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logan3000
01-25-2008, 06:30 PM
I am in early preproduction for an independent film which is to say the least, very ambitious. I am looking for capable artists to help produce a level of cgi that is not typically found in an independent film. The budget is, as always, an issue, however, I am working on some different possibilities and am considering some unique avenues to be able to work with skilled artists. I know this is all relatively vague, but I don't want to say too much until I am certain about the details. If you are interested in being a part of something which may attract some legitimate interest and will be entered into festivals at the very least. Please contact me @ [email protected] please feel free to send demos, links to show reels, price charts, etc. as well.

Thanks

Surrealist.
01-25-2008, 09:14 PM
How about more about you and who you are? A website would be good.

Stooch
01-25-2008, 10:11 PM
why dont you figure out your budget so that its not "an issue" and post a real job ad in the jobs section?

logan3000
01-25-2008, 10:26 PM
My company's website is www.lyradigital.com (Everything on it is my work.)

I'm an artist, writer and a "film" (DV) maker. My previous projects have been short films and contract jobs. But, I've been writing a long-form short or, possibly, feature length film for the last year. I can only say that it is very dark and set in the not so distant future. (no MST3K jokes necessary:) .) It has elements of horror, science fact (tweaked for dramatic effect) and a little science fiction (no robots or flying cars). It's more realty than fiction, but I find reality more frightening anyway. That's about all I can say. If you're interested, again please contact me.

Thanks.

Surrealist.
01-25-2008, 10:38 PM
Thanks for the link. Good luck with your project. :)

logan3000
01-25-2008, 10:38 PM
Note the word "Independent". I'm finding what individuals are charging for their time so that I can budget for the actual artists I will be working with. I am a 3d artist myself and make about half of my living doing so (visualizations and prototyping mainly). I know what I charge, but I also know that most artists will determine their price based on their interest in the project how much notoriety they stand to gain from it myself included. If you're not interested don't inquire. Feel free to check out my work at www.lyradigital.com.

Stooch
01-26-2008, 11:29 AM
im working on an independent movie with a real budget . whats your point? Genrally you are supposed to find out the budget and then make ads, not make a post with promises and possibilities. to me it looks like you are trawling for cheap labor.

im posting here because 1 you are in the wrong section and 2 because I want to make sure that you arent here to rip people off. I looked at your site and its alright. doesnt scream "moviemaker" to me. Do you have a producer?

logan3000
01-26-2008, 01:04 PM
Stooch get over yourself.
First off, I am not "trawling" for anything. I'm looking for people who may want to work on a project which currently has somewhat limited funds. I'm not asking anyone to do any work without a financial agreement. Thus the original post "Please contact me ... feel free to send demos, links to show reels, price charts, etc." Notice the words PRICE CHARTS.
Also, I'm fairly certain that the people in this forum are intelligent adults who can decide if they want to work on a project without your input.
Second, take another look at your stuff and then tell me my stuff is "alright". I 'm not claiming to be the best by any stretch of the imagination. But what is it about your site that screams anything? Please. My company is not a film studio, it's a graphic design/multimedia firm. The work on my site is a very small cross section of what I have done. I am full time, all day, every day working for clients. The film is an outside project.
And finally, I am the producer and I am currently planning on funding the film myself. Hence the need to find out what the CGI element of the budget is going to be.
Be sure to send me tickets to your "independent movie with a real budget " I'm sure it's going to be amazing. Oh and thanks for telling me how the film industry works. I have only been involved with several dozen productions. Next time I post something I'll be sure to run it by you first.

rakker16mm
01-26-2008, 05:33 PM
Stooch,

I really do appreciate the point you are making, but at the same time I feel Logan was actually making an honest inquiry. Ultimately neither you nor any one else can prevent foolish people from being taken advantage of, sad as that may be.

Logan,

I am in a similar position as you are now except that I do know what my budget will be, [ SMALL ] and unfortunately I just have no way of knowing if the money will actually materialize. So really we are both in the position of asking people if they would be interested in participating in a project that has many details yet to be worked out.

The best thing to do is simply describe the work you want done and then ask folks what is the going rate for that sort of work. Then you will have something to base your budget on and when your money comes through you can make concise offer.

In my case, if the money comes through, I will have a budget of $50,000. I could blow that on a 42 terabyte RAID, but I have so many other things to get first such as a decent HD camera, computers and monitor, software & upgrades, stock footage ( if any one has some SD or HD Hurricane footage please PM me! :thumbsup: ) In any case by the time I have purchased all my assets and hardware there probably won't be too much money left to pay any one else, so I will be the position of doing most of the work myself, and I can say without any equivocation whatsoever that I am definitely underpaying me :D

Hmmm... well I hope all that didn't come across as too preachy. Oh and to all the folks who are trolling for cheap labor.... That's just another form of Beta testing.

Bluesilver
01-26-2008, 06:54 PM
Hey Logan, check your mail.
---------------------------
To other guys; Pls do not forget that nature always sides with the hidden flow.

logan3000
01-27-2008, 10:49 AM
Thanks Rakker and Bluesilver for responding. I can, again, assure you that I am simply trying to find out what a team of freelance artists is going to cost so that I can determine which route I am going to have to take to bring my story to life.

Stooch
01-27-2008, 01:27 PM
first of all. I asked very basic and legitimate questions.
I didnt tell you how the industry works and after looking at my website i still think that your website is "alright". Your website doesnt look like a movie website. thats exactly what i said, is there something unclear for you? I would expect to see a legit post about a movie project from a more movie oriented site. is this too much? if you get so angry over simple questions, how are you going to handle dealing with workers and money?

Your heated response does not sound like you are a professional producer. You are over reacting - get over yourself.


Stooch get over yourself.
First off, I am not "trawling" for anything. I'm looking for people who may want to work on a project which currently has somewhat limited funds. I'm not asking anyone to do any work without a financial agreement. Thus the original post "Please contact me ... feel free to send demos, links to show reels, price charts, etc." Notice the words PRICE CHARTS.
Also, I'm fairly certain that the people in this forum are intelligent adults who can decide if they want to work on a project without your input.
Second, take another look at your stuff and then tell me my stuff is "alright". I 'm not claiming to be the best by any stretch of the imagination. But what is it about your site that screams anything? Please. My company is not a film studio, it's a graphic design/multimedia firm. The work on my site is a very small cross section of what I have done. I am full time, all day, every day working for clients. The film is an outside project.
And finally, I am the producer and I am currently planning on funding the film myself. Hence the need to find out what the CGI element of the budget is going to be.
Be sure to send me tickets to your "independent movie with a real budget " I'm sure it's going to be amazing. Oh and thanks for telling me how the film industry works. I have only been involved with several dozen productions. Next time I post something I'll be sure to run it by you first.

bobakabob
01-27-2008, 05:20 PM
first of all. I asked very basic and legitimate questions.
I didnt tell you how the industry works and after looking at my website i still think that your website is "alright". Your website doesnt look like a movie website. thats exactly what i said, is there something unclear for you? I would expect to see a legit post about a movie project from a more movie oriented site. is this too much? if you get so angry over simple questions, how are you going to handle dealing with workers and money?

Your heated response does not sound like you are a professional producer. You are over reacting - get over yourself.

:sleeping:

logan3000
01-29-2008, 06:09 PM
Yes of course...

"im working on an independent movie with a real budget."

and...

"why dont you figure out your budget so that its not "an issue" and post a real job ad in the jobs section?"

Why does he HAVE to do it YOUR way?




This is most definitely the pot calling the kettle black. Considering how often you have attacked and berated people, you really can't say that and be taken seriously. :D

Thanks Megaladon. I was starting to wonder if I was the only one who saw "Stooch's" response as strange.

bobakabob
01-30-2008, 05:27 AM
logan3000,

Independent / collaborative projects should be encouraged here. Whatever happened to 'enthusiasm'? Good luck with your project and looking forward to seeing your WIP.

kopperdrake
01-30-2008, 06:15 AM
Aye - good luck Logan - I think we've all done work for budget in the past as 3D artists when we've felt the need to boost our portfolio or felt strongly about the project. I myself have my name down for an archaeological reconstruction which may or may not ever pay, but it'll be good fun in the meantime anyway! As you've no doubt found, there'll be others out there with similar feelings :thumbsup:

Steamthrower
01-30-2008, 06:45 AM
Don't bother about Stooch, Logan. Good luck with your project!

Stooch
01-30-2008, 10:17 AM
Yes of course...

"im working on an independent movie with a real budget."

and...

"why dont you figure out your budget so that its not "an issue" and post a real job ad in the jobs section?"

Why does he HAVE to do it YOUR way?

This is most definitely the pot calling the kettle black. Considering how often you have attacked and berated people, you really can't say that and be taken seriously. :D

attacked and berated people? where did i do that? i asked the guy a few questions and he got his panties in a bunch. you on the other hand always had a problem with my views on macs. where my criticism of macs = "attacks" on you. lol pathetic.

just to put my views in perspective.

I get constant emails with "business propositions" via email through my website. The budget always seems to be a problem and always seems to serve as an avenue to try to screw the artist int he process. Not saying that the poster is guilty, but why am i being criticized for asking questions? did i say that his idea sucks and he should give up? no...

In the community section we have another post about a questionable proposition that was shady. This stuff is alot more common than people think (if you actually get jobs with clients that is) I also have been burned once or twice on forums like these and naturally i am a bit more cautious. Since this isnt a job section post, i feel that i have the freedom to question the poster and if you have a problem with that, then in the words of snoop doggie dog, "if you dont like it, eat a ##$#".


The original topic starter made the mistake of posting a proposition with very few piosts, off the bat and in the wrong section. so i made a few questions taht got him immediatelly on the defensive. for me such defensiveness is another red flag.

"Why does he HAVE to do it YOUR way?"

if you are telling me what to say here on this forum, arent you being the black kettle here? He doesnt have to do it my way and i dont have to do it your way. so STFU and go work on his project.

johnnytwopoint
01-30-2008, 10:42 AM
wow

Steamthrower
01-30-2008, 10:44 AM
^ Second the motion.

Surrealist.
01-30-2008, 12:30 PM
By the way, what is the market for this project? That is, what do you plan/hope to do with it when it is done? I think that this in an area that is weak in most independent projects where most of the emphasis is on getting the thing finished. I am not saying that this has to be a strong point. But it is a help when recruiting talent. Also it does not have to fit into some kind of cookie-cutter idea about how films should get distributed, but I do think it should be part and parcel of the plan when the film is conceived and letting others know what this bright idea was when you thought of making the film is a good way to get them interested. That is, of course, if it is a bright idea. :hey:

For some people that bight idea might just be that they really actually for real know people that can get the project into the right hands, or actually have distribution lines. It could be that the producer feels the film fills a need in the market that is a sure hit, you get the idea.

None of these things guarantee success and even Hollywood films flop from time to time. But I do think it is important to have a good plan. And if you don't, now is a good time to come up with one or evaluate the one you have. If you do have a plan, now is the time to let others know about it.

All that said, A real good script - very hard to find - can go a long way and in the end this is going to be the strongest selling point of the project. And any good script in my opinion comes out of some bright marketing idea - of any kind or from any angle - not just cookie cutter ones. But there should be some kind of angle. Hopefully an original one. :hey:

And lastly what is the good reason why this film should not be made by a larger production company? Why have you decided to do this yourself? I mean something other than "well I just want to make my own movies" because most of us want to do that - self included - but what I am saying is, what is special about this project and your handling of it that makes it something you want to take to the finish line yourself?

I think these are all good things to think about if you have not - and I am sure you have - but it is good to discuss the salient points. I am not saying you have to open it up for suggestions or a round table debate. I just mean it is a selling point of the project and if you have ideas along these lines it is a good idea to let others know what they are and be prepared to talk about them, because people will ask. :)

rakker16mm
01-30-2008, 12:51 PM
attacked and berated people? where did i do that?

I think it may have been when you wrote...


to me it looks like you are trawling for cheap labor.

Granted not every one would have been offended by that comment but some folks might feel as though you were insinuating that there was something unsavory about Logan's business practices.

