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dmack
02-15-2008, 12:18 PM
Hi all,

Anyone know if dynamite from cantarcan is still being developed? Seems like the hard work has been done and yet no progress seems to have been made for months and months?!?!? Would be a real shame to see something this cool dissappear!

Anyone know anything?

cagey5
02-15-2008, 12:25 PM
Threads keep cropping up saying he is still actively developing it and a new update will follow shortly but nothing ever happens. Going by the only real evidence I have [the website and inactivity thereon] I have to conclude that this is a dead parrot.

Matt
02-15-2008, 12:25 PM
Apparently it is, but that's people on the forum saying this, the developer hasn't said anything official.

Steamthrower
02-15-2008, 12:28 PM
If it's a dead parrot, then we need to get together a fund and send it to him to get him to make it open source.

Phil
02-15-2008, 12:52 PM
Did somebody mention my name? :)

There is/was a Dynamite 1.2 release in the works. I have early builds here for Win32 and UB LW, but since those initial builds were sent my way, Can has become unresponsive. Despite much prodding, I have yet to get a working 1.2 build (i.e. where new features have been activated and work). The 1.2 release appears to have some nice features, but the new stuff is disabled in my build (apparently because of some issues in stability).

I've spent months trying to cajole Can into shipping something, and in November he was suggesting that the 1.2 release was imminent. It seems that he's either hit another wall, given up or is following his usual plan of trying to perfect everything in a single update.

I'll admit to being rather frustrated at Can's lack of communication.

Steamthrower
02-15-2008, 01:00 PM
Here's the link for some of you, by the way:

http://www.cantarcan.com/v11/html/main.html

dmack
02-15-2008, 01:15 PM
Just seems weird? From a lay persons perspective, the really tough part seems to have been coded - surely it's now the fun building additional features and selling it? If it was properly developed (with a clear future) and promoted, I'd have thought it would do very well?!?!?

Matt
02-15-2008, 01:38 PM
Or worse, sales were not bad, but he's given up on his paying customers (not that I'm one of them, I don't have much use other than having fun with explosions in HV!)

alvin_cgi
02-15-2008, 02:23 PM
Is time for NT to step in and buy off Dymanite form Cantarcan!!:thumbsup:

Dream, dream, dream...:D

OOZZEE
02-15-2008, 02:25 PM
don't want to sound morbid but maybe he's dead !!

i mean really, any joe in the world can take 2 minutes of their life to at least post something somewhere to give some kind of sign of life ?

If you are going to go through so much trouble to develope something and release it, then completely shut yourself from everyone after the release.... what the heck....

annoying these people who think they can sell something and then shun their customers... got it from dynamite and pawel olas.

Phil
02-15-2008, 02:26 PM
He's alive.

OOZZEE
02-15-2008, 02:29 PM
so is some kind of advisery to much trouble for him ?

Phil
02-15-2008, 02:29 PM
Just seems weird? From a lay persons perspective, the really tough part seems to have been coded - surely it's now the fun building additional features and selling it? If it was properly developed (with a clear future) and promoted, I'd have thought it would do very well?!?!?

From my dealings with him since just after the product was released, the big drain on him came with fighting thread issues. After some time, he managed to resolve most of these with help from NewTek. These cause render time corruption. Dynamite 1.2 is a lot better, but that's of little comfort except for those who manage(d) to get Can to send them a copy.

Dynamite 1.2 also renders properly with fog in the scene - something that also needed some assistance to get working. When Can ships an update, it does tend to address the main issues. Whilst I'm frustrated, the general quality of his work is pretty decent.

If people can email him politely, maybe the show of interest will pay dividends. There are contact addresses on the web site : www.cantarcan.com.

Be nice.

alvin_cgi
02-15-2008, 02:31 PM
prove it!:D


He's alive.

OOZZEE
02-15-2008, 02:35 PM
send us an ear or a finger or something !!! kidding.

Steamthrower
02-15-2008, 02:43 PM
I had emailed very politely a couple hours ago, just inquiring what the status was, etc. I'll wait on a response.

Stooch
02-15-2008, 03:15 PM
I sent him an email months ago when having issues in production. Sad to say but this plugin is pulled from the pipeline and wont be used any further.

oh well.

My recommendation is to stay away from it until he learns a thing or two about dealing with customers.

newtek, here is your chance to take voxels to next level.

im sure with his abysmal rep he isnt in a position to ask too much for it.

Steamthrower
02-15-2008, 03:19 PM
Like I said earlier, depending on just how much profit he makes from it nowadays, he might be willing to open source it for a price.

Abysmal. I love that word.

Phil
02-16-2008, 01:48 AM
WaveFilter for LW was acquired and open sourced. Not that anyone has done anything with it since, oh, 2000 or so. LW's UI couldn't reproduce the Win32 UI that WaveFilter came with. Nobody seems to have ported over WaveFilter volume either, which is a little sad. So open source doesn't imply rebirth of a product.

For a more popular system, Blender comes to mind as well :)

hrgiger
02-16-2008, 03:44 AM
Perhaps Newtek did buy it and he's not allowed to say anything from an NDA or something, hence, the non-response. But I'm sure I'm 100% wrong on that one.

Bog
02-16-2008, 09:26 AM
One gentle, polite nudge emailed.

It's a gorgeous thing, and it would be so nice to, eg, have a 64 bit version. It's already paid for itself with commercial work, so I'm not upset or owt, it'd just be lovely to see a sign of life.

Lightwolf
02-16-2008, 09:31 AM
Nobody seems to have ported over WaveFilter volume either, which is a little sad. So open source doesn't imply rebirth of a product.

Looking at the code mess that WaveFilter was I'm not surprised.

Cheers,
Mike

Mike_RB
02-16-2008, 09:33 AM
We have a copy and even offered to pay to develop some specific features we needed for a film we were working on. No response. And there were always issues of grid like artifacts that were hard to eliminate at a low cell size. I think the time of this plugin has come and gone. Now we wait to see who next develops a CFD plug for lw....

Bog
02-16-2008, 09:36 AM
We have a copy and even offered to pay to develop some specific features we needed for a film we were working on. No response. And there were always issues of grid like artifacts that were hard to eliminate at a low cell size. I think the time of this plugin has come and gone. Now we wait to see who next develops a CFD plug for lw....

Well, ya say that (and if I was in a pessimistic mood, I'd probably agree), but I'd far rather see Dynamite updated. It is disheartening when a developer "goes dark", and Worley Labs going mute for a year (!) darn near drove me crazy. Here's hoping, eh?

Titus
02-16-2008, 10:45 AM
But who would pay anyone to open source software?

The Blender community, 100,000 euros.

Phil
02-16-2008, 11:42 AM
Bersirc, an IRC client, was also purchased from its developer and open sourced.

Steamthrower
02-16-2008, 03:31 PM
The Blender community, 100,000 euros.

Man, beat me to it. That's the prime example of that stuff.

Plus I've seen the same thing with niche software. A developer will "go broke" and the user base, which would be stranded without the software, will usually pay a small sum for it to be open sourced. It's a win/win situation for both that way; the developer gets a chunk of cash that he didn't expect, and the user base still has their software.

Bog
02-16-2008, 04:48 PM
I'd help pay to make it open source.

I'd pay for a new version.

Cripes, I'd buy the bugger a pint if he just let me know his intentions!

starbase1
02-18-2008, 03:36 AM
As mentioned in a spearate thread, I am also in the market - I was looking at varous options for these effects, but all of them seem to have ground to a halt or gone AWOL.

(If I can go off topic, anyone heard anything from Ficatech / Filip? I need a new licence if I am to switch to a USB dongle, as I make very heavy use of Hyperstars).

Nick

JBT27
02-18-2008, 05:02 AM
As mentioned in a spearate thread, I am also in the market - I was looking at varous options for these effects, but all of them seem to have ground to a halt or gone AWOL.

(If I can go off topic, anyone heard anything from Ficatech / Filip? I need a new licence if I am to switch to a USB dongle, as I make very heavy use of Hyperstars).

Nick

We bought Hyperstars last year and Filip was responding to emails within minutes - OK, it was last year, but Hyperstars was old(ish) even then.

I reported a bug, which pretty much trashed shots we were doing, and he said he knew about it but it was Newtek's fault, and he couldn't fix it.....a bit harsh, but there you go. Still a great plugin for alot of starfields though.....

Julian.

starbase1
02-18-2008, 05:23 AM
We bought Hyperstars last year and Filip was responding to emails within minutes - OK, it was last year, but Hyperstars was old(ish) even then.

I reported a bug, which pretty much trashed shots we were doing, and he said he knew about it but it was Newtek's fault, and he couldn't fix it.....a bit harsh, but there you go. Still a great plugin for alot of starfields though.....

Julian.

Yes, I have also had good experiences in the past, it would be a shame if this one died. Particularly given the painful price for the only competitor I know of, StarPro. (Painfull for an amatuer anyway...)

Matt
02-18-2008, 07:35 AM
i mean really, any joe in the world can take 2 minutes of their life to at least post something somewhere to give some kind of sign of life ?

If you are going to go through so much trouble to develope something and release it, then completely shut yourself from everyone after the release.... what the heck....

annoying these people who think they can sell something and then shun their customers... got it from dynamite and pawel olas.

Totally agree.

Puguglybonehead
02-18-2008, 10:37 AM
(If I can go off topic, anyone heard anything from Ficatech / Filip? I need a new licence if I am to switch to a USB dongle, as I make very heavy use of Hyperstars).

Nick

I emailed Ficatech in the summer and didn't get a response. Tried again in December. Nothing. Tried 2 days ago, and the message bounced, so now he doesn't even have a working email contact. Just wanted to find out if Hyperstars was going to be ported to UB. I also think the price of StarPro is a bit ridiculous, but there is no alternative for Mac UB.

Steamthrower
02-18-2008, 10:44 AM
Hyperstars, Dynamite...they're all dying off. Pretty pitiful if you ask me. It would be wise to make a concerted effort to make contact with the developers and actually see if we can get something going.

RedBull
02-18-2008, 03:18 PM
Plugins and Third Party Tools for Lightwave are in a state of disarray...
No Plugins or Exporters for third party render engines, many useful plugins that have been abandon.... FBX and Collada communication with others.

Previous developers coming back to LW just to swindle money on a new version, before disappearing again. (VertiBevel, FF4?)

LW's SDK has suffered from no innovation in such a long time, nobody wants to be a part of LW, Combined with the smaller and smaller userbase or mainly hobbyists, and it's easy to see why Max, Maya and XSI are much healthier userbases to develop for. When you ignore something so important for such a long time, the result is a pretty obvious one.

It's been Worley and Dpont that have kept me in LW since LW8. And i can't see that happening for a lot longer.....

Steamthrower
02-18-2008, 03:38 PM
Yeah, unless Worley gets off their rear end where they seem to be sitting on a couch watching Seinfeld reruns, and get a MAC UB VERSION OF FPRIME AND SASQUATCH out there, they ain't getting my business.

