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View Full Version : Moving from 3ds max to Lightwave...



akstylish
12-10-2007, 12:26 PM
Hi. I just registered for a 3d max online course...but I'm going to buy Lightwave after finishing the course because I can't afford 3ds max. How much will learning 3ds max help me learn lightwave in terms of time?

edit: in case you wonder, the course is about 650 hours long.

oldtekerr
12-10-2007, 12:28 PM
Did you pay for the course yet?

akstylish
12-10-2007, 12:34 PM
Uhh...no. Do you think it's waste of time/money?

akstylish
12-10-2007, 12:42 PM
But I have to register for something related to 3d animation, and there isn't a course for Lightwave.

Steamthrower
12-10-2007, 12:44 PM
I really think that 3ds Max and Lightwave are two completely different beasts...you may run into problems especially if you're new to CG.

oldtekerr
12-10-2007, 12:45 PM
Uhh...no. Do you think it's waste of time/money?


Well, not really... Do you have a copy of 3Dmax to use for the course? If it were me, I would probably try and scrape up the money for max, or get LW before the course and try transferring the concepts over as you go through it. You will quickly find that LW is good for some stuff and max is good for other stuff...

Yog
12-10-2007, 12:50 PM
Although Max and LW are probably the two hardest programs to move between in terms of learning, the most important things you will learn in one program will directly relate to the other.
For modelling, the most important things to learn are an appreciation of form, what detail adds realism, and being able to model what you see. Texturing is mainly and appreciation of how light effects the surface of a material, and animation is all about timing and good acting. None of which is software specific.

The worst thing you can do is concentrate on the differences, rather than acknowledge the similarities.

bobakabob
12-10-2007, 12:52 PM
As a former Max user, I found Lightwave much more accessible and artist friendly. The underlying principles are similar but the interfaces are significantly different. IMO Max is too 'clunky', like something designed by a commitee of mechanical engineers rather than artists. Then again it's undeniably powerful and is capable of great results. It's all very subjective so see if you can try them out and as a quick test see how quickly you can make a box, texture it then render :)

It would make sense to invest in Lightwave training if you're intending buying into it. But then the more 3d apps you learn the more flexible you'll be in the long run. The problem here is you'll dissipate your creative energies as 3d learning curves are steep. Guess you pays your money you makes your choice...

Sarford
12-10-2007, 01:02 PM
Since you'll be doing a course, you'd propably can buy the academic version of MAX, saves you a lot of money, though I don't know how much it will cost to change the academic version to a comercial licence.
You'll need a comercial licence if you wanna make money with MAX after your course.

Me, I wouldn't wanna use MAX, even if I got it for free. I loath the design and work concepts of the program. Still, it can come in quite handy if you work in the games industry.

Steamthrower
12-10-2007, 01:15 PM
I think that, like Sarford said, the only reason in the industry to learn Max now is if you're working in games.

For film, I'd suggest Maya. For television work, or arch viz or mechanical modeling, I'd suggest Lightwave. But that's coming from a young, ignorant dolt, so don't take what I say to the bank. :D

cresshead
12-10-2007, 03:36 PM
i use lightwave and max daily, the actually complement each other quite well and yes there are differences but on the whole your learning '3d' no max or lightwave actually.

your quite lucky in that there's a mountain of books & video training plus web tutorials available for both apps unlike say cinema 4d or xsi.

i personally find 3dsmax's interface as nr perfect as any app i have used be they for 3d or anything...i know a load of lightwave users can't stand icons but i prefer them to re reading text buttons over and over again.

if your a student then you can get a student version of 3dsmax that's really cheap...around 75 for a 2 year key...of course it's 'student' so no making money with it but great to learn with and make your show reel.

you'll find lightwave is pretty good at modeling, surfacing and lighting and most animations and special fx.

max has a steeper learning curve on mental ray [renderer] but you also have light tracer which is more or less a 1 click wonder ...though slow in comparison to mental ray.

i taught both max and lightwave at peoples college nottingham back in 2005 and both were pretty easy for my students to pick up in class...some also went on to buy xsi but not many could do much with it and dropped it...so beware of xsi foundation...it's not easy to learn as a 'whole app'...the main
things that killed people from using it were the material editor and the implementation of the renderer in xsi [mental ray]...i hear it's got a lot better in version 6 and there's some decent training now but..thought i'd send out a warning just in case...i'd say try before you buy on xsi...

back to max..max has some great tools and work flows b plus is a dream at character animation, something that lightwave does struggle with in comparison...also max has robust cloth and dynamics sims plus a production worthy hair/fur renderer.

lightwave has a very good cel shader system and hypervoxels [volumetric particles] are very groovy compared to what max throws out...though max does have particle flow which can do some astounding things..

as you can see both have they great strengths..lightwave is used on battle star galactica tv show so you know what sort of stuff it can produce...max is extreemly dominant in computer games and consoles and they are approaching film quality 'in game' so nothing to balk at...

i'd say most 3d apps are VERY capable thesedays...

