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jin choung
12-24-2007, 06:37 PM
this website has other videos like rigging and animation tests too! but check out this hair render page. you need an ogg video player to see the video but it's worth it!

http://peach.blender.org/index.php/grooming-time/#more-177

from implementation to look, to the rationale behind things, it's frickin' awesome!

someone at work said that the fur doesn't look like it's doing much. but given that this is an initial test, and heck, even for lower budget projects, the hair isn't doing anything BAD! and that's amazing!

jin

cresshead
12-24-2007, 06:44 PM
yeah blender and more to the point the animation artist and developers are really turning the screw on blender of late...

:o wow do these look COOL or what!
blender...if you pre pay for the dvd you'll be helping the production and get your name on the credits of the final film...

also the final shipping dvd will have EVERYTHING..the models the scenes and the animation...even blender app!

http://peach.blender.org/wp-content/uploads/poster_bunny_small.jpg

http://peach.blender.org/wp-content/uploads/poster_rodents_small.jpg

http://www.blender3d.org/e-shop/product_in...?products_id=97 (http://www.blender3d.org/e-shop/product_info.php?products_id=97)

youtube rigging overview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WrTxP_ETzQ

jin choung
12-24-2007, 06:51 PM
yeah!

man and i loooooove their development philosophy. they admit right up front that they're not coming up with this stuff from whole cloth. THEY CITE THEIR SOURCES... when i clicked on the link about "particle improvements" for the hair, you're taken to the blender website where they talk about not only particle improvements but skinning and all kinds of stuff and in each mini-article, they CITE A PAPER upon which their concepts are based.

rather than diminishing their knowledge, it really makes me feel like they understand what the issues are.

good stuff.

and yah, i love how development is tied to production needs of their open source movies. really brilliant development philosophy - assuming of course that the people making the movie know what they're doing. and they really do seem to!

jin

jin choung
12-24-2007, 06:52 PM
and the whole idea of "open source movie".... that's great. you could conceivably have sequels from fans. great stuff.

jin

cresshead
12-24-2007, 06:59 PM
i'm defiantly going to buy the dvd of the movie..just form the stills and small youtube character animation it looks like a fun project to have a look at.

cresshead
12-24-2007, 07:08 PM
btw lightwave had something similar back in 7+ days when menithings made his short film 'le freak' and he helped push lightwave with production proven needs and improvements.
would be neat if dave school or BSG fx could help drive future development of lightwave to some degree..

Cageman
12-24-2007, 08:07 PM
Wow... damn... I have to say, right now, Blender is the app that amazes me the most... Maybe it's time to start learning how to use it, becase it's just too good to be free... :)

Thanks for the heads up Jin...

jin choung
12-24-2007, 10:09 PM
np. yeah and there's a LOT to like about it. lots of great features including fluid simulation, hair, skinning, subds, sculpting, etc....

in my estimation, if they keep this up, at this pace, newtek should start watching their back... at the latest... 2009.

lw's primary value has always (at least in my eyes) revolved around price/performance and accessibility. if blender deals with accessibility, it's gonna be tough to argue with free.

i read another article about some blender guys doing a star trek fan film (but with some of the original actors!) and he says that the blender motto should be: "you either get the interface or you don't"....

haha... gotta say, that's pretty dead on.

i think it's more a function of familiarity. i can appreciate the logic of the interface. there IS a logic. and it's really quite... logical.

but it's unpleasant for people coming from other mainstream apps. it may be logical but not at all similar to other apps. so that makes it a bit of an issue with crossover users.

but i've heard that the interface is indeed up for revision in this whole number iteration so i'm hoping they can come up with some way to appease the die hard blender heads who like it as it is (and there is really a lot to like... it's just soooooo different) and others who may have a lot of experience in other workflows.

jin

(and imo, the best way to counter innovation and speed of development of the open source community is to make lw9.x the final version of lw classic. make it bug free and then release it to the community under gnu or something else and allow for open development. make it a viable version that remains compatible with legacy plugins for people to use in perpetuity.

the app itself is not free. you either buy it or it comes free with lw ZERO for a while. but source code is given to the community... maybe form a little foundation that controls user development [like the blender foundation]. the relationship between commercial app and source code is like how id does it with their games... quake3 is still not free but the source code is out there and available to whoever wants to fiddle with it.

this should satisfy old school wavers who will probably get updates faster than they could otherwise ever and maintain compatibility with a huuuuge database of free (and commercial plugins) and also people who want a clean break from legacy infrastructure so that lw can be free to really compete as a next gen app.

