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View Full Version : Heath Ledger dead. Another tale of wasted youth...



hrgiger
01-22-2008, 06:39 PM
When I came home from work today my girlfriend asked me if I had heard that Heath Ledger was found dead in a NY apartment. Know what my first concern was? Did he finish filming The Dark Knight? I suppose that's natural, I of course didn't know the guy personally but Batman is a friend of mine from my childhood. Right?
Accidental overdose? Suicide? Who knows. It always amazes me that people who seem to have the world by the balls tend to find some way to be unhappy enough about life to yank the cord on it. I've liked him in the few roles I've seen him in and from the looks of the adverts, he looks amazing in the new Batman film as the Joker so I if I commonly wore a hat, I'd take it off for the moment and pay my respects.
See ya Heath.

Steamthrower
01-22-2008, 06:53 PM
Funny. However totally non-empathetic it may seem, that was my first thought as well: did he finish filming?

It's hard for me to have sympathy for someone who commits suicide (which is most likely the case).

Everybody out there: don't kill yourself. It'll always get better. Don't waste your life.

faulknermano
01-22-2008, 09:02 PM
It's hard for me to have sympathy for someone who commits suicide (which is most likely the case).

too soon to say, dont you think? there was an interview with him, i read, that mentioned him saying that he didnt get much sleep. so an overdose of sleeping pills is probably more of rational conjecture. accidents do happen. a conjecture nonetheless. either way, it's sad. we're all the same flesh and blood and we have it all coming. and when it's our turn, it's just as sad especially for those around us.

colkai
01-23-2008, 02:34 AM
I'm stunned, totally.
Heard it on the news on the way to work today, what a complete waste of talent and life.

He seemed so level headed so it's hard to imagine it was a 'hard drugs' O/D.

Sad day. :(

kyuzo
01-23-2008, 02:42 AM
I agree with faulknermano, I think it's too early to say whether it was suicide or not, although listening to the reports I think it sounds more like an accidental overdose, or even a 'cry for help' thinking he'd be found before the medication kicked in.
And like hrgiger and inigo I must admit one of the first things that went through my mind was how this will affect The Dark Knight. I feel a little guilty for that, but I never knew him as a person, he'd only come to my attention because he's pulled off what looks like a fantastic job in that film.
To me, Heath seemed to be shaping up to be another Kevin Spacey, in that he was a real chameleon actor. What a waste. Especially when there are other 'celebrities' who are constantly off their faces on drugs, who frankly are talentless wasters who wouldn't be missed by many at all.
This is just another reminder that life ain't fair. So make the most of what you've got.

T-Light
01-23-2008, 02:54 AM
Sad.

He had a massage booked apparently, It was the masseuse who raised the alarm, doesn't seem on the face of it to be deliberate.

He was a good actor, good stage presence, very likable.

What a shame.

DogBoy
01-23-2008, 03:24 AM
Sad.

He had a massage booked apparently, It was the masseuse who raised the alarm, doesn't seem on the face of it to be deliberate.

The news said it was his house keeper who raised the alarm. Chinese whispers already? Housekeeper/Masseuse, who knows. Whatever, it is a sad waste of a great talent.

Matt
01-23-2008, 06:29 AM
Could just be he took the wrong dosage and had a reaction? Bruce Lee died the same way with a pain killer / headache tablet apparently.

Steamthrower
01-23-2008, 06:35 AM
too soon to say, dont you think?

Probably so, yes, but you'd think people would be as careful with sleeping pills as they would be with a gun...and after all he's a young Hollywood star, who seem to like to die early deaths. Another guy died last week or something as well.

T-Light
01-23-2008, 06:38 AM
DogBoy -

The news said it was his house keeper who raised the alarm. Chinese whispers already?
Could be?
Couldn't see News 24 this morning, bedroom digibox has a screw loose:screwy: Might have seen it on Sky?

Mind you, you know what these 24 hour news channels are like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foLwOPZ6Hzs

AHA BREAKING NEWS...
He was due a massage, the masseuse turned up, the house keeper went to tell him.

More news as we get it, right here, on Newtek 24.

Iain
01-23-2008, 07:31 AM
I always think the same thing; why are talented, successful people so prone to addiction whether it's drugs/drink/general dangerous excess?

Then you look at people like Travolta and Cruise who have obviously been under the same bizarre pressures and stresses but turned to obscure religion instead of self destructive behaviour.

These people must be in such a weird place that they need some way of finding relief from it.

Steamthrower
01-23-2008, 07:57 AM
Think about it. How many people in your daily life that you have known, have died from violent or non-natural causes? Not that many.

When I think of people I have known that have died, I'd say that 95% of them have died of sickness (cancer, old age, etc.) But violent or accidental deaths? Well, I can think of three. Two car wrecks and a drowning.

When you hear of all these celebrity happenings, there's no avoiding the fact that they live on the edge...

*Pete*
01-23-2008, 07:59 AM
I always think the same thing; why are talented, successful people so prone to addiction whether it's drugs/drink/general dangerous excess?

I would believe that it takes a certain type of personality to become talented or succesfull....they are people who give 100% and have far more life in them than normal mortals, cant sit still for a second...always chasing perfection or new challenges.

i think that those people are more sensitive than others..more emotionally fragile, and this is what pushes them to become so talented or succesfull,
as a doubled edged sword it can in the end hurt themselfs..after the success is done, recognition is achieved and as someone said "they have the world by the balls"...the goals they had will dissapear and so will the life slowly loose its value...

not jumping into any conclusion over that this guy killed himself..just a general observation of the rich and the famous.

Steamthrower
01-23-2008, 08:04 AM
Think of Judy Garland or Marilyn Monroe...about as rich and famous and powerful as anyone could want. Yet they overexceeded. There wasn't nothin' left.

evolross
01-23-2008, 08:09 AM
It always amazes me that people who seem to have the world by the balls tend to find some way to be unhappy enough about life to yank the cord on it.
Well his relationship with Michelle Williams recently ended. He was engaged to be married to her and she also was the mother of his only child. This could have weighed on him.

And if he did suffer from depression, it doesn't matter how much money, fame, family, or other gifts have been bestowed on one's life. Depression just creates an inner source of pain. The positives in one's life can be rendered meaningless. That's the nature of the disease. I do agree though that it's cowardly to succumb to depression by taking one's life. People who suffer from depression should get themselves treated, if for nothing else, the benefit of those who love them. (BTW: Not saying that Heath Ledger took his own life.)

Sarford
01-23-2008, 08:19 AM
it's cowardly to succumb to depression by taking one's life.

That is quite a bold statement.
I think people who take their own life don't do it for fun or to cower away. To these people this is the only option left. I think that is very sad, and hope that everything will be done to get those people back on track. But to call them cowards... a little bit more ampathy would be apropriate in such situation me thinks

Steamthrower
01-23-2008, 08:34 AM
Well...I'd have to disagree with that.

As one guy said, "killing yourself is murdering the world". Of course there are semantics behind that phrase, but it's really true. By killing yourself you're refusing to accept what's happening to you. And so you run from it.

Safe Harbor
01-23-2008, 09:21 AM
Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

I too am amazed at how maladjusted so many stars appear to be - but we also only hear about the spectacular failures. There are MANY more stars who lead normal, healthy lives - boring for the media, so we don't get exposed to them.

