PDA

View Full Version : Should I Have Taken This 3D Job?



Steamthrower
01-26-2008, 07:50 PM
To explain things a bit, I most often work in 3D at my day job, usually a light form of arch viz. But I have also freelanced quite a bit during the past few years doing heavier stuff.

My contacts until now have always been directly to the company. I had a couple over-the-internet jobs that weren't bad but weren't optimal.

I just got a job request that after talking with the guy a bit, would have made me a decent sum (around $5,000) but I have decided to pass on it. I just didn't feel comfortable with it.


Dear Sir,

I willing to pay to for your service listed below:

Hi my name is Paul, I would like you to model A 3D Dragon and 3D lion and render it out in photorealistic Picture. You must use only lightwave and you must do a documentation (word file) of how you did the models in lightwave with Screen shots. Get back as soon as possiable by today.

God Bless

Thank You

From
****

And after a few questions/answers, during which I asked the purpose, his following emails:


hi this is paul, Yes This just for educational purpose nothing else, Yes I need a fur for the lion, I want the tutorial to be in detailed word document with Screen Shots. All have to be done in lightwave for texture you can use photoshop. This is for learning purpose only.


Dear Gil,

hi this is paul, Gil are you willing to do the project? Reply ASAP. I willing to pay the reasonable price.

God Bless

Thank You

From

Now this didn't strike me favorably. While I have no problems with people saying "God Bless", it's not very professional in my opinion to include it in a business email. The man's email was a Singapore domain, but he explained nothing - not how he found my company, not who he is, not nuthin'.

So while I have decided not to pursue this, I'd like your opinions on it and if it's a scam or not.

Also if anyone is interested I will refer the man to you, just PM me and since i haven't replied to his latest email I'll let him know.

jasond
01-26-2008, 07:58 PM
That's funky right there.

Hopper
01-26-2008, 08:02 PM
It sounds like it could be many things, but a legitimate job - I doubt it.

--
You know what I say? You fur on lion I pay $5000 when dragon get screenshot yes?
--

Ummm yeah.

Request a 50% downpayment, then see how fast he disappears. If he doesn't bail on you, then give him the lion, then out of good faith ask him for the rest before he gets the dragon.

The whole thing just sounds so wrong...

mrpapabeis
01-26-2008, 09:10 PM
Ask for 100% up front.

I would.

GP

Titus
01-26-2008, 09:17 PM
Now this didn't strike me favorably. While I have no problems with people saying "God Bless", it's not very professional in my opinion to include it in a business email. The man's email was a Singapore domain, but he explained nothing - not how he found my company, not who he is, not nuthin'.

What do you need from him to feel confidence?

I can't say if this guy is real or not but before talking figures I would try to build trust with my prospect client. Ask him some questions politely about his company and how he knew about you, also give to him some info. Here in my city if I want to be a provider for production companies I have to give them a copy of the official constitutive document of my company and also two recomendation letters from two known production companies, maybe you can ask for similar requisites for a foreign company. Do this makes sense?

Matt
01-26-2008, 09:30 PM
I think your instincts were right on this one Ingo, all sounds a bit fishy to me!

Hopper
01-26-2008, 09:38 PM
What do you need from him to feel confidence?

I can't say if this guy is real or not but before talking figures I would try to build trust with my prospect client. Ask him some questions politely about his company and how he knew about you, also give to him some info. Here in my city if I want to be a provider for production companies I have to give them a copy of the official constitutive document of my company and also two recomendation letters from two known production companies, maybe you can ask for similar requisites for a foreign company. Do this makes sense?
Makes sense, but from the content of the corespondence, this guy is an individual looking for training materials. $5000 for two models and docs? Unless he has a restriction on importing tangible training materials from the U.S., this would be insane (and yes, this guy may be). I can see this kind of cash for production ready realistic models, fully rigged and ready for render, etc...

Who knows, this guy might simply be some eccentric bazillionaire with too much money on his hands and a poor grasp of the English language (or should I say Engrish - nahhh that wouldn't be very professional).

Other than that, I wouldn't touch this. Next thing you know he's asking for the "wrong" kind of bank information to transfer money into it.

Titus
01-26-2008, 09:52 PM
I've received mail like this before, and turned down the opportunity. This client doesn't seem legit at a first glance, but you never know.

About the kind of job, I don't find it totally strange. A couple of colleages here were hired to model the robot of this book (http://www.cgtoolkit.com/). The model was used actually for educational purpose, it's just a matter of perspective.

dccpro
01-26-2008, 10:20 PM
Thats funny...
I just got a similar offer, but took it! Just video and audio...and the money was much better!
Mine was a 150 hour course called "Digital Content Creation from Concept to Composite"
Software used.
Celtex
Photoshop
Lightwave(lwcad, fprime, hd instance, and some other free plugs)
Zbrush
After Effects
Premiere

It will be the making of a 2 to 3 min short called "Land Scrapers"
There is also two more courses planed. One called "Project Photo Real", and another called "Game Content Creation"
I plan on starting my own thread here and at SQ to show wips from the projects.
I am supposed to start on Monday if his check clears:D

JBT27
01-27-2008, 04:21 AM
It's tricky - we've had a fair-few emails and phone calls along these lines. An approach for work from an individual who may seem at first a little odd and even eccentric, can turn out to be far more lucrative than jobs for major well-known clients.....and believe me, we have had our time-wasted by some serious 'clients' in the UK.....you just never know who is genuine, and who is a time-waster, no matter where they are from or who they are affiliated with.

I must admit though, there is a peculiar wrongness to this request and I would not have accepted it either.

I agree though that an initial business-approach should look alot more professional than this, and he should have been more forthcoming about the project. In this case I would have replied with questions and put him on the spot, nicely of course, ask for some money up-front - he likes your work enough to have got in touch, so he must be familiar with what you do and your style.....

Julian.

Verlon
01-27-2008, 05:25 AM
at 100% up front, what have you got to lose?

at 50% up front, its not bad.

Matt
01-27-2008, 05:57 AM
And even when clients are "legit", they can still be a total pain, we had one job designing calculators. We did loads of work (good stuff too) and he decided he wasn't sure about any of them. We did the job again and again per his "tweaks" and ended up with something that looked awful.

He didn't pay for the earlier work because he said he couldn't use them. Months later I saw several "variations" of them he'd done using his Chinese manufacturer to change the designs slightly (and very badly I might add).

He was a total clueless nightmare!

dccpro
01-27-2008, 12:58 PM
Yeah, if someone is willing to put out 33% to 50% of the cash up front, they usually will be legit. I wont take a project unless they are willing to come off 1/3 up front!

Stooch
01-27-2008, 01:11 PM
Show Me The Moneeeeyyyy!

Tzan
01-27-2008, 04:33 PM
Just to add to the chorus.

I do architectural house design/constuction drawings. I always do, 1/3 up front, then 1/3 after they approve the preliminary drawings, then 1/3 when I put prints into their hand, none of this 30 days to pay.

Nobody mails me checks, they get nothing unless they pay for it.

Steamthrower
01-28-2008, 07:14 AM
Agree with you all. I didn't take this job but a member of the community has requested that I pass along his info.

I didn't feel comfortable with it, but it may just be me.

Hopper
01-28-2008, 03:17 PM
If your Spidey senses were tingling .... trust em!

ted
01-28-2008, 10:00 PM
I used to be quicker to pre-judge projects. But a number of years ago I learned that some times that first instinct wasn't always right. Many times it paid off big time.
Sometimes the problem was that the individual was just new to the process and didn't understand what to ask and how to proceed.

You are right to suspect it's a rat if it smells like one, but as someone previously mentioned, by asking where he got your name and asking for 50% up front you will sometimes be surprised.

It's like a blind date, most are a waste of time, but sometimes it works out "pretty" good. :D

DiedonD
01-30-2008, 12:56 AM
Even if he is unlegit, you dont know it. As long as he pays before each stage of development and handover theres nothing to loose.

Ive had complete and utter maniacs coming here at this other bussiness of mine. But, in bussiness, its all who pays, not what they are.

I wouldnt skip this if I were you, I know its too late but hey.

Just payed an extra attention thats all.

Thomas M.
01-30-2008, 02:52 AM
5.000$ might sound like a lot of money and it surely is. But for a photoreal lion you should be aware of spending probably a month of your time (at least). Fur in LW is a pain in the bump and will take probably 7 days to tweak. Even if you got a fast machine. I've been through creating horses, jockeys, octopuses, squids, snowmen and interiors. And it will take time if you want something decent. So 15.000$ sounds more like a price which would be appropriate. Anyway, I guess he could sell your model afterwards in Asia quite often without you noticing. Be careful with total strangers.

Cheers
Thomas

Steamthrower
01-30-2008, 06:48 AM
Even if he is unlegit, you dont know it. As long as he pays before each stage of development and handover theres nothing to loose.

Turns out he was nonlegit. The guy whom I referred "Paul" to told me that "Paul" backed up and said he was a student and was only going to pay $200 USD.

Buying a good grade, that's what he was doing, the blot on the face of the earth.

Stooch
01-30-2008, 10:03 AM
hahah what a loser. talk about screwing his own education. yeah he is going places.
id love to know his full name so that in the future if i ever come across him, we could have an interesting conversation about his work ethics.

Steamthrower
01-30-2008, 10:14 AM
It's always given me a kick when students try to cheat in multimedia or other creative stuff. What are they thinking? That once they get a job at Digital Domain they're gonna kick back and drink Coke and play War of Warcrap all day or something?

Delusional is what they is, it is.

EDIT: By the way, Stooch, I don't feel bad about giving his name to the world. His name is Paul David and he lives in Singapore and as you can tell he must not be a native English speaker. Avoid 'em like the plague.

iconoclasty
01-30-2008, 12:17 PM
When you first started this thread I thought if sounded like a kid trying to pay for someone to do his homework. But I figured that was way too stupid/expensive to be true.

Steamthrower
01-30-2008, 12:49 PM
What really ticked me off is that I quoted him $4,500 and he seemed to think that was reasonable. Argh.

I'm seriously thinking of ignoring all solicitation emails that don't give me a link to a website or a phone number. I've gotten too many of these to waste my time any more.

*Pete*
01-30-2008, 12:53 PM
Turns out he was nonlegit. The guy whom I referred "Paul" to told me that "Paul" backed up and said he was a student and was only going to pay $200 USD.

Buying a good grade, that's what he was doing, the blot on the face of the earth.

heheh...its becouse in a other thread there was a teacher complaining about cheating students, and the advise the teacher got was to ask for screenshots during the progress.....

you could have taken his money, done the job and then contacted the teacher....he would surely learn the lesson (not to cheat) after that :D

Steamthrower
01-30-2008, 01:13 PM
It's insane though to pay $200 for a photorealistic render for your class. I think this guy is totally clueless.

Like hundreds and thousands of other students, he's some kid enthralled with CGI and got all starry-eyed when he saw that his college was offering a multimedia course...and then the reality set in...it's not all glam and confetti, kiddo...

GATOR
01-30-2008, 02:41 PM
Reminds me of a guy who came in for a job as an animator back in '93. I asked for him to bring in some models he created, and I opened the first one and it was a DXF cow I've seen for free on some 'content' disks for the program we were using (InfiniD!!). I compared it and polygon for polygon they were exactly the same.

When I asked him to explain it he said "of course they're the same, I used that cow as reference material to make mine."

Holy cow.

Steamthrower
01-30-2008, 02:52 PM
Makes me wonder about society these days. Can't get something for nothing. Unless you're a rock star.

Matt
01-30-2008, 04:40 PM
Turns out he was nonlegit. Buying a good grade, that's what he was doing

Well, if that's his attitude he won't go far in this business (let alone graduate). People like this become unstuck at some point along the road, you can't cheat forever.

It's like those spam emails offering degrees and wotnot, really p!sses me off, like I need a fake degree! I invested six years of my life, four of which for my degree, from a good University, to obtain the qualifications I needed for my career, I feel insulted, cheeky bar stewards!

CAClark
01-31-2008, 08:37 AM
For a photoreal lion and dragon you quoted $4500??

Regardless of the legitimacy, you had a lucky escape quoting crazy numbers like that.

As for the guy himself, he'll probably make a good producer!

Cheers!

Steamthrower
01-31-2008, 09:03 AM
For a photoreal lion and dragon you quoted $4500??

I think it was a decent price that I quoted. Though I definitely have the ability to model and render a photoreal animal, there were three reasons that I priced it so low: A. college B. young C. portfolio.

I'd feel terrible if I had priced it higher (at the accepted market price) and I had delivered less than stellar work.

Andyjaggy
01-31-2008, 09:19 AM
I'm curious what is everyones average of potential gigs vs gigs that happen?

It seems I get about 1 potential freelance gig a month but about 80% of them never materialize. Just wondering if maybe I charge to much.........

Titus
01-31-2008, 09:53 AM
I'm curious what is everyones average of potential gigs vs gigs that happen?

It seems I get about 1 potential freelance gig a month but about 80% of them never materialize. Just wondering if maybe I charge to much.........

1 in 10 here.

Steamthrower
01-31-2008, 10:02 AM
I'd say that the vast majority of mine never materialize. And they're normally not oddball deals like the current thing here. Guy in Vermont wants me to model two dozens views of various building girders...company from Ohio wants simulation of a hazmat machine...and they kind of just drop out.

Normally after I tell them I charge $100/hr for modeling and animation. I think that, being low-end jobs, they don't expect to pay literally half of what their attorney charges...

Then you have the ludicrous offers you turn down, like the woman who called me and said that God wanted her to have a new website for her cat breeding business, and would I help out, i.e. do it for free, since God wanted it.

Stooch
01-31-2008, 10:25 AM
about 2-8 for me. although i am double booking right now since my full time job keeps me plenty busy, i give out about 4-5 quotes a month. just put on a bid for some CA work. its simple enough to try it 100% in LW but might end up using messiah anyway. or maya. hmm choices.

btw inigo, 100/hr might be much. just ask what their budget is and then work with it. it increases the chances of getting gigs. otherwise they start diong math in the head and get scared away. I prefer not to tell people what it breaks down to hourly because sometimes just hearing what you want per hour is enough to send em packing. its better to say what kind of budget you have and then work within it. if they cant afford super high end ****, tell em ahead of time what they can expect and deliver slightly higher than what their budget allows. (and i do mean slightly lol)



I'm curious what is everyones average of potential gigs vs gigs that happen?

It seems I get about 1 potential freelance gig a month but about 80% of them never materialize. Just wondering if maybe I charge to much.........

Andyjaggy
01-31-2008, 10:38 AM
about 2-8 for me. although i am double booking right now since my full time job keeps me plenty busy, i give out about 4-5 quotes a month. just put on a bid for some CA work. its simple enough to try it 100% in LW but might end up using messiah anyway. or maya. hmm choices.

btw inigo, 100/hr might be much. just ask what their budget is and then work with it. it increases the chances of getting gigs. otherwise they start diong math in the head and get scared away. I prefer not to tell people what it breaks down to hourly because sometimes just hearing what you want per hour is enough to send em packing. its better to say what kind of budget you have and then work within it. if they cant afford super high end ****, tell em ahead of time what they can expect and deliver slightly higher than what their budget allows. (and i do mean slightly lol)

That's good advice.

Steamthrower
01-31-2008, 10:50 AM
about 2-8 for me. although i am double booking right now since my full time job keeps me plenty busy, i give out about 4-5 quotes a month. just put on a bid for some CA work. its simple enough to try it 100% in LW but might end up using messiah anyway. or maya. hmm choices.

btw inigo, 100/hr might be much. just ask what their budget is and then work with it. it increases the chances of getting gigs. otherwise they start diong math in the head and get scared away. I prefer not to tell people what it breaks down to hourly because sometimes just hearing what you want per hour is enough to send em packing. its better to say what kind of budget you have and then work within it. if they cant afford super high end ****, tell em ahead of time what they can expect and deliver slightly higher than what their budget allows. (and i do mean slightly lol)

Yeah, that is good advice. Problem is, I got slightly burned with one job after I quoted a solid flat fee based on what they wanted. And naturally they kept adding bits here and there (this was really before I had determined my billing process completely). So I got scared after I had to stay up late at night getting things done, so I switched over to completely hourly charges.

Thanks for the advice though...I'll consider it.

Stooch
01-31-2008, 11:27 AM
well the key for quotes like that is to put down in writing exactly what you will deliver. so its just a matter of how you handle the contracts really. you could even add a clause saying that any work outside of the scope of the contract will incur additional hourly rate :)

they key reason why you dont want to give it hourly off the bat is because they might have a preconceived notion of how long you will be spending on the project (based on their timeline not yours) so if you give him an hourly figure they immediatelly calculate a number that might have nothing to do with reality.

Titus
01-31-2008, 12:23 PM
well the key for quotes like that is to put down in writing exactly what you will deliver.

Talking only in a business side of things, you can put everything you want for writing but is really hard to enforce it. The client always wants more and you have to give something more. Having how far you can move the line is one of the best strengths your producer must have.

Titus
01-31-2008, 12:32 PM
mmmh, some mornings aren't good for write in English.

Tzan
01-31-2008, 12:46 PM
I can fairly accurately calculate my time since a house addition has a well defined square footage. So I give them an hourly rate, but also a range that it should fall in.

So if I think its a $2000 job, I say I bill $90/hour and it should be around $2000, $1700-$2300 range.

Because people are thinking about a house addition for a year before doing it, my rate is about 8-9 out of 10. I maybe do 18-26 jobs a year.

Its a different business so I'm not sure how helpful this is.

Stooch
01-31-2008, 02:01 PM
Talking only in a business side of things, you can put everything you want for writing but is really hard to enforce it. The client always wants more and you have to give something more. Having how far you can move the line is one of the best strengths your producer must have.

in my case it has never been hard to enforce it. then again maybe i just got lucky with my clients. in general all my clients have been very happy with my work so adding some extra costs within reason is never a problem. i usually deal with designers or design agencies so they are typically professional enough and probably deal with the same stuff i do with their clients. also it helps to only bid on jobs that seem legit, I can tell pretty quick how well versed a client is when they communicate their needs to me. generally if they cant tell their elbow from their *******, id steer clear from them in the first place.

mrpapabeis
01-31-2008, 05:45 PM
Interesting thing I heard from a friend the other day;

"Neither explain or complain."

I've been thinking about this as pertains to my interactions with clients. Some good insight there.

to INIGIO 07 ;

Stooch has some right on advice. Raed his posts on this subject carefully.


GP