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waly
02-10-2008, 12:15 PM
Hej lightwavers, with great pleasure i want to inform you all that in 17 February Kosovo will declare his independence. I want to thank to all states that gave their contribution, and support Kosova and Kosovar people from year 1999.

We are very great full to USA and other European countries that stopped ethnic cleansing and brought peace to my country.

Once again I want to thank USA people and government for their fully support during the process of independence of my country, this great day has finally arrived. We are counting the days to realize our dreams and aspirations, to become independent.

I want to invite all Kosova friends to join the celebration's of this great event.

You can use wikipedia for more detailed information.

Thanks

toby
02-10-2008, 08:53 PM
That's great news! Congratulations!

AbnRanger
02-10-2008, 08:57 PM
History in the making...Congratulations here as well. :)

iojabba
02-10-2008, 09:19 PM
Congratulations!

IMI
02-10-2008, 09:22 PM
That's great news, waly!
May your country and your people live long and prosper. :)

Lewis
02-11-2008, 01:03 AM
Huhh, that won't be EASY but i wish you every luck and congrats if it goes as planed.

DiedonD
02-11-2008, 08:17 AM
Huhh, that won't be EASY but i wish you every luck and congrats if it goes as planed.

Hello Lewis. Well, as you may already know, from your own countries experience, (thats kinda similar to ours BTW, both in our enemy that we have had, and the help that came from above :) ) , GREAT things are NEVER easy.

But however hard it may be, its time has finally arrived.

And, for the record. I wouldnt mind if someone decides to go to Waly's party rather than mine. I just want you to be happy and take part in this magnificient joyful event, thats all. In any party house it may be of your choosing.

jburford
02-11-2008, 08:20 AM
Congrats and wish that it goes well and turns out as one hopes!

Steamthrower
02-11-2008, 10:30 AM
Congratulations! I'm guessing you're partying right now...

Chris S. (Fez)
02-11-2008, 11:41 AM
Congrats! What kind of government will it be?

DiedonD
02-11-2008, 12:04 PM
Congrats! What kind of government will it be?

Democratic, parliamentary... And for the time beeing its both right and left in power! Imagine that! The President is Left Democratic League, and the Prime Minister is right, Democratic Party. Best of both worlds huh? :)

@Inigo07

I dont know weather Waly has started already. But me, here, Im still preparing everything, but Ill tell you. The atmosphere is tense, AND its getting even tenser, for the good of course. Alot complain at work. They cant focus. And I cant blame them. We are all fixated there, just how will it happen? Who will come? Will it all turn out alright?

You know, all those things that one should think if were to make a nation wide birthday.

greent
02-11-2008, 02:12 PM
well, since i come from 'opposite' side,...
i hope you'll find happiness you've been searching for. for you and your neighbours as well.
nevertheless, me too hope everything will turn out good for everyone.

Lewis
02-11-2008, 02:22 PM
Yes i do hope this time will be peacefully, wish you luck.

*Pete*
02-12-2008, 08:39 AM
good luck with the indepedence....but as Lewis, i suspect it may be difficult, looking at the Serbian unwillingness to let Kosovo to go.

How many people live in Kosovo btw?

DiedonD
02-12-2008, 09:21 AM
Yeah, it can only be difficult. Serbia isnt willing to let go. But theres nothing it can do about it, and it was never theirs to begin with anyway.

Also what I find strange these days. Is that, as strange as it may be. Im beginning to think that. Only the government is trying its futile attempts to do all it can to stop it.

Cause Ive begun to see more and more serbian people that mean nothing but the best to us. Ive met a doctor that once pleaded with me and said "Please take Kosova away!". I was shocked beyond belief. He told me that the majority is like that too. But its living in fear, even though they know that theres nothing it can benefit from all this, and the only beneficiery will be Rusia itself. I wasnt quite sure what he ment by that.

Then comes greent there. Greent, when you say it, It hits me in a totaly different level. As Im still not prepared to hear good things from you guys. But reality is reality, and Im glad it is so.

Why, I would probably get a heart attack If I were to hear anything good coming out of your PMs mouth. It wouldve only drove more suspicion in fact.

THe thinking over here is that. As long as he speaks all the bad he can, everything is in its order. If he suddenly changes overnight, something MAJORLY mustve happened! Thats how much Im used to hear nothing but the worse from up north. But perhaps your way too north huh greent?

Anyway, I didnt wanna speak in behalf of Waly on his thread, but apparently his very bussy. So I thank you guys too in a special way. About time it all came out straight.

DiedonD
02-12-2008, 09:24 AM
good luck with the indepedence....but as Lewis, i suspect it may be difficult, looking at the Serbian unwillingness to let Kosovo to go.

How many people live in Kosovo btw?

Thanks Pete. 2 and a half milion, maybe three. But, apparently all who live abroad will come for the feest. And that figure may even double.

Steamthrower
02-12-2008, 09:27 AM
So, besides being free, what other benefits are you going to have? Lower taxes? Less regulations?

And I think it's very interesting to note that the people, the every day people, on each side of a conflict are rarely antagonistic towards each other. It shows how democracy doesn't always really represent the intentions of the citizens.

waly
02-12-2008, 09:34 AM
good luck with the indepedence....but as Lewis, i suspect it may be difficult, looking at the Serbian unwillingness to let Kosovo to go.

How many people live in Kosovo btw?





Here in Kosova are nearly 2 million People living, 90% Albanians and 10% are minorities. There are nearly 5% Serb minority, other part of the percentage are made of Turks, Bosnians, Romans ... I don't like statistics so i might not be perfectly exact.

DiedonD
02-12-2008, 10:07 AM
1) So, besides being free, what other benefits are you going to have? Lower taxes? Less regulations?

2) And I think it's very interesting to note that the people, the every day people, on each side of a conflict are rarely antagonistic towards each other. It shows how democracy doesn't always really represent the intentions of the citizens.

1) Well beeing free is so good first of all :) . Thats the majour part of it, that perhaps you guys may take for granted. But appart from that, I think we will start from scratch, and "model" regulations and taxes in time, with trial and error kinda way.

The only advantage I see, is that, we have many examples of regulations thought and ready to be used for us, by other more "experienced" countries. Its like "modeling" with plenty of modeling DVD tuts in video from the best the world can offer. Which is better compared to what others may have gone through trying and erroring from scratch you know. We have all the worlds most democratic countries to look and possibly apply if we like. And, in time, we may develop some of our own, that perhaps some other newly independent country may apply, and so on and so fourth.

2) Right so Inigo. This was hell ever since the end of world war 1. And, if you follow the history line it goes all the way to some 2000 years before even.

You might trace back to all majour powers that occupied these areas, and it goes all the way to the Roman empire. Ilirians (Our ancestors) back then got occupied from them then, and as one power got crushed the other occupied immediately, and it went on for 2000 years, until the ottoman empire left away in 1914, immediately to be occupied from Serbia that got us by surprize too. Cause we thought the Ottoman empire wont allow it or something. No air for 2000 years till now, if you really look at it that way.

And now, this thing is that big cause 2000 years of yearning and building wish for freedom, has finally found an outlet. Thats why its gonna be such a grand feest.

Now picture this. Your having fun of your lifetime cause its done, free and independent. After all the time and lives spent for it, it is achieved. And you having the time of your life knowing that you were helped nobely by majour US and European powers. And as your partying joyfully you see someone that has been dressed like a US or European citizen, and is smiling with you!!
My Gosh I wouldnt be surprized if a mass would hold you up on their shoulders from joy. Cheering you all the way :) In that happines anyone may become a Genie, and ask you for your infinite wishes :) . And I intend to record it all somewhere :) . My God, it will be so good, I cant describe it. Of magnitude proportions :) :) :)

Its all set, just get over here somehow :)

waly
02-12-2008, 10:50 AM
I want to thank Diedon for keeping you guys inform. For this very important issue for my and my country I want to thank you guys too, for you curiousity.