Sarford
01-23-2008, 09:25 AM
How can you judge someone you don't even know, whose situation you don't know and how and why he/she came to this drastic conclusion you don't know?
In my eyes that is quite a harsh and unforgiving attitude.

Anyhow, to each his own. You are ofcourse alowed disagree with me inigo07 ;)

Steamthrower
01-23-2008, 09:36 AM
I don't quite see it that way, though. I can sympathise but not empathise here...obviously their life was less than optimum, and was miserable enough to make them want to die. I can sympathise with that. But like Tiffani said above, it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Committing suicide isn't looking at the big picture. Sure your dog might have died, your wife have run away, and your pickup stolen, but that doesn't mean that it won't get better a couple months/years from now.

CMT
01-23-2008, 10:00 AM
From what I've read, he's had problems sleeping while he was filming Batman as the Joker, which was why he was taking the sleeping pills. I also read that he stated to someone that after an hour, the pills seemed to wear off. My guess is that he kept upping the dosage until his heart/body couldn't take it.

Sad cuz he left a little one behind. Suicide just doesn't fit the situation or the facts.

mrpapabeis
01-23-2008, 12:59 PM
And there is of course mental illness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_depression

It's not just something you can "will" away. It can be a chemical imbalance that is out of a persons control.

GP

Steamthrower
01-23-2008, 01:23 PM
Then in that case the person would need to take steps to resolve that.

I've always held that insanity is no excuse for crime. An insane murderer is still a murderer.

parm
01-23-2008, 02:51 PM
Then in that case the person would need to take steps to resolve that.

I've always held that insanity is no excuse for crime. An insane murderer is still a murderer.

You mis-understand the nature of disease.

You'd hardly accuse someone who succumbed to bone cancer. Of being weak willed or blameworthy for their own demise. Would you?

It's no different with mental illnesses. These diseases, cause deficits of the brain. That can lead to seriously impaired cognitive function.

Steamthrower
01-23-2008, 03:02 PM
Yes, to some extent. I know I'm taking an odd stance here, but let me explain it a bit. Hopefully I won't come across like Prospector in the global warming thread...

I understand the nature of disease. I can understand that Parkinson's, or Alzheimer's, or mental retardation, or a traumatic head injury can leave people severely disabled. I'm very sensitive towards that type of mental illness because it's very real and very sad.

Yet there's another kind of "mental illness" that needs quotation marks around it. The term psychotic is overused a lot but it gets my point. When you have a woman murder her boyfriend, but then she's pardoned because of "insanity", is that insanity? No. Perhaps it's derangement, but derangement is just what comes from totally bloated and uncontrolled anger.

If a retarded person accidentally finds their medicine and takes it by themselves and dies, that's not suicide. That's an accident. It's an accident as well if a retarded person finds a gun and accidentally shoots themselves. But if someone who is "insane" writes a suicide note and then shoots themselves: that is no accident. They didn't kill themselves because they were crazy. They killed themselves and meant to.

Basically my point is, if someone kills someone while meaning to, that's murder. Whether insane or sane. And if someone "insane" murders someone, they've got to suffer just the same consequences as someone sane.

Sorry if I rambled on and on too much...:D

theo
01-23-2008, 03:20 PM
Extreme despondency blurs awareness.

It removes healthy circumspection from the mind which is why those who become imprisoned in the depths of depression are not capable of seeing their issues as temporary.

The suicidal person kills himself to escape from torment. Since they are now dead for rather sad reasons it hardly seems useful to consider them a murderer.

Anyways, I liked Heath Ledger. A whole lot actually. I am quite saddened by this.

Steamthrower
01-23-2008, 03:26 PM
I first saw him in Knight's Tale...stupid movie but somewhat funny.

I'm not considering suicides as murderers, as a whole. I was using the murderer example to express my opinion that "insane" murderers are still murderers. Suicides are a bit different, but not very...

theo
01-23-2008, 03:31 PM
I first saw him in Knight's Tale...stupid movie but somewhat funny.

I'm not considering suicides as murderers, as a whole. I was using the murderer example to express my opinion that "insane" murderers are still murderers. Suicides are a bit different, but not very...

Make up your mind inigo.

hrgiger
01-23-2008, 03:34 PM
I don't think it's cowardly at all to commit suicide. I don't think making the decision to not live with a pain, physical or mental, has a thing to do with cowardice. Rubbing sandpaper on your eyeballs causes pain, so personally, I choose not to do it. Am I cowardly because I don't want to rub sandpaper on my eyeballs?

Perhaps rather, it should be said that those who don't commit suicide might be cowardly when it comes to their own mortality. Personally I think it's the easy way out to keep on living a life that might not consider worth living.

Of course, some people also have the wacky notion that life is a gift and precious, no matter how crappy it can really be for some people. Some people sure are deluding themselves... It's just my notion that life is a random event and I like the idea that I can choose when I exit stage left. I also leave other people that choice and don't get on my high horse by calling them cowardly.

T-Light
01-23-2008, 03:40 PM
They've just revealed that the autopsy didn't reveal anything 'special'. They also said there was a rolled up $20 bill by the body.

Sad.

Steamthrower
01-23-2008, 03:44 PM
Perhaps rather, it should be said that those who don't commit suicide might be cowardly when it comes to their own mortality. Personally I think it's the easy way out to keep on living a life that might not be worth living.

Of course, some people also have the wacky notion that life is a gift and precious, no matter how crappy it can really be for some people. Some people sure are deluding themselves...

Good grief. That's a little fatalistic, ain't it?

gerry_g
01-23-2008, 03:58 PM
Given the number of people with cats for avatars you'd think the principle of nine lives would be well and truly understood, so what's one less ??

hrgiger
01-23-2008, 05:22 PM
Good grief. That's a little fatalistic, ain't it?

Hm, how do you mean? Fatalism is kind of the idea that everything has a pre-determined end. I don't believe that at all. As I said in my post, I believe that all of life is random and that we should all have the free will to say when it's time to go or not. Now if you mean that death is that pre-determined end, then absolutely. On that, yes, I'm a bit fatalistic.

It just burns me inside when others decide that you're a coward if you commit suicide or you just can't do that because life is a gift. In the grand scheme of things, we (humans) are pretty much insignificant so the whole idea of life being a gift thing, er, not so mcuh. Or I'd like to quote a few of Earths better philosphers when they said "All we are, is dust in the wind dude." (Bill S Preston Esquire and Ted "Theodore" Logan aka Bill and Ted)
That is not to say I don't enjoy life because I certainly do (more often then not). I don't see anything wrong with that.

Tom Wood
01-23-2008, 05:54 PM
hrgiger - Richard Dawkins is best known for his atheism, but he includes in his lectures the point that each individual is incredibly lucky to even exist given that the chance of our individual existence is so small. Billions (and billions :D ) of possible combinations of chromosomes in the mix, and they came together to make...you? Not to mention the 3 billion years of development (okay 15 if we go all the way back) toward said chromosomes. You're lucky to be alive at all! :D

Steamthrower
01-23-2008, 05:55 PM
I meant fatalistic in that you'd live your life thinking, predetermining. "if it ever gets bad I'll just shoot myself".