3dsmax has the largest installed userbase on the planet and i believe that lightwave is second largest so learning BOTH will do you no real harm!

good luck!

cresshead
12-10-2007, 03:45 PM
i'd add that for training with 3ds max i'd highly reccomend www.3dbuzz.com
their fundamentals video based training on 3dsmax [on dvd disc] is over 108 hours long...amazing really..and only $99..

whilst your there you might also get yourself the maya training [fundamentals]
which is 85 hours long...and also $99..plus maya has a free ple version..i'll add that maya is not so easy to pick up and learn
as either lw or max but it is dominant in the film sector.

now is a great time to learn 3d...there's loads of training available and it's a growing industry.

bobakabob
12-10-2007, 04:55 PM
i taught both max and lightwave at peoples college nottingham back in 2005 and both were pretty easy for my students to pick up in class...some also went on to buy xsi but not many could do much with it and dropped it...so beware of xsi foundation...it's not easy to learn as a 'whole app'...the main
things that killed people from using it were the material editor and the implementation of the renderer in xsi [mental ray]...i hear it's got a lot better in version 6 and there's some decent training now but..thought i'd send out a warning just in case...i'd say try before you buy on xsi...



OT: Funny you and the students didn't get on with XSI... the more time I spend with it, the more the interface seems like a cross between Max and Lightwave. Agree about surfacing and rendering though... despite the nodal system and quick render window for instant feedback imo it just doesn't seem as accessible or subtle as Lightwave 9.3.

cresshead
12-10-2007, 05:21 PM
i got on okay with xsi, it's just missing too many things to make it usable if you already have 3dsmax..it doesn't offer anything MORE and has some really dumb ideas which mean i can't use it without slowing down my projects to a crawl.

eg no measuring system, no units, no ies lights..maybe version 7 will get some of the basics of a 3d app back into xsi.

my bottom line on xsi is that it makes some really difficult things easy/do able....
... but some really easy and do able things are impossible or difficult in xsi...!!

oldtekerr
12-10-2007, 06:00 PM
As a former Max user, I found Lightwave much more accessible and artist friendly
This is so true, and NT should market LW as such... Tool for the artist!
If NT could do a few more improvements in a couple of areas. They would have the best artist tool around... A tool that lets a single artist put out images and animation that can rival the quality of its over priced competitors. As I said there are some things that still need to be fixed/added, but it is possible!


my bottom line on xsi is that it makes some really difficult things easy/do able....
... but some really easy and do able things are impossible or difficult in xsi...!!

This is also a fact... LW makes some pretty complicated effects fairly easy to pull of compared to other software, but there is those times when LW just cant do it (efficiently).

kopperdrake
12-11-2007, 03:33 AM
I think that, like Sarford said, the only reason in the industry to learn Max now is if you're working in games.

For film, I'd suggest Maya. For television work, or arch viz or mechanical modeling, I'd suggest Lightwave. But that's coming from a young, ignorant dolt, so don't take what I say to the bank. :D

Not sure what it's like in the US but over here games are more and more turning to Maya for the power of melscript. As games are becoming more complex Max just can't hack it.

cresshead
12-11-2007, 05:14 AM
Not sure what it's like in the US but over here games are more and more turning to Maya for the power of melscript. As games are becoming more complex Max just can't hack it.

...that's according to maya sales reps of course!:D
some of the things maya can't do amaze me...for a so called top app it's FAR from the king of the hill..

..try 'add fall off map' for a start...

Chris S. (Fez)
12-11-2007, 06:22 AM
Seems Max is here to stay. Autodesk is claiming record sales.

Max 2008 is an awesome update IMO.

archijam
12-11-2007, 06:32 AM
Seems Max is here to stay. Autodesk is claiming record sales.

... so did microsoft about WindowsXP .. ;) .. luckily there are still viable alternatives to MAX. Monopoly works well. As much as I appreciate aspects of Maya and Max, Autode$k seems ever more the Micro$oft of 3D.

... tho 2008 is indeed a great update (especially for ArchViz), it's all there. :)

I'd use it next to LW like Cress if I a) still modelled my buildings in AutoCAD and b) could substantiate the pricetag ..

j.

Steamthrower
12-11-2007, 07:50 AM
...that's according to maya sales reps of course!
some of the things maya can't do amaze me...for a so called top app it's FAR from the king of the hill..

Isn't it strange that Maya reps try to sell Maya instead of Max? They're the same freaking company competing with themselves! That's like Microsoft coming out with another OS and trying to outsell Vista.

I'm going to claim that, if you enhance LW with third party plugins (Fprime, LWCAD, Sasquatch, Dynamite, Maestro) then you have a heck of a 3d app...still at a low price.

cresshead
12-11-2007, 08:22 AM
not that strange actually seeing as updates for maya cost 200% that of 3dsmax subscription for example on maya complete and they charge for point updates..not to mention maya unlimited which is in a much higher price bracket...the reps make more money on their percentage...so they'll push for maya over max.

bobakabob
12-11-2007, 10:30 AM
Isn't it strange that Maya reps try to sell Maya instead of Max? They're the same freaking company competing with themselves! That's like Microsoft coming out with another OS and trying to outsell Vista.

I'm going to claim that, if you enhance LW with third party plugins (Fprime, LWCAD, Sasquatch, Dynamite, Maestro) then you have a heck of a 3d app...still at a low price.

Don't forget Messiah, awesome for animation.

Lightwave has always been the plucky underdog of 3D. For all its problems it's easy to forget how much of a steal it is relative to Maya and Max which are still ridiculously expensive for what they are.

Steamthrower
12-11-2007, 10:42 AM
not that strange actually seeing as updates for maya cost 200% that of 3dsmax subscription for example on maya complete and they charge for point updates..not to mention maya unlimited which is in a much higher price bracket...the reps make more money on their percentage...so they'll push for maya over max.

I understand that, but my question was more in the regards of why does Autodesk try to compete with itself? Why create two completely different 3D apps, both shooting for a similar goal? When they could simply bring both devleopment teams together and create a single super-app...maybe with two different price versions. It's a puzzlement to me.