And I want you to know that this has great meaning for my. Thanks guys

And i apologies for not replying that often, This days I'm too busy, and have great responsibilities. This days well have holidays, and I guess ill have much more time to share with you guys.

DiedonD
02-12-2008, 10:55 AM
Besides... With whom else would one rather celebraty this great event, than gifted, wise, talented friends I think you all here are :)

greent
02-12-2008, 11:23 AM
i think you got my message somehow wrong, but i dont' blame you, things were how they was, hope our relationships will change for better in some future times.
i wasn't saying anything more or different from what i wrote or think of this subject or something that i would tell you in pm's differently. have a nice time!

DiedonD
02-13-2008, 12:12 AM
i think you got my message somehow wrong, but i dont' blame you, things were how they was, hope our relationships will change for better in some future times.
i wasn't saying anything more or different from what i wrote or think of this subject or something that i would tell you in pm's differently. have a nice time!

Just so there are no mistudenrstandings between us Greent. You wanted us to be happy with our independence, right? And I said Im glad to hear that, especially from you, cause appart from you and the doctor, I dont hear that very often.

Thats all there is to it. Did I miss anything? Or where you saying something between the lines that I didnt get, and shouldve maybe?


Anywho. You can have a peak from above in google earth about Prizren. I think Bog went and saw where we are once. Its a fine mountanous region. Covered in snow unfortunately. And if you need rock textures theres nowhere else youll find em better.

THis reminds of of a sculpturist. This is one of my countryman artists, that carved stone into big beutiful gals. And he was all about rocks to much so, that he named his son Guri, an Albanian for Rock. But also a king at one time was named Guri, so thats there too. And he frequently comes here.

Now theres no easy way to get em. See you cant get it from google, cause theyre covered in snow. You need to be here and picture from sides, where the snow cant be.

Appart from fine textures, im thinking of skiing, BBQ in nature and all kinds of other things that you might wanna do.

Is my offer seducive enough :) . Come on people, some feedback. Whats holding you back there :) ?

Exception
02-13-2008, 08:57 AM
I sure wish I could come...
Congratulations everyone. I know you've been waiting for this a long time.

DiedonD
02-13-2008, 11:30 AM
Hey everybody. Here are the last remaining flags for Kosova, or Dardania.

Sadly mine mustve been eliminated along the process (Yes of course I applied :) )

There its attached the last remaining three. So am, what do you think?

Initially I liked the three striped one. Kinda simple and meaningful. Black and white its Albanian, while the white in the middle is of course, alas, freedom.

But then I read somewhere that the same flag but with the circly thing in the midle is an Icon of Dardania. Dardania is another tribe or part of Ilirians back then. So it would make sense to go for that one.

The one in the midle is pure nonsense really. I cant put my head to figure out how silly and obvious a flag can look like. Basically those 5 stars resemble people that live there. The big star for the majority of Albanians and the other 4 for the other minorities. This is just stupid, isnt it? What do you think? What If we receive more minorities, should we add another star there?

What do you guys think?

DiedonD
02-13-2008, 11:34 AM
I sure wish I could come...
Congratulations everyone. I know you've been waiting for this a long time.

Thanks alot Exception :) . You sure you cant get here? Send my regards to the you know who :) . Perhaps next year when the intensity of this all is more suitable for you guys, you could get here maybe?

Exception
02-13-2008, 11:50 AM
Thanks alot Exception :) . You sure you cant get here?

Yeah I have a thesis to complete here at the university :(


Send my regards to the you know who :).

Well I haven't spoken to her for years now :), I'm not sure if I should just to give your regards, haha!


Perhaps next year when the intensity of this all is more suitable for you guys, you could get here maybe?

Perhaps, keep us posted and if possible, I'll sure come.

*Pete*
02-13-2008, 12:09 PM
You might trace back to all majour powers that occupied these areas, and it goes all the way to the Roman empire. Ilirians (Our ancestors) back then got occupied from them then

History is intresting...Finnish and Hungarians speak a language that is far older than any nation in europe, and was most likely the main language spoken by tribes before the arrival of the indoeuropean languages.....but even if the language we finns and hungarians speak is old, we as people are not..we are of european heritage and the genetically "correct" people who spoke our languages a long time ago..are pretty much impossible to find, perhaps the eskimoes would be closest to them.

my point is that it really doesnt matter who owned what piece of land some amount of thousands of years ago, none of us are 100% descendants from them anyway and both the language and customs of that time would be unrecognisable today...

still, it doesnt really remove the right for indepedence for you...as after all, you kosovans/albanians/dardanians are the majority group of people in kosovo and the serbs the minority.

what ever the reasons behind the indepedence, i hope you have an unproblematic way to indepedence and a party that rocks the whole southern europe:thumbsup:

waly
02-13-2008, 04:45 PM
Flags huh... sincerely I dont like the chosen ones.

And you got right diedon the one with the stars looks more like an 5 star hotel logo located in Kosova, than a flag just stupid. And If we receive more minorities than well become a 6 or more stars hotel bigger standards isn't that cool, and this is the funny part.

DiedonD
02-14-2008, 12:55 AM
...none of us are 100% descendants from them anyway and both the language and customs of that time would be unrecognisable today...


I do get your point Pete. This "we were always here 2000 years ago" is a heavy comment isnt it. Thats the Pandora's Box. I mean, whichever other coutry was free 2000 years before and now sadly isnt, might just go ahead and say, "Hey, I wanna get independence". It just comes with alot of more meanings behind that word. It comes with change to the old ways. And your right that thats no mere cause for this independence. Its exactly because of those other things that we are considered to be a special case to independence.

To keep it "short", the northern part of Albania, latter dubbed Kosova was decided to be ripped from Albania after the Ottoman Empire demise. At Warsaw pact back then with Rusia's insistance, they had their way. I think its important to note that even back then the US was against it. And now its the US and Europes way, fortunately :) . So its the sense of like. Its started out with superpowers (Roman Empire), its ended with superpowers struggle in 1999 and now in 2008.

But Albanians are decendents of Ilirians thats for sure. And the language is as old as any other old european language, though it too has changed of course, over the years togeter with customs. We were always here. Surviving and dodging one superpower to another. Frankly I marvel how we too didnt got assimiliated or something. Dodging all those superpowers isnt easy you know. I guess Kanuns are to thank for that. We still have em today at rural areas mostly.

In anyway, your not coming? Ill make it worth while :) ...

*Pete*
02-14-2008, 02:49 PM
I just recently read about Albanian being a language that is older than the indoeuropean languages...i always thought it was a slavic/latin mix of a language.

as for 2000 years of past history and the a claim for the land...sadly, the poor native indians of america has a long time to wait before they get the land back ;) ..nah, seriously, it is good that you understod my point.
imho, a majority group of people in an area should theoretically also have the right to decide..it seems democratic, even though personally id prefer to see a world completely without nations or borders.

as for the party..no, id like to but i cant.
ill follow it on through the media though....it will be a historical event, no matter what if you will end up getting the indepedence or not at sunday.
I think Russia has the power to put a veto in the UN against the independence declaration....it will for sure be exiting and intresting weeks ahead before things settle down.
i quess you will need to fight for your rights...but nonviolent i hope.

