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Dunderflute
02-04-2008, 03:22 AM
I'm currently exploring LightWave as an alternative tool to 3D Studio Max. I would greatly appreciate if someone who is familiar with both 3dsmax and LightWave could answer some of the more application-specific questions.

What are your opinions of LightWave's polygon modeling toolset for games? How well do the UVW and animation tools handle rigging and animation of low resolution models (1500-3000 polygons).

In 3dsmax when I model the commands I use most often are: collapse, connect (edge and vertex), remove, chamfer, relax, smooth, loop, select invert, expand selection, contract selection, convert selection from vertex/edge/polygon, and shift-extruding an edge. What similar commands does LightWave support like these and what are they called?

What can LightWave's bones and animation workflow be compared to? Is it similar to Character Studio or do I have to build a bone rig from the ground up? How much control do I have weighting individual vertices for low resolution character models?

I'm sorry for the 1001 questions. I'm happily doing my own research and will be full of questions until I feel that I have an accurate perspective of LightWave. :boogiedow

Dodgy
02-04-2008, 05:00 AM
What are your opinions of LightWave's polygon modeling toolset for games? How well do the UVW and animation tools handle rigging and animation of low resolution models (1500-3000 polygons).
Very good, I used it for ten years modelling and animating for games.

I
n 3dsmax when I model the commands I use most often are: collapse, connect (edge and vertex), remove, chamfer, relax, smooth, loop, select invert, expand selection, contract selection, convert selection from vertex/edge/polygon, and shift-extruding an edge. What similar commands does LightWave support like these and what are they called?

Collapse, connect, remove, edgebevel, not sure, smooth, select loop?, select invert, expand selection, contract selection, select point/edge/poly from... extender plus are equivalent tools to what you know. Not sure what relax does.


What can LightWave's bones and animation workflow be compared to? Is it similar to Character Studio or do I have to build a bone rig from the ground up? How much control do I have weighting individual vertices for low resolution character models?

You have to build you own rig, but once built, you can replace a mesh with another and adjust the bones to fit without re-rigging.

Glad to be of help.

cresshead
02-04-2008, 06:39 AM
connect in max is bandsaw, bandsaw pro
remove can be bandglue
shift extrude in max is extender plus in lw

one thing top note that in lightwave there are LOADS of tools with variants on a theme for some things...these are the ones that come with lightwave nevermind the huge
amount of modeling tools via free plugins.

also some of the cool tools you see in polyboost [commercial plugin for max] were first seen in lightwave and re created for polyboost.

in lightwave you also have phantom point modeling so that you don't have to see the lo res cage and you can touch/move the points/verts on the actual sub d surface
which 3dsmax and maya STILL cannot do.

cresshead
02-04-2008, 06:50 AM
in addition in max 2008 you have a rather cumbersome way to rotate selected polys on a user defined pivot point...over here in lightwave we've a a VERY simple and really intuative way to do this as we have a ''specific action centre mode/type'' that can be set to all manner of types but i usually keep it at 'mouse' this also works great for scaling/stetching too and something that back over in max a REALLY miss.

once you've used it in lightwave and seen the advantage of it you'll be grumbling under your breath in max on how slow it is to do some of these tasks wich are a mere [B]click done...of course max has it's advantages too such as the stack and FFD lattices so it's not all lightwave's advantage.

also when you have a play in lightwave...keep caps lock off and when using a tool press n for the numeric panel as there's a whole TON of cool stuff to be done via that panel...keep it open!

Intuition
02-04-2008, 10:39 AM
Used Lightwave since 1995.

I could go on about Lightwave... pluses and negatives.

But if your coming from Max let me name one big huge negative.

There is no Vray in Lightwave. :(

But, Kray is a nice alternative to that. ;)

And there is no FumeFX or equivalent in Lightwave :(

I prefer XSI for character animation, dynamics, and certain aspects of Mental Ray that we also enjoy in Max and Maya Like bucket rendering.

If you have any interest in Mudbox, or Zbrush displaced meshes you will have a tough time keeping your render's within memory limits due to the non bucket render which tries to displace the mesh entirely at render time. In any other renderer it uses buckets to manage the displacement as it needs it per render bucket.

Although Lightwave's Radiosity is slower then Mental Ray you will spend less time setting it up since they have simplified the controls. Final Gather in Lightwave is a little different then the GI / final gather combo of Mental Ray.