Andyjaggy
12-11-2007, 10:47 AM
laim that, if you enhance LW with third party plugins (Fprime, LWCAD, Sasquatch, Dynamite, Maestro) then you have a heck of a 3d app...still at a low price.

There are some amazing plugins for LW. Many of them free! Without all these awesome plugs I would most likely be using a different app at the moment.

So much to love about LW. So much that need to be fixed :D

cresshead
12-11-2007, 11:30 AM
i did write a detailed reply but this darn web board lost it on my posting it up....

autodesk developed 3dsmax
autodesk bought the company alias so inherited maya as a freeby they really wanted studio tools...then developed maya as of version 8 i think..

andf yeah both will get replaced in due time though they're so dominant in their respected areras's that there's no major rush..

try this small fact...ALL of the other 3d app sales put together [maya, lightwave, modo, xsi, cinema, houdini, vue. mudbox, z brush, merssiah..] do not match up to 3dsmax on it's own...that's SOME market share to go n beat.

archijam
12-11-2007, 11:56 AM
And they can thank ... software piracy :)

Sarford
12-11-2007, 12:08 PM
heh, I had a pirated version of MAX a long time ago, (years before I made money with 3D), it made me decide NOT to use MAX, so it can work against you too :D

The thing I hate most about MAX is those scrolling palets, it is enough to put me off the software.

cresshead
12-11-2007, 12:14 PM
And they can thank ... software piracy :)

actually no...that's bought and paid for seats...

not how many theiving scum have 'stolen' 3dsmax lightwave or maya etc...

with autodesk now having maya they got a really good look first hand on just how successful 3dsmax has sold in comparison to maya as well...and continues to out sell maya something like 3:1

cresshead
12-11-2007, 12:17 PM
heh, I had a pirated version of MAX a long time ago, (years before I made money with 3D), it made me decide NOT to use MAX, so it can work against you too :D

The thing I hate most about MAX is those scrolling palets, it is enough to put me off the software.

scrolling pallets were there for small screen res of 1996-1999 and before you could pull on there command panel [max 4 onwards] to extend/drag it to have it fully open...

gee i feel like i'm defending it at every turn...hey if you don't like max more power to me then...nice to have an advantage over other artists:devil: :D :thumbsup:

just a bit of fun...don't get upset please!

Steamthrower
12-11-2007, 12:33 PM
I've had to deal with AutoCad regularly during the past three years at work.

I will never buy an Autodesk product in my life.

I never thought a product could make me hate icons as much as I do now. :D

Andyjaggy
12-11-2007, 12:50 PM
Yes. Love the text in LW. I don't know why no one else does it. No wild guesses as to the function of the button. No squinting to see the difference between a squigly with 2 slashes through it, a squigly with 3 slashes, and a slash with a squigly through it.

archijam
12-11-2007, 12:52 PM
No squinting to see the difference between a squigly with 2 slashes through it, a squigly with 3 slashes, and a slash with a squigly through it.

Easy, that's the difference between Fish and Chips, and Fish Fingers.

j.

cresshead
12-11-2007, 12:54 PM
Yes. Love the text in LW. I don't know why no one else does it. No wild guesses as to the function of the button. No squinting to see the difference between a squigly with 2 slashes through it, a squigly with 3 slashes, and a slash with a squigly through it.

errr.. no one else?

xsi.....text based
3dsmax...load up the custom text ui...there's a whole bunch of u.i presets to load dating back to version 3!

:D

Steamthrower
12-11-2007, 01:07 PM
Still isn't the same. XSI's interface is like a bunch of text icons - too bulky and totally not minimalist. And Max still has all the tabs and panels: it's just plain bloated feeling.

One of my biggest attractions to the LW interface are the viewport movement abilities. I love the little grab n' pan buttons. They don't lose the particular vertices/polygons that I have selected and doesn't require hunting around through an icon bank to find. I just love it! And the pivot is very nice (somehow, when you rotate the view in other 3D apps your position gets skewed around a lot).

Don't bother about me though. I'm just a happy fanboy. :D

Andyjaggy
12-11-2007, 01:12 PM
I think the XSI interface has a lot of potential, if they just got rid of the cutsy little shapes and stuff that the text and icons are on top of it would be rather nice. It's almost like they tried a little too hard to make it "fun" looking.

akstylish
12-11-2007, 01:38 PM
Thank you for the replies. They helped me a lot. Btw, is there any lightwave training dvd that you recommend? Now that you said I can get 108 hrs of training for $99...it sounds like a 650 hr course for $4095 is a little too much for me.

Steamthrower
12-11-2007, 02:17 PM
Wow. Rather. $4095 is a dang lot of Fritos and Pringles.

Try the Dan Ablan book...the Larry Schultz DVD series at Kurv Studios...and I'm sure there're more I'm forgetting.

cresshead
12-11-2007, 03:43 PM
for lightwave i'd def recommend larry's vids
www.splinegod.com tell him i sent ya!....

for max...
www.3dbuzz.com and gnomonworkshop's vids defo get the buzz vids they're really good....108hours+

for maya
www.3dbuzz.com and www.digitaltutors.com though get the buzz stuff first all 80+ hours...then top up with digital tutors once your getting to grips with maya.

for z brush
www.digitaltutors.com
and gnomonworkshop vids

for xsi
www.digitaltutors.com

btw on the buzz stuff you get the max and maya scene files and additional photoshop training as well!

cresshead
12-11-2007, 03:47 PM
i'd just add that the stuff you learn on the buzz maya or max course would cost you around $15,000 if they taught you at a college and you'd need to go for 2yrs......and they did used to teach their stuff at colleges...

buzz also co-wrote a max book called the art of production for max4 and combustion...that'll giove you an idea on how deep they take a fundamentals class...you'll be maxscripting some interfaces...

on the maya class you'll be writing expressions and looking into mel...fundamentals does NOT mean making boxes....

bobakabob
12-11-2007, 05:05 PM
heh, I had a pirated version of MAX a long time ago, (years before I made money with 3D), it made me decide NOT to use MAX, so it can work against you too :D

The thing I hate most about MAX is those scrolling palets, it is enough to put me off the software.

