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View Full Version : Should Newtek increase in price w/ each new version



AbnRanger
02-10-2008, 07:14 PM
As Newtek nears completion of its core re-write of LW, and if they are able to add substantial new features to program (i.e., full-fledged Hair/Fur module, brand new Character Animation system, new Dynamics Engine,etc.), who here would have a problem if they began to incrementally increase the price with each full upgrade...eventually bringing it back closer to where it once was ($1995 USD)?

hrgiger
02-10-2008, 07:24 PM
I would have no problem with that IF it were warranted. They would have to show that progress is being made in it becoming an app worth paying that kind of money for. If they implement a solid animation workflow, remove some of the bottlenecks, and work on integrating the application more, I would be happy to pay more to upgrade my next version.

Steamthrower
02-10-2008, 07:39 PM
Keep it where it is.

If Newtek wants "new blood" to start using their software, legally, like students and freelancers, their current very affordable $900 price is oustanding.

RollerJesus
02-10-2008, 07:57 PM
I think the Newtek should put some serious thought into how much of the hobbyist market they would be alienating by increasing the cost of the software by that magnitude.

$2,000... Blender, here I come.

Titus
02-10-2008, 08:21 PM
Keep it where it is.

If Newtek wants "new blood" to start using their software, legally, like students and freelancers, their current very affordable $900 price is oustanding.

Actually, students (http://www.journeyed.com/itemDetail.asp?ItmNo=46801776F) have a discount price of $195.

In my town I have to pay 30% to 40% more of the official price.

Stooch
02-10-2008, 08:39 PM
I think that newtek is in the best position to decide prices. polls wont do anything.

Dodgy
02-10-2008, 08:45 PM
I'm with Stooch, it's really not going to change their minds about funding LW. If they need the money, they'll up the price...

AbnRanger
02-10-2008, 08:52 PM
They already bumped it up $100 since the initial release of 9.0. Nothing wrong with seeing how others feel about future increases, one way or the other.
It is Netwek's forum after all, and they do monitor it...I'm sure they'd gather something from it. How much relevance it has is indeed, for them to decide. I sometimes wonder if the price, while good for consumers, is not so good for the development of the program.

KevinL
02-10-2008, 10:37 PM
Please let the folks who work at and for Newtek decide pricing. This stuff of users piping up about increasing price is ridiculous. If Newtek decides to implement some of the features you think are make or break and it requires them to raise price, then let them justify/require/request/suggest a new pricing structure.

I for one liked the price decrease (even though I've paid dues since 4.0) and have never felt inclined to start begging a provider to raise their prices. Higher prices happen quite naturally without any prodding by the consumer in case you hadn't noticed.

If you feel you aren't working with a real player in the 3D app market because you didn't have to make a choice between a home or the software, by all means feel free to migrate to the price point of your choice.

Done,
Kevin :)

RedBull
02-10-2008, 11:24 PM
Lightwave is currently too expensive.... Sorry, but by the time you make LW worthwhile, Sasquatch, FPrime, Syflex, LiquidPack, etc, etc.....C4D, Maya and XSI and Houdini reallly don't look like bad places to be.

A decade a go that was acceptable, but now with newer more polished tools that actually play well with others, not half implemented tools like CC subpatches, or Modeler tools half integrated, Nodes that cannot display OGL.

The competition is more expensive, until you option LW to be comparable, and then LW looks overpriced by todays standards. Yes it is hard to make money in 3D.... :) When companies like DAZ are starting to compete with products at the $10 price range, good luck in re-rasing the LW price, after the decision was made to drop the price a few years back.

AbnRanger
02-10-2008, 11:43 PM
If development is slowed in part by the company operating on a shoestring budget (not saying they are, but they are competing against companies with bigger Dev. staffs) what's the problem with some customers/users voicing their opinion that they wouldn't have a coronary in the event Newtek bumped up the price...IF it will help put more development personnel on the job, and if it will get the additional tools they've been asking for into their hands quicker?
I remember talking to someone contracted by Autodesk about Combustion's development, and a re-occuring response was essentially...."Combustion's just too inexpensive to generate much development resources for a major re-write." Or in simpler terms, "You get what you pay for."
Why is that totally different in this case? How is it that we can keep asking for all these wiz-bang new features when their staff has to operate on a much smaller budget than before?

meshpig
02-11-2008, 12:40 AM
As Newtek nears completion of its core re-write of LW, and if they are able to add substantial new features to program (i.e., full-fledged Hair/Fur module, brand new Character Animation system, new Dynamics Engine,etc.), who here would have a problem if they began to incrementally increase the price with each full upgrade...eventually bringing it back closer to where it once was ($1995 USD)?