In Mental Ray you fire off a GI solution with the photons / per light method and then use less final gather rays using the irradiance info from the GI solution.

I think Lightwave does this but it does not seperate the GI irradiance rays/light photons and the final gather controls. The controls are set up for final gather alone which fires off an irradiance pass before the FGathering commences.

You will like Lightwave's motion blur better hands down. It is just the best one available. Vray, has a nice quick motion blur as well but compared to mental ray and even modo's [email protected]@$$ render engine, yet Lightwave still has the best and fastest photoreal motion blur out there right now.

Character animation is better elsewhere but is doable in Lightwave. Its just a little more meticulous to set up.

Dynamics are pretty good in Lightwave. Working for most solutions but they can get bogged down when they start to get complex where as XSI, maya and MAX all have better solutions for dynamics.

But your main reason to come to Lightwave from any package would be that you can quickly and efficiently do general 3d work as fast as possible.

You will probably want to purchase a license of F-Prime 3 so that you have real time render feed back from your scene which makes setting up a scene a breeze and makes Lightwave the package for speed workers.

AT Eden FX we are using Maya, Max, and XSI... and personally I love XSI like there is no tomorrow... BUT, that being said I would never abandon my Lightwave. NO WAY.

For many of our fast turnaround jobs you can't get in and out of other apps as quickly as you can Lightwave and its not just because of familiarity with it.

XSI is a close 2nd in speed and if you count dynamics or rigging and CA then XSI has Lightwave beat hands down but once you get to render time the mental Ray workflow, although fast in XSI, and a little slower in max, and maya, can not compare to the Lightwave F-Prime combo. Sure you can get an extra 5-10% quality out of mental ray if you really know how to use it but for most stuff Lightwave will get you there and get you there fast.

Once again though, if you are primarily doing zbrush or mudbox displacements you will hit a wall in Lightwave. You can do them but you will need to manage your scenes as memory can quickly become an issue with all the image and displacement maps and highly subdivided meshes at render time. I can get full details from displacement alone in Mental Ray, Vray and Modo. In Lightwave you will want to use a displacement to do teh general displacing and add a normal map to fill in the details

Other then that, Lightwave is a great workhorse and a staple here at Eden FX.

Dunderflute
02-04-2008, 12:35 PM
Why can't I bind keys to Ctrl-I, and +.. ?

AbnRanger
02-04-2008, 01:00 PM
AT Eden FX we are using Maya, Max, and XSI... and personally I love XSI like there is no tomorrow...Hey Intuition, when did you guys start using Max there at Eden? I had no idea. So, where does it fit in, and have you tried the Polyboost plugin (script actually)?
How does VRay work with FumeFX? I use finalRender Stage 1 R2, and it works well with just about any Max plugin....unlike MentalRay (why I never use it anymore).
How does 'Dynamite' for LW work compare to FumeFx, if you guys have used both?

By the way, since no one has mentioned it, Sensei's (TrueArt) VirtualRender gives you bucket rendering and only loads into memory what each current bucket needs...certainly helpful, but it is about time LW went with bucket rendering too.

Intuition
02-04-2008, 01:07 PM
Abn Ranger - Max fits in nicely here. Although we mainly use it for Vray and fumeFX.

Dynamite is neat but nothing compares to fumeFX. It really is that good. Somehow it sims about 10x faster then dynamite and then renders faster as well.

We also used Max's natFX trees for a few projects. Those are pretty neat.

I myself prefer XSI over max in general but Vray is hard to beat.

I heard at siggraph that Vray could come out for XSI which would be ideal for my workflow. Also Vlado stated on the chaos group website that they were working on a Vray build for XSI.

I did not know about sensei's true art bucket renderer. I will check that out now. :D

Dunderflute
02-04-2008, 01:12 PM
The little arrow button-thing at the top right of the perspective viewport will set that view as a single viewport without changing the current rotation axis. When I click on "Single View" from the View tab it maximizes the viewport but also resets the current rotation. Is there a hotkey I can assign that will not reset the rotation axis?

Also, is there any form of context menu like Max's quad menu in LightWave?

GraphXs
02-04-2008, 01:13 PM
I currently use a LW/Max work flow for Real-time content creation. I use LW modeler for all of my modeling/UV creation. All the tools Max's "Edit Poly" has LW has an equal.