RedBull
02-18-2008, 03:50 PM
Yeah, unless Worley gets off their rear end where they seem to be sitting on a couch watching Seinfeld reruns, and get a MAC UB VERSION OF FPRIME AND SASQUATCH out there, they ain't getting my business.

Unfortunately I've been waiting for a real Hair solution (i.e Sas2 with Fprime support) but realize that FPrime will likely never take me to the next level.
So Worley already likely have the last of my business...

I'm currently investigating 3DSMax as my next acquisition, Despite me choosing LW over 3DS many moons ago, It seems that the 3rd party plugin scene is alive and kicking on Max and XSI these days.....Plugins like FumeFX are on my wishlist, however a little bit too much money, when i have to buy a new Max license as well...3Delight etc, being ported to XSI makes it a tough decision on where to go.

Steamthrower
02-18-2008, 04:01 PM
Man, if I was on a PC I'd take XSI anytime. Price-wise, feature-wise, everything-wise, and especially customer support-wise. I hate Autodesk products for a reason.

Lightwolf
02-18-2008, 04:22 PM
No Plugins or Exporters for third party render engines...

You mean except for KRay, Indigo and Maxwell?
I'm quite sure if there was a real market there'd be exporters to the costlier renderers as well...

Cheers,
Mike

KeystoneMike
02-18-2008, 04:44 PM
I hate to say it, but the reason most 3rd party developers quit supporting their products and leave the arena is because of YOU guys.
Very few developers can make a living programming tools for LW because most users don't want to pay for tools. The ones who are still around either have a dedicated following like Worley, or they have day jobs which allow them to either release tools for free, or they don't care if people buy them or not.
Newtek doesn't make things any easier on the 3rd party developer either. There are many shortcomings in the SDK that have to overcome occasionally, and Newtek can't always make immediate fixes when a serious flaw is discovered.
On the flip-side I know how frustrating it is to not get any support for a tool you HAVE paid for. I'm right with everyone here about Dynamite. I paid my money, and I'm seriously disappointed about Can's lack of communication and updates. But I don't think he or any other developer is out to intentionally "bilk" us out of money. They put a lot of effort into those tools. More than you may know.

Steamthrower
02-18-2008, 06:39 PM
the reason most 3rd party developers quit supporting their products and leave the arena is because of YOU guys.

Why?

RedBull
02-18-2008, 06:58 PM
You mean except for KRay, Indigo and Maxwell?

There is no working exporter for Yafray, for Luxrender, for Kaydetahra (sp?) Indigo, 3Delight, PRMan, Mental Ray, Vray, Brazil, Final Render.....I could add another half a dozen.... Hell even FPrime is so limited that it doesn't really count.

But i was referring to just the free ones like Luxrender, Indigo, Gelato, Kaydetharda, and a handful more, that show LW script/plugin community died many years back. (Max, XSI, Blender, Maya all have community driven scripts, where LW does not.
I used to find Jap plugins and scripts on Flay EVERY day for many years over LW5, LW6 and even LW7, it's not there anymore.


I'm quite sure if there was a real market there'd be exporters to the costlier renderer's as well...

That's the problem there is no interest or market for it, because LW plugins are basically dead, XSI is where developers want to be as it's an emerging market and Max and Maya too.....

RedBull
02-18-2008, 07:11 PM
Man, if I was on a PC I'd take XSI anytime. Price-wise, feature-wise, everything-wise, and especially customer support-wise. I hate Autodesk products for a reason.

I already have XSI license (since XSI2.0) but it really gets used a lot less than I'd like it too... But I really like the FX of Max and FumeFX and Pflow etc and 3rd party plugins are still strong, even after making people move to VC9 and 64bit... (I recently downloaded the demo, and liked Max more than i expected) MR in Max is so much faster than Maya and on par with XSI.

XSI is emerging and i see it as been the exciting software, 3Delight being so well integrated is a great thing, even in Houdini setting up 3Delight is a complete chore. Where as XSI they really did a good job of allowing the Node Editor access and create RIB compatible shaders, Moondust makes it also look good.

XSI still has a crappy a volumetric system as LW, voxels etc are just as crap! I'm looking into Houdini's 5x5 Voxel Renderer but I'm not convinced by it yet. I would rather go to Houdini, because i like 3Delight and Houdini 9.1 is my favourite 3D application the new UI and power it brings is just amazing. Houdini is just too complicated for the simple things however. (Maya move over Houdini blows you away!)

Steamthrower
02-18-2008, 07:23 PM
Not to mention that Houdini's price is enough to buy you a whole new render farm!

Titus
02-18-2008, 08:40 PM
Why?

Lack of a real interest, feedback, etc. There are like 3 or 4 abandoned LW to RM exporters. (I also remember one guy who spent a lot of time programming a Max to RM plugin but left after not being profitable) In my case I don't use RenderMan anymore but the exporter has the basic features I need for my projects, if I need another feature and have the time I can work on it, BTW I gave the code to a couple of guys but never heard again about them.

RedBull
02-18-2008, 10:50 PM
Not to mention that Houdini's price is enough to buy you a whole new render farm!

Well you can use Houdini Apprentice and Houdini HD, if you want to export to LW For example Houdini's Fluid Solver, can export .Obj sequences out to LW for rendering. (As it can it's Rigid and Softbody dynamics.)

Houdini Escape is only $1995 which for what it is, is pretty much great value for money, and no more expensive than the competition considering it's feature set. (compares to XSI and Maya complete)

If you are in the market for Maya Unlimited (and I'm not) than Houdini Master is for me a much better choice and it's works out about the same price (cheaper actually) as Maya Unlimited. Only the power in Houdini is substantially better. (3Delight offers 2 free licenses for Houdini) If you add up all the extra plugins like Sasquatch, FF4, FPrime, G2, LiquidPack, Impact3, even LW's price is not good!

LW cost me a bundle more when i bought in at LW5.0

Phil
02-19-2008, 01:01 AM
Previous developers coming back to LW just to swindle money on a new version, before disappearing again. (VertiBevel, FF4?)

I cannot speak for VertiBevel, but you are grossly unfair about FF4. The developer is under NDA for improvements with regard to FF4 - he'll tell you as much if you email him. Jon has never once failed to respond to email and support requests in a timely manner, and the current release of FF4 is in every respect superior to the early release.

I have absolutely no complaints about FF4, or Jon. I'd love to see a UB version, but since there are apparently big things afoot in the FF4 world, I'm content to wait and see what happens.

If you want to talk about developers bilking their customers, Prem Subrahmanyam remains my all time 'favourite'. He took money for SE/DSFX 2 years ago and then ran off with an excuse that refunds were not possible because he had 12 kids to feed, that life was hard....and so on. If I ever meet him, I'll be quite happy to kick him up the arse.

RedBull
02-19-2008, 01:12 AM
If you want to talk about developers bilking their customers, Prem Subrahmanyam remains my all time 'favourite'. He took money for SE/DSFX 2 years ago and then ran off with an excuse that refunds were not possible because he had 12 kids to feed, that life was hard....and so on. If I ever meet him, I'll be quite happy to kick him up the arse.

Yeah that's quite lame, i mention VertiBevel and FF, simply because I don't know the developers as huge LW community enthusiasts, so much as people who did develop for LW 5.x and then disappeared until they needed a bit more cash, and updated their plugins again, and seem to disappear again.... (It seems especially the case on my 64bit Vertibevel)

(But the question mark with FF4, was for people such as yourself to offer your opinion) :) I've had a few Emails to Jon that have remained unanswered...
Ironically Can Tarcan often replies back, but we don't seem to go very far...

dballesg
02-19-2008, 01:19 AM
There is no working exporter for Yafray, for Luxrender, for Kaydetahra (sp?) Indigo, 3Delight, PRMan, Mental Ray, Vray, Brazil, Final Render.....I could add another half a dozen.... Hell even FPrime is so limited that it doesn't really count.

But i was referring to just the free ones like Luxrender, Indigo, Gelato, Kaydetharda, and a handful more, that show LW script/plugin community died many years back. (Max, XSI, Blender, Maya all have community driven scripts, where LW does not.
I used to find Jap plugins and scripts on Flay EVERY day for many years over LW5, LW6 and even LW7, it's not there anymore.

That's the problem there is no interest or market for it, because LW plugins are basically dead, XSI is where developers want to be as it's an emerging market and Max and Maya too.....

I tried to do a Indigo exporter, and needed to stop it after 1300 lines of working code. I found then the limitations that LScript has on certain important areas (and that is an heritage from the SDK).

Even Newtek hasn't improved LSCript on the last versions, or adds LScript support to control many of their own plugins and tools.

I own a Kray license and I am amazed how Grzegorz Tanski has made it work with Lightwave, but due he needs to use hacks to interface it with Lightwave it doesn't make it as stable as it could be.

And that it is simply a SDK designed to create certain things, and it doesn't allow to create 3D party render engines like the other 3D applications.

I think it is time that Newtek allows MUCH more on the SDK, and avoid that 3rd party developer need "blood and tears" to develop other rendering engines or exporters.

David

KeystoneMike
02-20-2008, 04:55 PM
Yeah that's quite lame, i mention VertiBevel and FF, simply because I don't know the developers as huge LW community enthusiasts, so much as people who did develop for LW 5.x and then disappeared until they needed a bit more cash, and updated their plugins again, and seem to disappear again.... (It seems especially the case on my 64bit Vertibevel)



I know the VertiBevel developer and he's a good guy. The main reason he hasn't put much time into VertiBevel lately is because the plugin market dried up for him. It's hard to compete with free plugins even though yours does a lot more. Many users would rather not pay if they don't have to. The guy has a family to support and selling Vertibevel and some other tools wasn't paying the bills so he had to take a real job which between that and his family doesn't leave a whole lot of time for LW plugin programming.
I know he still wants to support it. Just a matter of finding enough free time.

Bog
02-20-2008, 06:46 PM
Okay, woah. Are we actualy criticising Can Tarkan now? Who the hell knows what's going on in his life? Really, this is turning into some kinda drumhead court. Can we all just agree we'd like a halloo and move on?

RedBull
02-20-2008, 07:12 PM
I know he still wants to support it. Just a matter of finding enough free time.

Yeah I'm afraid that's just too lame to be an acceptable reason.... :|

DogBoy
02-20-2008, 07:16 PM
Yeah I'm afraid that's just too lame to be an acceptable reason.... :|

C'mon, we all need to eat.

Lightwolf
02-20-2008, 07:24 PM
C'mon, we all need to eat.
And sleep... which reminds me.....

Cheers,
Mike

RedBull
02-20-2008, 07:30 PM
C'mon, we all need to eat.

I think that's the point, we ALL need to eat, Jason isn't the only one with a Job and a family and when i use my food money on plugins and am promised a 64bit plugin, and then have emails just ignored, I'm not the type to care if he ever eats again... :)

Jason Hurdlow
02-20-2008, 08:05 PM
Yeah I'm afraid that's just too lame to be an acceptable reason.... :|

I'm sorry you feel that way.

