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View Full Version : Where's the love?



Darth Mole
01-09-2008, 05:09 AM
Probably going to get flamed for this, but I was just wondering…

What happened to our little messages from Jay Roth, that made us feel like LightWave was all big and exciting again? Where are the insights into NewTek and LW's development?

A certain other, unnamed company, sends me an email at Christmas and gives me weekly updates (okay, some recently not so interesting), but they're there nontheless.

What happened to the 'Cool Friends of Newtek' stuff, the email newsletters?

I really appreciate Proton's new video tutorials, but I feel like the guys at NT don't love us any more...

colkai
01-09-2008, 05:17 AM
They did say it would be some time after the first week in Jan and I'm guessing things aren't going to plan, (as if coding ever does ;) ), so they are likely focussing energies away from the boards.

Just glad we've got Will putting it out there for the masses, though yes, a word from our sponsors would be nice. ;)

-EsHrA-
01-09-2008, 06:04 AM
a one way street in this situation will never work.

speak up NT!


mlon

pumeco
01-09-2008, 06:30 AM
Well, I for one wouldn't flame you. I'm as curious as you are about what's going on with LightWave. I gotta say though, the concern I had about LightWave going downhill because of the marketing has changed a bit. I still don't like their marketing but I think I know the method behind the madness - and only time will tell if what I'm thinking was correct.

Here's what I'm hoping they'll do, and the reason for each statement :

Satement : Continue their current 'low profile' method of pushing Lightwave. Reason : Because the program is simply too unapproachable to a newcomer in its current state, and this will only alienate further users from LightWave.

Statement : On the LightWave product page, make damn sure the visitors easy access to the videos Will' is putting out. On the end of each video, a URL to the demo of LightWave. Reason : You'll notice I recommend a link to the 'videos' as priority over a link to LightWave. This is so that the downloader won't be presented with an interface and won't have a clue where to start. If you promote the videos foremost, then they already have an idea to be going on with once they actually download LightWave.

The comparison here is obvious :
Link to LightWave = Confusion, followed by a swift delete and a fresh look at Max and Maya.
Link to the Videos = Not just a genuine curiosity to act out what they just saw, but the ability to actually 'do it' without that terrifying feeling you get when you first load-up LightWave. This is 'very' important because once you have people experimenting with it - you're 99% closer to a sale.

Statement : For version 10, sort out the camera view navigation in layout. Reason : Disabling the navigation controls (which actually exist) when you go into camera view is absolute satanism! Lightwave has the most awkward 'look through' camera navigation I've ever known. We are able to pan, rotate, and move when in 'other' views - so why not allow it when it's most needed; when actually 'looking' through the camera! ...just like in Bryce, Carrara, or anything else really.

Statement : For version 10, have button-linked help videos and help files as was suggested earlier on this forum. Reason : LightWave kicks A*s, but it's pointless if people don't know how to use it. People can't show of to their Maya and Max friends with how things 'should' and 'can' be done - if they're not even aware they can actually do it in LightWave, and with the added bonus of not being suckered into a hefty price tag!

Statement : For version 10, make FPrime a built-in feature (or an official option), and make it work with 'every' surfacing feature in both modeler and layout. Reason : Isn't it obvious?

Statement : For version 10, after the initial release has been fixed with point releases, then, offer LightWave on daz3d.com. Reason : DAZ has a 'massive' content creating userbase that is interested in anything that will enhance their toolset. Obviously, LightWave WILL enhance their toolset, just make sure LightWave works flawlessly with Victoria and you can't loose on this one. Why do you think Pixo' and Lux' are already on to it?

Statement : For version 10, cater 'fully' for game content creators, and de-MAX the market. Reason : It's a big market, and NewTek are practically a non-entity in it right now.

Statement : For version 10, give users 'exactly' what they say they want regarding character animation. Reason : The sheer size of, and passion shown in the thread on this subject shows that this is no longer an option - it 'needs' to be done.


Well, that's it from me (alright, who said thank god for that?), but before a wrap-up for this session, one thing I want to say is that I hope NewTek don't change LightWave 'too' much. With the help of the videos, I'm really starting to 'get it' now, and I'd hate to loose any of the methods employed.


Here's to 10 :lwicon:

Snosrap
01-09-2008, 07:42 AM
Where are the insights into NewTek and LW's development?

Join the open beta program, Chuck commented there about LW's developement just prior to Christmas.

Snosrap

colkai
01-09-2008, 08:12 AM
We are able to pan, rotate, and move when in 'other' views - so why not allow it when it's most needed; when actually 'looking' through the camera!
I am presuming I'm misunderstanding you here because I constantly use pan / rotate in the camera view.