Steamthrower
02-14-2008, 02:56 PM
sadly, the poor native indians of america has a long time to wait before they get the land back ;)

Actually, yeah, that little item right there has been used a lot and then overused. I mean, it's not like we slaughtered them or anything. Nobody landed in North America with the intent to kill anyone. Any reading of contemporary descriptions will show that it was really much tamer than is portrayed; the Indians weren't that aggressive and neither were the Europeans.

Actually the Indians didn't care about the land being used until this past century when they realised they could actually gain something by being "persecuted".

And anyway, it's not like they were doing anything with the land before we got it...just walking around shooting animals...

*Pete*
02-14-2008, 03:13 PM
And anyway, it's not like they were doing anything with the land before we got it...just walking around shooting animals...

Indians in USA maybe, but further down south the indian cultures were pretty advanced...

anyway, my point being that gone is gone and done is done...the indian natives and the european americans (like you) today have nothing to do with what was done a few hundred years ago...many large and small nations, people and civilisations have disapeared over time for different reasons...its the people today who matter, not people who lived in the past.

Steamthrower
02-14-2008, 03:25 PM
That's true. Though I think that people should have more of a respect for tradition that people do nowadays.

That's why Kosovo gaining independence is such a big deal...by being free from Communism they'll be able to have tradition. I know I'm overstating it but it's what it boils down to.

Exception
02-14-2008, 11:33 PM
by being free from Communism they'll be able to have tradition. I know I'm overstating it but it's what it boils down to.

I agree with most of what you're saying ... but when did communism rule out tradition?
Communism is a socio economic system, and like capitalism doesn't work when applied to the extreme. However it works very well in a pragmatic sense. Most societies nowadays have a very advanced level of socialist measures, to the better of their societies. there is nothing in the marxian idea of communism that rules out any kind of tradition.

The hatred towards communism has mostly been due to negative propaganda against it by capitalist societies. Pure capitalism is as faulty as pure communism. Extreme forms of economic regulation have never yielded any positive results, either way.

It is a very strange phenomenon that people can hate or love a socio-economic system. That's like loving or hating photon mapping verus light mapping. There's nothing ethical or philosophical to object against in either... just that their material executions can be flawed, corrupt or advantageous.

DiedonD
02-15-2008, 12:46 AM
@ *Pete*

Slavic!! Whoha! No, no, far from it. Its a unique language. When this language was here there were no slavs at all around.

And I too would like to see no borders. Especially South West of here ;)

Unite unite Europe. I so like the song. Yeah, its happening this Sunday, with or without Rusia, a pitty you cant come. @ Rusia government (Cause I mean, I dont know much its people) ... I say this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEfSnjL0pd8

@ Exception

Theres definitely great things in social governed countries. Like, if you dont have a job, you still get an income, social help. Its a governmental issue to provide a place to live and money :) . Something I always craved for. If I could just get some income from air like that, so that I would stop wasting my time doing all these menagerial things, and do my movies at peace. So definite some issues are great about it. Besides arent you Social-Democrats?

@ Inigo

Tradition, and kanuns are what kept us alive throughout Inigo. So we do havem, and its so in root and unchanged, that some now seem primitive. See what happened is that by applying all kinda force, it doesnt changes ones culture, for the contrary it sticks them even deeper to the soul, and makes it even more resistent to change and adapt. So it maintained its way throughout the years. You mustve seen some of it in TV. I know some of it they saw in Germany.

So what it boils down too is this. You are witnissing the rebirth of a nation. The one that NEVER forgets its friends! And the one that looks to the future to prosper, so much so, that it would be up to the future generations to decide weather to forgive attrocitive enemies even.

Now, youve played your part in its rebirth, and now you dont wanna pick the fruits of your labour? Come on... 3 days left. And its only narrowing you know.

Steamthrower
02-15-2008, 06:32 AM
The hatred towards communism has mostly been due to negative propaganda against it by capitalist societies. Pure capitalism is as faulty as pure communism. Extreme forms of economic regulation have never yielded any positive results, either way.

I don't like pure capitalism anymore than I do pure communism.

In an ideal, perfect world, communism would work. But the world's neither ideal nor perfect so it doesn't, just like capitalism doesn't.

*puts up my flame-retardant shield and waits for ensuing firebreath after what I'm about to say*

...and the best government is a parliamentary monarchy...

DiedonD
02-15-2008, 07:42 AM
I don't like pure capitalism anymore than I do pure communism.

In an ideal, perfect world, communism would work. But the world's neither ideal nor perfect so it doesn't, just like capitalism doesn't.

*puts up my flame-retardant shield and waits for ensuing firebreath after what I'm about to say*

...and the best government is a parliamentary monarchy...

Yeah thats plenty meaningful. If having Kings was a bad idea. They wouldnt have lasted for centuries. But why? Why is that better?

*Pete*
02-15-2008, 07:53 AM
by being free from Communism they'll be able to have tradition.

I could argue about capitalism destroying nice traditions as christmas, valentines, halloween (just to mention those that would be familiar to you)...they have lost a lot of the original intention and have become a commercial thing...


Diedond...sorry for mistaking your language for being slavic, it has a similiar sound to it though.


as for having kings...forget about it, they are a useless parasitical group of people that do not provide anything of importance to a society.
the best type of goverment is democracy, even if it is not perfect..but hey, its power to the people atleast, and the chance to change the "king" every 4 years if he is not worthy his position.

a question about the coming independence declaration...i heard on the radio that the serb minority (in kosovo) refuses to agree on that and threatens to break out of an indepedent kosovo and form an own, small serbian kosovo..
what exactly is that about?

DiedonD
02-16-2008, 12:52 AM
a question about the coming independence declaration...i heard on the radio that the serb minority (in kosovo) refuses to agree on that and threatens to break out of an indepedent kosovo and form an own, small serbian kosovo..
what exactly is that about?

Good question. Sorry Im late. Been bussy doing all the guest welcoming chores for my Independence day, that now :D :D :D we even have an hour, it will be on 15:00 on 17th of Febryary 2008 exactly :) :hey: :D :thumbsup:

Its like this. The last remaining hot spot is on the other side of the bridge in the city called Mitrovica, way north of Kosova. When NATO came in, all the hardliners and paramilitaries went away from fear of retaliation from UCK (KLA - Kosova Liberation Army). But, the problem is, that they all went there, to the northern part of Mitrovica, and were protected by the French Devision of NATO troops over there for a while. Who were fooled, to say the least, by thinking that they were mere refugees or so.

Ever since then they were saying and doing outrages things there. Like threatening Albanians that lived there, on the other side of the bridge, some even left their houses away.

So, its something like tha Berlin Wall. They had the wall, we have this bridge that seperates the city into two parts. It should go in time. So what they say just gets added in the list of all kinds of things they said over these 9 years. And theyll probably will continue to do so. Theyre more nacionalistic than even the extreemest right wing party in Serbia. But at least, all there is to it is just words. They dont have the power to do things they say. Not financially, and nowhere near millitarily.

But, theyre just there, something to be dealt with in time. While the real party is somewhere completely different, safe, and partying like crazy.

Hey, did I told you guys about this huge independence cake thats been working on 24 hours each day, for 6 days now? :) It will be a massive 1.5 ton cake, 25m2. A potential to Guenis records even. I dont know the ingredients, but I saw alot of hazelnut and nuts layer, that was shown for a few seconds.

Thats one of things thats been happening. All cities are doing things. One had a protraight of Adem Jashari (his a legendary figure, that stood against serb forces, heroically falling together with his family on his house, by tons of serb troops, that barely managed to have their way.), so in this portraight, hes saying "Bac, u kry" meaning "Fellow/bro, its over" .

