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ben martin
01-28-2008, 07:31 AM
Hi Wavers,

This is not new but I would like to ask how many of you agree that Newtek should review the Layout/Modeler integration excluding the hub.

Meaning:
To satisfy both worlds (the pro-integration and the against-integration) why not integrate the Modeler and Layout in the same workspace like XSi and Maya?

See the GIF sequence example to understand what I mean, then just use the pool to better understand how many users agree or not with the integration.

Many thanks.

Steamthrower
01-28-2008, 10:22 AM
That's really the only way I've considered it being integrated...just two modes within the same program. Anything else would be another mess...

robewil
01-28-2008, 10:41 AM
I've traditionally been in the keep it separate crowd but this seems like a good idea.

dccpro
01-28-2008, 10:47 AM
I dont think it should be modeler and layout. I think it should be model and animate and the title bar should just say Lightwave.

Steamthrower
01-28-2008, 10:57 AM
93.75% are in favor of integration. Dat's screwin' da pooch right der.

Kuzey
01-28-2008, 11:00 AM
The speed of that gif is making my head hurt.....you should have made it slower :hey:

So, how would you handle working on multiple modeler projects while having layout render a scene at the same time.


Kuzey

Phil
01-28-2008, 11:04 AM
That's really the only way I've considered it being integrated...just two modes within the same program. Anything else would be another mess...

Really? One of the many strengths of integration would be animated modelling. This approach won't provide that any more than the current system.

evenflcw
01-28-2008, 11:09 AM
If you guys can only figure out two different modes I think you are too indoctrinated and not dreaming big enough. Model, animate, texture, ArchViz, composit...Why limit yourself to only two mutually exclusive interfaces when you could have several different ones arranged by different logic. Whether thy overlap or not is beside the point if it streamlines your current task.

I'd like them integrated, but not in the limited fashion the gif portrays. Ultimately it should be possible to call any function, whether it originated from modeler or layout, at any time (given it makes sense in the current context). The interface should not put shackles on what the core and user can and cannot do. We had that, we don't like it, and this is very likely why updating the core is taking so frigging long (ie the core and interface are tied to closely; bad design and coding practices of the old dev team).

To avoid a mess, all we need is an improved interface handler that comes with some preset workspaces, just like we have hotkey and menu presets today, and also allows for personal customized presets. Hopefully this customization will go beyond just the hotkey and menu layouts. That should make even the fanatic nostalgic happy as long as NT designs a preset that mimic the the old interfaces.

Steamthrower
01-28-2008, 11:44 AM
animated modelling
Of course. One program with two sectors, one, the "Modeler", in which you could open up multiple models, and another, the "Layout", in which everything was animatable and live-updating and whatnot.

cresshead
01-28-2008, 11:45 AM
''one app to rule them all''
...one to bind them...
a solitary, all powerful application that can bring the true power...and with power comes great responsibility to create a better world!

...err... lightwave!

Elmar Moelzer
01-28-2008, 12:17 PM
I really want to have viewports though that keep showing the object in object space, no matter what I do with it in Layout. This is one of the really nice things about LW. No matter what I do to the object in Layout, I can always go back to the original object make changes and update the object in Layout without having to fiddle with viewports to realign the object, etc (as it is in MAX, huge PITA).
Otherwise, I quite like that. I would even go further and have different Layouts to choose from (even user customizeable). E.g. one could have a mix for character setup (draw you bones and make your adjustments in a Modeler like viewport and see the effect of your changes in a Layout- like viewport.
CU
Elmar

cresshead
01-28-2008, 12:27 PM
actually over in max you have the isolate tool...which isolates your currently selected objects and places them in the centre of the world...something similar could be implemented in lightwave...once your done with your edit simply exit isolation and your back to your scene.

dccpro
01-28-2008, 12:28 PM
I think that could be done with modeling modes... Object, parent, world. The view ports could snap to whatever coordinate system you choose depending on what object you have selected. That would be a great feature!

ben martin
01-28-2008, 12:51 PM
If you guys can only figure out two different modes I think you are too indoctrinated and not dreaming big enough.
I also agree that this should be a deeper integration; "ala" XSi.

Nevertheless seems that this is not planned to near times.
I believe that loosing the HUB and work always in the same space is a huge improvement, specially because it would be possible to weight paint mesh and test the deformations right away without needing HUB sync and save object and bla... bla... bla...

This is the between term… not the perfect but better than the actual annoying one.

Annoying = Time consumer.

meathead
01-28-2008, 12:56 PM
Really? One of the many strengths of integration would be animated modelling. This approach won't provide that any more than the current system.

Agree, this is not a radical change from what we currently have, which is good in a way, because it would be easy to implement. I voted yes, but why wouldn't you?!?!?

Still, bugger fish to fry, like better dynamics and better CA has to be a bigger priority by v10.

Exception
01-28-2008, 01:17 PM
Why are we talking about this?

Nt has said numerous times it is going to integrate the two programs. It's the whole reason for extracting the modeler core...

Andyjaggy
01-28-2008, 01:18 PM
I like the idea of having a switch to jump between the two interfaces, however if you still don't have access to modeling tools and vertex manipulation within the layout environment it would defeat the whole point of merging the two. I'm sure Newtek has a plan on how they want to do it, it just may take another 5 years till we see it :)

AbnRanger
01-28-2008, 01:20 PM
Why are we talking about this?

Nt has said numerous times it is going to integrate the two programs. It's the whole reason for extracting the modeler core...Negative...only that they were going to integrate modeling functions into Layout. That's far short of merging both apps into one integrated environment.
They admited hitting a snag trying to accomplish this.

AbnRanger
01-28-2008, 01:23 PM
I'm sure Newtek has a plan on how they want to do it, it just may take another 5 years till we see it :)Considering that this whole ordeal started with the introduction to LW 9 at Siggraph '05...I'd say your prediction is likely an accurate one.

AbnRanger
01-28-2008, 01:43 PM
...I'm sure Newtek has a plan on how they want to do it, it just may take another 5 years till we see it :)Seeing that this whole core-rewrite began before Siggraph '05, and the only major additions have been Nodal surfacing and the Render re-write...your prediction is quite likely an accurate one.

Personally...and I know there are still some hurt egos between the two camps...but I think the most prudent thing for Newtek to do is seek a merger with Luxology (re-building burned bridges), and let their current development staff help build a 1st class CA system, particle system, and dynamics.
In the short term, they could continue to sell Modo and LW separately, as Autodesk did with Max and Maya after the Alias acquisition. This would certainly generate a lot of Marketing buzz for some time to come.
Modo already is what I'd like to see LW become save the remaining elements previously mentioned.

For Newtek, this would allow them to shed themselves of this headache, trying to integrate Modeler and Layout.
For Luxology, this would boost their development staff significantly

Steamthrower
01-28-2008, 01:47 PM
I'd say the chance of a merger between Luxology and NewTek only a few years after they split would be unlikely to say the least.

dccpro
01-28-2008, 01:53 PM
I really hope NT has something very big up their sleeve! It has been a long while since we have heard anything from them, but like i said before, with all the time and money that is being put into the videos that proton is doing, I question how much change is actually coming!

AbnRanger
01-28-2008, 01:55 PM
Sorry for the double post above...the darned 5 min edit rule..and then the post wasn't showing at all...

Only they know what was said and what explicitly happened, but if the two sides could humble themselves enough to see that it would make much better business sense for both of them, and that the Lux exec's would have equity among the staff at Newtek, it has the makings of a successful venture.

Andyjaggy
01-28-2008, 01:56 PM
chuck has stated that Proton can crank those out so fast that there is no reason to not supply as many as possible at the moment. Or something like that. I wouldn't take Newtek supplying us with good training material that nothing new is coming.

Steamthrower
01-28-2008, 02:10 PM
If anything I'd take it as preparation for a big new release...just hoping though.

Wouldn't it be cool if William accidentally released a new "Complete CA" video series on features that aren't in 9.3, and a new "How to Figure out the New Interface"...

dccpro
01-28-2008, 02:13 PM
chuck has stated that Proton can crank those out so fast that there is no reason to not supply as many as possible at the moment. Or something like that. I wouldn't take Newtek supplying us with good training material that nothing new is coming.

Chuck can say what he wants, but if the changes coming are what I am hoping and what NT has claimed, it would render those vids useless.

I am not questioning the quality of the training videos. I am questioning the future of LW!

And with no words from NT we are all left to speculate.

Wonderpup
01-28-2008, 02:41 PM
I think the decision to integrate was taken a long time ago, but i guess making it happen is no trivial task.

I'm currently learning XSI, and it's a curious experience in that there is a lot of similarity to lightwave in some ways, but XSI does score really high on workflow for me precisely because it's one seamless enviroment that means I spend less time looking out for booby traps and more time getting stuff done.

Andyjaggy
01-28-2008, 02:51 PM
I've been looking at XSI lately and they seem to have done a lot of things right, I wish they didn't have those cheesy looking buttons though. Uck.

Steamthrower
01-28-2008, 03:04 PM
Yeah, reminds me of Bryce. Argh. It's so not professional.

dccpro
01-28-2008, 03:09 PM
I too have been learning xsi for the last year or so, and they have done many things right!

I was just contracted to do a course on digital content creation, and was given the choice of what software i wanted to use. I was going to use LW, but I am seriously having second thoughts. I may end up going with XSI. I still feel more comfortable in LW, but the best way to learn is under pressure. so we will see. LWcad is the only reason I may still use LW! The set has a few houses that would take forever in XSI!

Andyjaggy
01-28-2008, 03:17 PM
Too bad XSI lost so much of it's market share when they shut down for a few years. Hopefully they will gain it back here in the future. competition is healthy.

dccpro
01-28-2008, 03:21 PM
Too bad XSI lost so much of it's market share when they shut down for a few years. Hopefully they will gain it back here in the future. competition is healthy.

what do you think is in a better spot LW or XSI?

Kuzey
01-29-2008, 02:37 AM
I voted no because it seems no one could answer my question :hey:

Kuzey

Kuzey
01-29-2008, 03:07 AM
You open a second instance of LightWave. Easy.


For PC's it might be easy, but heck I'm not going to copy LW and rename each one so I can work on multiple projects on a Mac.

:)

Kuzey

Kuzey
01-29-2008, 03:24 AM
Use a proper OS then :p It's downright silly not being able to launch an application twice, without jumping through hoops. I often run multiple instances of the same application and couldn't live without it.

No need to hold back progress on that account.

I actually see it as a major bug on the PC side...but that's me :D


Kuzey

rakker16mm
01-29-2008, 03:45 AM
Should Newtek integrate the Layout and Modeler in the same workspace?

Hmmm.... Well actually I do spend a lot of time shifting back and forth between modeler and layout especially when I am adjusting my terrains, but what I would prefer is having a synchronize in Real Time option from modeler to layout. Then with two monitors I could watch my scene in layout as I make changes in modeler. Having access to all of the tools in modeler could make rigging a lot easier. Need to change your weight map? No problem make the change and see the result in Layout.

I don't think I would want to work that way all the time, especially on big scenes but it would come in handy from time to time. Besides any one who wants to keep the apps completely separate would just keep the option unchecked.

Andyjaggy
01-29-2008, 09:04 AM
what do you think is in a better spot LW or XSI?

That would be hard to say, I think LW still has an edge in the marketplace and I think things will only get better in the near future with all the "great stuff" we are going to see happening. I currently think XSI has a better more modern app but I really don't hear much about it these days, and it seems like the user base is still pretty small but growing. Again I don't really know that's just my observation.

That is one thing that has always bugged me about OSX, running multiple instances of an app. You can work around it by just duplicating the executable file, but still. How do you see that as a bug Kuzey?

dccpro
01-29-2008, 09:15 AM
That would be hard to say, I think LW still has an edge in the marketplace and I think things will only get better in the near future with all the "great stuff" we are going to see happening. I currently think XSI has a better more modern app but I really don't hear much about it these days, and it seems like the user base is still pretty small but growing. Again I don't really know that's just my observation.
I will agree with the market share part of your statement for now! But it would take a miracle from god for LW to turn into the quality of program that XSI has become.

Exception
01-29-2008, 10:40 AM
Negative...only that they were going to integrate modeling functions into Layout. That's far short of merging both apps into one integrated environment.
They admited hitting a snag trying to accomplish this.

Positive.
Putting modeling into layout was step one of an integration process where one could choose to model in Layout or modeler depending on your preference. Therefore they cut loose the modeler core from the actual application.

They discovered it was harder to do than they thought so it'll still take a while, but integration is exactly what is on the agenda.

lardbros
01-29-2008, 10:58 AM
Positive.
Putting modeling into layout was step one of an integration process where one could choose to model in Layout or modeler depending on your preference. Therefore they cut loose the modeler core from the actual application.

They discovered it was harder to do than they thought so it'll still take a while, but integration is exactly what is on the agenda.

Im sure they haven't specifically said this. They have said that it has been harder to get some modelling functions in Layout than they had first thought, so it will take some time, but they never said anything about doing away with modeller.

dccpro
01-29-2008, 11:07 AM
would be nice for someone from NT to clear this all up for us! NT's credibility is fading rapidly in many minds, I am sure! All it would take is a few words as to their progress and intention.

theo
01-29-2008, 11:10 AM
Integration is a lateral issue. Really, it is.

I am for integration only if it is required by an expanding and advancing feature set.

Let the features drive the fusion between modeling and animating. Perhaps even a slow integration will be beneficial.

If integration requires a massive reallocation of brain juice then toss it.

Iain
01-29-2008, 11:12 AM
would be nice for someone from NT to clear this all up for us! NT's credibility is fading rapidly in many minds, I am sure! All it would take is a few words as to their progress and intention.

I keep hearing this same thing and can't help wonder why.

Newtek have greatly improved LightWave.
Newtek are currently working on further (major) improvements.

You don't hear anything for a month and all of a sudden, we're all doomed again.

Same goes for integration discussions. How many times do we have to go over the same thing? There's even a poll this time!

AbnRanger
01-29-2008, 11:15 AM
I keep hearing this same thing and can't help wonder why.

Newtek have greatly improved LightWave.
Newtek are currently working on further (major) improvements.

You don't hear anything for a month and all of a sudden, we're all doomed again.

Same goes for integration discussions. How many times do we have to go over the same thing? There's even a poll this time!Point to us then, where everything is nice and clear...integration or not.

dccpro
01-29-2008, 11:21 AM
well in my case the problem is that integration was promised when V9 was announced in 2005. It is now 08 and we are on 9.3.1 and no closer to integration. So pardon me if I am a little curious as to exactly when this will happen, or if plans have changed, or a single bit of info from NT!

Nicolas Jordan
01-29-2008, 11:23 AM
If layout and modeler really do become integrated in the near future I would give the current development team much credit for accomplishing something that the old development did not want to even attempt except for making the hub.

Nicolas Jordan
01-29-2008, 11:32 AM
what do you think is in a better spot LW or XSI?


Softimage will always be seen as a piece of high end software because of it's complexity and shear amount of options but Lightwave still holds it's own place with people who would rather avoid a heavy interface like what XSI has. I used Softimage 3D for a while in the late 90s before XSI hit the scene and I know first hand that many prefer Lightwaves lighter interface even though it may not have some of the options that XSI/Softimage has. XSI is a great piece of software but it seems to only appeal to a certain group of 3d users who don't feel intimidated by it's interface.

Iain
01-29-2008, 11:38 AM
well in my case the problem is that integration was promised when V9 was announced in 2005. It is now 08 and we are on 9.3.1 and no closer to integration. So pardon me if I am a little curious as to exactly when this will happen, or if plans have changed, or a single bit of info from NT!

That's what happens with software development, especially major rewrites. You give an indication of where you want to go and subsequent successful developments dictate that you don't end up there when you thought or at all.

Precisely why NT won't publish a roadmap or commit to anything concrete anymore.

cagey5
01-29-2008, 11:40 AM
well in my case the problem is that integration was promised when V9 was announced in 2005. ...


