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Glendalough
01-29-2008, 07:30 AM
I bought one of the new 8 core Mac Pros (finally a full size Macintosh after years since the G5 came out) and am hoping for some advice about monitors.

Was going to go for the 20 inch Apple but then had 2nd thoughts when I remembered a thread here sometime in the past 6 months about a Dell being better value. I can't seem to find the thread and am not sure how accurate it was.

Looked up a few on the web but was pretty lost, seems you can get a 22 inch widescreen for considerably less than the 20 inch Apple. But some are more than others and don't know how they compare (to the Apple).

I know that the Apple would be a bit more compatible and has a better design, but if the Dell was better quality or even the same, think it would cost less and also has a 3 year warranty compared to the Apple 1 year. (Also in EU zone the Apple is 140 dollars more than U.S. without tax and 285 more with tax)

Wondering does anyone have any experience in this area? I would be very thankful for any ideas or info !

eblu
01-29-2008, 07:39 AM
hi
no dell experience at all, but I will chime in w/ my apple display exp. I have personally purchased 3 apple lcd displays over the years, and I have never been disappointed by any of them. I am of the opinion that in regards to LCD monitors, you get exactly what you pay for.

of course you gotta go your own way, this is by no means meant to be a flame or the rantings of an apple zealot. I know there are comparably priced Lcds out there, as well as some that are MUCH more expensive. I'm sure it depends on what you need. good luck!

Otterman
01-29-2008, 07:50 AM
I can vouch for the mac screens here also! Weve 4x23" and 2x30" muvers and they peachey. No problems wiv em-not so much as a dead pixel between em!

The colour depth and tonal range is second to none from my experience:thumbsup: As for dell, dunno...but i guess your always gonna get a bias opinion posting here on the mac forum!

Glendalough
01-29-2008, 07:56 AM
Thanks for taking the time to write eblu and Otterman.

It's really a matter of economics. I'd like the best monitor I could get for 600 euro, the price of the Apple 20 inch.

Just thought I read somewhere that all LCDs are made, that is, the LCD screen itself, by about 6 manufacturers. Other monitor companies would be using the same LCDs as Apple. So though different brands, the results would be the same based on quality control related to a price structure (obviously), if you get what I mean. Not expressed too well.

Personally, I think Mac is the best computer by a very long shot, but am not as confident about the peripherals.

Thanks again for writing.

iconoclasty
01-29-2008, 07:58 AM
I'm not a mac user and haven't had much mac monitor use since college (crt days). But I use almost exclusively Dell monitors in day to day use and would definitely vouch for their value. Good quality, low price. Some of the models vary slightly so do your homework, check the specs, and make sure to get an ultraSharp model and you should be happy. But if you want your monitor to match your shiny new computer, I understand.

Captain Obvious
01-29-2008, 08:18 AM
Just don't buy a Samsung one. I got one real cheap, and it's absolute pants. Its viewing angle is so bad that it makes me suspect it's got tunnel vision.

I've got a 24" Dell at work, and it's nice.

iconoclasty
01-29-2008, 08:25 AM
I thought pants was a positive term.

Otterman
01-29-2008, 09:19 AM
no pants are underwear-trousers are a positive response :D

Captain Obvious
01-29-2008, 09:24 AM
Pants is bad, for some reason, and "dog's balls" is good. I never really understood the whole idea behind the English slang. And what the heck is the deal with "bee's knees," anyway?

Lightwolf
01-29-2008, 09:30 AM
And what the heck is the deal with "bee's knees," anyway?
http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/aue_related/full_faq.html

Enjoy :)

Cheers,
Mike

art
01-29-2008, 10:14 AM
I have a 24" ultrasharp dell at home and I like it very much. I've been using a 21" ultrasharp dell at work for 4+ years and it still works very well.


http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/aue_related/full_faq.html


Did they use random character generator to register that domain?

Glendalough
01-29-2008, 10:16 AM
iconoclasty: Thanks for the tip on the ultraSharp model

Captain Obvious: Thanks for the warning on Samsung

As for the pants-trousers controversy, think the pants aren't on as solid ground as trousers. Though when I arrived in this part of the world was really knocked out going to a shop and asking for potatoes...."How many stones do you want?" or "Would half a stone be what your looking for?"