That's fatalistic. You're already determining that you'll die if things don't go your way.

Suicide is cowardice, by definition, and I would hazard a guess that others would support me in this statement. Anyone? Have a better way of putting it for me?

Tom Wood
01-23-2008, 06:21 PM
I don't know if it's always cowardice, but in many cases it does seem to be a lack of appreciation, and will, to step up to the plate.

crashnburn
01-23-2008, 06:25 PM
Firstly, suicide isn't cowardice, I wouldn't have the guts to kill myself, so anyone who kills themself is not ina frame of mind that we who aren't in that situation can judge. It may be selfish, but not cowardice.

The thing that people forget is that actors are mere mortals just like us. They have our problems (family etc, eg split from Michelle Williams), our fears etc. I know this because my girlfriend is an actress here in the UK. And I can guarantee that she has more fears, more stresses etc than most woman I have known. You will tend to find that many actors and actresses have had problems in their lives and they take up acting to try to overcome the problem. Some succeed, some don't.

Anyone who knows actors will also know that there is a massive come down when a show is over, the buzz has gone. As previous posts have mentioned, Heath put everything into his role as The Joker. But hey may have had a big come down from the buzz once filming was over for him.

To scare the memory of someone who can't be here to argue their reasons, frame of mind or what ever is wrong. At the end of the day, he was a great actor, he's a major loss to the industry and our screens and he should be remembered for what he was. A great actor who entertained us.

mrpapabeis
01-23-2008, 07:05 PM
I don't know if it's always cowardice, but in many cases it does seem to be a lack of appreciation, and will, to step up to the plate.


I'm sorry....

"...in many cases it does seem..."

this is wrong. I appreciate the "getting up by your bootstraps" sentiment. But it's not that simple.

And on that note I'm going to stop now.


GP

hrgiger
01-23-2008, 07:19 PM
I meant fatalistic in that you'd live your life thinking, predetermining. "if it ever gets bad I'll just shoot myself".

That's fatalistic. You're already determining that you'll die if things don't go your way.

Suicide is cowardice, by definition, and I would hazard a guess that others would support me in this statement. Anyone? Have a better way of putting it for me?

I never alluded to the thought that I would kill myself if things don't go my way. Things don't go my way alll the time, but it's not normally a suicidal event. Thank goodness, because I would have killed myself about 1000 times over if I did it everytime something hadn't gone my way in life. For instance, the other day, I bought a $1 scratch off lottery ticket and I didn't win. I didn't go home and gargle drano over it. Now you can bet if I have cancer that's eating, say, I don't know, my stomach or pancreas...then we might have a suicidal event on our hands. No need to suffer pointlessly just to appease those others who think killing oneself is the greatest sin of all. People tend to be very selfish of other peoples lives I think.

what I merely stated was that I like the idea that I have some control over my life. And death. Of course, I could get hit by a bus tomorrow and pretty much shatter that illusion of control. But I'm talking about making decisions when they are available to you.

No, suicide is not cowardice by definition. How do you figure? As far as I am aware, suicide is the taking of ones own life. Some people and life just don't get along. They choose death sometimes because life is simply not enjoyable. They're not cowards, they for whatever reason have just lost the ability to find joy in any part of their life. But I suppose you'll just suggest that there is joy to be found everywhere and life is full of giggles and rainbows if you just look hard enough. And I won't argue with such a thoughtless and blanket assertion such as that.

crashnburn
01-23-2008, 07:44 PM
Nicely put.

Steamthrower
01-23-2008, 08:09 PM
There's not joy to be found everywhere, true.

Not everyone will be happy in life, true.

If someone else decides to kill themself, fine with me, as long as it doesn't affect me. But suicide can be selfish in ways, because it can seriously hurt others, you've got to admit that.

Anyone with independents who commits suicide might solve their own problem, but they've created misery for their friends and relatives. That would make anyone with ungrown children, wives, husbands, older parents, etc., unable to commit suicide with a clean conscience.

alanestrada
01-23-2008, 09:18 PM
Dark Knight was wrapped and on post production, he was currently filming with Terry Gilliam, the unluckiest director on earth.

mrpapabeis
01-23-2008, 09:22 PM
Anyone with independents who commits suicide might solve their own problem, but they've created misery for their friends and relatives. That would make anyone with ungrown children, wives, husbands, older parents, etc., unable to commit suicide with a clean conscience.

"...fine with me, as long as it doesn't affect me."

- And if it does? Then what?

"Unable to commit suicide with a clean conscience."

- There is not always rational thought behind the act.



This is a good place to start one's suicide education as it were:

http://www.suicide.org/index.html


And here is some documentation of very brave men losing it:

http://www.lariaminfo.org/pdfs/UPI/UPI20040511GreenBerets_strange_suicide.pdf

The above link has some obvious bias in it. But the facts remain.


GP

CMT
01-23-2008, 09:44 PM
Hmmm. I would say that anyone who toughs it out when their life seems not worth living is very brave. Those in other less developed countries who fight for survival every day don't take the easy way out. I call that bravery. On the flip side, you have those who take their own life to avoid facing their problems head on. It may not be total cowardice, but it's definitely not an admirable thing to do in my view,...... unless you're a defeated or shamed samurai. Then it's all good......

*Pete*
01-23-2008, 10:00 PM
CMT...you reminded me off something.

The funny fact is that suicide is far more often happening in wealthy nations where we have a good, unproblematic life........while poor nations, with poor people fighting for daily survival or to improve living conditions doesnt suffer from suicides.

i think there are many factors that can make people kill themself, the easier life you have the weaker the survival instinct.
its almost like when people go to the gym, or work hard physical jobs, get strong muscles that help them to do the daily tasks, while people who sit in the offices at daytimes and then watch tv in the evenings get bodies that are weak.

suicide is a result of lost hope...giving up the thought of anything improving, when you have it all, what can improve?
when you have nothing at all, it cant get much worse and every improvement, big or small is highly valued.

as for suicide being cowardice, maybe not...but it is for sure a sign of weakness, unless you have very special reasons for doing so.

CMT
01-23-2008, 11:14 PM
Well put, Pete. And I totally agree with you.

hrgiger
01-23-2008, 11:19 PM
what makes someone so brave for toughing it out and staying alive? All you have to do is eat some food every once in a while and drink some fluids somewhat regularly. People don't off themselves because they're afraid of something. People kill themselves because they don't think things will ever get any better for them. And for those who are successful....I'm sure whatever was going on in their head outweighed any fear they might have had.
And a lot of people DON"T do it because they're afraid. Afraid of what God is going to think of them. Or what their family will think of them. Or afraid of the pain. Afraid of going to hell. In the case of the underdeveloped nations where people fight to stay alive as CMT mentions...Well, all I can say is that religion tends to be much more integrated into such societies and I would venture that those people are probably more afraid of retribution from God more then they are afraid of any suffering that might be happening to them on Earth.
I just find it interesting that people are so quick to label people as cowards, especially when they aren't even trying to understand what those who are suffering might be going through.

colkai
01-24-2008, 02:23 AM
Then in that case the person would need to take steps to resolve that.

Ahh spoken by someone with no understanding of the problem whatsoever.