Could you confirm where that promise to integrate was made. This has been a discussion topic for may years and I remember it as Lardbros does in his reply above, i.e. some modelling functions in Layout but no confirmation of full integration.

dccpro
01-29-2008, 11:43 AM
Well you can take that stand, but 3 years into it, I sincerely hope they have figured out what they are planning on doing. If they haven't by now they never will!

Nicolas Jordan
01-29-2008, 11:49 AM
Could you confirm where that promise to integrate was made. This has been a discussion topic for may years and I remember it as Lardbros does in his reply above, i.e. some modelling functions in Layout but no confirmation of full integration.


Before the release of 9.0 there was a development road map posted on the Lightwave page detailing what future dev plans were for the 9 cycle. This has since disappeared without a trace a short while after the 9 release. Newtek never promised anything that was on that document that I can remember but it is inevitable that some may take it that way.

dccpro
01-29-2008, 11:50 AM
Could you confirm where that promise to integrate was made. This has been a discussion topic for may years and I remember it as Lardbros does in his reply above, i.e. some modelling functions in Layout but no confirmation of full integration.

Well modeling in layout was promised! I would have been fine with that! It wasnt till after I payed for my upgrade that they said it was too hard for them to figure out how to do it, and it would be later in the 9X cycle. I was even ok with that, but the 9X cycle is looking like a five year project and no info from NT as to what will really be on the other end, THAT I AM NOT COOL WITH!

We did get that modeling tools tab in layout. I use them all the time, great feature.:thumbsdow
Its things like that that worry me about NT!

cresshead
01-29-2008, 12:08 PM
yeah ever since we lost the 'lens cap' filter from lightwave 7.5 things have been terrible!

and modeling a lens cap is really tough...esp trying to fix it onto the camera and keeping it on!....grrr!!

we really could do with a gaffer tape primative over in modeler.

:stumped:

dccpro
01-29-2008, 12:11 PM
That was one of the better features, just like the modeling tab in layout.

Andyjaggy
01-29-2008, 12:15 PM
Gaffer tape primitive. You guys crack me up. I love this community.

Any info Netwek................

dccpro
01-29-2008, 12:16 PM
yeah, any info NT?

AbnRanger
01-29-2008, 01:37 PM
Is Jay even around? Been quite a while since his last newsletter.

Steamthrower
01-29-2008, 01:43 PM
There was a sign on the lawn at a drug rehab center next door to the NewTek offices that said "Keep off the Grass". I'm guessing that this is limiting their ability to talk to us.

Just kidding. I love NT. :D

theo
01-29-2008, 01:53 PM
A man-crunching-through-deep-snow sound is emanating from the NT bowel.

Wonderpup
01-29-2008, 02:12 PM
I am for integration only if it is required by an expanding and advancing feature set.

I would say that integration is the biggest missing 'feature' at the moment. Almost all of my frustrations with Lightwave can be traced back to the fact that the app is split apart.

I don't think it's true to say that XSI is that much harder to use than Lightwave, except when it comes to rendering. Mental Ray is a monster, and one I would rather not have to deal with.

Lightwaves strengh has always been it's combination of great looking results and ease of use in modeling and surfacing/rendering. It's in the animation area that things really fall apart- if NT can crack that they will really have something.

Earl
01-29-2008, 04:20 PM
Im sure they haven't specifically said this. They have said that it has been harder to get some modelling functions in Layout than they had first thought, so it will take some time, but they never said anything about doing away with modeller.
It was a while ago, but from their press release it was seriously implied that Layout will someday be able to do EVERYTHING that Modeler can, in a single workspace, but that the Modeler environment will be preserved for those who prefer it that way.

My interpretation that I got from the pre release is that in the end there will be ONE lightwave.exe file that allows the application to open up with different user interfaces, some that look like Modeler only, some that have it all, and others that can hopefully be customized for any assortment of tasks.

The press release that I got that from is here:
http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/08-01-05a.html

Exact quote specific to this topic is:
"so many users who have expressed a preference for a single workspace for all model and scene creation will find Layout well on its way to being that single workspace. Those who prefer a dedicated workspace for modeling tasks can retain that workflow with Modeler,as NewTek will continue to develop and provide this unique streamlined environment for model creation."


Of course... I could be completely off the mark and delusioned by wishful thinking... :foreheads

dccpro
01-29-2008, 04:35 PM
No, your dead on! and this was suposesd to be at the release of v9. Then when a bunch of people preordered they said that it was to hard for them to figure out and it would come later in the 9x cycle. They also changed the feature list at that point as well!

I dont understand why NT is so against letting us know excacly where they are with this. Is the progress that bad that they have nothing to show or tell?

Nicolas Jordan
01-29-2008, 05:16 PM
It was a while ago, but from their press release it was seriously implied that Layout will someday be able to do EVERYTHING that Modeler can, in a single workspace, but that the Modeler environment will be preserved for those who prefer it that way.

My interpretation that I got from the pre release is that in the end there will be ONE lightwave.exe file that allows the application to open up with different user interfaces, some that look like Modeler only, some that have it all, and others that can hopefully be customized for any assortment of tasks.

The press release that I got that from is here:
http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/08-01-05a.html

Exact quote specific to this topic is:
"so many users who have expressed a preference for a single workspace for all model and scene creation will find Layout well on its way to being that single workspace. Those who prefer a dedicated workspace for modeling tasks can retain that workflow with Modeler,as NewTek will continue to develop and provide this unique streamlined environment for model creation."


Of course... I could be completely off the mark and delusioned by wishful thinking... :foreheads


The quote says "well on it's way". I would interpret that as a partial implementation. As its stands there is some limited modeler functionality in layout although it's incredibly clumsy at best and in my opinion not well on it's way from what can be seen.

Exception
01-29-2008, 09:48 PM
Newtek have greatly improved LightWave.
Newtek are currently working on further (major) improvements.

You don't hear anything for a month and all of a sudden, we're all doomed again.


Quoted for agreement.
Jay has been around, trust me, eventhough you might have missed some of his community input. I appreciate that the small Lightwave team spends more time coding than chatting on the forums.

the whole reason for putting modeling functions into layout was to integrate the two fields. Nobody wants modeler to go away as it has too many advantages as a separate application. Hence the direction NT went with this to allow both modeling in layout and a separate modeling application. Nt is trying to jump the development curve, to end up somewhere that most applications are trying to get to. This takes time, dedication and effort.

comparing lightwave to XSI is reasonably useless. to get the same out of XSI you can get out of LW means a tenfold investment. Of course XSI will do more then when you plunk down the thousands of dollars. LW has been good at specific things for a very low price, and continues to do so. The improvements of the new team have been progressively impressive and there is no reason to doubt the continuation of this improvement.

Newtek has been bitten too many times by stating a certain intent and then due to technical difficulties having to delay these issues. Obviously they won't repeat that mistake. It serves those that criticize the v9 trajectory well to remember we are not even half way and unlike many of the other applications we pay nothing for our point releases.

I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement, but improvements are happening as we speak, and even though patience is a hard thing to cope with, it is what is necessary to see what is happening. If you regard the improvements to the render engine alone (from old and outdated to pretty cutting edge) you can see some exemplary development.

It might help to know that Iain and myself are among the most vocally critical members of the long standing Lightwave user group. We've never hidden our criticism and will never do so. But credit is due when it is due, and NT is doing a fantastic job.

Nicolas Jordan
01-29-2008, 09:57 PM
Quoted for agreement.
Jay has been around, trust me, eventhough you might have missed some of his community input. I appreciate that the small Lightwave team spends more time coding than chatting on the forums.

the whole reason for putting modeling functions into layout was to integrate the two fields. Nobody wants modeler to go away as it has too many advantages as a separate application. Hence the direction NT went with this to allow both modeling in layout and a separate modeling application. Nt is trying to jump the development curve, to end up somewhere that most applications are trying to get to. This takes time, dedication and effort.

comparing lightwave to XSI is reasonably useless. to get the same out of XSI you can get out of LW means a tenfold investment. Of course XSI will do more then when you plunk down the thousands of dollars. LW has been good
at specific things for a very low price, and continues to do so. The improvements of the new team have been progressively impressive and there is no reason to doubt the continuation of this improvement.

Newtek has been bitten too many times by stating a certain intent and then due to technical difficulties having to delay these issues. Obviously they won't repeat that mistake. It serves those that criticize the v9 trajectory well to remember we are not even half way and unlike many of the other applications we pay nothing for our point releases.

I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement, but improvements are happening as we speak, and even though patience is a hard thing to cope with, it is what is necessary to see what is happening. If you regard the improvements to the render engine alone (from old and outdated to pretty cutting edge) you can see some exemplary development.

It might help to know that Iain and myself are among the most vocally critical members of the long standing Lightwave user group. We've never hidden our criticism and will never do so. But credit is due when it is due, and NT is doing a fantastic job.
:agree: Well said.

ngrava
01-29-2008, 10:30 PM
The thing that I worry about is that people don't understand what it is about the two separate programs that makes it work for them, they just know it works and therefor, should not be changed. But, when you look at the real reasons why it's good, you realize that it can still work within one application, you just have to keep some of the same functionality. For instance, on of the great things about having modeler separate is that you can model independent of the rigging process and in fact, continue to change the model even after you have started animating. This is a great advantage in the commercial industry where clients often can't make up their minds till the very last minute.
AS long as NewTek understands this greatness of flexability and includes this as a feature within an integrated environment, I don't see what the harm would be.

On a side note, I have always thought that it would be possable to write a modeler "plug-in", within Layout. it would work like this: say you added a new "poly Object" to your scene just like a Null. Then in the Object properties of the new object, you would see an Object or deformation plugin called Modeler. When you clicked on this it would open up a new window with all the tools you need. You could even design it so that there was a bunch of different plug ins performing specific tasks that could be layered on top of each other to form a sort of modeling stack/history like in Max and XSI. So you could have a mesh edit operator with an extrude on top and a bevel on top of that. When you change something in the mesh editor, it would automatically propagate up through the operators. Christ, you could have a whole nodal modeling flow window that you could use to drive all sorts of strange Houdini like procedural workflow's. Why stop there? I Mean, if you think about it we kind of have that now with the deformation class plugins. One plugin take the output of the one on top of it and does something with it. In concept, it's really not that far off. the API would need to become a lot more robust but I think if we are thinking about the future of LightWave, something like this needs to happen eventually.

Make sense?

AbnRanger
01-29-2008, 11:18 PM
The thing that I worry about is that people don't understand what it is about the two separate programs that makes it work for them, they just know it works and therefor, should not be changed. But, when you look at the real reasons why it's good, you realize that it can still work within one application, you just have to keep some of the same functionality. For instance, on of the great things about having modeler separate is that you can model independent of the rigging process and in fact, continue to change the model even after you have started animating. This is a great advantage in the commercial industry where clients often can't make up their minds till the very last minute.
AS long as NewTek understands this greatness of flexability and includes this as a feature within an integrated environment, I don't see what the harm would be.

On a side note, I have always thought that it would be possable to write a modeler "plug-in", within Layout. it would work like this: say you added a new "poly Object" to your scene just like a Null. Then in the Object properties of the new object, you would see an Object or deformation plugin called Modeler. When you clicked on this it would open up a new window with all the tools you need. You could even design it so that there was a bunch of different plug ins performing specific tasks that could be layered on top of each other to form a sort of modeling stack/history like in Max and XSI. So you could have a mesh edit operator with an extrude on top and a bevel on top of that. When you change something in the mesh editor, it would automatically propagate up through the operators. Christ, you could have a whole nodal modeling flow window that you could use to drive all sorts of strange Houdini like procedural workflow's. Why stop there? I Mean, if you think about it we kind of have that now with the deformation class plugins. One plugin take the output of the one on top of it and does something with it. In concept, it's really not that far off. the API would need to become a lot more robust but I think if we are thinking about the future of LightWave, something like this needs to happen eventually.

Make sense?In theory it sounds great, but in practice...it's not as good as advertised. You have a bunch of operators or modifiers stacked upon one another... works great in Max, but you start jacking with the underlaying mesh once those operators have been added...you're going to get a mangled mess much of the time.

dccpro
01-29-2008, 11:35 PM
Newtek has been bitten too many times by stating a certain intent and then due to technical difficulties having to delay these issues. Obviously they won't repeat that mistake. It serves those that criticize the v9 trajectory well to remember we are not even half way and unlike many of the other applications we pay nothing for our point releases.

I am not asking what will be done in the next year or two. I am asking what has been done up until now.

And your right, we don't pay for updates, but I would rather pay for updates then wait 5 years between versions! LW 9 was at siggraph 05 its now 08 and we are on 9.3.1.

So I don't think its too much to ask for NT to give us some info!

Do you think that their tight lipped approach is making people more confident in their progress? As opposed to keeping people updated?

The only way I could see their no communication do them any good is if they have something really unbelievable to show us. Otherwise its just going to piss people off more!

Hopefully they are hard at work and when they release 9.whatever we will all be amazed, and forget about the long silence!

meshpig
01-30-2008, 12:58 AM
Hi Wavers,

This is not new but I would like to ask how many of you agree that Newtek should review the Layout/Modeler integration excluding the hub.

Meaning:
To satisfy both worlds (the pro-integration and the against-integration) why not integrate the Modeler and Layout in the same workspace like XSi and Maya?

See the GIF sequence example to understand what I mean, then just use the pool to better understand how many users agree or not with the integration.

Many thanks.

Maya crashes just as much, same thing as you are saying... but there's no Hub to blame. Big deal.

m:)

rdrdrd23
01-30-2008, 01:40 AM
I was never in the `one tool` camp until I did lots of weighting in LW and Maya at the same time. Irrespective of whichever software you champion, they both have strengths and weaknesses, but weighting in modeler and switching to layout ot see the results was less-than-ideal (expletive deleted for fear of offending ladies).

(Incidentally, why is the weight painting airbrush *sooo* slow???)

Lewis
01-30-2008, 02:34 AM
Hopefully they are hard at work and when they release 9.whatever we will all be amazed, and forget about the long silence!

Hi dccpro !

I understand that you are worried and think LW will go down if they don't show us something spectacular soon but guess what - that's the way since Amiga died in 90's - many users then predicted sudden death of LW and it's been 10+ years since then and we are still live and kicking :).

Yes NT mentioned some things in 9.x what aren't currently IN but we are on 9.3.1 so there is lot more ahead so why to judge them now ? Jay said numerous of times they still plan to do what they said eariler so I trust him.

Do you remember how BIG update was 9.2 ? Nobody from NT promissed new Radiosity update and yet we got it as a nice surprise :). So yes we didn't get modeler tools in layout (properly) but we got other things what even wasn't been announced and they are very big DEAL/feature.

We all need to be critical to LW sometime (to make it better :)) but sometime we also need to praise things what are done properly and new Developers really done some "magic" stuff with that old code of LW. Some long standing bugs are fixed and some new things added to SDK (FPRIME is able to render NODES is a big step)


So since Sig 2005 and LW 9, we got LW 9.2 with very very much of new things (I don't remember any SW gave such big update as .2 upgrade ??) and then we got 9.3 as pretty nice upgrade and 9.3.1 as a 100+ killed bugs update/maintence patch. So we actually got 3 versions so it's not that slow as you would think. Also there is many many SDK updates what we users don't see but look at how many cool plugins we got beacuse of those SDK updates. That's something what also needs time and knowledge to update.

So basically I want to say - take it easy and use what you have (9.3.1 is pretty capable) and don't worry about roadmap or Chuck spilling the beans NOW ;). They will tell us when it's ready and IMHO that's better than announcing 3+ months in advance and then users waiting for release like it's no tomorrow and going crazy on FORUMS with "is it there" questions :).

Kuzey
01-30-2008, 04:11 AM
That is one thing that has always bugged me about OSX, running multiple instances of an app. You can work around it by just duplicating the executable file, but still. How do you see that as a bug Kuzey?

Sorry I didn't see your question until now :D

I see it as a bug because it's not standard behavior on the Mac side, we can open a new window within Mac apps...if you need to open an instance then there is something wrong and plus it takes over the Dock/task bar thingy with all those copies.

Kuzey

Lightwolf
01-30-2008, 04:41 AM
So it's a bug because OSX is limited in this functionality? I don't follow that reasoning.
No, a bug because LW doesn't follow the platforms design guidlines.