For the record, I have been developing LW plugins since the Amiga days. I have never left, and don't just "appear" every now and then to bilk anyone of their hard earned money. Yes, the time I have for development varies. That is the reality of my life. About a year and a half ago my second child was born and my wife was laid off because the company she had worked for for 8 years folded. At the time I was doing full-time (and then some) development on VertiBevel as well as being full-time father to my daughter. With the new baby and loss of my wife's income it was no longer feasible to continue in such a manner. Despite what some people may think, developing Lightwave plugins is more a labor of love than a realistic income (Worley is probably the only one who makes a livable income from LW plugins). I found a good job locally and did what any responsible adult would do to provide for his family. The loss of development time for VB was a real heartbreaker for me. Just ask my wife. I practically went into depression the first few months. Having to work many extra hours to gain competency in my new field (it's programming still, but of an entirely different sort) gave me no time for VB. However I have always supported it and continue to work on it.

At the beginning of this year we reformed under a new business. We were part of a parent corporation, and are now under our own new LLC. This is a good thing. We also just purchased a couple new development machines and software just so we can better develop for and support all the new platforms that LW is being release for (namely UB and 64-bit). Basically all the money that comes in from plugin sales and other extra work I do (consulting and such) gets put back into the business to continue development and support for VertiBevel. A lot of my family and friends think I should just close up shop, but I haven't and don't plan to. If you think that's "too lame to be ... acceptable" then I'm sorry.

You mentioned something about 64-bit VB not working for you. Please contact me if you are having issues. As far as I know (and other users report), it is working just fine. I would be more than happy to work with you to resolve any problems.

In the meantime I will continue to work hard toward the 2.1 release (a free upgrade for 2.0 users BTW), so I can get on to working on VB 3.0 (a ground-up rewrite).

I wish you and all 'Wavers all the best, and will hang around here for a while to answer any questions you may have.

-Jason

Steamthrower
02-20-2008, 08:28 PM
Hi Jason, looking over your thread, it looks prety darn reasonable what you said.

By the way, New St. Andrews and Doug Wilson up in Moscow giving many folks a hard time? Sorry, had to inject.

Bog
02-21-2008, 04:31 AM
Another shout-out here in favour of FF4 - Jon's been unfailingly supportive for it, even before I actually got 'round to buying it. No problems there.

3D|Dave
02-27-2008, 04:44 PM
I'm sorry you feel that way.

For the record, I have been developing LW plugins since the Amiga days. I have never left, and don't just "appear" every now and then to bilk anyone of their hard earned money. Yes, the time I have for development varies. That is the reality of my life. About a year and a half ago my second child was born and my wife was laid off because the company she had worked for for 8 years folded. At the time I was doing full-time (and then some) development on VertiBevel as well as being full-time father to my daughter. With the new baby and loss of my wife's income it was no longer feasible to continue in such a manner. Despite what some people may think, developing Lightwave plugins is more a labor of love than a realistic income (Worley is probably the only one who makes a livable income from LW plugins). I found a good job locally and did what any responsible adult would do to provide for his family. The loss of development time for VB was a real heartbreaker for me. Just ask my wife. I practically went into depression the first few months. Having to work many extra hours to gain competency in my new field (it's programming still, but of an entirely different sort) gave me no time for VB. However I have always supported it and continue to work on it.

At the beginning of this year we reformed under a new business. We were part of a parent corporation, and are now under our own new LLC. This is a good thing. We also just purchased a couple new development machines and software just so we can better develop for and support all the new platforms that LW is being release for (namely UB and 64-bit). Basically all the money that comes in from plugin sales and other extra work I do (consulting and such) gets put back into the business to continue development and support for VertiBevel. A lot of my family and friends think I should just close up shop, but I haven't and don't plan to. If you think that's "too lame to be ... acceptable" then I'm sorry.

You mentioned something about 64-bit VB not working for you. Please contact me if you are having issues. As far as I know (and other users report), it is working just fine. I would be more than happy to work with you to resolve any problems.

In the meantime I will continue to work hard toward the 2.1 release (a free upgrade for 2.0 users BTW), so I can get on to working on VB 3.0 (a ground-up rewrite).

I wish you and all 'Wavers all the best, and will hang around here for a while to answer any questions you may have.

-Jason

Vertibevel is a great SOLID plugin that just works and has saved me TONS of time building models. It has more than payed for itself several times over and I continue to support it even though I have not been working in LW as much as I would like. It has always worked in every version of LW since I bought it back in the days of V6. I am glad to hear that a V3 is being planned.

Elmar Moelzer
02-28-2008, 09:17 AM
Granted, we have a different business model, but we do make a living of VoluMedic sales. The difference is that our customers are usually not LW- users (with some well known exceptions of course).
The problem with the "normal" LW users is that they either go for super- cheap or warez solutions.
Plugins for MAX, MAYA, etc sell for a lot more than LW plugins (in case of MAX at least there is a lot of Warez for that out there too, from what I know anyway). This somewhat helps making up for low sales numbers. Since these base packages sell for more than LW, their users are more comfortable with paying higher prices for a plugin.
The hobby LW- user does not care for payed plugins and the professionals usually are very careful with selecting the stuff they need.
I would also be quite careful with overestimating the 3rd party market for other products compared to LW. The installed (legal) userbase for all major 3d- apps on the market is IMHO pretty much equal. With MAX being the lead from what I know.
Things might have changed lately, but XSI was still behind LW a year ago or so when it came to the number of actual users.
Worley had some success because he offered a lot of tools, or very big tools (like Fprime) for a mid- price range. You can not find enough users that will buy a plugin for 20 USD to make a good living out of it. When you ask 500USD you will make some money and with multiple packages for that amount you will make a living.
Worley is fast and he is quite a genius too, so he deserves the success the has.
The other solution for 3rd party developers is to offer a very big package like VoluMedic and sell that for a lot more money. The number of users will be limited, but those that need it will buy it. I estimate our installed userbase to be at least 3 times as high as it currently is due to people using warez versions of it, though. This is something you need to calculate in right from the start, as sad as it is. We have also spent some effort into making sure that there are not that many warez sites out there, that offer VoluMedic.
The argument that warez will increase your sales btw is not true, I think, btw.
After a warez version of VoluMedic came out, our LW-plugin- sales went down quite a bit. With version 1.5 of VoluMedic this changed again a little bit (since we put some effort into making sure it does not get cracked right away), but we are still selling more into the non- LW- user- market than the LW- user- market.
CU
Elmar

Steamthrower
02-28-2008, 09:28 AM
So Elmar, reading a bit over your post, I have some questions.

First, do you consider the vast majority of LW users to be hobbyists? Versus 3DS Max users?

Next, how soon does warez crop up after a release? And what have you found the best measures of prevention to be?

3D|Dave
02-28-2008, 11:05 AM
"The problem with the "normal" LW users is that they either go for super- cheap or warez solutions."

Hey buddy, that's a low blow!

Did you ever consider that the cost of plugins have come down in price just as the software has or some developers are just a single individual with low overhead so they can offer plugins at lower cost. I also wouldn't say that all LW plugins are cheap either, look at Worley and 3D Evasion. Let's face it most users of Lightwave are not large studios with vast budgets and most developers know this.

Lightwolf
02-28-2008, 01:26 PM
"The problem with the "normal" LW users is that they either go for super- cheap or warez solutions."

Hey buddy, that's a low blow!
While it is, there's a small grain of truth in there...

Did you ever consider that the cost of plugins have come down in price just as the software has or some developers are just a single individual with low overhead so they can offer plugins at lower cost.
Most are... and they still only develop part time. There's one, maybe two developers out there that can live from writing LW plugins alone (I'm exclusing Elmar, because he is selling a turn key solution based on LW... you could alost see LW as a plugin to his VoluMedic ;) ).
As for the costs to come down... we've got two commercial products. In relation to the time spent developing, the expensive one is a steal. If I'd calculate with the rates my customers pay for CG work you could easily quadruple the price to justify the development time (in relation to sales).
There's also a huge different between hacking something together for in-house use (and maybe giving it away for free) and actually offering a commercial product with all duties that come with it (testing, features, support, documentation).
Also, for exrTrader we've deliberately aimed at the lowest pricing we could still live with as an experiment (plus, when it was released, it was the only cross platform EXR solution for LW, we even gave away the basics for free). Frankly, we don't think the experiment was sucessful (then again, it does aim at the more professional pipelines).


I also wouldn't say that all LW plugins are cheap either, look at Worley and 3D Evasion.
Are 3D Evasion still catering for the LW market at all?
And Steve Worley must be doing something right, because he's the one LW third party that has been around for the longest time - and it still alive and kicking.

Let's face it most users of Lightwave are not large studios with vast budgets and most developers know this.
Which also means that developers are likely to turn to other packages to increase their chances to make a living from coding.

Cheers,
Mike

Phil
02-28-2008, 02:25 PM
I have licenses for most of the LW plugins out there, and all of them get used on a frequent basis. I'd actually pay for another Dynamite license if I thought I was going to see 1.2 get released and Can raise himself from the dead.

infiniMap is certainly a steal, especially when you consider just how much RAM you would need to buy to render the textures that you can use with it. Same with HDInstance (although I admit the 2.0 pricing is steeper than I would have expected and liked, but the weak dollar is helping a lot).

Mind you, each dongle purchase makes me worry more and more about what will happen on that fateful day the dongle dies/gets lost or is stolen. So much investment, so much risk all riding on that single small lump of silicon wrapped in plastic.

Now, if developers would consider their users and open source their abandonware, I'd also be much, much happier about the investment in all these addons that I come to rely on. The loss of SE/DSFX, ShadowBlatt and SuperGlow 2 as maintained products by their developers was a tragic waste and a major slap in the face for the customers who supported them. It's not even, in this situation, a question of someone making a living. Except the customer.

Steamthrower
02-28-2008, 02:39 PM
Now, if developers would consider their users and open source their abandonware, I'd also be much, much happier about the investment in all these addons that I come to rely on. The loss of SE/DSFX, ShadowBlatt and SuperGlow 2 as maintained products by their developers was a tragic waste and a major slap in the face for the customers who supported them. It's not even, in this situation, a question of someone making a living. Except the customer.
Quoted for agreement. Either open source the abandonware, or make it postcardware. :D

Lightwolf
02-28-2008, 02:52 PM
Quoted for agreement. Either open source the abandonware, or make it postcardware. :D
The problem is... that won't be possible in many cases.
Usually leaving a plugin is never planned... so it might take a few years until the developer realises that it actually is abandonware.
Who knows, it might just be picked up again (FyberFactory was dormant for years) - and some developer don't like to share all of their code (I surely don't. Some of it I give away with pleasure, even now. But not core tech).


It's not even, in this situation, a question of someone making a living. Except the customer.
While I see what you're getting at... if you didn't make a living while the plugin was in development (you can usually purchase LW plugins and get them paid easily with one job) ... then you have a problem anyhow ;)

And while it is sad to see plugins die because they don't keep up with the host application, remember that they only represent a slice in time. It has also never been a habit of LW third parties to charge to keep plugins up to date with LW itself, something that is quite common on the other platforms (In a way, for LW plugins you pay for that with the initial purchase, which makes them even more of a steal).

