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hard8
02-18-2008, 06:17 PM
the UB version of 9.3.1 is yet another disaster.
it's about as stable as drunk on stilts.

I finally invest in a decent machine
to get the most out of the app and now we're back to the good old days of LW crashing for no reason.

Could this be a leopard issue? I already disabled the hub because the apps would crash on launch, but I can get about 10 minutes worth of work before it just quits for no good reason.

eblu
02-18-2008, 09:48 PM
?
I have LW issues, but I don't have THOSE LW issues...
you seem to have a new system, brand new LW install?
default everything? (configs, menu layout, etc...)? except of course, drop kicking the hub?

running any weird add ons (LW plugins, OS add ons)?

are you using any quicktime movies in your animations?
does it quit while rendering mostly?
during saves?

crash on launch makes me think its a resource thing. LW isn't getting the resources it Thinks its getting... memory, texture memory on the card, access to hardware... stuff like that. you said you had the UB, but LW running under Rosetta might crash on start more readily.
dumping the hub made it more stable? perhaps the hub had a bad config file? maybe your install went awry. (i'm guessing you've already done a re-install) Chilton says that most of the problems associated to bad configs aren't config files, but you know us End users... we're superstitious. especially when theres no logical explanation for a crash. I say delete your configs!
and if that don't do it, delete your configs, and the app and re-install (don't forget to rename the hub!)


heh... even if someone CAN pinpoint and fix your issue... its still gonna crash. I've recently bumped into the ancient, wise and venerable Graph editor/OpenGL crash bug. Some things get better with age... some things piss you off through the years.

hard8
02-19-2008, 12:03 AM
I did a delete on the configs. Trashed the prefs and all the usual fixes.
This is a brand new system. It's days old. I've got a pretty hefty video card.

It's basically acting like 8.5 did. just real unstable. It's fast as all hell, but I'll be trucking along in modeler, go to do something as simple as click on bandsaw pro and BAM!... Modeler unexpectedly crashes. It's not just with bandsaw, it can happen when I accept a bevel, or tab out of a smooth shift. It's just random.

This is nothing new to me, but after the rock solid stability of the 9,3,1 PPC version, I have gotten spoiled by the only stable version of Lightwave I've used since 5.5. I forgot what it was like to follow everything up with a command>save.

argh.

Phil
02-19-2008, 12:14 AM
UB LW is, well, a little rough around the edges. It's pretty much the first release of LW on this platform (as distinct to the old PowerPC version), so some headaches are expected.

That said, copying and pasting the crash output from OS X (via the Report button) and sending it in an email, with a complete description of what you did (and content if relevant), to [email protected] would be great! The developers then stand a chance of fixing it for the next update.

It may also be worth diddling with the OpenGL display settings under the display options panel (Modeler and Layout). I've had reasonable success with multitexture, VBO. GLSL is not really usable (and will actually cause major pain for PowerPC LW on an intel Mac).

___mats___
02-19-2008, 12:44 AM
yes, its a mess.

I opted to run LW on the PCs ONLY.. its a shame but I get a TON of crashes on the macs, and I did try everything

JeffrySG
02-19-2008, 12:45 PM
I wonder how much of that is Leopard? I hardly ever crash in LW. Occasionally if I'm doing a weird edge dissolve, but that's about it. I do have the hub off as well.

eblu
02-19-2008, 01:21 PM
i found 10.5 as stable as 10.4... as far as That goes.
I will say that I stopped using bandsaw pro completely. That thing is a pile of crap, hasn't worked properly since version 9 (or earlier). Makes you want to cry too, modeler FINALLY gets a loop selection tool thats halfway decent and the Bandsaw tool becomes a Hand grenade.

Smooth shift is Slightly less crash prone, But I've gotten in the habit of not using That as well.

its a shame that my experience with Lightwave is colored by automatic, almost pre-conscious choices to avoid bugs that are generations old. the list of stuff on the box doesn't line up with the reality.

Giacomo99
02-19-2008, 01:29 PM
Ugh, all these horror stories about Lightwave on the new Mac Pro are starting to freak me out a bit.