Single app, multiple documents. LW doesn't allow for that.

Cheers,
Mike

Wonderpup
01-30-2008, 05:08 AM
It serves those that criticize the v9 trajectory well to remember we are not even half way and unlike many of the other applications we pay nothing for our point releases.

It's been made pretty clear that the modeler integration will now probably not be in the 9 cycle, which I am not happy about, but, to be fair, I can see there is a major financial issue with effectively giving away years of development work for free in point updates. I think for the really radical changes we are looking at a paid update to 10, and most people will probably be ok with this.

bobakabob
01-30-2008, 05:22 AM
Hi dccpro !

I understand that you are worried and think LW will go down if they don't show us something spectacular soon but guess what - that's the way since Amiga died in 90's - many users then predicted sudden death of LW and it's been 10+ years since then and we are still live and kicking :).

Yes NT mentioned some things in 9.x what aren't currently IN but we are on 9.3.1 so there is lot more ahead so why to judge them now ? Jay said numerous of times they still plan to do what they said eariler so I trust him.

Do you remember how BIG update was 9.2 ? Nobody from NT promissed new Radiosity update and yet we got it as a nice surprise :). So yes we didn't get modeler tools in layout (properly) but we got other things what even wasn't been announced and they are very big DEAL/feature.

We all need to be critical to LW sometime (to make it better :)) but sometime we also need to praise things what are done properly and new Developers really done some "magic" stuff with that old code of LW. Some long standing bugs are fixed and some new things added to SDK (FPRIME is able to render NODES is a big step)


So since Sig 2005 and LW 9, we got LW 9.2 with very very much of new things (I don't remember any SW gave such big update as .2 upgrade ??) and then we got 9.3 as pretty nice upgrade and 9.3.1 as a 100+ killed bugs update/maintence patch. So we actually got 3 versions so it's not that slow as you would think. Also there is many many SDK updates what we users don't see but look at how many cool plugins we got beacuse of those SDK updates. That's something what also needs time and knowledge to update.

So basically I want to say - take it easy and use what you have (9.3.1 is pretty capable) and don't worry about roadmap or Chuck spilling the beans NOW ;). They will tell us when it's ready and IMHO that's better than announcing 3+ months in advance and then users waiting for release like it's no tomorrow and going crazy on FORUMS with "is it there" questions :).

Wise words Lewis :beerchug:

dccpro
01-30-2008, 10:21 AM
I see a lot of people with a lot of blind faith around here!

If I don't have modeling in layout before V10, I have been ripped off, and NT will have one less customer. They will have lied to sell their product, and thats not cool!

Iain
01-30-2008, 10:52 AM
I see a lot of people with a lot of blind faith around here!

If I don't have modeling in layout before V10, I have been ripped off, and NT will have one less customer. They will have lied to sell their product, and thats not cool!

If it doesn't happen in 9.x, what won't you be able to do using the seperate modeller?

Sorry to be pedantic, I just don't understand your level of frustration over this one issue when there are so many others to be addressed.

You are talking about a promised change rather than a new feature so I'm not sure how you can feel 'ripped off'.

dccpro
01-30-2008, 11:06 AM
it was one of the only reasons I upgraded instead of buying a different package, which i eventually did anyway!

If they couldn't do it by the release of v9, I can understand that, but if they cant do it in 3 years, then There is no need for me to put any faith in NT's development!

And as for what lewis said about the render upgrade that wasn't in the feature list.
Could you imagine the old LW renderer competing with the other renderer's on the market today. They had to update the GI and the AA if they didn't want to be laughed at!

cresshead
01-30-2008, 11:12 AM
i see there's abit of frustration creeping thru in some posts...yeah were were told that modeler would be put into layout in the 9 cycle so i can see how some now think that they paid for a future feature which will not make it into 9 now and so they'll in essence be ''paying again'' to get the same feature into lightwave 10...but that's just how it crumbles cookie wise...on the other hand of course we were NOT promised a new renderer, ...and we have got new camera lenses modeled on real world cameras and nodes plus a new scene format [9.2 and above] as well as a load of tweeks here n there...

and we're only on 9.3...so a potential 7 more point updates possibly...and yup it's taking a long time..agreed..still...have a look at what came in the paid for update of combustion 2008...not exactly setting the world on fire with new features in comparison...

yes it's a long trip for version 9...and we have several passengers now getting uncomfortable and venting 'are we there yet''?

...still...have a look over at modo and they have a loooong way to go before they're a ''full application''...everyone's either taking their time on development in apps or running outn of ideas as to what to put into the next versions..

speaking of which max and maya have a couple of years left before they will be replaced...

lightwave has to balance the short term goal of this update and also look waaay ahead to stand tall next to modo when it finally gets a complete feature set and the new autodesk 3d app comes to market...

lightwave 10 has a lot of things needed to be brought into play and 9 is really a stepping stone to 10 i think....nice stones though!

dccpro
01-30-2008, 11:17 AM
So is that what has been stated, NO modeling in layout in V9.X? I didn't hear that yet.

Iain
01-30-2008, 11:26 AM
Could you imagine the old LW renderer competing with the other renderer's on the market today. They had to update the GI and the AA if they didn't want to be laughed at!

Actually, my thoughts were that with the advent of FPrime and Kray, they could have gone down the Autodesk route and left render engine development to others.

I'm still curious; why the overriding importance of integration?

dccpro
01-30-2008, 11:37 AM
because it is what I payed for!

Lightwolf
01-30-2008, 11:48 AM
So is that what has been stated, NO modeling in layout in V9.X? I didn't hear that yet.
It was stated a few months ago by Jay Roth, who even apologized for the modelling tools not making it due to unforseen complications.
To be quite honest, I'd rather see them do it right for 10 than wasting time to fudge some half-working modeler plugins into Layout.

Cheers,
Mike

dccpro
01-30-2008, 12:00 PM
It was stated a few months ago by Jay Roth, who even apologized for the modelling tools not making it due to unforseen complications.
To be quite honest, I'd rather see them do it right for 10 than wasting time to fudge some half-working modeler plugins into Layout.

Cheers,
Mike
Isn't that what they already did?

Lightwolf
01-30-2008, 12:12 PM
Isn't that what they already did?
Yup, but no more than that. I.e. no mesh selection in Layout.

Cheers,
Mike

Lewis
01-30-2008, 12:28 PM
it was one of the only reasons I upgraded instead of buying a different package, which i eventually did anyway!

If they couldn't do it by the release of v9, I can understand that, but if they cant do it in 3 years, then There is no need for me to put any faith in NT's development!

And as for what lewis said about the render upgrade that wasn't in the feature list.
Could you imagine the old LW renderer competing with the other renderer's on the market today. They had to update the GI and the AA if they didn't want to be laughed at!

Good Luck with finding application with ROAD MAP and all features promissed/included. If that's your priority #1 you'll be changing apps A LOT.

I'd like to hear your so big problem 'coz modeling tools aren't included in layout currently. Can you show me issue what you CAN'T do with current LW and you would with future to be modeling in layout ? Not function/tool but real problem/situation.

dccpro
01-30-2008, 12:40 PM
You are just trying to belittle my legitimate gripe.
But I will bite,
I cant select points in layout move them and keyframe them. Yes I know sockey monkey, but thats not what I am talking about! or edit fx!

Why are you trying to make me look bad for having a legitimate gripe?
What do you say to all the people that upgraded because they were told they would have modeling in layout!

Can you give me an example of another software company that gave a feature list and then didn't deliver! (The major ones)

Iain
01-30-2008, 12:53 PM
You are just trying to belittle my legitimate gripe.
But I will bite,
I cant select points in layout move them and keyframe them. Yes I know sockey monkey, but thats not what I am talking about! or edit fx!



You can use morphs or bones for that.

Honestly, your gripe doesn't seem to hold a lot of water. That's why people are challenging it. You really upgraded and have taken the hump because of this?

Exception
01-30-2008, 12:56 PM
Why are you trying to make me look bad for having a legitimate gripe?
What do you say to all the people that upgraded because they were told they would have modeling in layout!

You say 'We're very sorry!', and move on, and that is exactly what Jay Roth did.
If you want your money back I'm sure NT will accomodate you. They've never been difficult about these matters. What more do you want?

How many companies have you ever seen that said 'sorry' in public?
And to not repeat that mistake NT is no longer publicly displaying their roadmap, so they don't have to say sorry again. And then people complain about that. NT is between a rock and a hard place.. damned if they do damned if they don't.

Wonderpup
01-30-2008, 12:58 PM
I'm still curious; why the overriding importance of integration?

It really depends on the work you do. I had no real problems untill I tried to create a character that deformed in a predictable way and found that there was no way to both pose my character and model morph targets at the same time- I was reduced to making changes blind in modeler then going back to layout to test, making more changes, going back to test,ect ect. It gets really old ,really fast.

That is an obvious advantage- another is the ability to model and see the model through the camera you will be rendering with.

A lot of the benefits of integration are quite subtle, but overall the workflow advantages are so great it surprises me that there is anyone left who argues the other way.

Also, when talking about modeling in layout, this was touted as a major feature of nine and did persuade me to stay with lightwave rather than learn XSI, which I am now finaly doing- but I resent more than anything the lost 'learning time' that the overblown claims for 9 cost me- had I made the move when 9 came out, instead of waiting for the 'new' lightwave, I would be far more proficiant in XSI than I currently am.

So. for me, NT's false claims for 9 have had a real negative impact on my situation, and I cannot help feeling a bit conned by a lot of what was being said when 9 was announced- clearly in retrospect those claims were at best wildly optimistic, and at worst a cynical attempt to keep the userbase 'locked in' for a few more years.

What I would really like to see now is a lightwave ten that will blow us away and then all this stuff will be totaly irrelevant.

*Pete*
01-30-2008, 01:01 PM
im very conservative about the way LW is and always as been.
but..i would sacrifice a lot (of the cats in my avatar), if i would be able to have the camera view in modeller viewport, or to be able to modell in the camera view in layout.

dccpro
01-30-2008, 01:05 PM
You can use morphs or bones for that.


Oh ok... now you sound stupid. If you dont know what I am saying, maybe we shouldnt even be having this conversation!

What? a weight map and a bone for every point on my object?

Steamthrower
01-30-2008, 01:17 PM
Oh ok... now you sound stupid. If you dont know what I am saying, maybe we shouldnt even be having this conversation!

What? a weight map and a bone for every point on my object?

Seriously. Please. Iain's stupidity?

I think most of us want integration...and we want it sooner than later...but all I know is that Lightwave has paid for itself over and over for me. I'm content.

dccpro
01-30-2008, 01:26 PM
I think the problem here is that many of you don't realize that some of us upgraded to LW 9 only because it was supposed to be integrating the apps!

Like Wonderpup, I would not have upgraded if there was no integration. I also would have bought XSI and went down that road, which i did anyway, but not until NT got my money too, Based on lies!

So my point is, if you only upgraded because of the promise of one app! you seriously got ripped off!

Iain
01-30-2008, 01:27 PM
I'm not saying integration is bad. I'm accepting the fact we don't have it yet and that there are perfectly feasible ways of doing just about everything the way it is just now.

Integration should greatly improve a lot of those things but what if it doesn't? It's not a quick fix so how would we feel if we had an integrated application already but it set a hundred other things back?
That would do Newtek's reputation a lot of good.

Steamthrower
01-30-2008, 01:37 PM
Echoing what Iain's saying, and adding what I need personally: I need better rigging, animation, instancing, and all that much more than I need integration. I'd rather see those come first.

dccpro
01-30-2008, 01:40 PM
instancing is another that was promised that i am still waiting for, but at least we have hd instance!

actually i think all that you asked was in the original feature list for v9

Steamthrower
01-30-2008, 01:42 PM
Or the v9 cycle?

Exception
01-30-2008, 02:23 PM
So my point is, if you only upgraded because of the promise of one app! you seriously got ripped off!

Meanwhile you're totally ignoring my comments.
I feel you're just arguing for aguing's sake.
Yes, you have a legitimate gripe. Yes it has been an issue. But, you've had your public 'sorry', you have the ability to get your money back. What ELSE do you expect?

dccpro
01-30-2008, 02:34 PM
you have the ability to get your money back. What ELSE do you expect?

Are you sure about that? That is a bold statement to make if it is not the case!
Doesnt really matter anyway, because the plugs i own are worth 3 times as much as LW and I cant get my money back for them, plus I need LW for a work to be done!

If NT is giving refunds to unsatisfied customers, that would be nice to know, cause I do know a few people that will take them up on that!

Steamthrower
01-30-2008, 02:38 PM
They do give refunds. Pretty generously. I don't know if you've ever dealt with NT's customer service but they're pretty durn nice folks.

Lightwolf
01-30-2008, 02:57 PM
Can you give me an example of another software company that gave a feature list and then didn't deliver! (The major ones)
NT didn't give a feature list, it posted an article on planned features (now go and find a major company that discloses a roadmap to the general public).
A roadmap in software development is a list of planned features - but doesn't guarantee that they'll make it. Which is why software developers are very careful about making them public in the first place.
In this case it was a mistake by NT, because it gave users a false sense of coming features (you are a prime example). At that point in time apparently they felt they had little choice though (loads of doom and gloom going on).

On the other hand, you paid for something that didn't exist at that point in time - and got something different instead. You can partially blame NT for offering LW like that - then again, you could have just purchased when LW had the features you want - not when they were "promised".

Cheers,
Mike

geothefaust
01-30-2008, 03:04 PM
They do give refunds. Pretty generously. I don't know if you've ever dealt with NT's customer service but they're pretty durn nice folks.

They sure are. Best customer service I've ever dealt with. Period.

Lewis
01-30-2008, 03:11 PM
You are just trying to belittle my legitimate gripe.
But I will bite,
I cant select points in layout move them and keyframe them. Yes I know sockey monkey, but thats not what I am talking about! or edit fx!

Why are you trying to make me look bad for having a legitimate gripe?
What do you say to all the people that upgraded because they were told they would have modeling in layout!

Can you give me an example of another software company that gave a feature list and then didn't deliver! (The major ones)

No I'm not doing anything to your legitimate "whining". I'm just saying I'm happy with LW (currently) and can do EVERYTHING with it and you are not so what's holding you here then :)? Also your suggestion is not what I was asking for (sorry if i wasn't been clear). I need real stuff from project - i.e. to show me real project where you can't do something (show me render/animation from other software) and we will show you that it's possible in LW. Surely it might be different solution - slower or faster but it's POSSIBLE. For instance I dislike 3DSMax interface and constant Edit poly, edit mesh edit... modes In/out to subpatch and modifier stack wiht lot of scrolling is ugly and slow workflow for me but I use it when I need it and accept it's cons and pros :). In Lw i just hit TAB on/off and work faster but same that 3DSMax have some other things better/faster so i don't whine why is it not like in LW. It's just different principle/idea/workflow and that must be accepted. So you can't select points in Layout but like I said there is always way to achieve specific results in LW :).

Give me link to Software company (3D major ones as you say) what publicly showed ROAD MAP and i'll show you what they didn't deliver from it into new version. Simple as that ALL of them miss their predicted features or time for deliver and similar stuff. But as exception said not many of them would apologise/admit that they were wrong in prediction and it will take longer but they still WILL deliver what's promised there.

I don't want to argue wiht you so if you aren't happy with LW you at least can SELL to some future happy LW user unlike some other MAJOR softwareS :) :).

Exception
01-30-2008, 03:17 PM
Are you sure about that? That is a bold statement to make if it is not the case!

yes.


Doesnt really matter anyway, because the plugs i own are worth 3 times as much as LW and I cant get my money back for them, plus I need LW for a work to be done!

Okay so you got the upgrade to lw 9 for other reasons than modeling in layout? Then why are you saying that?
You can just give them back the upgrade and work with lw 8, if you prefer. Go ahead.