Heh... agree absolutely. They can keep it. The interface is truly horrible. Those scrolling palets are death to inspiration. Everything seems designed to stop you being spontaneous.

Ratboy
12-11-2007, 05:26 PM
Heh... agree absolutely. They can keep it. The interface is truly horrible. Those scrolling palets are death to inspiration. Everything seems designed to stop you being spontaneous.I agree totally. Everything I wanted to do seemed to be a minimum of two clicks and a drag away from what I'd just done. Bleh.

IMI
12-11-2007, 05:27 PM
I love LW. I wouldn't say that I'm a "fanboy", because I have very specific reasons whi I love LW and none of those reasons are because it's LW :D

But I'll tell you what, I'm getting to love 3ds max 2008 as well. That's the demo, BTW, which is almost run out, but I still have two more PC's I could run it on, and according to Autodesk, it's acceptable to install it on a different machine after the 30 days, to continue evaluating. :)
But that's neither here nor there. I hate it for modeling, but it is soooo easy to quickly set up a scene. And biped. There's something LW should have. 3ds max has made me want to learn the finer details of rigging like LW hasn't been able to.
I'm no fan of the icons either, but I had some sort of problem and lost half of them. Literally, they went away from the top. I actually really missed the little buggers once they weren't there aymore. ;) Cresshead here helped me get them back. :)
I don't know if I'd want to buy it though - can't really determine that in 30 days, but I can say I'm alot closer to considering it than i would have thought possible. My tests on scene and surface baking are likely to determine that.

bobakabob
12-11-2007, 05:48 PM
I love LW. I wouldn't say that I'm a "fanboy", because I have very specific reasons whi I love LW and none of those reasons are because it's LW :D

But I'll tell you what, I'm getting to love 3ds max 2008 as well. That's the demo, BTW, which is almost run out, but I still have two more PC's I could run it on, and according to Autodesk, it's acceptable to install it on a different machine after the 30 days, to continue evaluating. :)
But that's neither here nor there. I hate it for modeling, but it is soooo easy to quickly set up a scene. And biped. There's something LW should have. 3ds max has made me want to learn the finer details of rigging like LW hasn't been able to.
I'm no fan of the icons either, but I had some sort of problem and lost half of them. Literally, they went away from the top. I actually really missed the little buggers once they weren't there aymore. ;) Cresshead here helped me get them back. :)
I don't know if I'd want to buy it though - can't really determine that in 30 days, but I can say I'm alot closer to considering it than i would have thought possible. My tests on scene and surface baking are likely to determine that.

IMI,

It's all subjective of course. I always marvel at people who can grapple with that ridiculous interface and bash out exquisitely rendered models. I've even seen them at work and it's a truly humbling experience. :D

Agreed, Biped looks like a rather useful animation module. Love those lego brick skeletons. I'm hopelessly (and mercifully) out of the Max loop now though, so aren't qualified to comment. Hopefully it's improved. But I still recall the horror of trying to model in Nurbs in the late 90s: akin to nailing jelly to a wall with a copy of 'Rocket Science for Beginners'. Or 'knitting fog' as they say in the north :)

IMI
12-11-2007, 06:16 PM
I wouldn't try to model anything with it if my life depended on it. Nothing short of a primitive, at least. It's got to be the least intuitive modeling process possible, although I do like soft selection.
The stack system is cool though, and LW could greatly benefit from a feature such as that.
Biped I wouldn't claim to know. I've messed around with it, and have begun a tutorial. My first impression is it could be highly useful. it's fun. :)

Although, I couldn't at all claim to know what I'm talking about where max is concerned, and these are only first impressions. I can deal with the interface, although I prefer LW's interface to any other 3D interface I've ever seen or used. :)

RTSchramm
12-11-2007, 06:44 PM
You can get the following deals:

Autodesk Maya Unlimited 2008................$ 379.95
3ds Max 2008......................................$ 379.95
LightWave 3D 9 with PDF Manual.............$ 195.95

You must be a student in enrolled in an accredited college, and you can only use the software for educational purposes.

Except for Lightwave 8.5 that I bought directly from Newtek, all of my other 3D software I bought from this site. These are the full retail packages of these products, no water marks or other limitations.

To answer you original question, I would use the 3D application that your college is using since the tutorials and course material would most likely be written for that product.

I find that there is NO 3D application that does everything better than the others. Most of the techniques you learn in one application can be applied in another with the only difference is where and how the 3D tools works. The process in creating animation is generally the same with all 3D applications.

Keep in mind that no 3D application will make a lousy artist a greater artist, but a great artist can make great art from any lousy 3D application.

Good luck,

Rich

Steamthrower
12-11-2007, 06:47 PM
there is NO 3D application that does everything better than the others.

But, there ARE 3D applications that do everything worse than the others. Or at least some things worse.