What's the worst case scenario here? Assuming LW 9.3.1 is functionally unusable on a Leopard-equipped Mac Pro, how hard would it be to get LW working under Windows on such a machine? Would there be a significant performance hit? I've never used Windows---how hard is it to install Windows on a Mac? Please advise.

Glendalough
02-19-2008, 01:47 PM
Leopard may be a step backward for the Mac, I mean really, Tiger was probably the best Mac OS ever by a long shot, so why change it?

Giacomo99
02-19-2008, 01:52 PM
Leopard may be a step backward for the Mac, I mean really, Tiger was probably the best Mac OS ever by a long shot, so why change it?

Well, it's here now and we're going to have to deal with it. Like I said above, I'd like to see some feedback on how to run 9.3.1 with maximum stability on the a new Mac Pro.

Glendalough
02-19-2008, 01:58 PM
Haven't used it that much and only got a MacPro a month ago, but haven't had any real trouble. Only the big handles and text overrun. Some pause after a f9 render but no hold up on image sequences.

Maybe one should use the PPC version for modeling, and just the UB for Layout and rendering.

Giacomo99
02-19-2008, 02:06 PM
Maybe one should use the PPC version for modeling, and just the UB for Layout and rendering.

Is it possible to run the PPC version on a Mac Pro? If so, how much slower is it?

Glendalough
02-19-2008, 02:15 PM
Is it possible to run the PPC version on a Mac Pro? If so, how much slower is it?

The PPC version runs fine, I find it at least 4 times faster than my old single processor G5, more like 5 time faster, so unless you are changing from a G5 quad, you should see some speed increase I would think (the UB is 3 to 4 times faster on the same MacPro -i.e. faster than the PPC version on same machine).

JeffrySG
02-19-2008, 02:16 PM
^yes, you can. I think the biggest speed hit would be during rendering. And then it would probably be as fast as a fast G5.

lol - beat me to it glendalough

eblu
02-19-2008, 02:40 PM
Leopard may be a step backward for the Mac, I mean really, Tiger was probably the best Mac OS ever by a long shot, so why change it?


oh, I don't agree with this statement at all. Leopard is a very powerful upgrade for os x, it just doesn't have a lot of end-user surprises. Outside of Lightwave's problems on the mac (almost all of which predate leopard) the mac itself has only moved forward. ever use any of the other 3d apps? I'm not saying They are perfect, but you notice Major differences, which indicate that a 3d app on the mac CAN be more stable and a lot faster.

Phil
02-19-2008, 02:42 PM
Ugh, all these horror stories about Lightwave on the new Mac Pro are starting to freak me out a bit.

What's the worst case scenario here? Assuming LW 9.3.1 is functionally unusable on a Leopard-equipped Mac Pro, how hard would it be to get LW working under Windows on such a machine? Would there be a significant performance hit? I've never used Windows---how hard is it to install Windows on a Mac? Please advise.

Windows install on an Intel Mac? Easy. Fire up BootCamp, partition the disk to a decent size (on-the-fly, but backups are advised). Shove your XP SP2 or Vista disk in when prompted, and waste 45 minutes waiting for it to install.

Once it's finally installed, and you are logged in to Windows for the first time, shove your Leopard disk in and the drivers will be installed for all your hardware.

You just have to remember to hold down 'Alt' when your Mac reboots in order to get Windows to load.

hard8
02-19-2008, 06:03 PM
the PPC version is extremely sluggish in modeler. I had a model with about 90k p-gons in it and I was getting a beach ball after every operation for at least 3-5 seconds.

I think I'm just going to use my G5 for everything except rendering. It's still pretty snappy even with 1 million poly models.

Seriously though, the developers have access to all types of machine configs and surely they must be seeing the same crash issues. The fact that we still don't have a 64bit version for Mac just tells me that they spend most of their time tweaking the PC versions because of the install base.

I really hope they spend time fixing what is broken rather than trying to cram another 100+ new features into an unstable code. If they want to improve the app, then I say make it work for starters.

Giacomo99
02-19-2008, 09:04 PM
So, hard8, how exactly will you deal with the problem? Are you just going to live with the instability until the next upgrade, or are you really going to be running Modeler on your G5?

I am actually interested in the practicalities of using LW full-time on a Leopard-based Mac Pro. Please advise.

