Giacomo99
02-27-2008, 05:38 PM
For whatever it's worth: the reason I'm still using Lightwave and haven't migrated to Max or Maya is the sunk cost in time of learning the program (I'm an artist by nature, and I really, really suck at learning software.) I'm slowly learning modo, but I wish I didn't need to--I'd much rather see Modeler improving to emulate at least some of modo's functionality. Lately I have the feeling that Lightwave is a slowly leaking boat that will sooner or later need to be abandoned.

I don't know how much a subscription might cost, but I'd gladly pay a few hundred bucks a year if it meant NewTek would do a better job keeping Lightwave on par with the other major 3D apps.

Wonderpup
02-27-2008, 05:41 PM
but IF the developer of fiberfactory is now working for NT, no resources should be removed from what ever feature you wanted to have as the only person working with the fiberfx will be its original developer.

But he will want to be paid for his work, which means finite resources are being employed that could, in theory, be employed elsewhere.

As I said, I have no idea if this is the case, but I don't think its such a great sin to raise the question- why are resources being applied to issues that were never part of the original spec, when there seems to be a problem with delivery of that spec.

My feeling is that the big core stuff is stalled, and the hair stuff is lollipops to keep the kids quiet till things get sorted out. Nothing wrong with that I guess, but not really what I was personaly looking for.

Bill Carey
02-27-2008, 05:56 PM
wow...and I thought the Daz forums could get negative about the upcoming 6.1 release of Carrara.

At least Newtek are starting to show us what is coming up, even if they aren't finished enough to produce professional quality renders yet (or they haven't time to produce them). And Jay and others do respond to requests for more information.

I am starting to understand why Daz stay so tight lipped about their next release bar dropping a few hints:thumbsdow

I agree with other people here who said sit back, watch and see what comes, the feature list at least sounds interesting :)

I have to agree, this thread is amazing. Why are they wasting time giving me fur and hair? Why aren't they giving me the same functionality as a seat of Maya with a flock of $500+ plugins in my point release?

LW must not be too inefficient, seems to be lot's of time for complaining! :D I'll just wait and see I guess. (The furry cat button would be nice though)

hrgiger
02-27-2008, 06:10 PM
If that were the case, why bother announcing an Open Beta session starting in early March? Open Beta strikes me a a good thing for all concerned. NT get a large group of people hitting on their software. The testers get to help to shape how features are applied. Win Win.


Who is disputing that it's a good thing? I think we all agree on that. But if it's such a good thing, why are there such a small number with access to a beta right now, while the rest of us, or rather, the majority of us, are shut out and not contributing anything helpful because all we have to offer is criticism at the handful of images we've been "allowed" to see. Which of course we're now being criticized for.

hrgiger
02-27-2008, 06:16 PM
I should amend to that because it's probably going to come off as me complaining which I don't think I am. I love the open beta process and enjoy being a part of it. I just don't understand why they would have 2 different betas, one of which is only exposing the software to a very small and seemingly select handful of participants?

GregMalick
02-27-2008, 06:57 PM
Not that I have a clue to what going on behind the scenes...
But perhaps thats a small group of alpha-testers.

jin choung
02-27-2008, 07:19 PM
nope, they've already been identified as BETA. or "closed-BETA"

jin

DragonFist
02-27-2008, 08:12 PM
"Alpha", "Beta"; Who cares?

It makes perfect sense to me that they want to streamline the OB cycle a bit. Get it as feature complete as can be and whipe out the bugs that one doesn't need too many testers to find before giving it to the wider Open-Beta.

It's like so many things. During Open-Beta, there were tons of people complaining about the obvious bugs making it to OB and didn't Newtek have any kind of internal testing, etc., etc. Makes sense to me they'd try to streamline the whole thing somewhat.

Wade
02-27-2008, 09:17 PM
If it were me I would pick the best testers -ones that reported bugs and did so well - steps to reproduce... And folk who use the product pushing the edge - that woudl be a good group to throw it at first then the wider beta. :lwicon: looking to get my grubbys on it soon.

Silkrooster
02-27-2008, 10:13 PM
I don't work for Newtek, but i can tell you one reason why they have a closed beta team, because of how many members of the open beta team that do not have a clue to what beta means.

I can not beleive how many people here are complaining about an upgrade that no one has seen yet. How does anybody know what will and what won't be part of the final upgrade. Maybe you guys are right, then again who is to say that there maybe a lot of goodies still being finalized before announcing them. If you want to complain, wait until version 10 is announce, then complain about what you did not get in version 9. Until that time, Newtek has the time to work on the features you so desire.

As for subscriptions we have that now its called upgrading. Thats the price Newtek needs to work on LW.
Silk

jin choung
02-27-2008, 10:22 PM
I don't work for Newtek, but i can tell you one reason why they have a closed beta team, because of how many members of the open beta team that do not have a clue to what beta means.


do you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle

as i've said in regards to this issue many times, it's not written in stone. but generally speaking, beta means feature lock. no more going in (to fight "feature creep" and nothing coming out unless there's something catastrophic).

primary purpose is bugfighting.

it is downright MISLEADING to say that there might be lots of goodies waiting in the wings when they've RELEASED THE FEATURE LIST to the public.

what's the sense in saying something like that?

----------------------------------------------------------

i know you're speaking in general so this is not a direct response to you.

but i for one am NOT condemning anything in any finality. i am JUDGING WHAT I AM SEEING as i see it.

if even this is not welcome, what in the world is the point of showing us anything then?

-----------------------------------------------------------

ultimately, the ones who will complain will complain. the ones who cannot tolerate complaints now will only come up with reasons why we can't complain after release ("how dare you, it's free", "it's only the first implementation", blah blah blah).

jin

Silkrooster
02-27-2008, 10:35 PM
There are quite a few people to subscribe to be a beta member, then run the software as the final. Then they complain because something does not work right. No duh, it not suppose to yet. Thats the whole point of the beta to find and fix bugs nothing more.
Silk

do you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle

as i've said in regards to this issue many times, it's not written in stone. but generally speaking, beta means feature lock. no more going in (to fight "feature creep" and nothing coming out unless there's something catastrophic).

primary purpose is bugfighting.

it is downright MISLEADING to say that there might be lots of goodies waiting in the wings when they've RELEASED THE FEATURE LIST to the public.

what's the sense in saying something like that?

----------------------------------------------------------

i know you're speaking in general so this is not a direct response to you.

but i for one am NOT condemning anything in any finality. i am JUDGING WHAT I AM SEEING as i see it.

if even this is not welcome, what in the world is the point of showing us anything then?

-----------------------------------------------------------

ultimately, the ones who will complain will complain. the ones who cannot tolerate complaints now will only come up with reasons why we can't complain after release ("how dare you, it's free", "it's only the first implementation", blah blah blah).

jin

loki74
02-27-2008, 10:40 PM
i am JUDGING WHAT I AM SEEING as i see it.

if even this is not welcome, what in the world is the point of showing us anything then?

-----------------------------------------------------------

ultimately, the ones who will complain will complain. the ones who cannot tolerate complaints now will only come up with reasons why we can't complain after release ("how dare you, it's free", "it's only the first implementation", blah blah blah).

jin


Jin, I entirely understand where you are coming from. I should think that NT would welcome any genuine observations and criticisms, or else why release these images? Certainly it would be erroneous to believe that NT is allowing these images out just so that they can get a pat on the back.

However, the fact is that these new features are very exciting. How long have we been moaning about how much we want hair? How cool are those IES lights? Sure, they may not be the best out there, but nothing is when it first starts out. And you can say NT should have started ages ago. I say, "who cares?" What matters is that we are finally starting to get some of the things we've been begging for.

So can you really blame people for getting excited about this? Who cares if it's not 100% rational, let them be happy. I say, there is very much reason to be happy here.

And, the fact that this is a free release to current users should not be so readily trivialized. Developers do deserve to eat too, you know... not to mention that LW already has a surprisingly low price point, and, AFAIK, it outdoes every other big-name 3D app on the market as far as the bang-buck ratio goes (except maybe A:M and obviously Blender).

jin choung
02-27-2008, 10:52 PM
i don't begrudge anyone the right to be excited. fine be excited.

and i'm not trivializing the fact that it is a free release. it's great that it's a free release... as we have expected it to be.... as it has been.

look - i want to avoid being completely crass about it so i left some things unsaid as "other reasons" but there are INDEED lots of reasons why "gratitude" does not and should not come into play in regards to whether one can express dissatisfaction. that is my simple point - "gratitude" need not nullify complaint. it doesn't apply.

again, that was covered in - "wanted a hat, got a tie" portion of the discussion.

and if you can read my mind, you can also see all the additional reasons why gratitude does not apply that i am leaving unspoken.

jin

p.s. BTW, i COMPLETELY agree and have NEVER SAID OTHERWISE - price performance wise, lw cannot possibly be beaten. but as i've also said, they really have to watch their back with blender. A:M and blender both have had issues but blender is fast shedding its share....

loki74
02-27-2008, 11:59 PM
i don't begrudge anyone the right to be excited. fine be excited.

Then for the love of all that is good, let them be excited in peace! Criticism is fine, and so is argument. But there is a cordial (and much more effective) way to go about both... If I may be so daring as to say so, it is my opinion that you, sir, have not been very cordial.



and i'm not trivializing the fact that it is a free release. it's great that it's a free release... as we have expected it to be.... as it has been.

Then, let me put it this way: the fact that this release is free is most certainly a factor in what can and should be expected.


look - i want to avoid being completely crass about it so i left some things unsaid as "other reasons" but there are INDEED lots of reasons why "gratitude" does not and should not come into play in regards to whether one can express dissatisfaction. that is my simple point - "gratitude" need not nullify complaint. it doesn't apply.


"Gratitude?" This is merely a point of semantics. And if a person may be excited, why not grateful? ZBrush 3 will FINALLY and after MUCH ADO be released on OSX in the coming months. I've got many complaints with the tardiness of this release. It's frustrating. Frankly, Pix's site didn't make it clear that ZB3 on Mac NEEDED BootCamp or Parallels or other VMware. I thought I'd be able to hop into V3. D*mmit, I was pissed. But now that it's here, you bet I'm grateful. I'm grateful Pix didn't rush the release. I'm grateful that they're EVEN DEVELOPING on OSX (Apple hasn't been terribly helpful in this regard).

I can scarce imagine a situation in which gratitude is not appropriate.

Of course, speaking from an economic perspective, gratitude has no place. But I don't think we're all talking business here...at least, I am not.



again, that was covered in - "wanted a hat, got a tie" portion of the discussion.

Wanted a hat? Got a tie? Got a really crappy tie? Don't forget that a) the tie is free, b) while you may have wanted a hat, there were hundreds of other folks screaming for ties.


and if you can read my mind


Never made the claim.



p.s. BTW, i COMPLETELY agree and have NEVER SAID OTHERWISE - price performance wise, lw cannot possibly be beaten. but as i've also said, they really have to watch their back with blender. A:M and blender both have had issues but blender is fast shedding its share....


Glad we agree. ^___^

jin choung
02-28-2008, 12:36 AM
Then for the love of all that is good, let them be excited in peace! Criticism is fine, and so is argument. But there is a cordial (and much more effective) way to go about both... If I may be so daring as to say so, it is my opinion that you, sir, have not been very cordial.

how am i not letting them be excited in peace? the only way in which i am "interfering" with the joyful, orgiastic festivities is to simply have my say. so you are saying i am both entitled to my opinion but shut up?

you may not be so daring because you are wrong. when have i not been cordial when greeted in cordiality? cite me an example if you can find it.

also, you may not be so daring because who are you to judge and who are you that i should listen? i'm not the one sporting temerity here.

engage me on the issues or contest me on my observations. but who the he11 are you to judge me?

jin

rakker16mm
02-28-2008, 12:42 AM
The only people who know enough about the 9.5 upgrade to PROPERLY critique it are the people who are working on it, such as the software engineers, or have had a chance to try it out, such as the Beta testers. Every one els is talking out of their hat. I only wish I was fortunate enough to be on the Beta team, but as I am not I will wait until it comes out before I give it a :thumbsup: or :thumbsdow

jin choung
02-28-2008, 12:46 AM
Then, let me put it this way: the fact that this release is free is most certainly a factor in what can and should be expected.

lol. GREAT! "you get what you pay for" ????

"Gratitude?" This is merely a point of semantics. And if a person may be excited, why not grateful?

certainly. why not? BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT. people keep jumping in and MISSING or FORGETTING THE POINT. the point is, people have brought up the notion of GRATITUDE TO SHUT UP CRITICISM. T*H*A*T* is the notion that i have fought against from the beginning. GO BACK AND READ WHAT I SAID.

Of course, speaking from an economic perspective, gratitude has no place. But I don't think we're all talking business here...at least, I am not.

if we are not, FREE (as in - without charge) UPGRADE has no power to elicit anything. free only has meaning in an economic perspective.

Wanted a hat? Got a tie? Got a really crappy tie? Don't forget that a) the tie is free, b) while you may have wanted a hat, there were hundreds of other folks screaming for ties.

a. you failed to read or understand that part in that conversation where i SPECIFICALLY SAID - getting a crappy tie for free is scant occasion to celebrate! am i the only one that doesn't get that? am i the only one that thinks a (and using an extreme example because i seem to be failing to connect by not being extreme) "FREE SH!T SANDWICH" is not much of an occasion?

seriously.... <exasperated sigh>

b. you also seem to have neglected the part where i acknowledge this in full.
-------------------------------------------------------------

finally, these things always get bigger and sometimes, unfortunately, nastier when we go from discussion (either praise or criticism of the issues and features) to a METAdiscussion about anyone's behavior.

let's just talk about the issues. that's what i'm doing. keep "me" and "you" out of it.

jin

loki74
02-28-2008, 01:47 AM
cite me an example if you can find it.

Will do.

Insulting other's intelligence? "all the gratitude and love folks seem to be INCAPABLE of grasping... at ANY LEVEL... WHATSOEVER."

Not cordial.

Again: "i have no idea what's wrong with those guys"

Not cordial.

Another thread: "hope you didn't hurt yourself newbie...."

Nope, not cordial (although not entirely unwarranted).

Playing the righteous victim?

but who the he11 are you to judge me?

Not cordial.

Putting words in others' mouths:

also, you may not be so daring because who are you to judge and who are you that i should listen?

Not cordial.

I'm not judging you. I'm politely asking you to be a bit more nice.

And, I will henceforth be more careful to avoid prefacing my statements with unnecessary politeness.



you are saying i am both entitled to my opinion but shut up?

No, I'm saying your entitled to your opinion, but that does not mean that people who happen to disagree with you are incapable of grasping things, newbies, or otherwise have something wrong with them... It just means they disagree with you.


lol. GREAT! "you get what you pay for" ????

Yes. Precisely. Although, from what I'm seeing, we're getting much more than we paid for...



the point is, people have brought up the notion of GRATITUDE TO SHUT UP CRITICISM

And nowhere have I agreed with this. But I find it to be so far beside any point... If people wish to ignore what you have to say simply because that is the manner in which they chose to express their gratitude (I will agree, I find it to be a flawed manner), then let them. It's not like they can ban you or anything. The only thing that can make that happen is... well, if you're mean enough to somebody and they go and (legitimately) make a stink about it.



finally, these things always get bigger and sometimes, unfortunately, nastier when we go from discussion (either praise or criticism of the issues and features) to a METAdiscussion about anyone's behavior.

let's just talk about the issues. that's what i'm doing. keep "me" and "you" out of it.


I would say that when behavior manages to become a hinderance to discussion, "metadiscussion" is appropriate. But, very well, as you wish.



"FREE SH!T SANDWICH" is not much of an occasion

Hyperbole, like "metadiscussion," won't get us anywhere. Furthermore, whether or not 9.5 is a sh!t sandwich cannot really yet be said. We don't have our hands on it yet.

Of course, the hair examples have been, IMHO, less than stellar. However, the very fact that LW is implementing (what appears to be) a native hair solution is VERY much of an occasion. If its there, they can improve it. And I imagine many of the "let's be grateful!" folks will be with the rest of us nagging NT for improvements to the system down the road. The clumpiness and frequent lack of density in what I've seen so far is not only disappointing, but outright unsatisfactory (ie, preventative of making this a viable solution imo).

What I AM impressed with, however, is the blurred reflections, render times, and motion of some of the hair examples. The fact that the hair renders in reflections, refractions, CCTV, and the refractions/reflections IN CCTV is simply wonderful. The IES lights look quite nice as well...

However, we still can't say anything about workflow, and I'm a little apprehensive about it... I also wish we could see something of the CA improvements, but to assume either way about them, I think, is rather erroneous...



IMO, the simple fact is, we really don't have much we can legitimately discuss...

jin choung
02-28-2008, 02:17 AM
Insulting other's intelligence? "all the gratitude and love folks seem to be INCAPABLE of grasping... at ANY LEVEL... WHATSOEVER."

Not cordial.

they have NOT demonstrated the ability to understand the point being made. if this is true, it is not an insult, it is a statement of fact.


Again: "i have no idea what's wrong with those guys"

Not cordial.

COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU. but I WAS DEFENDING SOMEONE ELSE WHO WAS BEING ATTACKED WITHOUT PROVOCATION.

are you not paying attention? or are you just skimming and coming to a rash and erroneous judgment.

Another thread: "hope you didn't hurt yourself newbie...."

Nope, not cordial (although not entirely unwarranted).

what did i say? if i am greeted in cordiality, it is extended. WHAT IS THE POINT OF HIS POST? i responded in kind.


Playing the righteous victim?

f no. i am no victim. aren't you paying attention. this doggie has teeth and will fight back.

and imo, you've made a pretty weak, flawed and contestable case against me.

I'm not judging you. I'm politely asking you to be a bit more nice.

do you not understand english?

"you have not been cordial" IS JUDGMENT.

"please be more nice" is a nice request.

And, I will henceforth be more careful to avoid prefacing my statements with unnecessary politeness.

considering this transaction, i would just as well not transact with you at all. the gulf of misunderstanding seems insurmountable.

No, I'm saying your entitled to your opinion, but that does not mean that people who happen to disagree with you are incapable of grasping things, newbies, or otherwise have something wrong with them... It just means they disagree with you.

you're taking a side with them. it COULD BE that they have IN FACT not demonstrated the ability to grasp the concept (as you seem unable to) of having a problem with something that is nonetheless free.

you can take that as an insult. i am stating it as a MATTER OF FACT. READ THEIR RESPONSES. they FOR WHATEVER REASON cannot understand what i'm saying! if you interpret it as an insult, that is how you're taking it. it need not extend to me.

Yes. Precisely. Although, from what I'm seeing, we're getting much more than we paid for...

ugh... lol... do you have any idea what i meant? ... that you agree with it?

try to follow along - you get what you pay for. if something is, then, FREE... that means the quality of what you get is crap.... THAT is why i thought it was "lol" of you to say....

aaaarrrrrrrghghghgghghhg!

Hyperbole, like "metadiscussion," won't get us anywhere. Furthermore, whether or not 9.5 is a sh!t sandwich cannot really yet be said. We don't have our hands on it yet.

your "furthermore" again implicates a profound lack of understanding. I AM NOT IMPLYING OR SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT 9.5! you quote the words but evidently fail to understand them: IT IS FOR ILLUSTRATION PURPOSES ONLY - TO ILLUSTRATE THAT THE IDEA OF GRATITUDE IS NOT ALWAYS APPLICABLE BECAUSE SOMETHING IS FREE!

IMO, the simple fact is, we really don't have much we can legitimately discuss...


another area where we totally agree.

finally, if THIS post (and the post previous) has seemed "uncordial" it is indeed because i have taken umbrage with your post. just so we're clear.

stick to the issues and stop trying to play teacher and things should be fine.

jin

DarkLight
02-28-2008, 02:25 AM
What I don't get is the Pre-beta Beta. I mean, why are there users(who have already stated that they are not employees of Newtek) already beta testing the software to get it ready for the public beta, so that we can get it ready for an actual release? Why not just put it straight to public beta, have more users testing it, get more feedback or bug reports, so that fixes can be addressed more quickly?

The reason for a closed beta is to fix some of the bigger bugs that would be present before letting the rest of us test it. Unfortunately many people when using the beta versions forget what the beta testing is for and expect a production ready version.

If Newtek were to release the open beta version too early then they would get nothing but complaints that the software is unusable because it keeps crashing.

In regards to Hair, i'm surprised how much negativity there is so far. It wasn't that long ago that many people were saying that Lightwave had no future unless it had an integrated hair solution. Personally i'm looking forward to the open beta to play with some of the new features :)

pooby
02-28-2008, 02:51 AM
In regards to Hair, i'm surprised how much negativity there is so far. It wasn't that long ago that many people were saying that Lightwave had no future unless it had an integrated hair solution.

I'm sure the people who said that about Hair still hold by it, and the ones that aren't interested in hair and have never been, still feel that.

You can't lump all the LW forum users together and treat them as one character that keeps changing its mind.


I agree with you on the Beta thing though. People do tend to treat beta software as if it's the final version, but that's the problem with Open beta stuff, you forget the beta part and just see it as a release.

hrgiger
02-28-2008, 04:00 AM
The reason for a closed beta is to fix some of the bigger bugs that would be present before letting the rest of us test it. Unfortunately many people when using the beta versions forget what the beta testing is for and expect a production ready version.

Did that come straight from Newtek? Or are you just pulling that one out of the air because it sounds nice? Did they ask the closed beta testers if they were going to "forget" that this is merely a beta and not a production ready version? Is that why they're so special? I still fail to see how it is helpful to have less people testing the software right out of the gate.


If Newtek were to release the open beta version too early then they would get nothing but complaints that the software is unusable because it keeps crashing.

Trust me, no matter what point Newtek releases the open beta, there are people who are going to complain that the program is unusable. You don't have to be in beta to have that, just surf the regular forums for a while. We're going to have people still complaining that CC's aren't usable the first day of open beta, I guarantee it(in fact, I may be one of them). Unless of course they are fixed which doesn't seem likely since it was not mentioned anywhere.

Dodgy
02-28-2008, 04:03 AM
I don't think they mentioned bugs because this is a feature release... That said, I'm sure quite a few got squashed while they were away. Whether CC are part of that is yet to be seen.....

colkai
02-28-2008, 05:01 AM
nope, they've already been identified as BETA. or "closed-BETA"

jin
Again, I hate to bring it up, but it's a coding thing.

As long as I have coded, we code, test in house, open up to "alpha" sites, a very few folks. They test, as a site we know who focus on heavy testing of critical features.
It then goes to closed-Beta, a wider range of sites, with some understanding of what is required.
Then, before it goes "public", we sent to a wide section of pre-release sites to hone it as close as possible before releasing it to Joe Public.

This gives us controlled stages of bug testing, from people we trust to report in a correct manner.
Once it hits something like open-beta, which is near as dammit release, you cannot trust the users to differentiate between testing, problems, broken features or things they simply don't like.

Case in point, a lot of folks here have whined and moaned during the phases of Beta but haven't actually contributed to true bug testing and reporting.

As a coder, I could care less what your personal opinion of a feature is when you're supposed to be beta testing it. I'm more interested if you can break a feature, either by using it and highlighting a flaw, or doing something unexpected and finding a 'hole' in it.

Stomping ones feet claiming ones viewpoint of life as the one truth doesn't help anyone acutally trying to improve code. Complaining about what features are "under-developed" or "missing" doesn't mean squat about finding bugs in the existing code. Which is, when all is said and done, the thrust of Beta-testing, the clue is in the title, 'testing' and not 'release'.

Also, quoting Wiki doesn't mean a darned thing. I'm speaking from 28+ years "in the trenches" here, the real world, in business.

theo
02-28-2008, 07:04 AM
People do tend to treat beta software as if it's the final version

Generally speaking, this IS the function of beta-testers. You don't want to treat beta as 'beta', solely, or the collective incentive to scrounge out the crawling creepies is minimized.

pooby
02-28-2008, 07:19 AM
Well, maybe 'judge' would have been a better word

*Pete*
02-28-2008, 07:43 AM
as i've said in regards to this issue many times, it's not written in stone. but generally speaking, beta means feature lock. no more going in (to fight "feature creep" and nothing coming out unless there's something catastrophic).

primary purpose is bugfighting.

it is downright MISLEADING to say that there might be lots of goodies waiting in the wings when they've RELEASED THE FEATURE LIST to the public.


I took part in all 9.x betas so far, all of them had one thing in common...new features were added all the time during the beta phase, only to stop during the gold/pre-release stage, even the 9,31 beta that was supposed to be a bug killing session was awared new features.

when announcing a new version of the beta NT always added a updated list of new (if any) features added, improvements made and bugs killed.

While you may be correct about the meaning of the word "beta", NT doesnt have a history of not adding in new features.
Did you take part in the open beta previously?...perhaps you should.

theo
02-28-2008, 07:57 AM
This may be the best time for NT to initiate the inclusion of new features. I have never worked with a more stable version of Lightwave than the current release.

jin choung
02-28-2008, 11:34 AM
While you may be correct about the meaning of the word "beta", NT doesnt have a history of not adding in new features.
Did you take part in the open beta previously?...perhaps you should.

i wasn't able to actively participate. but i kept up with the news bits as they popped up.

i don't remember the addition of lots of new features during beta. like what?

errrr, and i'm disinclined to count a cascade of different subsurfscat nodes but that's just me.....

jin

jin choung
02-28-2008, 11:46 AM
Again, I hate to bring it up, but it's a coding thing.


again, i hate to repeat myself but i understand and agree that it's malleable and organic.

i am only trying to treat a word as if it had some meaning as opposed to having none. sorry, i'm funny that way.

and most of the things you talked about in your post - bug squashing, i am in complete agreement with. we both agree then THAT is the primary purpose of beta. as opposed to a period of "feature creep" without consequence.... as opposed to radical reimplementation of new features that make comment on their results completely pointless (which is a contention i've been countering).

jin

loki74
02-28-2008, 12:54 PM
they have NOT demonstrated the ability to understand the point being made. if this is true, it is not an insult, it is a statement of fact.

Fact? Sounds like your opinion. Rather judgmental, I might add.



f no. i am no victim. aren't you paying attention. this doggie has teeth and will fight back.

"Has teeth and will fight back?" Unless you mean to say that you are a doggie who will just attack people for the heck of it, you mean to say that you have been wronged. With some exceptions, I will maintain that you have not. Thus defined: playing the victim.


do you not understand english?

"you have not been cordial" IS JUDGMENT.

"please be more nice" is a nice request.

"You have not been cordial" is my honest opinion. And, as I believe I have made clear, I would not be so brazenly arrogant as call my opinion "fact."

And yes, I do understand English. Quite well, in fact. Please, in the future, be so kind as to not insult my intelligence (and I do apologize if this request is not nice enough).


what did i say? if i am greeted in cordiality, it is extended. WHAT IS THE POINT OF HIS POST? i responded in kind.

Very well. I can accept this.



you're taking a side with them. it COULD BE that they have IN FACT not demonstrated the ability to grasp the concept (as you seem unable to) of having a problem with something that is nonetheless free.

you can take that as an insult. i am stating it as a MATTER OF FACT. READ THEIR RESPONSES. they FOR WHATEVER REASON cannot understand what i'm saying! if you interpret it as an insult, that is how you're taking it. it need not extend to me.

"Sides?" Please. I would just like the forums to be a nicer place. You'll notice that in the other thread I spoke out against that rather juvenile post which, imho, appeared to be leveled against you. Yes, I know, I'm not a mod. However, I do not believe that anything that has been said so far is of such gravity that it would warrant action by the mods.

And has it occurred to you that just perhaps, the problem is not that they fail to understand, but a) disagree, and b) are further inclined to do so because they feel you're being impolite? It seems to me that the majority of the people here, myself included, agree with most of what you have to say (for me, especially what you had to say about the subscription idea...eew). It appears to me that those who disagree do so because that is their opinion, not because they somehow lack the intelligence to wrap their heads around what you have to say...


ugh... lol... do you have any idea what i meant? ... that you agree with it?

try to follow along - you get what you pay for. if something is, then, FREE... that means the quality of what you get is crap.... THAT is why i thought it was "lol" of you to say....

aaaarrrrrrrghghghgghghhg!


Please, there's no need to become so aggravated. Let me put it to you this way--with the price point being at zero, we have a situation in which there is a very large consumer surplus. Of course, I'm not including the hair system where it stands, for reasons I've previously mentioned. What I'm saying is that not ALL of what we're getting is crap (and frankly, crap is a matter of opinion), but, we are still getting it for free. So, for the price of crap, we get something better than crap.


your "furthermore" again implicates a profound lack of understanding. I AM NOT IMPLYING OR SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT 9.5! you quote the words but evidently fail to understand them: IT IS FOR ILLUSTRATION PURPOSES ONLY - TO ILLUSTRATE THAT THE IDEA OF GRATITUDE IS NOT ALWAYS APPLICABLE BECAUSE SOMETHING IS FREE!

No need to shout. I think it should have been clear--I am saying that your "illustration" is fundamentally flawed. If you are not saying anything about 9.5 (and by "9.5" I mean the new features we are getting), what precisely do you speak of? The images that have been released? The feature list? NT's plan? Furthermore, a crap sandwich has no value. In fact, it has negative value. The new features in 9.5 likely do have value, at the bare minimum, they have zero value. Certainly not negative value. I believe the saying, "oranges and apples" is appropriate here. Thus, you've used a flawed illustration (and this is the reason why hyperbolic allegories seldom hold water).


...i have taken umbrage with your post. just so we're clear.

Allow me to apologize if my opinion has offended you.


considering this transaction, i would just as well not transact with you at all. the gulf of misunderstanding seems insurmountable.

Duly noted. Goodbye.

Stooch
02-28-2008, 01:16 PM
I think that a truly cordial person would simply ignore any posts he/she doesnt agree with and move on. infact the vast majority of people do this. anyone that feels the need to get onto a soap box is being just as much of an *** as the guy who feels he should criticise. i doubt that most people like to be told what to say and how to do it. if you cant deal with it, dont read it or take it to pm otherwise - you will just antagonize and throw gas on the fire. Infact its pretty obvious that the guy starting all the preaching has no chance of succeeding in his "public trial" other then putting on a show for the rest of the cordial posters. its obvious, if you really want to impact someone talk via PM, thats why its called personal messages... for personal issues. at the end of the day neither parties will agree and begin to hate each other. ive said it before, this usually happens to people who dont get out much. and if this insulted anyone, ill say right now that i dont care. :)

hrgiger
02-28-2008, 02:00 PM
I really hate these threads where it turns into a bunch of quoting and responding to each thought as if somehow it's going to unconditionally prove they're right. Like we care.

RedBull
02-28-2008, 02:36 PM
Like we care.

Yeah forums are like that a lot these days......

I kind of hope Maya is really good, so these Maya centric spammers go and use Maya, instead of thinking that their LW opinion does matter to us LW centric people..

Puguglybonehead
02-28-2008, 06:34 PM
Well, I'm totally stoked about the the 'Fur & Hair' and can't wait to try it out! (my avatar's getting pretty old now). It was something that was up at the top of my wish list. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

The 9.X cycle has already fulfilled a lot of my wishes: faster rendering, faster radiosity, nodal texturing, better motion blur, and improved antialiasing. What's been announced for 9.5 is looking even better.

loki74
02-28-2008, 06:47 PM
@ above: Hrm... true. I seem to have polluted and derailed this thread. I apologize. The truth is, I really don't care about convincing people of stuff; I just really enjoy arguing (and for the record, I don't hate anyone here). PM would have been better. If the mods want to delete my posts, I'll not object.


I'll try to bring this back... as far as the stable, well-implemented painting of weightmaps goes, I think that would be cool, but I personally think I'd find more use for a good hair system (being on an Intel Mac, Sas is out of the question). Of course, as I've mentioned, where it is right now, the 9.5 hair has lots of room for improvement.

I also don't remember hearing a whole lot of fuss about painting weightmaps earlier? Maybe I wasn't reading enough, but the sense I got was that native hair was a huge priority and very much in demand (much more so than the weightmap issue). So OP's post kind of surprises me...

hrgiger
02-28-2008, 07:10 PM
Well, sooner or later, Newtek is going to have to implement a good system of joints/skinning. That is, if they're serious about improving character animation. Painting weight maps in Layout would be a good workflow improvement, but I think it would just be a band-aid on top of a current implementation that really needs overhauled. Weight maps really only get you so far. You can paint a weight map that makes a joint look good at one end of an angle, but bend it the other way, and it breaks apart. We need more precision and control.

animotion
02-28-2008, 07:39 PM
I'm with you hrgiger 100% on this one.

Dodgy
02-28-2008, 09:06 PM
I'd go with joint/morph sculpting. A plugin crossed between editFX and jointmorph, which meant the morph was actually what was sculpted instead of an approximation like it is at the moment.

Silkrooster
02-28-2008, 09:32 PM
I'd just be happy with what ever is thrown my way. I'll leave the request for CA up to you guys, kind of out of my area. (for now)
Silk

silviotoledo
05-30-2008, 01:26 PM
Hey!

VERTEX PAINT IS SO POWERFULL TO PAINT WEIGHTS AS MAYA


Sorry for the big red word, but I've been asking a better way to paint weights in layout too, so I went to use Maya and latter I discovered Vertex Paint copied all the itens. Yeah, it's true! You can do the same with vertex paint!

It's a perfect solution hidden on lightwave. Try it! I'm so happy to share this to this comunity!

Just learn to use it!

it has a manual, but I will reveal crtl allow you to rotate bones and see the result, with geometry feedback while painting.

silviotoledo
05-30-2008, 01:28 PM
Hey Dodgy!

Offtopic

We need a plugin to parent 3 nulls on each bone ( middle and extremes ) and to set automatically a Collision Sphere.

So this will solve a collision problem from cloth fx.

:)

silviotoledo
05-30-2008, 01:33 PM
Did someone tried it?

Same realtime feedback as Maya :) Amazing!

Dodgy
05-30-2008, 06:12 PM
Hey Dodgy!

Offtopic

We need a plugin to parent 3 nulls on each bone ( middle and extremes ) and to set automatically a Collision Sphere.

So this will solve a collision problem from cloth fx.

:)

I did something similar with http://www.mikegreen.name/Lscripts.html#AddCollisionNulls

But it adds just one I think.. Give it a go and see what you think.

Dodgy
05-30-2008, 06:33 PM
VERTEX PAINT IS SO POWERFULL TO PAINT WEIGHTS AS MAYA


I agree it's a much better way to paint per bone weightmaps, especially since it has a normalization function. Also, Lw has the really useful ability to cut and paste meshes and keep weight values. This means you can cut an arm off (put it in a new layer or object), weight it, and then paste it back and you'll keep the weighting. It makes for a much easier way of painting weights in complex objects.

silviotoledo
05-30-2008, 08:49 PM
Thanks MIKE. The plugin is really cool!

If we have 3 ( or more ) objects distributed around the bone lenght, it would be better to keep the character anatomy.

Yeah, I agree LW weights is better than Maya ones once Maya doesn't keep relation between the weight and the bone. On Maya, if you add a New bone ( joint ), it will bite part of the weightmap from the other, to normalize. This is really bad if you have to add muscles to a character, once muscles will require a new weightmap area and will destruct the weight job you did for bones, once Maya will not allow 2 weights overlapping.

About painting weights on vertex paint, just rotate the bone as you want and keep painting weights and you will see the geometry moving to a better shape, just like maya do. Amazing.

evenflcw
05-31-2008, 11:07 AM
VP is very capable, but it's main pitfalls is that it doesn't work with bones, just skelegons, and it runs in a separate window rather than right in Modeler/Layout. NT must take the knowhow that was put into it and reapply it so it is properly integrated.

serge
05-31-2008, 02:49 PM
...but it's main pitfalls is that it doesn't work with bones, just skelegons, ...
I don't have any experience with Vertex Paint, but the manual says:

Use Vertex Loader to load objects with bones that were created from scratch in Layout, or bones that were converted from Skelegons, in order to edit the Weight Maps in Vertex Paint.

silviotoledo
06-01-2008, 06:59 AM
Yeah, vertex paint also works with bones and skelegons. The solution is completes, the problem is that it's another software done by a japanese company and is not totally integrated.

evenflcw
06-01-2008, 07:47 AM
I stand corrected. It does work with bones. But yes, it still obviously is not as good as a weight tool right inside layout.

Anyone wanting to try it should be aware that it.. :
...doesn't support the new 9.x LWS format, you need to export to LW6.x format.
...only reads keyframed motion. (I was a happily surprised to find out that it atleast did that).

lucas1977
06-08-2008, 12:33 AM
Dos the new hair 9.5 have shadows?

Chuck
06-10-2008, 12:05 PM
Reminder to Open Beta participants: v9.5 is in Open Beta and under NDA. NewTek staff may field questions with regard to v9.5 features. Open Beta users may not do so. I've removed one such message from this thread.

As for the question: Yes, there is support for shadows in the polygon and volumetric modes. Reflections and refraction are also supported. For more detailed information, if you are a v9 user you are elegible to join Open Beta and test the v9.5 release, as well as discuss it with other v9.5 OB users in the Open Beta forum sections.

silviotoledo
06-10-2008, 12:19 PM
Sorry chuck! I forgot I was on the public and not beta forum