Lightwolf
01-30-2008, 03:20 PM
Surely it might be different solution - slower or faster but it's POSSIBLE.
That's exactly the issue though. Of course, we could all use a text editor and PovRay... it might be slower but possible to get the same solution ;)

Here's a few reasons as to why LW ought to be merged:


In context modelling: I usually assemble complex objects in Layout, because it gives me a lot more flexibility. However, being able to model within the context of the final mesh would be very, very valuable indeed (real world example: A steel girder bridge, think Sydney Harbour: Every girder a single mesh, assembled in Layout - then you need to tweak the areas where the girders are connected)
The reasons not to model as a single mesh: flexibility and display and render speed.

In camera modelling: I often match move and need to model to match the camera view of my scene. Possible in LW... but for my last project switching to modo was a lot more worthwhile and saved days of time.

Asset management: Run Layout and Modeler with the same assets and you store them twice in memory. It is just a waste - and updating via the hub can take ages for heavy geometry (This is due to the way I work: Progressive refinement on the complete project until either the deadline or the budget hits me - start simple, then build up until the fat lady sings).

But, while I'm all for integration, even reading the initial announcements I never expected a full modelling environment in Layout... and I'd rather wait to see it done right.

Cheers,
Mike
(I just noticed, I didn't even mention CA...)

Lewis
01-30-2008, 03:36 PM
Mike I'm all IN for integration so don't explain me :D I'm just saying it's possible to do it even now when it's non integrated :) :).

I've done camera matching numerous of times (finsihed one just few days ago) and YES i know it can be PITA but it's doable - my point :). I even remember one tutorial of proton or someone else where he did show camera matching modeling in LAYOUT with moving points through Cloth effects added so you can select points in layout and match them to camera planar mapping backgorund image. Not most elegant solution but like i said its DOABLE ;).

I voted YES for integration and i know what would be benefits of integrated app even wiht my current workflow where I really like to finish modeling completely before any texturing or animating or so ;).

Lightwolf
01-30-2008, 03:43 PM
Not most elegant solution but like i said its DOABLE ;).
Of course it is, nobody doubts that. As it would be with a text editor (screw POVRay, get a compiler and write your own renderer ;) ).

See, I'm lazy (which is why I code)... I'll probably rather switch to a tool that saves me time when working (but needs time to learn) than spend the same amount of time, if not more, using a clumsy solution. Doable, yes. Effective? *ahem* ;)

Then again, we do agree to agree, so stop arguing, will 'ya? :D

Cheers,
Mike

dccpro
01-30-2008, 03:46 PM
Give me link to Software company (3D major ones as you say) what publicly showed ROAD MAP and i'll show you what they didn't deliver from it into new version. Simple as that ALL of them miss their predicted features or time for deliver and similar stuff. But as exception said not many of them would apologise/admit that they were wrong in prediction and it will take longer but they still WILL deliver what's promised there.
This is my point! Other software companies sell there product based on features that they offer! Not con their customers into upgrading with a feature list that they know will never be possible! And thats exactly what NT did!

How about animatable modeling operations, Lathe, extrude, boleenes...
or direct point manipulation and key framing.
I feel like a broken record!
I would list a thousand more benefits but I think its pretty obvious why its better to have one app!

I am happy that you are happy with your LW9 upgrade lewis, I feel I was conned! No biggie!

Steamthrower
01-30-2008, 03:48 PM
Not con their customers into upgrading with a feature list that they know will never be possible! And thats exactly what NT did!

No, and I repeat, no. They announced that they were planning on this. It was never an official list. Good grief, you refuse to realise that NT will refund your money if you ask, they've done it often!

Lewis
01-30-2008, 03:52 PM
This is my point! Other software companies sell there product based on features that they offer! Not con their customers into upgrading with a feature list that they know will never be possible! And thats exactly what NT did!


Why do you think that modelign tools in layout is not possible ? I Bet it is and it WILL be inside but not in 9.0 as we all see :). It'll be IN LW X.X for sure 'coz Jay said numerous of times they will add it but not as 9.x as they initially planned.

dccpro
01-30-2008, 03:54 PM
yes and i repeat yes! That is exactly what they did!

I already stated why i cant return my lightwave, but I just passed that word along to a few people that i know will take them up on that! I will let you know how they make out! I doubt it will be as easy as you guys claim! we will see.

dccpro
01-30-2008, 04:00 PM
Why do you think that modelign tools in layout is not possible ? I Bet it is and it WILL be inside but not in 9.0 as we all see :). It'll be IN LW X.X for sure 'coz Jay said numerous of times they will add it but not as 9.x as they initially planned.

Mark my words! The reason that we dont have the next version yet is because they tried to make lots of changes and the program is a bug ridden mess!

Lewis
01-30-2008, 04:06 PM
Mark my WORDS, your guessing is not good one :p. I bet they are doing great things as we speak :)? See, we all can say/have different POV and both of us are just guessing untill we see it :) :D :D.

BTW how much it has been since 9.3.1 come out ? Why would we need to have 9.x right now ? Maybe it's big update so it needs 6-9 months to be completed. You can't expect new version every 2-3 months. You can but that's not realistic and it would be just small update/big fix and not big (hughe actually) as 9.2 was which could be called 9.4 or 9.5 by magnitude of features what were updated/added coming from 9.0.

dccpro
01-30-2008, 04:08 PM
I would bet my life on that!

dccpro
01-30-2008, 04:20 PM
BTW how much it has been since 9.3.1 come out ? Why would we need to have 9.x right now ? Maybe it's big update so it needs 6-9 months to be completed. You can't expect new version every 2-3 months. You can but that's not realistic and it would be just small update/big fix and not big (hughe actually) as 9.2 was which could be called 9.4 or 9.5 by magnitude of features what were updated/added coming from 9.0.

how long do you think it should take between full releases? At the rate you are suggesting above its like 5 years from v9 to v10!

Exception
01-30-2008, 04:27 PM
I'm smelling something here.
someone who goes out of his way to be so unfairly negative is suspicious in my opinion. You have 69 posts of which the majority are complaints... of those that aren't there are the obligatory one liners and questions which have things like this in it:

"I have been putting these 2 upgrades off for a while now, because of unsertenty of LWs future, but they will make this job much easier."

Uncertainty of Lw's future?
'Conning' people into buying Lightwave?

but in the mean time not listening to reason, not accepting a formal apology as an answer, not accepting being able to return the product that you claim you were 'conned' into buying...

You sir, are high on my suspicion list. You're not making any friends here.
Just a friendly suggestion: this is a community for and by LightWave users. We are trying to be constructive and productive here. You are being neither.

GraphXs
01-30-2008, 04:31 PM
I would like to see them merge as well, but the one thing I hope they don't change is the LWO / LWS file types. When modeling in Layout does come I hope they still allow saving the objects and scenes as the LWO/LWS file types.

My main reason for this is in Max I sometime get file corruptions that mess the *.max file up, and it causes issues trying to extract the meshs out as sepearte objects. Anothe advantage IMO is the use of swapping models: In LW now I can rig a character "CharacterA" then hide the object file in a sub folder. Next time I load the scene I would give it "Character B" and the character is Rigged and ready to go! I know I can use the import/export RIG, but if I have animations on the rig and the character is similar then a model swap works great! :thumbsup:

dccpro
01-30-2008, 04:40 PM
I'm smelling something here.
someone who goes out of his way to be so unfairly negative is suspicious in my opinion. You have 69 posts of which the majority are complaints... of those that aren't there are the obligatory one liners and questions which have things like this in it:

"I have been putting these 2 upgrades off for a while now, because of unsertenty of LWs future, but they will make this job much easier."

Uncertainty of Lw's future?
'Conning' people into buying Lightwave?

but in the mean time not listening to reason, not accepting a formal apology as an answer, not accepting being able to return the product that you claim you were 'conned' into buying...

You sir, are high on my suspicion list. You're not making any friends here.
Just a friendly suggestion: this is a community for and by LightWave users. We are trying to be constructive and productive here. You are being neither.

I have been straight up since the day I came here to ask a question! So if I am on your "suspicion list" Its only because I am saying things that you dont like! If I was agreeing with your every word would i still be on your "suspicion list"?
My only point in this thread is that NT said that they were going to integrate in v9 and thats why I upgraded! I would have stopped posting in this thread long ago if i wasnt continually attacked by the NT fan club!

bobakabob
01-30-2008, 05:12 PM
dccpro,

You make fair points about the need for animateable points in Layout which are crucial for truly effective character animation. Presently mesh deformation just isn't subtle enough and has been discussed many times on the forums. Agreed, this feature is long overdue.

However I don't understand why you don't just buy into another app which has what you need... 3D apps have plummeted in price and most serious hobbyists / freelancers / one man studios don't need to be too flush to buy into them these days.

Personally I love this software for all its faults (and strengths of course - the new surfacing, rendering features, not forgetting rock steady stability) and find the ZBrush integration brilliant. I've been dipping in and out of XSI the past couple of years but just don't get on with its interface, rendering and surfacing despite the undeniably powerful animation toolset and integration.

Exception
01-30-2008, 05:42 PM
I have been straight up since the day I came here to ask a question! So if I am on your "suspicion list" Its only because I am saying things that you dont like! If I was agreeing with your every word would i still be on your "suspicion list"?

No you are not on my 'suspicion list' because of what you say but because of how you say it and your refusal to have a polite civil discussion about it. You keep repeating your point over and over and refuse to enage in proper conversation about it. You ignore replies made to you, and if you respond, you do it selectively. That is rude and uncivil behavior. Dozens of people have come out of the woodwork to explain, reason and talk about it but you are the only one who keeps saying the same thing over and over. Do you not think that what you are saying has been said by dozens of people before? You are harking about the only thing that actually went wrong with the LW9 development cycle. We've gotten so much new features, a much more stable program, new SDK developments and free plugins and whatnot. NT's only mistake was to publish their INTENDED feature list, nowhere did they PROMISE this list would materialize... still they did the fair thing and apologized... and if that still bugs you then you cvan get your money back, and you sir, have NO excuse not to return your lw 9 upgrade copy and get your money back because you keep on saying this is the only reason you upgraded. Well... it's not going to come in v9, so save your breath, get your money back and stop complaining about something this old, unnecessary and redundant.

Next time you call a group of people a fan club you might want to look at their track record. You are attacking the two of the greatest critics of NT on this board, and call us a fanclub. Hilarious!

Wonderpup
01-30-2008, 05:49 PM
I need better rigging, animation, instancing, and all that much more than I need integration. I'd rather see those come first.

Without integration better rigging, in terms of deformation, can't really happen, and animation in general would be greatly improved if it were possible to animate modeling operations- so you need integration more than you realise.


No, and I repeat, no. They announced that they were planning on this. It was never an official list

The modeler tools integration into layout was presented as a feature that would be available in the v9 cycle- this is not now the case, hence Jays apology- so it was an 'official' announcement.

Looking back I think there was a lot of wishful thinking on both sides- what I was looking for was a fully integrated app by the end of the 9 cycle, a totaly unrealistic expectation- but NT are partly to blame for touting the idea of an integrated modeler, which does imply an integrated lightwave.

dccpro
01-30-2008, 05:52 PM
No you are not on my 'suspicion list' because of what you say but because of how you say it and your refusal to have a polite civil discussion about it. You keep repeating your point over and over and refuse to enage in proper conversation about it. You ignore replies made to you, and if you respond, you do it selectively. That is rude and uncivil behavior. Dozens of people have come out of the woodwork to explain, reason and talk about it but you are the only one who keeps saying the same thing over and over. Do you not think that what you are saying has been said by dozens of people before? You are harking about the only thing that actually went wrong with the LW9 development cycle. We've gotten so much new features, a much more stable program, new SDK developments and free plugins and whatnot. NT's only mistake was to publish their INTENDED feature list, nowhere did they PROMISE this list would materialize... still they did the fair thing and apologized... and if that still bugs you then you cvan get your money back, and you sir, have NO excuse not to return your lw 9 upgrade copy and get your money back because you keep on saying this is the only reason you upgraded. Well... it's not going to come in v9, so save your breath, get your money back and stop complaining about something this old, unnecessary and redundant.

Next time you call a group of people a fan club you might want to look at their track record. You are attacking the two of the greatest critics of NT on this board, and call us a fanclub. Hilarious!

Are you not repeating yourself over and over as well?
Well I will repeat for you one more time, cause I guess you didnt read it the first 4 times i wrote it! I need my LW! That doesnt mean that I have to be happy about the way i was conned into upgrading!

And as for your preliminary feature list excuse? why would they continue the lie by saying it would be later in the 9X update?

dccpro
01-30-2008, 05:58 PM
The modeler tools integration into layout was presented as a feature that would be available in the v9 cycle- this is not now the case, hence Jays apology- so it was an 'official' announcement.

exactly! No need for an apology if there was no wrong done!

dccpro
01-30-2008, 06:01 PM
Jay, I except your apology, and will hope for a better LW in the future!

case closed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lewis
01-31-2008, 12:16 AM
I would bet my life on that!

On what exactly :) :D? That next Lw will not have great update or that modeler tools won't be possible in layout EVER :D :D??

BTW about schedule of updating from 9.0 to 10 I really don't care version number when i get needed tools and if we are going to get 9.2, 9.3, 9.3.1, 9.4, 9.6, 9.8, 9.9.1....(put any number there) before 10 then why not 4- 5 years in between :) ? Afterall LW 9.0 was available in 06/2006 so it's not been that long and we got 3 versions from then (with massive 9.2 upgrade which could easily be splitted into 9.1 and 9.2 if they wanted to have it faster). I bet next verison OpenBeta is soon to beagan as Chuck said last year so it can't be that far from now that we would be in position to see what they are cooking up :D?

AbnRanger
01-31-2008, 12:19 AM
....
Well I will repeat for you one more time, cause I guess you didnt read it the first 4 times i wrote it! I need my LW! That doesnt mean that I have to be happy about the way i was conned into upgrading!

And as for your preliminary feature list excuse? why would they continue the lie by saying it would be later in the 9X update?I understand your frustration, but saying you were "conned" is going over the line here. You know that NT did not intend hold a feature out there, only to retract it....hoping customers would be aloof enough to buy the next version 3-5yrs later in order to get that feature. It's downright silly to imply that.

Unlike Autodesk, at least NT was willing to give us a primative road map...so they have encountered a real sticking point, and can't meet one of those goals. They deserve a cookie, in my book, for being honest enough to inform us of this roadblock. I don't think for a second there was any deception on NT's part, and I'm sure they will try to make up for missing that particular goal.

Heck, I'm still waiting for an F-Prime-esque preview renderer for 3ds Max...Autodesk not only is behind some of it's competitiors in that area, but they won't so much as tell us if they are ever going to add such a feature. Having FPrime is a good counter-balance. It shaves an enormous amount of time in your overall workflow compared to the miniscule amount of time lost switching between modeler and layout.

The real question I would like Chuck or Jay to answer (surely they can answer this, as it's not discussing specifc features) would be this:
"Is the re-writing of LW aimed at bringing LW up to more current market standards, or is it intended to be a "Next Generation" application when you are done?"

Iain
01-31-2008, 02:23 AM
How can you be conned into having something you admit you need? That's a contradiction in terms.

The fan club comment shows complete ignorance of what goes on in this forum. A lot of us have been very vocal about what needs done to improve LW but we remain positive because it is still our app of choice for a number of very different reasons, one of which is the nature of the company behind it. They actually let us say these things on their forum and try to act on it (hey, I am a fan :hey: ).

theo
01-31-2008, 07:00 AM
I think this comparisons to Max is pointless. LightWave isn't a $5000 application. You don't have to pay out your *** for subscriptions. You don't have to start over financially if you don't stay with the program for a couple of releases. And still there's a lot of things that LightWave handles a lot better than Max.

In the same token, comparing the cost of LW with other applications may only serve to relegate LW as worthy performer in the sub par category.

To those who can't shut up about comparing LW to Maya or Max. Lightwave development under Jay Roth and the new brain juice is fledgling young.

Two-three years is nothing when developing code on the the complexity-level required by a powerful 3D application seeking advancement.

At this point in time patience, migration or integration is the answer to your woes. In my view it is emotional waste to claw at the walls.

It is useful to offer suggestions and healthy critiques but at this point LW just needs time to incubate. It has been through hell. The egg-suckers at Modo certainly pulled a skull crack on the LW community and as such we all have to work together here to insure LW's longevity.