On the other hand, you wouldn't want LW plugins to have a license model that is too different from LW (i.e. subscriptions, pay for adaptions to major updates of the host, license per platform, render node licenses etc...) - even though these could be beneficial to the developers.

Cheers,
Mike

Stooch
02-28-2008, 03:29 PM
thats why im all for newtek buying plugins and taking over them when they are promising. fact is because newtek is shooting for the bottom of the barrel in temrs of market, they MUST adopt good things in order to keep them alive. work out licensing fees or profit sharing with the writers so that they get compensated properly and then INTEGRATE PROPERLY into the core. Currently there is alot of grumbling about FF4 being included with LW but you know what, thats the best thing that could happen in this situation.

i want to see dynomite integrated and extending voxels, among many other tools, especially pictrix tools. not sure how long he will be around but i bet if he was given free reign over modeling tools we would have all the consolidation and interactivity people have been asking for and get it faster since its obvious that peoeple like him can pull it off already, having the full support of NT would only make things better.

3D|Dave
02-28-2008, 03:49 PM
thats why im all for newtek buying plugins and taking over them when they are promising. fact is because newtek is shooting for the bottom of the barrel in temrs of market, they MUST adopt good things in order to keep them alive. work out licensing fees or profit sharing with the writers so that they get compensated properly and then INTEGRATE PROPERLY into the core. Currently there is alot of grumbling about FF4 being included with LW but you know what, thats the best thing that could happen in this situation.

i want to see dynomite integrated and extending voxels, among many other tools, especially pictrix tools. not sure how long he will be around but i bet if he was given free reign over modeling tools we would have all the consolidation and interactivity people have been asking for and get it faster since its obvious that peoeple like him can pull it off already, having the full support of NT would only make things better.

I disagree, I would prefer Newtek to focus on delivering a solid unified program instead of piecing together eclectic pieces of code that a user could otherwise purchase.

If the market wanted and needed Lightwave fiber and fur then Worley and FF4 very well could be where Shave and a Haircut is today with Maya.

Stooch
02-28-2008, 03:53 PM
funny you mention maya, the KING of integrating third party tools.

erikals
02-28-2008, 03:58 PM
I disagree, I would prefer Newtek to focus on delivering a solid unified program instead of piecing together eclectic pieces of code that a user could otherwise purchase.

If the market wanted and needed Lightwave fiber and fur then Worley and FF4 very well could be where Shave and a Haircut is today with Maya.

Agree, if there is a good plugin and I need it, I buy it.
My hope is that NT develops stuff that 3rd parties can't.
Of course, there is always a limit though... I can think of several things they could have cleaned up a bit. But so far, so good, NT has had a steady good course lately.

Steamthrower
02-28-2008, 04:14 PM
I personally approve of Newtek appropriating the license to third-party products: if only for the reason that they're tied now to that installation, so if something happens to the dongle I don't have to go through the hectic mess of re-registering with the plugin manufacturers.

Stooch
02-28-2008, 04:15 PM
i dont think anyone arguing otherwise here 3ddave and erikals, are you just trying to argue for arguing sake?? if you actually pay attention - we are talking about the plugins that are dropped due to lack of development. such as dynomite seems to be. this IS the entire point of this topic afterall. good luck buying those plugins if you WANT them. i WANT dynomite but its not very useable at the moment and received no response from mr.cant - (reply to emails) - catran.

Steamthrower
02-28-2008, 04:20 PM
Seriously, everybody, if enough people donated the money there is a good chance we could buy the source to various (once) popular plugins that are now abandonware.

For stuff like Dynamite, or Hyperstars, or whatever the star gen program is that was abandoned, I'd definitely pitch in a couple hundred dollars just so development on them can be continued.

Lightwolf
02-28-2008, 04:28 PM
funny you mention maya, the KING of integrating third party tools.
On the other hand, they're also king of developing their own solid code base - and having the leisure of hiring people for research ... and then later development (Jos Stams comes to mind here...).

Cheers,
Mike

Stooch
02-28-2008, 04:33 PM
ill give you that. but i didnt say that lw should rely 100% on third party tools did i? you just put those words in my mouth and then argued the point.

my point is that some of the key maya features happen to be third party... mental ray, syflex, ravix, and a whole gaggle of features that got soaked up over the years (that i cant remember off the top of my head lol).a large percentage of the features above the foundation version of maya end up from 3rd parties, its only recently such features as ncloth come along that are indicative of the kind of innovation maya SHOULD be doing constantly. Even ncloth was a third party (a guy thats a consultant and hired by autodesk). Thats what i want! i want worley as a consultant to NT, pictrix, can, etc. Sure there are plugins that are too specialized for everyone. but everyone can benefit from better volumetrics (goes way beyoned fire!, what about volume light? fog? haze? sky?)

3D|Dave
02-28-2008, 04:34 PM
I have already donated enough to defunct plugin developers. I have PURCHASED Key Track, Metanoise, ACS4, Rounder, Hair Spray, Particle Storm, Lume Tools, Tree Druid, Ortho Pack, QV, to name a few.

Lightwolf
02-28-2008, 04:43 PM
ill give you that. but i didnt say that lw should rely 100% on third party tools did i? you just put those words in my mouth and then argued the point.
Hey, you said nothing else in that post... and calling them the "KING" of third party integration just isn't true (that's be 3DS Max ;) ).


my point is that some of the key maya features happen to be third party... mental ray, syflex, ravix, and a whole gaggle of features that got soaked up over the years (that i cant remember off the top of my head lol).
Just look at them though. Which of these are licensed third party products that are still developed by the third party (at least the core). That's quite a different business model from "let's buy the plugin and the developer" (which is already a lot better than "let's buy the plugin and leave the developer be...").

a large percentage of the features above the foundation version of maya end up from 3rd parties, its only recently such features as ncloth come along that are indicative of the kind of innovation maya SHOULD be doing constantly. Even ncloth was a third party (a guy thats a consultant and hired by autodesk).
I thought it sits on Nucleus, which to a great part is the design of Jos Stams who's been a in-house researcher at Alias for at least the past 7 years or so (which is when I saw him at Siggraph, before the next release of Maya added his fluids package).

Mind you, I'm only marginally arguing your point here. But getting externals in isn't always the best solution (witness business consultants for proof ;) ).

Cheers,
Mike

Bitboy
02-28-2008, 05:00 PM
I never needed Dynamite but it looked very very interesting - and it's sad that the developer does not respond to requests anymore.

I'd like to voice my support for the LW plugin developers out there. I buy plugins when I have the need for them or want to support a great product idea. And I just recently got EXCELLLENT support from Jason Hurdlow regarding VertiBevel - he went above and beyond what I expected. Thanks Jason and I'm looking forward to VB2.1 :)

Over the last 2 years I've purchased a nice bunch of plugins for LW. And that's really the only way I have of trying to nudge people to continue to develop and care for the Lightwave platform development vise.

What else can we mere mortals do? ;)

Lightwolf
02-28-2008, 05:04 PM
What else can we mere mortals do? ;)
And I thank you for being amongst our valued customer!

What else? Report bugs, send us feature requests :D

Cheers,
Mike

Bitboy
02-28-2008, 05:23 PM
My pleasure Mike :) exrTrader is excellent and thanks for the update!

Exception
02-28-2008, 05:30 PM
exrTrader is for Kittens.

One day I'll be one of them, I swear!

Phil
02-28-2008, 11:08 PM
While I see what you're getting at... if you didn't make a living while the plugin was in development (you can usually purchase LW plugins and get them paid easily with one job) ... then you have a problem anyhow ;)

Except that often there is no alternative. ShadowBlatt was the only way of dissolving shadow maps as the casting object(s) dissolved. LW doesn't handle this itself - the shadow map is either drawn or not, based on a binary evaluation of whether the object is dissolved or not. That's really unfortunate.

SuperGlow 2 - the only way to reflect/refract glows within LW, and to generate masks for compositing based on textures applied to object surfaces. Really, really powerful, but the developer has lost interest in it and despite promises of an update back when 9.0 was still in development, nothing has been seen or heard from him since.

Take a look at the Dynamic Realities catalog and weep for what has been lost.


And while it is sad to see plugins die because they don't keep up with the host application, remember that they only represent a slice in time. It has also never been a habit of LW third parties to charge to keep plugins up to date with LW itself, something that is quite common on the other platforms (In a way, for LW plugins you pay for that with the initial purchase, which makes them even more of a steal).

That depends. I don't mind paying for new features, but would be deeply unhappy to pay for bug fixes or simple recompiles. To my understanding, 3ds max plugin recompiles are generally not charged for.


On the other hand, you wouldn't want LW plugins to have a license model that is too different from LW (i.e. subscriptions, pay for adaptions to major updates of the host, license per platform, render node licenses etc...) - even though these could be beneficial to the developers.

Cheers,
Mike

Actually, HDInstance was licensed per platform. The upgrade, happily, isn't. Ozone 3 has render node licensing and per-platform licensing fees (and I have a node license for the Mac Mini - I was unwilling to bet the money on being able to make the license system work on the linux nodes)

If I end up paying more, but get frequent fixes and the developer is happy....I'm all for it. I really, really don't want to hit a brick wall in a project, turn to where the developer was for help and find....nothing. Dynamite is unfortunately impacting me in this way.

As mentioned before, I'm also not above buying additional licenses if I feel that would help. I would do so in a heartbeat if I had any feeling that it would help Can/Dynamite come alive again.

Stooch
02-29-2008, 12:21 AM
i doubt he cares to bes honest, if he gave a rats *** he would have posted here a long time ago, so either he doesnt visit here
(not good news) or he doesnt care (even worse).

Bog
02-29-2008, 02:33 AM
Oh Gh0d don't get me started on Dynamic Realities. I was such a fan of ParticleStorm/Napalm/Impact/Etc.

LightWave's ParticleFX simply doesn't cut it. Come to that, there's a whole steaming great slew of stuff that's Just Plain Missing from the tools these days, and I can understand why some plugin authors are a little less than enthusiastic to maintain or update, in some ways.

In others I just want to rip my hair out and run around screaming. Actually, some days I think that's the most intelligent response I can make: it's not like I've got a support contract with any of these developers which says they have to keep writing their plugins, after all. Nor would I want NewTek to try to ensure that LW's development kept all the legacy stuff working - that happenned with Intel processors and with Windows and we all know how that worked out - cruft and bletch in the nth degree.

In an ideal world, whenever a change in LightWave's SDK broke a plugin, then LW's core functionality would take up the load, or the plugin's author would do a new version which us lot would cheerfully buy. Again, case in point, if Dynamic Realities released a new particle plugin that worked beautifully with 9, I'd break the Mach getting my credit card out. But we can't make 'em, and NewTek'll get to the dynamics systems when they get to 'em.

Hair-ripping-out and running around screaming it is, then. Possibly wearing woad.

JBT27
02-29-2008, 06:42 AM
Considering one of the most criticised aspects of LW is its dynamics, and yet its one of the most standard aspects of modern 3D apps, you wonder why Dynamic Realities couldn't maintain those products and fill that gap - Worley manages it in their areas.

