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maksei
07-07-2003, 11:30 AM
http://www.digitalproducer.com/2003/07_jul/news/07_07/premierenonmac030707.htm

rafa
07-07-2003, 12:00 PM
Haven´t bothered with Premier since FCP version 1.0 came out.

Beamtracer
07-07-2003, 03:52 PM
Adobe Premiere is inferior to Apple's Final Cut Pro in every way. They just can't compete with Apple, and they know it.

Adobe Mistake #1: Running for cover under the wing of Microsoft maybe nowhere for them to hide, either. As video editing becomes ubiquitous, how long will it take before M$ provides enhanced video tools as part of Windows?

Adobe Mistake #2: Half of Adobe's sales of other products are still on the Mac platform. The exit of Premiere from the Mac will not only infuriate Mac Premiere users. It will also sow the seeds of uncertainty among users of Adobe's other Mac products. What Adobe product will be next?

Another reason why it'll impact on their sales of other Mac products is that some the Adobe bundles will no longer be available for Mac users. You used to be able to get a boxed bundle that included Photoshop, Premiere, After Effects, Illustrator.

Buying all those products separately costs much more than buying the bundle. If Mac users can't get the bundle, it'll lock them out of buying other Adobe products.

Adobe is looking more and more like a dead-end company. They conquered the 2D graphics world. Then they failed to see the 3D era approaching. They have no new ground breaking products that do something so different or compelling to what is already available. They don't even have a very good idea of who their target market is.

I don't think I'd want to buy shares in Adobe!

riki
07-07-2003, 06:20 PM
I also wonder if Apple is making a mistake, buying apps and then making them Mac only.

Also competition is good, and like someone else said, who would want to compete with Apps like FCP?

Beamtracer
07-07-2003, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by riki
who would want to compete with Apps like FCP?
The question is, whether Apple has used its advanced knowledge of the Mac OS to unfairly disadvantage Adobe. I don't think there's any evidence of this.

Otherwise, it's just that Adobe's product is not as good as Apple's. I think this is the case, as most of FCP's advantages are not directly related to the OS. They're features that Adobe should have included in Premiere, but didn't.

Apps like FCP and DVD Studio Pro were nothing before Apple bought them. Apple added new features to them and made them what they are.

Adobe had failed to take advantage of certain Mac OS features. Some of Adobe's products don't even support multiprocessing on the Mac. Unforgivable.

This is what led to discredited reviewers like "journalist" Charlie White publicizing bad benchmarks for the Mac. Adobe's lack of support for multiprocessing had nothing to do with not getting "inside information" about Apple's OS. It's just lazy programming.

We all remember Adobe's comment from a few months ago, that they are now "PC preferred". What garbage! Now, in the Creative Mac interview (linked to in the first post on this thread) Adobe hints that After Effects may go from the Mac if Apple lowers the price of Shake.

As I said, this kind of comment will make Mac users scared to purchase Adobe After Effects. Such threats, or hints of threats, do nothing to benefit Adobe's cause, and just show how inept Adobe is at marketing and public relations.

riki
07-07-2003, 07:33 PM
It's not just an issue that relates to Adobe or the performance of a particular APP. I'm thinking long term. If Apple make their own suite of products, what new startups are going to want to compete in that market. It could potential kill-off any serious competition.

Plus the double wammy, if these Apps are mac only, it has an industry wide effect. It reduces the potential user base.

To push my point. Imagine a hyperthetical, if Apple aquired Lightwave and then made it mac only. What effect would that have on the LW community, on 3rd party plugins, jobs in the industry?

Apple might be makig some kiss arze Apps. I'm not questioning that. But I'm wonderring if it could have a long term negative effect.

riki
07-07-2003, 07:49 PM
BTW here's some screenshots of Photoshop 8

http://www.macmerc.com/photoshop_8/

Ade
07-07-2003, 08:16 PM
Mac only appz seems to be a strategy by apple for a short term. I think it goes like this:
Creating seperatism - buy a great app, make it better, cheaper and kill the windows support....User base established.

Competition fails - i.e Premiere...FCP was always a better app, it did much more for DV than adobe ever did.


Next move for Apple - Buy out SGI and get their Maya app, it sells more on macs anyway. Buyout Adobe and get Photoshop on mac only, or get a similar app and better photoshop.
Buyout Quark and now u have the whole desktop priinting market.

why - cause Adobe slowly is becoming anti-mac with that "pc preferred" stunt they did early this year, there was noneed for it and its been taken down since.

toby
07-07-2003, 08:59 PM
"Apple might be makig some kiss arze Apps. I'm not questioning that. But I'm wondering if it could have a long term negative effect."

At worst it would be like MS's hold on word processing - which doesn't worry me since Apple tries to sell products by making them good, instead of out-marketing everyone

"if Apple aquired Lightwave and then made it mac only. What effect would that have on the LW community, on 3rd party plugins, jobs in the industry"

I don't think they'd try to make it mac-only in a case like this because of the already-large customer base - it's way bigger than FCP was, right? I hadn't even heard of fcp or shake til apple bought them

Ade
07-07-2003, 09:04 PM
FCP market is massive... might be as large or larger than LW..

toby
07-07-2003, 09:08 PM
so did they cut off thousands of pc users?

riki
07-07-2003, 09:10 PM
I'm not saying that they would make it Mac only. You missed the whole point of what I'm trying to say. I was just a hyperthetical example, to question what effect does it have when they make other APPs Mac only.

Ade
07-07-2003, 09:15 PM
What Apple doesnt realise is the PC philosophy -
PC ppl think like this, I don't care if its not the same as an Apple, its close enough, and thats enough for me. This goes for the hardware and software side.


Until Apple releases a sub $3K mac that is as powerful as the mid range macs now, they cant simply believe pc ppl will move to mac for a certain app.

toby
07-07-2003, 09:17 PM
ok, I thought the 'buying LW' was the only hypothetical -

js33
07-07-2003, 09:37 PM
The entire Adobe Video collection is now PC only. Mac users can still buy Photoshop, AE and Illustrator seperately but everything else is PC only. Premiere Pro, EncoreDVD, Audition etc...

Adobe Premiere® Pro
Adobe After Effects® Standard (Standard edition only)
Adobe Encore™ DVD
Adobe Audition™

Adobe Video Collection Professional includes:
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe After Effects Professional
Adobe Encore DVD
Adobe Audition
Adobe Photoshop®

Say what you will about Premiere (I don't use it either or any NLE for that matter) but this clearly can't be good for Mac users to have less choice just because Apple decides to buy there own software. Basically Apples policy is we have to have all the apps to force people to buy our overpriced hardware. Thats the only way we can sell it. I think as others have said it will only backfire on them in the end.

Cheers,
JS

Ade
07-07-2003, 09:44 PM
True - refer to my last post...

toby
07-07-2003, 09:52 PM
or you could look at it this way, unless you love to hate mac - If they didn't make FCP 'mac-only', Adobe would be scerewed on PC as well, or maybe FCP wouldn't be what it is without Mac, I don't know. But before FCP, what "choice" did Mac users have anyway? It was either Adobe or...Quicktime Pro...

Also, DVD Studio pro came out before Adobe had any dvd software... could it be they've been taking their mac sales for granted?

It's no ones 'fault' that FCP is pushing out Premiere - that kind of thing happens all the time

Ade
07-07-2003, 09:55 PM
We had Avid before...
I wonder how toaster does in all this?

Beamtracer
07-08-2003, 03:32 AM
Newtek's Toaster competes in a different market to Final Cut Pro. FCP is aiming at the high-end broadcast and film production.

Toaster comes with various hardware add-ons that make it like a low-cost live TV studio. It does live switching between cameras and live effects. I get the impression they're marketing Toaster towards tiny regional TV stations and churches.

Nonetheless, I'd say that FCP has a major influence on the way Toaster is developed and marketed (and the niches it pursues).

There were lots of Non-Linear-Editing packages before FCP.

Apart from Toaster, there was (or is)..

Avid (Began on Mac, made the mistake of going Windows, now returning to Mac)
Media 100 (always Mac-only)
Lightworks (used to be big in film production)

...and of course the departing Premiere. There were a few more editing systems than these, but the others aren't worth mentioning.

Final Cut Pro changed things in a number of ways...
*First broadcast quality NLE priced so the general public can afford it
*Offered a choice of video cards
*Removed the artificial distinction between "online" and "offline" editing.

I think it was Macromedia who started FCP. Yes, there was a Windows version. I wonder if Apple secretly keeps the Windows version going as part of the Marklar project? Probably not. Microsoft is rumored to be planning a take-over of Macromedia.

If there's one company that would probably love to be taken over by Apple, it's not SGI or Maya. It's Luxology. They seem to want Apple to notice them. They have no product out yet, so the Windows crowd couldn't get upset if the Windows version was axed.

Red_Oddity
07-08-2003, 04:07 AM
Errrmmm...guys, before you start yapping bs, get your facts straight first okay...

Ade : 'Next move for Apple - Buy out SGI and get their Maya app, it sells more on macs anyway.'

Sells more on the Mac? Puhlease, heres' a quote :
Alias/Wavefront has reported that 25 percent of all commercial units of Maya are now sold for the Mac OS X platform in North America and 20 percent globally. The company says this shows that Maya is the leading 3D animation software package on the Mac.

I can't really conclude Maya having been sold on the Mac more than on the x86/Irix/Unix platforms from this...

Ade : PC ppl think like this, I don't care if its not the same as an Apple, its close enough, and thats enough for me. This goes for the hardware and software side.

What a childish remark, just because Mac OS doesn't cut it for some people (like me) doesn't mean we settle for inferiour hardware and software...
I'm glad my OS isn't looking like a friggin candy shop that's been designed by Marry Poppins on Acid, i like my OS hidden and neutral (and i like to be able to just rip it apart and ditch whatever i don't like)

Sure, i switched from PowerAnimator and SoftImage to the Mac just to get my hands on that high-end 3d app Infini-D running on a mind blowing Ati Rage with Quicktime 3D...wow...what ever did i do before that?


Beamtracer : Media 100 (always Mac-only)

I'm not sure you mean that it was Mac only or that you still think it's Mac only, as you probably must know by now the Media 100 844/X is the realtime(4tracks) editor for the x86...


But all in all, it is undisputed that FCP just is the best editing software for the Mac (heavy competitor in my opinion for Avid)
I for one gave up on that Adobe editor farce after version 4 (what a hopeless ly unstable, useless, unusable piece of crap)

But, i think it is a really bad move by Apple to kill of all competitors (even the smaller companies get forced to quit on that platform because Apple decided they would make all the smaller apps aswell with their i-series of software)

I'm still amazed that Apple is still standing (the've actually never given competitors much chance, not on the hardware side and now on the software side aswell)

Ade
07-08-2003, 04:24 AM
Its funny how some pc ppl refer to OSX as candy, but as soon as MS copies this (xp lunar) they all of a sudden love it, if u see the new longhorn pics it shows they now are copying the genie effects as well as zoom dock.

As a whole Maya reps said they sold more OSX seats than windows last year. Sure they make Maya for other *nix systems but overall thats what i read.

PC ppl stay with CAD and 3Ds its just how it is... Or how it is over here...

Mac will always be around, and its getting stronger every year, buying out these great appz is good, not only does apple make the apps easier to use, they make them cheaper and more popular.
Same cant be said for any MS apps..Wait didnt it take like 5 years for MS to update XSI which noone cares about anymore?
Ohh wait isnt XSI still over 9K to buy?

Apple is simply in it for positive Video/Audio domination, if anyone had to do it I rather it Apple, atleast their thoroughbred is arts...

Matt
07-08-2003, 06:26 AM
Apple finally realised (a while ago) that in order to win users over from Windows, nicely designed computer boxes weren't enough, they needed the software too.

In the past (and even today) a lot of products ported over to the for Mac were inferior to their Windows counterparts, because the main user base was Windows, upgrades always came out first for Windows too.

I reckon this is why most of the 'i' apps written by Apple were/are free, and why they are really making their software appealing, easy to use and packed with features.

As if to say hey! our computers look ace and the software is much better too!

I wouldn't be at all suprised if Apple aren't working on more major applications that will steal the thunder of some major software players.

Just my thoughts . . .

Matt

Lightwolf
07-08-2003, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by toby
I hadn't even heard of fcp or shake til apple bought them
Well fcp was created by the original Premiere programmer, after he left Adobe. It was first developed by Macromedia but never reached the market until Apple bought it. Hm, thinking of NT and Lux....
..nevermind...
Nonetheless it looks like Adobe have made a big, big step forward with the current release, the first version of Premiere that could really be called pro.
Cheers,
Mike

Ade
07-08-2003, 07:31 AM
No disrespect to Red, but even if apple created the best looking mac withthe best apps (kinda already do), pc ppl will still not buy a mac because of one thing - PRICE...


As I said before many say, ohh well im just getting into 3D i might aswell buy something cheap, sure the box is ugly but its almost the same...

Lightwolf
07-08-2003, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Avid (Began on Mac, made the mistake of going Windows, now returning to Mac)
Media 100 (always Mac-only)
Lightworks (used to be big in film production)

...and of course the departing Premiere. There were a few more editing systems than these, but the others aren't worth mentioning.
Well, the current high end Media 100 system:
Windows
discreet edit (unfortunately dead now)
Windows
discreet smoke et al.
SGI
Jaleo
SGI
pinnacle liquid series (usded to be fast blue, purple etc.)
Windows
avid | ds
Windows
quantel eq/iq
Windows based
(thos are the systems we use or compete with...)
+ tons of lower / medium range apps like Vegas Video, SpeedRazor, pinnacle Edition...
Plenty of options on the PC side. I guess this would change if M$ would buy out, let's say Avid, and release DS for $1000 :)
Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
07-08-2003, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by Ade
Same cant be said for any MS apps..Wait didnt it take like 5 years for MS to update XSI which noone cares about anymore?
Ohh wait isnt XSI still over 9K to buy?

Well, I'm not really sure what decisions made back then are by the MS management or the softimage management. Maya took ages as well to get out of the door...
XSI wasn't an update either, it was a complete re-write from the ground up, including a new philisophy on the architecture. Which is why it still seems to be the leading app technologically (and probably the most wanted 3D app... if you can afford it).
Cheers,
Mike

Red_Oddity
07-08-2003, 07:38 AM
Hmmm...XSI from Microsoft? i think you're wrong there my friend...

XSI didn't exist when MS owned SoftImage, only when they sold SoftImage over to Avid did it take a couple of years for XSI to come around (and SoftImage 3.8 is still a very good piece of software mind you)
Microsoft does own 9.4% of Avid though through stocks and bonds...

As for the Maya sales, that's a bit of an odd ball, you can look atin different ways, just depends on how you read their reports.

Alias now sells 25% seats of Maya for the Mac OSX platform opposed to other platforms, but it has been around for quite some time, and it has sold a lot of copies before it even came to the Mac...So sales might be higher now because, well, most 3D companies already own Maya, as opposed to Mac users who only now have access to a somewhat decent build for OSX (and it still is the heavilly lacking Complete version, not even Unlimited)


on a side note, i never understood why MS went the candybar road aswell with their interface design (it was ugly before...well, it got even uglier...thank god for the classic setting)
I hate that lunar setting (especially the blue/green one...burns my retina...)

Lightwolf
07-08-2003, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by Ade
As I said before many say, ohh well im just getting into 3D i might aswell buy something cheap, sure the box is ugly but its almost the same...
Well, currently for me it is:
Well, I pay half the price and get twice the performance... I'll go for the PC. If that changes, I might switch.
If I want designer stuff, I go and buy some clothes or furniture ;) I even have my current PC in one of those 19" industrial cases to make it look more like a tough work horse :)
Cheers,
19" Mike

Red_Oddity
07-08-2003, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by Ade
No disrespect to Red, but even if apple created the best looking mac withthe best apps (kinda already do), pc ppl will still not buy a mac because of one thing - PRICE...


As I said before many say, ohh well im just getting into 3D i might aswell buy something cheap, sure the box is ugly but its almost the same...

Sorry, but a cheap PC won't do 3D that well either...well it might do it as well as a Mac (sorry, but it is true, my 3D Mac is still a heap of sh!te compared to my 3D PC with the same performance (but with a bit less hefty price tag, about 1/3rd), but for some serious 3D machines you're still paying a lot (good video card (not those gaming cards that Apple sells as professional top of the line...a Ti4600 or a FX5600 is not a pro card mr. Jobs...Fire GL, Quadro FX and Wildcats are pro cards...), memory, 2GB or more please, stable Mobo with decend chipset and offcourse a Xeon or equavilant from AMD, not some cheap ***** Celeron or Duron...)

I could go on on this rediquolous debate about PCs or Macs being better...but the entire reason there are different machines and OSs is because there's a lot of different people...
I happen to work better on a PC, eventhough half my work is done on Mac.


on a side note...
All this crap some users keep dragging up is outdated and are excuses that might have been valid back when we ran Win95 or NT 3.0 (or OS 9.2, depending on what you used)...but those days are over and the business has not stood still...Just do some research before you start bashing something again...

Johnny
07-08-2003, 07:55 AM
I don't think that there have been any Apple acquisitions that have become Mac only.. I'd heard that Shake has Mac-specific features...

also don't think Apple has much of a choice BUT to release its own apps: video, audio, etc..

what seems to be happening with some software publishers (m$? Adobe? others?) is that they schlep half-baked versions over to the Mac side, and often release Mac versions which aren't optimized for Mac OS/G4, making the Mac look like an also-ran, unprofessional platform.

Apple can either sit there and allow its base to say "gee..the Mac version of this program stinks," or, they can get busy and create their own offerings which equal or best the competition's.

Adobe has created some great software, but IMO has also released a few stinkbombs, too, and their il-conceived 'PC preferred' web announcement sealed it for me in terms of what their true intentions are.

they can pound sand..

J

Ade
07-08-2003, 08:43 AM
In the end we are all lightwavers...

Wish Amiga was still around in a serious fashion.

Lightwolf
07-08-2003, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Ade
In the end we are all lightwavers...

Wish Amiga was still around in a serious fashion.
Hehe :) how true...
Actually, I know one person that had a chance to play with the G5 and said "...I am beginning to feel the great pangs of Amiga-longing eveporate...". I could use some of thet feeling too ;)
It only took the other co's 15 years or so :)
Cheers,
Mike

toby
07-08-2003, 02:37 PM
"All this crap some users keep dragging up is outdated and are excuses that might have been valid back when we ran Win95 or NT 3.0"

Funny, you guys were saying the same thing way back then, back when pc's had no speed advantage - "Now that we have Win95..."

Will somebody please tell me what system is less stable than windows?

toby
07-08-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by Lightwolf

If I want designer stuff, I go and buy some clothes or furniture I even have my current PC in one of those 19" industrial cases to make it look more like a tough work horse

This is a point I've been wanting to make for a long time.

PC-ers think that PC's are 'cool' and that Mac's are 'sissy'.

Don't get me wrong, it's a matter of opinion, which everyone is absolutely entitled to.

What bothers me is all the attacks on any mac weakness, the attempts to 'belittle' the platform and any evidence to it's strengths, and excuses made for any pc's weakness - just to support this feeling that 'my computer is the best' - are you guys insecure or something? Please don't vent it here.

robewil
07-08-2003, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by toby
What bothers me is all the attacks on any mac weakness, the attempts to 'belittle' the platform and any evidence to it's strengths, and excuses made for any pc's weakness - just to support this feeling that 'my computer is the best' - are you guys insecure or something? Please don't vent it here.
This is so funny to me because this is what I have often accused of Mac zealots.

toby
07-08-2003, 03:57 PM
yes I have seen some unprovoked comments by mac people but please remember which forum we're in.

Ade
07-08-2003, 08:48 PM
PC ppl dont realise they need macintosh.
Otherwise where would MS get their newer ideas for their next updates?

Ade
07-08-2003, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by toby
"All this crap some users keep dragging up is outdated and are excuses that might have been valid back when we ran Win95 or NT 3.0"

Funny, you guys were saying the same thing way back then, back when pc's had no speed advantage - "Now that we have Win95..."

Will somebody please tell me what system is less stable than windows?

Windows RG (http://www.deanliou.com/WinRG/WinRG.htm) would have to be upthere with the best of MS OS'es... PC ppl need to understand there is a symbiosis relationship that they need macintosh...Otherwise they wouldnt get any new windows updates...

Beamtracer
07-08-2003, 11:00 PM
For those not familiar with Avid, they have been the biggest makers of editing systems for broadcast and film. They own Softimage (XSI). They own Digidesign (Protools audio). Their two major shareholders are 1. Microsoft, 2. Intel.

Final Cut Pro is decimating Avid's market.

If you want to buy an Avid Symphony editing system it'll cost you well over US$100,000. FCP hit the market at a fraction of the cost, with better quality pictures and more features.

Avid must be worried. Their yearly financial statements are in the red. Their editing systems (despite the price) run at a financial loss because they don't have enough unit sales. Softimage/XSI runs at a loss. Their only profitable division is Digidesign, which makes money on its Protools audio software. Protools is keeping the rest of the company afloat.

It'll be interesting to see what Adobe does with Premiere Pro. As a "completely rewritten" product you'd expect that it would be good. But the fact that they vacated the Mac indicates that Premiere Pro will still not be able to compete with FCP.

Mac users flocked to FCP because it's a better product. If Premiere Pro was released on the Mac, people would buy it if it was better than FCP. Adobe's decision to hide under the wing of Microsoft is an admission that their new product will not be better than FCP.

Lightwolf
07-09-2003, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Adobe's decision to hide under the wing of Microsoft is an admission that their new product will not be better than FCP.
Not neccesarily (?spelling). It might even be a superior product, but for 10% of sales might not be worth it to port over to a completely different platform. Right now with Premiere Pro, Adobe has the advantage that Apple has with fcp, they can focus on one platform and optimize for that. (which is good, sine Adobe products tend to be sloooow, at least on windows).
I guess Apple users will prefer to buy an Apple product over an Adobe product if it offrs similar features for a similar price, so Adobe would have a hard time competing against fcp. As I said before, Apples decision to compete on the software side as well doesn't make the platform more attractive for third party developers on the same market...
Cheers,
Mike

Red_Oddity
07-09-2003, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by toby
Funny, you guys were saying the same thing way back then, back when pc's had no speed advantage - "Now that we have Win95..."

Will somebody please tell me what system is less stable than windows?

Hmm...about the 95 thing i'm not sure...i didn't like it much (way too unstable, but not as unstable as many people will wwant to make you believe)

As for a system less stable than windows...sorry to tell, but right now it's my dual 1.42GHz G4 with OS-X 10.2.6...today i'm sending it back to the store as it is impossible to work on it (i always get the buggy Macs me thinks...honest...they always crash around me...)

But, i think i found the culprit...appearantly a lot of Mac users complained the new Macs where making too much noise, so they lowered the fan speeds...resulting in a very very hot Mac (in the bad sence of the word)...hot enough that i can bend CD-Rs that have been in there for half an hour or so (seriously)...
So much for proffesionalism on the dutch Mac market...they rather have silent Macs than stable ones :confused: ...

As for Windows needing Apple...that's a two sided coin...it goes in both directions...
As long as they keep stealing eachothers best ideas we're happy...

Ade
07-09-2003, 04:58 AM
DP 1.42 used a copper heat sync, very trendy and very cool temperature wise. We have 5 of them here with no downtime whatso ever. The cmpaq Evo W6000 xenon units we have here are constantly breaking down at $7K a pop AUS. You order **** u get ****.

Red_Oddity
07-09-2003, 05:32 AM
Yup, Apple Holland does sell crap (this is the third Mac that is unstable...2 dual 800s and 1 dual 1.42GHz...we ordered ****...we got ****...

Cool, we got a W8000 aswell, but the only thing that sucks about that machine is that crap Matrox card they put in there, doesn't crash though (it does all of my rendering...most stuff the Macs shoke on i do on that one)...So much money, and still no decent graphics card...shame on you Compaq (and for such a expensive compu)...

Ahwell...maybe it's just something that passes over from the user to the computers (i don't like Macs, so they punish me by crashing constantly :D ...i like PCs, so they behave...Probably the otherway around for you (and one of my co-workers...who never has any problems with his Mac...))

Johnny
07-09-2003, 04:05 PM
Just got back from the Apple Store in Chicago with a copy of FCP...still in the shrink wrap..

does anyone know whether FCP can import or open projects created with AE 5? I don't expect all the effects to come over (tho it would be nice) just the transitions and opacity.

if not, I guess that's how I'll begin learning FC!

J

Brian Peterson
07-09-2003, 09:07 PM
Adobe's decision to hide under the wing of Microsoft is an admission that their new product will not be better than FCP.

I love it when Mac-heads are looking for ways to justify the stupidity of Apple. There isn't any admission in Adobe's decision to go pc only that PP will be anything less than FCP, it's an admission that they can't make the $$$s selling on the PC platform.

An economic question for ya: You spend millions of dollars in develpment, programing and marketing. You have a decision to make, who do you sell it to. Let's make this easy with a nice low number like 100 people. One market consists of 2.6 people. The second Market consists of 5.3 people. The 3rd market consists of 90 people. Who potentially can refund your costs the fastest and sell the most product to? 2.6 or Apple is the wrong answer!

I costs money to do anything in any industry and I wouldn't be surprised it costs a cool mill to port a program like Premiere over to the Mac. In these pathetic economic times spending millions to support a platform that's potential sales is quickly sinking below the muck of bad corporate decisions is suicide. Of course Adobe is bailing on the Mac. The Mac is quickly becoming as close a platform as a Silicon Graphics machine.

Apple has pissed away all the market they had, thru the continued stupidity of considering themselves a hardware manufacturer and not giving the consumer a choice. The #1 complaint I hear from people as to why they don't buy Macs, isn't $$ that's 2, it's lack of choice. Gamers love their boxes, the neon craze was created by lan parties, try that with a new G5. WE Mac's you have freedom, you can't choose your processor, except for their processors. My computers are built to what they will be used for so some have Pentiums, while other boxes have Athalons... My Mac, I didn't have a choice. With Mac I have 4 hard drives consuming more space combined with the Mac Box, in their firewire boxes than the 16 drive pc case for my T2 which has no external boxes. Try installing 16 drives into a G5... Let alone 3!

People want choices, Apple doesn't give choices, it's Steve Jobs choice or no choice... And then they want outrageous amounts of money for slow and old technology! Bah.... Consumers want a choice, it's that simple and they want a decent price with that choice. And Apple, well they're primodonnas, you take what we want to give you or you go elsewhere. Well that is exactly what the market has decided to do, go elsewhere to the tune of 97.4% of the market.

Corporate stupidity killed the Amiga, I have a feeling that the Mac will soon be enjoying the same nortoriety. Or they are going to be the next Silicon Graphics, no third party support, closed system, this time thru attrition and not choice and struggling financially. Same result either way.

Ade
07-09-2003, 09:23 PM
Stupidity of Apple?
Geese...
many of us designers dont give a damn **** on what parts go into our comps as long as it works in the end, I hate all these tchie nerds all of a sudden downloading photoshop from kazaa and calling themselves designers.
Designers just want to design and not trouble shoot technical issues like what ram goes with what mobo goes with what cpu....
BUT....

To make ppl who feel they need a big choise happy I did propose an idea of imagine when u bought a mac you could choose a dual motorola G4 or a 970 g5?
The G4 being $600 cheaper in every field, but then u say to yourself motorola has failed to keep up or make it cheaper..
You see you may not be a mac user thus do not understand the frustration of not getting certain apps due to MS bullying..
Apple made FCP because they said they must cease a market that was practically heading in an expensive and niche' field.
What Apple has done for DV, and for the pc side is something MS nor Adobe have done in 10 years.
If Adobe feels the need to not take a blow because their app isnt that good, its just obvious they cant compete. Adobe lately HAS become bloated and featureless, Illustrator is a testimate to that, and Photoshop has not bought any new revolutions lately..
Healthy companies like Macromedia are more lively as well as maxxon.

Pure and simple Adobe with that "pc preferred" campaign obviously shows they are in it just for the money and influenced to whoever can pursuade them more.

Brian Peterson
07-09-2003, 10:11 PM
Edited to insert Ade's original post which was heavily edited after I responded:

Original post:

Stupidity of Apple?
Geese...
You see you may not be a mac user thus do not understand the frustration of not getting certain apps due to MS bullying..
Apple made FCP because they said they must cease a market that was practically heading in an expensive and niche' field.
What Apple has done for DV, and for the pc side is something MS nor Adobe have done in 10 years.
If Adobe feels the need to not take a blow because their app isnt that good, its just obvious they cant compete. Adobe lately HAS become bloated and featureless, Illustrator is a testimate to that, and Photoshop has not bought any new revolutions lately..
Healthy companies like Macromedia are more lively as well as maxxon.

Pure and simple Adobe with that "pc preferred" campaign obviously shows they are in it just for the money and influenced to whoever can pursuade them more.[/B]

Start of my original response:

[i]Originally posted by Ade
Stupidity of Apple?
Geese...


Yes, that's what I say about Apple, Geese!

Heck with these quote boxes...

>You see you may not be a mac user thus do not understand the frustration of not getting certain apps due to MS bullying..

Oh, poor picked on Apple. BTW, go back and re-read my original post, I indicated I owned a G4, it's a dual 1.2 system, so I fully understand lack of software. But then I understand how business works and why corporations would rather develop software and sell millions instead of selling a few hundred thousand units to a dieing fromat.

Sorry Ade, Apple handed Bill the market on a silver platter. And frankly if it wasn't for Bill's need of a semi competitive market, Apple would years ago have joined Amiga in the grave. Steve's biggest mistake was thumbing his nose at the gammers and saying he didn't need them. Gamers have been the driving force behind the pc's increased speed and abilities. They pushed the pc into the graphical world, which apple at one time excelled in. They are the first to adopt a new faster technology for their hobby and while I've not seen any official numbers on it, I would be willing to bet that outside of the internet they are the major purchasers of high end systems in the pc world. Much of Apple's latest technology like video cards stems directly from what has been developed on the PC side for gammers.

>Apple made FCP because they said they must cease a market that was practically heading in an expensive and niche' field.

ROTHLMAO! Obviously you never heard of Newtek and the Toaster/Flyer, the T2 and soon T3.... or have you? :D They bought FCP because they saw Avid bailing, they saw their sales flagging and they saw software developers bailing to the PC platform. They had to do something and their choice was to turn the Mac into a niche product more so than it was. And then they went out and tried to find enough people to jump off their cliff to hold onto 3% of ... oh wait 2.6% and shrinking of the market! :o

>What Apple has done for DV, and for the pc side is something MS nor Adobe have done in 10 years.

And what did they do for DV? Lets see... nothing! They don't even own the codec with which they manipulate DV in FCP, without Sorenson and their intellectual property FCP would be dead. They didn't develope DV, that was created and owned by Japanesse companies like Sony, Panasonic etc. And who cares about DV? Once it exits my master tapes I want uncompressed, real time editing ability at an affordable rate... make mine Newtek T3 :cool: I've owned 2 versions of FCP, 2 & 3, they sucked compared to the T2!

>If Adobe feels the need to not take a blow because their app isnt that good, its just obvious they cant compete.

Let's see 90% of the market or 2.6% of the market. Thankfully you aren't in control of Adobe, or they would be in Apples shape, sinking like the Titanic. I don't know about you but I'd rather sell several million units of something than a 150,000 units! But then what do you expect from Mac lovers.


>Adobe lately HAS become bloated and featureless, Illustrator is a testimate to that, and Photoshop has not bought any new revolutions lately.

LOL! yah whatever you say. Photoshop rules the market, Illustrator rules the market and right now there isn't any competitors out there threatening their domminance. They have less competiton than Micro$haft, who is crapping their pants over Linux right now.

>Pure and simple Adobe with that "pc preferred" campaign obviously shows they are in it just for the money and influenced to whoever can pursuade them more.

ROTFLMAO! Too funny, too funny. '"But I'm an Artist" he said as he starved to death...' Dude, I don't know about you, but I'm in it for the money! So are 99.9% of the corporations out there, they follow the money and the money is in the number of potential consumers you can sell to. Once again, Adobe can sell to the majority of 90% or they can sell to the niche Mac-heads who consist of a whopping 2.6% of the market. Gee knock me over the head and color me green, Adobe went after the money, well what a surprise! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Ade
07-09-2003, 10:14 PM
Its funny how newbies come here and state dumb *** remarks like apple has 2% market, ohh geese did it drop 6% over night?
What did firewire do for DV? Ohh just enough to make video cameras affordable in ways to transfer data.. When I was into DV 8 years ago it was extremely expensive, DTS setups costed over $15,000aus, I can now buy a firewire mac with FCP for half that and can do far more with fcp.
BUT as you have started to become personal and abusive I will not be bothered answering anymore of your statements. This is a mac section, there is a pc section over there, I think below us?
Newbies who talk like that dont get any respect and might as well de-register.

toby
07-09-2003, 10:18 PM
Welcome, newbie!

you must be new here otherwise you'd know that we're really freakin' fed up with childish platform bickering.

We don't care about your gamers boxes, 16 hard drives or all the 'choices' that you geeks want.

Yes of course Adobe dropped Premeire on the Mac for financial reasons, obviously projected sales don't justify the expenses. But they did seem to justify the expense until FCP came along.

Brian Peterson
07-09-2003, 10:54 PM
Hey there Toby,

Been here a long time as a lurker. Unfortunately after reading this thread I couldn't resist setting a few posters strait. Evidently since one of them tends to rewrite his posts every 2 minutes I've struck a nerve. And by the way I'm not a gamer I'm a video producer who would love to see the VT line on OS X but not a Mac. But that isn't going to happen until Apple divorces itself from the slow and crappy hardware they insist on overcharging for.

So please excuse me while I vent. :)


But they did seem to justify the expense until FCP came along.

I hate to disagree but it was not until FCP came along, Premier has existed side by side with FCP thru 2 builds of FCP. In that time Apple has lost sever amounts of market share. A major impact, I'm sure on their decisions. And yes Ade, going from 15% of the market to less than 3%, in two years is overnight in an industry like this. That is going from millions of units to hundreds of thousands!

The Apple market can evidently barely support 4 now 3 competitors on the platform, FCP, Media 100, Avid and Adobe... While the PC market is rocking and rolling with Newtek, Canopus, Adobe, Matrox, AVid, Vegas, DPS, Panasonic, Global Streams and I'm sure I'm missing even more. Competition is healthy, it leads to lower prices and greater abilities. Apple seems to ignore their competition.

Newbies who talk like that dont get any respect and might as well de-register.

Ah, sure I'd suggest cleaning up your language first before taking me to task, you seem to need to use censored words a little too much.
and state dumb *** remarks

Ade
07-09-2003, 11:00 PM
One thing u must understand is first we are lightwavers...then comes what ever platform u use... So time to get over it.

toby
07-09-2003, 11:15 PM
"Premier has existed side by side with FCP thru 2 builds of FCP."

Surely that was because there was no expensive rewrite - ? Competition from FCP was surely a factor in their decision, (as well as projected sales, and apparently some sour grapes) Premeire was the choice for 'pro-sumers' on the mac before fcp, they wouldn't just drop thousands of customers just because sales of new Macs has gone down.

Brian Peterson
07-09-2003, 11:17 PM
then comes what ever platform u use... So time to get over it

:confused: Is that why you are defending the platform so stringently and bashing Adobe for being "they are in it just for the money"? Whatever you say.

Brian Peterson
07-09-2003, 11:46 PM
they wouldn't just drop thousands of customers just because sales of new Macs has gone down.

No, they would drop them because ROI wasn't worth it. (return on investment) I seriously doubt that sour grapes entered into it. Adobe answers to shareholders and their stock price, you just don't penalize your shareholders over sour grapes if there is profit to be made. Oh it can happen and has, but with the precarious position the stock market and economy has been in the last few years, no company is throwing away bottom line generating revenue over such things! Ultimately the only thing that can justify Adobe abandoning the Mac platform is lack of ROI and I believe that can ultimately be attributed to the shrinking market share of Apple. I also believe that it is a strong indication that Adobe does not see a recovery of market share with the advent of the G5. 2 products now which will not be issued on the Mac platform. For Adobe, that speaks volumes. I remember when their excuse for the lack of performance of Illustrator and Photoshop on the PC was, the operating system sucks, buy a mac for performance, basically... And now they are designing Photoshop to prefer an Athalon.

As far as I can tell Photoshop 8 will be offered on the Mac, however with the latest decisions Adobe has come out with, I can for the first time see the day when it won't come out with a new version for the Mac... When that day comes, be very afraid.

hcoat
07-10-2003, 12:08 AM
Brian Peterson,

I'm trying to figure out why you care about programs like T2-3, FCP, AP, after viewing seeing some of your demo reels for the videos that you produce, (not bad) but you could save alot of money and get the same result using roxio videowave or something like that. It seems I am always hearing how apple will be dead in 5 or 10 years but they never seem to die. If adobe saw mac as to small of market then why not drop all apps at once, I think it because they're in it for the money and there is still money to made. If they saw macs as dieing breed they could finish macs off force everyone to move pc, but since they see apple taking the market back all they can do is push back alittle.

toby
07-10-2003, 12:26 AM
I don't think Adobe believes the Mac is a dying platform any more than IBM does. They haven't mentioned this shrinking market share in any of the articles on this subject, which I'm sure they realize will turn around with the G5.

Of course the 'roi' is the major factor, but FCP has had a big effect on Premieres' sales on the mac. Half of LW sales were on the Mac last year, if Adobe can't achieve a similar result, it doesn't prove that the Mac is dying or unprofitable.

Johnny
07-10-2003, 06:17 AM
It also seems that hardly a day or two pass without an announcement of some piece of software or hardware 'coming to OSX'. If you thought a platform were sinking beneath the waves, why bother developing for it?

J

mrpg
07-13-2003, 10:09 PM
whoa.. a bunch of bias people in here.. its so obvious.. you're all so defensive in your arguements.

Me i don't particularly prefer mac over pc or over windows. I would like be proficient on both.. I would like that choice. I usually decide on my needs and pick whats best for me. There is such competition in this field now that money management and staying up with new technology is very important, recent years i've seen alot of companies drop both mac and windows going to linux based pc workstations and servers.. on both sides. General business and cg industry. Going pc makes sense because you DO GET QUALITY hardware at a generally cheaper price affording you the option of short hardware cycle spans.. enabling you to keep up with the riduculous pace at which technology advances. And for whats becoming available and the focus being put on graphics now its only the beginning.
Second, from first hand knowledge, running linux the company i work for was able to retain near 100% of the alotted budget on OS/related maintenance and licenses of previous years.. and at the end of the year that adds up. The bigger studios are at doing it, Dreamworks created sinbad entirelly in linux environment, ILM, Walt Disney, BlueSky and yes even Pixar :) to name some of the more well known cg shops

Say what you want.. Apple DELIVERS GOOD product.. but still employs shadey business strategy to suite their agenda, which is to not only be ontop of the market of their respective big money products but to aslo STAY THERE. Whats clear to apple but not clear to you all I think is that haivng dominant software doesn't leave them in safe place, we've seen this in the past. What this means is for them to more securely retain their place "ontop" of the the markets their strong in by closing the room available to competition. Buying up companies improving and advancing them and making them MAC only. One could assume this would have to effect of pulling users to exclusively to apple for hardware and software. Will the next versions of shake be available for linux?? Are studios using pc's going to get forced into making that call? They had to for FCP and Logic Audio, wether in favor of apple or not the point is the decision was forced in a kind of fsck you attitude. I fear the only thing keeping MAC from making all its software mac only is the fact that mac hardware as a very smalll percentage of the computer market.. if i'm not mistaken that is around 3 or 4%. Strategically that would not be a wise move... NOT YET...

Don't get me wrong I think apple has been the most aggressive software company today interms of advancements.. I'm really impressed purely from technical standpoint. If I get could any one of the companies I've come across in my travels to shell out for a few mac workstations here and there I would have. Being a fan of linux for obvious reasons and seeing its potential I'm glad to see apple with its ear to the linux stomping grounds. I need not discuess the marraige with jaguar or other software such as rendezvous known to use opensource people as ZeroConfig, etc.. etc blah blah :)

That leads me to the comment made about geeks thinking they're artist.. and artist not caring about the technical side of things. A good artist I would hope knows their tools inside out.. and most times the great artists do and are often on the frontline in helping advance the tools they use. Perfect exampel the newtek geeks :). In the case of cg "computer graphics" that would becomputer tech, which ecompasses alot of things one should probably be aware of.

PS: Sorry for the long draw out novel :)

Beamtracer
07-14-2003, 12:37 AM
I think Brian (above) just enjoys stiring the pot, rattling the cage to see if you bite. Maybe he also likes to poke sticks through fences to make the dogs bark. There must not be a lot happening in River City.

By the way... Apple's market share is growing. Also, you should draw a distinction between the number of Apple users, and the monthly sales figures for new machines.

Apple's G4 PowerMac sales dived over the last couple of years, probably due to Motorola's troubles on the processor front. However, survey's have shown that while many Mac users have not bought a new Mac recently, they also haven't gone to the Windows platform either.

This means there is a lot of pent-up demand. Witness the G5. That pent-up demand is now being translated into G5 sales. There is already a long waiting list. Some dealers say you'll have to wait until September or October for a G5, as their waiting list is so long.

I wouldn't call that a falling market share.

Brian Peterson
07-14-2003, 08:54 AM
Beamtracer typed:

I think Brian (above) just enjoys stiring the pot, rattling the cage to see if you bite. Maybe he also likes to poke sticks through fences to make the dogs bark. There must not be a lot happening in River City.

So Beamtracer, I'm curious, do you actually even work for a living or do you sit there typing all your rants full time? Your post count is way ahead of mine with the number of continous rants you produce... I had let this thread drop, arguing with people who have blinders on gets boring after a while, but since you just had to rant about me...

I'll tell you exactly why I argue about Apple, it's because frankly they piss me off. I love OS X even with it's memory problems, but I can't justify their prices for outdated, slow hardware. I also see them failing, they almost did once no matter what many here want to think, but the white knight known as Microsoft no longer needs them as badly as they once did, and when that happens a lot of the innovation in the computer wold will die and Micro$haft will be free to crap all over the place. So excuse me while I take potshots at a company and community thaty hasblinders on.

2 to 3 months to get their G5... hmmm, yah whatever. I would also be willing to bet that that is a staged Apple stunt. Personally I just finished swapping my third photography studio over to all pcs from being all Mac, with 2 more bids out there to swap additional studios over.

But ultimately the true demand will only be known when the units actually begin to ship. My prediction is a few months worth of gangbuster sales and then nose dive after the diehards have their units.

hcoat typed

you could save alot of money and get the same result using roxio videowave or something like that.

Roxio!?! You have got to be kidding, wouldn't touch that program with a ten foot pull. If you have to ask why I invest in programs from Newtek, then I doubt you can understand. Let's just say, quality, customer service, ease of use among many others. Something that Apple seldom is able to deliver, especially the customer service! I have not found any computer company outside of Newtek that meet their level of customer service!

Brian

dfc
07-14-2003, 10:36 AM
Part I:

Well, I kind of agee on both fronts :)

I do believe these company decisions are all about the money.

I think that's aboslutely the bottom line.

For apple..and for Adobe.

Apple has to sell computers to make money.

And, in order to do that, there has to be reasons to buy them..and software is "one" aspect of that.

Adobe's been rotting the mac software for a long time now.

And I think it's true, that part of this reason was..that the Windows sales were outpacing the mac sales.

But, then..apple has to make money too.

And I agree with Beam..that there is a pretty nice chunk of pentup upgrade demand for the G5s. About 4 years worth to be exact :)

But given some of the discussion here...I jsut wanted to relay a recent experience as honestly as I can.

I have a very good friend from India. He has a PHD in Applied Mathmatics from MIT.

One day, sincerely, he asked me why I used a mac..even though I have several PCs?

Basically..my friend would rather chew his toes off than use one...but he doesn't hate them.

He told me...I've never understood this "feeling" people have about computers? They are just a tool...like a phone is a tool. That they should just be transparent as far as he was concerend...that...the software was the same..programs.etc..and it was just about completeing a task..so he was asking...given the cost difference, the lack of software and other noted "disadvnatages" to getting the job done (speed etc)..just why would anyone choose such a tool?

I thought very honestly about it.

I thought, what a great question this was...and I realized..that I never thought of myself as being "different"? Nor did I think I was somehow doing anything "different". I thought I "was" using the best tool for the job!

Suddenly, I was looking at everything..that was different about us. The kind of car he drives vs the car I drive. His taste in clothes vs mine. And realized we were both wearing cell phones. And given that he had used this example..ie..the phone being a tool...I unclipped his phone from his belt..and I took mine out..and held them out together.

It was very interesting. My cellphone is a motorola V60. Plain, good reception..low emissions...very functional phone. His phone..was one the latest $$$ video, photo, email..etc..phones.. hahahahaha.

So, I held them out in front of me and I said...you see, we make these decisions everyday..as to what is important to us...even for our "tools".

You said, the phone was just a tool. Then why do you have video, photo.etc? if the purpose of the phone..is just to make calls? (ie..get to point a to b)?

He started lauging.

I said..but wait, there's more: look at my phone!

Here I've spent all this money on the mac..cause somehow that's a better tool for me..and yet I have this rather plain functional phone!. We both had a good laugh..opened a good bottle of wine and we talked about it.

Even the wine we talked about. He likes white..I like red. He's not that particular as to quality of wine..I'm very picky.

So, he said..ok..I see your point. But, tell me this, I understand what you do on the computer, some graphic design, some conceptual design, a little 3d, video and audio/composing thrown in...some of it...just grunt work and some of it heavy on the design end. He said: " the software is the same right"?

I said..well..mostly yes. There are some difference/features but I conceded his point, that for the bulk of it..PS is PS.

He said, given the small differences...which can be worked around..he said..the PC is faster no?

I said..well..that depends on whether you are talking about render speed of something..or getting around on it.

He said..no, no...I mean..stricktly computational speed for a given task for the apps you use. I said..yes..overall, the PC are faster.

He said...and they are cheaper too..no?

I said, without question...they can be had cheaper yes.

So, he said..(with his math brain)...I could see..that for what you do..the cost of the software and upgrades..could easily be more expensive than the initial cost of the hardware..is that not correct? I said yes.

So, he said, then reatlively speaking, if you were to say, be using an avid system or something wehre the cost of the software/hardware for that system is say 40 thousand dollars..then the cost of mac vs PC..would be a minor figure in that regard.

I said..yes.

He said..BUT..if in making money with that system..it's determined by the amount of production capability you have per day/hour...would not time difference over a year or more ..be a substantial amount of money for what you charge?

I said, yes, it could be. BUT, only if I was in the business of rendering to make my money or that was the largest amount of time you spent as part of producing your product or that somehow my productivety was directly proprotional to the render computational speed of my cpu.

ah.

dfc
07-14-2003, 10:37 AM
Part II

I make my money on ideas. And ideas are not so much about time/per hour...but more about...the end product. Whether the computer can compute x seconds or mins or hours faster..is not the issue for me. It's how fast and easily my brain can come up with ideas..concepts..etc.

Oh, I see he said.

So, for me..computing is about my environment...more so..than about the speed.

Let my clarify...it's not about how fast I can hammer nails into the roof. IT's about how long it takes me to come up with "designing" the house!

So, I told him..in the same way...that the cost difference for the computer can be minor or relative..in reagards to the amount of money for an avid ...I said...in my time...the 40 hours I spend creating something..is more important (as far as it being a concern to me) ..than the 5 hours I spend rendering it.

Ah..so he said: But, does the PC somehow create an environment that is not conducive for you to design? Is it a matter of simply of being more familiar with one than the other? I mean, you have the same software basiclaly, and you have the mouse or tablet..or keyboard with minor differences..etc. What' different about that enviornment other than very minor things? So the menu is over here..rather than over there..etc..once you open the program..it's pretty much the same?

And that was a good question!

So, I had to think really hard about "why" I felt better on my mac than I do on my PC.

And this is what I came up with:
The first computer I ever bought was a mac. I had used PC's...but this was my first purchase. At the time..PC's could barely beep, and using it was something akin to using a teletype. The mac at the time..was so vastly superior for anything..color, audio..GUI..you name it...AND the mac was much more powerful in every way (and much more expensive). And, I just never forgot that I think. I became very comfortable with it.

The mac took this whole geeky world of computers ..remembering commands..etc..and it turned it into this simple, powerful, easy to function tool..that was also very powerful..and had software to go with it!

Even as windows has gotten so much better..and PCs have gotten so much more capable...that there is still "something" that I feel is different about them...that I "know" is diferrent because it makes "me" feel different to use it.

Ah..he said..so it's just a feeling?

I said..I guess so..partly. It's more an evironment.

But, he said, still though...it's a computer? I don't understand this "feeling" for a computer.

And I told him..it's not so much the computer that's important..it's how it makes "me" feel to use it.

You'd chew your toes off if you had to use a mac. I don't have the same aversion to PC's cause I have them..use them..and when I need to just drive a nail..I pick up the hammer (dual xeon) and drive it. But, when I need space..to create..think..sit..etc..I reach for the dual G4 with the 22 inch cinema display..that I'm very much at home and at peace on and comforatable with.., every thing..doesm't make me go..Aaakk.

He said..but I know plenty of designers who use PC's..(his wife is a designer..damn good one too)...that do not have this same aversion.

And I said..like I said before, I think that's just what my experience was..long ago..that I still remember..that apple has still managed to hang on to..despite their cpu shortcomings..etc. The whole friggin computer is "designed". It's about creating an enviornment. But, just like we choose different things for ourselves to find this space, comfort..what's import to us for our comfort...this was the way I felt since long ago and that feeling has just never left me.

And that even though I could clearly see..that the dual xeon can smoke my mac in a LW render contest..that this was not what it was about for me.

He shook his head a little and we laughed and drank more wine.

So, finally, I asked him...why do you have that $$$ cell phone? He said..I don't know..I thought it was cool..I like to play with it. Yes, I said..but it's just a phone...to make calls right?

And I said, and my motorla plane jane V60 is actually a better "phone" with better reception...etc..function..as a phone? He started laughing then.

He said..but really..It's just my cell phone this way. I use the analog phone..when I'm in the house..it really doesn't make me feel any different to use one or the other.

Then why did you spend all the extra money on that phone?

He laughed again.

So, by this time we are lit from the wine. I said..come in here lets look at your house for a min. We walked into the beautifully furnished living room. Everything spotless..nice. Very nice use of space, color..etc. Very comfortable. He says..yes..we worked very hard on this. I said..ok..you've seen my work space right? He said yes. I said..lets go upstairs and look at yours. WE laughed all the way up.

When I opend the door..it was like a transition from the TajMahal of the house...to some sort of cyops outpost communication center! Wires, hubs, routers..cables everywhere..fans blaring away..manuals and paper all over the place. A complete train wreck. He had a hard wooden chair! I kid you not. A big ole CRT crammed right up in his face..that would give you sunburn.
A cheap desk that was rickety...and about 2 inches of mouse space.

There you go. The difference between math..and comfort.

He said..yes..but this is just my work space. I work here. I said..no..you LIVE here. So, in my honor...we cleaned up the cabling a little bit. Found him a decent chair. Put a picture or 2 up...and did a little organizing.

Different strokes for different folks.

It truly was an interesting and fun evening.

Anyway, I apologize the long post. I'm not speaking for "all" mac users..just myself. And it's funny..that since the day of my first mac..I have always, always felt I was using the best tool for the job (for me). I've never felt I was not.

As long as I feel that way? I guess..I'll keep buying macs.

Clearly though, this issue with Adobe..has driven home the point..that there is always the danger that Macs market share could just drop so low..that software developers just stop writting good software for it.

Ah well. If that happens... I guess I'll have to start speaking to my PC's again..instead of treating them like a whore on nickel night.

Ade
07-14-2003, 11:48 AM
All we can take from this is soo far, all apple made appz have done heaps good for the industry and have been all quality products.

Beamtracer
07-14-2003, 04:39 PM
dfc.... you should be writing novels!!! Nice post, though.

When Apple introduced the G3 processor it had a higher clockspeed than anything from Intel. Not only that, but each cycle of the G3 processor did more work than a cycle of a Pentium processor. The G3 was superior in every way.

Motorola dropped the ball with the G4. It gave Apple a reputation for slow machines.

With the advent of the G5 the Mac is now very very very fast. Now it is Intel that has dropped the ball. Intel failed to see that 64-bit computing would be a thing for all computer users, not just industrial applications.

Intel's 64-bit Itanic processor has been a disaster. In the late 90s it was billed as the replacement for the Pentium. Speeds have been slow. Sales have been dismal. What has Intel been doing with all its R&D money to come out with such a shocker? There are even rumors that the Itanic could be scrapped, and Intel may be in a crisis rushing to design a new processor that is dual 32/64-bit like the G5.

Then we look at the processor road map for the future. The G5 (IBM 970) is the beginning of the new generation. IBM has lots of tricks up its sleave, like multicore versions of the processor. The future looks very rosy.

The Pentium is yesterday's processor. Actually, Intel's engineers have done very well to stretch the Pentium as far as its got today. It's going to get more and more difficult for them to keep stretching it further. How will Intel jump the gap to 64-bit computing for the masses?

As for the old saying that "there's no applications for the Mac"... I personally find the opposite. All the applications that I want to use are on the Mac. Not all of them are available for Windows.

Sure, Apple has a niche. The content creation niche. That is just the niche I'm in, so the Mac suits me well.

If you're into spreadsheets and accounting software, then you'll find more of that stuff for Windows. If you're into graphics or music or video, then the Mac is your platform.

Now if you want super fast 64-bit computing, the Mac is also your platform.

toby
07-14-2003, 06:11 PM
" I'll tell you exactly why I argue about Apple, it's because frankly they piss me off. ~ So excuse me while I take potshots at a company and community that has blinders on"

BRIAN
People who do not agree with you do not have "blinders" on. I could say the same thing about people that claim that Windows is "stable" and "trouble free". Especially before PC's had any speed advantage, with Windows 95. Did those PC users have 'blinders' on? I think so. MS marketing is very effective. Do you think that everyone should jump from platform to platform just because the number on the box gets bigger?

Your hatred of Apple is more than apparent, and it is affecting your opinion. Think of it this way, even if we were all wearing 'blinders', we'd still buy their computers, and they'd stay in business.

riki
07-14-2003, 06:24 PM
The whole PC/Mac argument about which is faster is not such a major issue. Mac have released a fast machine, but you can guarantee that it won't be long for the other PC manufactures to follow suit.

toby
07-14-2003, 06:34 PM
Exactly. It's like Ford vs. Chevy arguments. It doesn't matter which one is faster 'now', the Ford people bash Chevy's and vice versa.

So why is it that a new, more powerful Mac has drawn so much hatred and defensive behaviour from PC users into the Mac forum?

The arguments sound just like teenagers bragging over who has the fastest car, and Mac users should know how to rebuild a carburetor just to drive.

Brian Peterson
07-14-2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by toby
People who do not agree with you do not have "blinders" on.

Oh, I could point out many instances of blinders just in this thread, starting off with "we will have the fastest computers"... Ah, I believe that when I see unbiased test results from 3rd parties and not hired guns, on the actual shipping models.



I could say the same thing about people that claim that Windows is "stable" and "trouble free". Especially before PC's had any speed advantage, with Windows 95. Did those PC users have 'blinders' on?.

Did I ever say Windows 95 or even 98, how about Windows XP was stable? NOT! In fact anyone who would come up to me and brag about the stability of any windows would get the same earful Macheads are hearing from me. Windows in no less stable in it's present incarnations than OS X. In fact I'd say it's probably a little more stable than Jag with Jag's penchant for slow down and memory problems. And yes I'm saying that Jag is just as unstable or nearly as stable (depending on how you look at it) as Windows. The holy grail of Mac Stability has never been proven to me so as far as I'm concerned it's a myth. A Mac will crash as often and as easily as any PC on the market. For that matter I had a Mac last week that hadn't been touched in two days suddenly decide to delete it's entire operating system. Hardware all checks out, including hard drive, it just "felt" like deleting itself. Never had a Windows machine pull that one off yet.

Now Toby, if you want to bash Micro$haft I'll gladly join you over on the Windows forum to bash away.


I think so. MS marketing is very effective. Do you think that everyone should jump from platform to platform just because the number on the box gets bigger?

Far from it, but I think a company that is using old outdated technology shouldn't be charging what it was for the machines when they first shipped to market. I just recieved the buyout offer from Apple for my leased 866 G4... I couldn't stop laughing when I read it. Let's see, I can purchase a 1 gig PC outfitted similar to this mac for under $200.

Good ol' blinders on Apple wants me to shell out $1500 for a computer that I already paid for once anyways! :D ROTFLMAO! They were none to happy when I informed them that I would be shipping the thing back tomorrow; "I must not realize the value of the machine." I'm sure if I need one they'll be sitting on quite a mountain of them in a month they'll be more than willing to charge a reasonable price for, like say $150.00, but then I still have my Dual 1.2 which I own outright. Hey I'll sell that one to someone for $3000, anyone want it? :D


Think of it this way, even if we were all wearing 'blinders', we'd still buy their computers, and they'd stay in business.

Hmm, I'm having a sense of Deja' Vu... A friend of mine told me almost the exact same thing about his Amigas about 10 years ago, 9 months before they went belly up and died. The irony is 4 years ago I paid him $20 for one of his MBs to keep my T/F system up and running, which I bout 2 years after his famous last words on Amiga. :cool:

dfc
07-15-2003, 12:38 AM
Brian,
Just a quick question...so you own a dual 1.2 ghz G4...and you also "leased" a single 867 (you said 866..I assume you meant 867?) G4?

Was it a portable? For travelling?

I've never leased any of my gear. I guess there are some things that might make sense to do that way. But, the computers I always bought..it just doesn't make sense to lease them in most situations (like you said..you end up paying for it anyway)

You are right...you could have just bought the 867 outright..then sold it at the end of the year or 2. Would have made more sense financially. (unless you just didn't want to hassle with trying to sell it)

Finally, could you be a little more specifc about your comments about disk and ram issues under OSX?

One thing I've come across, more than a few times lately, is that OSX seems to be a lot more sensitive as far as ram compatibility than OS9 was.

Lots of people I know ended up replacing the bargain ram they bought.

Is that the issue you were referring to?

As far as apps slowing down, etc...could you be a little more specific?

Are you referring to the paging system in OSX?

I "have" seen some reports from disk streaming tests that seem to indicate that OSX has slower disk access perfomrance than OS 9 under sustained read/write operations. But, this test was done using a 3rd party app..not known for it's stability to begin with...so..with a grain of salt.

The test was done under both OS9 and OSX..and OSX got about 70% of the performance that OS9 did under the same read/write test using the same application (cross platform as it were)

I've not seen another test since then..but the test was repeated by several people and they all came to the same concluson. So, mainly, I was just interested if what you were referring to might be related to that in some way?

Thanks.

toby
07-15-2003, 03:16 AM
"Did I ever say Windows 95 or even 98, how about Windows XP was stable?"

Did I say you did? You're being argumentative. In fact I think that's all you come here for.

Adios

Johnny
07-15-2003, 05:32 AM
Originally posted by Brian Peterson
[B]I just recieved the buyout offer from Apple for my leased 866 G4... I couldn't stop laughing when I read it...Good ol' blinders on Apple wants me to shell out $1500 for a computer that I already paid for once anyways!

so, where do the blinders come in? sounds to me like you were smart enough to take a pass on what sounds like a bad deal, but I have personally always thought that leasing was just another way of 'you're going to pay too much for it' whether it's for a computer or a car. Usually, the leasing company lays out the terms in advance, ie, so much down, so much per month, and how much the end-of-lease buyout amount is.

Was this information held from you?

sounds like they pitched you a deal, and you said no. doesn't sound like you had blinders on, or that they were trying to put them on you.

J

Brian Peterson
07-15-2003, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by dfc
Just a quick question...so you own a dual 1.2 ghz G4...and you also "leased" a single 867 (you said 866..I assume you meant 867?) G4?

Yes, I leased an 867 2 years ago. Mainly due to the fact I did not at the time have the free cash to purchase outright. Anyways it's a tax write off. Since then I have purchased a dual 1.2 from someone looking to unload it fast. The only reason I have for owning a Mac is to run DVDSP on it, which presently does not have an equal on the PC.


I've never leased any of my gear. I guess there are some things that might make sense to do that way. But, the computers I always bought..it just doesn't make sense to lease them in most situations (like you said..you end up paying for it anyway)

It made sense at the time since it would have cost me 4Xs what the lease did to outsource my DVD authoring every month. From that standpoint it was well worth it.


Finally, could you be a little more specifc about your comments about disk and ram issues under OSX?

I can't be more specific than this: It's a problem I've encountered on every Mac running Jag. I call it the lollypop from hell problem. The spinning disc or lollypop will appear and take minutes to disappear, to never without a reboot, doing the most simple things. Just a few minutes ago my 1.2 dual went into lollypop mode for 10 minutes (I timed it) just opening a folder on the desk top. This will happen in importing clips into DVDSP, opening programs etc. Several Macheads I know won't even run Jag and stay with OS9 because of this problem. It's a problem that Apple does not seem to want to admit to, but I've encountered it even in display models in the stores. Very, very irritating. So there is my technical explenation.


Was this information held from you?

Johnny, I never said I had blinders on, I said Apple had blinders on, especially in realizing the value of their junk.

And yes I was not given a buyout price when signing the contract, so I had no idea what would be proposed.

dfc
07-15-2003, 11:53 AM
Have you tried repairing your permissions?

It's an option in the OSX disc utlilty.

I've seen the spinning beachball as they call it before. But, it not be a common occurance. (more like a crash that happens from time to time)

Hanging on opening files, folders, etc..usually has to do with sharing issue.

This can also happen in OS9 if you have file sharing turned on..and are not connected to the network.

That's one way this can happen.

If it's a local directory that's doing this, then you should repair permissions on the drive and see if that helps.

Generally, the macs , as they ship or sit at the store..only have 256 to 512 of ram. That's entirely "not" enough ram in my opinion for OSX. It's a complete ram hog. I have a gig of ram and I can still hear it paging sometimes.

But, a combintation of factors..can lead to the spinning beachball...(cpu spikes going to 100%)...network or filesharing issues, or paging issues from not having enough ram..or even not having a support QE card. Or, a combo of all of the above.

These beachball hangs.."do" happen from time to time. Mostly like a crash.
But, it shouldn't be happening "all" the time...or even frequently on a random basis for doing simple operations like opening a folder.

Give the repair permissions a shot and see if that helps.

fxgeek
07-15-2003, 01:47 PM
If the beach-ball is up for more than 30 seconds then there's something wrong somewhere. This is not normal behavior of OSX, Especially in the finder. I suggest you try the repair privileges utility and if that doesn't fix it get disk Warrior. Just out of interest, did you install Jag over an old OS9 partition, because you may need to do a clean install.

dfc
07-15-2003, 02:08 PM
Brian,
A couple of other items for thought in troubleshooting your issue.

First is.."classic" environment is set by default to lauch at startup in OSX. If you are not running any legacy apps under OSX..I would suggest that you go to the control panel for classic and turn it off ..ie set it not to lauch at startup..and reboot. There have been reports of spinning cursor hangs invoving classic environment...(like cutting and pasting or copy operations between classic and OSX)

The other place I'd suggest looking into on your system is any app you use that uses file indexing. For instance..I know you have "one". That's Sherlock.
Sherlock is set by default to automatically index new volumes as well as to schedule (in time)..a time to index all volumes on your machine..for fast file find searches. If you don't use Sherlock on a regular basis..I'd suggest you open Sherlock..go into the preferences..and turn this "off". You may also have other apps..that are set to auto index volumes or folders..when opening them. (point being..if you have large volumes with many files..this can take time..and also..if you corrupted files or permissions on these volumes..it can cause a very long sustained hang when accessing them. Again, rebulding the indexs or repariing permissions can help here)

Next is..when all else fails..and you can't seem to get issues resolved...the best thing to do..is to create a new user account..fresh..and reinstall your critical apps under it. This has cleared up a lot of issues for some people..where things like prefs, permissions.etc..have just gotten so fouled up..they couldnt' get it straighted out. After you get everything moved over...from your old account..you can delete the old account.

Anyway..a couple more things to try.

Red_Oddity
07-16-2003, 03:16 AM
I've tried all that stuff aswell...and i still get unbearable slowdowns and spinning beachballs (adding a curve in AFX and editing it...hell just touching a folder...is enough to get the beachball going...)

I run Mac Janitor daily (does a lot more then just repearing priviliges)...
I turn of sharing when working (it frustrates my coworkers because they have to keep asking me to turn it on...)
I keep all software up to date (big mistake on my part, since the last updates from Apple have been nothing more than pure sh!te...)
I keep my PPC case open (yes...it overheats...i even ripped out my 600 euro Ti4600, since it is not adequatly cooled...thank you Apple...appearantly a silent Mac is prefered over a stable one)

A real sollution would be prefered...one by Apple...FOR FREE...no more friggin workarounds...They sell their hardware will the lie it being the standard for the printing and video industry (i couldn't even print in OS-X until Jag came out )...but it doesn't f-ing work properly....

Ahwell...i bet the G5 will be the end to our prayers...i mean..Steve told us...so it must be true..right?...



Oh right..Premiere...erm...who cares?

fxgeek
07-16-2003, 03:31 AM
This is NOT NORMAL OSX Behavior. Im sorry that you are having trouble with your machine, but you are the exception rather than the norm. Judging by your aggression towards Apple you may not want to hear this, but not every Mac running Jag has this problem. In fact very few do. I maintain a network of several Mac's running Jag, even on some old 450's and none of them have this problem. Im not going to get into a flame bait argument and this thread has gone somewhat off topic, but rather than ragging on Apple, you should get some advice from someone who does technical support for Macs, as you could have faulty ram or hard drive problems.

Brian Peterson
07-16-2003, 09:59 AM
Sorry Thomas, it is not an exception but the norm with Jag. There is a memory problem that needs to be addressed in Jag. I've personally encountered it on G4s from the chicago Apple store to every person I know running Jag. Lollypop from hell was coined at a friend's work place at an advertising agency which has 50 macs in place, everyone of them suffering the same problem. Now they call it the coffee break.

I would like to thank everyone for their suggestions, but many of them had already been tried multiple times. I even had the local authorized tech place tell me to grin and bear it after they took $500 from me for nothing. It is not a hardware problem, swapping out ram for larger chunks of ram has not helped. Putting in larger hard drives, because I needed the storage space, has not helped.

serpicolugnut
07-16-2003, 11:50 AM
I've run Jag on a G4/800DP - 1.5GB of RAM and a PBG4/1ghz - 1GBRAM, and I've never had any serious issues with the beach ball hell. I did have an episode once shortly after Jag was released where it locked up with the beach ball, but a quick ssh from the PB in to the G4 was able to kill the Windowserver and all was fine.

How much RAM do you guys have in your boxes?

I wouldn't run OS X with anything less than 1GB, and if possible, I'd go to 2GB (max on PB is 1). That could be your problem. OS X is known for quickly paging out of RAM when using less than 1GB. That's the main reason you might see this behavior in the Apple Stores - all their machines come with the stock measley RAM that Apple ships with - probably the biggest complaint I have of them.

Yeah, the Mac hardware is more expensive in some cases (comparatively specked out G5 vs. Xeon systems seem to be on par). But that's always been the case. You don't buy a Mac because of the hardware - you buy it because of the hardware / software integration. You buy it because the OS is a joy to use, as opposed to Windows, which even by it's fans, is considered a pain in most respects. You buy it because Apple makes some killer software - pro and consumer - that isn't available on Windows. You buy it because you would rather have 3 really good 3-D programs, and don't care about the 10 that are available for Windows that generally suck anyway. You buy it because the majority of DTP is still done with a Mac. You buy it because of all these factors. And the final reason - many of you buy a Mac because you've used Windows, and "been there, done that" is typically the response.

Stop comparing render times (mine is shorter than yours - god, penis envy anyone?) and get on with the business of creating with your Mac or your PC. Both are tools. Use whichever one suits you best.

End of rant.

js33
07-16-2003, 11:55 AM
Well I would hardly call Softimage, Maya Unlimited, Houdini and even 3Dmax crappy programs? Well I don't know about Max:D
Who cares about DTP. The internet has pretty much killed any need to do that anymore. :p

Cheers,
JS

Lightwolf
07-16-2003, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by serpicolugnut
And the final reason - many of you buy a Mac because you've used Windows, and "been there, done that" is typically the response.
Which, I guess, goes both ways :)

Stop comparing render times (mine is shorter than yours - god, penis envy anyone?) and get on with the business of creating with your Mac or your PC. Both are tools. Use whichever one suits you best.
Well said. ...even though, my idle time comes from waiting for renders (on two machines in paralell most of the time...), so render times (well, price performance to be precise... unfortunately) are _for me_ factor number one when deciding on a system.

BTW, going back on topic here...
One thing Adobe really seems to be doing right with Premiere this time is audio.. How long have I been waiting for a decent editing system that supports hardware beyond DV and does sub-frame Audio... Well done Adobe (Even though I hate all previous versions). I hope NT will support it, otherwise I'm sure they'll lose customers on the VTNT front...

Cheers,
Mike

rafa
07-16-2003, 12:35 PM
Check it out:

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2003/jul/16fcp.html


An excellent, excellent offer indeed. And yes, FCP has audio sub-frame editing. As a matter of fact, the only thing is hasn't is built-in multicam support. It also would be great if it had a network renderer and workflow. Yes, Avid has it, simply start adding factors of 10 to the price of FCP.

Lightwolf
07-16-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by rafa
And yes, FCP has audio sub-frame editing.
Good to know, even though none of the FCP cracks I know knew that :)

dfc
07-16-2003, 03:03 PM
FCP also has AU plugin support. You can use your AU format plugs in FCP.

It also has core audio support..for using your multichannel third party coreaudio i/o under FCP directly.

As far as the comment that cusor hang crashes are "normal" for Jag..I think your just stating that wrong. It's not "normal" for jag to do this.

But, it might be a "common" thing that occurs with the number of people who are having issues with their setups. Just as a cpu spike /forece quit..or an unexpected quit..might be a common repeated occurance with problematic applications that people use. That doens't make it "normal". Just a common expression or symptom of the problem..as it's expressed via the OS.

And by far, the vast numbers of people using it..are not having the problem.
Out of those who are having problems with Jag and their setups...it's not uncommon to hear the spinning beach ball hang to be one of them.

Just as it's "common" to hear that people who have mal configs of XP..might be experienceing similar behavior of thei rmachines (BSODs, hangs, sponeaneous booting..etc). That doesn't make it "normal".