Phil
02-20-2008, 02:10 AM
the PPC version is extremely sluggish in modeler. I had a model with about 90k p-gons in it and I was getting a beach ball after every operation for at least 3-5 seconds.

It will be. Rosetta is a bandaid solution for the Intel Mac. It wasn't designed to deal with intensive apps like LW or PowerPC Maya. If you view it in that sense, the performance gap makes sense. For what Rosetta is doing, it does it very well.


I think I'm just going to use my G5 for everything except rendering. It's still pretty snappy even with 1 million poly models.

Fair enough, but issues will get fixed in UB LW only if the users report the problems to [email protected]


Seriously though, the developers have access to all types of machine configs and surely they must be seeing the same crash issues. The fact that we still don't have a 64bit version for Mac just tells me that they spend most of their time tweaking the PC versions because of the install base.

If you report your content/recipe for crashes to [email protected], you will be helping them out. NewTek's developer resources are far from the size of AutoDesk.

As for 64-bit, there isn't a 64-bit version of Maya or anything else for Mac yet AFAIK. Indeed, Apple is somewhat to blame here for pulling the rug out from under developers. As late as summer 2007, Apple were still providing 64-bit support in Carbon. Then they took it away from developers and told them to rewrite everything in Cocoa. That's a ridiculous position to take and large apps will take time to migrate. Until Leopard, no-one could deliver a 64-bit GUI application on OS X - 64-bit support was limited to terminal apps.

Now one could argue that UB LW should have started in Cocoa from the get-go.... In any case, this is water under the bridge.

hard8
02-27-2008, 10:56 AM
It will be. Rosetta is a bandaid solution for the Intel Mac. It wasn't designed to deal with intensive apps like LW or PowerPC Maya. If you view it in that sense, the performance gap makes sense. For what Rosetta is doing, it does it very well.



Fair enough, but issues will get fixed in UB LW only if the users report the problems to [email protected]



If you report your content/recipe for crashes to [email protected], you will be helping them out. NewTek's developer resources are far from the size of AutoDesk.

As for 64-bit, there isn't a 64-bit version of Maya or anything else for Mac yet AFAIK. Indeed, Apple is somewhat to blame here for pulling the rug out from under developers. As late as summer 2007, Apple were still providing 64-bit support in Carbon. Then they took it away from developers and told them to rewrite everything in Cocoa. That's a ridiculous position to take and large apps will take time to migrate. Until Leopard, no-one could deliver a 64-bit GUI application on OS X - 64-bit support was limited to terminal apps.

Now one could argue that UB LW should have started in Cocoa from the get-go.... In any case, this is water under the bridge.


I sent off a slew of bug reports to NT last week. Most of the issues I am having are random. I was starting to think it was a ram issue, but I just replaced all my ram with new chips from Crucial and I'm still having the same weirdness.

Here's a little of what I have been dealing with:

MODELER:

Random crashes on random tools. Magnet, Bevel, Rail Extrude and a few others. They work 70% of the time, but I don't do anything now without saving. So Im saving before and after every operation.

Bandsaw pro is pretty much a bomb so I don't use it anymore.
Clicking the tool crashes the app. Poof. Gone.

Multiple Boolean Operations crash the app. I was making a gear for my motorcycle. I did the teeth and they cut out fine. Went to cut 6 holes in the gear face and the app crashed. I tried this in about 3 or 4 different ways to see if it was the order I did the cuts. Crashed every time, which is about the only thing that was consistent. I finally had to do the operation on my G5 and send the model back across the network and import it in.

I've had 3 crashes on saving the object. Luckily I am saving hundreds of times so I maybe lost 10 minutes of work.

LAYOUT

Wow. This is where it's really bad.

First off, when I go to do a F-9 I get a beachball for about 20-30 seconds.
Then it renders. When I am done, I esc. out of the preview window and I get a beachball for about 20-30 seconds before I can do anything else. Annoying, but I'm living with it.

Can't save surface presets. Double clicking on the sample does nothing.
Command Clicking to "save Preset" does nothing. The only thing I can do is Save Surface. Really blows when you have a model with hundreds of surfaces and you have to re-save the surface every time you make a change.