Iain
01-09-2008, 08:17 AM
I am presuming I'm misunderstanding you here because I constantly use pan / rotate in the camera view.

That to me is one of Layout's strong points. I can't stand using software where you can't move the camera while looking throught the camera.

I also love the way you can pan and zoom in fprime.

Chuck
01-09-2008, 09:33 AM
Probably going to get flamed for this, but I was just wondering…

What happened to our little messages from Jay Roth, that made us feel like LightWave was all big and exciting again? Where are the insights into NewTek and LW's development?

A certain other, unnamed company, sends me an email at Christmas and gives me weekly updates (okay, some recently not so interesting), but they're there nontheless.

What happened to the 'Cool Friends of Newtek' stuff, the email newsletters?

I really appreciate Proton's new video tutorials, but I feel like the guys at NT don't love us any more...

William is "one of the guys from NT" as a member of the Content team with Marketing and Development ties as well, and I would hope the videos count for some "lovin'" toward our LightWavers. :)

As for the newsletters and communications - NewTek Marketing is undergoing an overhaul and I'm sure will be getting back in the saddle with more forms of communication for our customers very soon. They've been pretty much concentrating on a comprehensive, detailed long term plan for all aspects of NewTek's marketing, and will get the ball rolling on a variety of fronts as that plan is finalized. A lot of folks have expressed that they want to see some new directions from our Marketing effort, and the new team is determined to deliver on that.

As the leader and visionary for NewTek's 3D development Jay will certainly be participating and providing communiques, and he and I both read the forums daily and post regularly both in the public and the Open Beta sections. We try to be as informative as reasonably possible, and we certainly hope that we manage to communicate our excitement at the progress for 3D that the team is achieving, even though we may not necessarily be able to share details until things reach the point of release.

pumeco
01-09-2008, 09:34 AM
About the camera; I could have explained that better :o

I'll compare with Bryce for example: In Bryce you have a trackball, pan, and move control. In LightWave we have the same when we use the controls in the top-right corner of the view. The problem though, is that in Layout - these controls get greyed-out as soon as you go into camera view.

WTF!!! ...Why? ...Why grey them out? ...Why not leave them active and allow us to use them 'on' the camera when looking through the camera?

It's driving me nut's (and I'm bad enough already), I can't stand having to constantly switch between move, pan, and rotate all the time. I mean, I bought FPrime to speed-up the learning curve, but it sure feels like this camera setup is slowing everything down again. I really hope they will enable the top-right navigation controls when in camera view (allowing you to move the camera while actually looking through it).

Could you say you can do this already, now that I've explained better?

PS: Sorry for OT'ing the thread, Darth' :)

-EsHrA-
01-09-2008, 09:37 AM
my love goes towards William.
my love for NT will be adressed again when u deliver.

since i got a whole lotta love...
be sure to deliver and my love is all over u.


mlon

Chuck
01-09-2008, 09:43 AM
Statement : On the LightWave product page, make damn sure the visitors easy access to the videos Will' is putting out.

Thanks for the list of recommendations! Just to note with regard to this one, the product page has a "Free LightWave Training" button prominent on the right that links to the training videos. Currently, the press section also leads off with the press release Marketing issued about the videos.

Otterman
01-09-2008, 09:46 AM
Yeewww.....give that man a tissue for gawds sake!

kopperdrake
01-09-2008, 10:01 AM
About the camera; I could have explained that better :o

I'll compare with Bryce for example: In Bryce you have a trackball, pan, and move control. In LightWave we have the same when we use the controls in the top-right corner of the view. The problem though, is that in Layout - these controls get greyed-out as soon as you go into camera view.

WTF!!! ...Why? ...Why grey them out? ...Why not leave them active and allow us to use them 'on' the camera when looking through the camera?

It's driving me nut's (and I'm bad enough already), I can't stand having to constantly switch between move, pan, and rotate all the time. I mean, I bought FPrime to speed-up the learning curve, but it sure feels like this camera setup is slowing everything down again. I really hope they will enable the top-right navigation controls when in camera view (allowing you to move the camera while actually looking through it).

Could you say you can do this already, now that I've explained better?

PS: Sorry for OT'ing the thread, Darth' :)

Dude - I know what you're saying about them being greyed out but I think you have the wrong end of the stick maybe? They're there to move and pivot the perspective viewpoint - when you highlight a camera to move it and you're looking down on your scene from the perspective viewpoint then they still don't move the camera - the camera only gets moved if you click it and use the mouse to move it around and rotate it. Or you use the menu commands in the 'Modify' menu. You can move the camera if you're in any of the viewpoints (perspective, light, camera).