Man, I so would like it if you were here. We would go and grab a handful of that cake, or perhaps through at one an other. My mind goes to all kindsa wild things :D

DiedonD
02-16-2008, 07:06 AM
I was under "preasure" today :) . Somehow my staff knew about my birthday today, that and independence beeing tomorow. I had to buy em a Baklava. Thats a desert, a bit heavy for some. And a talented installer came in and said "Im gonna bring my car and go max with my audio speakers, lets celebrate!!" I said, "Anything goes today :) " Off he went, so we started just like that. During working hours, right in front of the factory. But nobody cares these small things these days :)

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/4716/dsc00055ks2.th.jpg (http://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00055ks2.jpg)

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7580/dsc00059ch0.th.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00059ch0.jpg)

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1751/dsc00056lk8.th.jpg (http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00056lk8.jpg)

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9963/dsc00057cr8.th.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00057cr8.jpg)

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7852/dsc00061rf1.th.jpg (http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00061rf1.jpg)

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7470/dsc00062hu0.th.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00062hu0.jpg)

DiedonD
02-16-2008, 07:27 AM
As the party went on outside, I was called in for a customer. It just so happened, that he was a UCK veteran. And got very emotional about this day of celebration, perhaps even more than most of us here.

And as we agreed on making him windows and doors (PVC), we started chatting this and that. So he started telling me about the days he fought as a UCK soldier, a name he proudly says he was.

Back at 1999, the OSCE (Organisation for Security and Coorporation in Europe) was established to observe the situation in Kosova during wars. It wasnt a full out war yet, but they were there to see for themselves, and at best to negotiate a truce. The arrangement between the OSCE and the serbian troops was clear. They were not to shoot at OSCE. But as this veteran told me. Its a Besa that serbs always broke. Besa btw, is a very great and heavy albanian word. It means a promise basically, but at a very high level. If an albanian gives his Besa, that he WONT do something, or WILL do something, hes just bound at it, NO MATTER the cost, and as long as he is alive. So its hard to get a Besa out of an albanian, but if its done, it surpasses any high level legally contracted document. Its a spiritual thing even, as people wont sleep, and all life would be oriented around it.

So he said "Serbs always broke their Besa's". And once, he tells me, two pilots from Holand and Germany that worked for the OSCE were cought under fire, as serb troops where firing at them. He was there to save them. Silently, fought back for 4-5 hours against them, he says, until media came in, higher UCK officials and the such, and serb troops retreated. So with no need for attention an all, he silently got back to the shadowy mountains again.

I thought I should take him a picture. His fully back in ordinary life. I always though that the PTSD would never let you free. But he had humor, nicely spoke everything, and all that "normality" we all do have. He lives in Austria now.

Heres me with Mr. Hajredini. I was just telling a musician, the Agent that works for me, and a friend how to press the camera button, as he took the shot.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/5085/dsc00063cq0.th.jpg (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00063cq0.jpg)

Bog
02-16-2008, 09:34 AM
Congratulations, diedond and waly - it's a wonderful thing whenever a country and a people become free. The world needs more of it.

I wish I could come over and join the party, but I'm juggling five different contracts right now - I can't even get to the pub, let alone out of the country!

JohnMarchant
02-16-2008, 10:16 AM
Totally agree bog. Will be so much happier when europe is finally free as well. The democracy that alot of people fought and died for is slowly being erroded the the EU.

Its about time they gave every citizen in europe a right to vote on the whole EU and then they would realise the extent on the feeling within europe especially the richer countries that pay most for it, oh wait that would be democratic and we cant have that here :):).

I wish Kosovo all the best, they are going to need it in the future.

Regards, John

Exception
02-16-2008, 05:20 PM
...and the best government is a parliamentary monarchy...

Even better: a benevolent dictatorship :)

*Pete*
02-17-2008, 03:26 AM
Even better: a benevolent dictatorship :)

True...but it takes a certain type of a personality to become a dictator so this seems to be impossible as well.

how about Newtek as the administrative goverment?...Jay as president and Chuck as prime minister, regular free updates a couple times a year and the plans for the nation well hidden from public/enemy eyes and ears :D

they did add a beer shader for LW, which is promising for any population, free beer when you want to have it and where you want to have it, free of charge :thumbsup:

DiedonD
02-17-2008, 03:36 AM
Thanks Mark, John :)

We went to an Italian restaurant yesterday. Both for my birthday and independence. My treat.

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/184/dsc00064et9.th.jpg (http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00064et9.jpg)

And the one on the right is my Bagjanak That would be, the wifes sisters husband. These kinda relations are greatly highlighted here. Basically all sisters husbands know each other, and should get along fine no matter the personality. Pretty talkactive. Had alota fun. Heres us, goofing around. Celebrating it all with Cappuchino Caffe's.

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/1231/dsc00068zv3.th.jpg (http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00068zv3.jpg)

Today I went out. Its a matter of hours now. Not a shop breathing. All kinda tearbreaking moments recalled from TV. They went through it all. Now its talking about the time when the US threatened that if the serbs dont sign the peace treaty, they shouldnt expect that its a blof. And it goes on...

Along came Waly to show his work on our movie that we are working on. He barely managed to drive by. All roads are blocked, and a policeman told him with a last warning, that there was only one temporarily working road for him to get here. I wonder how you got back though, Waly? :)

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/2223/dsc00069df3.th.jpg (http://img352.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00069df3.jpg)

Heres me wearing our traditional hat. Nowhere else you can find this hat. Its so powerful perceptually. It can make anyone look like an albanian. I was planing to give you all one.

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/3941/dsc00070yq8.th.jpg (http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00070yq8.jpg)

And heres my son, all traditional wearings.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/6970/photo0002ip0.th.jpg (http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo0002ip0.jpg)

Ohhh its geting tenser. Theyve opened up an emergency session to be held on 15:00 on the capital. Where the parlament will declare independence. It should be over at around 17:00 or 18:00 hours. Then.... It all will break loose. Ill keep you post it as much as i can. It ends today at 23:00 with firecrackers and all kindsa muscial shows.

This all will start again tomorow, where all friendly and neutral countries will start accepting us. When will still be glued to the TV . Im so emotional right now. I sure would love to share it with you in person. I hope the elumination of me is getting through...

Bog
02-17-2008, 06:18 AM
Grinnin' like a loon just reading that, diedond. As so much of our daily news is the world getting less free, with cameras spawning all over the place and civil liberties getting curtailed left and right, seeing a country becoming free is like a ray of light in the darkness.

Bloody marvellous :D

Kuzey
02-17-2008, 07:35 AM
I had to buy em a Baklava. Thats a desert, a bit heavy for some.


Ahhhh....Baklava I haven't made some for a long time now :D

Congratulations on the birthday and off course independence...good timing :thumbsup:

Kuzey

waly
02-17-2008, 08:07 AM
Kosovo's parliamentarians overwhelmingly vote to declare independence from Serbia in an historic session from this moment on Kosova is free democratic and sovereign country.


Well newer forget the contributions of America and Europe thanks.

DiedonD
02-17-2008, 08:35 AM
And it happened!!! I always wanted to say this.

Hello wonderful free and independent countries of the world, Im a Kosovar Albanian, and Im proud and happy to be here :)

I went for a half an hour out.

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4711/dsc00071xo1.th.jpg (http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00071xo1.jpg)

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/6009/dsc00073xj2.th.jpg (http://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00073xj2.jpg)

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/2994/dsc00075pt8.th.jpg (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00075pt8.jpg)

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/5262/dsc00076dw1.th.jpg (http://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00076dw1.jpg)

And some europeans happened to be there .... :) Brave ones that ruthlessly pushed evil away. (NATO Troops - German are in our area)

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/1151/dsc00077zy8.th.jpg (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00077zy8.jpg)

It was below zero. And man your ears froze litterarily. And moving near the river, the wind intensified the weather according to its intensity. So it went way lower when it was most windy. AND IT JUST COULDNT POSSIBLY GET WARMER!!!!

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3600/dsc00080bi9.th.jpg (http://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00080bi9.jpg)

And came just in time to see Hashim Thaqi, the Prime Minister as he was starting to say it all, ending with a beutiful holy sentense...

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/8281/dsc00081sp0.th.jpg (http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00081sp0.jpg)

...WE HEREBY DECLARE INDEPENDENCE...

My grandpa started weeping. "This is what we were waiting for....!! "

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/1226/dsc00083yu2.th.jpg (http://img264.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00083yu2.jpg)

And it got too emotional...Sorry.... I love you all right now...Ill go on a bit later...

DiedonD
02-17-2008, 09:21 AM
They just released white pigeons.... All kindsa flags together with our own. It seems its the blue one. Kosovar map there, with six stars yellow, in a blue background. The mayor made his way to the historical place of Prizrens League.... Made a speech, congratulating the historic event.

There will be a symphony later on, and fireworks at 23:00...

DiedonD
02-17-2008, 09:28 AM
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8803/dsc00084kd0.th.jpg (http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00084kd0.jpg)

tyrot
02-17-2008, 10:14 AM
DEAREST FRIEND

how did i overlook this thread..I was in NATO force we simply served for better Kosovo..and i am SO happy that you are independent...you are in our hearts .... And never forget ..if you guys need us once more...we will be there ...and you know that :)

BEST

DogBoy
02-17-2008, 10:48 AM
great news, congratulations. Sorry i couldn't be there to share it with you.

pixelranger
02-17-2008, 12:20 PM
CONGRATULATIONS, diedond and all kosovar albanians. All the best wishes for a peaceful and happy future for all of you. There's a big party for you here in Oslo as well. Much love from Norway!!

akademus
02-17-2008, 02:50 PM
In 1389 Serbian army fought Turkish empire to protect Europe. Bells of Notre Dame in Paris rang in celebration for them stopping the evil of taking the old lady Europe.

Europe thanked them by taking that same land they fought on from them.

There were no Albanians nor "kosovars" present there whatsoever.

wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kosovo

AbnRanger
02-17-2008, 07:23 PM
There were no Albanians nor "kosovars" present there whatsoever.There were no "Americans" on this continent either....so what's your stupid point? Trying to pee on someone's literal parade...swell guy you are.

AbnRanger
02-17-2008, 07:28 PM
Congrats again Waly and Diedond...we have grown so accustomed to taking our independence for granted, it's hard to imagine how great this must be for you and your countrymen. :boogiedow

DiedonD
02-18-2008, 01:51 AM
@ Tyrot

About time you steped in man. Thanks so much. Turkish forces are here too, their flags all over too : )

@Dogboy

Yeah, well we spoke. And I understand. Some other time then : )

@Pixelranger

Oh really! Yeah Ive seen alot Albanians in US and all over the world, celebrating : ) Well, if you couldnt get here, then we got to you I suppose LOL

@Akademus

I told you guys to stay away from Wikipedia. Its not made of true historians. Anyone can just get in there and speak of someone elses country. And since its temporarily flooded with them serbs, you get all kinda nonsense like that. Simply put, we were always here, and 1389 is to soon. You need to go way back and you still find us here. Turks and serbs fought on our land.

Besides, the site, was even worse before. When I first saw it, there was no mention of Ilirians beeing there even, imagine that. I left it with it beeing mentioned at least. I dont know if it was changed by now, but those are our ancesters see, ant they were always here.

@AbnRanger

Thanks Don. Oh its a neverending joyful experience. I think I should note that, beeing constantly joyful, gets to you. I dont recall EVER sleeping as relaxing and as deep as I did yesterday :thumbsup: .

The symphony was excellent. Later on, came the feest.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/7377/dsc00086ql3.th.jpg (http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00086ql3.jpg)

And then the fireworks, we had some of our own. The land was icy cold, no way to make holes into. So am... I improvized : )

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9691/dsc00090gs2.th.jpg (http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00090gs2.jpg)

Thats my aunts grandson

Well, it worked at least : )

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/7280/dsc00093gw8.th.jpg (http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00093gw8.jpg)

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1174/dsc00092hf9.th.jpg (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00092hf9.jpg)

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9302/dsc00091ew5.th.jpg (http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00091ew5.jpg)

But, naturally couldnt beat the ones organized from my... erm... Country : ) (Which reminds me of some other parades I forgot to mention. One kid was holding a big card which wrote "I have a country too now" ).

I couldnt catch fireworks well enough though, and by the time I found a good spot it was at its ending phase.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2226/dsc00096ux4.th.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00096ux4.jpg)

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/9885/dsc00097gu0.th.jpg (http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00097gu0.jpg)

They also carried a 3000m long red flag yesterday. From Martyrs city of Landovica, all the way to the Prizrens League.

And today came the long awaited Independence Cake.

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3739/dsc00098pl9.th.jpg (http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00098pl9.jpg)

Its 2 tons, 200 meteres wide, some 20 thousand eggs were used, and the organizer said that he was glad that it didnt take too much time for it to be realized, just "7 days 24 hours non stop" he says 8~

The Airport is packed with tons of people. Journalists, Albanians, Turks and all kinda people that are now returning back.

So... It was awsome, I am unable to put it all in words. I hope Ive merely managed to represent it all in my beloved forum. Thanks for beeing here, thanks for listening. I wish you back all the best. For the record, I went through it all like a real man. Not a tear broke from my left eye. But I dont know what was wrong with my right one. I kept wiping my chin each time I came here to post my joy. And Im happy you were here at least. Next year though, make it in person, ok?

waly
02-18-2008, 07:34 AM
Congrats again Waly and Diedond...we have grown so accustomed to taking our independence for granted, it's hard to imagine how great this must be for you and your countrymen. :boogiedow


Thanks AbnRanger.

I have some great news, American gov. declared that USA recognize Kosova as a free and sovereign State.

As always USA is a leader thanks USA.

And we are expecting the same thing from the european countries too.

Chris S. (Fez)
02-18-2008, 08:37 AM
Your country is largely composed of secular Muslims, correct? Is there any pressure from orthodox groups to incorporate elements of Shariah law?

Steamthrower
02-18-2008, 08:46 AM
Congratulations all over there! Keep on partying, looks like you are having fun.

DiedonD
02-18-2008, 09:23 AM
Your country is largely composed of secular Muslims, correct? Is there any pressure from orthodox groups to incorporate elements of Shariah law?

Hey Chris. We are muslims. But not to the Shariah extent. European muslims Chris. Greatly different. We are more concerned with the historyline right now, cause it is a historic moment. Though its a major chosen religion. Its not to an extreem extent, and besides theres also Catholic albanians, Jewish albanians, even orthodox christianity (Slavic Christianity) albanians.

Ilirians believed in many Gods. God of the Sun, God of Sea, and so on. Now, whomever "passthrough" here. Left his religion. Since the Ottoman empire was the last one, then its majorly muslim for now. Its not rooted for most is what Im saying.

Steamthrower
02-18-2008, 09:28 AM
Diedond, what's the tension like between the Islamics, the Catholics, the Orthodox, and the Jewish peoples? Do they get along fairly well? I suspect that being "free together" creates a sort of bond, but I also can't help but suspect that the Muslims get along well with the folks over at the cathedral.

*Pete*
02-18-2008, 10:00 AM
There are many examples of nations where a majority of muslims and a minority of christians/jews live peacefully with eachother.
an example nation that i can think about right now would be Turkey, Lebanon has also a large christian population but possibly the jews would be less popular there, but im not too sure about the details.

what i do know though, that religion by itself is not a problem...but politics with religious preferance can create problems.

Diedond, first day in a free nation...congratulations.
it seems as most nations will accept Kosovo as indepedent, but in the case of some it may take some time....but i really doubt that your indepedence will be taken away from you, so congratulations for achieving it:D

akademus
02-18-2008, 10:08 AM
I still do not see how this fit into graphics related forum???
And how this goes under LW community???

Or we are going to discuss politics from now on?

I call for administrator to review this thread and probably lock it because this is ongoing political battle and has no place in a forum like this.

Steamthrower
02-18-2008, 10:21 AM
Um. No one's fighting? We're all happily discussing Diedond's and Waly's newfound freedom. Is this offensive?

akademus
02-18-2008, 10:46 AM
The only one having an issue seems to be you. I suggest that you simply ignore the topic and move on. Let's be friendly and let these people enjoy their new independence. It's not something that happens every day. I see no ongoing political battle, unless you start one.

And the entire Serbian, Russian and Greek population. This is a political and religious matter between Serbs and Albanians, between Christians and Muslims and there are many countries (Spain, Greece, Russia and so on...) that do not and will not recognize self proclaimed independence of Kosovo which defies United Nations resolutions.

Newtek moderation policy forbids such topics as they do not have place in graphic related forums.

thanks

Steamthrower
02-18-2008, 10:51 AM
thanks

Well, thanks to you for being Mr. Moderator. We all appreciate it very much.

akademus
02-18-2008, 10:54 AM
In fact, none of the surrounding Balkan countries will recognize it because they all know so well what trouble Kosovo actually is.

jburford
02-18-2008, 11:00 AM
Congrats, and lots of luck and well wishes on the work ahead.

Hey, on the Flag, adopt the Texas Flag, it is pretty cool! ;-)

Just call it the Star of Kosovo then.

jburford
02-18-2008, 11:02 AM
And the entire Serbian, Russian and Greek population. This is a political and religious matter between Serbs and Albanians, between Christians and Muslims and there are many countries (Spain, Greece, Russia and so on...) that do not and will not recognize self proclaimed independence of Kosovo which defies United Nations resolutions.

Newtek moderation policy forbids such topics as they do not have place in graphic related forums.

thanks


dang, where were you during the entire Clima Change Thread???? That one should have been shut down by Newtek, it got nasty....

AbnRanger
02-18-2008, 11:05 AM
And the entire Serbian, Russian and Greek population. This is a political and religious matter between Serbs and Albanians, between Christians and Muslims and there are many countries (Spain, Greece, Russia and so on...) that do not and will not recognize self proclaimed independence of Kosovo which defies United Nations resolutions.

Newtek moderation policy forbids such topics as they do not have place in graphic related forums.

thanksIt's a COMMUNITY forum and there are plenty other LW specific forum titles that may be your cup of tea...like feature requests, tipNtricks, etc. These guys are part of this community, and aren't trying to stir up any sort of trouble. On the other hand, I see that you have a Russian name, and that pretty much tells me what well you're drawing water from. Explains why your trying to play the role of trouble-maker here.
As the old addage goes, "This is an A&B conversation; please C your way out of it...Ba' Bye:neener:

akademus
02-18-2008, 11:09 AM
They will be part of the community when they actually buy the software and support it (which I seriously dub, knowing where they come from).

But, the fact is there are other sides in the whole Kosovo story.

btw it's not a Russian name ;)

tyrot
02-18-2008, 11:13 AM
dear akademus

first i told this earlier , in Kosovo there was bloodshed on the streets, the pain, suffering, war simply swept the face of humanity there... I know i was there... So i understand Diedon and other users who lives there ..i share they joy...

if you have problem with this innocent joy you are just a pathetic human. I would take you to streets that simply smell DEATH of innocent children...destroyed homes,...

but because you are just F A R T I N G from your very seat it will be hard for you to understand what s going on there..

Yes this is a VERY SEVERE PERSONAL attack..

Just try to share the Joy or STFU...Or do you want to be Fastest Second Person in the world ...because i have seen first one in Kosovo...he was running...away from a missile... :) or was it you ...:)



BEST

AbnRanger
02-18-2008, 11:17 AM
...and there are many countries (Spain, Greece, Russia and so on...) that do not and will not recognize self proclaimed independence of Kosovo which defies United Nations resolutions. It really doesn't matter if Russia, Serbia and a few other countries doesn't reckognize Kosova...they aren't running anything in Kosova, and that's what REALLY matters!
What's more, it's not like those disenting countries carry enough economic clout in the world to "Put the Genie back into the Bottle," so to speak. Kosova is a free republic, and there isn't anything you can do about it.

akademus
02-18-2008, 11:19 AM
I lived through the war in Bosnia and I DO KNOW the smell of burning bodies, you dum ***.


dear akademus

first i told this earlier , in Kosovo there was bloodshed on the streets, the pain, suffering, war simply swept the face of humanity there... I know i was there... So i understand Diedon and other users who lives there ..i share they joy...

if you have problem with this innocent joy you are just a pathetic human. I would take you to streets that simply smell DEATH of innocent children...destroyed homes,...

but because you are just F A R T I N G from your very seat it will be hard for you to understand what s going on there..

Yes this is a VERY SEVERE PERSONAL attack..

Just try to share the Joy or STFU...Or do you want to be Fastest Second Person in the world ...because i have seen first one in Kosovo...he was running...away from a missile... :) or was it you ...:)



BEST

tyrot
02-18-2008, 11:22 AM
dear akademus

good ...so what is your problem exactly? do you like to smell burning flesh again ?

we (Nato) went there for peace and got one. Now people are celebrating...IF something happens, Nato will go there again.. So is that what you want?

best

akademus
02-18-2008, 11:23 AM
dear tyrot,

that is not good

Steamthrower
02-18-2008, 11:46 AM
Akademus, you do realise you're disrupting a previously happy little thread?

Chris S. (Fez)
02-18-2008, 11:54 AM
There are many examples of nations where a majority of muslims and a minority of christians/jews live peacefully with eachother.
an example nation that i can think about right now would be Turkey, Lebanon

After researching the subject for the past few hours, I am not so sure.

Here are just a few links suggesting christian-persecution is present in Kosovo (Christian persecution in Turkey and Lebanon also seems prevalent, but I will withhold those links):

http://www.kosovo.net/destruction.html

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=\SpecialReports\archiv e\200508\SPE20050815a.html

http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Printable.aspx?GUID=C2359B8E-AF9B-4165-9D9C-14AA2E151A6A

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/017503.php

http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/kosovo.htm

Can this all be discounted as propoganda? That is an honest question. Please remember I have absolutely no political or personal investment in Kosovo. The little I know about the situation I know from Google.

In any case, now that I am somewhat aware of the controversy, I'm thinking this subject really is probably too politically volatile for these forums. For instance, there are many suggesting that Kosovo's independence empowers jihadists. Indeed, what happens when the clearly discontent "European muslims" rioting in Paris decide to establish their own geographical boundaries and rule of law? Should they be granted independence?

Sincere congratulations on your independence, but I think you might agree that those links above are disturbing for an uninformed outsider. I will now research the pro-independence side and see if I can find similar propaganda.

umstitch
02-18-2008, 12:04 PM
..no idea what this has to do with lightwave.

..there are plenty of forums on the interweb for political differences to be exploded...why here?

..if you must, at least try to put some balanced points about the situation.

..kosovars are celebrating, serbs are protesting...

akademus
02-18-2008, 12:21 PM
Unfortunately, there are many Christian churches burnt there. Some of dating more than 600 years.
Ilirians turned muslim after Turkish invasion in 14th century. They were Cristian before. They lived in southern territories of todays Albania.
In WWII there where more than 50% Serbs in region of Kosovo and Metohia. Now there's less than 5%. After they committed "ethnical cleansing". On whom, themselves? In past 10 years more than 100.000 Serbs left Kosovo or moved to northern parts it. Why is that?
As opposed to that there is about 100.000 Albanians living in Belgrade, capitol of Serbia quite hapilly.
About half of todays Albanians in Kosovo are younger than 25 years. Meaning they are intentionally breed in.

I Wikipedia is no good check other sources.

I'm off to work now. See you later.

*Pete*
02-18-2008, 12:24 PM
btw it's not a Russian name ;)

true...russians rarely have "-nic" at the end of the name, so your almost for sure a part of the slavic population of ex-yugoslavia, your mentioning bosnia and considering your emotions against kosovos indepedence, id quess your originally a bosnian serb, or perhaps, but less likely a bosnian croat.

those nations who are still refusing to accept the indepedence of kosovo, are doing so mostly of own interest, not legal reasons or care of Serbian intrests.

the greeks and cypriots risk having to give the turkish cypriots an indepedent nation, the russians risk the same with chechnya, spain risks it with the baskian territories and eventually even with catalonya...all selfish reasons more than a true support of the Serbian rights.


Chris S: yes, it is true that there are tensions between different religious groups...but you have to remember that just recently there was a war and ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, which is just as much of a reason for the destruction of christian (serb) symbols and persecuting the christian (serb) minority.
while i in no way accept such acts, i do not think it is religious as much as it is political.

further back in history..muslims have been known to be far more generous towards opposing beliefs (jews and christians specialy) than christians and jews have been towards muslims.
things have changed a lot during the last 60-70 years, but the changes have followed changes in politics more than changes within the religions.

Lebanon actually has a minority of christians getting an unproportionally large place within the goverment, despite of being a muslim nation.
Turkey has large presence of christians and jews, and the biggest problems they have are against other muslims, the Kurds mainly, who like the kosovars are looking for an indepedent nation on Iraq, Iran and Turkish territory.

Steamthrower
02-18-2008, 12:30 PM
further back in history..muslims have been known to be far more generous towards opposing beliefs (jews and christians specialy) than christians and jews have been towards muslims.

Over 2 million Europeans were enslaved by Muslims from Africa during the Middle Ages. I'd have to disagree there. Though there was a lot of unwarranted conflict on both sides, Muslims tend to take the aggressive side.

Remember, there are no Christian extremist groups bombing buildings in Syria or Egypt or Saudi Arabia...that I'm aware of.

EDIT: Make that 1 million Europeans. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/mar/11/highereducation.books

*Pete*
02-18-2008, 12:42 PM
During the same time period as the Jews were banned from running business or owning pretty much anything in Europe, Jews were often to be found among high goverment administrative positions in the middle east, as advisors, scientists, scholars...

As for Muslims stealing 1 million europeans, europeans emptied Africa from 6+ million Africans.
while the African slaves stayed as slaves for generations, European (and other) slaves in the middle east had the chance to regain the freedom, and many even returned to europe as wealthy men.

One of the biggest purposes for the million europeans stolen from europe was to create the elite special forces among muslim armies (either saracen or janisary), they muslims demanded children as a part of a taxation system in europe, it was well regulated and they never took the only child in the family...and they compensated the family very well economically with taxcuts and so on...its even reported that many families wanted to give the children away as it was so lucrative.

and again...many of the soldiers (ex-abducted children) did return to europe or continued a free life in the middle east after the military career (in which they also could gain high positions).

Muslims arent that bad as we are...historically seen, even if todays events portray them as bloodthirsty savages.

Chris S. (Fez)
02-18-2008, 01:10 PM
Muslims arent that bad as we are...historically seen, even if todays events portray them as bloodthirsty savages.

From a purely historical standpoint, I believe both Muslims and Europeans are equally despicable. Accordingly, I think defending Muslim behavior with references to moral equivalency should only apply to how MODERN Muslim cultures act relative to the rest of humanity.

For instance, the Spanish Inquisition was indeed dedicated to spreading Catholicism by force. But that was hundreds of years ago. Today there is no Catholic equivalent to violent Islamic Jihad...which somehow still thrives in modern Muslim cultures and countries.

umstitch
02-18-2008, 01:30 PM
Today there is no Catholic equivalent to violent Islamic Jihad...which somehow still thrives in modern Muslim cultures and countries.

..well thats about as misleading as it gets..

..current US/UK aggressions are seen by millions around the world as imperialist adventures akin to the crusades ages ago..doesnt matter whether its catholic or some other christian denomination..Tony Blair visited the pope and then "converted" himself to Catholicism (convenient for him) once he was booted out of office,...g w bush is well known for "talking" to god.

..if you think there is no violent christian jihad going on, then you cant have been watching the news for the past few years (at least)..

..or maybe you are hoping to paint the same view of muslims here, as they do on fox news.

..either way debates of this nature on these forums can only become devisive, and serve only to fragment a community whos glue is a 3d program, and not a bunch of worn out old verse.......

Steamthrower
02-18-2008, 01:46 PM
..if you think there is no violent christian jihad going on, then you cant have been watching the news for the past few years (at least)..

I think a major point here that would be well to make is that Bush's war doesn't necessarily mean it's a "Christian" war. It's a despicable war, in my opinion, and sometimes Bush acts pretty shamefully, but just because one banana is bruised doesn't mean all bananas are bruised.

No non-Muslim major attack on Western civilisation has happened for the past few decades as far as I remember...besides the IRA (who never exactly destroyed skyscrapers). And the IRA weren't fighting against Muslims.

This subject is one that pits friends against friends. For my part, I understand that everyone has a different opinion, a different vantage point, and a different level that things affect them at. So while I can understand other people's views and even respect them, it seems like sometimes folks lose sight of that and start a flame war...

Chris S. (Fez)
02-18-2008, 01:54 PM
..well thats about as misleading as it gets..


How about bolstering your argument with actual data, instead of ad hominem?

Please show me modern doctrine embraced by Catholics worldwide that calls for the violent spread of Catholicism and the subjugation of all other religions.

*Pete*
02-18-2008, 01:59 PM
Today there is no Catholic equivalent to violent Islamic Jihad.

This viewpoint exists becouse we arent listening to muslim opinions about the same conflict...for many muslims, the Iraq war is a modern crusade against Islam.

there are two sides to a coin, but opinions tend to be onesided.

as for violent islamic Jihad..it is not sanctioned by the islamic highpriests (their equivalent of the pope), its smaller, indepedent non-national groups that carry out what they see as a Jihad (protecting muslim territory) against what they see is a crusade.
the western precence in the middle east is not limited to the recent "war on terrorism" and humanitarian missions, it is something that has been going on for atleast a hundred years...who created the nations Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Israel and so on??..we did.
Who is responsible for the islamic revolution in Iran? we are.
Who is responsible for the Iran/Iraq war??..we are.

our recent behavior (during the last 100 years) is seen as an ongoing crusade by many, and specially by the fundamentalist terrorist groups who see it as a duty to carry out a Jihad warfare against it.

im not saying that they are right with what they do, as they arent..but i am saying that this Jihad you mentioned, didnt start without a reason or as a part of muslim unprovoced agression towards the west.

but now we are heading towards hijacking the thread from Diedond...he may be a muslim, but most likely not of a militant kind and the young nation of Kosovo will most likely never become part of any Jihads on anyone.

umstitch
02-18-2008, 02:04 PM
I think a major point here that would be well to make is that Bush's war doesn't necessarily mean it's a "Christian" war. It's a despicable war, in my opinion, and sometimes Bush acts pretty shamefully, but just because one banana is bruised doesn't mean all bananas are bruised.

No non-Muslim major attack on Western civilisation has happened for the past few decades as far as I remember...besides the IRA (who never exactly destroyed skyscrapers). And the IRA weren't fighting against Muslims.

This subject is one that pits friends against friends. For my part, I understand that everyone has a different opinion, a different vantage point, and a different level that things affect them at. So while I can understand other people's views and even respect them, it seems like sometimes folks lose sight of that and start a flame war...

..this is double standards, you are offering up a distorted perspective based on your own beliefs.

..a bunch of saudis crashed planes into two huge towers, this makes it a muslim attack?

..the IRA blew up a part of manchester city centre (buildings not tall enough for you?)

..and there is rather more than 1 bruised banana in the US........

*Pete*
02-18-2008, 02:07 PM
No non-Muslim major attack on Western civilisation has happened for the past few decades as far as I remember...besides the IRA (who never exactly destroyed skyscrapers). And the IRA weren't fighting against Muslims.

the Ira (and any terrorist organisation) were fighting against what they saw as their enemies..in this case the brittish occupation.
Palestinians are doing the same against Israel for very much the same reasons...when did the muslim palestinians attack USA, if ever?

the reason for Bin ladens Al quaida attacking USA is not becouse USA is:
A: a western nation
B: a free nation
C: a christian nation.

Bin Laden has repeadedly said what his motives are, and if you would care to look at it more deeply, you would find that the motives are based in politics first, religion second...if it was purely a religious war, there are plenty of christian nations much closer that he could attack with much more ease.

*Pete*
02-18-2008, 02:10 PM
news report.
USA, France, UK and Italy has recogniced Kosovo as an indepedent nation.

Lightwolf
02-18-2008, 02:10 PM
but just because one banana is bruised doesn't mean all bananas are bruised.
That goes for apples and oranges as well though... the argument works just as well to separate islam from the acts of a few believers.

Cheers,
Mike

Steamthrower
02-18-2008, 02:13 PM
I totally agree, Pete. It was all politics. Just the way some Muslim extremists treat politics is a little more brutal than the way Western nations do.

*Pete*
02-18-2008, 02:13 PM
That goes for apples and oranges as well though... the argument works just as well to separate islam from the acts of a few believers.

Cheers,
Mike


why i always end up writing so much, only for you to come and explain what i wanted to say with just one sentence.....

umstitch
02-18-2008, 02:14 PM
How about bolstering your argument with actual data, instead of ad hominem?

Please show me modern doctrine embraced by Catholics worldwide that calls for the violent spread of Catholicism and the subjugation of all other religions.


..what is modern doctrine?

..what kind of data are you looking for?

..catholics=christians to most non christians (a very large proportion of the worlds population)

ad hominem?... you re kidding right?..this is the internet we are all ad hominen..plus everyone knows that 90% of the information on the internet is incorrect...

..there is more than a hint of duplicity in various comments so far in this thread, the intention being to propegate the notion that muslims are perhaps less human, than non-muslims.

Steamthrower
02-18-2008, 02:15 PM
You're both right (Lightwolf and Pete). I'll have to agree. I've known Muslims before who are peaceful folk...but they're usually not the "real" Muslims, the super-strict, the hardcore traditionalists.

*Pete*
02-18-2008, 02:19 PM
I totally agree, Pete. It was all politics. Just the way some Muslim extremists treat politics is a little more brutal than the way Western nations do.

again, it depends if you want to agree that the "shock and awe" was an extension of western politics (or lack of diplomatic skills) or not.

or perhaps you just meant how to turkish goverment handles its disagreements...i couldnt find a link for you, but its really violent..members from different parties throwing chairs at eachother and ending up with fistfights lol

umstitch
02-18-2008, 02:22 PM
I totally agree, Pete. It was all politics. Just the way some Muslim extremists treat politics is a little more brutal than the way Western nations do.

..this is completely ridiculous, what kind of brutatlity are you looking for?
..if your sensibilities are offended by a suicide bombing, are they offended by smart bombs being guided onto a sleeping family?

..double standards..all of it

Steamthrower
02-18-2008, 03:04 PM
..this is completely ridiculous, what kind of brutatlity are you looking for?
..if your sensibilities are offended by a suicide bombing, are they offended by smart bombs being guided onto a sleeping family?

..double standards..all of it

You do realise that of course you are biased as much as anyone? There is no such thing as an unbiased person. Therefore, logically, when people have a debate they both have to accept that all parties are biased, all parties honestly believe they are right, and all parties want others to see things the way they see things.

The most important thing is to determine where everyone's bias truly lies.

You seem to assume that I am a typical Bush-supporting aggressive American with no sympathy for any. You're also assuming that I am some ultra right-wing fundamentalist who thinks he's a member of the Chosen Few. Well, I'm not, and before you came in we were having a nice little discussion with no ill feelings. I mean, seriously. We're talking on some forum's for Pete's sake. (no pun intended!)

So, logically. Of course I'm offended by smart bombs falling on sleeping civilians. You must not have been around during the recent threads in which I was attacking a similar thing: cluster bombs being dropped on innocent Iraqi villages.

Of course I'm offended by suicide bombings. The point is, Muslim extremists bomb an awful lot of places. And no, I'm not implying that as a "people" Muslims are intellectually, physically, mentally, or psychologically inferior to anyone.

Let's keep the vitriol in the bottle, please. Don't attack someone without really knowing what you're attacking.

umstitch
02-18-2008, 03:23 PM
..The point is, Muslim extremists bomb an awful lot of places. And no, I'm not implying that as a "people" Muslims are intellectually, physically, mentally, or psychologically inferior to anyone.

Let's keep the vitriol in the bottle, please. Don't attack someone without really knowing what you're attacking.

..vitriol?
..bottle?

..i know exactly what im attacking, and you know what you re defending.
..it is devisive and doesnt belong on these forums..and it begins with a politically devisive thread, inviting forum users to celebrate the violent breakup of yet another country.

..explaining yourself as fully as you can be bothered to is the price you pay.

..cause now you re not at the wheel of your fav 3d prog.

..ciao

Steamthrower
02-18-2008, 03:34 PM
inviting forum users to celebrate the violent breakup of yet another country

I'd hardly say that Kosovo's independence is what anybody would call "violent".


..explaining yourself as fully as you can be bothered to is the price you pay.

..cause now you re not at the wheel of your fav 3d prog.

A few last words before I cease arguing with someone who obviously doesn't know how to argue. I like to talk with people on these boards because it's educational and entertaining dealing with people from all different walks of life all over the world. I like learning about cultures and little idiosyncrasies that make up the earth. And I like to argue; not a vitriolic flame fest but the type of arguing that you do at a restaurant late at night when it's cold outside and you're with a lot of friends.

Chris S. (Fez)
02-18-2008, 03:37 PM
Removed by Chris's request.

umstitch
02-18-2008, 03:38 PM
I'd hardly say that Kosovo's independence is what anybody would call "violent".

..you are joking of course.

..and have just insulted 2 million people.

..flame away..

Chuck
02-20-2008, 10:14 AM
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