"Stones? We want potatoes!" Then a tired resigned look would come into the shop keepers eye. Yankee slang and incomprehension will be the death of us.

Glendalough
01-29-2008, 10:20 AM
I have a 24" ultrasharp dell at home and I like it very much. I've been using a 21" ultrasharp dell at work for 4+ years and it still works very well.



Did they use random character generator to register that domain?

Thanks for the input! If we could just get a comparison of an Ultrasharp with the Apple. Though I don't expect anyone to stick their head out.

JeffrySG
01-29-2008, 10:23 AM
I've been using a Dell 19" 1280x1024 Ultra sharp for two years now and I love it. I'm thinking of getting a larger Dell eventually too, but I will definitely get another Ultrasharp Dell. For color critical work I've heard that the other Dell monitors are not as good as the ultrasharp models.

The Dell I have now works perfectly on my MacPro.

Glendalough
01-29-2008, 10:24 AM
http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/aue_related/full_faq.html

Enjoy :)

Cheers,
Mike

Hi Mike,

Interesting link:

'...Other discoveries of mine are: "underwear" in the specific sense
"(women's) underpants" (American women have taken a dislike to the
word "panties", and will now say things like "I put two pairs of
underwear in the wash", or "I'm not wearing any underwear" when
wearing a bra);...'

ingo
01-29-2008, 10:39 AM
Well i would choose an Eizo instead, for example the new Eizo S2231WE-BK.

http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2008/review-eizo-s2231w.html

Captain Obvious
01-29-2008, 11:59 AM
"Stones? We want potatoes!" Then a tired resigned look would come into the shop keepers eye. Yankee slang and incomprehension will be the death of us.
"Stone" is a mineral, not a measurement of weight. Besides, nobody in England knows what a stone is, anyway.

-I'm seven stone!
-Well, how much is a stone?
-Uhh, I don't know. A seventh of me?

Greenlaw
01-29-2008, 12:12 PM
At home I have a 24" Dell Ultrasharp Widescreen as my primary monitor and it's fantastic. I initially bought it as a secondary monitor to my CRT but after calibrating it I decided that it made more sense to use it as a primary display. The quality is impressive and at the time (April 2007) the price was considerably cheaper than Apple's equivalent. (When purchasing from Dell, check to see what rebates are being offered--it used to change every week, but there seemed to be a pattern to it.)

From what I read at the time, the panel in the Dell display is manufactured by the same company that makes Apple's. (I don't have any links handy, but I'm sure you can google for this info.) I can't do a direct comparison with Apple's, but I can give you a quick description of the Dell. It has a very solid heavy-duty stand, and it looks great. It's a slim design but not as light as it looks, but it's a lot lighter than my CRT of course. The controls and inputs are different of course, but reasonably thorough. Features several USB ports if you need them, some in the back, some out the side.

As with any monitor you intend to use for production work, you'll want to calibrate it. Out of the box, I found that the Dell couldn't display gray values below 6% or so--it would just go full white. After calibration, however, this wasn't a problem. The grayscale range still isn't as wide as with the CRT, but it's much better than I expected it to be, and surprisingly useable for print and video production. The display's color accuracy is quite good and it tends to be stay stable over a much longer period of time than the CRT does.

Hope this info is helpful.

DRG

Andyjaggy
01-29-2008, 12:24 PM
From what I have heard elsewhere the Dell's actually have better image quality and are cheaper.

Also the Cinema displays I have used suffer from a temporary burn in. If you leave a window open for m ore then 5 minutes when you move it you will still see a faint outline of it on the screen. It eventually fades after a few minutes, but it is still annoying.

Greenlaw
01-29-2008, 12:42 PM
Hi,

I just realized that I didn't describe the controls. It gives you individual control over RGB, brightness and contrast; pretty much what you'd expect in a monitor. There are several connectors: DVI, VGA, compsite video, S-video, and component video. I think that's about it.

DRG

gatz
01-29-2008, 01:02 PM
I've been happy with my 24" Dell Ultrasharps. Choose Dell over Apple's offerings primarily because of VGA connectivity so I could share the monitors with a KVM. The image quality is quite good. Toggling inputs is another nice Dell feature. I read that Dell has a 24 or 27 that adds a HDMI port. But it's only available in Japan. If the image through that port is solid it would be nice to be able to toggle to a HD signal from a Blackmagic or Aja card.

rg

Glendalough
01-29-2008, 01:39 PM
Thanks Guys for all the details and info, this is getting complicated!

Went to the Dell Website and found a 20 inch widescreen Ultrasharp, this only 100 Euro less than the Apple, so things beginning to make sense.

Might as well get the Apple and not worry about saving a 100 but on the other hand, what if the Dell is better? Don't like the sound of the 'temporary burn in' that Andyjaggy mentions.

It's peculiar that there is a 3 year warranty on the Dell, don't know if this is or was an EU or UK law. Bought a Viewsonic CRT years ago, when they were comparatively good and it went after about 2 years, it had a 3 year warranty and it was replaced and shipped all 40-50 pounds (many stone) totally free of any charge.

Also each year, recently anyway, seems to have brought big changes in the quality of monitors. Also got a Viewsonic LCD about 2 years ago and this much better quality than CRT, though slightly less cost. This blew also and was replaced by another slightly larger (19 inch) as they didn't have original size, but this model might have been older, don't know, can only guess but it doesn't seem to be quite as good as the original. Maybe my imagination, but it just seems harsher, though I know it's good quality by comparing to a new Apple Laptop screen. But won't take any more chances with Viewsonic. It's either got to be an Apple or the Dell Ultrasharp.

iconoclasty
01-29-2008, 01:49 PM
Definitely watch for Dell sales. If you're willing to wait a week or two, you can most definitely find a large discount.

Matt
01-29-2008, 05:30 PM
I too can vouch for the Dell UltraSharp range, we use them at work and they are awesome.

At home I have a Sharp T19D1, only a 19" but it's absolutely brilliant, no dead pixels, never failed me, and razor sharp!

axaboss
01-29-2008, 08:47 PM
From what I have heard elsewhere the Dell's actually have better image quality and are cheaper.

Also the Cinema displays I have used suffer from a temporary burn in. If you leave a window open for m ore then 5 minutes when you move it you will still see a faint outline of it on the screen. It eventually fades after a few minutes, but it is still annoying.

I should know. I own both an Apple 20" and a Dell 24". The Apple does suffer from Temp Burn ins and a faint magenta haze (hardly perceptible, but there). The Dell Ultrasharp Monitor is now part of my 8 core Apple system and the Apple monitor is used as a video monitor. Dell monitors are hands down the best. I actually bought two with another on the way.

Mr Rid
01-29-2008, 09:55 PM
I compared LCD monitor reviews a great deal in recent years. A couple years ago I bought a top rated 20" Dell, hooked it up, my wife (a compositor) and I leaned forward in anticipation of dazzlement, peering at the screen and we both immediately noticed something dreadful about the display that NO ONE ever talks about- anti glare coating. Most people seem to believe this is something desirable and it is on 85% of the LCDs out there but it looks AWFUL to us. For some reason, many alledged graphics pros dont seem to notice this horrible grey blotchiness all over the screen, including the much vaunted Apple Cinema displays (I kept pointing out the antiglare to one salesman who could not see or understand at all what I was refering to). My wife and I dont get it. I immediately put the monitor back in the box intending to return it get something else.

We started looking at every monitor in every electronics store and nearly all of them had this stupid coating. At the time, only Sony and Toshiba made what is regarded as 'glossy' monitors lacking the antiglare gunk, but only on their below 19" models. For some reason, the 20"+ models all had the antiglare. I have a Vaio laptop with a 17" glossy monitor that remains the best looking display I have ever seen. Most think reflections are a problem but I find them unnoticeable even in a brightly lit room (I prefer a bright environ, unlike most 3D spelunkers).

Am mystified that I have never seen any review or comment on the aesthetic undesirability of antiglare in pro graphics work. To me the very expensive Cinema displays suck because of this. Have read that antiglare supposedly also protects the screen, but who cares if it is ruining a fine display? Is also suppose to reduce radiation, but all LCDs have WAY less radiation than any CRT (I use an electromagnetic and microwave detector on everything at home and work).

Have stuck with my old CRTs and put off buying any LCDs ever since, but recently Ive noticed some large displays out there with less or no antiglare. After size, it is the main thing I look at when browsing monitors.

gatz
01-29-2008, 11:06 PM
I've heard criticisms of Apple's new MacBooks BECAUSE they have glossy screens.

Matt
01-30-2008, 02:40 AM
I don't mind the anti-glare, but I quite like the glossy screens on Vaio laptops too!

Mr Rid
01-30-2008, 03:09 AM
I don't mind the anti-glare, but I quite like the glossy screens on Vaio laptops too!

The clarity on my 17" Vaio display is almost too good. The slightest imperfection in an image will leap out that was almost unnoticeable on my CRTs (one of them being a mammoth 24" Sony CRT). Subtle mismatched gamma in composited elements becomes very apparent that would not normally. Most who walk by my desk for the first time cant help but comment on the display. I have not seen a 22"+ LCD with the same vivid clarity. But will buy it the moment I do.

Phil
01-30-2008, 05:16 AM
I've heard criticisms of Apple's new MacBooks BECAUSE they have glossy screens.

The glossy screen on my partner's MacBook is simply awful. Blacks really don't look black and the reflections are very difficult for me to deal with when I try to use it. I much prefer the matte finish on my MacBook Pro and cannot currently imagine working with a glossy screen.

Glendalough
01-30-2008, 07:54 AM
Thanks again for all the comments and info, very useful.

I phoned the Dell people here today and they can get a 22 inch Ultra for 400 and a 20 for 470 (not a special offer). Maybe, beginning to think that to go with the Ultrasharp is better as both bigger and 2 thirds Apple price, also 3 year warranty, Unless someone can say categorically that the Apples are superior for some reason. The only funny thing about the Ultrasharp is that there is a 3 week wait, not that this is important.

Don't know what to think about the anti-glare and glossy controversy. My son has one of the glossy Apple ibooks and was surprised that it was okay after some of the things people were saying about it. He likes it for films. Think it's really a matter of taste, but people feel strongly about it.

The best thing with laptops recently, which maybe makes the reflection problem less important is that they have got much brighter screens. My first computer ever, a long time ago, was one of the old Apple G3s (Wallstreet) and boy did that have a dim screen!

JonW
01-31-2008, 12:14 AM
I had a Sony 21 inch professional screen (CRT), it was very nice! I now have a 24 inch Dell screen, overall the Sony was better, but I do like having more desk space, a 21 inch screen was huge! I am 9.5/10 happy with this screen, and have my Mac and PC plugged into it and can easily switch between the two computers.

Just wait for Dell’s special prices, or wait for a special on the 30 inch (these are half the price of an old 21 inch CRT from years ago, I think we all forget just how expensive “large” screens were).

JonW
01-31-2008, 12:17 AM
I had a Sony 21 inch professional screen (CRT), it was very nice! I now have a 24 inch Dell screen, overall the Sony was better, but I do like having more desk space, 21 inch screens were huge! I am 9.5/10 happy with this screen, and have my Mac and PC plugged into it and can easily switch between the two computers.

Just wait for Dell’s special prices, or wait for a special on the 30 inch (these are half the price of an old 21 inch CRT from years ago, I think we all forget just how expensive “large” screens were).

JonW
01-31-2008, 12:44 AM
Forgot to ad.....

The Dell is very bright, mine is set to 0% brightness and it could be a touch dimmer for perfect viewing conditions. If you do a lot of colour correction have a look at the link, it is old but still relevant.

http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/11791.html

In relation to the link with grey walls and ceilings, if you want to choose your own colour grey, get some Kodak or similar “Grey Cards” of different brightness or at least an 18% Grey Card and work from there, match up with colours from the Dulux Master Pallet paint swatches using neutral lighting, you will have to take the Dulux book outside the shop because of the artificial lighting, try to do this on a day with sky with some cloud to achieve a good neutral match. Older paint shops should still have a copy of the Dulux Master Pallet.

Glendalough
01-31-2008, 12:34 PM
JonW, Always good to hear from Down Under, thanks for writing!

Haven't done much print work for a long time and then mostly in black and white. Must have a go at calibration though, haven't done it for years. Thanks again for info and link.