Blah! You're pulling a leg surely? Where does $1995 USD come from or is this some Republican lament on the current declination?

I appreciate your concern but if you want over-priced software you must know where you can get it?


m:)

lardbros
02-11-2008, 12:50 AM
Blah! You're pulling a leg surely? Where does $1995 USD come from or is this some Republican lament on the current declination?

I appreciate your concern but if you want over-priced software you must know where you can get it?


m:)

That was how much LW used to be back in the day... honestly... it really did. It was still one of the cheapest though!

prospector
02-11-2008, 01:22 AM
That's like going to the supermarket and telling the manager to raise the price of beans so we can have a prettier can.

meshpig
02-11-2008, 01:29 AM
That was how much LW used to be back in the day... honestly... it really did. It was still one of the cheapest though!

LB

I know, but it isn't really a relevant figure. I'd go along with the idea that booting the price of LW up @ today's $$ would make a simple do I spend now
yes/no go elsewhere.

m

AbnRanger
02-11-2008, 01:47 AM
That's like going to the supermarket and telling the manager to raise the price of beans so we can have a prettier can.I don't care if they send the upgrade CD in a paper sack...:D

AbnRanger
02-11-2008, 01:55 AM
Why all these inane polls?To see the pretty little bars travel from left to right...?:D

meshpig
02-11-2008, 03:13 AM
Why all these inane polls?

- Microsoft Excel spreadsheet?

m

Lightwolf
02-11-2008, 04:10 AM
I'd rather see a subscription based policy... but I'm pretty much alone in that sentiment ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Matt
02-11-2008, 04:17 AM
Clearly most people don't want to pay any more money than they have to, but I agree, let NewTek decide!

LAV
02-11-2008, 07:05 AM
That's like going to the supermarket and telling the manager to raise the price of beans so we can have a prettier can.

Agree. And that's not a correct market rule...
So?

Steamthrower
02-11-2008, 07:21 AM
I think that newtek is in the best position to decide prices. polls wont do anything.

Best point ever made!

Darth Mole
02-11-2008, 07:51 AM
If LW went subscription, I'd be gone in a heartbeat. As a mere part-time user, I would have no choice.

Titus
02-11-2008, 08:12 AM
It's a good way to drive away customers

And that's why nobody buys Maya or Max, right?

I don't like subscriptions neither but if your company is profitable, the price of your main software is the less of your concerns. At this moment I'm struggling finding LW generalists in my city.

For many studios there's a good logic to use different versions of Maya, if you have 3 modelers you buy the most basic version for them, and buy the expensive version for the artists who will need it.

Lightwolf
02-11-2008, 08:14 AM
Subscriptions suck. And the companies that use subscriptions often leave you out in the cold if you don't think they provided a feature set worth your money...
Unlike paying in advance for a set of features that may or may not be delivered at all... which nobody seems to complain about. ;)

Hm, 400€ for a new release and two years of updates in advance - or 200€ per year?


At least NewTek has to work for your money and will let you get the latest version at upgrade price, even if you skip versions you don't want/need.
Nore so ona sub based system. On the other hand they'd have little reason to hold back feature for a next major release ... or continue thinking in major/minor releases at all.
And looking at the fix they're in development wise it would match up quite well.

Subscriptions = extortion.
They take a lot of pressue out of development if done properly. Loads of advantages and the net sum would likely be the same for users and NT alike.
Your arguments remind me of the unifications threads.
Only because some subscription based apps are handled in a wierd way doesn't mean that the idea itself is bad.

Cheers,
Mike

Chris S. (Fez)
02-11-2008, 11:17 AM
Subscriptions essentially provide a discount for loyal customers and a steady source of development dollars. So I personally have no problem with subscriptions.

I am on a Max subscription and Autodesk has provided decent (but far from mindblowing) updates every October like clockwork. I use Max every day, so subscription makes financial sense.

Respectfully, a Newtek subscription program would be disastrous IMO. Despite all the 9.0 buzz about how the new team is laying the foundations that will allow faster updates etc., Lightwave has largely been lapped by the competition in many key areas.

JeffrySG
02-11-2008, 11:21 AM
I think that newtek is in the best position to decide prices. polls wont do anything.
:agree:

JeffrySG
02-11-2008, 11:22 AM
To see the pretty little bars travel from left to right...?:D
:lol:

Steamthrower
02-11-2008, 11:39 AM
Subscriptions essentially provide a discount for loyal customers and a steady source of development dollars. So I personally have no problem with subscriptions.