My wife suffers from clinical depression, an illness / health problem no different than her compressed spine, but everyone rolls out the ole cliches "pull yourself together", "Things can only get better", "just get medication".

This attitude is the very reason people sweep such illness under the "social carpet". If it was a simple as "get a grip", "deal with it", "take steps to resolve it".
Tell me, could you take steps to resolve the loss of a limb, or being paralysed from the neck down. Why you say, don't be stupid of course you cannot.

Well, this is NO different, regardless of peoples blase attitude to it.

Until you have suffered from, or lived with a suffer of mental illness, you have ZERO idea of what it is REALLY like and the problems it brings.

It makes me furious that such a disdainful attitude abounds.
How callous it would seem if you lost your whole family and someone said, "oh get over it, things are bound to improve", "just deal with it", "go and find a new wife".

Well to a sufferer of mental illness, they live "on the edge" like that the whoel time. Medication? Have you seen the effects of it? I have, a lot of the time, it can be worse than the illness and brings with it real dangers in side effects of heart problems, blood pressure, diabeties, stroke. The list is scary and long.

So sorry if I'm ranting, but you really should know what you're on about before making such gross assumptions. :thumbsdow

Iain
01-24-2008, 03:03 AM
So sorry if I'm ranting, but you really should know what you're on about before making such gross assumptions. :thumbsdow

I agree. People with no first hand experience of severe depression sufferers have no idea how different and bleak the world seems to these people. They can be so ashamed of the way they are feeling, getting help is the last thing they want to do.

It's easy to dismiss something you don't understand much in the way alcoholics are written off as 'wasters'.

Once again a discussion here is going off in ridiculous directions.

Steamthrower
01-24-2008, 06:28 AM
"...fine with me, as long as it doesn't affect me."

- And if it does? Then what?
What I meant by that is, suicide shouldn't affect other people; then it becomes more than just self-destructive, but destructive to others.


I agree. People with no first hand experience of severe depression sufferers have no idea how different and bleak the world seems to these people.
Thing is, I do have first hand experience. I'm not a complete sucker. And I know that the way to resolve depression is not suicide.

Once again a discussion here is going off in ridiculous directions.
I agree.

Qexit
01-24-2008, 06:37 AM
Ahh spoken by someone with no understanding of the problem whatsoever.Agreed


Until you have suffered from, or lived with a suffer of mental illness, you have ZERO idea of what it is REALLY like and the problems it brings.Unfortunately, I have first hand experience of both aspects of this situation.


Well to a sufferer of mental illness, they live "on the edge" like that the whoel time. Medication? Have you seen the effects of it? I have, a lot of the time, it can be worse than the illness and brings with it real dangers in side effects of heart problems, blood pressure, diabeties, stroke. The list is scary and long.All too true. The various medications treat the symptoms and never cure the problem. The side effects can be as bad if not worse than the actual illness. Plus, the effects of coming off the medication (an essential inevitability as the drugs cannot be taken continuously for extended periods without having serious detrimental effects on the health of the person taking them) can be devastating even when done gradually.


So sorry if I'm ranting, but you really should know what you're on about before making such gross assumptions. :thumbsdowYou weren't ranting Colin, just stating a few home truths that a surprisingly large number of people are unaware of.

DiedonD
01-24-2008, 07:32 AM
Now there are alot of reasons why someone goes off the edge.

Then Psychology tries to pile them all up to a majorly accepted and understandable cathegories, which is somewhat hard, but yet they manage.

But a wise proffessor of Psychodynamics once told me that people with suicidal tensions, either do it for manipulative purposes, or so as the one or the ones that knew him would suffer after his death.

Steamthrower
01-24-2008, 07:40 AM
But a wise proffessor of Psychodynamics once told me that people with suicidal tensions, either do it for manipulative purposes, or so as the one or the ones that knew him would suffer after his death.
However gruesome it is to be relating experiences like this, Diedond, that's exactly true. I had an acquaintance whose uncle shot himself. Thing is, before he did it he called his ex-wife and said he had a present for her, and for her to come over.

I mean, what a present. What worse could you do to make someone suffer?

Medi8or
01-24-2008, 07:45 AM
There are nice people and there are as5holes. I don't think there is a rule that says just one of the types can be suicidal...

Phil
01-24-2008, 07:51 AM
What possible useful purpose can this discussion serve? Badmouthing people who have, for whatever reason, felt the need to take this kind of action is unwarranted, unhelpful and distasteful.

I wish there was a way to report a thread for locking.

greeb1957
01-24-2008, 07:57 AM
Look Phil, sometimes people just need to say things, whatever it is, even if u see it as mean or crule, a person should be able to say what they want. I think we all are saddend for Heath's death, one life lost is one to many.

greeb1957
01-24-2008, 08:05 AM
Live ur life to the fullest, step out of ur comfort zone once in a while, "if all your ducks are lined up i a row youl have nothing to worry about when its ur time to go.

greeb1957
01-24-2008, 08:14 AM
i could

Steamthrower
01-24-2008, 08:18 AM
This thread probably is destined for lockdown...:D

Sooner than later I'd say.

Do we all agree at least that a suicide is tragic? Doesn't everyone rather mourn when someone dies? And shouldn't it be that way? After all someone's gone who used to be with us?

greeb1957
01-24-2008, 08:20 AM
exactly any life lost is tragic.

Phil
01-24-2008, 08:23 AM
Eh, Phil, that wasn't directed at you. That just struck me after the fact :)

Funny thing is, I am a Dr. Just not a medical one :)

colkai
01-24-2008, 08:25 AM
To skitter off direction, yep.
Any death, when all is said and done, is hard on those left behind, after all, it's hardly likely to be a problem for the person who has gone before / passed on etc.
Doesn't matter if it's suicide or not, it's tragic to someone, unless their death comes as a relief from very visible pain and suffering.

Morbid as it may sound, death is on my mind these days, I woke up realising there is less in front of me than is behind, a sobering thought.

To haul things back on topic for this off topic thread, I suspect his death was a tragic accident. Just reading that his housekeeper checked on him on 45 minutes or so prior and he was fast asleep and snoring away.

CMT
01-24-2008, 08:29 AM
what makes someone so brave for toughing it out and staying alive? All you have to do is eat some food every once in a while and drink some fluids somewhat regularly. People don't off themselves because they're afraid of something. People kill themselves because they don't think things will ever get any better for them. And for those who are successful....I'm sure whatever was going on in their head outweighed any fear they might have had.
And a lot of people DON"T do it because they're afraid. Afraid of what God is going to think of them. Or what their family will think of them. Or afraid of the pain. Afraid of going to hell. In the case of the underdeveloped nations where people fight to stay alive as CMT mentions...Well, all I can say is that religion tends to be much more integrated into such societies and I would venture that those people are probably more afraid of retribution from God more then they are afraid of any suffering that might be happening to them on Earth.
I just find it interesting that people are so quick to label people as cowards, especially when they aren't even trying to understand what those who are suffering might be going through.

Don't you think that when someone has suicidal tendencies, that they are afraid of living through the hell they perceive they are living? Afraid of that more than death?

Yes, some people have such severe depression that their desire to end their life is strong enough to outweigh rational thought. And it's tragic that those who reach that point are sometimes successful in doing so.