Greenlaw
01-31-2008, 02:31 PM
Yes, definitely calibrate your LCD display, otherwise you will miss seeing important data whether it's for print, web, or video. If you don't calibrate, you'll risk heartbreak from bad output results. (Trust me, color output quality is hard enough to maintain even with calibration.)

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Dell display is set too bright out of the box and you'll lose lighter gray values; you'll get them back after calibration, and of course your colors will be more accurate too.

For what it's worth, I'm currently calibrating my gear with the Spyder 2 Pro which came with my PrintFix Professional suite. I used to use a device made by Monaco, which was okay but no longer supported, and I think the Spyder is much better anyway. The Spyder is easy to set up and operate on a regular basis, and it does a very decent job. This suite also came with a spectrocolorimeter for creating printer profiles, but if you don't need full print calibration, you can purchase the Spyder as a standalone device. The new Spyder 3 elite is supposed to be even more accurate.

DRG

Glendalough
01-31-2008, 04:35 PM
...
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Dell display is set too bright out of the box and you'll lose lighter gray values; you'll get them back after calibration, and of course your colors will be more accurate too...


Hi Greenlaw,
Yes I had this problem with the Viewsonic CRT, the whole upper light tonal spectrum was blended or squashed pretty much together!

On the other hand, there is the other guys monitor and it's hard to know what they may be seeing. Some people are saying that H.264 exported from Quicktime is coming out different in Windows. I noticed a PDF and other things,like tga images coming out different in Bootcamp Windows.

Suppose the monitor has to be calibrated differently for Windows, if you are using Bootcamp. At least, I hope it does, and Macintosh work (if properly balanced) will appear okay on any Windows machine of reasonable quality.

Lightwolf
01-31-2008, 04:39 PM
Afaik OSX expects a gamma of around 1.8, while windows uses 2.2 or so.
You can calibrate your system to match, but getting graphics to look identical on end customers machine is a different topic.
Afaik QT also gamma corrects video in some cases (usually for the worse).

Cheers,
Mike

Glendalough
02-08-2008, 05:42 AM
Warning!!!

I've just had a bad Dell experience, don't get the 22 inch Ultrashap (2208WFP) as the only Ultrasharp thing about it is the stand. It appears this model uses a TN screen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-IPS#TN_.2B_film

"These particular panels, with 6 bits per color channel as opposed to 8, can approach 24-bit color using a dithering method which combines adjacent pixels to simulate the desired shade."

And other things bad as well. Fortunately they are taking it back. Don't know if this is an EU thing or whether they would do this in America without a fuss.

In this case it appears Apple wins out, because though more expensive, there is not a quality control problem. Find this quite amazing that Dell would do this, as do many other people even on their own forums! Seems like monitors are like wine, each year is different and no correlation between the same model numbers of different years.

JeffrySG
02-08-2008, 09:05 AM
Glendalough, so do the better Dells use the IPS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-IPS#IPS) screens? do you know if these specs are listed on the product specs on the website? How did you find out?

thanks,
Jeff

Glendalough
02-08-2008, 11:05 AM
Glendalough, so do the better Dells use the IPS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-IPS#IPS) screens? do you know if these specs are listed on the product specs on the website? How did you find out?

thanks,
Jeff


Hi Jeff,

This information is not listed on the website as far as I know.

I became immediately suspicious when noticing that Ultrasharp was not mentioned anywhere on the monitor and only in the invoice. When it was turned on, it just seemed too bright and washed out.

Was pretty busy and distracted this week, so it wasn't until yesterday that I realized something was definitely very wrong, that no amount of calibration or adjusting was going to solve. Saw mention of the TN issue in another forum and immediately googled the Dell model I had bought.


http://www.dellcommunity.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=dim_monitor&thread.id=84830#M84830



After going through these threads everything made sense and I was experiencing all the same poor quality symptoms.


http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&sku=320-5647


(Last is right link)

JeffrySG
02-08-2008, 11:07 AM
ok, thanks. I have a 19" ultra sharp that i love but I was looking at getting a 22 or 24" ultra sharp. I'll make sure that it isn't a TN screen before I buy now though!

cheers!
Jeff

Glendalough
02-08-2008, 11:14 AM
Can't get that last link to work properly. Have uploaded it as a zip and may work this way. It's what about 56 customers said after they bought this model, should be somewhere on the site.