I'm only coming out to say this because of what the gigs section of San Francisco craigslist has become. There used to be a lot more diversity in the sorts of post there. Some listing were professionals looking for professionals and some posts were amateurs looking for collaborators. Unfortunately it has all but dried up because well.... not to put too fine a point on it but people don't want to get flamed.

Sure there were a lot of folks asking for unreasonable things and offering very little in return but now hardly any one is asking anything at all.

By the way I like the Pushing Daisies animation.

logan3000
01-30-2008, 02:53 PM
By the way, what is the market for this project? That is, what do you plan/hope to do with it when it is done? I think that this in an area that is weak in most independent projects where most of the emphasis is on getting the thing finished. I am not saying that this has to be a strong point. But it is a help when recruiting talent. Also it does not have to fit into some kind of cookie-cutter idea about how films should get distributed, but I do think it should be part and parcel of the plan when the film is conceived and letting others know what this bright idea was when you thought of making the film is a good way to get them interested. That is, of course, if it is a bright idea. :hey:

For some people that bight idea might just be that they really actually for real know people that can get the project into the right hands, or actually have distribution lines. It could be that the producer feels the film fills a need in the market that is a sure hit, you get the idea.

None of these things guarantee success and even Hollywood films flop from time to time. But I do think it is important to have a good plan. And if you don't, now is a good time to come up with one or evaluate the one you have. If you do have a plan, now is the time to let others know about it.

All that said, A real good script - very hard to find - can go a long way and in the end this is going to be the strongest selling point of the project. And any good script in my opinion comes out of some bright marketing idea - of any kind or from any angle - not just cookie cutter ones. But there should be some kind of angle. Hopefully an original one. :hey:

And lastly what is the good reason why this film should not be made by a larger production company? Why have you decided to do this yourself? I mean something other than "well I just want to make my own movies" because most of us want to do that - self included - but what I am saying is, what is special about this project and your handling of it that makes it something you want to take to the finish line yourself?

I think these are all good things to think about if you have not - and I am sure you have - but it is good to discuss the salient points. I am not saying you have to open it up for suggestions or a round table debate. I just mean it is a selling point of the project and if you have ideas along these lines it is a good idea to let others know what they are and be prepared to talk about them, because people will ask. :)

Thanks to all of you who have something consrtuctive to say. The end goal of this project is to film the full script and then submit the treatment and a long trailer/synopsis (8-10min.) to a friend who is fairly well connected in L.A. If he can help me find someone interested in taking it further then that will be the next step. At the same time, I will also be entering it into as many festivals as possible. After that, if there still aren't any good offers, it will be a Direct-to-DVD release. Which actually has it's own benifits.

As far as why I'm doing it myself, I honestly just want to. I have been working on productions literally since I was a kid (my dad had a production company which made commercials, and T.V. specials.) And I have been waiting for the right idea to be able to produce myself. I've written several treatments but in the end most were too expensive to be able to film without a huge amount of money, and the ones that were filmable just didn't feel like they would stand out from the modern flood of indie films. This story is big enough to be exciting but small enough to actually pull off. Also, I have access to alot of talented people locally who are very excited about working on a project that may actually go somewhere other than youtube. Unfortunately, not one of the is A CG artist or a Matte painter other than myself and, as I have already stated, I know my limits. But as far as film production goes I am in good shape.

As I said originally, I am in early preproduction and I am currently dealing with the minutia of insurance, permits, locations (building management people can be very tricky) and I am talking with the local Film Commision and Police Dept. about the possibility of filming in some pretty interesting places. All of these are budgetary considerations on top of the CG. Anyway, I'm glad that so many people have decided to to at least be encouraging. I hope you all have good luck with your endeavors.

bobakabob
02-01-2008, 09:49 AM
Granted not every one would have been offended by that comment but some folks might feel as though you were insinuating that there was something unsavory about Logan's business practices.

I'm only coming out to say this because of what the gigs section of San Francisco craigslist has become. There used to be a lot more diversity in the sorts of post there. Some listing were professionals looking for professionals and some posts were amateurs looking for collaborators. Unfortunately it has all but dried up because well.... not to put too fine a point on it but people don't want to get flamed.

Sure there were a lot of folks asking for unreasonable things and offering very little in return but now hardly any one is asking anything at all.

By the way I like the Pushing Daisies animation.

Well said. Positivity trust and teamwork are essential to get any projects off the ground. Sadly as they say 'money changes everything'. Legitimate questions are fair enough but some people on these forums seem just a tad too eager to pounce. Anyway if the cynics are looking for work guess they can already consider themselves fired :D

agv
02-01-2008, 10:21 AM
Hi Logan. Regarding the independent film scene, you should check out Withoutabox (http://www.withoutabox.com). It's a great portal for filmmakers to share info on all things indy. It helped me find out what fests were a good fit for The Santa Claus Happy Tyme Show (http://www.santashow.com) and resulted in some nice showings. Plus it helped me network like crazy.

Stooch
02-01-2008, 10:34 AM
Well said. Positivity trust and teamwork are essential to get any projects off the ground. Sadly as they say 'money changes everything'. Legitimate questions are fair enough but some people on these forums seem just a tad too eager to pounce. Anyway if the cynics are looking for work guess they can already consider themselves fired :D

are you talking about me?

because I asked perfectly legitimate questions. the only thing that turned this thread ugly wast he posters response. otherwise a simple and gracious answer would have reflected well on him as a real professional producer. currently I think he is hotheaded and wouldnt want to deal with someone like that, especially when money is involved.

remember these are forums where peole post opinions. if you dont like them, dont post here.

p.s. no professional producer that knows what he is doing would ever go to a community like this and try to decide finances. afterall, how many producers do you see trawling forums? they have ways of finding out market values for all the work and make a business plan THEN post job ads in a JOB section. remember you can get screwed by someone with the best of intentions. money does change everything.

AbnRanger
02-01-2008, 11:11 AM
Genrally you are supposed to find out the budget and then make ads, not make a post with promises and possibilities. to me it looks like you are trawling for cheap labor.At least he's offering some compensation, and it's up to the individual artist to negotiate with him in that regard. Film producers hire actors based upon their projected budget. Look at Transformers...the only actor I reckognized was John Voight (sp?)...the rest were relative unknowns. That was a blockbuster, yet they hired a relatively cheap acting cast. What's up with that?
Just as there are high-dollar actors and low-budget ones, the same exists in the CG workplace.
Why do you find yourself obligated to the role of CG Police and publicy cite someone for trying to find artists that fit into his projected budget? Can't they decide for themselves or negotiate on their own if they fit into his plans?


im posting here because 1 you are in the wrong section and 2 because I want to make sure that you arent here to rip people off. I looked at your site and its alright. doesnt scream "moviemaker" to me. Do you have a producer?See Stooch..there you go. You try to act like you're the CG commisioner of this forum, and then you try to take a snidely little swipe at his work.
Then you try to play innocent. The fact is you never miss a chance to belittle someone else in order to elevate yourself. I thought oDDity was abrasive and rude...but you got him beat. You show yourself over and over to be one arrogant pr#@*:devil:

ericsmith
02-01-2008, 12:02 PM
Film producers hire actors based upon their projected budget. Look at Transformers...the only actor I reckognized was John Voight (sp?)...the rest were relative unknowns. That was a blockbuster, yet they hired a relatively cheap acting cast. What's up with that?

Okay, not to throw this too off topic, but are you serious? You've never heard of Shia Labeouf? Or John Turturro? I can understand not knowing who Megan Fox is if you're over 25, but she's done a fair amount of TV, and was in Confessions of a Teenage Drama Queen. She's certainly not an unknown.

Besides, the real leading characters in Transformers were the robots. To have too many high profile names would have taken attention away from them.

With a production budget of $151 million, I doubt they were cutting any corners.

Eric

AbnRanger
02-01-2008, 12:52 PM
Okay, not to throw this too off topic, but are you serious? You've never heard of Shia Labeouf? Or John Turturro? I can understand not knowing who Megan Fox is if you're over 25, but she's done a fair amount of TV, and was in Confessions of a Teenage Drama Queen. She's certainly not an unknown.

Besides, the real leading characters in Transformers were the robots. To have too many high profile names would have taken attention away from them.

With a production budget of $151 million, I doubt they were cutting any corners.

EricI don't watch alot of TV, but I go to the cinema pretty often...saw the boy on the Disney channel, I think, but other than that, never saw the others before this movie. I wasn't saying they were cutting corners, but by Hollwood standards, they didn't hire a cast with big name recognition...doesn't mean that the acting was poor. Just that they chose not to rely on star power to sell the movie, like many pictures do. Hence my point that they "Shopped Around" a bit with the cast, so to speak.

AbnRanger
02-01-2008, 01:01 PM
Sorry for getting ill with you there, Stooch...but I sure wish you would stop the nasty habit you have of taking swipes at other artists work, which automatically implies that yours is superior.
This isn't American Idol for CG artists...Simon :D

bgraves44
02-01-2008, 02:39 PM
are you talking about me?

currently I think he is hotheaded ....

Wow. That's precious.

Anyway, just for the record, I'm new here and after being on the Spinquad forum for some time, I though I'd try to expand my horizons a bit and meet some new artists and see some different work. I've got to say though, that everytime I come over here, it's some petty pissing contest that I find. Maybe just a strange coincidence...

Anyway, Logan3000, I'm an intermiediate level LW generalist who WOULD be intersted in doing some stuff on spec. I already have a nice career in pro audio but really want to get into film/animation/sfx. Perhaps we can assist each other. Will send contact info etc...

toby
02-02-2008, 12:07 AM
I don't watch alot of TV, but I go to the cinema pretty often...saw the boy on the Disney channel, I think, but other than that, never saw the others before this movie. I wasn't saying they were cutting corners, but by Hollwood standards, they didn't hire a cast with big name recognition...doesn't mean that the acting was poor. Just that they chose not to rely on star power to sell the movie, like many pictures do. Hence my point that they "Shopped Around" a bit with the cast, so to speak.
Actually I think the leading couple were the only redeeming things in this movie :p ( the guy was funny, the girl was... damn... ) I think they were well cast.

It's a good point too, leading actors are usually enough of a selling point themselves, and the robots were the selling point for this movie, no need for much more. There's also some demand for new faces.

Stooch
02-02-2008, 01:25 AM
i completely miss your point. If i feel taht someone is trawling for cheap labor i say it. If you feel that i am unfair when i call his website "alright" then you need to get out more. i think im being perfectly reasonable in everything. infact no one stated that my work is superior other thatn yourself. for which i thank you for the compliment. you are making mountains out of molehills and your negative bias towards me is obvious.
your comment with odditys name is uncalled for and idiotic. he is 1000x the artist you are anyway. your chip on the shoulder isnt my problem so save the hot air for someone that cares.


At least he's offering some compensation, and it's up to the individual artist to negotiate with him in that regard. Film producers hire actors based upon their projected budget. Look at Transformers...the only actor I reckognized was John Voight (sp?)...the rest were relative unknowns. That was a blockbuster, yet they hired a relatively cheap acting cast. What's up with that?
Just as there are high-dollar actors and low-budget ones, the same exists in the CG workplace.
Why do you find yourself obligated to the role of CG Police and publicy cite someone for trying to find artists that fit into his projected budget? Can't they decide for themselves or negotiate on their own if they fit into his plans?

See Stooch..there you go. You try to act like you're the CG commisioner of this forum, and then you try to take a snidely little swipe at his work.
Then you try to play innocent. The fact is you never miss a chance to belittle someone else in order to elevate yourself. I thought oDDity was abrasive and rude...but you got him beat. You show yourself over and over to be one arrogant pr#@*:devil:

Stooch
02-02-2008, 01:34 AM
p.s.

hey...pssst....hey....mr abnranger your insecurity is showing. :devil:

Stooch
02-02-2008, 01:44 AM
lol hmm. this is funny... were you saying something about me being sarcastic and antagonistic while making a sarcastic and antagonistic post?

lol what a child.

p.s. id wager that I have made more constructive and helpful posts than you by a large margin. I also discount all the people that choose to be antagonised by me as insecure in their own abilities. Please find me a single sentence i made that ever says that im better than anyone. just one.