I am on a Max subscription and Autodesk has provided decent (but far from mindblowing) updates every October like clockwork. I use Max every day, so subscription makes financial sense.


Subscriptions are horrible.

I do not use Autodesk products because of their twisted ownership schemes. It's like you don't really own the product...and when trying to sell it you get into such a convoluted crapshoot that it's not worth the hassle.

animotion
02-11-2008, 11:39 AM
Yes, I think the price should be $67,017.43

its worth every penny.

Lightwolf
02-11-2008, 11:45 AM
How do you propose that would work then?

Lightwave the revisionless software that is simply perpetually updated with features? You buy in once and then it's a life time of subscriptions, let's say 200€/year just to keep it simple. If you drop out, you can resume subscribing again at any time by paying the fixed subscription price again for a year (minimum) of subscription. I think that would work for me :)

Maybe a bit more to buy yourself back in, but basically yes, that's the idea.


But let's say NewTek still needs major revisions to sell the program, because everyone else does it this way and innovating something like 3d software sales is a bad thing! :) What then? How can features then not be held back to slap on the box/ad for the next big release?

Why should they be. Release them to your user, advertise with them now or later.
That's a lot more honest than the trade show marketing about features for the next released which will be "released in a few weeks time" ... yeah, right ;) (Hey, I can say that, I develop as well :D ).

And for marketing purposes you could still slap the current year onto the release... erm, yeah, like Autodesk ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
02-11-2008, 11:51 AM
Subscriptions are horrible.

I do not use Autodesk products because of their twisted ownership schemes. It's like you don't really own the product...and when trying to sell it you get into such a convoluted crapshoot that it's not worth the hassle.
Hm, aren't you talking about two different things?
What does the ownership policy of Autodesk have to do with the subscription?

Cheers,
Mike

Steamthrower
02-11-2008, 12:01 PM
Talking about both, really. I hate both...

Titus
02-11-2008, 09:15 PM
Nice selective quoting there, please quote the whole sentence which was:



I didn't say anything about driving customers away in general, as clearly some people like/live with extortionist subscriptions that will make them buy in at full price again, should they skip subscriptions for a while.

Both business models (subscriptions and pay for the update you want) are OK if you get what you paid for, and this relies only on the software company (just ask people how much they waited for their already paid VT5). My point (not completely quoted) before was to question if you loose loyalty from your costumers with subscriptions, and I don't think this is the case of Maya and Max users.

The point of this thread is if you want an increase of price to get an increase of feature set/faster development cicles/more ice cream. A subscription allows a company to foresee the future budget and earnings, thus writing your feature set road for the next release. Some people in this thread seems to think NT can't promise a list of features, does the competition with their subscription model can?

Lightwolf
02-12-2008, 03:14 AM
Some people in this thread seems to think NT can't promise a list of features, does the competition with their subscription model can?I think it any case it is a matter of trust. Will the vendor deliver something that you'll need?
But hey, as long as people pre-order upgrades for LW I don't really see an issue here. They seem to be happy enough to part with their money without any direct benefit (except maybe a discount or some other piece of software thrown in).

Cheers,
Mike

bobakabob
02-12-2008, 06:21 AM
Please let the folks who work at and for Newtek decide pricing. This stuff of users piping up about increasing price is ridiculous. If Newtek decides to implement some of the features you think are make or break and it requires them to raise price, then let them justify/require/request/suggest a new pricing structure.

I for one liked the price decrease (even though I've paid dues since 4.0) and have never felt inclined to start begging a provider to raise their prices. Higher prices happen quite naturally without any prodding by the consumer in case you hadn't noticed.

If you feel you aren't working with a real player in the 3D app market because you didn't have to make a choice between a home or the software, by all means feel free to migrate to the price point of your choice.

Done,
Kevin :)

Well said.:agree:

guardonduty
02-12-2008, 08:37 AM
To let everyone in on a little secret. It's my prediction Zbrush will soon include ground breaking animation features and the rest that will..let's say...make it difficult for the competition. Newtek needs to continue it's focus on improving the product. Users will stay and new users will come.

meatycheesyboy
02-12-2008, 11:40 AM
Subscriptions are horrible.

I do not use Autodesk products because of their twisted ownership schemes. It's like you don't really own the product...

Isn't this the way alot of software has already gone? You don't own Windows, you essential rent the right to use it from Microsoft, a right they can take away at any time. Same thing with all Adobe products if I'm not mistaken.

Please excuse me if I am mistaken.