Lightwavers who use Modo suck. Don't even defend yourself. I am resilient, defiant and completely impenetrable and, as such, as modo equivocations will fall on deaf ears. The Cretans at modo didn't just diss NT they dissed me.

My suggestion to NT is to choose a significant feature or two (instancing is a good one) that can be developed, concurrently, to work with current tech AND in-house tech. Then release the feature or two to the user base. This way you are able to satiate the hunger of the base.

Steamthrower
01-31-2008, 07:02 AM
Lightwavers who use Modo suck. Don't even defend yourself. I am resilient, defiant and completely impenetrable and, as such, as modo equivocations will fall on deaf ears. The Cretans at modo didn't just diss NT they dissed me.

Bravo Theo! I'm buying Silo for that very reason...plus that stinking, ridiculous, utterly unexcusable $25 demo fee is insane.

Crap mongers! Grass eaters! Filthy fingernailed hags!

theo
01-31-2008, 07:05 AM
Bravo Theo! I'm buying Silo for that very reason...plus that stinking, ridiculous, utterly unexcusable $25 demo fee is insane.

Crap mongers! Grass eaters! Filthy fingernailed hags!

Good for you, inigo07!

Iain
01-31-2008, 07:08 AM
Man, did they call yo momma a ho?

Steamthrower
01-31-2008, 07:09 AM
I could come up with some more but it'd be moderated.

Steamthrower
01-31-2008, 07:16 AM
I couldn't care less about the stupid enmities being flung about on that topic anymore. I think that chapter is done to death.

Modo, with it's stinking foul harmonies of discordant employees and cracking-LW-skulls, is like a love song praising the acne-pocked face of an ax-murderer's girlfriend. Who drives a Toyota Previa.

I'm trying to be elegiac here, guys...

theo
01-31-2008, 07:19 AM
LightWave and modo, especially in combination, offers a toolset that truly rocks at the price.


More power to ya, bub.

theo
01-31-2008, 07:38 AM
bitter, much? :)

ease up, or you'll sprain something :tongue:

Nah, just Cartesian. :thumbsup:

Remember, never, this equals that is emotionless. :D

Steamthrower
01-31-2008, 08:12 AM
U r 2 cool 4 us.

Homo sapiens dumbus, is we.

dccpro
01-31-2008, 10:06 AM
On what exactly :) :D? That next Lw will not have great update or that modeler tools won't be possible in layout EVER :D :D??

BTW about schedule of updating from 9.0 to 10 I really don't care version number when i get needed tools and if we are going to get 9.2, 9.3, 9.3.1, 9.4, 9.6, 9.8, 9.9.1....(put any number there) before 10 then why not 4- 5 years in between :) ? Afterall LW 9.0 was available in 06/2006 so it's not been that long and we got 3 versions from then (with massive 9.2 upgrade which could easily be splitted into 9.1 and 9.2 if they wanted to have it faster). I bet next verison OpenBeta is soon to beagan as Chuck said last year so it can't be that far from now that we would be in position to see what they are cooking up :D?

We shall see! I think they are probably already regretting the parallel change over idea!

dccpro
01-31-2008, 10:08 AM
I think this comparisons to Max is pointless. LightWave isn't a $5000 application. You don't have to pay out your *** for subscriptions. You don't have to start over financially if you don't stay with the program for a couple of releases. And still there's a lot of things that LightWave handles a lot better than Max.

Well, i dont ever remember NT saying they werent trying to compete with the apps that cost more. If thats the case, I wish they would just come out and say that.

dccpro
01-31-2008, 10:11 AM
How can you be conned into having something you admit you need? That's a contradiction in terms.

The fan club comment shows complete ignorance of what goes on in this forum. A lot of us have been very vocal about what needs done to improve LW but we remain positive because it is still our app of choice for a number of very different reasons, one of which is the nature of the company behind it. They actually let us say these things on their forum and try to act on it (hey, I am a fan :hey: ).

I upgraded because I thought they were integrating modeler, that has nothing to do with the fact that I still need the LW I have now for work I am in the middle of!

Steamthrower
01-31-2008, 10:16 AM
dccpro, not trying to get into any flame wars here, but do you realise what you're doing? There was a guy on the boards a few weeks back who, under various pseudonyms, made post after post after post slamming Lightwave. You're going down the same road.

It's not helping your credibility. For all we know, you're the same guy. It helps if you approach the issue with understanding and try to look at both sides of the problem.

dccpro
01-31-2008, 10:38 AM
What did i just say that was so offensive? Don't know anything about pseudonyms. I came here to find out if 9.5 was released yet. I should have left after I got my answer!

AbnRanger
01-31-2008, 11:59 AM
We shall see! I think they are probably already regretting the parallel change over idea!
To some extent, I bet that's a fair statement.
On one hand, you lose alot of your customer base by going black, and then you have no development funds coming in (relying on secondary funding/loans).
On the other, you have to do a lot of babysitting and trying to appease the current users by not "Breaking Stuff."
The later is the biggest headache, while the former is the biggest risk.

The Lux guys didn't have to worry about breaking anything. They somehow acquired the neccessary funding to build a program from scratch. I think XSI and Modo are both showing the staff at NT that it's really the only way to go, and that if you emerge with a kick-arse product, the customers will come back...running.

dccpro
01-31-2008, 12:28 PM
To some extent, I bet that's a fair statement.
On one hand, you lose alot of your customer base by going black, and then you have no development funds coming in (relying on secondary funding/loans).
On the other, you have to do a lot of babysitting and trying to appease the current users by not "Breaking Stuff."
The later is the biggest headache, while the former is the biggest risk.

The Lux guys didn't have to worry about breaking anything. They somehow acquired the neccessary funding to build a program from scratch. I think XSI and Modo are both showing the staff at NT that it's really the only way to go, and that if you emerge with a kick-arse product, the customers will come back...running.

yeah, i think that NT made the decision base on keeping money in their pockets in the short term. Not what would be best for their pockets in the long term! I would imagine that 99% of their time is spent squashing bugs that arise with every little change they try to make!

Exception
01-31-2008, 12:51 PM
The Lux guys didn't have to worry about breaking anything. They somehow acquired the neccessary funding to build a program from scratch. I think XSI and Modo are both showing the staff at NT that it's really the only way to go, and that if you emerge with a kick-arse product, the customers will come back...running.

From scratch?
I think not.

Modo is very much a revamp of modeler. Down to having some of the same bugs and problems. They had the rights to modeler, but not to Layout, so they took it with them and modified it. Did a good job on it too... in some areas.

AbnRanger
01-31-2008, 02:15 PM
Does anyone know "why" the split between the NT staff and Brad's crew....other than just speculating that it was due to a difference in opinions about LW's future?

That doesn't say much, cause it probably happens all the time within the development teams of various companies.
Was is just a matter of someone's toes/ego getting stepped on?

If that's the case, then why can't the brass at NT get on the phone, call Brad and say something to the effect of:
"Hey Brad, look...I'm going to swallow my pride here and apologize for anything I've/we've done to cause a rift between us. You guys have been part of the family for so long, I'd sincerely like to extend an olive branch and try to reconcile our relationship with one another.
You guys have impressed the heck out of us with what you've done with Modo, and instead of us having to grind our knuckles in order to compete with each other, I'd really like to see what we can do together...I think we'd make a winning combination...again. Would it be possible to talk about this further over dinner?"

What's the jingle in the Animated Coke commercial?...
"Give a little love and it all comes back to you!"

Stooch
01-31-2008, 02:21 PM
yeah, i think that NT made the decision base on keeping money in their pockets in the short term. Not what would be best for their pockets in the long term! I would imagine that 99% of their time is spent squashing bugs that arise with every little change they try to make!

hey i respect the fact that a company needs to look out for its own interests first and foremost. thats the whole point of having a business. I dont want a companys development to suffer because they are too nice to their users. *cough* PMG *cough* (they are finally making a paid upgrade so cross your fingas though)

Lightwolf
01-31-2008, 02:31 PM
Does anyone know "why" the split between the NT staff and Brad's crew...
Those who know probably wouldn't be allowed to tell anybody - those that say something probably only heard rumours - and those change a lot depending on whom you listen to (I've heard plenty of different versions).

Having said that, it is a moot point. What I find more interesting is seeing where both apps are heading - that's telling a lot on its own and anybody can verify it and make up his/her own mind.

Cheers,
Mike

Iain
01-31-2008, 02:32 PM
I upgraded because I thought they were integrating modeler, that has nothing to do with the fact that I still need the LW I have now for work I am in the middle of!

I still can't get my head around this. All I remember was some positive but vague statements about modelling functionality being put into layout. Nothing about integration into one module.
That was attempted and it didn't work. No lies, no deception, just an abortive attempt at something useful.

Unlike when Lightscape (a truly wonderful and peerless renderer) was bought and scrapped by some philanthropic company with the promise that it would be integrated into 3d Studio Max's rendering core. Hah-now there's a bare faced lie. Some Max users still think that happened!

Lightwolf
01-31-2008, 02:37 PM
All I remember was some positive but vague statements about modelling functionality being put into layout. Nothing about integration into one module.
Yup, same here. They would have gotten a lot of flak from me if they would have promised more than that ;)

Either that or I've had a massive Alzheimers attack for the past few years :D

Cheers,
Mike

dccpro
01-31-2008, 02:50 PM
what was the apology for then?

They said "layout would be well on its way to being that unified app" and modeler would still be updated. Regardless of what exactly was promised, nothing was delivered!

We do now have another useless tab in layout that that says modeling tools!

I actually had to remove it because it made me feel bad for NT every time I looked at it!

dccpro
01-31-2008, 02:52 PM
Either that or I've had a massive Alzheimers attack for the past few years

I think a bunch of you are suffering from this!

Lightwolf
01-31-2008, 02:54 PM
what was the apology for then?
For the dev team not getting that integration as far as they'd like to have taken in - as I explained previously.
That would've still been far off an integrated modeller though.

A unified app was never, ever on the slate for 9.x. It may not even be for 10.0 allthough I surely hope so.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
01-31-2008, 02:56 PM
I think a bunch of you are suffering from this!
As likely as the monkeys finally finishing their Shakespear, I've been following LW dev too close for the past decade...

Cheers,
Mike

dccpro
01-31-2008, 02:57 PM
hey i respect the fact that a company needs to look out for its own interests first and foremost. thats the whole point of having a business. I dont want a companys development to suffer because they are too nice to their users. *cough* PMG *cough* (they are finally making a paid upgrade so cross your fingas though)

I would be more worried about the long term then the short term, but thats me!

dccpro
01-31-2008, 02:59 PM
As likely as the monkeys finally finishing their Shakespear, I've been following LW dev too close for the past decade...

Cheers,
Mike

well if you dont remember this
"layout would be well on its way to being that unified app"
you must have something!

Lightwolf
01-31-2008, 03:20 PM
well if you dont remember this
"layout would be well on its way to being that unified app"
you must have something!
Of course it is, just not for 9.x - and was never meant to be either.

I would be more worried about the long term then the short term, but thats me!
In that case NTs decision not to spend more time fiddling around with their current approach - when they saw it would fail - should be much to your liking.
So what are you complaining about? The fact that they are not delivering a long term goal now... or the fact that they'd rather pull an expected feature from their roadmap instaed of delivering something that would waste development time and be sub-par?

The only thing you can accuse the NT dev team of is being overly optimistic - and they've surely learnt the lesson of publishing roadmaps publicly.

Cheers,
Mike

Optimism is an occupational hazard of programming: feedback is the treatment.

dccpro
01-31-2008, 03:31 PM
Of course it is, just not for 9.x - and was never meant to be either.

That statement was in regards to V9.0!
Why are you hell bent on making things up to make excuses for a company!

The unified app statement was on the V9.0 feature list, then they changed it to the 9X cycle, then Jay apologized

nobody really cares that much. It seems the only ones that care that much are the ones trying to distort the truth!

I know what I read and why I upgraded!

Iain
01-31-2008, 03:41 PM
"Would be well on its way" is not the same as "will be".
They tried to do something which you have misconstrued as someting else. In any event, it didn't work and they apologised.

How large should I make that?

dccpro
01-31-2008, 03:46 PM
You guys are flip flopping!

So you agree that they promised something that wasnt delivered? If so then we are golden!

Lightwolf
01-31-2008, 03:50 PM
Sheesh:



Mesh Editing in Layout
Many modeling plug-ins now operate in Layout
Use Vertex Paint in Layout to modify vertex maps
Create Text in Layout

The core workflow has begun a radical new paradigm shift in LightWave. Many Modeler Plug-ins which operate on the entire mesh can now be used in Layout. In addition, the user can create text within Layout, speeding up motion graphics workflow. NewTek will be building more and more mesh-editing capabilities into Layout throughout the 9.x development cycle, eventually allowing the user to move the modeling process over to Layout very early, and continue refining the mesh, rigging the mesh, and adding and editing mesh weight and vertex maps directly from within Layout, saving many hours in the creation and animation process.

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9_features.php

This was roughly the start of the first open beta, LW 9.0 was released some time in June/July.

Cheers,
Mike

dccpro
01-31-2008, 04:03 PM
Sheesh:



http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9_features.php

This was roughly the start of the first open beta, LW 9.0 was released some time in June/July.

Cheers,
Mike

I cant believe that you are still trying to make excuses!!!!!
go back another year to around siggraph 05 when they were preselling LW9.

Of course by the time the open beta started they changed their tune!

You seem like a smart guy! Why back yourself into a corner! Their are enough people here that know exactly what went down!

I say again. What was the apology for?

Lightwolf
01-31-2008, 04:06 PM
I cant believe that you are still trying to make excuses!!!!!
go back another year to around siggraph 05 when they were preselling LW9.

How about August 2005 then, would that suit you?

The modeling systems have received significant functional enhancements, and work is underway to improve workflows. Most of the modeling functions available in other products are now available in our modeling environment, and we have also added some that no one else has. We are also improving the SDK which will allow 3rd parties much more efficient access to core data structures, with far less waste in the process.

Some significant amount of modeling functions are now accessible inside of the Layout portion of LightWave, which will significantly improve workflow, and offer potentially new ways of working and animating within LightWave. This core change was a primary factor in crossing the threshold to the new series. Note that the selection system inside of Layout will not yet be as extensive as that found in modeler; however, we are doing an extensive revision of the selection process, which will affect both environments. This will be available in future versions of the application.
This page hasn't changed much until it was removed in 2007 by the way.
Note the bold text. This is what hasn't happened.

Cheers,
Mike *sigh*

dccpro
01-31-2008, 04:12 PM
I'd like to have links!
But if you could, can you find me the feature list with this statement..."layout would be well on its way to being that unified app"

You know what originally was stated! Why you want to fight it so?

What was the apology for?????????????????????

Lightwolf
01-31-2008, 04:15 PM
I'd like to have links!
I'd like you to have some as well actually ;)


But if you could, can you find me the feature list with this statement..."layout would be well on its way to being that unified app"

Now wait, you mean you can't back up your argument?

What was the apology for?????????????????????
Re-read my last post and the bold parts in the quote.

Cheers,
Mike

Iain
01-31-2008, 04:23 PM
What was the apology for?????????????????????

For saying they would do something and then realising they couldn't! Note "couldn't" not "wouldn't". How many times do you need to hear it and from how many people?

A discussion involves other people so try to listen to what we are saying.

dccpro
01-31-2008, 04:45 PM
cause yous are still both flip flopping!

In one statement yous say there was nothing promised for 9x, and in the next you say that there was, and thats why jay is sorry!

Which one is it?

a.We got what was stated for 9x
b.We didnt

Nicolas Jordan
01-31-2008, 04:57 PM
cause yous are still both flip flopping!

In one statement yous say there was nothing promised for 9x, and in the next you say that there was, and thats why jay is sorry!