AbnRanger
02-02-2008, 02:09 AM
...your comment with odditys name is uncalled for and idiotic. he is 1000x the artist you are anyway. your chip on the shoulder isnt my problem so save the hot air for someone that cares.That's it right there. You're making an assumtion, a derogatory assessment about another artist and their work...when you don't even know the person.
This isn't the first time...and this forum isn't a platform for jerks to berate other artist's work or their level of experience.
Insecurity? What, for pointing out how brash you are toward others? One thing's for sure, big shot...you must have the dental profile of a hockey player (if you know what I mean), talking to people the way you do...cause if you spoke to me like that face to face, I'd have to assume you are having painful trouble with your front teeth and need help in removing them. :D

AbnRanger
02-02-2008, 02:11 AM
double post...sorry folks

Stooch
02-02-2008, 02:34 AM
but im not berating your work! im stating a fact!

mr oddity has shown more than you have by a large margin. so if you feel undully rated, please show something that proves me wrong. otherwise my assumption is valid. I dont have to know you to be able to decide your abilities. You are CHOOSING to be offended because you are insecure (a logical assumption).

Look here is the deal that i observe everyday:

There is always a person out there who takes my directness and criticism as a personal affront. However for that one person, there are 10 more people who take my criticism or my advice and apply it to improve their art or answer a question. So you can sit here and try to slap my wrist for being the way I am. while i will continue to be on excellent professional terms with all of the FRIENDS that i work with. My criticisms - although harsh - are reasonable enough that people take them seriously and usually end up following them. you dont become a special effects supervisor in half a year from an entry level lighting position by being an arrogant prick. you do it by being reasonable and capable... sooo MAYBE just MAYBE I dont need your hot air, my attitude is working for me just fine.

By the way, you really should pay attention to your assertions when you read between the lines the way you do. Its amazing how much you tell everyone about yourself when you assume things. Self projection is a powerful thing.

p.s. its funny how you automatically assume that Im being derogatory by saying that oddity is better than you. lol. And if i say that someones work is "allright", because it is in fact "allright". I guess any critcism is derogotory for you isnt it? how do you live in your thin skin? oh yeah, you use religion as a cloak right?


That's it right there. You're making an assumtion, a derogatory assessment about another artist and their work...when you don't even know the person.
This isn't the first time...and this forum isn't a platform for jerks to berate other artist's work or their level of experience.
Insecurity? What, for pointing out how brash you are toward others? One thing's for sure, big shot...you must have the dental profile of a hockey player (if you know what I mean), talking to people the way you do...cause if you spoke to me like that face to face, I'd have to assume you are having painful trouble with your front teeth and need help in removing them. :D

rakker16mm
02-02-2008, 04:13 AM
While many threads evolve into other equally interesting topics this one seems to have taken a rather unpleasant direction. I really bad the OP.

I don't want to offend any one... I'm just sayin

DiedonD
02-02-2008, 04:25 AM
Yeah. I too dont like fights such as these in the forum. Its enough of that in real life anyway. Especially dont like it when two talented people do it. Especially like this case. You dont know what to do, and what to say. Weather it would be ok to stop the fight, or must it go down till the last drop... Heavily conflicted aobut it.

AbnRanger
02-02-2008, 04:32 AM
mr oddity has shown more than you have by a large margin. so if you feel undully rated, please show something that proves me wrong. otherwise my assumption is valid. I dont have to know you to be able to decide your abilities. Look here is the deal that i observe everyday:
Have you ever noticed that there are numerous artists here, veterans and novice alike, that for reasons of their own, choose not to post work on here, or provide links to their site? So, your reasoning goes that their work MUST be subpar....is that what you're saying?

You are the only one, besides oDDity that feels compelled to make wise cracks about other people's work or ability. In order for you to slam someone's work, by way of implication, you are boasting that yours happens to be superior. Instead of acknowledging that, you make feeble attempts to turn the tables and rationalize that anyone who takes issue with you on this matter has to be inherently insecure. Why is that? ...please, do tell. Why doesn't anyone else do it...but you?...very telling, indeed.

As stated earlier, this isn't a tryout for a VFX version of American Idol. This thread isn't even a gallery, where you are invited to critique.
Stating that "one artist is better than you'll ever be" (I've heard you say that to someone else before), isn't berating or belittling? HOW DO YOU KNOW?
Are you hiding a crystal ball back there somewhere? Exactly who made you chief judge over every artists capability or future?
It really has nothing to do with me (you attacked someone else's work, afterall)...and everything to do about the words coming from your own mouth. I really couldn't care less who you are or how much experience you have. I'm certainly not here seeking your approval, nor your appraisal...for that matter, who is?

There is always a person out there who takes my directness and criticism as a personal affront. Once again..WHO ASKED YOU? Just who came rushing onto the forum thinking, "Cool...Stooch is online...maybe I can get his critique of my artwork. Then all I have to do is follow his advice and I'll finally be the CG Jedi Master I always dreamed of being!"

By the way, you really should pay attention to your assertions when you read between the lines the way you do. Its amazing how much you tell everyone about yourself when you assume things.Ditto...Yoda.

Chuck, if you are reading this...if this isn't abusive conduct toward another poster, what is? Stooch's demeaning behavior toward other artists here repeatedly (twice in just the past 24hrs) flies in the face of forum rules, just like that of oDDity's. He's been warned before and has proven himself to be a persistent cancer to this community, which is otherwise cordial and courteous...and deserves to be banned if he refuses to show proper courtesy here?

Surrealist.
02-02-2008, 05:22 AM
Thanks to all of you who have something consrtuctive to say. The end goal of this project is to film the full script and then submit the treatment and a long trailer/synopsis (8-10min.) to a friend who is fairly well connected in L.A. If he can help me find someone interested in taking it further then that will be the next step. At the same time, I will also be entering it into as many festivals as possible. After that, if there still aren't any good offers, it will be a Direct-to-DVD release. Which actually has it's own benifits.


I have completed two feature films and a short as director/producer. I have been working at this for about 15 years off and on. That is not a whole lot of films in that time as life and other interests have intervened. But nonetheless I completely understand what it takes to get something like this off the ground and I have been though the festival route as well as distribution on my last film. So I applaud your efforts. You have a long road ahead.

I am sincerely interested in seeing you do well with this and I would really like to hear more about your plans, trials and tribulations as you move ahead. So please keep us posted here as to your progress or you may even PM me if you like.

Also if you have not already, take a look at www.indieclub.com (http://www.indieclub.com/)

Have a great day and good luck with your preproduction.

agv
02-02-2008, 05:41 AM
Hi Richard, I'm curious to know about the distribution for your film (self-distributed or picked up by someone, were you satisfied with the results, etc.), being that it's often the most difficult step in filmmaking. I hope the question isn't too off-topic, but maybe Logan can garnish something from your comments too.

Stooch
02-02-2008, 11:46 AM
Chuck, if you are reading this...if this isn't abusive conduct toward another poster, what is? Stooch's demeaning behavior toward other artists here repeatedly (twice in just the past 24hrs) flies in the face of forum rules, just like that of oDDity's. He's been warned before and has proven himself to be a persistent cancer to this community, which is otherwise cordial and courteous...and deserves to be banned if he refuses to show proper courtesy here?


hahaha. stooch is amused. Stooch agrees that your attitude towards him is abrasive and that you should be banned.

would you like a tissue? a cancer huh? wow. you are so polite mr ranger. really, just a shining example of courtesy. Seriously they should make you a forum admin. We need a nice, psychotic, dogmatic and insecure control freak to tell everyone when they step over the line. This forum would be a heaven of polite people knobbing each other at every opportunity. Where sunshine and unicorns prance about and dispense happiness.

anyway, i think we all agree that you are a tool. so lets just move on. Its amazing that you STILL think that somehow you will change me to suit your idea of a good forum member. what is with you religious nuts? you are always out to tell everyone how to think and behave. and funny part is you are bitching at me for criticising someone WHILE criticising me. so who made YOU the ethics police? jesus?

I get it, you dont like me. fine. I think the best solution for you is to practice and become as great of an artist as oddity. That way you wont get so bent out of shape every time you see someone superior. And try to comfort yourself with your "you bad boy" attitude. or get hem banned so that your little microcosm will be safe.

i dont really care either way but im telling you once again. you are wasting your breath and providing me with a never ending source of amusement.


You are the only one, besides oDDity that feels compelled to make wise cracks about other people's work or ability. In order for you to slam someone's work, by way of implication, you are boasting that yours happens to be superior. Instead of acknowledging that, you make feeble attempts to turn the tables and rationalize that anyone who takes issue with you on this matter has to be inherently insecure. Why is that? ...please, do tell. Why doesn't anyone else do it...but you?...very telling, indeed.

yes it is very telling that you are the only one who has an issue with me. there are plenty of pressional people on these forums and at work that get alogn with me really well. we are great friends a great team and regularly hang out. its amazing how all these people can get along with me so well. Look i feel taht you are insecure. and the fact that you are getting so defensive over it just proves me that there is a grain of truth to it.

But i kind of like your line of reasoning. From now on i demand to be referred to as "the one".

Steamthrower
02-02-2008, 02:11 PM
You know what: I like Stooch.

Of course I hear choruses of gasps erupt across the world as putrefying animators huddle over their screens in surprise...but still, I can't help thinking that in real, everyday, gritty life, Dimitri is a funny guy who's just pretty darn bold.

I think that I would be considered a fairly "nice guy"...but that's only because I don't directly criticise folks that often...of course about the "nicest guy" would be Andy on these boards, but I've even seen him post his opinion.

The difference between Stooch and other criticisers is that he rubs folks the wrong way. He's a cheese grater. Some people are just like that, and if I've learned anything in my more or less two decades of existence here, it's been to just accept that and have fun...

Really, oDDity was a different animal indeed. oDDity was a freak. oDDity could find fault in anything, and he didn't show even a trace of a human heart. He was brutal. He was the Borg. Whereas Stooch is a Klingon.

End of philosophical aside.

toby
02-02-2008, 02:16 PM
anyway, i think we all agree that you are a tool. so lets just move on.
No, quite the reverse. There's far more people that have scolded you than AbnRanger. Even if you only count this thread.


yes it is very telling that you are the only one who has an issue with me.
You're either bs'ing or you're completely deluded. You just accused Wonderpup of being a 'mac user', because he had a problem with you, remember? Should we dig up your old threads? You consistently antagonize people, then accuse them of being unprofessional and insecure if they don't kiss up to it.

If I didn't think you enjoyed all this crap that the rest of us are long sick of, I'd point out to you that it doesn't really matter how 'professional', or polite or whatever you think you are, if the vast majority of people think you're not, then you're not; because it's the vast majority opinion that defines the word in the first place. You need to learn what those opinions are, and stop acting like you define them, no single person does.

But then you actually enjoy this s***, so I won't waste anymore time.

Now go ahead and do the "professional" thing and call me insecure or a tool or something.

IMI
02-02-2008, 02:17 PM
Really, oDDity was a different animal indeed. oDDity was a freak. oDDity could find fault in anything, and he didn't show even a trace of a human heart. He was brutal. He was the Borg. Whereas Stooch is a Klingon.


I'd agree with that. Personally, I would opt for using a little more tact as megalodon suggests, but still, we aren't all created perfectly diplomatic.
I'm not pointing out anything specific here, but I've read alot of Stooch's posts where I found myself nodding in agreement. Maybe it's because I deal with criticism from my own superiors day to day which is far more harsh than anything he has said which I've read...

No comparison at all to oDDiTy, or however he spelled it.. He was just an...

Steamthrower
02-02-2008, 02:22 PM
[email protected]&##???

IMI
02-02-2008, 02:25 PM
Now go ahead and do the "professional" thing and call me insecure or a tool or something.


I'd do that simply for your signature line which some people might consider highly antagonistic in its own right, simply for being there in a 3D forum.