I just lost a ton of time texturing. I do a save all objects constantly after I make a surface I'm happy with. I probably did that 12 times yesterday.
I saved the scene, saved all objects and quit Layout to give the computer a restart. When I opened the scene all my texture work for the last 6 hrs was gone.

Now if I had the ability to save a surface preset I could have gotten back to where I was with a little effort. I just figured because it wasn't working that save all objects would be the back up for that. That's not the case.
(This preset thing might be a set up problem. Someone is working on that in another thread)

So.. I really can't trust the UB version to a production timeline at this point. If I sent every bug report to NT I would be out of a job right now because I would be spending all my time doing that instead of doing 3D work.

So.. to answer Giacomo99's question, yes.. I am switching the production back over to the G5 for everything except rendering. I am also going to fire bomb the MacPro and re-install Tiger. I think Leopard is a mess in it's own right and having a buggy OS running under a buggy app is not doing the MacPro any favors right now.

Steamthrower
02-27-2008, 12:27 PM
I've taken your post and split it up a bit and answered...perhaps this will show a bit of how others have problems with it.

I'm on a MacBook Pro C2D with Tiger.


Random crashes on random tools. Magnet, Bevel, Rail Extrude and a few others. They work 70% of the time, but I don't do anything now without saving.
That's weird because Magnet and Bevel all work perfectly for me. I don't think Rail Extrude has ever given me any problems. The one stability problem I do have is with Rounder. This isn't peculiar to the Mac port though.

Bandsaw pro is pretty much a bomb so I don't use it anymore.
Clicking the tool crashes the app. Poof. Gone.
Again, weird. It doesn't work at all for me (so I use the old Bandsaw). But it doesn't crash either. Just doesn't do anything.

Multiple Boolean Operations crash the app. I was making a gear for my motorcycle. I did the teeth and they cut out fine. Went to cut 6 holes in the gear face and the app crashed.
That has never happened to me. Only time I have problems with booleans is when I do something "illegal", then instead of a simple error the whole thing crashes.

I've had 3 crashes on saving the object. Luckily I am saving hundreds of times so I maybe lost 10 minutes of work.
This has never happened to me, even with very large models (the models I work with normally range from 2,000 to 50,000 polygons, sometimes more, sometimes less).

First off, when I go to do a F-9 I get a beachball for about 20-30 seconds. Then it renders. When I am done, I esc. out of the preview window and I get a beachball for about 20-30 seconds before I can do anything else.
F9 simply doesn't work for me. So I click the F9 button in the menu. Always works there, no pauses, no spinning colored spheres.

Can't save surface presets. Double clicking on the sample does nothing.
Works perfect for me.

I'm really wondering why people with Macs seem to have such varying issues. You'd think it would be that case with Windows, where every single person has different hardware. But with Macs...we all have the same or pretty much the same.

Puguglybonehead
02-27-2008, 12:46 PM
I would suspect that Leopard might be the problem. Apple's latest updates definitely haven't been up to standard. Safari, of all things, is crashing regularly on me. It's baffling. I haven't seen a browser that unstable for 10 years. There's also been quite a few bugs in QuickTime lately. Not having any serious issues with the UB of CFM versions of LW 9.3.1 myself, but then I'm still on a G4. So, my suspicions are still with the OS.

Steamthrower
02-27-2008, 12:58 PM
I'm on Tiger though...and so is hard8. I'm not having any troubles with QT (I don't use Safari however).

kopperdrake
02-27-2008, 01:04 PM
Ugh, all these horror stories about Lightwave on the new Mac Pro are starting to freak me out a bit.

What's the worst case scenario here? Assuming LW 9.3.1 is functionally unusable on a Leopard-equipped Mac Pro, how hard would it be to get LW working under Windows on such a machine? Would there be a significant performance hit? I've never used Windows---how hard is it to install Windows on a Mac? Please advise.

I run both UB 9.3 and Windows 9.3 under bootcamp on my Mac Pro. Windows is easy to install - just follow the instructions under bootcamp and it should get you most, if not all, of the way. The only tweakng I had to do was install the graphics drivers seperately after I installed Windows, but it all runs fine now - also running FPrime, Vue Xstreama nd HD Instance under x32. When I get a spare weekend I've got XP Pro 64 sat in its box waiting to be installed :)