I guess you're just saying leave them active for whatever item is currently highlighted - make them shortcuts to the Modify menu buttons? Would make sense I guess, though I've never really used them to be honest for moving or rotating the perspective viewpoint and I can't imagine using them for the lights or camera, way too fiddly :)

As for games content - that would involve a *huge* overhaul and price-hike. Max is struggling these days with its inherent architecture, I know personally of companies moving wholly over to Maya as it's more suited to the complex pipeline needed in today's games. Max was great when your character animation was more simple, Lightwave was great when poly modelling was king, nowadays it's so much more and to develop in-house engines and converters that cater for at least three pieces of software creating their own take on modelling, texturing and animating, and making sure it talks backwards and forwards with the engine and each other is a major headache from what I know. Maya does seem to be gaining ground as a great all-rounder in games, just in my experience you understand :)

pumeco
01-09-2008, 10:09 AM
Thanks for the list of recommendations! Just to note with regard to this one, the product page has a "Free LightWave Training" button prominent on the right that links to the training videos. Currently, the press section also leads off with the press release Marketing issued about the videos.

The pleasure's all mine, Chuck :)

Thank's for pointing that out, I hadn't noticed it before. But you see, that's the problem I'm trying to elaborate on. Your website has 'too much' eye candy. There is too much to take in at once, your eyes are everywhere - and the only place they 'should' be is fixed on is the button ... that leads to the videos ... that leads to a download of LightWave ... that leads to a sale!

You could get away with only 'one' element on your webpage; that one element being a MASSIVE button to the videos. You need to 'control' the customers footsteps: IE: videos first, Demo second!

That's all I'm saying ... and I'm only giving you this free advice because I like NewTek and LightWave ... so don't waste it :D

Andyjaggy
01-09-2008, 10:10 AM
Thanks Chuck.

That's all we want is a little sign your around and listening every once in a while :)

Matt
01-09-2008, 10:16 AM
About the camera; I could have explained that better :o

I'll compare with Bryce for example: In Bryce you have a trackball, pan, and move control. In LightWave we have the same when we use the controls in the top-right corner of the view. The problem though, is that in Layout - these controls get greyed-out as soon as you go into camera view.

WTF!!! ...Why? ...Why grey them out? ...Why not leave them active and allow us to use them 'on' the camera when looking through the camera?

Well, you do have a point there, new users won't be proficient with the 't' and 'y' keys along with the left and right mouse buttons.

There's no reason they should be greyed out when in camera view mode to be honest, they could quite easily change their behavior instead of forcing the user to resort to key shortcuts.

BUT ...

Having said that, once you do know about the hotkeys moving the camera becomes second nature, I've tried other apps that just don't feel as natural as LightWave.

But I agree, there is no good argument for making them inactive for those who want to use gadgets over shortcuts.

Matt
01-09-2008, 10:19 AM
They're there to move and pivot the perspective viewpoint - when you highlight a camera to move it and you're looking down on your scene from the perspective viewpoint then they still don't move the camera - the camera only gets moved if you click it and use the mouse to move it around and rotate it.

No he means why are they inactive when you are looking THROUGH the camera (or a light for that matter) I agree, there is no reason.

kopperdrake
01-09-2008, 10:22 AM
I said that in my second paragraph :)

pumeco
01-09-2008, 11:54 AM
Thanks kopperdrake and Matt :)

I was beginning to wonder if I was missing a trick or something. I'm lazy though, I kinda slouch back in my chair when I'm using LightWave. I just take my time and can't be bothered with sitting-up to the keyboard to use shortcuts. I really 'desperately' hope they will enable these controls though, because it's just spoiling the enjoyment for me somewhat.

I can live with it, but as I've decided to remain a LightWave user for eternity - it's a daunting feeling that they may never rectify it. I mean be honest, how can having to select between modes be better than just having a 'hands-on' control handy - just like in Modeler etc...

Hell man, I hope they activate it. It'll be the first thing I look for in version 10, although I doubt they'd give such a thing any priority (simple as it may be) :goodluck:

Andyjaggy
01-09-2008, 12:03 PM
no keyboard shortcuts. gasp! how do you survive?

pumeco
01-09-2008, 12:14 PM
no keyboard shortcuts. gasp! how do you survive?
Surprisingly easy :)

I've never been one for using them unless I'm absolutely forced to. Come to think of it, one of the reasons I use Photo-Paint over Photoshop is because Photo-Paint's 'Clone' tool allows you to 'Right-Click' and set a clone point.

No such luxury in Photoshop, oh no, you have to get off your arse and press a key every time with that one :D

Andyjaggy
01-09-2008, 12:20 PM
Well whatever floats your boat. Personally I would work about twice as slow if I didn't use keyboard shortcuts.

adamredwoods
01-09-2008, 12:26 PM
Well whatever floats your boat. Personally I would work about twice as slow if I didn't use keyboard shortcuts.

Using great software is like playing a musical instrument. One hand on the keyboard, one on the mouse/tablet. When working at full speed, your brain automatically multi-tasks.

pumeco
01-09-2008, 12:36 PM
You guys really need to relax once in a while and try a MONOtasking lifestyle :hey:

And anyway, I always thought it was a female thing, multitasking. Guy's aren't supposed to be able to multitask at all from what I hear, only women (like doing the ironing and doing lunch at the same time).

Steamthrower
01-09-2008, 12:36 PM
Using great software is like playing a musical instrument. One hand on the keyboard, one on the mouse/tablet. When working at full speed, your brain automatically multi-tasks.

You've never heard me play electric guitar one-handed, then. :D

Snosrap
01-09-2008, 12:38 PM
Surprisingly easy :)

I've never been one for using them unless I'm absolutely forced to. Come to think of it, one of the reasons I use Photo-Paint over Photoshop is because Photo-Paint's 'Clone' tool allows you to 'Right-Click' and set a clone point.

No such luxury in Photoshop, oh no, you have to get off your arse and press a key every time with that one :D

Amen pumeco. I hereby challenge everyone to ditch PShop for a week and give Photo-Paint a good hard look. You won't go back! (Yeah, yeah - no Mac version:thumbsdow )

Back on topic. NT is doing the community a fantastic service with the mini-tutorials that William has been producing!:thumbsup: As far as the camera and light issue- both options would be great!

Cheers
Snosrap

Steamthrower
01-09-2008, 12:41 PM
I hereby challenge everyone to ditch PShop for a week and give Photo-Paint a good hard look.

I vowed long ago to never use a Corel product again in my life. They're the B-grade of software.

Iain
01-09-2008, 01:19 PM
Back to the camera issue-when you get used to LW's way, it becomes second nature and positioning the camera from within using move and rotate is far more intuitive than other methods I've experience of.
Personally, the bryce/vue method seems clumsy in comparison.

Als, if you have a scroll wheel on your mouse, you just switch between move and rotate with that.

Andyjaggy
01-09-2008, 01:50 PM
Agree 100%. I hate moving the camera around in Vue so much I will usually load up LW just to do the camera move.

*Pete*
01-09-2008, 01:58 PM
regarding the camera...id like to be able to move it with the arrow keys while rotating with the mouse.

i know there is a plugin for that, but it would be nice to have it built in...but its not so important, i like the camera in layout as it is.

AbnRanger
01-09-2008, 03:12 PM
William is "one of the guys from NT" as a member of the Content team with Marketing and Development ties as well, and I would hope the videos count for some "lovin'" toward our LightWavers. :)

As for the newsletters and communications - NewTek Marketing is undergoing an overhaul and I'm sure will be getting back in the saddle with more forms of communication for our customers very soon. They've been pretty much concentrating on a comprehensive, detailed long term plan for all aspects of NewTek's marketing, and will get the ball rolling on a variety of fronts as that plan is finalized. A lot of folks have expressed that they want to see some new directions from our Marketing effort, and the new team is determined to deliver on that.

As the leader and visionary for NewTek's 3D development Jay will certainly be participating and providing communiques, and he and I both read the forums daily and post regularly both in the public and the Open Beta sections. We try to be as informative as reasonably possible, and we certainly hope that we manage to communicate our excitement at the progress for 3D that the team is achieving, even though we may not necessarily be able to share details until things reach the point of release.Hey Chuck...back around Siggraph I had a little idea that your marketing dept might care to entertain and perhaps develop it further. Here it goes...take from it what you will,

Seeing that William teaches there at the DAVE school in Orlando, how about him taking them on a field trip and snapping some quality photos of people on some rollercoasters and "adventurous" rides. Selecting one good photo, place it within the design (perhaps going through an opening within a text character) on the LW page and any other marketing collateral...along with the following slogan:

Lightwave 3D 9.5. Grab a Seat...Hang on for the ride!
>Topic Sentence<
" Lightwave 3D...an already powerful Industry Standard is undergoing profound and exciting core changes. While other applications tend to release upgrades prone to cause drowsiness or additional side effects, you'll find Lightwaving to be a ride that thrills!"

AbnRanger
01-09-2008, 03:41 PM
The whole point in this marketing strategy is to turn the waiting process into a positive, i.e., that while the program is undergoing core changes (thus longer periods between full upgrades), the resulting changes are FAR more profound and substantive than the competition's average upgrade cycle.
As a Max user as well, I know this from firsthand experience. In Max 2008, you may want to avoid operating any machinery, cause it's a real snoozer, IMHO. :D