Steamthrower
02-12-2008, 11:47 AM
To let everyone in on a little secret. It's my prediction Zbrush will soon include ground breaking animation features and the rest that will..let's say...make it difficult for the competition. Newtek needs to continue it's focus on improving the product. Users will stay and new users will come.

Zbrush isn't even good to render in...surely animation won't happen next?

Steamthrower
02-12-2008, 11:51 AM
Isn't this the way alot of software has already gone? You don't own Windows, you essential rent the right to use it from Microsoft, a right they can take away at any time. Same thing with all Adobe products if I'm not mistaken.

Please excuse me if I am mistaken.

That's why I run on a Mac. But actually, if you buy a copy of XP, you can use it as long as you darn like and you can sell it to whomever you like at whatever price you want.

And about Adobe...I own Photoshop, Dreamweaver, and Flash...I bought them, and one of them I bought used. They're all genuine legal copies. If Adobe ever tries to "take them away", I'll let them have them...and go download some pirated version, because morally (if not legally) I still own a copy.

vadermanchild
02-12-2008, 11:55 AM
As Newtek nears completion of its core re-write of LW,

Are they nearing completion to their CORE re-write? Where did you find this info?

9.3 seems to be waaaaaaaaay off from that destination.

bobakabob
02-12-2008, 01:50 PM
"To let everyone in on a little secret. It's my prediction Zbrush will soon include ground breaking animation features and the rest that will..let's say...make it difficult for the competition. Newtek needs to continue it's focus on improving the product. Users will stay and new users will come."

Hmmm, why is it a secret? There are already limited ZBrush animation tools and anyone who's used the Transform tools can already see the potential. Sure it's made enormous strides in its evolution but as superb as ZB is, it still has a long way to go before it can substitute a comprehensive 3D app like Lightwave Maya or XSI. IMO I tend to see ZB as a glorious LW modelling / surfacing plugin with rendering as an optional (quality) extra.

"Zbrush isn't even good to render in...surely animation won't happen next?"

Check out the Pixologic forums and be amazed by the renders. Animation's on the horizon too but it will be some time away.

Steamthrower
02-12-2008, 02:20 PM
Right...when I first read that I was immediately befuddled and doubtful. That's like hearing an announcement that Mudbox or Silo was going to start supporting Ageia physic simulations or something. :D

AbnRanger
02-12-2008, 10:02 PM
To reinforce the point about additional funds=accelerated development, let's look at everyone's favorite (drumroll please)...Autodesk. They doubled the 3ds Max development team in the fall (had a good year financially)...6 months later they got done what otherwise would have taken a full year. Enter evidence exhibit A, members of the jury...a quote taken from at "The Area":
Posted by Ken Pimentel on 02/12 at 01:22 PM
"That does not sound familiar. Please remember that this is a six month release and it is very “rich” for a six month release. By doubling the dev team, we got almost a full release worth of work into it, but we’re still bringing the dev team up to speed. Yes, we know there is much more to do and I’m limited in telling you about the future."

Ken is the product manager at AD, and for what it's worth...nobody here is trying to dictate pricing levels to Newtek. I for one, however, don't mind Newtek knowing my perspective on the issue...just one consumer's P.O.V.
Many companies spend good money putting out surveys for customers and potential customers? Well, Newtek doesn't really have to do that much, do they...since they have threads like this to which they can anonymously read? This forum is one of their main sources of consumer feedback...and you're telling me to shut up, and not offer any feedback. To quote George Bush Sr..."Not gonna do it."
For me it's as simple as saying, as just one customer, I would be willing to pay more if it translates into faster development cycles...getting the features we've been waiting for out of the oven sooner. :)

prospector
02-12-2008, 11:35 PM
Where does Autodesk get their money?
Opening up their website I see no Max listed, I see no Maya listed.

I see AutoCad.

Can't find a product income breakdown, but I would suspect they are using some of that for Max and Maya R&D.
Newtek doesn't have that type of income to draw from and higher prices for software will lead to more cracked versions running around.
Who has more cracks being used
Photoshop or Max? Let's not get Lightwave onto that list.

RedBull
02-13-2008, 12:37 AM
Where does Autodesk get their money?
Opening up their website I see no Max listed, I see no Maya listed.

I see AutoCad.

Can't find a product income breakdown, but I would suspect they are using some of that for Max and Maya R&D.

I would of thought CAD would be a big earner for Autodesk, but in recent years their is a trend for CAD/Viz to really be moving to 3D software. (LWCAD, Vray, Kray etc) To give you an idea here is a little breakdown from their financial for last quarter.

"Revenue from our 2D Vertical and 3D products increased 22% and 32% respectively. 3D revenue now represents 24% of total quarterly revenue, its highest level ever. 3D still presents a significant growth opportunity, as 3D penetration of our customer base remained under 15%. Clearly 3D continues to bean important growth driver for the company, and our 2D Vertical solutions provide the easiest migration path for our customers to our 3D products and then on to digital prototyping."

"AutoCAD LT had an outstanding quarter, growing 35%. As we mentioned earlier, thechanges in our incentive programs has shifted reseller focus away from AutoCAD to our 2D Vertical and 3D products. As a result, AutoCAD revenue was flat, while AutoCAD 2D Vertical revenue increased 22%. We continue to believe that the most relevant measure of 2D performance, given our strategy, is the growth of all AutoCAD-based products in total, which grew 16%."

parm
02-13-2008, 12:52 AM
To reinforce the point about additional funds=accelerated development, let's look at everyone's favorite (drumroll please)...Autodesk. They doubled the 3ds Max development team in the fall (had a good year financially)...6 months later they got done what otherwise would have taken a full year. Enter evidence exhibit A, members of the jury...a quote taken from at "The Area":
Posted by Ken Pimentel on 02/12 at 01:22 PM
"That does not sound familiar. Please remember that this is a six month release and it is very “rich” for a six month release. By doubling the dev team, we got almost a full release worth of work into it, but we’re still bringing the dev team up to speed. Yes, we know there is much more to do and I’m limited in telling you about the future."

My opinion on this. Is that the way Newtek conducts it's business. Is none of my business.

That said. I'm curious to know why you think that a price increase, would lead to more sales.

Here's another quote from Ken Pimental. This time from the Max forum at CG Talk:


NOTE: Due to being forced to move to the latest SP of Visual Studio, plug-ins for 3ds Max 2008 will NOT work with 3ds Max 2009. All existiing 2008 plugins will have to be recompiled (there are no SDK changes - just a compiler change) in order for it to work with max 2009.

There's no doubt Autodesk know how to make money. But judging from the replies on the thread that this quote is from. A lot of their customers are unhappy, or at least apprehensive about this latest release announcement.

I can only imagine how subscription paying Viz users must feel right now.

AbnRanger
02-13-2008, 01:10 AM
That said. I'm curious to know why you think that a price increase, would lead to more sales.Please refer to my last post where I said that added resources=ACCELERATED DEVELOPMENT...

Who said a price increase=additional sales?

There's no doubt Autodesk know how to make money. But judging from the replies on the thread that this quote is from. A lot of their customers are unhappy, or at least apprehensive about this latest release announcement.Unhappy about them spliting Max into 2 versions...one that's ArchViz centric, and the other Entertainment. I don't have a problem with it. Seems to make sense to me. Give Viz users a sweet deal to upgrade to a much more powerful version than what they had, yet in future releases they don't have to pay for features they don't use in their industry...like NCloth or Fluids, etc.

I can only imagine how subscription paying Viz users must feel right now.Pretty good actually...getting alot more features than they had for just a very small upgrade cost.

prospector
02-13-2008, 01:50 AM
plug-ins for 3ds Max 2008 will NOT work with 3ds Max 2009.
I can just imagine the whining here if all plugins ceased to work from 1 ver to another :hey:

prospector
02-13-2008, 01:57 AM
Revenue from our 2D Vertical and 3D products increased 22% and 32% respectively.
that says nothing except it's growing
selling 100 copies last year and 122 copies this year is a 22% increase.

What is the INCOME of each.

Even tho CAD may be flat, if they STILL get a few hunnert million from it, they have a good cash cow to pull money from to go to their other divisions, which even tho %'s are up, could be losing money in that division.

RedBull
02-13-2008, 02:08 AM
that says nothing except it's growing
selling 100 copies last year and 122 copies this year is a 22% increase.


Well the fact that 3D now makes up for at least a quarter of their revenue, with only 15% market penetration, pretty much answers where the money is currently being made, and where it will be in the future.

kopperdrake
02-13-2008, 03:04 AM
I voted yes. If more money helps get more geek bums on seats to make my everyday work-tool's development quicker then I'd pay more. As simple as that.

hrgiger
02-13-2008, 03:43 AM
I have no doubt that if Newtek doubled their development team that updates would come twice as fast. However, I don't think Lightwave in it's current state warrants a $2,000 price tag. You can't just expect people to pay more in the hope that it will get better, you have to show them first what they're paying for. Besides, if they increase the price of Lightwave, I think they should do it gradually.

On a side note, I don't think Lightwave should go back to being a $2,000+ application. I think it should try to stay under $1,500. I think alienating possilby the next generation of non-professional users by pricing them out of a purchase would not be a good thing when currently they make up a large chunk of the userbase.

And I still think making 2 versions of Lightwave is the worse idea ever.

ben martin
02-13-2008, 06:44 AM
Yes, I think the price should be $67,017.43

its worth every penny.
Nhaaaaa... completly wrong!!!!
The correct price should be $67,017.44
That's how i see it and only when a decent CA and Modeler/Layout integration finally comes, then the new price shold be $67,017.45

I like geometric values! :hey:

kopperdrake
02-13-2008, 11:23 AM
I do agree with you hrgiger, I wouldn't pay that much for it at the moment in its current state, and it should never go as high as it used to be as the field has changed so much in the time since then. I just feel it is a *very* good deal at the moment, though I'd like to see changes coming a bit quicker than they have.

Saying all that, they're needing some big changes in this cycle so maybe after the 9 series of releases the changes from their point of view will be easier and quicker to implement (assuming they'll be mainly tweaking great tools we'll already have by then).

In which case, they can keep it as is and pull even more users in at this decent price-point in the future and with the new jaw-dropping tools I hope they're cooking up for us during this cycle :thumbsup:

bobakabob
02-13-2008, 12:29 PM
Newtek have always been very canny about their pricing and should be given credit as a small company for introducing 3D to a market consisting of hobbyists-freelancers-studios, taking on the big boys and bringing down the inflated prices of 3D apps.

Getting the balance right between investment and shifting units must be something they discuss every day. And its pretty obvious the moment they raise prices they'll lose a portion of their market share.

The Lux split definitely staggered LW's progress (a crying shame Modo is not Modeler despite its perplexing interface). Where Lightwave used to innovate (I'm old enough to remember the miracle of MetaNurbs way ahead of modelling in clunky old Max) it's currently playing catchup, with Blender breathing down its neck. Nevertheless recent quality developments in surfacing and rendering not to mention rock steady stability are reassuring and the dev team really do seem commited to delivering.

animotion
02-13-2008, 03:00 PM
posted by pagnozzi


"be seriously please, we are talking about how to increase the developing speed for a tool we need to work with. It should be fair for Newtek and for the users!!"

Ok, Ok, $67,017.48 is more like it.

This would only be serious if you actually had real say so. anyway I am using LW the way it is to do real work even at the current price.

NewTek has proven over and over again that these tools do not have to be so expensive in order to get polished professional results.

zapper1998
02-13-2008, 03:19 PM
Intersting Subject Barney, sure is Fred, you better get Wilma, Fred...

parm
02-14-2008, 12:50 AM
Please refer to my last post where I said that added resources=ACCELERATED DEVELOPMENT...

Who said a price increase=additional sales?............

Explain your hypotheses more clearly then. Resources from where? if not funded by the revenue generated from sales.


Many companies spend good money putting out surveys for customers and potential customers? Well, Newtek doesn't really have to do that much, do they...since they have threads like this to which they can anonymously read? This forum is one of their main sources of consumer feedback...and you're telling me to shut up, and not offer any feedback. To quote George Bush Sr..."Not gonna do it."

Well those surveys, (with all due respect), are a little bit more carefully conceived than this one. Their authors are in possession of certain facts and figures, that you are not. They are also are aware, of their clients specific requirements from such a survey.

No one is saying that you shouldn't offer feedback. But don't you think, we would all be better off. By giving the feedback that's actually been requested:
Bug reports, crash logs and feature requests. Isn't that much more likely, to translate into tangible benefits for the product?

Pavlov
02-14-2008, 03:45 PM
Beside the fact NT decides itself i think it can be useful (and for sure it wont harm) to know what users think about.
If more money means a better app in a shorter time, i'm all for a price increase. Using LW as a pro, price is not an issue, features are.

Paolo

rakker16mm
02-14-2008, 04:08 PM
I'm pretty sure NewTek will do the sensible thing and charge a price MOST of its customers can live with. That is how companies stay in business long term. I'm sure they are in the best position to know what that mark is and are constantly striving to hit it while still adding capability to the software. I feel I definitely got my money's on my last upgrade and I wish I had upgraded sooner.

One thing that people often forget is that once the software is written it is important to get as many people on the program as possible to help grow the market share. After all todays hobbyist or student may be tomorrow's professional. Besides the difference in profit per unit of product is often made up for by selling more units at a discount since the biggest investment would likely be in the writing of the software and not the packaging or shipping.

So thanks but I'll let NewTek do what they are good at and I'll keep using the software for as long as it remains my best option.

AbnRanger
02-14-2008, 04:43 PM
Explain your hypotheses more clearly then. Resources from where? if not funded by the revenue generated from sales. Why do I need to explain what was clearly stated in the intial question? It's not my fault that you didn't read it more carefully.
A little math quiz for you...when they dropped the price from $1995 to $795, how many additonal licenses do they now have to sell in order to maintain the same level of revenue?

No one is saying that you shouldn't offer feedback. But don't you think, we would all be better off. By giving the feedback that's actually been requested:Not necessarily...they can't read our minds, and they don't have any way of obtaining advanced knowledge that a large percentage of their customers would indeed be alright with them increasing the price (as HR Giger stated, gradually) if it meant that Newtek would put more code monkeys to work in order to get this next generation of LW out the door faster...not unless we volunteer the information.
A moderate price increase with LW 10 might hurt your feelings...but I doubt it hurt's the guys at Newtek one bit :D

hrgiger
02-14-2008, 04:43 PM
What they could do is raise the price of the software, but give more copies away as prizes for image or animation contests...

parm
02-14-2008, 06:00 PM
A little math quiz for you...when they dropped the price from $1995 to $795, how many additonal licenses do they now have to sell in order to maintain the same level of revenue?

Do you know the answer to that


A moderate price increase with LW 10 might hurt your feelings...but I doubt it hurt's the guys at Newtek one bit :D

Ha, very funny.

Look. Things cost what ever they cost. I'm completely neutral on the price, I already own a seat of Lightwave. I'll wait and see what's in LW10.

Lightwave is improving and becoming a stronger product all the time. Newtek may well increase the price. But it will be for their own reasons, and not with the provisos set by a few forum users.


Using LW as a pro, price is not an issue, features are.

So make feature requests and file bug reports. Somehow I don't think Newtek need our advice on how to run their business.

AbnRanger
02-14-2008, 07:44 PM
...Somehow I don't think Newtek need our advice on how to run their business.It's not advice, nor is anyone trying to dictate what NT's policy is. It's called bartering...ever heard of it? You know...a consumer offering to spend a bit more in order to get a bit more? Where's the dictation in that?

To use an analogy, let's say you go to your mechanic for warranty repairs on your vehicle (he's not making any money on it, but rather losing money). He tell's you it will be a week before he can even get to it and that you'd have to leave the vehicle or lose your place in line. You don't really have that kind of time, so you weigh your options. Do you take it down the street to a mechanic you don't know, and with whom it would cost you considerably more (it's not their warranty), or do you stick with the guy you know and trust...and see if a small bribe can convince him to make room for your vehicle much sooner? Follow me?
Now, imagine another customer overhearing your conversation, and says (in a thick New York accent...over h'eeeeer)"don't tell the guy what to do! It's his shop, he can do whatever he pleases!" :foreheads

You already mentioned that you'd be one of those that would :eek: :cursin: :bangwall: :stop: 8~ :2guns::newtek::thumbsdow if there was a price increase...OK. No problem...seems like half feel the way you do, and half somewhat the way I do. Nevertheless, Newtek moderators can see a cross section of roughly 100 forum member's P.O.V. on the issue and glean from it what they choose. Once again, nobody's telling Newtek what to do. Just letting them know that there's plenty of us who won't have a cow if they do :D
...provided that there are good reason for it.

digefxgrp
02-14-2008, 08:06 PM
The correct price should be $67,017.44

Back in '93 that's close to what we paid for a single seat of Alias Animator.
But I think that did include a full year of support. :phone_cal

rakker16mm
02-14-2008, 08:11 PM
A little math quiz for you...when they dropped the price from $1995 to $795, how many additonal licenses do they now have to sell in order to maintain the same level of revenue?

They need to sell roughly 2.5 times as many as they did before, but that is only part of the story. The original $795 purchase price represents only the initial investment and does not reflect purchases made later for other NewTek products and upgrades.

The lower price should probably be thought of as a loss leader to increase future revenue. After all it doesn't always pay to charge every penny the market will bear unless you only plan to be in business for the short term. I think NewTek's strategy is to give the biggest bang for the buck. That is always going to be a challenge when you have free products like Blender nipping at your heels.

They could charge more or less but in the end they will charge what they feel is the right amount.

parm
02-15-2008, 02:29 AM
It's not advice, nor is anyone trying to dictate what NT's policy is.

Look here Ab. You're using words like dictate, not me.

Look at your own initial post and at many subsequent posts by others. See the provisos attached to them. I just think it's a teeny bit inappropriate for customers to set those.