Max to LW modeling functions

Collapse >LW = Weld / Merge /dissolve / collapse polygons (poly/point/edge)
connect (edge and vertex) > LW= Connect, Add Edges, Bandsaw
remove > LW= dissolve, band Glue
chamfer > LW= Rounder
relax > LW = use (Free UV PLG Plugin’s) Relax UV / Make UV (similar to Max’s Pelt Mapping)
smooth > LW= Under Surface Editor (check smoothing)
loop > LW = select loop or loop creation= Bandsaw Pro
select invert > LW= invert
expand selection > LW= select expand
contract selection > LW = select contract
convert selection from vertex/edge/polygon > space bar cycles between selections (point/edge/poly) (leaves all selections until selecting dead spot)
shift-extruding an edge > LW= edge bevel / multi-shift to extrude

In LW modeler there are many tools to that can do similar functions, just need to find the one that best fit your modeling needs.


Rigging

CS in Max is easier then LW for rigging Setup. LW does have some nice edit tools for bones and once you create a rig you can model swap. Some advantages of LW bones is they can be animated (size, stretching, and transforming can all be applied to the bones, they have no restrictions besides IK issues) Weighting is similar to Max, but aren’t need to Skin a bone to the mesh: LW bones by default have a fall off. If “bone weight” are made they are usually done in Modeler, and if you use the same name for bones and weights LW will automatically apply the weight to the proper bone.
LW IK setup is a little more work unless you use IK boost (a tool that gives IK to all the chains in the bones, but it is difficult to pin down the IK (feet rotations for example) The best use of IK boost is using it in conjunction with LW normal IK. Another advantage to that is IK boost is just apart of LW normal bones so you don’t need to work in different graph editors, or can use other modifiers and not be restricted to just using CS workbench,etc,etc. I don’t get to use LW for animation at work for our real-time, we use max for that part of the pipeline. (I do use it for pre-vis and pre-render stuff)

The other great thing about LW is the community and the huge amount of free plug-ins. Also LW v9.x cycle hopefully will update some of its short comings.

Good luck and Welcome!

Dunderflute
02-04-2008, 01:25 PM
Thank you for the tool list, GraphXs.

I'm having a new problem. When I try to extrude a face it reacts as if the face is flipped and extrudes inside-out. This can't be correct, can it? If I right click to end the extrude it flips back the correct way but it extrudes twice as far.

Now Modeler has locked up on me. A few random clicks seems to have brought it back to life. Nope.. locked up again. I have to restart it. :screwy:

http://3dfolio.com/files/lw_ext.png

Intuition
02-04-2008, 01:28 PM
I just use bevel with no inset for that operation.

Extrude is better used when you want to pull geometry back from a polygon face.

AbnRanger
02-04-2008, 01:36 PM
Here's the link to Sensei's (TrueArt) 'VirtualRender':
http://www.trueart.pl/?URIType=Directory&URI=Products/Plug-Ins/VirtualRender

While you are there, check out his modeling plugins as well. It really expands LW's tools probably to the degree that Polyboost does for Max.

AbnRanger
02-04-2008, 01:39 PM
I just use bevel with no inset for that operation.

Extrude is better used when you want to pull geometry back from a polygon face.Yeah...even in Max, I almost always use bevel instead of extrude (since it is nothing more than extrude with an inset)

Intuition
02-04-2008, 01:41 PM
Here's the link to Sensei's (TrueArt) 'VirtualRender':
http://www.trueart.pl/?URIType=Directory&URI=Products/Plug-Ins/VirtualRender

While you are there, check out his modeling plugins as well. It really expands LW's tools probably to the degree that Polyboost does for Max.

Yeah, man these plugs are great!

That bucket renderer is great and it works with Kray... ON A FARM!!! JEEZ

Sensei for the WIN!

AbnRanger
02-04-2008, 01:56 PM
Abn Ranger - Max fits in nicely here. Although we mainly use it for Vray and fumeFX.

Dynamite is neat but nothing compares to fumeFX. It really is that good. Somehow it sims about 10x faster then dynamite and then renders faster as well.

We also used Max's natFX trees for a few projects. Those are pretty neat.

I myself prefer XSI over max in general but Vray is hard to beat.