Confirmed -
No Weapons of Mass Destruction
or links to Al Queda or 9/11. (Sep. 2003)


Not insecure or unprofessional, but maybe the other option. :D

IMI
02-02-2008, 02:26 PM
[email protected]&##???

yeah, that's probably close. ;)

AbnRanger
02-02-2008, 02:39 PM
...I think the best solution for you is to practice and become as great of an artist as oddity. That way you wont get so bent out of shape every time you see someone superior Let's get something straight right now, Yoda.
You don't know me...you don't know a single thing about my skill level, experience or future...not one solitary thing to base your juvenile comparisons upon. I actually like it that way...as does a large number of other forum members here, from novice to veteran. They're all a bunch of low-skill amatuers too, huh big mouth?
How in the hell did a comparison between your behavior on the forum to that of oDDity's have ANYTHING to do with his skill level and mine? Explain that for us, won't you please. You have a notorious habit of turning the conversation from discussing software to making uninfromed and unsolicited critiques about the artist themselves. Actually it's not a critique at all...it's simply a blatant attempt to belittle them.
What does a guy asking for help on a project, where he's offering payment, have to do with passing your subjective critique? Who here asked you to assess his worthiness as a producer? Nobody! Nobody made you Newtek's forum Police.
Man, honestly, I hope you have no kids. I can only imagine how you'd mess with their head telling them they'll never amount to anything :devil: ...and you call me a nut? Go figure? :stumped:

we are great friends a great team and regularly hang out. its amazing how all these people can get along with me so well. Sure, everybody likes a cynic and a braggart...always the life of the party, right? You amuse yourself

From now on i demand to be referred to as "the one".Gotcha..."THE ONE to avoid!"

toby
02-02-2008, 02:40 PM
I'd do that simply for your signature line which some people might consider highly antagonistic in its own right, simply for being there in a 3D forum.

Confirmed -
No Weapons of Mass Destruction
or links to Al Queda or 9/11. (Sep. 2003)


Not insecure or unprofessional, but maybe the other option. :D
How in the world can poitical news be antagonistic?

IMI
02-02-2008, 02:50 PM
How in the world can poitical news be antagonistic?


Well, in a perfect world, it shouldn't be.
Assuming it is in fact, "news". What you have can very well appear to be the side of the news slanted in one direction, for the purpose of making a political point. Not to say it's not true, but a point which can easily irritate those who see it as a criticism, as opposed to simply news.
And again, IMO, it's not exactly appropriate for a 3D software forum. A political forum, yes, but a LW forum, no. Again, IMO.

I'm not saying it's not a valid point, just that it is going to rub some people the wrong way, because at its heart, to have it up there as a sig line, it's more of a political statement than it is news.

rakker16mm
02-02-2008, 02:58 PM
logan3000,

Independent / collaborative projects should be encouraged here. Whatever happened to 'enthusiasm'? Good luck with your project and looking forward to seeing your WIP.


bobakabob, :agree: :thumbsup:


logan3000, let me add that I'm very sorry your thread got hijacked. With all the airing of grievances I thought I had accidentally logged onto the craigslist rants and raves section. Perhaps the only thing to do, is to repost your original question in another thread, and hopefully this whirlwind of drama, [ which has nothing at all to do with your post ] wont follow you over there.

Best regards

Surrealist.
02-02-2008, 02:59 PM
Hi Richard, I'm curious to know about the distribution for your film (self-distributed or picked up by someone, were you satisfied with the results, etc.), being that it's often the most difficult step in filmmaking. I hope the question isn't too off-topic, but maybe Logan can garnish something from your comments too.


My film was picked up by a small distribution company. And you are correct it is the most difficult step in filmmaking and always the last consideration on a small indy project where the most attention is on getting anything done at all which in reality is a miracle when that even happens. So for all the people who try and fail at that stage there are those who then never make it through post production but managed to get through pre prod. and production but failed to think through the logical steps to actually complete or erred in the estimated effort to get through post.

Then for all of those who make it through post production there are those who then never thought through fully that is film festivals and/or distribution.

And now we move into the cream of the crop of the literally thousands of independent films that actually have thought all these things through and you have those that actually do get into a festival - any festival.

And if you have actually run a festival - as I have - or work with one, you get the reality on the actual massive number of films that come in that are completed and of those maybe only 1 to 2% are any good.

And now you multiply that by the number of film festivals there are - and many small ones who pop up here and there - then add to the mix the fact that most of the large film festvials are also inundated with product from the likes of and all of the other Hollywood "indy" production companies and even Hollywood studios. Then down from there the scores of production companies completing good quality films with an actual budget and even a few names that yet do not have distribution and look to film festivals as the spring board for their baby, you now have an interesting situation. A very flooded market where for the most part the large Hollywood films in the major festivals win out.

Now on that note, many festivals start out small with the intent of staying "independent" but wind up having to sell out due to pure necessity. You think the indy filmmaking market is competitive? Try starting a festival and see how easy it is to get attention in the press and draw a crowd, sell sponsorship raise money. It is extremely competitive.

So you can see how a festival would welcome the idea and even thrives on the idea of having Hollywood talent they can now boast and bolster up their PR campaign.

Back to you the filmmaker trying to get the attention of the festival organizers with your small film that you were so glad you were actually able to get finished and that you and your friends are proud of.

It goes on the stack of the scores of other filmmakers who feel the same way as you and so they spent the 50-100 bucks (US) to submit it.

So what it boils down to is that it has to be good. The market is so very competitive. Not only does it have to be good, it has to have something that is unique, that sets it apart from the rest. It could be just a great original idea and raw talent. The movie "Pi" comes to mind. That director has gone on to make quite a few exceptional films.

But this is where you can set aside any predictions because really the market is so very fickle. You can't go into it thinking you are going to copy the last hit. By the time your movie reaches the market there will have already been a next big thing or two.

So when thinking about distribution you have to be realistic yet remain independent. By realistic I don't mean set lower standards or expectations or to buy into a defeatist attitude or anything negative, I mean you have to know your business. It is not enough to know how to make films. It is not enough to want to make films as the only reason for doing what you do.

You have to go out and look. You have to study what is out there and see what is being made and distributed and above all you have to be honest with yourself. You have to ask yourself if you are trying to copy what is out there or are you trying to speak a unique voice. And if you have no clue as to what is out there how are you to know what a unique voice is or would be conceived as?


Because there are professionals in the distribution business who's business - and often avid interest - is in what has been and is being made. You won't fool them.

So if you are trying to copy what is out there. That is OK. But be honest about it and then ask yourself. "How is my take on it unique?" or "What aspects of my production will make it a selling point beyond what is being offered?" (And here you have answered the question as to why there are so many cookie-cutter films with major stars in them. And also why some smaller quirky films attract stars. That is because even the small quirky different films that are absolutely unique still need star power to get attention.)
And if you have no name talent, what is going to be the selling point?

So these are things you have to ask yourself before you even sit down and write a script and definitely before you start shooting it so if need be you can can that one and write - or look for - another. So what I am saying is: Study the market. Be realistic.

Beyond that unless you have someone who is going to guarantee distribution sight-unseen up front, you are going to be competing for attention the moment your film comes out of the DVD burner.

If you are truly serious about distribution beyond just a hope and a prayer, you will think of these things first. And if your goal is to just make a film then be honest with yourself and everyone else and just make a film.

And to the topic of this thread. If you have really thought this out well and delivered at the script stage you will not have trouble getting help. And I believe in honesty. If you think your film has no hope of distribution and it is merely a show reel, be honest, tell people up front. People who get on board should do so knowing that are going to deliver the best product they can and put it on their show reel as well. Everybody should win.

And back to your question, my film got distribution and for that I am happy and proud. But that was a few years ago and I am on to other projects now.

Hope this information is of some help.

Surrealist.
02-02-2008, 03:57 PM
You are quite welcome.

Thank you for taking a look. :)

Stooch
02-02-2008, 04:34 PM
yo megalodon



I sincerely doubt anyone would have a problem with your cristicisms if you just USED TACT. I don't know anything about you, but you seem to need a little more interaction with people to understand how to interact properly. And by properly I do not mean you must be nice and sweet - but proper courtesy. You seem to be like an alien who's come here and doesn't understand how humans interact and use sledge hammers instead of tweezers and think that it's okay.


hey buddy. guess what , i work in a studio with real people. im also a freelancer and deal with clients every day. I get along VERY well with all the people in real life, i have many friends all over the country so i guess im not as bad of a guy as you think i am. people really seem to like my direct personality. so its not that i feel that im right and you are wrong, its the fact taht you are just dead wrong in your assumptions. I get along with people very well thats why your opinion of me just has no impact. its really funny to hear you guys (the few guys) trying to tell me that i cant interact with people when the reality is quite the opposite. so thats why your words just roll off my back. what doesnt kill you, makes you stronger.

p.s. I really dont like thin skinned bitches and premadonnas - and THEY probably wont get along with me very well. thing is MOST people arent thin skinned pansies. they can take a good criticism and make full use of it. Thats what makes them good at what they do and thats why i get along with them very well. If you are trying to teach me how to kiss *** and try to get along with allt he whiners that cant take criticism, guess what. I dont want to get along with them. I have no interest to pandering to people like that and i like to see them cry... so keep wasting your breath. it really doesnt bother me, just gives me soemething to do while lw is rendering another preview..

Stooch
02-02-2008, 04:49 PM
ahh toby. lets go back in memory lane shall we? you had a thing for me from the first day i stepped into the office. where i extended a hand you always wanted to snap at it. Its funny, you claim that my mac attitude is what upsets you but everyone else at menithings gets along with me jsut fine. even meni, who i get into friendly spats every now and then. the fact is, you will get respect when you give respect. you are the one always bitching behind peoples backs, you think i like hearing that?

the only person that seems to have problems in real life with real people is you. Im friends with everyone at the office. no one has a problem with me. infact im now a special effecst supervisor. so clearly my criticisms arent unreasonable and my mac attitudes arent really the problem here. its you toby. you had it in for me from day one. where i surround myself with friends and have an outgoing personality, you constantly stew at perceived threats and affronts. oh well, i cant expect to get along with everyone and i certainly dont intend to put on a fake smile and pretend to be your friend. its a two way street. you respect me and i respect you.

face it toby, youa re trying to win a populariy battle on the forums where I already won it in real life. and its not really a battle toby. speaking of professionalism, your depressing attitude in real production is a real poison that pulls down the entire production. after you left things took off in a vertical climb. But hey if you want to sit here and join this kicking circus, be my guest. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself.

and its not that i THINK im better than you toby. I dont really have to think, all i have to do is look at results. they kinda speak for themselves.




No, quite the reverse. There's far more people that have scolded you than AbnRanger. Even if you only count this thread.

You're either bs'ing or you're completely deluded. You just accused Wonderpup of being a 'mac user', because he had a problem with you, remember? Should we dig up your old threads? You consistently antagonize people, then accuse them of being unprofessional and insecure if they don't kiss up to it.

If I didn't think you enjoyed all this crap that the rest of us are long sick of, I'd point out to you that it doesn't really matter how 'professional', or polite or whatever you think you are, if the vast majority of people think you're not, then you're not; because it's the vast majority opinion that defines the word in the first place. You need to learn what those opinions are, and stop acting like you define them, no single person does.

But then you actually enjoy this s***, so I won't waste anymore time.

Now go ahead and do the "professional" thing and call me insecure or a tool or something.

Stooch
02-02-2008, 05:11 PM
clearly im not the only one getting their jollies since you are still posting.

and yes i am waiting for a reply because i can see you standing at the ready.

StereoMike
02-02-2008, 05:31 PM
haha pissing contest, pissing contest!
funny thread!

mike

Stooch
02-02-2008, 05:34 PM
He was the Borg. Whereas Stooch is a Klingon.
End of philosophical aside.

HAHAHA thats funny but i like to think im more of Vulcan that was stuck living among humans and was socilaized to the point of getting annoyed at their lack of logic.
I makes me more human.

http://www.areyougoingtoeatthat.com/images/Spock.jpg

AbnRanger
02-02-2008, 05:40 PM
ahh toby. lets go back in memory lane shall we? you had a thing for me from the first day i stepped into the office. where i extended a hand you always wanted to snap at it. Its funny, you claim that my mac attitude is what upsets you but everyone else at menithings gets along with me jsut fine. even meni, who i get into friendly spats every now and then. the fact is, you will get respect when you give respect. you are the one always bitching behind peoples backs, you think i like hearing that?

the only person that seems to have problems in real life with real people is you. Im friends with everyone at the office. no one has a problem with me. infact im now a special effecst supervisor. so clearly my criticisms arent unreasonable and my mac attitudes arent really the problem here. its you toby. you had it in for me from day one. where i surround myself with friends and have an outgoing personality, you constantly stew at perceived threats and affronts. oh well, i cant expect to get along with everyone and i certainly dont intend to put on a fake smile and pretend to be your friend. its a two way street. you respect me and i respect you.

face it toby, youa re trying to win a populariy battle on the forums where I already won it in real life. and its not really a battle toby. speaking of professionalism, your depressing attitude in real production is a real poison that pulls down the entire production. after you left things took off in a vertical climb. But hey if you want to sit here and join this kicking circus, be my guest. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself.

and its not that i THINK im better than you toby. I dont really have to think, all i have to do is look at results. they kinda speak for themselves.Stroking your ego because no one else will, big shot?
Look Yoda, don't kid yourself into thinking that because your co-workers have more class than you do and are able to tolerate your punk attitude as a sign that you're popular. Once again, in typical Stooge fashion, you flatter yourself.
Face it, you have the personality of a brick, and popularity contests—you'll never win. There are workplaces everywhere with at least one jerk, yet the jerk—such as yourself—is the last to realize it. Everyone else has a problem, right? :screwy:
You talk about reality....reality is, if you go around in your daily life, where you can't cower behind a keyboard, and talk to people the way you do here...you're name would soon be Rocky...not Balboa...Rocky the Racoon. :D
You'd be sporting two black eyes and no tee'fes ;D
I think most guys here can distinguish between constructive criticism and an outright insult. Easy to insult someone from behind a computer screen, but not so easy in person.So either you get knocked out on a regular basis or you don't carry this punk attitude with you to work. Which is it?

I don't have thin skin at all. You keep forgetting that I called you out for insulting another member here. How does THAT make me thin skinned? ...and it's mighty bold of you to indirectly call someone a pansie (thought you were slick, huh,). Since I'm moving out there in your area, you'll get a chance to say that to me in person. We'll see if you talk so brave at LA LW user group meetings, Rocky.

Stooch
02-02-2008, 05:44 PM
no actually i interact quite closely with them. you however seem to have no problems assuming our personal relations after just spending several pages on crying about me assuming things about yuo. I guess you can judge my personal interactions much better from behind your keyboard right?

great fiction about my realitiy btw. takes a real imaginative person. hahha nice try at trying to e-thug. haahahahah. I take it taht you talk the way you did above in real life as well huh?

what a bunch of hypocrites on here. every other post contradicts itself.

matix
02-02-2008, 05:48 PM
You guys are really missing the point here. When someone posts a job in a non-job posting section, they are already doing something that should draw nothing but harsh response.

By doing that you are screaming "IM NOT REALLY SERIOUS!!!". It's showing you dont have the balls to think it all through, figure out what kind of budget you have, and honestly and professionaly ask people to join you. Why would anyone want to even waste their time with someone who doesnt take the time to do even that?

After reading this entire **** storm, i've figured out that halfway through, the guy finally decided to clue people in on his intentions. Why wasnt that part of the original post? It could have possibly saved you all the agony (and stooch the entertainment) :)

I too have been ripped off by fly-by-night wanna be producers. The ones that do the same ****, post a job in a general discussion thread, and/or contact you directly via pm about a job. I then decided that unless there is clear intention up front, budget available and ready for retainment, then i'm not wasting my time.

So it would be within the best interests of the op of this thread to re-post this in the job section if he/she is in fact serious about making his "vision" become real.

Stooch
02-02-2008, 05:50 PM
right on.

AbnRanger
02-02-2008, 05:54 PM
Thing is...if I find it necessary insult someone, like you have others here, I'm prepared to say it to their face. And rest assured, I'd have no problem calling you a punk to your face.

You got me all wrong. I'm not worried about what you say about my work or skill...cause I KNOW up front that you don't know what you're talking about. If I have a problem...it's taking up for the little guy. I really enjoy bringing Bullies down to size. What I have called you on is not for criticism of others so much, but your blatant attempt to insult them and make THEM (not me) feel inferior. If we were in a classroom and I observed you doing that to another classmate, I'd be in your grill there too.

Stooch
02-02-2008, 05:55 PM
I don't have thin skin at all. You keep forgetting that I called you out for insulting another member here. How does THAT make me thin skinned?

The fact that you saw an insult where there was none. a legitimate question asked for legitimate reasons. THAT makes you thin skinned. The fact that you got your panties in a bunch for someone else, the fact that you assume that ANY criticism is BAD crtiticism. You got all upset when i said that oddity is better than you. Please im still waiting for you to justify your upset. I see you fuming and steaming and spraying spittle on the screen in the religious debates and many other pointless debates. going off like a lunatic. I dont get beat up because i know how to interact with people. I dont need to e-thug to make an impression.

Everything i stated (until people started tearing into me) was done with perfectly clear and consise concerns.

Fact is that you are willing to take this on a fanatical level like you do with your stupid religious arguments.

thats why we are still talking... err correction. im still laughing at you.

AbnRanger
02-02-2008, 06:08 PM
The fact that you saw an insult where there was none. a legitimate question asked for legitimate reasons. THAT makes you thin skinned. The fact that you got your panties in a bunch for someone else, the fact that you assume that ANY criticism is BAD crtiticism. You got all upset when i said that oddity is better than you. Please im still waiting for you to justify your upset. I see you fuming and steaming and spraying spittle on the screen in the religious debates and many other pointless debates. going off like a lunatic. I dont get beat up because i know how to interact with people. I dont need to e-thug to make an impression.

Everything i stated (until people started tearing into me) was done with perfectly clear and consise concerns.

Fact is that you are willing to take this on a fanatical level like you do with your stupid religious arguments.

thats why we are still talking... err correction. im still laughing at you.As I stated MUCH earlier...you NEVER miss a chance to take a swipe at someone elses work or ability. Telling this guy he was in the wrong forum, and that, as another member just stated, he doubted his professionalism by taking this route IS CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM. No problem...at all. It's when you take that classic cheap shot at their work. That's 100% uncalled for. If you think I'm wrong, as Chuck or another moderator...quit playing stupid. You were BANNED for this very thing! But again it's everyone elses problem, right?

Stooch
02-02-2008, 06:14 PM
what cheap shot? what kind of rating would you give his website? is it bad, is it alright or is it excellent? for reference, my website i give an alright rating... ( gasp. i feel insulted! how dare i )

look man, judging by your fervor and stoic stace in your religious debates (or shall i say, verbal diarhea) I have no desire to engage any further in this pointless argument. you will not change me and i dont care about you.

so if you feel the need to cleanse away your tears, pain and emotioal anguish with a veritable flood of words. I will leave the stage to you alone.

In the words of a great man: "ENGAGE".

i will go and practice my vulcan nerve pinch in order to steel myself for the earth shattering cataclysm of your arrival. oh thunderous master of contradiction.

AbnRanger
02-02-2008, 06:25 PM
You got all upset when i said that oddity is better than you. Please im still waiting for you to justify your upset. By the way you still haven't explained how a discussion having to do with BEHAVIOR like yours and oDDity's has anything to do with my or anyone else's SKILL.
Saying "oDDity's 1000x the artist you are" (especially when you've never even seen my work, so you have NO idea whatsoever) simply means that you were trying to use the insult to deflect CRITICISM (thin-skinned are we) about your abusive bahavior.
Why do you feel the need to make a remark about anyone's skill level in a conversation explicityly about adhering to forum rules? What do the 2 topics have to do with each other? We are waiting for an answer, Yoda.

Stooch
02-02-2008, 06:33 PM
you still havent shown your work. go ahead, lets see it!

the reason why i can say that he is 1000x the artist that you are (as i already clearly explained) is because YOU HAVENT SHOWN anything. so I AM MAKING A LOGICAL ASSUMPTION. You have 0 oddity has 1000 points. So he is 1000x better than you.

wait. lets recheck the math... oddity is INFINITELLY better than you. since you cant divide by 0.

so i do have an idea. as you can see.

and i didnt bring up oddity. you bring up his name behind his back and used it as an insult. Insults are not allowed in the rules. that you are thumping like a bible. You STARTED the insults. I stated the facts.

contradicting yourself is the only skill that you demonstratively master..

AbnRanger
02-02-2008, 06:39 PM
you still havent shown your work. go ahead, lets see it!

the reason why i can say that he is 1000x the artist that you are (as i already clearly explained) is because YOU HAVENT SHOWN anything. so I AM MAKING A LOGICAL ASSUMPTION. You have 0 oddity has 1000 points. So he is 1000x better than you.

wait. lets recheck the math... oddity is INFINITELLY better than you. since you cant divide by 0.

so i do have an idea. as you can see.That's the point! The conversation had N-O-T-H-I-N-G to do with oDDity's skill nor mine. Point to me where I compared myself to him. Tell us why the discussion about you insulting others takes a sudden turn toward a comparison between his skill and mine. What warranted the change of topic? I'll tell you why it turned...because that's your classic way of trying to insult someone, and get the topic off of you.
Secondly, Yoda, there are numerous artists here who haven't displayed their work here, or provided web links.
So, go ahead and tell them like you're telling me, that it automatically means their work is crap, right?

Steamthrower
02-02-2008, 06:40 PM
Humanity:

Resistance is futile. I predict an estimated Thread Life Span of approximately 14 more hours.

matix
02-02-2008, 06:44 PM
Damn, how many times is Ranger going to bring up that Stooch got banned? Is he trying to drive something (or someone) home? If you cant take critisism, then you are in the wrong business, no matter the level. Sugar coating your critiques of someone elses work isnt doing anyone a favor. There is a tactful way to take very forward critisism, and its not by crying like a little b.itch.

Nothing in life worth having comes easy.

For me, that means that to become a better motion graphics artist, i'd rather take a kick in the man purse from Stooch, then get smoke blown up my *** by whiney, religious, hacks anyday. I've been at the painful end of Stooch's cirtique but you know what; his review of my work did two things.

1.) Gave me ideas on how to better it.

2.) Forcing me to admit that there are parts of my composition that inside, I knew could use improvement but didnt want to deal with.

At the end of the day, I still have two arms, two legs, and two balls, and i'm a better person for it.

matix
02-02-2008, 06:46 PM
The conversation had N-O-T-H-I-N-G to do with oDDity's skill nor mine.

In for links to AbdRanger's work! :thumbsup:

AbnRanger
02-02-2008, 06:52 PM
Damn, how many times is Ranger going to bring up that Stooch got banned? Is he trying to drive something (or someone) home? If you cant take critisism, then you are in the wrong business, no matter the level. Sugar coating your critiques of someone elses work isnt doing anyone a favor. There is a tactful way to take very forward critisism, and its not by crying like a little b.itch.

Nothing in life worth having comes easy.

For me, that means that to become a better motion graphics artist, i'd rather take a kick in the man purse from Stooch, then get smoke blown up my *** by whiney, religious, hacks anyday. I've been at the painful end of Stooch's cirtique but you know what; his review of my work did two things.

1.) Gave me ideas on how to better it.

2.) Forcing me to admit that there are parts of my composition that inside, I knew could use improvement but didnt want to deal with.

At the end of the day, I still have two arms, two legs, and two balls, and i'm a better person for it.Your missing something here Matix. This thread isn't about my work...nor was my intial posts directed to Stooch. It was about him repeatedly bashing other artists..INTENTIONALLY...as an insult, not constructive criticism. That's what the gallery is for, is it not?

You don't know Stooch the way most of us here do. We have to keep reminding him why he was banned in the first place. He sees nothing wrong with the way he insults people at various times. He still thinks he's popular.

AbnRanger
02-02-2008, 06:56 PM
In for links to AbdRanger's work! :thumbsup:Why? so someone can spit on it?
What does ANYONE'S work here have to do with this thread or a discussion about forum rules? Please, break it down for me. I'm missing something.
Perhaps I can make it more simple...THE PLACE FOR CRITIQUES OF ARTIST'S WORK IS IN THE GALLERY...not here. See how easy that was?

matix
02-02-2008, 07:05 PM
Your missing something here Matix. This thread isn't about my work...nor was my intial posts directed to Stooch. It was about him repeatedly bashing other artists..INTENTIONALLY...as an insult, not constructive criticism. That's what the gallery is for, is it not?

You don't know Stooch the way most of us here do. We have to keep reminding him why he was banned in the first place. He sees nothing wrong with the way he insults people at various times. He still thinks he's popular.


No, I don't think i'm missing anything here. The title of this thread obviously doesnt reflect its content, especially since your period started. So since its not about finding people to work on its project, and you're standing on a soapbox; why not make it about you? If you see Stooch's critiques as insults then you have a lot to learn. I think of Stooch's critiques on the same level as a pissed off account executive, or a creative director who has years of experienece. I think you and everyone else complaining about Stooch's opinions on everything need to get over it. Your going to learn that in the real world, at real studios, or agencies you cant tell your superior or client to change his/her tone, or be more tactful. Thats the fastest way to find yourself out on your ***.

I've worked closely with Stooch, fought creative battles, shared an office, and even locked the window controls in my car, farted, and laughed as he desperatly tried to roll the windows down. So I think its safe to say that I know Stooch better than anyone here, and its you who doesnt know Stooch like I do.

He co-existed with some of the most idiotic, and talentless pre-madonnas in the creative advertising industry and did just fine.

So lets see some of your work already.

matix
02-02-2008, 07:06 PM
Perhaps I can make it more simple...THE PLACE FOR CRITIQUES OF ARTIST'S WORK IS IN THE GALLERY...not here. See how easy that was?


And perhaps I can make it more simple...THE PLACE FOR JOB POSTINGS AND INQUIRIES IS NOT THE "LW - COMMUNITY" FORUM.


Still waiting to see what you've done with all the talent you posses. Come on, just a peek?

matix
02-02-2008, 07:09 PM
Why? so someone can spit on it?


How about believing in your work? Sounds like even you dont like it if you assume we're all going to **** on it.

AbnRanger
02-02-2008, 07:34 PM
Look down the list of posts in any thread and you'll find a good number of other artists without links to websites. I'm not obliging Stooch because he wants to be an arse. What's more is the fact that I don't care for his critique or yours, for that matter.
And if I...in all honestly here...were seeking critique, I'd go to the gallery to do so...not because some punk was trying to goad me into doing so. Nice try though.
I thought you might be sitting right there with Yoda.

You said this wasn't the right place to ask for help on a project...fair enough. I agreed with you earlier than that.
Likewise, then, if your point is valid in that regard, then it stands to reason that this isn't the appropriate place (thread and forum) for criticizing others work, correct?

Stooch
02-02-2008, 07:48 PM
So, go ahead and tell them like you're telling me, that it automatically means their work is crap, right?

if that is what you think. then there is no hope for you. seriously i dont think it matters what i say. you will hear what you want. Thanks matix for chiming in. Yeah so here is a guy that actually worked with me. there are more lurking around here but the point is, i dont make friends my insulting everyone i see. MY friends see value in my opinion and i see value in theirs. Tahts the real secret here. The only way you can get by if you are a HACK is by kissing *** of eveyone around you. However at the end of the day you are still a hack with nothing to show for it (hence me insisting on you showing your work). its the people that use critique to better themselves that get ahead in this world without the need to kiss ***.

and its funny, but I never go off on poeple who critique me. You dont see me getting my panties in a bunch. I WELCOME you to tear my work apart. I have my website out there for everyone to see. Im not afraid of showing it. I dont think its the best i just said that my website is "alright". the very same word i used to describe the OPs website, so if im really insulting him, then i must be insulting myself.

so the moral of the story is: if you want to live your life like abnranger, relying on your *** kissing abilities instead of talent, then i guess you should listen to his advice and side with him. Practice what he preaches, and remain insecure about yourself. Afterall abn, if you WERE secure in your artwork, if you CAN take criticism, if you DO have a thick skin, WHY arent you showing your work?

if you want to be a better artist, be taken seriously and respected for the value you bring, you need to sit back, take a breath and relax. and realize that i have nothing to gain from insulting you, so why automatically treat me like an enemy. go back and read my original responses. the insults and attitude started flying my way, even after i expressed my reasons for saying what i did. And i dont regret it one second and this has been very amusing. I wont lie. ive been laughing all the way. Because its so much better than always playing the victim.

matix
02-02-2008, 07:52 PM
Look down the list of posts in any thread and you'll find a good number of other artists without links to websites. I'm not obliging Stooch because he wants to be an arse. What's more is the fact that I don't care for his critique or yours, for that matter.
And if I...in all honestly here...were seeking critique, I'd go to the gallery to do so...not because some punk was trying to goad me into doing so. Nice try though.
I thought you might be sitting right there with Yoda.

You said this wasn't the right place to ask for help on a project...fair enough. I agreed with you earlier than that.
Likewise, then, if your point is valid in that regard, then it stands to reason that this isn't the appropriate place (thread and forum) for criticizing others work, correct?


Stooch and I are seperated by 2 time zones Mr. Paranoid. The fact that you dont care for our critique means nothing really because we're not talking about your work. You really shouldnt bother yourself with critique about other people and their work.

I agree with you about this not being the place for criticizing others work. Want me to start a thread in the gallery section?

"Wanted: Work by AbnRanger"

Maybe then i'll be able to tell if you dont care to offer up any, or you are just hiding it from everyone.

AbnRanger
02-02-2008, 08:32 PM
Stooch and I are seperated by 2 time zones Mr. Paranoid. The fact that you dont care for our critique means nothing really because we're not talking about your work. You really shouldnt bother yourself with critique about other people and their work.

I agree with you about this not being the place for criticizing others work. Want me to start a thread in the gallery section?

"Wanted: Work by AbnRanger"

Maybe then i'll be able to tell if you dont care to offer up any, or you are just hiding it from everyone.Look...I'm not dodging honest critique, but I have local artists that I've looked to in that regard, and I since most everything I've done to this point is done largely if not exclusively in 3ds Max, it wouldn't be appropriate, IMO, showing that in a LW forum. Plus why come here with WIP's knowing guys like oDDity and your buddy Stooch will try to trash it just for the sake of trashing it...when you can go elsewhere and get honest critiques from people who WANT to help?

matix
02-02-2008, 09:39 PM
Plus why come here with WIP's knowing guys like oDDity and your buddy Stooch will try to trash it just for the sake of trashing it...when you can go elsewhere and get honest critiques from people who WANT to help?


Oh come off it, Stooch doesnt trash anything just to do it. If you cant take the heat get out of the kitchen.

Why do you think it would be innappropriate to show your max work here? That other guy uses poser and has no problem showing his work for critique. I think there is something more here.

Stooch
02-02-2008, 10:09 PM
matix went to school with me. he also worked with me. he is also one of my best friends. and chances are that i will be in the position to decide if YOU get hired. not the other way around.

and i dont care what you think of me. for the last time. so spare me. i got where i am now precisely because of my attitude, my work ethic and how i interact with people. so you guys are really in no position to lecture me.

so many excuses about your insecurity. hah. 3dsmax... please. if you are good at 3d tools dont matter.

as far as nasty vindictive. no, i think you are just full of hot air.

Stooch
02-02-2008, 10:16 PM
p.s. I have the same direct attitude at work. However the people that i work with are professionals. So i dont have to deal with this circus of wannabes.

anyway have fun in nashville and michingan. im sure you guys are movers and shakers in the industry right? Hollywood is where the bigboys play and engaging in this pissing contest is the closest you are going to get with your attitude.

AbnRanger
02-02-2008, 10:55 PM
...so many excuses about your insecurity. hah. 3dsmax... please. if you are good at 3d tools dont matter.So what's the end game? What purpose would it serve? Who would I be trying to impress. I've said it over and over, but I guess it needs to be repeated again....I don't feel any compulsion to impress Stooch. I don't care about Stooch's appraisal. Never have. So I have nothing to gain by playing your juvenile game, like a bully in a playground. Unlike you, I haven't been boasting about having climbed the golden ladder to obtain CG elite status.

If anybody in these forums is blowing hot air...it's you, Yoda.

Stooch
02-02-2008, 10:57 PM
lol. i dont know what did you want to achieve by starting this pissfest? I already explained what it would achieve a few posts up. why do you need things repeated so much? are you slow?

AbnRanger
02-02-2008, 11:14 PM
lol. i dont know what did you want to achieve by starting this pissfest? I already explained what it would achieve a few posts up. why do you need things repeated so much? are you slow?I never said a single word about your work, or any other artist's here. I haven't puffed myself up as the Grand Wizard of the CG domain as you have. So why, then would anyone....anyone feel the need to challenge the quality of my work, or offer to give me a gloomy forecast of my future career prospects? I haven't provoked anyone here to do so.

This is simply your little game. I'm not bound by the rules of your silly little game. What you are doing is what bullies do at school...go up to kids, without provocation, shove 'em and reply, "What'cha ya gonna do? Come chicken boy..."

Simply juvenile. Where a person is at experience-wise or skill wise...what in the hell does that have to do with you? You're being a flat out punk trying to compare yourself or anyone else here to another. You still haven't explained how oDDity's skill level has any bearing on mine. So, what if he is a few years ahead of me in experience. What's your freaking point? If he's better or worse...what the funk is it to you? Why is it so important to you, that you have to attempt to use his talent as a weapon against me or anyone else here. I can't see the relevance, Yoda. Help me see it more clearly

Stooch
02-02-2008, 11:33 PM
"I haven't puffed myself up as the Grand Wizard of the CG domain as you have."

where have i done that? ok i think its pretty clear that you are a psycho. and a hack with nothing to show at that. you are just convincing yourself buddy. as always. anyway i think i will have more fun reading a bible.

toodles.

AbnRanger
02-02-2008, 11:37 PM
for that matter...and for arguements sake, if I said oDDity is million times the artist Stooch is...whether it's true or not...so what? What's the point? There is no point. It's just an insult, designed to bring you down. Anybody disagree?

And if I said Stooch, your reel is alright, for an entry-level job, so who is the dingleberry that hired you as a supervisor? Would that not be an insult?

Stooch
02-02-2008, 11:41 PM
no actually i would agree that in some aspects he is abetter artist then me and i could learn alot from him
see i dont have a problem with accepting talent.

thatse really your problem you just cant stomach my opinion. tahts why you are afraid of showing your work and tahst why you are so insecure and thats the root of the problem here.

nothing would be an insult from you because i nkow that you are just butthurt to be called out for your *** kissing ways.

fact is i encounter plenty of people like you from time to time. they all share the same trait, insecure in their own abilities and willing to lash out on anyone taht they perceive a threat. Even when you arent a part of the converasiont. you are so shallow and predictable that i can have endless fun with you as you stumble around and contradict yourself with every post.

from this entire conversation i learned taht you arent too bright, so you cant possibly be much of a problem solver or anyone worthwhile. so keep whining, its not going to make you any better at CG and wont change a thing.

AbnRanger
02-02-2008, 11:43 PM
"I haven't puffed myself up as the Grand Wizard of the CG domain as you have."

where have i done that? ok i think its pretty clear that you are a psycho. and a hack with nothing to show at that. you are just convincing yourself buddy. as always. anyway i think i will have more fun reading a bible.

toodles.If I'm a hack with nothing to show, then you're saying the same about half the members here or better...what, just because I refuse to play your stupid little schoolground game of "mine is better than yours..."?

Stooch
02-02-2008, 11:48 PM
half the members here are smart enough not to tangle with me over something so stupid. they are probablby laughing their asses off reading this thread where you repeatedly fall flat on your face in your pointless crusade to nowhere. its not about this forum or anyone else. its just your insecurities thats why you are the only one talking.

you keep on saying OVER AND OVER AND OVER hwo i think that im the best even though i have stated repeatedly on the contrary. Honestly, you must be incredibly dense to continue along that line after it has been rebuked atleast 5 times. i guess you are a typical religious nutjob, its like arguing about god. you will just plug your ears and repeat the same thing over and over and over and hope that somehow it will change my pov.

fact is that the only person thinks that i am a god of CG is YOU so why dont you juust STFU get on your knees and give me a good worshipping?

Stooch
02-02-2008, 11:56 PM
thats the smartest thing you have posted yet. i think you should stick to pictures.

AbnRanger
02-02-2008, 11:58 PM
no actually i would agree that in some aspects he is abetter artist then me and i could learn alot from him
see i dont have a problem with accepting talent.

thatse really your problem you just cant stomach my opinion. tahts why you are afraid of showing your work and tahst why you are so insecure and thats the root of the problem here.

nothing would be an insult from you because i nkow that you are just butthurt to be called out for your *** kissing ways.so, just who's am I supposedly kissing?

I called you out for your punk behavior...simple as that. I don't care WHAT your opinion is. It was just obvious that you tried to pull the same trick on me, for no other reason than to insult...there was not one constructive thing about your comment at all...never is...so don't pretend to be stupid or innocent here. Most folks here can see past your little game. They know constructive criticism when they see it and they know cheap shots and insults when they see it...so you can't hide behind the veil of constructive criticism. We know your habits too well. That's why you got banned, Mr. "I didn't do anything—it's your imagination"

Stooch
02-03-2008, 12:00 AM
hey mr ranger. after having this conversation. i am convinced that you are too stupid to be a wothwhile cg artist.

AbnRanger
02-03-2008, 12:02 AM
hey mr ranger. after having this conversation. i am convinced that you are too stupid to be a wothwhile cg artist.That's fine by me...won't lose a wink of sleep worried about what you think of me or anyone else

Stooch
02-03-2008, 12:04 AM
if you want to be a better artist, be taken seriously and respected for the value you bring, you need to sit back, take a breath and relax. and realize that i have nothing to gain from insulting you, so why automatically treat me like an enemy. go back and read my original responses. the insults and attitude started flying my way, even after i expressed my reasons for saying what i did. And i dont regret it one second and this has been very amusing. I wont lie. ive been laughing all the way. Because its so much better than always playing the victim.

enjoy.

AbnRanger
02-03-2008, 12:04 AM
Please tell us how your opinions have the magical ability to dictate the course of someone's career one way or the other, Yoda.
Enlighten us, won't you.
Maybe I can make it to one of the upcoming LA LW Usergroup meetings and you can bring your crystal ball...revealing everyone's future. That'd be cool, huh?

Stooch
02-03-2008, 12:06 AM
if you want to be a better artist, be taken seriously and respected for the value you bring, you need to sit back, take a breath and relax. and realize that i have nothing to gain from insulting you, so why automatically treat me like an enemy. go back and read my original responses. the insults and attitude started flying my way, even after i expressed my reasons for saying what i did. And i dont regret it one second and this has been very amusing. I wont lie. ive been laughing all the way. Because its so much better than always playing the victim.

enjoy

AbnRanger
02-03-2008, 12:13 AM
half the members here are smart enough not to tangle with me...fact is that the only person thinks that i am a god of CG is YOU so why dont you juust STFU get on your knees and give me a good worshipping?
Like I said...I'm coming your way soon enough. We'll see if you can back up your words or not. I promise you...it won't be me who's on their knees

Stooch
02-03-2008, 12:14 AM
if you want to be a better artist, be taken seriously and respected for the value you bring, you need to sit back, take a breath and relax. and realize that i have nothing to gain from insulting you, so why automatically treat me like an enemy. go back and read my original responses. the insults and attitude started flying my way, even after i expressed my reasons for saying what i did. And i dont regret it one second and this has been very amusing. I wont lie. ive been laughing all the way. Because its so much better than always playing the victim.

e-thug.

AbnRanger
02-03-2008, 12:20 AM
e-thug.Whatever you want to call me...When I'm standing in front of you we'll see if your speech is the same as it is here... Keyboard coward

Surrealist.
02-03-2008, 12:22 AM
WOW! OK I guess the thread is officially hijacked. OK my opinion for what it is worth.

Artistic criticism is fine if you can recommend a better way to do it. It does not really matter if it is harsh as long as the ideas to improve are good and above all workable. A little niceness goes a long way if it is used to get someone to see something they would not otherwise see. Or be willing to do something they would otherwise avoid doing. But some people are not good at that.

Personally I am not above giving tips on a better way something can be done - provided that I actually am experienced enough in the area to actually have a better idea. Criticism at it's core should be ruthless. If you care about a fellow artist enough to see them improve it will be and should be. Whether or not it is packaged in a nice way or not is secondary. If the criticism given results in a better way to accomplish something and it gets implemented and actually improves the skill and knowledge of the artist then it is good criticism - even in delivered in a harsh way.

Another thing to consider is whether or not the artist actually is at a skill level to be able to actually assimilate certain information. They simply may not be ready or skilled enough to implement criticisms that are over their head. So good criticism would ideally be at their next level of improvement and it should be ruthless in doing so.

Stooch
02-03-2008, 12:23 AM
This isnt about being a reasonable ctitic, its about mr rangers psychosis.

AbnRanger
02-03-2008, 12:34 AM
This isnt about being a reasonable ctitic, its about mr rangers psychosis.No psychosis here, bub. You're the one who started this and I aim to end it...by eventually seeing for myself, in person, if you actually have the backbone to speak like this, face to face. I'm wagering that you don't. I think you're just a sniveling little punk. We'll see once we're both out from behind the monitors.
Go to the pub, here, in England, in Germany, Denmark, Austrailia....anywhere...and talk to people there the way you do here. Somebody's going to help you with your dentalwork...bet that. Won't take a psychotic to do it, either

Stooch
02-03-2008, 12:38 AM
ill see you in la then. good luck with your career. :rolleyes:

AbnRanger
02-03-2008, 12:46 AM
WOW! OK I guess the thread is officially hijacked. OK my opinion for what it is worth.

Artistic criticism is fine if you can recommend a better way to do it. It does not really matter if it is harsh as long as the ideas to improve are good and above all workable. A little niceness goes a long way if it is used to get someone to see something they would not otherwise see. Or be willing to do something they would otherwise avoid doing. But some people are not good at that.

Personally I am not above giving tips on a better way something can be done - provided that I actually am experienced enough in the area to actually have a better idea. Criticism at it's core should be ruthless. If you care about a fellow artist enough to see them improve it will be and should be. Whether or not it is packaged in a nice way or not is secondary. If the criticism given results in a better way to accomplish something and it gets implemented and actually improves the skill and knowledge of the artist then it is good criticism - even in delivered in a harsh way.

Another thing to consider is whether or not the artist actually is at a skill level to be able to actually assimilate certain information. They simply may not be ready or skilled enough to implement criticisms that are over their head. So good criticism would ideally be at their next level of improvement and it should be ruthless in doing so.Thanks, Richard. I appreciate your take on this, but you and I...and most everyone here...know that, at times, Stooch steps over the line of constructive criticism...his ego gets the best of him and he takes a personal shot at some one, in order to bring them beneath him and feed his ego all the while.

I've seen WIP's at various sites, and most of the criticisms are as you say, tough or subtle, intended to help...not injure. Stooch sees someone he doesn't like, and tries to injure with insults. From time to time, he might try to be helpful, but you can tell when he's trying to take a personal jab at someone.

Stooch
02-03-2008, 12:49 AM
interesting so now we are upgrading to direct threats. nice. I guess when logic doesnt work out for you, you think you can scare me? lol.

To the casual reader:

I welcome you to look over my critiques in the wip section. These two are talking out of their asses. and the proof is right there for everyone to see.

I think ive helped more than either of these two, again the proof is there for everyone to see.

AbnRanger
02-03-2008, 01:01 AM
interesting so now we are upgrading to direct threats. nice. I guess when logic doesnt work out for you, you think you can scare me? lol.

To the casual reader:

I welcome you to look over my critiques in the wip section. These two are talking out of their asses. and the proof is right there for everyone to see.

I think ive helped more than either of these two, again the proof is there for everyone to see.Who's talking threats? I just am curious as a cat to see if you have a pair, or if you are just one of those cross-dressers from San Fran?

After all, we just want to "Keep it Real," right?

Stooch
02-03-2008, 01:11 AM
like i said ill see you in LA and good luck with your career.

and take some time to examine my wip critiques. i think you really should since you have been so dead wrong this whole time. infact i dont even understand how you can claim what you did in the face of all this evidence.
should have pointed this out pages ago, would have saved myself alot of typing.

agv
02-03-2008, 01:13 AM
Thanks for your post Richard. It's great to hear the experiences of someone who's been through it. Your comments make a lot of sense and they reflect a perspective I've heard from other filmmakers who also got distribution.

My film was shown at several festivals, but there never was a well-developed plan to get distribution. The original objective was to finish the film and get it shown at a few nice fests. While that object was accomplished, it would have been much better to have a solid distribution plan. With all the work that went into the project, it only makes sense (I see now) to plan for distribution from square one.

Which brings me to add the point: it's tough for one person to oversee all aspects of the process as I did. As you pointed out, it's almost a miracle just to get the damn thing done in the first place. Making it took a toll on my life...and it's just a short! So I should have brought someone on board who fancied the promotional and distribution aspects. While I'm glad to have gained insight from my festival research, it would have been prudent to have a left-brainer helping this right-brainer. Fortunately, the life of my film isn't over, and I believe there's still some distribution potential.

So if someone wants to make filmmaking into more than a hobby, I believe they would benefit from your advice.



Having eked out something of value from train wreck of a thread, I think it's time for me to unsubscribe.

Surrealist.
02-03-2008, 01:38 AM
Thanks for your post Richard ...

Which brings me to add the point: it's tough for one person to oversee all aspects of the process as I did. As you pointed out, it's almost a miracle just to get the damn thing done in the first place. Making it took a toll on my life...and it's just a short! So I should have brought someone on board who fancied the promotional and distribution aspects. While I'm glad to have gained insight from my festival research, it would have been prudent to have a left-brainer helping this right-brainer. Fortunately, the life of my film isn't over, and I believe there's still some distribution potential.

So if someone wants to make filmmaking into more than a hobby, I believe they would benefit from your advice.

Having eked out something of value from train wreck of a thread, I think it's time for me to unsubscribe.


Thanks, though I understand that it is hard to conceive of for the first few projects. I think you kind of add more things on with each film until you have more of it to a science. But if you are in a position to think it though from the beginning that is a very good idea indeed. :)

And I agree it is great having someone aboard.

Teamwork is a good thing. :)

AbnRanger
02-03-2008, 03:38 AM
like i said ill see you in LA and good luck with your career.

and take some time to examine my wip critiques. i think you really should since you have been so dead wrong this whole time. infact i dont even understand how you can claim what you did in the face of all this evidence.
should have pointed this out pages ago, would have saved myself alot of typing.Ok...Ok...you got me. Here's some work...new film coming out this summer...supposed to be a blockbuster from all the media buzz:

toby
02-03-2008, 04:36 AM
ahh toby. lets go back in memory lane shall we? you had a thing for me from the first day i stepped into the office. where i extended a hand you always wanted to snap at it. Its funny, you claim that my mac attitude is what upsets you but everyone else at menithings gets along with me jsut fine. even meni, who i get into friendly spats every now and then. the fact is, you will get respect when you give respect. you are the one always bitching behind peoples backs, you think i like hearing that?

the only person that seems to have problems in real life with real people is you. Im friends with everyone at the office. no one has a problem with me. infact im now a special effecst supervisor. so clearly my criticisms arent unreasonable and my mac attitudes arent really the problem here. its you toby. you had it in for me from day one. where i surround myself with friends and have an outgoing personality, you constantly stew at perceived threats and affronts. oh well, i cant expect to get along with everyone and i certainly dont intend to put on a fake smile and pretend to be your friend. its a two way street. you respect me and i respect you.

face it toby, youa re trying to win a populariy battle on the forums where I already won it in real life. and its not really a battle toby. speaking of professionalism, your depressing attitude in real production is a real poison that pulls down the entire production. after you left things took off in a vertical climb. But hey if you want to sit here and join this kicking circus, be my guest. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself.

and its not that i THINK im better than you toby. I dont really have to think, all i have to do is look at results. they kinda speak for themselves.
Oh yea, blah, blah, blah, I'm great, everybody loves me, "I'm an effects supervisor! I'm an effects supervisor!" blah blah blah. You bitched and moaned after Gregg left that you should have that title, even though Gregg did 85% of the work, and you never supervised anyone, did you? You claim that title because there was no one else is left doing LW particles. And it's put quite a chip on your shoulder, hasn't it. Well Mr. "effects supervisor", know how to use Houdini, much less lead a team of Houdini artists and/or Python programmers? No, you're just the last one left when everyone else went on to bigger and better things. So don't insult *real* effects supes with your petty bragging.

And all the other crap about "everyone gets along with me" is also horsesh**, don't bother spewing that, you're a common topic with most of us Terra survivors, and it's not flattering.

"the only person that seems to have problems in real life with real people is you Toby"

"yes it is very telling that you are the only one who has an issue with me, AbnRanger"

"you on the other hand always had a problem with my views on macs, Wonderpup"

Somehow *anyone* who has a problem with you is the *only* one who has a problem with you. Your logic is impeccable. To a moron.

cresshead
02-03-2008, 05:15 AM
office politics rise to the surface again by the looks of it...
group hug?...

get over it...really...life's too short to be so petty about such small, boring things as this...

go make some cool stuff!

Iain
02-03-2008, 05:24 AM
edit - Cresshead beat me to it - edit

I very rarely think this but there should have been some moderator input to point out how selfish and childish this all is.

StereoMike
02-03-2008, 06:10 AM
If this thread heats up even more, the $hitstorm will end in one or more bans. I guess it started in that direction and nobody was able to redirect it fully, it always targets in on it...

Stooch
02-03-2008, 11:18 AM
hey buddy. I am redoing 85% of the ffects in the movie. ive redone 100% of your shots. and from scratch too. there are going to be like 2-3 greg shots left. Seriously after looking at the way you setup scenes and the results you got, you really shouldnt be talking. but hey once the movie comes out you will see exactly how much i did. by myself, in the same timeline you had.

ach time i open up a shot it boggles my mind as to what you were thinking. Yes I am doing ALL the remaining effects for the entire movie by myself. 85% REDOING them. Seriously, if i really wanted to be a dick, i would show the crap that im having to replace. But it really never had to be this way, ive always treated you positively and worked with enthusiasm. you are the one that sat there with a "I dont give a ****" attitude. you had a chip on your shoulder from day one. And yes i do know how to use houdini.

most terra survivors? you mean you and erin? lol (everyone else is still here). I wouldnt want to be flattered by either of you. i dont have a problem with greg (or erin for that matter). But if they are talking behind my back - thanks for letting me know. Im glad you guys are thinking about me though, must have made an impression. No one really misses you though, ill be honest.


Oh yea, blah, blah, blah, I'm great, everybody loves me, "I'm an effects supervisor! I'm an effects supervisor!" blah blah blah. You bitched and moaned after Gregg left that you should have that title, even though Gregg did 85% of the work, and you never supervised anyone, did you? You claim that title because there was no one else is left doing LW particles. And it's put quite a chip on your shoulder, hasn't it. Well Mr. "effects supervisor", know how to use Houdini, much less lead a team of Houdini artists and/or Python programmers? No, you're just the last one left when everyone else went on to bigger and better things. So don't insult *real* effects supes with your petty bragging.

And all the other crap about "everyone gets along with me" is also horsesh**, don't bother spewing that, you're a common topic with most of us Terra survivors, and it's not flattering.

p.s. Im glad that you find my logic impeccable.

"the only person that seems to have problems in real life with real people is you Toby"

"yes it is very telling that you are the only one who has an issue with me, AbnRanger"

"you on the other hand always had a problem with my views on macs, Wonderpup"

Somehow *anyone* who has a problem with you is the *only* one who has a problem with you. Your logic is impeccable. To a moron.

cresshead
02-03-2008, 11:40 AM
ideal game for some of you!:D

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Hkx0wVEHL._SS400_.jpg

Stooch
02-03-2008, 11:42 AM
lol. we played frisbee in the local park until we got kicked out for hitting too many visitors. (accidentaly)

DiedonD
02-04-2008, 12:54 AM
Stooch I think at your direct attitude approach, all there is missing there, is a direct positive approach aswell. So your a direct person. Thats fine. I too am like that, and just say out laud what I feel. It just cutts the you know what, and gets to the point directly. But, theres always something good in someone elses work is there? I mean, do you believe that most artwork here is completely bad 100% ? Thus you emphasize that alone?

What Im saying is, if you mention the good parts and then unleash hell, it would be far more acceptable to all of us, rather then just the nasty parts of it, that you put all the lighting and cameras on. JUst say something good, and then the whole bad each time. It wont hurt will it?

I dont think this community asks too much from you.

Stooch
02-04-2008, 10:48 AM
hey instead of taking abnrangers accusations as fact. why dont you take the time and actually look at my critiques in the wip section, im really tempted to tear into you right now but ill give you the benefit of the doubt.

you can see that im perfectly fair. and honestly its about time this thread ended.


Stooch I think at your direct attitude approach, all there is missing there, is a direct positive approach aswell. So your a direct person. Thats fine. I too am like that, and just say out laud what I feel. It just cutts the you know what, and gets to the point directly. But, theres always something good in someone elses work is there? I mean, do you believe that most artwork here is completely bad 100% ? Thus you emphasize that alone?

What Im saying is, if you mention the good parts and then unleash hell, it would be far more acceptable to all of us, rather then just the nasty parts of it, that you put all the lighting and cameras on. JUst say something good, and then the whole bad each time. It wont hurt will it?

I dont think this community asks too much from you.

Steamthrower
02-04-2008, 11:10 AM
honestly its about time this thread ended.
It's gone nowhere fast. Going downhill in reverse.

Serious Lightwave artists for independent films have turned into Psychotic Lightwave Fanatics applying the Julienne tool to their enemies....

cresshead
02-04-2008, 11:31 AM
this would have been much better managed by taking their gripes PRIVATE messaging rather than a public slanging match right in the centre of a enquiring thread on independant film making.

i' don't care who you are if your right or lying out of your posterior you shoudl at least appologise for killing the thread posted by the person at the start..

what's he to think now?
''generally lightwave artists are toddlers screaming for their ball back?''

i'm utterly ashamed of you...you should know better.
and your doing a great job making ALL lightwave users look bad here too.

Stooch
02-04-2008, 11:46 AM
sorry for having legitimate concerns that resulted in this thread being killed. i guess you will never appreciate it until someone rips you off. its true, i should have sent you a pm to find out more. but hey when making a post in forums you are kind of inviting open conversation.

the section in the JOBs area however is specifically made to avoid this in the first place.

cresshead
02-04-2008, 11:50 AM
if you have a gripe with someone newtek are quite tolerent of threads, so go and make your own 'NEW' thread on that specific subject...you can even link to it from within the thread where it started and use the darn OFF TOPIC icon, that's what the icon is for so we can ignore rubbish....don't ruin other people's threads.



it's just bad form:thumbsdow:offtopic:

and thanks for the 'sorry' , good to see people can see the damage done in the heat of the moment.

Steamthrower
02-04-2008, 12:00 PM
The fact that Stooch actually did say "sorry" points something out to me pretty positively.

Surrealist.
02-04-2008, 02:25 PM
Good. Now with that all agreed. Take a look at this for future reference:


The NewTek Discussion Forums are a private venue provided as a service to NewTek customers at NewTek's discretion. As such, the NewTek Discussion Forums are not a free speech zone, they are for professional and civil discourse regarding NewTek products by NewTek users.

The following items are not considered professional or civil discourse allowed on these forums:

* Off-topic and controversial subjects such as Religion and Politics
* Comments of an "off color" nature inappropriate for viewing by minors
* Non-constructive criticism of a malicious nature
* Personal attacks against NewTek customers or employees and their family members
* Promotional messages and material for competing products

Those who are unable to keep their posts on topic, unable to maintain responsible civil conversation with others or who have no purpose on the NewTek forums other than to promote competing products will have their accounts removed.

Moderation decisions are not subject to public discussion. If you have comments, send an email or private message to the moderators.

I am going to PM the moderator and see if he will come in here and clean this all up and perhaps leave the on topic stuff.

If anyone else cares to join in on that effort - to PM the moderator - that would be great.

This is a great place to play and I am all for open discussion but clearly this got way out of hand.

rakker16mm
02-04-2008, 02:37 PM
This thread was like sitting in a theatre watching bad film. You always know what's coming next and there is nothing you can do about it. :foreheads

In many ways this thing started long ago before Logan3000 even posted this thread. It started years and years ago when people started taking advantage of other people's talents and abilities and not compensating them properly. :deal:

Flash to the present and here comes a guy with a dream. He's thinking big. There are stars in his eyes. He's waited years for for the right project to come along and now that is has, he needs to find some kindred spirits. He's heard of a village called Newtekopia where the people are all happy and talented CG artists. He hopes the people there will be as exited about his project as he is. :goodluck:

Little does he know that he is stepping into a mine field. He has no idea that his post fits a profile, BUT fits a profile it most certainly DO! Hmmmmmmmmmm.......

Now bring bring on the natives and angry villagers with pitchforks and other farm implements. They are the ones who got ripped off by a whole series of carpet baggers, land grabbers and robber barons. The chief of the tribe grabs a pitchfork from one of the near by villagers and approaches the stranger. Not to kill him mind you. No he's just going to give him a few customary greeting pokes. Cautiously he jabs the pitch fork in the general direction of the stranger's genitals.... as is the custom of the village.

Chief: Unh! Uh! Grumble Grumble! :twak:

Unfortunately for our stranger he knows nothing of these local customs. It's no surprise then that he tries to avoid the tines of the pitchfork and loudly protests this assault on the integrity of his manhood.

Stranger: HeY HEY!!! That hurts! Ooh OW! Hey I need those things. Come on...

Sadly for our stranger this is the worst possible thing he could have done. Now the elders speak amongst themselves...... In less than a moment things go from bad to worse as the villagers surround the stranger.

Stranger: I'm sorry. Really I am. I was just trying to make a film. Help! Help! SOME BODY SAVE ME!!!

POV: Villagers approaching.... Spears converging.

Villagers: Unga unga, Unga unga, Unga unga, :devil: :devil: :devil:

Just when all seems lost for our intrepid stranger a squabble breaks out amongst the villagers. :argue: It seems there is some question over whether or not to use Bay Leaves. The squabble soon turns into an all out duel between two of the village elders :2guns: :hammer: with the rest of the villagers standing on the sidelines making wagers on the outcome. Our stranger seizes the moment and escapes into the forest unnoticed.... Leaving only one question... Will there be a sequel?

Unga unga,

Stooch
02-04-2008, 02:45 PM
Lol i like you lighthearted take on it.

http://www.areyougoingtoeatthat.com/images/Spock.jpg

agv
02-04-2008, 04:39 PM
This is the first time I've seen the entire progression of a thread storyboarded using the little smiley face things. Nice job!:dance:

rakker16mm
02-04-2008, 06:47 PM
This is the first time I've seen the entire progression of a thread storyboarded using the little smiley face things. Nice job!:dance:

Thank you. :thumbsup: Too bad we are limited to only 10 smilies per post :grumpy:

I was actually thinking of using smilies the next time I am asked to do some storyboarding, but I'm not sure I could get away with it. :D

DiedonD
02-05-2008, 04:06 AM
im really tempted to tear into you right now but ill give you the benefit of the doubt.
.

Tear on me?! On me?! I think you wouldnt be capable to tear even a newly born fly. You know why your so hot aired big shot. Cause your off reach, thats it, and thats all.

Exactly like Oddity, to you this is just a game of words isnt it? Well I offered something that we could all agree upon, you turn back to it and threaten me?! Thats why your so bold headed. All the hair has fallen long ago in this inner rage you have, and you think you can express it openly here, cause noone in real world would allow it isnt it? Now, wus$ies like you can only make the talk such as that!! You think youre threatening with words like tearings and people will fall down!! Your so low, you disgust me.

If we could meet, Id have a person you trust tie any hand of mine that you prefer, and wed go about the tear in the real way wus$!!

Wish you were here...

(And now its gonna get hot people, you can start counting until the thread closes)

Iain
02-05-2008, 04:12 AM
Someone please put an end to this. It's embarassing.