There's a debate about whether or not it's a disease of the brain. If it is, then there's nothing someone can do to control it other than seeking medical treatment. If not, then therapy of some kind is needed.

Bottom line is that these people need help. On one side, I can empathize with those who feel like they have crossed the line where the only thing they can do is take their own life. But at the same time I can't help feel a slight bit angry that they had much to life for and took the easy way out.

As far as people being afraid to take their life because they'd go to hell or for religious reasons, sure, some may be swayed a bit by that, but then, these people don't think rationally like those of us who don't have that kind of severe depression. They already perceive that they are in a living hell.

BTW, This is slightly relevant.... (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9F00EFD91F3CE433A25755C2A9639C94 6197D6CF)



What possible useful purpose can this discussion serve?

There's always something to learn from these discussions.....

Titus
01-24-2008, 08:42 AM
What possible useful purpose can this discussion serve?

I think the principal reason is to take a moment off from other problems like the next recesion coming. Just an idea :hijack:.

Steamthrower
01-24-2008, 08:47 AM
There's always something to learn from these discussions.....
That's really true, CMT. I always find that by going through these discussions and replying and taking part, it's good for me since it solidifies for me in what I believe and helps me straighten out the bugs in my worldview.

I remember that one thread, the Beowulf one I think, went off on an onscreen-gore tangent. It was actually helpful to me and changed the way I thought about some things.

colkai
01-24-2008, 10:16 AM
at the same time I can't help feel a slight bit angry that they had much to life for and took the easy way out.

There it is again, "easy way out", to stand on the sidelines and say "you have everything to live for" is to not understand one iota how it feels to these people.
It is not about how much you have, it's about how you feel, your self-worth and regardless of if you live in a hovel in the third world or stuffed to the gills with cash, it's purely material trappings, or lack of, and makes no difference.

Truthfully, unless you are DIRECTLY affected by the problem or someone you are close to is, you cannot begin to comprehend how devastating it can be.

My wife has been through therapy, been to see all kinds of shrinks, tried all sorts of medication. For the past decade she has tried everything she can think of and everything that society is oh so sure will "cure the problem" and can throw at her.
She dearly wishes it was as easy as just "getting on with it" and often remarks that sometimes, she is trapped "inside" screaming at the other "person" but cannot make herself heard.

Easy, no, not at all, not by any stretch, but the only alternative that seems clear and logical, even though, to everyone else, it seems quite the opposite.

Like I say, it's a situation where "walk a mile in a persons shoes" definitely applies, even then, it's hard, real hard, even for those of us who see it on a daily basis. For everyone else, well, unless they are a person of unique sensitivity and empathy, it's never going to "make sense" in a way that can be compartmentalised.

Some things do not sit in the simply "socially acceptable behaviour" area, they simply are. The best we can do is try to understand and be there to help if the call is made and as painful as it may be to accept, sometimes, that call is never made.

Steamthrower
01-24-2008, 10:18 AM
But encouraging someone to commit suicide? That's what you're saying you'd do if I'm reading you right. That's not far from being an accomplice to murder, and probably wouldn't sail too well in court.

greeb1957
01-24-2008, 10:22 AM
All u can be is a friend for that paticular person, if they need u they will come. You cant force yourself on them.

Stooch
01-24-2008, 10:34 AM
my father did it. this thread hits close to home. I agree that its cowardly to run. for me though its also a way to cope with the loss. Its easier to be angry then trying to find blame. Every story is unique, so i wouldnt make a blanket statement, but selfishness is definitelly part of the picture, it was in my case at least. The amount of pain this caused cannot be explained here and cannot be fully comprehended until i happens to you. however i dont understand why everyone is automatically assuming suicide with no real facts to back it up.

Steamthrower
01-24-2008, 10:38 AM
I don't think Heath Ledger committed suicide. There's a chance, but with all the new information that is coming up I don't think it's likely. Foolish accident, perhaps, but probably not suicide.

Stooch, you make a good point. It's hard to make a blanket statement. But in general suicide hurts a lot...and is selfish...and the emotions behind it last a lot longer than a normal death does.

*Pete*
01-24-2008, 11:00 AM
when i think about suicides (not planning to commit one), i always end up thinking about the persons who will be affected by it.

a person jumping in front of a train...imagine the shock the traindriver gets seeing that, and all the passengers...the people cleaning up the mess from under the train.

and then the family and friends reactions...there are so many people hurting when someone just gives up and ends his/her life, that i really wonder if it is so important to end the suffering by suicide when it causes so much suffering for others?

I read a story of a truckdriver who was hit by a suicide driver in a smaller car...he nearly died self of the crash, then he had years with nightmares, unable to work as a truckdriver for life and so on...and all of that becouse he was driving a suiciders dream machine..a heavy truck.
easy way out for the suicider, years of living hell for an innocent victim of the suicider...

death is always negative, but suicides are generally far worse...you will not look for logical reasons for accidental or natural deaths, but suicides will always bring the question "what could i have done to help" and a sence of quilt into everyone who knew the suicider.

news report that Heath didnt kill himself...good, but its sad he is dead.

colkai
01-24-2008, 11:32 AM
But encouraging someone to commit suicide? That's what you're saying you'd do if I'm reading you right. That's not far from being an accomplice to murder, and probably wouldn't sail too well in court.

NO, I am NOT encouraging suicide - Oh boy, you REALLY have no clue do you?

Gawd help anyone around you who may suffer from depression. :eek:

JBT27
01-24-2008, 11:42 AM
To skitter off direction, yep.
Any death, when all is said and done, is hard on those left behind, after all, it's hardly likely to be a problem for the person who has gone before / passed on etc.
Doesn't matter if it's suicide or not, it's tragic to someone, unless their death comes as a relief from very visible pain and suffering.

Morbid as it may sound, death is on my mind these days, I woke up realising there is less in front of me than is behind, a sobering thought.

To haul things back on topic for this off topic thread, I suspect his death was a tragic accident. Just reading that his housekeeper checked on him on 45 minutes or so prior and he was fast asleep and snoring away.

Good sentiments.....sad about Heath Ledger.....but I always think, when I hear of a celebrity's death, plastered all over the news, of all the other people who died today, naturally, accidentally, suicidally. Everyone is different, everyone has differing tolerances to what life throws at them, but one great hard fact is that there's going to be that moment for every single one of us.

I'm with colkai on the realisation thing, though I heartily hope there are quite a few more years left for both of us! But time goes very quickly. I watched my Mum die almost three years ago, most peacefully and gently, at home, at the age of 72 - it's one of the most sobering things you can ever see, and many do of course - but it haunts a part of you forever.

I wish some parts of society and culture didn't glamourise death so much, because whatever you believe, it is final for this existence, and all that happens is the world moves on without you.

Julian.

Steamthrower
01-24-2008, 12:10 PM
Don't think you quite understand me, Colkai. It just sounded to me like if your wife, for example, decided to die, you wouldn't try to stop her.

I'm not trying to make anybody mad here. I just tend to think people should live their lives and live it, if you know what I mean.

colkai
01-24-2008, 12:37 PM
Don't think you quite understand me, Colkai. It just sounded to me like if your wife, for example, decided to die, you wouldn't try to stop her.