I heard at siggraph that Vray could come out for XSI which would be ideal for my workflow. Also Vlado stated on the chaos group website that they were working on a Vray build for XSI.

I did not know about sensei's true art bucket renderer. I will check that out now. :DWhat are you using for fluids in general, may I ask? Maya's fluids? Or have you experimented with Flood for Max (that Karakatoa plugin they recently released at Siggraph '07 looks impressive too):
http://www.franticfilms.com/software/

Intuition
02-04-2008, 02:30 PM
What are you using for fluids in general, may I ask? Maya's fluids? Or have you experimented with Flood for Max (that Karakatoa plugin they recently released at Siggraph '07 looks impressive too):
http://www.franticfilms.com/software/

I think we Hi-Jacked thread..... :hijack:

I have not messed with Flood, what is it?

Realflow is used around here for general fluid sims.

Dunderflute, please feel free to jump in with more questions about LW. :)

:hat:

cresshead
02-04-2008, 02:41 PM
fluid options:-
glu for max
real flow of course..
blender is a good option too i believe...just a bit of importing/exporting/comping.

:offtopic: :hijack: :eek:

opps!....:D

of course max and lightwave can use blender for fluid sims:thumbsup:

AbnRanger
02-04-2008, 02:43 PM
Sorry about that...for what it's worth and to stay on topic, Character Animation is currently undergoing a major re-write, and we should see something new hopefully by the next full release.
Oh...the other bonus in LW (I think someone eluded to it here) is the rendering plugin FPrime. I've been waiting to get that kind of functionality in Max for some time...still nothing.
www.worely.com

node surfacing in LW is more robust than Max's material editor...another plus

by the way, Inuition, Flood is one of Frantic Films own Fluid sim that has been made available to the public as a commercial plugin

cresshead
02-04-2008, 02:44 PM
my spies hinted that the next lightwave point update is NOT about character animation advances just so you as much as me [not much!]

cresshead
02-04-2008, 03:01 PM
i'd say in my opinion on max/lw as a max and lightwave user is the following:-

modeling..
both have good and bad so they work about about even with maybe lightwave having the edge [really poor punn there!] over max.

general animation..
both are okay for many tasks but max has a deeper capability i think and with much simpler set up on many tasks

materials/uv
i prefer messing with lightwave over max for material/surfaces creation
you have more options and they are laid out in a really simple way to get your head around.

lighting/rendering
again...similar but there are some things that max can offer and some that lightwave is great at...i'd say lightwave had a really nice camera/motion blur
it's lights are okay buti miss the ies lights from max and max has a bunch of renderers
scanline
radiosity
light tracer
mental ray with ray tracing gi and final gather...
mental ray's arch and design shaders are ACE btw.
ink and paint material
contour shader

character animation and rigging...well another bad punn on it's way but max runs rings around lightwave...esp with biped, anything for a bone inc poly objects, splines, lights [~!!!~] bones etc...easy to set up ik that's pretty darn stable...motion mixer and simple to use motion capture tools

particles both have strong points..lightwave has hypervoxels and max has
particle flow.

max has instancing and referencing...nadda for lightwave.[nowt]
max has a solid undo system for nr everything [there are a couple of exceptions] whereas lightwave is quite pikky as to what and how an undo may or may not work...

lightwave has the hub...and 2 apps for modeling and animation...no cameras whilst you model...no lighting...no ''modeling with animation''

max you have the stack.
lightwave you copy paste your modeling session onto layers as you go..
with lightwave having no stack modeling operations such as lathes are a done deal once you commit and they get turned to a poly object..over in max you can go back and edit the spline shape and the lathe will update live..

i'd say it's mostly swings n roundabouts...good and not so good in both apps..
the main bonus with max is the character animation tools for me..and being in 1 app not split into 2...with jumping back n forth and hoping the hub keeps working.

RedBull
02-04-2008, 03:16 PM
Thank you for the tool list, GraphXs.

I'm having a new problem. When I try to extrude a face it reacts as if the face is flipped and extrudes inside-out. This can't be correct, can it? If I right click to end the extrude it flips back the correct way but it extrudes twice as far.

Yeah i notice this was seemingly incorrect, as well...It seems dragging in a positive fashion is giving a negative value, i.e you have extruded in eg. -2m, technically i would prefer it would be +2m and be flipped the other direction automatically.. As it is now you will need to select the newly created polygons and hit the "f" key to flip them around the right way.

I'm guessing this is an oversight on NT's part, because i cannot see a real logical reason for it to work this way. It should be reversed.

Better Option: Flip the Polygon "f" before you extrude it!!!!

Exception
02-04-2008, 04:17 PM
Is there a hotkey I can assign that will not reset the rotation axis?


Numerical '0' key (insert).
All numerical keys are programmable view keys. hold down control to program them, and then just use them..

I have '1' for wireframe, '2' for smooth texture shaded, '3' for textured wireframe, '5' for reset view sizes, and so on.

I don't mean what you mean with 'bind'....

you might want to try some demo videos or the manual for different hot key setups. there's a lot of power in the keyboard for Lw. I hardly use any of the menus.

GraphXs
02-04-2008, 04:35 PM
Thank you for the tool list, GraphXs.

I'm having a new problem. When I try to extrude a face it reacts as if the face is flipped and extrudes inside-out. This can't be correct, can it? If I right click to end the extrude it flips back the correct way but it extrudes twice as far.

Now Modeler has locked up on me. A few random clicks seems to have brought it back to life. Nope.. locked up again. I have to restart it.


Extrude is really only go for flat face polys, use Bevel or Multi-Shift (Multi-Shift is bevel/extrude w/history(per tool session)/mult poly selection as group or face,save,etc. Hit "N" for numeric option on all the tools you use.


If modeler is locking up check for the lastest Open GL (v2.0) drivers, if you have that then kill the config files under C:\Documents and Settings\XXX "LWM9.CFG" and restart LW.

Dunderflute
02-04-2008, 06:15 PM
Please don't hijack my thread! 8/

I found Left/Middle/Right click menus in the Configure Menus dialog. How do I assign these to a key?

I notice that there is a Points, Edge, and Polygon sub-object modes. If I want to reposition the entire object how would I do that? And is there an element sub-object like in 3dsmax?

If I have a set of edges, points, or polygons selected how do I "drop" my selection?

And where is the numerical editor? "N" doesn't work for individual points, edges, or polygons.

Dodgy
02-04-2008, 06:18 PM
The mouse menus are accessible by pressing ctrl-shift and the mouse button of the menu. To assign keys, press alt-f9 to open the Hotkey editor, and then select the command and drag it onto the key you wish to assign it to.

GraphXs
02-04-2008, 09:26 PM
Hit "n" will bring up the numeric functions for tools: ( Move, Rotate, Bend, Multi-shift, etc,etc.) If you want to see polygons, point, or edge info/statistics hit "w". You can select by surfaces, groups, get info etc.

Space bar will toggle between points, polys, edges.

If you want to drop selections you can lasso them or hit a “dead” area. It would be like the gray areas under buttons (any space that not a button)

If you want to change the UI(display options), keyboard shortcuts, etc its under the Edit drop down (upper left under “File”)

You can change what side the menu is on, and put it to the right side of the screen like Max.

Under the Windows drop down (upper left corner) you can bring up Layers, Vertex, and presents panels.

Holding Ctrl/Shift and Left/Right/Mid mouse buttons will give you access to all of the tools. I usually change these to the tools I work with for quick tool changing (similar to creating a shelf in Maya)

Bottom Area

Symmetry only works in world space. When you mirror your objects the points of the mirror object if shifted will mess up the selections. However if you use the falloff tools like in magnet it will allow symmetry to work because the fall effect is being mirrored (if nothing is selected)

Modes will change the influence of the pivot point. By default you mouse pointer is always the center of influence.

SubD-Types (subpatch only wks with 4 or 3 pt polys CC works like Max, but is broke in some areas like UV’s) (Tab) button to turn on sub-division surface for objects.

GraphXs
02-04-2008, 09:30 PM
Oh, sorry for the wrong shortcut key for "numeric input" Its not "N" it is lowercase "n".

Sarford
02-05-2008, 05:32 PM
To drop a selection hit the '/' key. You have to drop your tool first for it to work (spacebar) otherwise uses GraphXs his methode.

Dunderflute
02-05-2008, 07:23 PM
To drop a selection hit the '/' key. You have to drop your tool first for it to work (spacebar) otherwise uses GraphXs his methode.

That's it, thanks. :)

I really like the sliders like those found in the numeric box but they're worthless in their current state. How am I supposed to use them if I can only drag as far as my screen resolution?

In 3dsmax I'm able to create a 3D cube from the center rather than a corner if I hold down Ctrl while dragging the mouse. Is there something similar in LightWave?

Dunderflute
02-06-2008, 12:43 AM
Where can I find a numerical editor for positioning my selection in world space? Like a vertex or an object?

MooseDog
02-06-2008, 04:20 AM
in modeler: T (for move), n for the numeric panel: type in your numbers and hit apply.

in layout: T (for move), bottom left corner of the app, type in the co-ordinates and hit tab. (no moving verts in layout btw)

cresshead
02-06-2008, 05:45 AM
re max numeric move scale rotate

for moving via numerics you also have the move rotate and scale floating panel

transform type in shortcut is F12 and you can also find it under the tools menu or if you right hand click the move rotate or scale toolbar icons that will also open the floater up as well

so max and lightwave solve this in a very similar way.

ben martin
02-06-2008, 06:42 AM
Thank you for the tool list, GraphXs.

I'm having a new problem. When I try to extrude a face it reacts as if the face is flipped and extrudes inside-out. This can't be correct, can it? If I right click to end the extrude it flips back the correct way but it extrudes twice as far.

Now Modeler has locked up on me. A few random clicks seems to have brought it back to life. Nope.. locked up again. I have to restart it. :screwy:

http://3dfolio.com/files/lw_ext.png
To extude a face clean and easy just use the "Extender Plus" = "e" key instead.
It works this way:
1. Select the face/poly to extrude.
2. hit "e" key or select the menu "Multiply -> Extend - >Extender Plus"
3. Just move the face/poly away and its done!

If you use the extrude comand, just select the inverted polys and hit "f" to flip them but don't forget that the original extruded poly stills there in the object, you need to delete it after extrude it (if needed)!

dwburman
02-06-2008, 06:57 AM
Extrude:
If you flip the poly ('f') before you use the extrude tool, the box won't be inside out. Like someone said, it's designed to be used with 2D geometry so it leaves the original poly in place.

the yellow line coming off the poly tells you which direction the poly's normal is facing.

Box:
I believe holding one of the modifier keys (shift or control or alt) will constrain the box to be a perfect cube. I don't know if there's a way to make it draw from the center....

If you want to center an object at the world origin, just hit 'F2'

AbnRanger
02-07-2008, 08:13 PM
Since the name "Polyboost" was brought up earlier, just thought I'd mention that v4 was just released (it appears he re-wrote it in C++ so that it performs as fast as the rest of Max does (the tool that benefits the most from the speedup is Polyshift..similar to LW's Dragnet):

http://www.cmlcreative.com/Videos/PolyBoost4_video.avi
http://www.polyboost.com/

One of the newer tools that Sensei came up with, Swift Edge Loop, was the result of a request to incorporate Polyboost's SwiftLoop feature into his toolset. This guy really works hard for the LW community, pushing the LW SDK to it's limits, and listens to users as well as anyone I can think of...so if you are going to be using LW, you will want to put TrueArt's plugins at the top of your "add-to" list, right along with Fprime.
http://www.trueart.pl/?URIType=Directory&URI=Products/Plug-Ins/SwiftEdgeLoop

AbnRanger
02-08-2008, 06:24 PM
Since the name "Polyboost" was brought up earlier, just thought I'd mention that v4 was just released (it appears he re-wrote it in C++ so that it performs as fast as the rest of Max does (the tool that benefits the most from the speedup is Polyshift..similar to LW's Dragnet):

http://www.cmlcreative.com/Videos/PolyBoost4_video.avi
http://www.polyboost.com/

One of the newer tools that Sensei came up with, Swift Edge Loop, was the result of a request to incorporate Polyboost's SwiftLoop feature into his toolset. This guy really works hard for the LW community, pushing the LW SDK to it's limits, and listens to users as well as anyone I can think of...so if you are going to be using LW, you will want to put TrueArt's plugins at the top of your "add-to" list, right along with Fprime.
http://www.trueart.pl/?URIType=Directory&URI=Products/Plug-Ins/SwiftEdgeLoopSorry for sounding like a commercial, I was directing the first paragraph to other Max users here and the second to Dundeflute....forgot to address him specifically, before the 5 min edit cutoff.