LIGHTWAVE ZERO... the way to go)

oldtekerr
12-24-2007, 10:28 PM
i think it's more a function of familiarity

I see many a LWer fall victim to this...

Blender does seem to be moving faster then we are!:agree:

jin choung
12-24-2007, 10:37 PM
I see many a LWer fall victim to this...

Blender does seem to be moving faster then we are!:agree:

hmmm, well coming from lw and maya (with just a dusting of max), it seems to me that the more commercial apps you know, the harder it'll be for you in blender!

jin

oldtekerr
12-25-2007, 12:20 AM
I always see post of people saying I couldn't get used this or that interface... Thats why they stick with LW... I just started messing with some of these other programs but from my use of blender thus far... I don't find it any harder to get used to then Maya... or any other. Zbrush was one that was a little different, but it works for me now...

jin choung
12-25-2007, 12:51 AM
yah, i see those people too.

i'm not those people. i don't advocate similarity to lw. i advocate all apps conforming to whatever can be agreed upon as a standard. and to deviate only when it's genuinely BETTER. no difference for difference sake.

and while i recognize that there is definitely a well thought out logic behind blender's interface, it's the well thought out logic of someone who didn't come from a 3d graphics background (in terms of tools). not all of its difference is BETTER. like someone had to come up with something from scratch. truly legacy free but also convention free and that can be a liability if not a deal breaker.

same thing with zb... it started life as a paint program and that legacy remains. but either got i used to it or it really did change a bit in version 3 but i don't mind it too much anymore.

anyhoo, definitely not advocating blender be more like LIGHTWAVE! lightwave is many things but elegant and well thought out is NOT one of them!

but it would be nice if the interface took more of its conventions from the big 3d tools out there.

jin

DiedonD
12-25-2007, 01:51 AM
I always see post of people saying I couldn't get used this or that interface... Thats why they stick with LW... I just started messing with some of these other programs but from my use of blender thus far... I don't find it any harder to get used to then Maya... or any other. Zbrush was one that was a little different, but it works for me now...

Yeah Im one of them. I just cant tolerate the toolbar to be down for instance. It just doesnt works for me. Its always there as you go about and do stuff. Its like holding you back with real weights, from beeing creative and trying to learn the stuff. So much so. That I didnt even bother looking weather it could be adjustable, and move it from down to right.
Yeah, I have the toolbar to my right side in LW. It suits me alot better. Anyone else is ay... errmm... "Rightist"

Cageman
12-25-2007, 05:23 AM
3D Buzz have a bunch of free Blender VTMs...

http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=90825

EDIT: Well, links to VTMs at least... hehe.. :)

cresshead
12-25-2007, 05:42 AM
so...err have you tried this u.i. for blender?:)

http://www.daniel3d.com/pepeland/misc/3dstuff/blender/maxmayainterface/maxmayainterface.htm

http://www.daniel3d.com/pepeland/misc/3dstuff/blender/maxmayainterface/maxmayainterface_cap.jpghttp://www.daniel3d.com/pepeland/misc/3dstuff/blender/rig/red-nelb/red-nelb_cap03.jpg

archijam
12-25-2007, 06:05 AM
I see many a LWer fall victim to this...

Blender does seem to be moving faster then we are!:agree:

.. Faster than almost all the 3D apps more like .. I wouldn't single out LW there ..

archijam
12-25-2007, 06:05 AM
I see many a LWer fall victim to this...

Blender does seem to be moving faster then we are!:agree:

.. Faster than almost all the 3D apps more like .. I wouldn't single out LW there ..

A year ago I had barely heard of blender ...

cresshead
12-25-2007, 06:15 AM
the rigging in blender looks pretty much pro level to my eyes
see the vid below...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WrTxP_ETzQ

what else would you need for a good face rig?

of course we're just seeing the 'end point' of it in use and not how easy/hard it was to make..

and yeah blender sure has raised it's game over the last year or two...compare that to say what i got with my latest max 2008 update in regards of new tools or capabilities and ..hmm...blender looks to be on a roll

i think they are trying to woo a studio or two to take up blender as a film/tv production tool by SHOWING that it's capable of quality character animation as good as what bluesky, dreamworks or pixar can produce.

good luck to them i say...and the look to be well on track so far.

Stooch
12-25-2007, 06:38 AM
this is all beautiful stuff but open source falls on its face when it comes to specific support. ie if you are working on a project and need developer help, who do you go to? do you hire your own programmer? When stuff doesnt work, who do you ***** at? i think there is a certain degree of accountability that you get when you pay for a piece of software, when you get it for free, you can only complain...

cresshead
12-25-2007, 06:59 AM
yeah that's a downside for sure...on the flipside you get a totally open SDK..you want something and your a developer like say worley..you can build it without any hurdles of locked off sdk areas...of course making money from your developments would be problematic!

Speedmonk42
12-25-2007, 07:33 AM
yeah that's a downside for sure...on the flipside you get a totally open SDK..you want something and your a developer like say worley..you can build it without any hurdles of locked off sdk areas...of course making money from your developments would be problematic!

But making money from it isn't the point.

You also benifet from everyone else that does the same thing.

You are also still thinking one developer. A $1000 development donation as a bounty or general contribution to fix a problem could have 15 people work on it and not just fix the problem but spawn something completely new.

Every dollar or bit of effort you put in is open, stays open and continues to contribute as long as there is electricity.

cresshead
12-25-2007, 08:18 AM
hey i'm not against blender at all...it looks cool..there are good sides and not so good sides for open sourced software, just pointing out that most commercial developers have no/little interest in developing for blender...the developers working on the short film linked in this thread get paid for their work/time from the sale of the dvd.

i'm buying the dvd btw...and will have a play in blender as a side line to my work in lightwave, zbrush and 3dsmax.

i'm hoping that the character tools we are getting soon for lightwave will be as cool as some of the stuff seen in blender, max, maya and xsi.

one thing i really like is that blender is developed for all O/s systems..including linux, max osx...

IMI
12-25-2007, 08:21 AM
Would be nice if they had a 64-bit version of Blender for Windows. I suppose all in good time.
Anybody seen any Blender video training courses? Their e-shop has a few books, but I'm not seeing much detailed video training anywhere, there or anywhere else.
I did find this though:
http://blenderunderground.com/2007/07/18/blender-basics-part-1-video-tutorial-completed/

Looks kind of interesting.

Lito
12-25-2007, 10:02 AM
IMI: IIRC there aren't any for Windows 64bit because one of the key components for blender (python) isn't available in a 64bit windows version yet.

tischbein3
12-25-2007, 11:12 AM
the rigging in blender looks pretty much pro level to my eyes
see the vid below...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WrTxP_ETzQ

what else would you need for a good face rig?

A more comfortabe keyframe editing system...;)
(Sorry, I really tried, but I couldn't resist on this one....)

Btw: they are also experimenting to implement instancing

Anti-Distinctly
12-25-2007, 01:19 PM
I've tried using Blender on several occasions. It's feature list is very impressive, but in the past I've jsut found it rather cumbersome to work with. Not the interface, that's fine, but the work flow. The whole system for texturing I find very unintuitive and difficult to learn, and the lack of a comprehensive training series (until I found this page http://walkercreations.org/blender.html#Neal%20Hirsig%20Video%20Tutorials from one of the links on here - I'll hcekc these out) has turned me away every time. Well, the seemingly awkward way of doing simple things has turned me away, but maybe it's just very different. It's a nice program, but I ended up missing so many things that are taken for granted in LW that I always come back.

RedBull
12-25-2007, 03:39 PM
Would be nice if they had a 64-bit version of Blender for Windows. I suppose all in good time.

There are 64bit optmized SSE builds of Blender, there are even optimized OSX and UB builds of Blender, if you know where to look.


IMI: IIRC there aren't any for Windows 64bit because one of the key components for blender (python) isn't available in a 64bit windows version yet.

Others have been doing optimized builds there are a few websites that do do a 64bit windows version. (But yeah a little pain the the *** for developers)

http://www.blenderbuilds.com
Will often have better optimized builds, and there are links on Blendernation to the previous 64bit version i was using....

You all know that Ubuntu Studio included Blender as well.

jin choung
12-25-2007, 05:14 PM
oooooh... neat cress. i'll have to check that out. more than placement of the tools though, i just get lost regarding what is where and the dang weird but (but logical) button usage....

jin

jin choung
12-25-2007, 05:18 PM
this is all beautiful stuff but open source falls on its face when it comes to specific support. ie if you are working on a project and need developer help, who do you go to? do you hire your own programmer? When stuff doesnt work, who do you ***** at? i think there is a certain degree of accountability that you get when you pay for a piece of software, when you get it for free, you can only complain...

haha... umm, that's pretty much commercial software too!

when was the last time you ran into a bug in ANY commercial app and had them address it for you?

we's all waitin' for the next point update and that's the same seems to me as if we're commercial or open source.

from personal experience, when it comes to this, i see NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever.

jin

jin choung
12-25-2007, 05:20 PM
I've tried using Blender on several occasions. It's feature list is very impressive, but in the past I've jsut found it rather cumbersome to work with. Not the interface, that's fine, but the work flow. The whole system for texturing I find very unintuitive and difficult to learn, and the lack of a comprehensive training series (until I found this page http://walkercreations.org/blender.html#Neal%20Hirsig%20Video%20Tutorials from one of the links on here - I'll hcekc these out) has turned me away every time. Well, the seemingly awkward way of doing simple things has turned me away, but maybe it's just very different. It's a nice program, but I ended up missing so many things that are taken for granted in LW that I always come back.

actually, in regards to blender, this may be closer to the sentiment i'm trying to express.

as i said, the interface seems logical. but the WORKFLOW can at times be somewhat exasperating.

good point ad.

jin

oldtekerr
12-25-2007, 05:28 PM
when was the last time you ran into a bug in ANY commercial app and had them address it for you?

Well... I have had a few bugs that I found in LW fixed pretty quickly, but I think thats because LW 9x has been an on going beta... not a finished product!!!

jin choung
12-25-2007, 05:30 PM
well that's not an experience i've had. with lw or maya or anything... i'm sure autodesk does indeed provide such support... for ilm. but for smaller companies and individuals. NO.

jin

oldtekerr
12-25-2007, 05:39 PM
well that's not an experience i've had. with lw or maya or anything... i'm sure autodesk does indeed provide such support... for ilm. but for smaller companies and individuals. NO.

jin


I suppose your right... LW open beta is to find and squash bugs, so it isn't the same situation.
Not to mention... the things I really want to see fixed in LW don't seem to get done.

You are right about one thing... I cant wait to see what they have accomplished for this next update!

cresshead
12-25-2007, 05:55 PM
yeah next update for lw will with luck show just where newtek are heading for in later versions of lightwave...the character rig animation thing needs a proper update not just a tweek or slap on plugin that sorta gets 'a bit' fixed.

out with the old and in with the new...please!
i'll keep an eye on blender too...looking forward to the dvd of the animation.

Stooch
12-25-2007, 10:28 PM
haha... umm, that's pretty much commercial software too!

when was the last time you ran into a bug in ANY commercial app and had them address it for you?

we's all waitin' for the next point update and that's the same seems to me as if we're commercial or open source.

from personal experience, when it comes to this, i see NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever.

jin

a whole bunch of bugs actually, in maya for the most part. messiah too, im sure lw addressed a bunch i didnt even know about ;)

jin choung
12-25-2007, 11:00 PM
"addressed a bunch i didn't even know about"

that's what i mean. they do this all the time in every point release. every commercial company.

but my contention is that you don't get any MORE support because a company is commercial. when was the last time autodesk went and addressed a bug FOR YOU?

me, never.

so again, i'm saying there's no diff between commercial and open source.

jin

DiedonD
12-25-2007, 11:01 PM
so...err have you tried this u.i. for blender?:)



Naah... I havent tried it. It wouldnt even cross my mind, cause you know... I hate the two M's ;)

Dodgy
12-26-2007, 01:30 AM
"addressed a bunch i didn't even know about"
but my contention is that you don't get any MORE support because a company is commercial. when was the last time autodesk went and addressed a bug FOR YOU?
jin

I've seen a lot of the bugs I've reported fixed, especially if I could provide sample scenes. That seems to be the key to getting stuff fixed, and if you want a particular feature, provide particular examples as to why the feature would be useful.

Cageman
12-26-2007, 02:42 AM
well that's not an experience i've had. with lw or maya or anything... i'm sure autodesk does indeed provide such support... for ilm. but for smaller companies and individuals. NO.

jin

You are probably right in your assasement, but I have to say that the bunch of people making this movie is the Blender-communitys equivalence to "VFX-communitys" ILM. I wonder if I would get the same treatment as those guys if I found bugs or wanted new features for Blender?

cresshead
12-26-2007, 03:19 AM
note that in the production team on that movie ARE 2 blender developers...
in a recent blog one of them is writing a procedural tree maker for instance.

and diedond...you HATE m'm's?

http://www.globmax.net/glob/images/mnsmsf.jpg

:thumbsup: :D :lwicon:

colkai
12-26-2007, 03:48 AM
Yeah Im one of them. I just cant tolerate the toolbar to be down for instance. It just doesn't works for me. Its always there as you go about and do stuff. Its like holding you back with real weights, from beeing creative and trying to learn the stuff.
Me too I'm afraid.
I think, like a heck of a lot of people, I *want* to get to grips with it, it just really messes with my mind. I do think if they brought that interface into some sort of line with other 3D programs, it would boost it's popularity enormously. There is no denying it's power, it's just a shame one often feels "prevented" from really getting to grips with the features because of the amount of "huh? WTF?" moments when trying to learn it.

Anti-Distinctly
12-26-2007, 04:23 AM
Me too I'm afraid.
I think, like a heck of a lot of people, I *want* to get to grips with it, it just really messes with my mind. I do think if they brought that interface into some sort of line with other 3D programs, it would boost it's popularity enormously. There is no denying it's power, it's just a shame one often feels "prevented" from really getting to grips with the features because of the amount of "huh? WTF?" moments when trying to learn it.

I completely agree. I think this sort of thing may be on the horizon for them. The people producing the open movie cannot possibly only use blender, they must use or at least be aware of other apps and blender's shortcomings in comparison.
I think once the interface/workflow is overhauled, then people like us will be able to gain access to all it's features intuitively, rather than bashing our heads against some online documentation.

jin choung
12-26-2007, 11:42 AM
I've seen a lot of the bugs I've reported fixed, especially if I could provide sample scenes. That seems to be the key to getting stuff fixed, and if you want a particular feature, provide particular examples as to why the feature would be useful.

but nothing was addressed before a point release right? nothing was recoded and compiled and sent off specifically for you?

undoubtedly bugs will get addressed on point releases. and if you're reporting bugs, it's more or less likely that your bugs will get addressed.

but the original sentiment was that open source is less than commercial because of a lack of support.

again, my contention is that lack of support is the same as if you are commercial or open source. that is, little to none.

jin

RTSchramm
12-26-2007, 12:19 PM
I have three complaints with blender, the unconventional use of the mouse, how components are selected and the chaotic layout of the properties windows. Until these are addressed, I'll stay with LW.

I can easily switch between, Modo, Silo, Maya, Studio Max because the interfaces are similar in design and function, but Blender is way out there. What were they smoking when they designed the interface?

Rich

IMI
12-26-2007, 12:52 PM
I have three complaints with blender, the unconventional use of the mouse, how components are selected and the chaotic layout of the properties windows. Until these are addressed, I'll stay with LW.

I can easily switch between, Modo, Silo, Maya, Studio Max because the interfaces are similar in design and function, but Blender is way out there. What were they smoking when they designed the interface?

Rich


I always just thought the interface was their own cruel little joke: Here you go, here's this cool app which is going to become a GREAT little app... there's just this one little catch... :D

adamredwoods
12-26-2007, 01:26 PM
Well said everyone!

My 2cents is that I feel the 3D app industry is starting to make its own convention in terms of user interface. It may take a few more years but I must say all apps are starting to head in one direction-- in terms of workflow, interface layout, and device interaction (keyboard and mouse). To venture outside of that, one must have a very good reason.

Look at how Adobe apps are now very, very consistent. Even before Adobe, Macromedia was using the same conventions. Especially with keyboard shortcuts, which to me is the difference from a 'user' and a 'professional'.

Blender is weird, but one can grasp it. My problem is they are still missing some very trivial things to get my workflow working FAST. Assignable keyboard shorcuts is number one for me. 3D apps are heading to 'wert' for basic functions (move, rotate, scale) and even Lightwave manages to group the keyboard 'tyh' which is very handy. What is Blenders??? 'G' for 'get'... and it resets everytime I want to move something, so I have to hit G again to position it. bleh. too many steps, i'm back to lightwave.

Lightwave is still a very good interface. It took time to adjust to its handling-- but once I did (and stopped fighting it), I can now get things done very quickly.


//Adam

Titus
12-26-2007, 01:37 PM
I can easily switch between, Modo, Silo, Maya, Studio Max because the interfaces are similar in design and function, but Blender is way out there. What were they smoking when they designed the interface?

Rich

If you by some reason think Blender has a strange UI and behaviour, try Loq Airou (http://www.quelsolaar.com/loqairou/index.html). It's from the same programmer of Verse, and a trip to use and learn.

Some screenshots:

http://www.quelsolaar.com/loqairou/screens.html

cresshead
12-26-2007, 01:49 PM
btw they ARE working on changing the u.i. in blender there's a production/development blog linked over on cgtalk forums...

Anti-Distinctly
12-27-2007, 04:50 AM
Blender needs to apply envelopes and textures to all parameters. I feel so constricted in it at the moment. Unless you can somehow get all variables in the IPO window but I'm pretty sure you can't...

Steamthrower
12-27-2007, 12:12 PM
btw they ARE working on changing the u.i. in blender there's a production/development blog linked over on cgtalk forums...

Do you happen to have a link? To the post on cgtalk?

Dexter2999
12-27-2007, 12:20 PM
I have three complaints with blender, the unconventional use of the mouse, how components are selected and the chaotic layout of the properties windows. Until these are addressed, I'll stay with LW.

I can easily switch between, Modo, Silo, Maya, Studio Max because the interfaces are similar in design and function, but Blender is way out there. What were they smoking when they designed the interface?

Rich


Could have been worse....they could have developed it for a DVORAK Right Handed Keyboard.

cresshead
12-27-2007, 06:54 PM
Do you happen to have a link? To the post on cgtalk?

you'll find it on the blender section of the forum over on cgtalk

www.cgtalk.com

nr the top..

Roly
12-27-2007, 07:45 PM
Do you happen to have a link? To the post on cgtalk?

No from CGTalk but from the source.

http://www.blender.org/development/current-projects/changes-since-244/

Steamthrower
12-28-2007, 06:54 AM
Thanks! A bunch!

lgolden
12-28-2007, 11:33 AM
inigo07

If you want to know some invisible work that will be done in Blender go to ths link (some nice stuff):

http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/BlenderDev/SundayMeetingAgenda/December_23rd_2007

If newtek give to us a glimpse of what are they doing would be so nice... :help:

Luis
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