3D Kiwi
12-11-2007, 09:18 PM
But, there ARE 3D applications that do everything worse than the others. Or at least some things worse.


If you want to see a 3D app that does (almost) everything better than the others then you need to look at XSI 7 and moondust. Just had a demo of it about an hour ago. Moondust uses nodes to programme different operators. Eg you can use nodes to say build a extrude operator using pretty much any input you like. Think it is called object based programming. So imagine the node editor in lightwave but you use it for animation etc, Kind of like Houdini (I dont really understand all this kind of stuff so i might not explain it to well). They showed a demo using moondust with particals. WOW i would be very surprized if you dont see realflow type simulations coming out of XSI next year. Very very powerfull. Still no realworld measurement, but i asked the questain and they said they are not focusing on the vis market.

From what i gather you can use this tech for anything from modeling tools, to charactor animation, simulations etc.

It will only come in essentials and advanced, and all of this can be ported to lightwave to render, wouldnt be surprized if someone will find a way to export the partical data to lightwave as well.

If Softimage can do it then autodesk wont be far behind. I can not see lightwave ever keeping up with this kind of tech.

Steamthrower
12-11-2007, 09:46 PM
Thing is, stuff like that is beyond the reach and beyond the need of some (or most) of us. I bought Lightwave for the very reason that it doesn't require scripting or equations; it was a simple program for an artist.

Though in no way am I criticising XSI's new features, things like that aren't aimed for the freelancer or small studio. I can see where it would be incredibly useful for a larger studio, where you can have a dedicated programmer/scripter while others do the modeling and surfacing and rigging and animation.

Perhaps it would be a benefit to NewTek to have features attractive to larger studios, but all in all I see LightWave as a very capable 3D app best for freelancers and small to medium studios. I don't think the really large studios like Imageworks or Digital Domain use Lightwave precisely for this reason.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

Steamthrower
12-11-2007, 09:49 PM
Also, XSI isn't available for Mac...:D

3D Kiwi
12-11-2007, 09:55 PM
Also, XSI isn't available for Mac...:D


Forgot to ask them about macs, i guess with intel macs out now it isnt that bigger deal.

I had the same thinking like you about 4 hours ago, why would you need that kind of pwr. But when they were showing it, my head was just spinning thinking of all the things you can do with it. And for a non programmer like me it looked pretty simple to use. I would rather have the pwr there and not use it than not have the pwr and need it.

oldtekerr
12-11-2007, 10:01 PM
I think that if LW is updated correctly... we can have the best of both worlds... Power and creativity! The way I see it is... NT have to impress a lot of people in this 9x series if they want many of their customers to upgrade.

3D Kiwi
12-11-2007, 10:07 PM
I think that if LW is updated correctly... we can have the best of both worlds... Power and creativity! The way I see it is... NT have to impress a lot of people in this 9x series if they want many of their customers to upgrade.


I really cant see that kind of pwr coming into lightwave in the 9 cycle, or the 10 cycle for that matter as they have so much to do just to catch up to were the other apps were last year.

Chris S. (Fez)
12-11-2007, 10:41 PM
Newtek is apparently integrating Nodal into every aspect of the program. Once Modeler is fully integrated into Layout, I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect functionality similar to Moondust.

In the meantime, I think Newtek MUST concentrate on refining fundamental features. Robust scene/render pass management, totally redone rigging, consolidated modeling tools, and super fast subds should take priority.

I know I have become a broken record...

akstylish
12-13-2007, 10:35 PM
Is there any LW DVD that has 100+ hours of training? All I found had less than 20 hours, and I think it's way too short. And has any of you learned LW yourself only with DVDs and books?

cresshead
12-14-2007, 03:49 AM
actually the real question you have to ask is does ANYONE other than 3dbuzz offer 80 to 100+ hours of training for a reasonable amount of money, say $99?
3dbuzz is unique and btw their training vid used to cost $249..they brought them lower last xmas...and kept them at that new pricepoint...
they have other courses that are the normal $249 like adavnced modeling etc.

and that'll be a no...no one does!

though many vendors have a good selection of free videos including newtek for lightwave and proton has a great collection of videos on various things for lightwave...the thing that's not covered is a methodical structured funaamental training course..for that buzz has really 'got the market' if you want to learn either 3dsmax or maya.

splinegod does have a good introduction training video course for lightwave here:-

http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/introtolightwave.htm
it's $195 and is a structured learning course on lightwave.
it covers quite a bit but no character modeling, rigging is on that course, thogh splinegod does have additional courses that cover character creation, rigging and animation too.

when i bought it, it was made using lightwave 7.5 so it's not using all the new tools available in lightwave 9.31 but all of the tools in 7.5 ARE still available in 9.31 s no big deal.
the intro to lightwave vids total up to around 20+ hours if my memory is correct....err someone put me right if i have made an error on that!

cresshead
12-14-2007, 04:01 AM
for a good structured lerning of lightwave then the inside lightwave books are really good...they're around the $40 mark

Inside Lightwave: v. 9 (Inside) (Paperback)
also note that come with a dvd disc with the sample lightwave models and scenes PLUS around 5 hours of video training too.

cresshead
12-14-2007, 04:06 AM
also:- check out simply lightwave
http://www.simplylightwave.com/

also 3d garage:-
http://www.3dgarage.com/p-30-lightwave-v9-signature-courseware.aspx

cresshead
12-14-2007, 04:07 AM
also kurv studio too..thay have a wide rangle of very reasonably price training material on lightwave.
http://www.kurvstudios.com/

akstylish
12-14-2007, 01:22 PM
Wow...thank you for the links. You're so kind^^

archijam
12-14-2007, 01:29 PM
Ah, you think this forum is free. You didn't recieve Cress' invoice yet? ;)

akstylish
12-14-2007, 01:32 PM
I'm willing to pay...lol.

Matt
12-14-2007, 01:33 PM
Not sure if it helps, but as a pure LightWave user, whenever I tried a new demo of 3DSMax with the intention "right I'm gonna learn how to use this" I failed miserably!

I just cannot get on with how it works at all. Same went for Cinema 4D.

Maybe I'm just too used to LightWave now?

archijam
12-14-2007, 02:02 PM
Matt: I wouldn't go that far. Max is quite easy to get around, and while I'm used to texturing in LW, I miss the scaling gizmos of MAX.

Just don't compare to LW modelling, unless you NEED nurbs for whatever reason. I could not be forced to model in max. ALL max users I know model in Autocad (arch viz). MAX references acad directly, that's the main plus.

AbnRanger
12-20-2007, 04:38 PM
I'm willing to pay...lol.
What course is this specifically(650hrs @ $4k+), if I may dare to ask?
If it's not an accredited college course...don't pay that. It may be a good product, but you can certainly take advantage of the vast amount of inexpensive video training available...gnomon.com is a good source of top notch instruction delivered on DVD.

The second question is...and it's most important...what do you plan to do once you've gone through all the training and feel rather competent? Are you looking to find work at certain studios, or do you plan to freelance?
If it's the first, then Max is certainly more advantageous because many studios will naturally choose a prospect who is already proficient in the software they are using over someone who is not. Some just don't have the liberty of waiting for you to get up to speed. So, being proficient in Max or Maya makes it much easier to find work since the pool is much larger than LW or C4D.
If it's the second, then Lightwave would make better sense because it offers considerably more capability for the dollar...and should you grow into a small studio, it's certainly easier for you to buy additional seats (just think of adding 4 seats of Max ($14000). With LW undergoing such a massive re-write, it may seem like little is being done, but the changes will be much more profound than you will find in upgrades for packages like Maya or Max.

bobakabob
12-20-2007, 05:42 PM
Not sure if it helps, but as a pure LightWave user, whenever I tried a new demo of 3DSMax with the intention "right I'm gonna learn how to use this" I failed miserably!

I just cannot get on with how it works at all. Same went for Cinema 4D.

Maybe I'm just too used to LightWave now?


Possibly... the older you get the harder it is to negotiate such steep learning curves. But Lightwave really is more artist friendly. For all its faults there are times when you forget you're working in it.

I started out with Max and found it an ugly clunky inspiration killer. I used to find it amusing that people would fork out over 3000 quid for an app they couldn't or didn't want to model in and so forked out even more for Rhino.

RTSchramm
12-23-2007, 01:33 PM
Has anyone looked into Blender? Its interface is a bit weird, but its extremely powerfull and FREE. Has excellent liquid effects, node-base shading and scene setup and compositing, etc.

Rich

cresshead
12-23-2007, 01:46 PM
yup sure have looked at blender...but THAT U.I....well i've had more fun with nightmares over the years!

to be fair the developers ARE working on making the u.i less eccentric and much more approachable by mere mortals!

the app has some great specs..though it still can't do ngons i believe.

RTSchramm
12-23-2007, 05:09 PM
Your right about the U.I. and ngons, but for animating, I use quads mostly anyway. I keep coming but to LW, even after using Max 2008, Maya 2008, Modo 301, Silo 2, and etc. LW does suck at some things, but the renderer is top notch when compared to the other products. Except for Renderman, the LW renderer is the fastest that I used and the quality is awesome. I never used FPrime, so I can't say if it is quicker than LW when rendering animation frames.

Rich

eagleeyed
12-23-2007, 05:41 PM
If you are after some more fantastic video tutorials that are free you cant go past WilliamVaughan's tutorials which are accessable via thread here: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77050

I have learnt so much from these and I highly recommend them.

akstylish
12-24-2007, 01:16 PM
What course is this specifically(650hrs @ $4k+), if I may dare to ask?
If it's not an accredited college course...don't pay that. It may be a good product, but you can certainly take advantage of the vast amount of inexpensive video training available...gnomon.com is a good source of top notch instruction delivered on DVD.

It is a certificate program. But I changed my mind since most people here don't recommend it.


The second question is...and it's most important...what do you plan to do once you've gone through all the training and feel rather competent? Are you looking to find work at certain studios, or do you plan to freelance?
If it's the first, then Max is certainly more advantageous because many studios will naturally choose a prospect who is already proficient in the software they are using over someone who is not. Some just don't have the liberty of waiting for you to get up to speed. So, being proficient in Max or Maya makes it much easier to find work since the pool is much larger than LW or C4D.
If it's the second, then Lightwave would make better sense because it offers considerably more capability for the dollar...and should you grow into a small studio, it's certainly easier for you to buy additional seats (just think of adding 4 seats of Max ($14000). With LW undergoing such a massive re-write, it may seem like little is being done, but the changes will be much more profound than you will find in upgrades for packages like Maya or Max.

Actually...I'm learning this as a hobby.:)

akstylish
12-24-2007, 01:23 PM
@Cress: I bought introduction+animation DVD from splinegod, but it was full with scratches and the sound quality is so bad I can hardly hear the narrator! I sent an email to him several days ago but he didn't reply. I feel like I'm swindled. :(

cresshead
12-24-2007, 01:30 PM
well it is christmas so larry maybe away on holiday...i'm sure when he gets to read your email he'll post off another disc to you..hang in there!...
the intro training is good.

steve g

AbnRanger
12-24-2007, 04:45 PM
For all the rough edges in LW, it's native Render and FPrime go along way to make up for it. With Nodal, LW's materials are more advanced than Max, and having the capability to watch your render update live, in near real time, with FPrime is something you still can't do in Max, and may not be able to for some time. For that matter, with all the wiz-bang features XSI users boast about...they don't have anything like FPrime either.

By the time you get comfortable in LW, many of these rough edges will likely have been addressed. By the time we get to LW 11, it will probably be a much different creature and generating alot of buzz. I really like Modo, but in the grand scheme of things, I think LW has a shorter path to being the latest cutting-edge, full-featured 3D application among the 2. Luxology still has to develop a Character Animation system, a Dynamics system, Particles, etc....no small task. LW merely needs to upgrade and refine what it already has.

If Newtek integrates Layout and Modeler together, which is what I hope they do, and brings it's mesh editing up to speed with that of Max, XSI, and Modo...that in itself will help bring it back into serious contention with the competition. Good things are in store, I do believe.

By the way, here's some training that just might be your cup of tea:
http://gnomonology.com/group/20
http://puffandlarkin.com/lightwave/tutorials/character_modelling/
http://www.3dgarage.com/

For what it's worth, Dan Ablan's training is HIGHLY recommended. His teaching style is thorough and easy to follow along without boring you to sleep. I think you can download a few free videos to see for yourself.

AbnRanger
12-24-2007, 05:08 PM
Matt: I wouldn't go that far. Max is quite easy to get around, and while I'm used to texturing in LW, I miss the scaling gizmos of MAX.

Just don't compare to LW modelling, unless you NEED nurbs for whatever reason. I could not be forced to model in max. ALL max users I know model in Autocad (arch viz). MAX references acad directly, that's the main plus.As much as I like LW, Max is hands down the better modeler between the 2 at the moment...especially with Max 2008. The sub-d and viewport performance is way ahead of LW's modeler. It also picked up a handy interactive tool found in XSI...that's the interactive sub-object selection. What ever element your cursor hovers over, it automatically switches to that mode...vertices/points, edges, poly's. It has great snapping tools, and I actually prefer having a transform gizmo showing me the exact orientation,etc. Throw in Polyboost...and modeling is gravy.
I expect LW to do some catching up though, within the next full upgrade.

Stooch
12-25-2007, 02:09 PM
Yes. Love the text in LW. I don't know why no one else does it. No wild guesses as to the function of the button. No squinting to see the difference between a squigly with 2 slashes through it, a squigly with 3 slashes, and a slash with a squigly through it.

maya does text. have you tried to create your own buttons? you know you can completely edit any button in maya including adding your own icons or just typing text right? you are kind of stuck in lw though.

Stooch
12-25-2007, 02:12 PM
I agree totally. Everything I wanted to do seemed to be a minimum of two clicks and a drag away from what I'd just done. Bleh.

and i love how everything in lw only takes one click!
but then you need to make 3-4 more clicks. and then you realize that you have to do this sequence to 120 items. although other items seem to share settings but not others. so you have to keep track of that too. and then you import a complex setup into another scene and find that all the clicking you just did just got broken, so you go back and have to tediously fix everything with ... you guessed it... alot more clicking. oh yeah and sometimes one property window needs to be closed even to resume clicking around.

moral of the story? everyone has complaints.

Cageman
12-25-2007, 03:34 PM
maya does text. have you tried to create your own buttons? you know you can completely edit any button in maya including adding your own icons or just typing text right? you are kind of stuck in lw though.

Correct, but honestly, Mayas interface wasn't really designed to handle text as good as it handles icons. I think there is a limit to 6 visible characters if you for some reason want to use text instead of an icon. I know that I don't like the text implementation at all in Maya, and it is far from as good as in other apps.

But yeah... you are kind of stuck in LW when it comes to anything realated to UI... a minor gripe, but oh boy I would like to have similar customization I have in Maya...

cresshead
12-25-2007, 05:58 PM
of course with maya you don't have to use the interface....you could just use the hotbox.

the idea of 'shelves' is pretty cool mind ya..and something like building your own tabs over in lightwave.

Stooch
12-25-2007, 10:25 PM
Correct, but honestly, Mayas interface wasn't really designed to handle text as good as it handles icons. I think there is a limit to 6 visible characters if you for some reason want to use text instead of an icon. I know that I don't like the text implementation at all in Maya, and it is far from as good as in other apps.

But yeah... you are kind of stuck in LW when it comes to anything realated to UI... a minor gripe, but oh boy I would like to have similar customization I have in Maya...
yeah the workaround is to create an image with text on it :) lol.

Cageman
12-26-2007, 02:33 AM
yeah the workaround is to create an image with text on it :) lol.

Haha... now that's elite! :)

cresshead
12-26-2007, 03:16 AM
yeah the workaround is to create an image with text on it :) lol.


to be fair, the 'king of workarounds' is probably lightwave :devil:

ducks for cover even though it's the season of good will to all men!:D

akstylish
01-07-2008, 08:53 PM
Sorry for the bump, but I returned Larry's DVD one week ago with the email telling him to let me know when he got it. Still no answer. I haven't touched LW since I returned it. Well, I've watched several free tutorials online, but that's about it. Why did he send me a DVD full of scratches and with files in wrong folders from the beginning??? I paid frigging half a G for it!! Now I'm getting pissed off. :(

Dexter2999
01-07-2008, 09:05 PM
Bad form to air dirty laundry in the public forum.

Give him time. Larry will make good on it. In addition to selling the training stuff he is also an industry professional. He very well could be involved in a project that is consuming his time.

akstylish
01-07-2008, 09:32 PM
Bad form to air dirty laundry in the public forum.

Give him time. Larry will make good on it. In addition to selling the training stuff he is also an industry professional. He very well could be involved in a project that is consuming his time.

That does NOT explain why my DVD had scratches like it's been used for years.

But I do apologize for posting in the wrong forum. I'll zip it now. :X

Steamthrower
01-08-2008, 07:07 AM
That does NOT explain why my DVD had scratches like it's been used for years.

But I do apologize for posting in the wrong forum. I'll zip it now. :X

Wrong forum? What about the forum at all?

Larry is one of the foremost users/proponents of Lightwave there is. I seriously doubt that he is evilly cackling behind his desk recycling DVDs and cracking his fingers.

Stooch
01-08-2008, 04:44 PM
I seriously doubt that he is evilly cackling behind his desk recycling DVDs and cracking his fingers.

Why not? Seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

*cackles*

"crack"

akstylish
01-08-2008, 10:09 PM
Wrong forum? What about the forum at all?

Larry is one of the foremost users/proponents of Lightwave there is. I seriously doubt that he is evilly cackling behind his desk recycling DVDs and cracking his fingers.

OK. Sorry for complaining at the wrong peoeple...fixed.:)

But I just can't help but object to your reply. Even if he did send me a fresh one, that can't be an excuse because it came with a thin plastic case in an envelope...there was no protection whatsoever.
If the problem was just the scratches, I wouldn't have cared about it. But some of the tutorials were broken, and some files were in wrong folders. That is, lots of links were broken in the web-based tutorial.
I see he's busy doing other stuff and all, but he's still a seller and responsible for the quality of his products. I mean, all he needs to do is put the files into the daggum DVD, which should take no more than 30 minutes, and he can't even do that right! He can't because he's busy? What an excuse! If he is THAT busy, he should stop selling stuff.

Dexter2999
01-08-2008, 11:07 PM
Well, it looks like you are dissatisfied with the product. If you listed your problems with the product and returned the disk requesting a refund perhaps you will get just that, depending on Larry's return policy.

But it appears you are dissatisfied with the product and wait time involved in getting the situation resolved. Being that there is a deal of money involved this adds to your aggravation. Going on this, your posts seem to read that they start off in one place and end on what nears a personal attack.

I don't think you will find many people in the Lightwave community that will be sympathetic to cries of "Larry ripped me off" or "Larry's courses are junk". The fact is he is a wealth of knowledge and he doesn't just sell that knowledge. He actively peruses the boards helping others out. Sometimes that help points them to one of his products, sometimes he just lays it out there. To be honest most of the time what he says is so advanced it goes right over my head.

I have a few of his disks myself. I have the one for modeling a head from splines, endomorphs and weightmaps three disk set. Of those four disks I had one Quicktime that would not play and it was available for download. Every disk I have is crammed with so much information I have to watch them over and over. I will admit that I have not tried the links so I can't attest to how valid they are. What I can say is I got my moneys worth.

In the end, I would say, I hope you find a happy resolution to this. Until then, I would caution you to show a little more temperance in your posts.

akstylish
01-08-2008, 11:58 PM
I don't think you will find many people in the Lightwave community that will be sympathetic to cries of "Larry ripped me off" or "Larry's courses are junk".

First, I didn't say anything even remotely resembling "his tutorials suck." Second, I assumed he's a great lw guru because many ppl here say so, so I don't care if ppl here are sympathetic or not - I'm just one of the few unlucky guys, if any, who got a product in poor condition. The problem is HOW poor the condition is, and it can't just be a mistake.


I have a few of his disks myself. I have the one for modeling a head from splines, endomorphs and weightmaps three disk set. Of those four disks I had one Quicktime that would not play and it was available for download. Every disk I have is crammed with so much information I have to watch them over and over. I will admit that I have not tried the links so I can't attest to how valid they are. What I can say is I got my moneys worth.

Like I said, I have no doubt his tutorials themselves are great.


In the end, I would say, I hope you find a happy resolution to this. Until then, I would caution you to show a little more temperance in your posts.

I guess saying he didn't carefully make the prouct and should stop selling is what made you think I have no self-control, is it right? If you read my posts carefully, you should know he did something wrong big enough to deserve a COMPLAINT, not a personal attack.

RTSchramm
01-14-2008, 03:58 PM
As far as the scratches on the DVD, It's most likely that Larry didn't press the DVD hard enough to make it lock on the spindle, so the DVD sled around in the DVD case as the packaged was handled and then got scratched up. I had that happen to one once on a school project.

I also had a problem with a DVD LW course, but the author promptly replaced the defective DVD.

Rich

Dexter2999
01-14-2008, 06:43 PM
That could be what happened...

It also assumes Larry makes these himself and not have them mass produced by a company. Which would also explain why it isn't an easy fix when something has a typo in a link or is filed wrong. If he payed up front for a run of 1000 and there was a mistake, it doesn't make sense for Larry to eat that cost, rather than just sell them and make fixes available online.

Quality assurance, sure that he has to cover. Can't excuse a disk that arrives damaged, you just make good on it.