Julian.

Phil
02-29-2008, 07:43 AM
Now, to be fair, DR claim that all their products work in 9.0. I don't know and cannot test this - without UB ports, I'm not prepared to drop cash on addons for LW.

Where it might have gone slightly awry is that Dave Vrba is now a contractor for NewTek. It might well be that he is prohibited from working on them, or simply doesn't have the time to work on them. The single developer mention above is taken from DR's response to queries about UB ports : 'my developer is looking at them, but no timeline yet'

*shrug*

I'm not sure what other pies they have their hands in, but it's not a stretch to believe (from their web site) that, since 2001, LW plugins have been failing to meet expectations.

artstorm
02-29-2008, 07:48 AM
Now, to be fair, DR claim that all their products work in 9.0. I don't know and cannot test this - without UB ports, I'm not prepared to drop cash on addons for LW.

I've most DR products and as far as I can tell they all work just fine under 9.x. Unfortunately they are just 32 bits. Last time I contacted DR (A few weeks back) they said they would release 64 bit updates of their products if there was enough demand for it.

Phil
02-29-2008, 07:50 AM
The said the same about UB ports (last year). I'm resigned to their loss

Bog
02-29-2008, 08:31 AM
Email sent to Dynamic Realities asking for a 64-bit version of Napalm, and stating my willingness to buy it that very femtosecond.

Gee, that'd be swell.

Darth Mole
02-29-2008, 03:42 PM
NewTek should incorporate Napalm and Impact into LW, give 'em a fresh coat of paint and a bug-fix. Be way better than the current 'FX' stuff.

Just imagine if they were hard-coded into the pipeline, and totally stable. They'd be awesome...

Darth Mole
02-29-2008, 03:48 PM
For what it's worth, I just booted up LW 9.3.1 and Impact isn't working properly at all. Simulations are failing that otherwise worked fine in previous versions. :-(

Elmar Moelzer
02-29-2008, 05:03 PM
So Elmar, reading a bit over your post, I have some questions.

First, do you consider the vast majority of LW users to be hobbyists? Versus 3DS Max users?


I think that a good part of LWs userbase are hobbyists or semi- professionals, yes.


Next, how soon does warez crop up after a release? And what have you found the best measures of prevention to be?

It depends on how easy it is for crackers to have access to a copy of the software for cracking. Our first version had a demo that was just like the full version but with a timelimit. This was cracked rather quickly. 1.5 only has a demo where features have been removed from the actual code. This has not been cracked yet. It might have also helped that we asked the cracking team to be so nice and to not crack it anymore. The crack really hit sales hard for us, actually. I still think we would have sold more to the actual LW community without it.


Hey buddy, that's a low blow!

Did you ever consider that the cost of plugins have come down in price just as the software has or some developers are just a single individual with low overhead so they can offer plugins at lower cost. I also wouldn't say that all LW plugins are cheap either, look at Worley and 3D Evasion. Let's face it most users of Lightwave are not large studios with vast budgets and most developers know this.

Well I am not quite sure about that. I think that most LW users are actually using more software these days than ever before. Just not LW plugins. They rather just buy a seat of XSI Foundation, e.g.
The other problem is that LW users rarely like spending a lot of money on plugins. One reason is the huge amount of cheap, or free plugins out there (some might seem to do a job almost as good as their expensive counterparts). The other reason is the low price for LW itself. Just look at the prices for some MAYA, or MAX- plugins. They are way beyond prices for even the most expensive LW plugins (some are even more expensive than VoluMedic).
No LW user would ever consider paying that much for a plugin, especially with the price of LW being so low.
MAYA and MAX users are used to everything being expensive. They are used to speding thousands of USD for licensing renderers that are actually production- worthy. Something very few LW users would consider doing.

For us it still works out, as as Mike said, LW is more a plugin for VoluMedic than the other way round. Most of our users buy LW in order to use VoluMedic, not the other way round. So for us the low price of LW is both a blessing and a curse. A curse since LW users wont buy our plugin (as they consider it to expensive) and a blessing since our current main customers dont think that the price of a LW license is a biggy anyway...
CU
Elmar

Titus
02-29-2008, 08:54 PM
my point is that some of the key maya features happen to be third party... mental ray, syflex, ravix, and a whole gaggle of features that got soaked up over the years (that i cant remember off the top of my head lol).a large percentage of the features above the foundation version of maya end up from 3rd parties

A few years ago I had a long talk with Larry Lamb (http://www.lamb.com/) about this. They developed plugins for alias animator and Maya but decided to stop that business because not long after the creation of their plugins A/W gave that functionality to Maya. They identified weak points to A/W for free.

Now with a hair system included in LW, Worley is loosing a product and don't know if they can still be in the business searching for innovative features.

Stooch
02-29-2008, 10:39 PM
i doubt worley is losing much sales, all the serious hair guys that need hair already moved on to better pastures. maybe thats why he hasnt updated it in so long. now atleast he has an incentive. or maybe even less reason to make a hair plugin.

Lightwolf
03-01-2008, 03:50 AM
i doubt worley is losing much sales, all the serious hair guys that need hair already moved on to better pastures. maybe thats why he hasnt updated it in so long. now atleast he has an incentive. or maybe even less reason to make a hair plugin.
Yup. As a third party you either stay ahead of the host app or you loose out.
On the other hand you have the advantage of being able to concentrate on one specific aspect and get that right - instead of getting it to be "useable" and ready to be announced as a new feature.
HDInstance is a great example of that, since it goes way beyond some of the instancing functionality offered by other packages as well.
FPrime being another, even infiniMap is (other renderers offer similar functionality, but nowhere to the same extent).

In a way this is close the specialist vs. generalist positions in studios. Either have their place.

Cheers,
Mike

Bog
03-01-2008, 05:41 AM
NewTek should incorporate Napalm and Impact into LW, give 'em a fresh coat of paint and a bug-fix. Be way better than the current 'FX' stuff.

Just imagine if they were hard-coded into the pipeline, and totally stable. They'd be awesome...

I'm looking forward to NewTek implimenting dynamics systems that'll let us do things like that - everything from being able to have specific steady birth-rates, so it'd be useful for gunfire, through to proper flocking, swarming, assembly and so on - but I don't want 'em to buy Napalm and Impact.

Almost every time NT's bought a third-party plugin out, it's not really worked out too well. Almost.. I just think it's too important for them to risk the issues to reverse-engineering someone else's code, or whatever.

Re: Volumedic. Elmar, I'm gutted to hear it got cracked and ripped off :( It's a brilliant bit of tech.

Lightwolf
03-01-2008, 05:48 AM
Re: Volumedic. Elmar, I'm gutted to hear it got cracked and ripped off :( It's a brilliant bit of tech.
That happens to all of us :(
Our products are a bit different, since you can load, save and render scenes on an un-licensed product. So we do include the full functionality and have the paid for features locked away. Pay for a license, unlock the (previously downloaded) plugin and you're ready to roll.

I really don't want to go the demo route with two different sets of plugins to handle for customers, but it might just what we'll end up doing depending on how things progress. :thumbsdow

Cheers,
Mike

Bog
03-01-2008, 05:51 AM
Yeah :/ At least with Shaxam, it's natively two separate plugins - the Modeler freebie doohickey that plops out textured geometry, and the Layout plugin that's dongle-locked, spits out whole animated scenes and comes with the morphing .DLL - the latter freely distributable.

Bleh. It's a daft one, but I think the point about LWers being so used to free/inexpensive plugins is a valid one - we're kinda spoiled, which can occasionally lead to Whiny Behaviour when one has to shell out cashy money.

Edbittner
03-01-2008, 07:45 AM
I think that a good part of LWs userbase are hobbyists or semi- professionals, yes.
Elmar

It must be good to be you sir!
This is the very attitude that keeps studios looking for more expensive,
(team ware), solutions for CG problems that can be readily,(easily), done in Lightwave. Hobbyists all were we,until our unique skill, talent, eye, etc., enabled us to find solutions in our software of choice,(LW), that weren't workarounds, just more efficient. Working with since 5.6 to now I am able to tell you from experience that LW is the best out of the box program available.
Check SCi-fi channes "DUNE". Everything was done in "LW OUT OF THE BOX"
except some sabrtooth tiger fur, (which was done in Sasquach). It is the pinnacle of what can be achieved from an "out of the box" program.
However, if one has a dozen or more programmers on staff to accomplish what LW can do just after putting in the program cd, pay 'em use 'em then lay them all off when they can't get Maya's particles to do what LW's can,
so solly.
E.

Elmar Moelzer
03-01-2008, 08:06 AM
Ed. I am sorry if this came over sounding more negative than it was meant to be. I am the last one to talk badly about LW. I think it is a great piece of software and very, very usable for professional work. Heck thats one reason why we chose it as the basis for VoluMedic.
Also, I think that most packages have a certain amount of hobbyist users. Some a little more than others (simply because their pricing puts them out of reach for hobby- users, unless they are willing to use cracks).
I also think that having a good amount of hobby- users is not something to complain about either. As you said, many professionals out there, started as hobbyists.
What I meant though was that hobby and semi- pro users have less money to spend on expensive plugins. If there are two solutions to a problem, one cheap or free, but not so good and one better, but more expensive they either go with the cheap one, or get the more expensive one as warez.
One more thing: MAX is probably the package with the biggest hobby- userbase. But the hobby- MAX- users are mostly warez users (MAX is the most cracked of the big packages from what I know). But users of cracks dont make a userbase for plugin- developers...
CU
Elmar

erikals
03-01-2008, 08:06 AM
@ Ed, Not sure I agree, LW has been left behind in many cases because the poor CA tools.
I think it is the best tool for hobbyist / freelancers.
Yes, for static animation it is great, great for TV adds etc.

However a drawback has been the poor CA tools, well, maybe not poor, but other packages are way better.
Seperated Modeler Layout has scarred some artist, their own fault to a sertain extent, but that doesn't matter as long as NT isn't able to win that market.
Dynamics is another thing, good for simple stuff, not good for complex stuff.

LW is allright, but certainly it has major lacks.
Hopefully 10 will fix that.

Bog
03-01-2008, 08:08 AM
Easy there, Ed - I'm a veteran of LW since '93 or so my own self, and I know what you're saying is true. Elmar's point is valid, we do have a large number of hobbyists and semipros working with LW, as much for it's price-point and egaletarian community as for it's power and ease of use.

Dune, New Galactica, chunks of the latest Superman movie, things like Stealth which despite it's popcorn storyline was in fact a beautiful movie.... heck, pretty much anything with CGI has at least a bit o' LightWave love in it. We all know this.

Three deep breaths and a double whisky there, eh?

jasonwestmas
03-01-2008, 10:15 AM
LW is an affordable and professional solution for anybody, end of story. Like most packages, there are features in there that are easy to master and other features that are hard as nails to control. In other words LW is so slick in some areas and wanting in others. I thought this was obvious.

colkai
03-01-2008, 12:05 PM
we do have a large number of hobbyists and semipros working with LW, as much for it's price-point and egaletarian community as for it's power and ease of use.
Abso-posa-lutely !

I cannot, as a hobbyist, afford the high end stuff like volumedic. That said, it is not aimed at me and even if I bought it, I doubt it would get used.

I love that LW is relatively 'cheap' to buy into and that the community is full of wonderful folks coding plugins for free and also at 'very reasonable' prices as well as the "top-drawer" stuff. The power that brings, (not to mention Newtek giving out free software such as LWCAD) is more than any pro would of dreamed of only 5 years or so ago.

Whilst XSI may have come down in price and be tempting for new folks, for those of us already on the LW bandwagon who do not do it for a living, LW is a cosy place to hang out.

The folks, by and large, of the community are crazy, screw-loose fun people and willing to help all but the most difficult and inane.

I cannot begin to count the times I count my blessings to be part of this, (though lately, I'll grant you, 'blessings' is not the phrase I would choose for some traffic ;) ).

starbase1
03-01-2008, 05:29 PM
I think that a good part of LWs userbase are hobbyists or semi- professionals, yes.

Well I am not quite sure about that. I think that most LW users are actually using more software these days than ever before. Just not LW plugins. They rather just buy a seat of XSI Foundation, e.g.

The other problem is that LW users rarely like spending a lot of money on plugins. One reason is the huge amount of cheap, or free plugins out there (some might seem to do a job almost as good as their expensive counterparts). The other reason is the low price for LW itself. Just look at the prices for some MAYA, or MAX- plugins. They are way beyond prices for even the most expensive LW plugins (some are even more expensive than VoluMedic).


I'm in the serious amateur / occasional pocket money area myself. I think there is a lot in what you are saying. I can understand why the higher end plugins have the price they do, but they are not, in general for me.

When I have a bit of money for some extra graphic toys I certainly like to look at ways to get more out of LW. But very often, as you say, it may just be more effective to spend money elsewhere. To be specific, last year when my annual bonus came through there are several plugins I would have liked, (I still would actually as an honest person I don't have hacked versions!)

But when I looked around, I got more new stuff to play with by getting a mix of other tools, (particularly if they could export something that LW could import, it's still my tool of choice).

So I went for spending my cash on things like Groboto, Xenodream, upgrading PS elements (My old V7 of the full one does everything I need), buying some reference books, a copy of Hexagon, a 500 Gb USB drive so I really could back up ALL the important stuff easily, a bigger memory card for my digital camera...

I'm sure that many of what I see as expensive plug-ins are GREAT value for the serious pro, and I'm pretty sure that no plug-in authors are getting rich fast! But if your plugin is over 200 pounds UK, I can get most the stuff in my list above for the same money, and generally it's going to let me do more cool things.

I'm not not buying your product because I have a hacked one, or because I think you don't deserve the money for all the work you put in. Something that will save a days work on a project for a pro, and give a notch up in quality is worth a lot in a pro market. If it offers something you can't do otherwise it may be invaluable. It's not the same for an enthusiast.

And seeing products fade out of support, and authors out of contactability REALLY puts me off in a big way in general.

Nick

Bog
03-01-2008, 05:39 PM
Well c'mon - Elmar's product is a specialist tool. And, the hoops he must'a had to jump through to get listed as an actual human diagnosis tool - not to mention the sprawling, jungle terrain that is DICOM - puts it well out of the Enthusiast Plugin zone. Hell, if you just want to "prat about" with volume data, Dynamite - as it stands - will do that for you. If you want something a diagnostician can use, or if you want to make Organ Pron (sic), then presumably you're in a place where Volumedic will pay for itself.

I'm probably being a bit militant, 'cause Elmar inspired me a bit and I feel like I owe him a lot of beer which I have yet to pour into him.

But my point is that LightWave doesn't have an amateur userbase, nor a semi-pro userbase, nor a pro userbase.

LightWave has all the base and it belong to us. We're all here - from high-end scientists through special effects types in Hollywood and outsourced to Bhophal gh0d help us to TV guys on Stargate and Galactica to guys like me jobbing our way through life and trying to make things a smidge more interesting to your trudgers, your students, your hearty amateurs, your strivers, your newbies and those guys who you nod understandingly at while you edge away from them.

We are all that. We're everywhere, doing everything. It's right that the plugin marketplace represents that, rather than trying to make every automation plugin a Ģ50 download, or high-end science a, erm, Ģ50 download. All things, in all places, at all times.

The Bizarre Bazaar of the LightWave plugin. Gh0d bless 'er and all who sail in 'er.

Edbittner
03-02-2008, 11:16 AM
Easy there, Ed - I'm a veteran of LW since '93 or so my own self, and I know what you're saying is true. Elmar's point is valid, we do have a large number of hobbyists and semipros working with LW, as much for it's price-point and egaletarian community as for it's power and ease of use.

Dune, New Galactica, chunks of the latest Superman movie, things like Stealth which despite it's popcorn storyline was in fact a beautiful movie.... heck, pretty much anything with CGI has at least a bit o' LightWave love in it. We all know this.

Three deep breaths and a double whisky there, eh?

Sorry, had a single breath and a triple 15yr old scotch. Life is good!
E.

RonGC
03-02-2008, 12:23 PM
Im sure that every 3d app has a hobbyist base of a sort.

A lot of LW users have similar stories to me, i ran my own Video production company and lw was an add on tool for production graphics, motion graphics, titling etc. Now that i have retired from that i am using LW more and learning to use the app to its fullest.

The simple fact for users like myself was that 99 percent of the plugins out there were simply not needed for my work and were not purchased. since i have started using LW just for fun now, i have actually bought a lot of plugins that before were not on my radar.

So i guess now i am no longer ranked a professional, just a hobbyist, but i am buying more plugins now. How weird is that?

You have to realize though that lw has a lot of professional people using it on the video side, at one time that was Lightwaves bread and butter, may still be. Most plugins are not designed or needed for that type of work.

Ron

Edbittner
03-02-2008, 12:23 PM
Oh, just one more thing............
My copy of LW 5.6 was around 3 grand, so it wasn't a matter of financial choice, but one of capability.
I continue to allow my competitors to consider me a genius, not only because of my uncanny problem solving, but also my foresight in choosing the software that can do damn near everything I need it to do. Kind of a love-hate thing going on with 'em.
E.

Edbittner
03-02-2008, 12:31 PM
Abso-posa-lutely !


The folks, by and large, of the community are crazy, screw-loose fun people and willing to help all but the most difficult and inane.
;) ).

Personally, I don't consider myself crazy, and neither do I.
E.

Bog
03-03-2008, 06:06 AM
I'm not crazy, I'm just operating at the outer edge of the performance envelope.

Phil
04-02-2008, 11:51 AM
Still no news. I think this parrot is well and truly dead :(

erikals
04-02-2008, 12:51 PM
Yup, wrote a mail few feeks ago, no answer, so don't bet on this horse.
Still, Dynamite has some potential here and there,.. even though it won't be developed further doesn't mean it can't be used.
Haven't experimented on using workarounds, might very well be some could work.

To be honest, even if it was developed further, I think the technology of fluids in general are at such an early stage that this plugin wouldn't be that more usefull to me even if it had an upgrade. I think the standard has to be of FumeFX quality to have any chance on looking realistic in highres, heck, even FumeFX can't cut it, so videofootage would be the best bet for many things. (for smoke only though (no flames) FumeFX is great, +non-realisic like cartoons)

Just my opinion.

I surely hope fluids come around though, its is needed.
Nope, not that D-storm one,.. didn't think much of it.
For fluids Blender would be the thing to bet on these days, free too.

starbase1
04-02-2008, 04:21 PM
Yup, wrote a mail few feeks ago, no answer, so don't bet on this horse.

No word back on hyperstars either...

Steamthrower
04-02-2008, 05:47 PM
I had emailed the Dynamite guy as well...no response. I'd say unless he magically resurrects from the grave, this plugin is dead meat.

erikals
04-02-2008, 05:57 PM
Who knows, many programers are just darn slow to reply... just don't hold your breath... http://erikalstad.com/smiley/holdbreath2.gif

prometheus
04-03-2008, 06:51 AM
Bahh..two of the coolest volumetric plugins for lightwave just disappears into
a dark void.
Ogo taiki and dynamite.

And I was really looking forward to invest in dynamite if it could gain and match up to mayas fluid or fumefx to a certain extent.:(

If cantarcan has made a decision not to develop it more, it would be a nice
thing of him to put a statement up..It would actually help me start to think
about learning complementary applications and tools besides lightwave(not the only reason thou.)

But lets just hope everythings okay with him regardless if he will continue to develop dynamite, I mean a lot can happen in life, so I just hope He will give the lightwave community some hint on where it will go, that will at least give me the possibility to make up my min about future training and economics.

Alternatively...Newtek develops an internal fluid solution by themselves.

Michael I

erikals
04-03-2008, 07:01 AM
True, life is not straight foreward, things can happen.

On a good side, I just have this feeling something will come around in not too long,.. not sure what or from where, just have this feeling. :yoda:

prometheus
04-03-2008, 07:04 AM
[QUOTE
On a good side, I just have this feeling something will come around in not too long,.. not sure what or from where, just have this feeling. :yoda:[/QUOTE]

What?...have you been talking to the midichlorians again:)
I surely hope those little bast..aren?t lying to you?


Michael I

erikals
04-03-2008, 07:30 AM
Lol :) If its them I hope they're telling the thruth... who knows man,... who knows... or are these cigarettes lying,
I swear it says 'Marlboro' and are not home made hehe :)

Bog
04-03-2008, 07:32 AM
Just for fun, I'm gonna email the link to this discussion to Can's email addy. Maybe if he saw how much we all care, then he'd at least let us know one way or the other.

creativecontrol
04-03-2008, 07:49 AM
Just for fun, I'm gonna email the link to this discussion to Can's email addy. Maybe if he saw how much we all care, then he'd at least let us know one way or the other.

Good idea. It was such an exciting development and I for one would have bought it once it got more usable.

Maybe the poor guy is in jail. If so, lets find out where and send him a computer :)

Steamthrower
04-03-2008, 07:52 AM
Apparently you, Creative Control, have been hauled off to jail before. Was it your girlfriend who snapped the photo? :D

Bog
04-03-2008, 08:04 AM
Now, now. As productive as it would be to seize and incarcerate programmers, building them a Fortress of Solitude from which they can produce our toys, we really don't want to go that route.

Our clients may hear about it, and do it to us too!

OOZZEE
04-03-2008, 01:59 PM
i think someone should pretend to be a potential customer wanting to buy dynamite and see if he responds to the smell of more $$$... if he doesnt respond, then we can really say that its game over for that thing.... and if he does respond, then we can say 'GOTCHA!!

I know, thats mean.... but it would be funny !!

Bog
04-03-2008, 02:07 PM
I can't find the specific email, but I distinctly recall effectively saying "I have my credit card in my hand, waiting to buy a 64-bit version from you. I don't care if it's the same price as the 32-bit version all over again. I have money. I will pay. Let me pay. Please, please, let me pay. I want to give you money. Take my money. Give me software. For money. From me. Now."

Maybe not quite like that, but that was the gist.

email tumbleweed rolled past... *sigh*

jasonwestmas
04-03-2008, 02:16 PM
I paid him money. . .I'd more more than happy to pay for another upgrade for this one!

Steamthrower
04-03-2008, 02:35 PM
I'm sitting here and I have a credit card in my back pocket.

Dynamite is the most advanced flame/particle simulation plugin for LW that I am aware of. I would gladly pay for this...yet not if it would stay closed source and unsupported/undeveloped. Having this plugin, using it in projects, adding it to my demo reel, all of this would allow me to make more money off of it than I would spend on it.

Back to my original thought...surely if we got together a large Paypal donation we could buy him out. It's not like he's making any money off it at the moment. Don't know, though. I'd definitely contribute some money in the 3 digit range.

Exception
04-03-2008, 02:47 PM
What about pushing the lads from volumedic to develop something like this?
They already have the superduper volumetric render engine, and they're quite skilled I'd say...

Steamthrower
04-03-2008, 02:52 PM
Elmar?

Bog
04-03-2008, 03:49 PM
Regularfry and I developed something that's along similar lines, but I really, really don't want to tread on Elmar's toes as this is territory he's plumbed before.

Steamthrower
04-03-2008, 03:58 PM
Well, wherever the plugin comes from, I'll gladly pay for it. I'm sure a lot of people are interested, looking at the responses that this thread has had. Autodesk users have FumeFX...we have...nothing?

creativecontrol
04-03-2008, 03:58 PM
Apparently you, Creative Control, have been hauled off to jail before. Was it your girlfriend who snapped the photo? :D

Uhhh...how did you know? 8~

Bog
04-03-2008, 04:02 PM
Uhhh...how did you know? 8~

We watch all.

We know all.

Stop playing with yourself.

Phil
04-03-2008, 11:50 PM
I'm sitting here and I have a credit card in my back pocket.

Dynamite is the most advanced flame/particle simulation plugin for LW that I am aware of. I would gladly pay for this...yet not if it would stay closed source and unsupported/undeveloped. Having this plugin, using it in projects, adding it to my demo reel, all of this would allow me to make more money off of it than I would spend on it.

Back to my original thought...surely if we got together a large Paypal donation we could buy him out. It's not like he's making any money off it at the moment. Don't know, though. I'd definitely contribute some money in the 3 digit range.

I've asked several times regarding buying the source code. Still no answer :(

mav3rick
04-04-2008, 03:26 AM
yea right...... well it is really hard time for developers... i am sorry but i am not going to give my money to MUTE developers anymore... so far i have bought/lost support plugins from 3 developers... so only worley seems good investment regarding his support to clients.... rest of guys are falling stars.... sounds a bit hard? well it is money.... but really if newtek didnt show off they are really interested to continue on lw and support community they would be in dead waters since 6.0..... luckily my money still goes to them

Phil
04-04-2008, 03:28 AM
I don't know. I have good support from almost all developers. One two have attracted my ire because they have abandoned their customers (including me) with not a word of consideration or act of compensation (in the case of pre-orders for SE/DSFX 2) - Prem and Can.

Elmar Moelzer
04-05-2008, 12:04 PM
Yo, we are still here and I am reading up on things.
No, we are currently not working on a CFD solution based on VoluMedic. Our resources are currently already spread a bit thin as it is. But... if things keep going the way they are now, we will probably expand our business a little bit soon. Then we can hopefully go back to this CFD thing. My dream would be to take VoluMedic and make different versions based on the same basics. I would really like a FX version that allows to feed the renderer with more than just datasets, but also stuff generated from procedurals and dynamics, etc.
Still a while until then, but if noone else claims that part, we will go there...
CU
Elmar

Exception
04-06-2008, 01:11 PM
But... if things keep going the way they are now, we will probably expand our business a little bit soon.

What's your price?
Chocolate?
Kittens?
Women?
Small furry trees that go -ah- in the evening?
What?!

Bog
04-06-2008, 03:04 PM
I think you'll find that The Highest Compliment is always appreciated by both artist, developer and teacher, Exception.

You know. Beer tokens. Auld Foldin'. Green. No reason to say it like it's a bad thing. Ever since the Phoenecians invented money, there's only been one true compliment one person can pay another....

jasonwestmas
04-06-2008, 08:29 PM
I have 500 U.S. Dollars ready for you Elmar. Whatever that is worth.

Phil
04-07-2008, 01:52 AM
Not a lot these days :D Sorry - couldn't resist

jasonwestmas
04-07-2008, 11:06 AM
Not a lot these days :D Sorry - couldn't resist

Exactly. . .:grumpy:

starbase1
04-07-2008, 11:23 AM
I've got ninety thousand pounds in my pyjamas.
I've got forty thousand French francs in my fridge.
I've got lots of lovely lire.
Now the Deutschmark's getting dearer,
And my dollar bills would buy the Brooklyn Bridge.


I think you'll find that The Highest Compliment is always appreciated by both artist, developer and teacher, Exception.

You know. Beer tokens. Auld Foldin'. Green. No reason to say it like it's a bad thing. Ever since the Phoenecians invented money, there's only been one true compliment one person can pay another....

Steamthrower
04-08-2008, 04:02 PM
I will pay $6,124,400.00 in Zimbabwean dollars towards Dynamite.

Qexit
04-08-2008, 04:27 PM
I think you'll find that The Highest Compliment is always appreciated by both artist, developer and teacher, Exception.

You know. Beer tokens. Auld Foldin'. Green. No reason to say it like it's a bad thing. Hey Bog, have you been watching repeats of 'Not the Nine O'Clock News', the pay negotiations sketch which ended with Rowan Atkinson very sheepishly mentioning money right at the end after someone's wife's recipe for ratatouille didn't quite clinch the deal ? :D

calilifestyle
04-08-2008, 04:41 PM
So i have to ask does the current version of dynamite not work with lw 9.3. and how many of you own it. and how many of you dont own it but are QQ about it ;-)

Bog
04-08-2008, 04:42 PM
Works fine with 9.3 32-bit here.

Phil
04-09-2008, 10:58 AM
So i have to ask does the current version of dynamite not work with lw 9.3. and how many of you own it. and how many of you dont own it but are QQ about it ;-)

Own it, have various versions (1.13, 1.14, 1.2) and builds of it around (Win32, CFM LW, UB LW). The 1.11 release and/or 1.12 works better with large cache files, but this has been broken for some time - anything over roughly 2 GB fails to be handled - it's a simple index error I think, but since it's closed source, no-one can fix it.

Sadly, only the very last builds of 1.2 allow the volume to receive fog affects.

None of them support multithreading in simulation mode. 1.2 supports threading better, but not perfectly, in rendering.

All of them obfuscate the settings in the scene file, and hardcode the cache file path and name.

1.2 also saves differently in Windows compared to Mac. Earlier versions would load in the settings fine, but 1.2 loads a Windows-built scene with all settings lost. The only workaround is to screengrab every single panel and setting for every single Dynamite setup and re-apply them on the other side. Going from Mac to Windows has the same problem.

Can still hasn't responded to a single mail from me since December. I'm fed up and will willingly shove cash at any developer wanting to tackle this side of things. I'm really annoyed at having to use blobby HVs and LW's flaky (often aborting) dynamics again.

Phil
04-09-2008, 11:25 AM
It is an interesting question, though. I wonder what it would take to contract a developer to put something like this together....

starbase1
04-09-2008, 12:43 PM
It is an interesting question, though. I wonder what it would take to contract a developer to put something like this together....

If we are talking about the kind of cash we gather ourselves, it would probably work a lot better to use the money to sponsor a shove in that direction for Blender...

Nick

Steamthrower
04-09-2008, 12:56 PM
If Blender gets it's UI right, I would go with that.

Right now, no way. At least with my non-technical grasp of modeling and animation, there's no way I'm spending money on a software I couldn't use to make a profit anyway. I think a lot of us, since every single one of us has bought a $900 LW license, think the same.

wavk
04-10-2008, 03:38 AM
blender's ui is actually really intuitive once u get the hang of it.
looking forward though to the new ui which is in dev now.

mlon

creacon
04-10-2008, 03:46 AM
That quote tells it all, intuitive means you don't have to get the hang of it, just follow your intuition. I looked at 3D-coat and that's what I call intuitive, start the software and start working.

creacon



blender's ui is actually really intuitive once u get the hang of it.


mlon

LazyCoder
04-10-2008, 12:16 PM
Yea... there is nothing easy about Blender's interface. But what I DO like about it is that I've already got all the hotkeys memorized so I can model VERY fast. (LW's modeller sucks in comparison).

For me, the only useable part of this plugin is the particle part (the part that comes in the free version... :bangwall:) because the fluids can either be crappy and last long, or it can be a short high detailed animation, because once that cache file gets to around 2 or 3 GB, it bugs out and gives weird unusable results.

I'd feel a lot better if I knew the guy was even still working on it.

erikals
04-10-2008, 02:23 PM
Blender cannot make fancy smoke though?... can it?

Bog
04-11-2008, 05:23 PM
I'd imagine so, Erikals. It does rather good liquids, so smoke's just going to be a shader setting. At least that's how it looks in my brain without having tried it.

LazyCoder
04-14-2008, 11:40 AM
You can't. It can look like smoke, but it won't behave like smoke. It's still a fluidsim, but it just doesn't behave the same, dunno why.

Anti-Distinctly
04-14-2008, 05:42 PM
Liquids and gasses are governed by the same equation (navier-stokes). As far as solving goes there is no difference between liquids and gasses. The difference comes in when you have to render. With gasses it is easier as you do not have to define an exact surface as you do when dealing with liquids.
Blender is strange in the respect that it does not do gasses considering many common problems, such as dissipation, are not noticed by most when looking at vaporous gas simulations. I guess it means that blender does not have a volume render capability.

Phil
04-14-2008, 11:32 PM
Looking around, there's also OpenCFD (opencfd.co.uk) which is GPLed. I've no idea of whether it can be used in combination with LW though. Came across it, ran out of time and moved on to other things.

Anti-Distinctly
04-15-2008, 06:52 AM
I'm sure that it can be. If it has any libraries available they can be written into a plugin. Interesting...

ebouchoc
04-18-2008, 01:54 PM
I am trying to get dynamite 1.13b to work on my vista quad core. It keeps crashing any thoughts?

jasonwestmas
04-19-2008, 07:30 AM
I am trying to get dynamite 1.13b to work on my vista quad core. It keeps crashing any thoughts? You can't multithread with it I think. That may cause the crash.

Phil
04-22-2008, 09:44 AM
Try 1.2 - just released :D

http://www.cantarcan.com/v12/download.html

Steamthrower
04-22-2008, 09:58 AM
Aha! So he is alive. Good news.

Phil
04-22-2008, 10:06 AM
Mind you, the UB version still won't load settings from the example content scenes. Interchange between platforms was broken in the earlier build I had as well. I've reported it again since he appears to have resurfaced....

wildr3d
04-22-2008, 10:09 AM
Thank the FX gods!

Dynamite lives on!

prometheus
04-22-2008, 10:43 AM
well nice to see it still around, not that big of an update thou.
I had wished for more stuff in it.
ohh ...it would be nicer to try the demo out with watermarks instead of noise covering the whole fluid, doesnīt make any sense
trying it out with that really.

What's new

Sub-Framing in Fluid Simulations
Pause / Resume Fluid Calculations
Fluid Cache Compression Algorithm
Skipping First n-Frames
LW Basic Fog Support
The new Mac and Win64 versions
Various bug fixes
Particle Fire Shader works now correctly in v1.2 , Render results can be different due some important changes in the render engine.



Still good to se it alive and perhaps soon kickin:)

Phil
04-22-2008, 11:07 AM
It's a fairly big update. The cache compression alone is a major help. There is a hint of multithreaded calculations coming in a future update as well. Subframing and pause/resume support is also very welcome.

The fog support was also a major win for me when I got the first builds of 1.2 last year.

The biggest improvement has to be the documentation. There are actual tutorials now :)

Steamthrower
04-22-2008, 11:08 AM
This is exciting, but after it being silent, unsupported, and undeveloped so long, it makes me hesitate to drop 189 Euros on it. Even on his website he says to not email him unless it's really important.

...is being silent for half a year unimportant?

Phil
04-22-2008, 11:27 AM
It's certainly a consideration for those wanting to pick it up now. I dropped cash on this just after it was released, like FFIV, so I am glad to see an update that :

- works and splits large cache files above 2 GB by default (no more large caches not rendering!)
- supports cache compression - it's making life more bearable

I'm hammering through my long-postponed Dynamite scenes to see what works and what doesn't. So far, it looks promising (barring a few glitches). I'm half-hoping that the damage done to the reputation of this product can be undone.

At least Can is now stating up-front that he is not responsive to email - half of a solution to a problem is recognising the problem :D

jasonwestmas
04-22-2008, 11:36 AM
If it's a lot faster, that alone is a wonderful upgrade. The quality of the shader and animation alone was amazing back when it was first released. I'll have to test this new version see how it compares. Definately on my todo list ;)

prometheus
04-22-2008, 12:21 PM
Well The pdf documentation is good, that was really missing before..so thumbs up for that,some rocket tutorials using particles, and a good description of how the fluids are working.

the particle shader looks much better now I think, and a little bit faster, have to test it more.

Steamthrower
04-22-2008, 12:26 PM
By the way, on a totally unrelated note: Andrew told me that he should have a 3D Coat version out for Mac in 3 months or so! Maybe this is old news for you guys, but talk about an efficient programmer!

Phil
04-22-2008, 12:49 PM
Cache compression rocks. I'm seeing cache files around 15% of their original size. Wonderful.

OOZZEE
04-22-2008, 01:31 PM
not responding to emails...!!! too bad he is taking this route...

he should use his imagination a little or we could help him with suggestions to rectify that !!

here's mine....he should give away a copy to anyone who is willing to help support the questions for a contract period of six months.

this should free his time to continue any updates... after six months, if the individual wishes to continue, he/she gets the free update.

Steamthrower
04-22-2008, 01:43 PM
Or he just needs to develop it to the point that Newtek buys his plugin and integrates it into version 10. :D

OOZZEE
04-22-2008, 02:00 PM
yes but he is not responding to emails... so if newtek tries to contact him........ he may miss that offer...... ( joking of course, but I like that idea )

prometheus
04-22-2008, 05:13 PM
Regardless of what happens concerning Dynamite fluids, I think itīs really about time Newtek do somekind of statement or show some direction to
If they are going in that step to make a fluid engine of their own, or simply make a statement that it wonīt be developed for some time,instead of leaving
everyone unsecure of whats going on,Dont ya think fluids has become such a big part of the vfx business now?

Not sure but it sure seems to be a big topic and of big interest for many users
out there.

Not everything is fluids thou, maybe 75% of our bodys perhaps:)

jasonwestmas
04-22-2008, 05:36 PM
well it was stated pretty clearly a year or so ago that you won't see any kind of "Fluid" simulation in native lightwave in the near future. I kind of laugh at that because a native hair and fur solution wasn't even in the cards till it just suddenly appeared two months ago for 9.5.

I mean really, what NT does is really, really unpredictable.

prometheus
04-22-2008, 06:29 PM
Yeah..one year ago:)

OOZZEE
04-22-2008, 10:38 PM
Dynamite 1.2 is only crashing me... cant do nothing with it. anyone else having trouble on LW9.3.1

calilifestyle
04-22-2008, 11:42 PM
lol i cant seem to find the plugging once i add it. did have this problem before

rikperni
04-23-2008, 01:39 AM
lol i cant seem to find the plugging once i add it. did have this problem before

Same proble here...

cagey5
04-23-2008, 03:10 AM
With the 1.1 version I'm sure there was a nonSSE2 version. I get the same crashing on my older PC [Athlon XP2800] but not on my newer one [Athlon 64 X2]. So it may be your processor that's the problem.

JensD
04-23-2008, 03:47 AM
I tried Dynamite Lite and the 32Bit Version is crashing all the time.
System: XP64, 2 X Woodcrest 5160 on Intel 5000X chipset.

Anti-Distinctly
04-23-2008, 07:09 AM
Regardless of what happens concerning Dynamite fluids, I think itīs really about time Newtek do somekind of statement or show some direction to
If they are going in that step to make a fluid engine of their own, or simply make a statement that it wonīt be developed for some time,instead of leaving
everyone unsecure of whats going on,Dont ya think fluids has become such a big part of the vfx business now?

Yup, Jay did say that it would require a full time person, so I don't think that it's on the cards just now.

wildr3d
04-23-2008, 07:26 AM
Dynamite 1.2 is only crashing me... cant do nothing with it. anyone else having trouble on LW9.3.1

Same here, simulations run fine but when I try to render or preview in viper lightwave just shuts down.

Steamthrower
04-23-2008, 07:35 AM
Looks like for now I'll be comping in particle effects the old way. :)

jasonwestmas
04-23-2008, 07:38 AM
Dynamite 1.2 works fine so far....it calculates correctly; blows fire and smoke around;and does render correctly it seems. The only wierd thing I found was that for some reason when I downloaded the plugin it didn't have the correct extension on it so I changed it from .plugin to .p

OOZZEE
04-23-2008, 10:47 AM
Same here, simulations run fine but when I try to render or preview in viper lightwave just shuts down.

yes - forgot to specify that its the rendering that crashes...on XP Pro 32bit. LW9.3.1

jasonwestmas - what are you running on ?

wildr3d
04-23-2008, 01:00 PM
OK, I came into work this morning and thought maybe the temp cache feature is the problem and started a CFD sim with a cache file saved. All seemed fine, viper was working I reloaded the scene did some test frames all good. Then I cleared the scene made an emitter and tried voxel mode, still worked fine (except for this render error I posted), then I turned on "Show in Viewport" hit F9 - Crash!, the weird thing is Dynamite continues to crash from this point on.

OOZZEE
04-23-2008, 01:10 PM
=(except for this render error I posted), then I turned on "Show in Viewport" hit F9 - Crash!, the weird thing is Dynamite continues to crash from this point on.

YUP - exact same steps I did.... and when I clicked show in viewport, the particles blinked on then off then on then off until I hit F9.... boom !

for the rendering, I think he indicated that some renders might not work due to changes in latest LW.... but wasnt expect that garble at the bottom of your pic !!!!!!

alvin_cgi
04-23-2008, 03:21 PM
Seem that Can/Dynamite somehow manage to resurrect again, which is... good I guess... But I'm not too sure should I trust to put money on this product...:confused:

Anyway, I have Qs to ask you guys.

Is Dynamite use multicores to rendering, what missing in lite version vs full version? And has anyone try it on 9.5 yet?

Thanks all:)

jtdoepke
04-23-2008, 04:41 PM
The only wierd thing I found was that for some reason when I downloaded the plugin it didn't have the correct extension on it so I changed it from .plugin to .p

I tried that and now my computer interprets the plugin as a folder. :(

zapper1998
04-23-2008, 05:23 PM
Is Dynamite Dead or still Alive ????

Chuckpie
04-23-2008, 05:25 PM
The question has more than likely been ask but is the new version an upgrade for the previous version or do you have to purchase this version if you own the previous version?

alvin_cgi
04-23-2008, 06:15 PM
Isn't it too hard or takes too much of his time, just pop in here and type a few words, instead of let everyone wondering around... :grumpy:

jasonwestmas
04-23-2008, 06:39 PM
yes - forgot to specify that its the rendering that crashes...on XP Pro 32bit. LW9.3.1

jasonwestmas - what are you running on ?

I was running it on Vista 64 with the 32 bit version of 9.3.1.

jasonwestmas
04-23-2008, 06:40 PM
The question has more than likely been ask but is the new version an upgrade for the previous version or do you have to purchase this version if you own the previous version?

It's free to people who have already purchased a license for Dynamite.

dballesg
04-23-2008, 06:41 PM
Isn't it too hard or takes too much of his time, just pop in here and type a few words, instead of let everyone wondering around... :grumpy:

He is not the only developer that let you in the dark, I can name in another two developers at least that charge for their plugins and unless you put a hunting pack with guns after them, they really the DON'T do anything to update their software.

At the end for me, means I am think three thousand times at least to invest on ANY 3D soft! :( Sad but true.

David

OrvilleB
04-23-2008, 08:18 PM
I tried both the demo and lite version. It crashed both times when I rendered the scene.

calilifestyle
04-23-2008, 09:50 PM
Yeah i tried the lite. on the old lite version i never crashed. but i been crashing once in while now with 9.0 and 9.3.

KeystoneMike
04-24-2008, 10:40 PM
Seems like the Win32 version is broken. I've heard from Mac users and it seems to work for them. Not sure about the Win64 version. Makes you ask if he had any actually beta test for all the platforms he's supporting.

mav3rick
04-25-2008, 02:17 AM
well worley is also o silent ... tht mean he is dead?

jasonwestmas
04-25-2008, 09:47 AM
Is the fluid dynamics broken in all of your renders too? This is really odd. I would make sure you remove all of your old Dynamite files and start with fresh configs?

JamesCurtis
04-25-2008, 10:12 AM
I get critical error crash reports generated by LW9.5 beta with the 1.2 Lite [free] version if I try to use the Particles setting with an HV emitter! Haven't tried the 1.1 version though in a long while with Emitters.

PC 32 bit here

Qexit
04-25-2008, 10:20 AM
I get critical error crash reports generated by LW9.5 beta with the 1.2 Lite [free] version if I try to use the Particles setting with an HV emitter! Haven't tried the 1.1 version though in a long while with Emitters.

PC 32 bit hereEr James, I don't think you should be posting that report out here in the Public part of the forums. There is a restricted access forum for LW Beta crash reports.

JamesCurtis
04-25-2008, 11:44 PM
yeah, sorry about that.

erikals
04-26-2008, 03:02 AM
Everybody will be running 9.5 in a short while, so hope he takes it under concideration.