Which one is it?

a.We got what was stated for 9x
b.We didnt


c. we have yet to find out :D

prospector
01-31-2008, 04:58 PM
NewTek will be building more and more mesh-editing capabilities into Layout throughout the 9.x development cycle,

That means 9.0 to 9.9 or anywhere in between


eventually allowing the user to move the modeling process over to Layout very early, and continue refining the mesh, rigging the mesh, and adding and editing mesh weight and vertex maps directly from within Layout, saving many hours in the creation and animation process.
This means AFTER BUILDING IN MODELER you could REFINE stuff in layout.

I see nothing about making it integrated.

Lightwolf
01-31-2008, 05:00 PM
cause yous are still both flip flopping!

In one statement yous say there was nothing promised for 9x, and in the next you say that there was, and thats why jay is sorry!

Which one is it?

a.We got what was stated for 9x
b.We didnt
Oh, c'mon now, you're smarter than that.

You stated that NT promised a unified app - which caused you to rush out and buy a unreleased product.

We said that NT expected to deliver limited modelling support, announced as much and then had to retract it partially because they couldn't reach all of their goals.

So, where does that leave us?
* We don't have a unified app, which was never promised for 9.x but surely is a development goal for the future
* We have limited modelling capabilities.
* Those limited capabilities were supposed to be more extensive but aren't due to whatever constraints - thus the apology.

Anything I left out?

Cheers,
Mike - who's getting mighty tired now...

Lightwolf
01-31-2008, 05:01 PM
I see nothing about making it integrated.
Nor do I. Then again, I'm not a native speaker ;)

Cheers,
Mike

DogBoy
01-31-2008, 05:34 PM
I see nothing about making it integrated.

Nor do I. Then again, I'm not a native speaker ;)

I don't either and I am a native speaker. :D

Exception
01-31-2008, 05:50 PM
All I see is someone trolling around.

dccpro
01-31-2008, 08:30 PM
Los Angeles, CA -- SIGGRAPH 2005 Booth #1529 -- August 1, 2005 -- NewTek, Inc., manufacturer of industry-leading 3D animation and video products, today announced the forthcoming release of LightWave 3D® version 9.0, the next generation of the Emmy®-winning 3D application. NewTek's development team is implementing a major rewrite and restructuring of LightWave's core with the addition of mesh editing capabilities to Layout, consolidation and enhancement of tools in Modeler, extraction of the renderer from the Layout module, rewrite of the raytracing routines to newer, much faster algorithms, and implementation of adaptive mesh subdivision based on distance-to-camera and visibility. Modeler's toolset is being updated with true edge support throughout, and subdivision surfaces have been re-engineered for improved performance and n-gon support.

"The new development team has executed a very careful step-by-step first-phase redesign of the application leading toward version 9," said Jay Roth, President of the 3D Technology Division for NewTek. "The intent during most of our previous cycle was to restructure the core to state-of-the-art for rapid development without breaking things for the users, so that we could continue to deliver new features and regular maintenance enhancements. With 9.0, we have reached the point where we can implement major changes at a radical pace, as the new availability of mesh editing functionswithin the Layout module, added in just the last couple of months, demonstrates. The new structure will allow us to keep pace with the most advanced technologies, and to bring innovation to LightWave users faster than ever before."



The modeling capabilities within Layout were achieved by extracting the mesh-editing core from Modeler, and moving it into a common location where Layout and Modeler both have access.Layout's new capabilities extend to running many of the existing plug-ins created for Modeler as well, so many users who have expressed a preference for a single workspace for all model and scene creation will find Layout well on its way to being that single workspace. Those who prefer a dedicated workspace for modeling tasks can retain that workflow with Modeler,as NewTek will continue to develop and provide this unique streamlined environment for model creation.



Among the changes that will contribute to enhanced workflow are faster OpenGL performance and additional OpenGL hardware shader support, building on the initial implementation in version 8.5. For many scenes this will provide a very accurate preview of the look of the final image or animation in real time, without the need to create test renders. The GUI is being enhanced to allow for far more user configurability than in the past, so that users can adapt the look to fit their needs and preferences and the interface elements to provide the best workflow for the ways they use LightWave.



"All I can say is...WOW! Seriously, these new capabilities are exciting, and I think LightWave users everywhere are in for a treat!" said Wes Chilton, visual effects artist for DNA Productions. "Being neck deep in a feature production using all sorts of new tools, I still appreciate the relative simplicity, power, and SPEED of LightWave—it's pulled our bacon out of the fire so many times when we needed an effect quickly. I absolutely cannot wait to see what LightWave 9.0 and beyond will be able to do for our production pipelines!"

This is my favorite part

With 9.0, we have reached the point where we can implement major changes at a radical pace, as the new availability of mesh editing functions within the Layout module, added in just the last couple of months, demonstrates. The new structure will allow us to keep pace with the most advanced technologies, and to bring innovation to LightWave users faster than ever before."


This is such a radical pace!!!
If that isnt the biggest bunch of bullcrap I have ever read, I dont know what is!

Exception
01-31-2008, 09:06 PM
Dude, seriously, what do you want?

dccpro
01-31-2008, 09:11 PM
From you? How about some respect!
There is lots of name calling in this forum!
I dont appriciate being called a troll.
Isn't name calling against the forum rules here?

Exception
01-31-2008, 09:21 PM
Respect?
What for?

Respect is something you earn, not demand.

You think you will earn respect going over the same thing over and over again while we have answered, debated, clarified, explained and reasoned with you from all possible sides?

Besides, you seem to have some issues with plain grammar. I did not call you a troll, I said you were trolling around. Which is the act of doing what I said one sentence before.

dccpro
01-31-2008, 09:29 PM
Respect?
What for?

Respect is something you earn, not demand.

You think you will earn respect going over the same thing over and over again while we have answered, debated, clarified, explained and reasoned with you from all possible sides?

Besides, you seem to have some issues with plain grammar. I did not call you a troll, I said you were trolling around. Which is the act of doing what I said one sentence before.

Is it possible for someone to troll around and not be a troll?:D

No seriously, I dont want anything from any of you except for yous to read this


With 9.0, we have reached the point where we can implement major changes at a radical pace, as the new availability of mesh editing functions within the Layout module, added in just the last couple of months, demonstrates. The new structure will allow us to keep pace with the most advanced technologies, and to bring innovation to LightWave users faster than ever before."

and then say to yourselves "damn! he told us so!"

Exception
01-31-2008, 09:32 PM
Is it possible for someone to troll around and not be a troll?:D

Is it possible for someone to goosestep without being a goose?
Or to monkey around without being a monkey?

What immature reasoning.


and then say to yourselves "damn! he told us so!"

Um, and where have I said they didn't? You are harking about an issue that's almost a year old.
We've already covered this. Please just let it rest and move on.

dccpro
01-31-2008, 09:37 PM
As long as I am quoted i will respond! So its pretty much up to you guys!

And now I see how it works with the name calling too!

Why you jerkin off on the NT forum?

geothefaust
01-31-2008, 10:08 PM
dccpro,

How about you stop arguing, just for the sake of arguing? Trolling is pretty annoying, and you don't really come off as sounding all too mature.

This point has been debated for a while, and ever since Jay apologized, it's been a pretty dead topic.

You've got your apology. If you're not happy, pick up your fracking phone and ring Newtek to politely ask for your money back.

Otherwise... Nothing to see here, move along.

dccpro
01-31-2008, 10:14 PM
dccpro,

How about you stop arguing, just for the sake of arguing? Trolling is pretty annoying, and you don't really come off as sounding all too mature.

This point has been debated for a while, and ever since Jay apologized, it's been a pretty dead topic.

You've got your apology. If you're not happy, pick up your fracking phone and ring Newtek to politely ask for your money back.

Otherwise... Nothing to see here, move along.

Thanks for that info! I'll keep all that in mind!
You wouldnt happen to be wiping your @$$, would you?

Nicolas Jordan
01-31-2008, 10:39 PM
Thanks for that info! I'll keep all that in mind!
You wouldnt happen to be wiping your @$$, would you?

:screwy:

dccpro
01-31-2008, 10:55 PM
As long as I am quoted i will respond! So its pretty much up to you guys!

And now I see how it works with the name calling too!

Why you jerkin off on the NT forum?
You guys must really love me deep down inside! either that, or you want to argue more then I do!

AbnRanger
02-01-2008, 12:35 AM
dc....give it a rest man. You've stated your point numerous times. People either get what you're saying or they don't, by now. Your last few posts were way over the line, and will get you banned if you keep it up.
Let's stay civilized, shall we?

Steamthrower
02-01-2008, 06:31 AM
You guys must really love me deep down inside! either that, or you want to argue more then I do!

You're giving me deja vu. I keep thinking I've seen this before.

ben martin
02-01-2008, 07:52 AM
Wow, people… holycrap!

It was a simple question!
"Iain" stated "There's even a poll this time!"
Yup… the idea was pretty simple:
I just want to know what is the users opinion on this.
Maybe Newtek could be remembered about this if someone from NT read the forum!

Sure, there are other priorities… I'm the one that defends a robust and practical CA and deformation system first, nevertheless integration is also a base point that must be taken into sonsideration to develop future tools.
I can even argue that if the actual modeler CA tools (excluding the deform engine that sucks) was already integrated in Layout (whole modeler integration) the CA workflow would be much simples than it is (almost using the actual tools)!

"dccpro"
I understand your statement but you must understand that things are not static to a plan and tend to change along the way, despite the fact that the 9.X cycle is not over yet!
There's no need to reach such point of "discussion"

Keep in mind, however that I understand your level of distrust but a lot happened along the years regarding Lightwave and Newtek development.
We always expected for several improvements for consecutive years and some of that expectations were not fulfill yet.
Me too, I also stated that if Newtek does not do something serious about CA during the 9.x cycle, I'll turn away from using LW for that matter.

It's true that Newtek is slow to reach and address some critical developments and that's why Lw is loosing the train, what makes Lightwave still around is that, we (Lightwavers) can always find a way to reach our harbor using trics and external plug-ins.
It's a fact that we keep faith in this (so cool) software and that is what keeps us around.

Also, he must realise that the new Newtek team (Jay) almost had to start from scratch and they lost a lot of data when the old team left but this shouldn't be an excuse to delay some critical developments… I believe that developers should learn with already implemented strategies.

Blender is a pretty good example of this and they are getting ahead of Lightwave in some areas. They are implementing revamped approaches based on major ones that are already being used on other major softwares.
Who is the smarter here?
The ones that do research and development from fresh or the ones that implement methods that really work and are already proved on the field? Something to think about!

Resuming; Integration? Hell, yes! It's not an options it is a must!
When? Better sooner than latter (but well implemented!)

People, peace! :)
Disagreeing is good (helps us to see the light (wave)) but making that personal and fighting over it, is not!

manproof
02-01-2008, 08:17 AM
For me they are already effectively one application. Alt+Tab or OpenApple+Tab are what I use to “toggle” between Modeler and Layout modes. If the number of applications running was reduced from 3 to 1, it would certainly clean up my system tray/dock.

I’m for integration, but it’s not a big issue for me. If the Hub consistently maintained communication between the two applications I wouldn’t care about integration at all.

dccpro
02-01-2008, 09:33 AM
dc....give it a rest man. You've stated your point numerous times. People either get what you're saying or they don't, by now. Your last few posts were way over the line, and will get you banned if you keep it up.
Let's stay civilized, shall we?
I dont appreciate being called names! No matter what it is!
I have a right to defend myself. I stay civilized till someone becomes uncivilized with me!
I am not fighting with myself here. There are others posting as well. I wont take the blame for this thread. There are about 4 other people that are equally to blame!

Its not my fault that NT made promises that they didnt deliver!!!!!!!!!

dccpro
02-01-2008, 09:35 AM
You're giving me deja vu. I keep thinking I've seen this before.

I think you might be paranoid!

cresshead
02-01-2008, 09:42 AM
can we get back to some sort of ''normal posts'' if at all possible!

personally i don't put all my eggs in one basket...i have lightwave, max2008, vue5. zbrush3, xsi...

for me lightwave is pretty good at most things i need.

thank you!

Iain
02-01-2008, 09:49 AM
I think we should stop giving a certain poster any attention. He's lapping it up and lowering the tone.

My last word on the subject.

ben martin
02-01-2008, 09:51 AM
can we get back to some sort of ''normal posts'' if at all possible!

personally i don't put all my eggs in one basket...i have lightwave, max2008, vue5. zbrush3, xsi...

for me lightwave is pretty good at most things i need.

thank you!
You're welcome! :)

dccpro
02-01-2008, 09:52 AM
As long as I am quoted i will respond! So its pretty much up to you
guys!


I think I already said that!
Yous are worse then I am!

Steamthrower
02-01-2008, 10:13 AM
I have put dccpro on my ignore list.

Helps me actually stay on track and talk about worthwhile things.

Steamthrower
02-01-2008, 10:15 AM
can we get back to some sort of ''normal posts'' if at all possible!

personally i don't put all my eggs in one basket...i have lightwave, max2008, vue5. zbrush3, xsi...

for me lightwave is pretty good at most things i need.

thank you!

So Cresshead...any chance you could spend the time and give a breakdown of what tasks you use each of those packages for?

dccpro
02-01-2008, 10:18 AM
I have put dccpro on my ignore list.

Helps me actually stay on track and talk about worthwhile things.

Bet you didnt!

Stooch
02-01-2008, 10:30 AM
So mr Digital Content Creation Pro (and a digital guru according to your profile) got any lw work to show? i mean you are pretty new poster here post count wise and im curious as to where you work and what kind of work you do..

because i know lots of lw users here that seem to be able to create some great stuff with currently "crippled" lw. To be frank, unless you have some outstanding stuff that will get LW noticed and sell more copies, i really dont think NT will miss your business much. You havent said anything new in this entire thread, its all been covered before you already 10 times over. I talk **** about LW all the time but atleast try to offer ways to improve it. you are just being an *** wart. Frankly if you think that integration is LWs biggest problem that requires the most amount of bitching, then you are no DCCPRO or a guru. just a whiny kid. There are PLENTY of problems to worry about, most are way more important that this issue. And its pretty obvious that NT already know about integration and are working on it. so what is it exactly that you want from them?

dccpro
02-01-2008, 11:20 AM
So mr Digital Content Creation Pro (and a digital guru according to your profile) got any lw work to show? i mean you are pretty new poster here post count wise and im curious as to where you work and what kind of work you do..

because i know lots of lw users here that seem to be able to create some great stuff with currently "crippled" lw. To be frank, unless you have some outstanding stuff that will get LW noticed and sell more copies, i really dont think NT will miss your business much. You havent said anything new in this entire thread, its all been covered before you already 10 times over. I talk **** about LW all the time but atleast try to offer ways to improve it. you are just being an *** wart. Frankly if you think that integration is LWs biggest problem that requires the most amount of bitching, then you are no DCCPRO or a guru. just a whiny kid. There are PLENTY of problems to worry about, most are way more important that this issue. And its pretty obvious that NT already know about integration and are working on it. so what is it exactly that you want from them?

I wanted people that were distorting the truth to stop!

I dont think that integration is the biggest problem, but I think it would be smarter to tackle integrating the apps first, before making a new animation system. Personally I'd like to see much more work done on the renderer, and render layers options!

My work is shown on many forums not here though! I would prefer to stay anonymous!

And stooch your work isnt that grand? just in case you were wondering!:agree:

Nicolas Jordan
02-01-2008, 11:28 AM
For anyone who has used Lightwave extensively having modeler and layout integration probably isn't that important compared to other needed features and issues facing the program. I have used Lightwave since version 6.0 so I can't remember a time when the hub didn't exist. Since Layout and modeler were never integrated together I don't miss not having that feature but it would definitely be a plus when it does happen. I am looking forward to whatever progress is made in the next beta. To remind myself how much Lightwave has improved since the new dev team took over I opened up 8.0 the other day and after trying to work in it for a short period of time ti becomes apparent how far the new dev team has brought Lightwave. :lightwave

Andyjaggy
02-01-2008, 12:07 PM
Agree. While I would love to see them integrated it is definitely not on the top of my list. I'm not even sure it would be in the top ten. If I was more of a CA guy I might see that differently, but for my needs it works pretty well separated. There are some times when I really wish it was integrated but there are bigger problems LW has to solve before then.

Steamthrower
02-01-2008, 12:10 PM
Okay, so I saw Stooch's post and unignored dccpro (cause at one point, yeah, he was ignored) and wanted to say this:

Shut up dccpro. Look at Stooch's site. And then shut up some more. To be able to say his stuff "isn't that grand" then you sure as heck better have some Digital Domain or Sony Imageworks or Pixar work under your belt.

Exception
02-01-2008, 12:24 PM
And stooch your work isnt that grand? just in case you were wondering!:agree:


Aww, look at that!
The kid is being a low life under-the belt hitting antagonizer!

You've got some nerve, criticizing someone whose work is out there while sitting behind your little wall of anonymity. They have a word for that: a coward.

And there is only one thing you love: attention, wether it is positive or negative. So, let's all put this guy on our ignore list, not quote him, and he'll go away and troll another forum sooner or later.

Steamthrower
02-01-2008, 12:31 PM
He's going on my ignore list again.

Go away, please, unless you have a link to an amazing portfolio.

AbnRanger
02-01-2008, 12:37 PM
Aww, look at that!
The kid is being a low life under-the belt hitting antagonizer!

You've got some nerve, criticizing someone whose work is out there while sitting behind your little wall of anonymity. They have a word for that: a coward.
The only reason he did so was because, in typical Stooch fashion, he was challenged to show his work (so Stooch could make degrading remarks about it...and make himself feel better)...when nothing in the conversation lent itself to comparing one's work to another. He has a habit of taking swipes at other's work (elevating himself in the process), so throw some heat Stooch's way if we are going to be fair about this.

cresshead
02-01-2008, 12:54 PM
So Cresshead...any chance you could spend the time and give a breakdown of what tasks you use each of those packages for?

sure...

3dsmax
covers many tasks abit like lightwave can but with the addition of fur/hair/rigging/motion capture based animation..some of it's modeling tools are better but some are lacking so that's where lightwave picks up what max struggles with....i'm getting into using mental ray but it's not quick to learn...i also have automatron but havn't used it in a production as yet so i'm still using biped [character studio] for most rigging tasks.

lightwave
like max it's an all rounder package but has a nice and simple renderer to play with, plus the new motion blur is VERY nice and something that mental ray over on max is really slow to work with...currently i do not animate characters in lightwave as max seems to run circles around lightwave in this specific task as lightwave 9.3 stands that is...
lightwave was great for a pencil'cel shaded look on the felix site and rendered out 5x faster than 3dsmax could so i moved the whole render side over to lightwave from max but still modeled most of it in max with lightwave taking up the remainder of the modeling work.
lightwave is okay for lipsync as i have mimic pro for lightwave which i picked up for $18 via a daz3d promo.

vue 5 infinate
a great freeby from upgrading lightwave...it does some great work on the sci fi tv show i'm working on for making martian landscapes but i'm trying out the ple of vue 6.5 over the weekend as i really detest the animation tools in vue 5 and find the viewport nav really annoying and both of which have been updated from 5 to 6 to let people use them like max, maya, lw etc....so if that goes smooth i'll upgrade to 6.5....one thing i have found with vue is ''crawling''
in the render's with camera animations...you have to set the AA really high and at least at ''broadcast'' just to start off with..


Zbrush3
i simply looooove this app!...yup it's an odd ball but it's really fun...still playing currently but my main goal is that of character modeling and then retopologising the mesh into a more animatable version..

xsi
i have 4.2 and never really got into it to be fair...it was cheap but didn't really offer anything for me that i didn't already have with max and lightwave...was just an impulse buy really...:D
i keep threatening to bury it in a peat bog to my ex students!:hey:

dccpro
02-01-2008, 12:56 PM
I have work thats better then anything on stoochs site thats for sure!
What is so impressive on his site? For someone to come at me like he did, his work should have been on a much higher level!
Yous can think what you want but in my eyes he made an @$$ of himself!

Steamthrower
02-01-2008, 12:56 PM
The only reason he did so was because, in typical Stooch fashion, he was challenged to show his work (so Stooch could make degrading remarks about it...and make himself feel better)...when nothing in the conversation lent itself to comparing one's work to another. He has a habit of taking swipes at other's work (elevating himself in the process), so throw some heat Stooch's way if we are going to be fair about this.

I think everyone here's aware that most people around here often get mad at Stooch...me included...and he was even banned for a period...but...

However much Stooch likes making people cry (:D) I'll have to confess that I think he's a decent guy. He's at least man enough to hold onto his position and be dogmatic about it instead of being a putrifying wuss...

dccpro
02-01-2008, 01:15 PM
here is 3 of my older works these may have been posted here at NT before!

Andyjaggy
02-01-2008, 02:12 PM
Stooch can be a pain in the #$% sometimes, but he can also be very helpful and makes some great suggestions sometimes, so we put up with him and even like him sometimes :D

You however have done nothing but complain since you have shown up on the forum, and have therefore been attacked because of it.

lardbros
02-01-2008, 02:41 PM
here is 3 of my older works these may have been posted here at NT before!

I'd have just stayed anonymous! Or shown some newer work? Why show the old stuff anyway?

Chuck
02-01-2008, 02:44 PM
Chuck can say what he wants, but if the changes coming are what I am hoping and what NT has claimed, it would render those vids useless.

I am not questioning the quality of the training videos. I am questioning the future of LW!

And with no words from NT we are all left to speculate.


NewTek staff actively producing content and participating here daily do not constitute "no words from NewTek." Three updates to the software in 2007, two of which advanced the features of the product significantly and a third which provided a major maintenance boost to those advances as well as the long-time features, do not constitute "no words from NewTek." Other companies would have charged for such updates, and a couple might have been published as ordinal releases rather than updates at most places.

There is more than enough evidence in v9.0 and in the updates that have followed that LightWave has a committed and aggressive team and that no one need have any doubts about the strength of its future. Citing record-breaking training content production from NewTek, something that people would hale from any other company, as reason to support doubts on that future is just plain beyond understanding. It wouldn't matter if we rendered them useless - he took a mere two months (sans the Christmas/New Years break) to provide 24 hours of training, if we obsolete that he takes another couple of months to replace it. And it has been good practice just in case he has a lot more training to produce soon, hasn't it?

dccpro
02-01-2008, 02:51 PM
I'd have just stayed anonymous! Or shown some newer work? Why show the old stuff anyway?


because the old stuff cant be tied to work i am presently doing, or work I have posted on other forums where my reputation is good!

Besides, that work is plenty good enough for me to speak about LW's short comings! Which was what stooch was questioning!

Steamthrower
02-01-2008, 02:54 PM
because the old stuff cant be tied to work i am presently doing or work I have posted on other forums where my reputation is good!

Besides, that work is plenty good enough for me to speak about LW's short comings! Which was what stooch was questioning!

???

Unignored you just to nitpick. Did you happen to read Chuck's rather even-handed explanation?

dccpro
02-01-2008, 02:59 PM
Other companies would have charged for such updates, and a couple might have been published as ordinal releases rather than updates at most places.

Other companies arent in the same spot as NT!
Other companies wouldnt have given a feature list that they had no chance of accomplishing!


There is more than enough evidence in v9.0 and in the updates that have followed that LightWave has a committed and aggressive team and that no one need have any doubts about the strength of its future.

You must be more easily convinced then I!

Steamthrower
02-01-2008, 03:01 PM
You must be more easily convinced then I!

:ohmy:

Chuck
02-01-2008, 03:03 PM
well in my case the problem is that integration was promised when V9 was announced in 2005. It is now 08 and we are on 9.3.1 and no closer to integration. So pardon me if I am a little curious as to exactly when this will happen, or if plans have changed, or a single bit of info from NT!

If you do a forum search you'll see that there has in fact been discussion from us on the topic - Exception summed it up succinctly. We were very optimistic about the approach we had taken toward opening up modeling capabilities within Layout. As it turned out, it worked well enough to accomplish what we had initially described for the v9.0 release, the capability to run some Modeler plugins within Layout and use some modeling tools. The approach did not offer the further capability we had hoped, and we had to go back to design. It is unlikely that there will be any further change on this front for the v9.x cycle, and that stands as an example of why "subject to change" is a reality that we've expressed on those occasions when we talk about future plans or publish planned feature lists.

AbnRanger
02-01-2008, 03:06 PM
Okay...works done here, guys. This thread looks plenty demolished to me. :D How's about you, gentlemen?

dccpro
02-01-2008, 03:08 PM
If you do a forum search you'll see that there has in fact been discussion from us on the topic - Exception summed it up succinctly. We were very optimistic about the approach we had taken toward opening up modeling capabilities within Layout. As it turned out, it worked well enough to accomplish what we had initially described for the v9.0 release, the capability to run some Modeler plugins within Layout and use some modeling tools. The approach did not offer the further capability we had hoped, and we had to go back to design. It is unlikely that there will be any further change on this front for the v9.x cycle, and that stands as an example of why "subject to change" is a reality that we've expressed on those occasions when we talk about future plans or publish planned feature lists.

If no wrong was done what was Jays apology for?

Chuck
02-01-2008, 03:18 PM
No, your dead on! and this was suposesd to be at the release of v9. Then when a bunch of people preordered they said that it was to hard for them to figure out and it would come later in the 9x cycle. They also changed the feature list at that point as well!

With regard to modeling tools in Layout, we accomplished for the v9.0 release exactly what we stated we would in the preliminary feature list. We did modify the preliminary feature list, which was annotated as subject to change as well as titled "Preliminary", as we approached release to remove a few things we were not able to accomplish in that pass, but none of those had anything to do with the modeling capabilities slated for v9.0 in Layout.

In Jay's interview on v9, he did say we were looking forward to advancing those modeling capabilities within Layout during the v9.x cycle. Integration was not promised for the v9.x cycle, but was acknowledged as a goal for the future. Further advancement in this area did not prove possible for the v9.x series, but providing a tool set with animateable modeling capabilities does remain our goal for the future.


I dont understand why NT is so against letting us know excacly where they are with this. Is the progress that bad that they have nothing to show or tell?

Again, we've already spoken on this issue a number of times. Folks here have told you that and I've now provided the information again.

Steamthrower
02-01-2008, 03:21 PM
Okay...works done here, guys. This thread looks plenty demolished to me. :D How's about you, gentlemen?

Yeah, I might revert to Amused Observer Mode and watch dccpro go down in flames. Thread's destined for Purgatory in my opinion...

AbnRanger
02-01-2008, 03:23 PM
For not being able to meet a goal they EXPECTED to make, but after much technical difficulty relinquished the notion that they'd get it done within the timeframe they were shooting for, and instead needed to re-think their strategy.

That's the double-edge sword here. You want to keep your customer informed, but should you miss something you will be nailed by some for not living up to your "Promises." That's the rub here...you mistake a plan for a promise. There's a big difference.

I appreciate a company giving me a peek at what's ahead...but sometimes you get a flat tire, so to speak, and get knocked off your schedule. It happens sometimes. Cut the guys some slack.

Communicating what they PLAN (not a promise) to accomplish is more than other companies do.

dccpro
02-01-2008, 03:26 PM
While your here answering questions Chuck.

What would be the logic of redoing the animation system, which is stated to be in the 9x cycle, before layout has modeling capabilities.

I just am having a very hard time seeing how yous plan on pulling this together into a new modern(rebuilt) unified bug free app!

One more question
Are the UV tools going to be upgraded in the 9X?

dccpro
02-01-2008, 03:32 PM
If you do a forum search you'll see that there has in fact been discussion from us on the topic - Exception summed it up succinctly. We were very optimistic about the approach we had taken toward opening up modeling capabilities within Layout. As it turned out, it worked well enough to accomplish what we had initially described for the v9.0 release, the capability to run some Modeler plugins within Layout and use some modeling tools. The approach did not offer the further capability we had hoped, and we had to go back to design. It is unlikely that there will be any further change on this front for the v9.x cycle, and that stands as an example of why "subject to change" is a reality that we've expressed on those occasions when we talk about future plans or publish planned feature lists.


With 9.0, we have reached the point where we can implement major changes at a radical pace, as the new availability of mesh editing functions within the Layout module, added in just the last couple of months, demonstrates. The new structure will allow us to keep pace with the most advanced technologies, and to bring innovation to LightWave users faster than ever before."

just to make sure I understand correctly. When they say "mesh editing functions", they are referring to the "modeling tools" tab in layout?

cresshead
02-01-2008, 03:48 PM
my three penny bit take on this.....[for those old enough to remember that uk money!]

as someone who uses several 3d apps, companies developing them and adding to there feature set is always going to be prone to what you think is going to happen to what actually turns out when you try...take a look at these:--

zbrush...took ages..and i mean YEARS to go from version 2.0 to version 3.0...people were slaggin it off as vaporware and that it'll never come out and when it does it'll be left behind by the other apps jumping on the same bandwagon...and no open beta...you simply had to w.a.i.t
...then people looked over to mudbox, modo and silo and even hexagon saying
z brush is doomed....and look what happened...yup zbrush3 delivered in spades!
it's king of the hill again and actually king of the mountain the others are just living on the 'bumps':D


max...slagged off as old and tired since version 4...and it's still the top selling 3d app even when in the last release [paid for] they added just a couple of features...autodesk seem to go in a feature release then a stability release..
and max STILL can't model with phantom point projection on the surface...what the heck are they playing at!...and no node based materials either...

modo...been out YEARS and every update is a paid version...heck you have to PAY for the demo!...geez! and it's FAR FAR AWAY from being a full 3d app at all...if had jumped to modo from lightwave i'd be limited to stills and camera fly thoughts at best...no particles...no rigging...no bones...wonderful!..NOT:thumbsdow

maya...you pay for point updates...and it's looking ''tired'' by some people who moan about it yet it's still the main app for feature film creatures..
and the price of point updates mean that 3 updates is the cost of a new seat of maya complete and remember some of those updates are POINT updates from *.0 to*.5 and may only '''feature'' stability.

xsi..not exactly breaking into anything mainstream..it's been away far too long and lost most of the studios who used softimage over to maya...they're still fighting to get their market share back but ''going dark'' really hurt them...
and xsi increase the cost of ''essentials'' plus their rendering is not great for animations larger than a postage stamp..with lightwave you have 999 FREE nodes...xsi you PAY for nodes and get just a handfull with xsi ess and ZERO nodes with xsi foundation.

with the re write of xsi...something that NEWTEK saw so when they started to rewrite lightwave they went with an open beta approach so they didn't lose people to just BLINDLY waiting for a new version...

cinema4d...what exactly are they doing right??
was great to see they finally got a film made using cinema4d [open season]
but other than that...it's been a virtual desert of what you can link cinema4d to with tv or film effects...and their pricing policy is just MAD...when you get all the modules it's MORE than maya complete and if you update the core app all the modules break and they need to be paid for to work again including the ''advanced renderer''..okay cinema does have a fur module which supports multicore cpu's which is nice...but i'd never be brought to buy the darn app.
also look at their scheme for mac and pc...you have to PAY to convert from mac to pc....great!...err well it's not great actually...look at lightwave ...you simply pull the usb dongle and move it back n forth for ZERO cost each time and nr ZERO time needed to do so...

mudbox...buggy and now in development limbo in autodeskland!
...was a young pretender to zbrush but all the hype has worn off...

silo...very slow development..

messiah...not much happening recently at all...

houdini...not cheap and hard to learn...there's no free 24hours of videos to look at like we have from the one man video training factory we call ''proton''
bless him!:thumbsup:


so...where's lightwave?


well it seems in pretty good company actually..i think they are doing the right thing..yup it's not as fast as we'd like maybe but at least we can SEE the steps they take..heck we can even talk to them!...amazing compared to other companies really..we pay ZERO for point updates, can freely move from mac to pc..we get thrown training videos each day and have a very friendly community of artist who actively try to help one another and also try to make sure the beta they test gets the bugs ironed out and also some features put in with feedback from the open beta users...


so where's this mythical super app/company that does evrything right which you are comparing newtek to?...:devil:

Chuck
02-01-2008, 03:50 PM
I would rather pay for updates then wait 5 years between versions! LW 9 was at siggraph 05 its now 08 and we are on 9.3.1.

LightWave [8] released in June 2004 and was followed over the next 18 months by 5 updates, the last being 8.5 in October 2005. LightWave v9.0 shipped in July 2006 and less than a year and a half later we are on v9.3.1, with a series of feature changes added in that year and half more than equivalent to another ordinal update and well beyond the scope of the updates provided during the [8] cycle.


So I don't think its too much to ask for NT to give us some info!

Do you think that their tight lipped approach is making people more confident in their progress? As opposed to keeping people updated?

The only way I could see their no communication do them any good is if they have something really unbelievable to show us. Otherwise its just going to piss people off more!

Can you tell me what Maya, XSI, and Max have planned for their releases over the next year or so? If you can, then perhaps we do have an unusual policy in place at the moment.


Hopefully they are hard at work and when they release 9.whatever we will all be amazed, and forget about the long silence!

We feel like we've actually been pretty chatty around here, but yes, we are hard at work and we do hope that you'll find the results worth the wait.

dccpro
02-01-2008, 03:55 PM
so where's this mythical super app/company that does evrything right which you are comparing newtek to?...

Are you talkin to me?

Steamthrower
02-01-2008, 03:59 PM
Are you talkin to me?

Yes, he is...you're the only guy here anyone's getting stressed with...of course he is...

dccpro
02-01-2008, 04:02 PM
LightWave [8] released in June 2004 and was followed over the next 18 months by 5 updates, the last being 8.5 in October 2005. LightWave v9.0 shipped in July 2006 and less than a year and a half later we are on v9.3.1, with a series of feature changes added in that year and half more than equivalent to another ordinal update and well beyond the scope of the updates provided during the [8] cycle.



Can you tell me what Maya, XSI, and Max have planned for their releases over the next year or so? If you can, then perhaps we do have an unusual policy in place at the moment.



We feel like we've actually been pretty chatty around here, but yes, we are hard at work and we do hope that you'll find the results worth the wait.

Avid and autodesk did not presell thier software based on lies! So it puts NT in a different spot IMO!

cresshead
02-01-2008, 04:02 PM
i'd just add that newtek are the only company i can think of that 'give away'
other apps on paid for updates of lightwave so in essence my updates from 7 to 8 and 8 to 9 were more or less FREE...simply amazing

from newtek updates i've had fusion+, vue infinate5 and most recently newtek speed edit...

and people moan about newtek?..
..boy ohh boy...go try spending your cash elsewhere really!...

and if you REALLY need a ''feature'' that lightwave can't deliver on 'right now' then buy an app or plugin that does...you really can't expect 1 3d app to be able to cover ALL needs...heck i have a slew of 3d apps and still look around at other apps and plugins for goodies i'd like in productions!

cresshead
02-01-2008, 04:05 PM
yup...i'm a taking to you!

go on then list out those fantastic companies and apps that are pure perfection!

dccpro
02-01-2008, 04:08 PM
my three penny bit take on this.....[for those old enough to remember that uk money!]

as someone who uses several 3d apps, companies developing them and adding to there feature set is always going to be prone to what you think is going to happen to what actually turns out when you try...take a look at these:--

zbrush...took ages..and i mean YEARS to go from version 2.0 to version 3.0...people were slaggin it off as vaporware and that it'll never come out and when it does it'll be left behind by the other apps jumping on the same bandwagon...and no open beta...you simply had to w.a.i.t
...then people looked over to mudbox, modo and silo and even hexagon saying
z brush is doomed....and look what happened...yup zbrush3 delivered in spades!
it's king of the hill again and actually king of the mountain the others are just living on the 'bumps':D




max...slagged off as old and tired since version 4...and it's still the top selling 3d app even when in the last release [paid for] they added just a couple of features...autodesk seem to go in a feature release then a stability release..
and max STILL can't model with phantom point projection on the surface...what the heck are they playing at!...and no node based materials either...

modo...been out YEARS and every update is a paid version...heck you have to PAY for the demo!...geez! and it's FAR FAR AWAY from being a full 3d app at all...if had jumped to modo from lightwave i'd be limited to stills and camera fly thoughts at best...no particles...no rigging...no bones...wonderful!..NOT:thumbsdow

maya...you pay for point updates...and it's looking ''tired'' by some people who moan about it yet it's still the main app for feature film creatures..
and the price of point updates mean that 3 updates is the cost of a new seat of maya complete and remember some of those updates are POINT updates from *.0 to*.5 and may only '''feature'' stability.

xsi..not exactly breaking into anything mainstream..it's been away far too long and lost most of the studios who used softimage over to maya...they're still fighting to get their market share back but ''going dark'' really hurt them...
and xsi increase the cost of ''essentials'' plus their rendering is not great for animations larger than a postage stamp..with lightwave you have 999 FREE nodes...xsi you PAY for nodes and get just a handfull with xsi ess and ZERO nodes with xsi foundation.

with the re write of xsi...something that NEWTEK saw so when they started to rewrite lightwave they went with an open beta approach so they didn't lose people to just BLINDLY waiting for a new version...

cinema4d...what exactly are they doing right??
was great to see they finally got a film made using cinema4d [open season]
but other than that...it's been a virtual desert of what you can link cinema4d to with tv or film effects...and their pricing policy is just MAD...when you get all the modules it's MORE than maya complete and if you update the core app all the modules break and they need to be paid for to work again including the ''advanced renderer''..okay cinema does have a fur module which supports multicore cpu's which is nice...but i'd never be brought to buy the darn app.
also look at their scheme for mac and pc...you have to PAY to convert from mac to pc....great!...err well it's not great actually...look at lightwave ...you simply pull the usb dongle and move it back n forth for ZERO cost each time and nr ZERO time needed to do so...

mudbox...buggy and now in development limbo in autodeskland!
...was a young pretender to zbrush but all the hype has worn off...

silo...very slow development..

messiah...not much happening recently at all...

houdini...not cheap and hard to learn...there's no free 24hours of videos to look at like we have from the one man video training factory we call ''proton''
bless him!:thumbsup:


so...where's lightwave?


well it seems in pretty good company actually..i think they are doing the right thing..yup it's not as fast as we'd like maybe but at least we can SEE the steps they take..heck we can even talk to them!...amazing compared to other companies really..we pay ZERO for point updates, can freely move from mac to pc..we get thrown training videos each day and have a very friendly community of artist who actively try to help one another and also try to make sure the beta they test gets the bugs ironed out and also some features put in with feedback from the open beta users...


so where's this mythical super app/company that does evrything right which you are comparing newtek to?...:devil:


well I'll say this! Houdini, the one you said the least about is probably the best of the bunch, not for modeling, but everything else! Not hard to learn at all, hard to master maybe! That is what LW's nodal should have been!

I am glad you have enjoyed the vids, They seem geared to new comers, and I can honestly see I havent learned a thing from the ones that I watched! so I stoped watching!
I'd much prefer the vids I found from cageman and oldtekerr!

cresshead
02-01-2008, 04:15 PM
well I'll say this! Houdini, the one you said the least about is probably the best of the bunch, not for modeling, but everything else! Not hard to learn at all, hard to master maybe! That is what LW's nodal should have been!

I am glad you have enjoyed the vids, They seem geared to new comers, and I can honestly see I havent learned a thing from the ones that I watched! so I stoped watching!

houdini-

modeling...have you seen modeling in houdini?:D ...have a laugh it's utter poop
have a look at the free video training from 3dbuzz on houdini for modeling a face/head....

also look at the pricing...if you want particles...and that's the main POINT of houdini really..also rendering is 'not easy'
then look at the learning materials available..literally a handful of them and nr all are paid for and only cover the basics even then

as for stopping watching the vids from proton how exactly do you KNOW you'd not learn a thing or two from any of them?..

i sure did from the cel shader node video for example...you may kick yourself one day from missing a good video!

dccpro
02-01-2008, 04:18 PM
did you even read my post?

cresshead
02-01-2008, 04:22 PM
yup..sure did...though i have a feeling you just skipped thru my rundown of other apps.

so your sold on houdini?...go for it...err.. what are you going to model with and the EXPORT the model from to houdini?

HMM....interesting in that your screaming about modeling IN layout but your over the moon at the prospect of NOT modeling in houdini and importing your model from another app?

....okay i'm really lost on what your beef with lightwave is now!


....would you be okay if lightwave LAYOUT only had an import feature so you could use it just like houdini?:lol:

... i think i've helped you paint yourself into a really neat rendered corner!

dccpro
02-01-2008, 04:34 PM
yup..sure did...though i have a feeling you just skipped thru my rundown of other apps.

so your sold on houdini?...go for it...err.. what are you going to model with and the EXPORT the model from to houdini?

HMM....interesting in that your screaming about modeling IN layout but your over the moon at the prospect of NOT modeling in houdini and importing your model from another app?

....okay i'm really lost on what your beef with lightwave is now!


....would you be okay if lightwave LAYOUT only had an import feature so you could use it just like houdini?:lol:

... i think i've helped you paint yourself into a really neat rendered corner!

I dont so much care about being able to model in layout, although that would be nice!
I want to be able to select points on my model move them and keyframe them, which is rather easy in Houdini!


import and export industry standard geometry formats such as IGES, DXF, Wavefront™, Inventor™, PostScript™, Lightwave™, SDL™, Adobe™ fonts, TrueType™ fonts; export RIB, DXF, Wavefront™, Inventor™, VRML

I never talk myself into a corner!

cresshead
02-01-2008, 04:38 PM
the corner has arrrived!

you can already:-
I want to be able to select points on my model move them and keyframe them

you may want to watch some of those newtek videos....from about lightwave 8.0...

okay it's not 'elegant' but you can ''do it''

Iain
02-01-2008, 04:45 PM
Have any of yous got any troll poison?

dccpro
02-01-2008, 04:45 PM
the corner has arrrived!

you can already:-
I want to be able to select points on my model move them and keyframe them

you may want to watch some of those newtek videos....from about lightwave 8.0...

okay it's not 'elegant' but you can ''do it''

Come on dude.... You need to read the thread from the begining !

No Edit fx, no sockey monkey! These are hacks! and wont work on a large scale!

dccpro
02-01-2008, 04:48 PM
Have any of yous got any troll poison?

[Inappropriate remark removed by the moderators.]

cresshead
02-01-2008, 04:51 PM
Have any of yous got any troll poison?

err...no but he's standing in a painted corner currently:D

if only he had come back with 3dsmax i'd have given him a 'hug':hey:

houdini...ohh dear!....i can just see it...on the houdini forums [if there are any]
...''when will we be getting lightwave quality modeling in this app''...you promised the solar system and just delivered the earth....no moon!...what are you doing!
i want my solar system!...now!:D 8/

cagey5
02-01-2008, 04:56 PM
I don't know why this guys still around. This is oldtekerr. Or any other name he goes under. Banned more than once and people still try to have a civil conversation with him. Ban him yet again and let's move on.

dccpro
02-01-2008, 04:59 PM
Hey different strokes for different folks! The thoughts of modeling in Max scares me!
No matter what software I use, I will always model in LW or Modo!

dccpro
02-01-2008, 05:01 PM
I don't know why this guys still around. This is oldtekerr. Or any other name he goes under. Banned more than once and people still try to have a civil conversation with him. Ban him yet again and let's move on.

This is not oldtekerr, but that guy made some informative videos! Wish he wasnt banned, seems like my kinda guy!

cresshead
02-01-2008, 05:12 PM
you already have 'your solution' at hand then...model in lightwave animate over in the $8000 houdini master or the $2000 houdini escape for commercial work or for showreel or edu projects pay just $99 and animate and render in houdini apprentice or if your tight for cash or simply don't need more than tv res then use the free version..

and for commercial work just add the cost of the app you choose to the project that needs these...

when such options are there right in front of you..and could cost you ZERO and they fit your way of working with importing models/scene into a main animation app then what's the problem really...yeah you can moan about lightwave not doing it ''now...right this minute'' but if you REALLY need such capabilities then stop moaning and move on to start learning houdini that will fill this particular gap in your requirements...anything less is just a waste of your valuable time really.

Chuck
02-01-2008, 05:13 PM
Avid and autodesk did not presell thier software based on lies! So it puts NT in a different spot IMO!

Neither did we. We did publish a preliminary feature list, and of the many things that were on that list very few and minor did not ship with v9.0. We also offered some projections on where we expected to go for v9.x to follow, and of those projections the one regarding modeling did not pan out. We have a couple of other areas that really have not come along as well as we'd hoped, but we also have some areas we had not made projections where we have in fact made some major accomplishments; but what about the results of folks such as yourself being so deeply disappointed over the difference between reality and the projections suggests to anyone that the proper remedy is more projections? Yet, that's what you are asking for.

As for your earlier question, it seemed perfectly reasonable to Jay and everyone else here to apologize that we needed to change our plans, even though they were issued with the understanding that they were subject to change. It doesn't imply a wrong done to anyone, just acknowledges that many users wanted this and would be disappointed and that we did not look on those feelings lightly.

You are using a lot of language that says you feel a deliberate wrong was done. Please rest assured that was not the case. The development team has made every effort to try to fulfill the publicly discussed plans talked about at the announcement of v9.0, and in some cases have had to acknowledge that some of those things just will not be able to be accomplished in the v9.x series. The very great difficulty of many customers with the fact that projections must sometimes change recommends very strongly against making public projections.

I have a unique perspective on two sides of this many-sided situation. As a member of the marketing team, I wrote or helped write most of the marketing materials around v9.0. Not long after, I moved into development team, where I've overseen the process as a very hard-working group of engineers labored to bring plans to reality. In marketing, I and others responsible for writing the publicity releases and information really did make every effort to accurately describe the forthcoming release and the future plans. From the other side of the fence, yes, I would dearly love to go back and edit things down to what we actually were able to achieve. But I do know that both teams were working in good faith, marketing to express accurately, and development to achieve as projected. There is no point whatsoever to doing otherwise in the long run, and NewTek is in for the long run.

cagey5
02-01-2008, 05:20 PM
And yet you share the same speech patterns. Always a giveaway. Seems like you have more to learn from Proton than you thought. He was quite good at hiding under a pseudonym. A small sample below, but your sentence structure and spelling consistency gives you away.

DCCPRO:
HD instance is great I have the 32 bit version now, but it kinda angers me

This is not oldtekerr, but that guy made some informative videos! Wish he wasnt banned, seems like my kinda guy!

Oldtekerr
it is kinda funny hearing how do I delete objects, and how do I make a sand storm in the same post.

I am kinda stuck though... I can do it, but not how I would like to.

dccpro
02-01-2008, 05:20 PM
you already have 'your solution' at hand then...model in lightwave animate over in the $8000 houdini master or the $2000 houdini escape for commercial work or for showreel or edu projects pay just $99 and animate and render in houdini apprentice or if your tight for cash or siply don't need more than tv res then use the free version..

when such options are there right in front of you..and could cost you ZERO and they fit your way of working with importing models/scene into a main animation app then what's the problem really...yeah you can moan about lightwave not doing it ''now...right this minuete'' but if you REALLY need such capabilities then stop moaning and move on to start learning houdini that will fill this particular gap in your requirements...anything less is just a waste of your valuable time really.


Typical NT forum post!
So I cant want a feature without being told to go use other software? Its people like you that NT should be banning if they were smart!

dccpro
02-01-2008, 05:21 PM
Two people cant say kinda?

cresshead
02-01-2008, 05:29 PM
Typical NT forum post!
So I cant want a feature without being told to go use other software? Its people like you that NT should be banning if they were smart!

well kind of:D

no..it's a possible solution to YOUR needs...if you choose to ignore it...that's kinda upto you really...but shouting and moaning add infinitum will not make any feature arrive any sooner .

if your in a production or wish to have access to this sort of feature you have several ways to achieve it...on a small scale you can already use lightwave but on a larger scale you could fill the gap with in your preference houdini.

for me...i fill gaps in lightwave 's capabilities with vue, max and zbrush...

and with max i fill it's gaps with lightwave, zbrush and vue

and with vue i fill it's gaps with lightwave, max

and with zbrush i fill it's gaps with lightwave and max

can you see a pattern?:cat: