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View Full Version : Delete EDGES (not possible?)



ben martin
02-20-2008, 04:29 AM
Hi,

People, yesterday I noticed something that is somewhat weird to my modeling logic. If I select an edge (from any poly mesh) and try to delete it, it's not possible??? Is this common behavior? Why?

serge
02-20-2008, 05:17 AM
What did you expect would happen to a polygon if you could delete an edge?

Skonk
02-20-2008, 05:48 AM
What I think serge was trying to get at, is a polygon cannot exist without the edges around it, so deleting an edge on a single polygon would destroy the entire polygon (if the delete operation was possible).

Deleting an edge between 2 polygons in theory could just merge the 2 polygons into 1, in Lightwave this can be done by selecting the 2 polygons and hitting shift + Z so I don't think working this into an edge delete would be too hard.

KillMe
02-20-2008, 06:40 AM
actaully ona single poly is possible only not possible on a 2 point poly - a quad would become a 2 point poly and a 3 point poly become a single point poly - anything above you still have a completely valid poly

but yeah when delteing an edge between 2 polys it should merge the polys would be a much more versatile system than the merge polys as you could do multple merges at once with control of where the merge happens even with polys sitting next to each other

was dispaointed when we finally got edges and couldn't do that - or a proper edge bevel for that matter

as they stand at the moment edges in lw are a purely cosmetic thing =/ all the operations with them except perhaps extending work exactly teh same as the point selecting the same section

ftown
02-20-2008, 07:19 AM
I use the Edgepack modeler tools when working with edges in LW, nice set to add to LW imho. (free)

http://www.symmetrix.com.au/index.php?page=plugins.php

ben martin
02-20-2008, 07:51 AM
What did you expect would happen to a polygon if you could delete an edge?
Hi, already replyed above.
To a quad poly it could turn it in a tri-poly.
To a more complex mesh it should merge the affected poly's.

ftown:
Thank you very much... I'll try that pack :hey:

DogBoy
02-20-2008, 08:01 AM
To a quad poly it could turn it in a tri-poly. :hey:

Well to get a tri you'd wanna select 2 edges, otherwise it is a 50/50 chance it will make the poly wrong. What you want is a remove point tool, i.e. opposite of add point, so it would remove either a point from all polys or from only the selected polys.

Skonk
02-20-2008, 08:16 AM
Tbh i dont even use edge mode in lightwave because how it stands now you can do everything by selecting 2 points. Seems to me like edge mode in lw is more like a proxy for selecting 2 points.

ben martin
02-20-2008, 09:42 AM
Tbh i dont even use edge mode in lightwave because how it stands now you can do everything by selecting 2 points. Seems to me like edge mode in lw is more like a proxy for selecting 2 points.
Yup, you got a point... err.. two points! :)

JeffrySG
02-20-2008, 09:50 AM
You could always try to 'dissolve' the edge. OR 'merge' the two polys that share that same edge...

Bookman
02-20-2008, 12:08 PM
you can delete edges in Maya and it just connects that poly to the adjacent one. there is no reason why it should not be the same in LW.

colkai
02-20-2008, 12:22 PM
Is it my faulty memory, but didn't some plugin, somewhere, have a 'dissolve edges' function which did what you'd expect a 'delete edges' to do?

ben martin
02-20-2008, 12:47 PM
Is it my faulty memory, but didn't some plugin, somewhere, have a 'dissolve edges' function which did what you'd expect a 'delete edges' to do?
Absolutely right!!!
COSTRUCT -> REDUCE -> DISSOLVE Yuhu!

Thank you! :thumbsup:

jin choung
02-20-2008, 11:55 PM
but again, this is not a good thing. 'delete' should be 'operator overloaded' instead of having discrete tools for discrete entities. we shouldn't have to have a separate bevel tool for edges and polys and verts.

as for the first two responses after the original post, they're very lw-centric.

as has been noted, if you delete an edge, you would (in non lw and just intuitive terms) get a poly without that edge! so if you have a quad with a diagonal edge turning them into two triangles, deleting that middle edge should give you a quad.

even in the extreme example of deleting an edge off a quad (one of the outside edges), there would still be a logical result of an edge deletion - a 2 point polyline.

(but in lw's defense, it comes from a tradition of modeling where the tools are designed so as to almost enforce regular quad geometry - unlike other apps which have tools that have no scruples of letting you create some really nasty geometry... but... of course... this at the expense of flexibility but a good restriction for newbs)

anyhoo....

ugh.... sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much consolidation that needs to happen in modeler before it can be considered beautiful again......

ehhhhhh.......

jin

colkai
02-21-2008, 02:20 AM
Absolutely right!!!
COSTRUCT -> REDUCE -> DISSOLVE Yuhu!

Thank you! :thumbsup:
You're welcome.
Glad to know I wasn't dreaming hehe... :)

ben martin
02-22-2008, 03:08 AM
You're welcome.
Glad to know I wasn't dreaming hehe... :)
Hummm, second thought... I agree with Jin... this dissolve command does not behave like a true edge delete, since the modeler does not recalculate the new geometry shape.
See the images to clarify.

Cageman
02-22-2008, 12:18 PM
Hummm, second thought... I agree with Jin... this dissolve command does not behave like a true edge delete, since the modeler does not recalculate the new geometry shape.
See the images to clarify.

Yes.. there is some trial and error to what to use (delete or dissolve). Try selecting an edgeloop and delete it. You cant, but if you dissolve it, it will look right.

Sarford
02-22-2008, 12:42 PM
Hummm, second thought... I agree with Jin... this dissolve command does not behave like a true edge delete, since the modeler does not recalculate the new geometry shape.
See the images to clarify.


The way you are thinking, you'd never could make an n-gon by deleting edges.
I tried your test both in XSI and Silo 2 and both programs behave the same as Lightwave. The only difference here that in XSI and Silo 2 you can select an edge and just hit delete to delete it.

ben martin
02-22-2008, 03:38 PM
The way you are thinking, you'd never could make an n-gon by deleting edges.
I tried your test both in XSI and Silo 2 and both programs behave the same as Lightwave. The only difference here that in XSI and Silo 2 you can select an edge and just hit delete to delete it.
Well, at least, we are not alone! (XSI and Silo 2) :D

Cougar12dk
02-22-2008, 03:53 PM
Tbh i dont even use edge mode in lightwave because how it stands now you can do everything by selecting 2 points. Seems to me like edge mode in lw is more like a proxy for selecting 2 points.

You can sharpen edges without adding geometry by selecting the edge and pressing Set, Increase or Decrease sharpness in Map>Weight in Modeler.

jin choung
02-22-2008, 06:58 PM
yeah, in terms of function, the dissolve behavior looks like it's doing what it should do. maya works the same way btw.

ideally, you want the function to do the thing that you want it to do (delete the edge) and NOT extrapolate what it thinks you want (adding in other edges). cuz there are times when you don't want it to do that or OTHERS would not expect that behavior.

my complaint is that we should not have a DIFFERENT TOOL for every geometry entity. that is stupid.

jin

Sarford
02-22-2008, 07:02 PM
So true.

It would be so much better already if all those different tools used the same hot-keys, so poly bevel and edge beven both used the 'b' key.

Isn't that solvable with an lw-script or something?

jin choung
02-22-2008, 07:09 PM
yeah but then you still have a problem in the menus.

they just have to bite the bullet and start cleaning house. cuz man it's a mess....


jin

RTSchramm
02-22-2008, 09:10 PM
I got the same results in Blender 2.45, Silo 2.0, Maya 8.5, and Modo 301, so I wouldn't be too harsh on LW. It may be that all of the 3D applications are using a similar edge removal algorithm.

Rich

jin choung
02-22-2008, 10:19 PM
at least on my part, the harshness is reserved not for how dissolve works (as it should - agreed) but that it EXISTS.

OPERATOR OVERLOADING! look it up newtek!

jin

Cageman
02-23-2008, 01:15 AM
Yeah... Jin is right. There are too many tools in Modeler that has 3 versions (Edge, Poly or Point). Some tools are selection sensitive, such as Numeric panel and Statistics window. Bring that code into Extrude, Bevel etc and Modeler will automaticly go up 5 levels. :)

RTSchramm
02-23-2008, 11:37 AM
I agree with the operator over-loading stuff. The Modeler should be smart enough to determine from the mode that I'm in, vertex, edge, polygon, and automatically which to the correct version of the tool. For example, if I am in edge mode and select bevel, then I should be able to bevel the selected edge. If I'm in polygon mode, I should be able to bevel the polygon, etc.

I haven't checked any of the other 3D apps such as Maya, SIlo, or Blender yet, but this is really just basic C++ programming 101. If LW is still written in C, then the developers need to convert the code to C++. I would have switched the code over to C++ and used operator over-loading years ago. It makes the code such much more easier to maintain and add new features to.

Rich

jin choung
02-23-2008, 03:02 PM
while maya has far fewer operators than lw out of the box, they're all operator overloaded and context sensitive based on what entity you have selected.

with every new lw release, the thought that keeps occurring to me is a whiny "aw maaaaaan... you're making a mess".... bolting stuff on without doing the attendant and necessary (if perhaps dull) clean up work.

i have a bad feeling that the new joints is going to create more of this kind of redundancy to provide bones at object level.... i hope i'm wrong.

jin

Cageman
02-23-2008, 11:21 PM
i have a bad feeling that the new joints is going to create more of this kind of redundancy to provide bones at object level.... i hope i'm wrong.

jin

Hmm... maybe. But looking at what the devteam is doing, they are certanly breaking away from old legacy. If rumours are true, the light API was something the old team said was impossible to do. I'm quite positive that Modeler will get its fair share of updates and consolidation.

meshpig
02-24-2008, 12:01 AM
You can delete edges in modo, but it's a vastly more exposed system. Like working with unwelded points all the time.

m

jin choung
02-24-2008, 12:28 AM
Hmm... maybe. But looking at what the devteam is doing, they are certanly breaking away from old legacy.

i don't see that as much.

the new render stuff is in keeping with newtek's almost exclusive emphasis on the renderer for the last few updates.

as for the rest, and especially in modeler, i'm seeing new being piled on top of old and nothing getting cleaned up. it seems too much to hope for any different.

but our own hair fur is definitely good, new ik with exposed pole vectors is good... and as i said, i hope i'm wrong about the joints. and hopefully, these new features will give us a better sense of what the direction for the non-renderer future will be.

jin

ftown
02-24-2008, 11:27 AM
that would be great to see modeler get some more attention, it's always been my favorite app to model in. Sculpy and Play-Dough coming in second.

jin choung
02-24-2008, 03:03 PM
you should tr zbrush then... or mudbox or silo2 or blender... the new scuplting modeling workflow is really revolutionizing what's possible.

jin

ftown
02-24-2008, 05:03 PM
that sounds interesting, whats sculpting workflow all about? sort of like sub-patch on steroids? I guess the best thing would be to demo the app.
thanks for the info

jin choung
02-24-2008, 06:32 PM
http://www.pixologic.com/blogs/ryan/2008/01/28/rapid-head-sketch/

this type of thing did not used to be useful in movies or games because it creates a mesh that is too dense to be of any practical use... but combined with the ability to create a difference map (baking hi frequency detail into either a normal map [usually games] or displacement map [usually movies] comparing the discrepancy between final sculpt and low res mesh's limit surface), you can get spectacular results that are very difficult to achieve otherwise. came into widespread use around the time of doom3 and first lord of the rings movie.

davey jones and his henchman are a result of zb work, zb and proto-mudbox was used in king kong....

anyhoo, if you do character work, this MUST be in your arsenal.

jin

JeffrySG
02-25-2008, 02:37 PM
Is it my faulty memory, but didn't some plugin, somewhere, have a 'dissolve edges' function which did what you'd expect a 'delete edges' to do?
That's just what I said above.... doh! lol

Cageman
02-26-2008, 12:18 AM
i don't see that as much.

the new render stuff is in keeping with newtek's almost exclusive emphasis on the renderer for the last few updates.

as for the rest, and especially in modeler, i'm seeing new being piled on top of old and nothing getting cleaned up. it seems too much to hope for any different.

jin

Funny you managed to completely overlook my comment about the Light API and how much that particular feature breaks old legacy (if rumours about the old team is true). :)

I have seen Jay stating that Modeler will get the reahul it deserves, however, the fact that thier work on integrating Modeler into Layout had to go back to the design table, I believe that the apparent lack of modeler consolidation is based on them redesigning the whole thing so that they can have modelertools working in both Layout and Modeler in a cosolidated and cleaned up fasion. So, when cleaning things up in modeler, that cleanup will happen with the modelertools in Layout as well.

jin choung
02-26-2008, 12:23 AM
Funny you managed to completely overlook my comment about the Light API and how much that particular feature breaks old legacy (if rumours about the old team is true). :)


yeah... i tend to ignore things that begin with the caveat "if rumors are true".

anyhoo, one man's speculation is as good as another so you're welcome to your personal take on what the future may bring.

anyone else wanna play?

jin

ftown
02-26-2008, 08:14 AM
I hope in the future LW is integrated with AE/PS CS3, I wish I could just hit "export to After Effects or PS" and any layers I wanted, cameras, and lights would just show up and I could keep on working. I hope Collada support brings this on, quickly. The motion design studios I've been in would buy LW as a plug-in if it just worked, they already do that with C4D and Maya.

paulhart
02-29-2008, 12:34 PM
(rant)Consolidate the tools!!! Make sense of the blizzard of scraps & pieces. (/rant)
Better edge tools should be a built in function. Not to rub salt in an old wound, ('cause I really like the Lightwave beast despite it warts and wrinkles, which need some love) but if I have a lot of edge work to do, modo is my tool now. I had a messy model that needed a lot of cleanup, so double-click on an edge to select it's entire connected length, then press the backspace key to delete the edge, creating fused polys. Very simple, intuitive, fun to use, works as expected.
Paul

Helder Evandro
04-04-2008, 02:56 PM
Delete point, edge and poly.
Easy! :)

Utilities / Additional / REMOVE