Let me explain this, I have been in a relationship for over 30 years with someone who suffers from depression, diagnosed, confirmed and failed to be "treated" by all that society deems "acceptable", somehow, darn her, she *refuses* to get "better".

This subject, to me, is VERY personal and the lack of understanding and compassion towards those who suffer from it makes my blood boil.

The whole "life is for living just live it" is great, for those who do not suffer from depression. As I have said previously, you truly cannot comprehend it until you have lived with it.

As for not stopping her, you have no idea how many times I have had to lift her from suicidal depression, something which puts huge stress on me and often my health. As I keep saying, this is NOT EASY.

One has to question the whole morality of "just take the medication" too, after all, Heath Ledger had sleeping problems, the medication wasn't apparently working too well, okay, well then he should take more....he did.

You should read the leaflets that come with medication recommended for depression sufferers, then search the side effects. My wife may be in a fluctuating state of depression, but some of those pills are bordering on a death sentence.

Yet there we have it, people practically saying we should force folks to take them.
You know, at times I feel murders and rapists are given more sympathy, after all, it's not their fault, they are obviously ill, they need help to be re-integrated, human rights ya-da ya-da.

The balance I feel is rather skewed.

Steamthrower
01-24-2008, 12:52 PM
- Yet there we have it, people practically saying we should force folks to take them.

I'm not saying anything of the sort. Never have.

- You know, at times I feel murders and rapists are given more sympathy, after all, it's not their fault, they are obviously ill, they need help to be re-integrated, human rights ya-da ya-da.

They're not ill, they don't need to be integrated, they need to be punished. (Shot or hanged, specifically)

- This subject, to me, is VERY personal and the lack of understanding and compassion towards those who suffer from it makes my blood boil.

I think you're overreacting here. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be compassionate against people with problems like this. Not at all. I'm not this totally inexperienced "noob" that you seem to be implying that I am; trust me, I'm not a toddler, I'm actually able to vote and own a gun and trade stocks, okay? I've known people who were in "clinical depression". Some really had a genuine problem. Others used it as an excuse to vent their martyr complex.

I feel for your wife and for those affected by it. Please don't think I'm a Prospector in regards to this.

colkai
01-24-2008, 01:28 PM
I've known people who were in "clinical depression". Some really had a genuine problem. Others used it as an excuse to vent their martyr complex.
Then I'd say those people didn't actually have depression, it's my experience those who use anything as a crutch generally tend not to be the sufferers of it.

You know, the "my back is sooo bad", as opposed to the wife who gets pi$$ed off when her spine stops her pursuing things she'd love to. I've never yet seen her use her complaints (mental or physical) as an excuse, the opposite normally, she loves to dig the garden despite the pain.

People who go around talking about "being depressed" I think are just stressed, the problem lies in nowadays, "depressed" and "stressed" are becoming blurred and they are poles apart.

Me, I get stressed out, run down, badly so at times, but depressed, nope.
Postal, yep, ready and willing to commit murder, sure, fed up with the world in general wanting to wallow in the unfairness of life, well, normally by the time every Friday evening comes around. :hey:

Trouble is, we then say we are 'depressed', a touch of the Marvin the paranoid android syndrome. Makes it all the harder for true depression sufferers.

We don't suffer from partly broken bones, or nearly missing limbs, but I think many like to believe they are suffering from depression, even though truthfully, they know they aren't.

I always try to tell my wife, yes indeed, life is unfair, it sucks, sh%t happens in large quantity and from great heights.
To paraphrase a Babylon5 character, I draw great comfort from this, after all, if life wasn't unfair, it means all this [email protected] we are going through is deserved.

I pride myself on still being able to make her laugh after 30 years! :D

Lightwolf
01-24-2008, 01:32 PM
Jumping in here...

I wish some parts of society and culture didn't glamourise death so much, because whatever you believe, it is final for this existence, and all that happens is the world moves on without you.

I'm not sure about the glamourising part. It surely depends on the culture it comes from.
But, the loss from someone passing away is very selfish by itself. Mourning is. One is sad to see somebody go, which is because one will be missing something. Depending on your beliefs the person that left is either better off... or just in limbo.

Obviously, pulling third parties into it and making them feel guilty is a completely different thing.

Cheers,
Mike

mrpapabeis
01-24-2008, 01:39 PM
my father did it. this thread hits close to home. I agree that its cowardly to run. for me though its also a way to cope with the loss. Its easier to be angry then trying to find blame. Every story is unique, so i wouldnt make a blanket statement, but selfishness is definitelly part of the picture, it was in my case at least. The amount of pain this caused cannot be explained here and cannot be fully comprehended until i happens to you. however i dont understand why everyone is automatically assuming suicide with no real facts to back it up.


Stooch,

I am very sorry to hear about your father my friend. Rest assured I understand how you feel. It sucks. Love your kids when and if you have them.


GP

mrpapabeis
01-24-2008, 01:42 PM
I always try to tell my wife, yes indeed, life is unfair, it sucks, sh%t happens in large quantity and from great heights.
To paraphrase a Babylon5 character, I draw great comfort from this, after all, if life wasn't unfair, it means all this [email protected] we are going through is deserved.

I pride myself on still being able to make her laugh after 30 years! :D


You Sir are a true man of courage. You stayed with her after 30 years. Most in these times would have bailed. Thank you for speaking up.



GP

Steamthrower
01-24-2008, 01:45 PM
We don't suffer from partly broken bones, or nearly missing limbs, but I think many like to believe they are suffering from depression, even though truthfully, they know they aren't.
Well, partly broken bones or nearly missing limbs or anything is NO reason to get depressed.

And I can say that without fear or rebuttal. I personally have a couple fractured vertebrae in my upper spine & shoulderblade. I mean, not everyone has to go around for over a year wearing a 10-pound steel and plastic harness like I did, but that doesn't drive me into depression.

Then I'd say those people didn't actually have depression, it's my experience those who use anything as a crutch generally tend not to be the sufferers of it.
If your wife doesn't complain and gripe about it like most do, then I'd hazard a guess that yes, she's genuinely suffering from it. Kudos to her. It's the jerks who blame everything on their broken spine/obesity/ADD, etc., that give people with real problems a bad name.

My whole entire point in this discussion is that for the most part the medical conditions for mental health are a big joke.

I had a guy come up to me on the street and ask for directions this past summer (he said I looked like I knew tech stuff). And as I gave him the directions, he launched off into a 5-minute speech on how he was bipolar and his shrink was Presbyterian and he was printing some documents for his office.

This guy was suffering from nothing else than either insanity or an inferiority complex. He had a problem. No doctor is going to help him. He needs to buck up and get over it. He was the type who makes seriously ill people seem nonlegit.

Steamthrower
01-24-2008, 01:45 PM
You Sir are a true man of courage. You stayed with her after 30 years. Most in these times would have bailed. Thank you for speaking up.
GP

I second that. Good point Mr. Papabeis...divorce rate being what it is that points towards something postive.

mrpapabeis
01-24-2008, 01:57 PM
[i]-
I think you're overreacting here. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be compassionate against people with problems like this. Not at all. I'm not this totally inexperienced "noob" that you seem to be implying that I am; trust me, I'm not a toddler, I'm actually able to vote and own a gun and trade stocks, okay? I've known people who were in "clinical depression". Some really had a genuine problem. Others used it as an excuse to vent their martyr complex.

I feel for your wife and for those affected by it. Please don't think I'm a Prospector in regards to this.


inigo07

You are a good man. Colkai however has more experience in this matter. Clinical depression is a very serious matter that unfortunately is often met with sceptisim. And that is why Colkai has reacted so strongly. I'm sure he has had to deal often enough with sceptics.

GP

*Pete*
01-24-2008, 02:00 PM
[i] Please don't think I'm a Prospector in regards to this.

far from it...but it is quite funny that you are afraid to be branded as prospector ;)

Colkai: i agree with those two post above...it shows integrity and care to stay with a depressed wife, i know it cant be easy.
most people do not even last a 30 year marriage, some not even a 3 year marriage.

I have a friend who suffers with depression..its a horrible thing to have, if he takes medicaments against it, he becomes emotionally indifferent, and if he doesnt...he is depressed.
its a lose, lose situation.
I do my best to push him into activities, following the theory that say "a busy mind doesnt have the time to be depressed"...it seems to help somewhat, but its incredibly difficult to get a depressed person to actually do anything, as they have no desire for anything.

Steamthrower
01-24-2008, 02:03 PM
but it is quite funny that you are afraid to be branded as prospector
Just 'cause I feel like him right now. I guess I'm depressed or something. :cool:

inigo07

You are a good man. Colkai however has more experience in this matter.
Thanks for the reassurance, I knew there had to be some good in me :D

And yes, Colkai does have more experience. He's been married a bit longer than I've been alive. And I don't doubt what he's saying; it's just that I don't think suicide (back to the original!) is an acceptable resolution for depression.

*Pete*
01-24-2008, 02:13 PM
Not speaking of true knowledge, but this is more of a quess.

Happines is a chemical reaction from our brain, something called endomorphines (notice the -morphine) gets released and causes us to feel relaxed, happy and generally positive.

those who use drugs (cocaine, extacy...) force the brain to release all of it at once, which will give them the "kick" they all speak about, a sence of happines and super optimism, belief in self and all that..
but since the brain releases all of it at once, it will not have enough produced the next day so you wont feel the same happy as before.
it will take some time to get high enough deposits of the endomorphines again so that you can function normally without the drugs aid for happines.

my quess is, that depressed people have lower production of the endomorphines than normal, making them feel more depressed,


i quess i should google on these things before posting, but im too lazy.

mrpapabeis
01-24-2008, 02:18 PM
it's just that I don't think suicide (back to the original!) is an acceptable resolution for depression.

Heaven forbid, no it's not.

Any person who contemplates suicide needs help from the people in the society around them. That is the reason we live in society... To enrich our lives and help each other in time of need.


GP

colkai
01-24-2008, 02:19 PM
For sure, my wife tries all sorts to "release the dolphins" (endorphins ) as she puts it.

Bizzarely, my Xmas present to her this year really seems to have helped, a NintendoDS with the brain training program, it has made a huge difference to her - and they say computer games are bad for you! :)

Steamthrower
01-24-2008, 02:20 PM
and they say computer games are bad for you!
...say the dorky old gents who look like the PC guy on the Mac commercials.

My grandfather is in his 70's and he tends to like blasting away enemies on Far Cry and HL2...

mrpapabeis
01-24-2008, 02:21 PM
For sure, my wife tries all sorts to "release the dolphins" (endorphins ) as she puts it.

Bizzarely, my Xmas present to her this year really seems to have helped, a NintendoDS with the brain training program, it has made a huge difference to her - and they say computer games are bad for you! :)


Brain training?

What's this?

Please tell me more.

GP

Svenart
01-24-2008, 02:23 PM
First time I saw him was in "A Knights Tale", I liked the movie very much. I feeled very sad as I heard that hes dead now. He may rest in Peace...

@*Pete* : You are absolutely right.

*Pete*
01-24-2008, 02:25 PM
For sure, my wife tries all sorts to "release the dolphins" (endorphins ) as she puts it.

Bizzarely, my Xmas present to her this year really seems to have helped, a NintendoDS with the brain training program, it has made a huge difference to her - and they say computer games are bad for you! :)

Endorfins..thats it!! ;)

Endorfins are relased by a lot of things, physical training, computer games, puzzles, hobbies, love...everything that activates the body or brain.

there is this old saying that is as old as time itself "a busy mind doesnt have the time to be depressed"...if she is let alone to do nothing but despair, the depression will only grow.
but im sure you know all about it, 30 years is a long time.


edit: im not a depressed person, but i do feel a huge difference with my mood after im done with training.
if 2-3 days go without me going to the gym, i get restless and easily irritated...the gym, and the training there takes all problems away, works like meditation and the same time it gives me a better, stronger body.

dccpro
01-24-2008, 02:27 PM
I wonder how much of a problem depression was 100, 200, 300, 2000 years ago? I haven't searched for any info, but I would be interested to know if it has become worse in recent years.

I have seen exercise and diet work very well on my step brother. He will never take meds again. I also don't believe that meds are the answer.

Steamthrower
01-24-2008, 02:29 PM
That old saying here is usually "idleness is the devil's workshop", which basically means that if you don't have something to occupy yourself with, you'll just stagnate, not improve, and find all sorts of mischief to conjure up.

*Pete*
01-24-2008, 02:39 PM
I also don't believe that meds are the answer.

medication kills the negative, depressed emotions...and the positive, happy emotions.

its a bad solution and should never be used, at all...
nice to hear that your step brother is getting better.

as for depression occuring before, in past times...sadly yes, it has always existed.

See my avatar?..look at the yellow cat, he actually suffers from cronical depression and paranoia.
im not kidding.
its not unique to humans, but as mentioned earlier in the thread..its a much abused illnes with many claiming to be depressed while they are not.
its the perfect sickness for hypocondrics.

colkai
01-24-2008, 02:42 PM
Brain training?

What's this?

Please tell me more.

GP
Dunno if you get the adverts over there, over here there's one with Nicole Kidman. Basically, mental exercises, works out your "brain age", the lower, the better. The one downside, when she is doing the "speak out loud" bit, the dog gets all wound up and starts barking to "join in", which tends to make a mockery of her score. :p

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dr-Kawashimas-Brain-Training-Nintendo/dp/B000EGELP0/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=gateway&qid=1201210871&sr=8-1

Ahh. called "brain age" over the pond..
http://www.amazon.com/Games-Brain-Bundle-Nintendo-Train/dp/B001250SPO/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1201210797&sr=8-4

dccpro
01-24-2008, 02:42 PM
Poor kitty!:(

Lightwolf
01-24-2008, 02:43 PM
edit: im not a depressed person, but i do feel a huge difference with my mood after im done with training.
I find gyms too depressing to go there... all these people madly trying to get their body to release endorphines... ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Steamthrower
01-24-2008, 02:45 PM
its the perfect sickness for hypocondrics.

EXACTLY! And that is what gives every genuine sufferer a bad name. I'd hazard that 90% of so-called patients who have mental issues are fakes...all the way through.