The reasons for price increases can be manifold. And some of them, may not translate into increased productivity, efficiency or new features.


It's called bartering...ever heard of it? You know...a consumer offering to spend a bit more in order to get a bit more?

Lol!

of course I have. It's the exchange of goods or services, without the use of money. :D I'm all for it :D

I think you mean haggling. Which I don't think you've quite got the hang of. Seeing as it is customary, for the buyer to beat the price down. While the vendor pitches the highest price possible.

I suspect though. That the business of software development and distribution. Is a little bit more sophisticated than that. More so than even car maintenance ;)



You already mentioned that you'd be one of those that would :eek: :cursin: :bangwall: :stop:... :2guns::newtek::thumbsdow if there was a price increase...OK.

You're mistaken.

If it gets much cheaper. I might start buying seats to give away as birthday presents. But I certainly wouldn't take it personally, if the price went up.

archijam
02-15-2008, 08:23 AM
I think the box should also get bigger with each version.

Can we add that to the poll?

geo_n
02-15-2008, 09:48 AM
Please refer to my last post where I said that added resources=ACCELERATED DEVELOPMENT...

Who said a price increase=additional sales?
Unhappy about them spliting Max into 2 versions...one that's ArchViz centric, and the other Entertainment. I don't have a problem with it. Seems to make sense to me. Give Viz users a sweet deal to upgrade to a much more powerful version than what they had, yet in future releases they don't have to pay for features they don't use in their industry...like NCloth or Fluids, etc.
Pretty good actually...getting alot more features than they had for just a very small upgrade cost.

I'm not sure that more money equals accelerated development. Mi cro so ft os cough cough.
About autodesk phasing out viz. You might not have a problem with it but many viz users do. Paying for the archi version that's as expensive as the standard version is not attractive to viz users and generally firms who pay less 1500US for a viz license compared to a max license, they all think its autodesks way of getting more money for essential a renamed viz product.

jbaudrand
02-16-2008, 12:06 PM
:/ I'm not a pro, but I can understand a higher price if features are higher too.

If "it's buy lw 10 AND critical plug in (worley, greenbriar, dynamite": forget me, I will buy Modo instead...

Stooch
02-17-2008, 01:09 PM
modo doesnt even have all the feature stock lw has, if you start throwing in plugins you will just sound retarded.

archijam
02-17-2008, 01:19 PM
Have to agree .. if LW 10 is just about plugin integration, that's a royal waste of time ..

jbaudrand
02-18-2008, 06:00 AM
sorry you didn't understand my point of view (english is not my native language)

If lw10 require the same amount of plug in than before to be easy to use, I'll prefer stay where I am with lw, and spend my money in modo.

Thomas M.
02-18-2008, 06:52 AM
People seem to go insane while waiting even for a BETA to arrive! There we go...

jburford
02-18-2008, 06:57 AM
As Newtek nears completion of its core re-write of LW, and if they are able to add substantial new features to program (i.e., full-fledged Hair/Fur module, brand new Character Animation system, new Dynamics Engine,etc.), who here would have a problem if they began to incrementally increase the price with each full upgrade...eventually bringing it back closer to where it once was ($1995 USD)?


You mean, sort of like Back to the Future??? As it was well before it was ever $1995, it did cost about what it does now and always did. The reason that they increased the price to that level was to be accepted into the "pro" market in the pc and mac world, where, unfortunately, back then if the product was so cheap, then it could not be professional nor good.

Was also why Maxon dumped the Amiga way back when... to be accepted by the "Pros". (Yes, would have been dumped in time due to lack of development and sales......)

I wish there was another choice to vote... and that being that I feel such Threads/Posts troublesome to say the least.

Newtek knows what they are doing and were they are going. Adding a new group of people to the team, all of a sudden, does not mean that there will be better or quicker development.

Currently, we were added an additional 4 members into our team. Management thought that this would automatically and immediatly increase our productivity.

The problem is that the 4 members are not trained, do not know the procedures and have different views and ideas on the work flow. So know, instead of us being able to complete the work, we have to explain the whole way what we are doing, why we are doing it this way and then argue our point of why this work flow is proper as apposed to other ways instead of getting the work done.....

This will put us numerous months back on multiple projects until they are up to speed and on "one sheet of music".

jbaudrand
02-27-2008, 05:06 AM
Thomas M.:
:D I don't wait any beta...

:) never bought 9.x yet, I tried the demo and prefer stay 8.5 for a while...

AmigaNewTek
02-27-2008, 05:34 AM
Good work. COngratulation to all involved in the development.
:)