And those 10%, the real ones, can't take medication for it and expect to actually do anything about it. Medication is a temporary solution. Active, aggressive steps are the only thing that they can use to truly combat it.

colkai
01-24-2008, 02:45 PM
I wonder how much of a problem depression was 100, 200, 300, 2000 years ago? I haven't searched for any info, but I would be interested to know if it has become worse in recent years.

I have seen exercise and diet work very well on my step brother. He will never take meds again. I also don't believe that meds are the answer.

I certainly think that stress is a condition of our modern age.
The old fight or flight, when you can't do either, that's when stress kicks in.

We just are not designed to operate in this 24/7 world.
Showing my age, but when I was first dating da wife, Sundays, the roads were deserted, shops closed, people actually *enjoyed* going out in the car.

Now, nothing closes, nothings stops, no time to find peace and calm, pressure leads to stress, which can lead to depression or worse. Stress does not limit itself to causing mental health problems, it can mess your body up in a myriad of ways.

dccpro
01-24-2008, 02:48 PM
I find gyms too depressing to go there... all these people madly trying to get their body to release endorphines... ;)

Cheers,
Mike
I go as much as possible. Its the guys on steroids that depress me!
It really makes me more focused and relaxed afterward.

*Pete*
01-24-2008, 02:52 PM
... all these people madly trying to get their body to release endorphines... ;)

Cheers,
Mike

so THAT is what they are doing!! lol

besides..its not called a "gym" these days...direct translation would be something like "health studio", and big muscular steroid users are nowhere to be seen.
I train mainly to have a body that is more immune against injuries (workrelated or otherwise), and body and strenght are just a welcome bonus..once it becomes a habit, it is just as necessary as brushing teeth in the morning.

Lightwolf
01-24-2008, 03:11 PM
so THAT is what they are doing!! lol

Yeah, whatever gives you kicks ;) (Hey, I know people that get their kicks out of freezing their finger tips off on the K2)

Cheers,
Mike

T-Light
01-24-2008, 03:32 PM
Sorry to hear there's so many in this thread suffering directly or indirectly from this. Nothing to add from my own life I'm afraid, I have a head full of sawdust and hot air. If the sawdust gets a little down and damp occasionally, the hot air tends to dry it out toot sweet.

There was a show on BBC4 a couple of months ago called 'Visions of the Future'. Chap called Dr. Michio Kaku visited various places across the planet to see where we're all heading.

I bring this up because there was a section on depression. There was a woman who'd been prescribed everything over the decades, nothing worked. Recently, they tried an operation where they planted a device in her brain. After she recovered from the operation they switched it on. BINGO, she turned into a happy smiling bunny of a woman within a few seconds, it was so strange to watch. They experimented with her for a few days to get the signals correct and as far as I'm aware, that was that.

Fingers crossed, this really is the way forward :)

Steamthrower
01-24-2008, 03:36 PM
Or the way to a Brave New World...just kidding.

Chris S. (Fez)
01-24-2008, 03:38 PM
I go as much as possible. Its the guys on steroids that depress me!

Don't be. I know so many meatheads on roids. It is sometimes depressing to see their supernatural progress but, given the side effects, you're much better off looking like a "girly man."

I used to workout just to try to look OK naked but now I do it because if I don't I feel tired and "depressed"...so I guess you could say I am addicted.

prospector
01-24-2008, 05:11 PM
Please don't think I'm a Prospector in regards to this.
I have said nothing about this????????


I'm not on this thread and yet I'm on it somehow

SaturnX
01-24-2008, 05:19 PM
Talk about a star going supernova?
This is a tragic loss big time


Life just sucks some days.

T-Light
01-24-2008, 05:21 PM
Prospector -

I have said nothing about this????????


I'm not on this thread and yet I'm on it somehowYou are now :D

prospector
01-24-2008, 05:56 PM
Was gonna say something,but whoever he was wasn't worth the time.

dccpro
01-24-2008, 07:52 PM
Don't be. I know so many meatheads on roids. It is sometimes depressing to see their supernatural progress but, given the side effects, you're much better off looking like a "girly man."

I used to workout just to try to look OK naked but now I do it because if I don't I feel tired and "depressed"...so I guess you could say I am addicted.
I am addicted as well!

Cougar12dk
01-25-2008, 02:14 AM
July 28th 2003, a friend and I were on our way to the local cinema (in South Auckland, NZ), another car drives out in front of us in a T-junction. My friend, also the driver, was killed instantly. I was thrown through the seat belt, smacked my head against the windshield...BAM, in a coma right there.

1 months later I wake from the coma, completely unaware of who I am, where I am or what I'm there for. And my short term memory was horrible. People could have just left from visiting me, when I'd be asking if they aren't coming or what?

When I got back to Denmark, I thought about how to kill myself .... at least for the first few years.... Because, I went from being a, sergeant in the danish army, and a helicopter pilot student (had gotten my private license in 13 flying hours) to being worthless (or that's what I felt), didn't remember a thing people told me.

But now 4 years on. I have bought a house with my wife-to-be (we met 2 years ago), I have a fairly good income (pension) and well on my way to a happy (albeit different from my original plans) life. We're talking about having kids too later this year (my dad's a twin so there's a chance it's going to be twins).

To sum it up.... thinking about suicide (everyone does at some point in their life) is just wasting your future opportunities. But I can certainly see WHY they do/did it

*Pete*
01-25-2008, 08:13 AM
I am addicted as well!

its the endorfins guys...its a drug and gets you addicted. :thumbsup:
i can see worse things to be addicted to than training.


Cougar: good story, you lost a lot but you didnt loose your life in that accident.
I often think what i would do, if i would loose my vision, or my ability to walk...it really takes character to continue living after severe loss like that.
But i think that once you realise and accept things as they are, you will find a reason to continue living, or atleast loose the reason not to live anymore.

mattclary
01-27-2008, 08:43 AM
I don't think it was suicide, just stupidity. Unfortunately, the autopsy is unlikely to reveal the motivation behind the overdose. :rolleyes:

T-Light
01-28-2008, 02:22 AM
Me -

There was a show on BBC4 a couple of months ago called 'Visions of the Future'. Chap called Dr. Michio Kaku visited various places across the planet to see where we're all heading.
Not exactly sure which episode that's from. For anyone in the UK or anyone that can pick up BBC4, the series is being reshown. Episode 1 is on this evening and the other two shown throughout the week. Think the depression cure might be in todays or tuesdays episode but I can't be sure.

BBC4: Monday 28 January
11:40 pm Visions of the Future
1/3. The Intelligence Revolution: Leading theoretical physicist and futurist Michio Kaku shows how in this century artificial intelligence is going to become as ubiquitous as electricity. [AD,S]

BBC4: Tuesday 29 January (Early Wednesday)
12:55 am Visions of the Future
2/3. The Biotech Revolution: Michio Kaku looks at the revolution in biotechnology, promising unprecedented health and longevity but could also unleash genetically engineered people. [AD,S]

BBC4: Thusday 31 January (Early Friday)
1:10 am Visions of the Future
The Quantum Revolution: Michio Kaku shows how quantum physics is giving mankind the almost godlike power to manipulate the fundamental building blocks of matter. [AD,S]

OT...
Anyone here watch BBC4 a lot? They've taken off Earth:Power of the planet mid series :cursin: , It's supposed to be on every Sunday at 10pm.

Does anyone have the foggiest idea why? :confused: