PDA

View Full Version : What is the Hyper voxel particle limit ????



SaturnX
11-22-2007, 05:27 AM
Hi...
I have 95000 points in my scene so far...
About 70% of the points are being used for Sprites/HVs.

Is there a limit on the point count for Hypervoxels?
i ask becasue layout keeps crashing at render time, when i try to output a frame.
When i delete some points, it renders fine again.

Can i adjust the point/HV limit ?
I thought the particle limit was 1million or something?

Need input fast.
Thanks.

SaturnX
11-22-2007, 06:16 AM
I noticed that the hypervoxels will still display in realtime, despite the fact they crash Layout at render time.

Is this a HV limit as opposed to a particle limit.
The points im using for the HVs, are not technically particles btw.
Just object point clusters for the HVs.
Around 50-55k of points are being used for Sprite HVs so far.
Seems to be about as far as i can go.

SaturnX
11-22-2007, 06:42 AM
Did a quick test, with a particle emitter.
I can knock out 200,000 particles easily... with HV sprites applied using a sprite clipmap image. It Seems to work ok.

I also tried knocking up 3 object point clusters... totalling 150k in layout.
Added sprite HVs with clipmaps... and they seem to render out ok aswell.


So im baffled why my scene in question refuses to render beyond approx 60,000 points of HV sprites.
i have 421 objects so far in the scene. Most of which are tree trunk objects, with point clusters attached to them. The tree trunks are parented to nulls... and the hierarchy is cloned all over the scene. But i seem to be getting to the point were, when i clone another hierarchy, layout crashes at render time... and refuses to render another frame, until i go maybe 300 points or so back down again. then it renders ok again.
The total number of points in the scene right now is only 95,326.
Like i said before, about 70% of which is Sprite HVs applied to object point clusters.

SaturnX
11-22-2007, 06:53 AM
When i clone trees up to alittle over 80k+ points in the scene... Layout crashes at render time.
Anything below 80k points, Layout renders fine.

I'm baffled.

prometheus
11-22-2007, 07:35 AM
hmm..I think I have come close to 1 million, but that is hypervoxels on points
maybe 800 000 to 900 000.

it seems to work ok on particles aswell but the system gets sluggish
when reaching something around 350 000 particles

nvidia quadro fx 1100, 2 gig ram, p4 3 ghz.

you might wanna check some topics on spinquad on applying hv to deformed objects.

http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17482&highlight=phamarus

I go by a different name over there,(phamarus) split personality you know:)

some test with displacements on subsurface divided objects and how to controll point amount hypervoxels when setting the subsurface division display.

and heres an image

SaturnX
11-22-2007, 08:00 AM
This is so frustrating.
Its feeling more and more like i have a bug issue.

I can render HV sprites via particles and object point clusters, well above 200,000 points. Thats easy.

But my scene refuses to render a frame when my object point cluster count using HV sprites... exceeds around 60k.
Could it be a problem with the amount of cloned objects? The hierarchy, the parented point clustered objects ?? Too much for lw to handle at render time?
Ive tried tickng off HVs that i dont see within the camera frame at render. Does no good. Ive tried turning off objects i dont see etc, still doesnt change anything. Ive played around with render settings etc... but no change.
The only thing that is working and allows layout to render a frame, is to cut back by about 200 points on the object clusters using HV sprites.

I dont know what to try next.
I wish i discovered this 2 weeks ago!

SaturnX
11-22-2007, 08:01 AM
hmm..I think I have come close to 1 million, but that is hypervoxels on points
maybe 800 000 to 900 000.

it seems to work ok on particles aswell but the system gets sluggish
when reaching something around 350 000 particles

nvidia quadro fx 1100, 2 gig ram, p4 3 ghz.

you might wanna check some topics on spinquad on applying hv to deformed objects.

http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17482&highlight=phamarus

I go by a different name over there,(phamarus) split personality you know:)

some test with displacements on subsurface divided objects and how to controll point amount hypervoxels when setting the subsurface division display.

and heres an image

Will check your thread now, thanks.

SaturnX
11-22-2007, 08:57 AM
Ok, I did a test.
I created a scene, and setup one tree rig.
It consists of the tree trunk object, and two point cluster layers. Each point cluster being approx 80 points each.
HV sprites (clipmap images) are applied to the point cluster layers.
The 3 object layers are then parented to a null object.
This scene renders fine. The point count is around 400 points.

So i clone the hierarchy 160 times.
this gives me 160 trees. the scene point count is now 60,000 points.
The scene still renders fine, with 160 tree setups.

I pump up the number of trees to 185 cloned hierarchies.
The scene point count is now 70,000 points.
The scene still renders ok.


At 210 trees in the scene.... point count equalling 79590
Layout crashes on render.
In the actual project im working on, thats about the same point count i hit before it crashes on render also.


So i dont know what the issue is.
Is it an HV sprite problem... or is it the fact that i have cloned hierarchies in the scene, with HV sprites attached to the layers... and this many of them... that is crashing layout?



PS: the textured sprites are only 256x256 and 300x300

BeeVee
11-22-2007, 09:02 AM
Tell us a bit about your machine and what version of LightWave you're using?

B

SaturnX
11-22-2007, 09:10 AM
Hi Beevee...

Some comp specs are as follows...
- Core2duo 6700
- 2gigs ram
- Nvidia GF7900 (forceware v163.75)
- WinXP SP2
- DirectX v9.0C (nov07)

Lightwave version is: v9.3.1 (build 1291 - latest OB Gold master)

SaturnX
11-23-2007, 08:03 AM
OK Guys.

I made a test scene, with a similar setup of tree rig.

It's basically one scene, but with 4 variations.

- Tree_HV_Test.lws is just the tree hierarchy with clipmap HVs, and nothing more.
Essentially one tree object and one point cluster object for the HVs, parented
to a null. The Point count is 300.

- Tree_HV_Test_02.lws is the tree setup, but cloned 170 times.
The point count now being 51000

- Tree_HV_Test_03.lws is the tree setup, now cloned 197 times. The point count is 59100 (It still renders)

- Tree_HV_Test_04.lws has the Tree setup 200 times... (HIT F9) <CRASH>
The point count was exactly 60000

Can you guys check out this scene file, and see what the cause is?

BeeVee
11-23-2007, 08:19 AM
You definitely need to use a content directory first off, and I'm looking at the scene...

B
PS. What 3rd party cells texture are you using?

SaturnX
11-23-2007, 08:34 AM
Sorry, the hypertexture should be set on none.

i dont know why the cells thing always comes on as default. heh


And a content directory is a good idea ;)

SaturnX
11-23-2007, 08:43 AM
Hi Beevee

I updated the scene files.
Sorry about that. ... No more cell hypertexture

BeeVee
11-23-2007, 09:08 AM
I've made a forest of 200 trees that renders fine on my machine so I wonder if it was the fact that the trees were all on top of one another?

B

SaturnX
11-23-2007, 09:29 AM
Hi again
I take it then, the crash test scene with 200 cloned tree rigs, rendered ok for you without crashing?
(nice image btw hehe)

I made this scene up to try and illustrate whats happening in my actual project scene. I cant send the actual project scene (as ever) its a commercial job.
The project scene has trees spread over a wide area. So they are not on top of one another.
i cannot render beyond a certain point in layout without it crashing.

I replicated this in the test scene i just posted.
At least, it crashes out on my machine.
Both the point count is similar and the rig setup count is similar... to when the actual project scene crashes on render.

We have three computers here, and the project scene renders the same on all three. It crashes. One computer has the original v9.0 on it. And it to does the same.

Ive decided to go ahead and keep cloning trees. No time to come up with another game plan for now.
I think, im going to have to deactivate the HVs i wont see in a shot, and bring them down enough that i can get a render knocked out.
The problem being, 100s of trees is going to turn potentially into 1000s.
So deactivating HVs is going to hurt. Simply ticking HVs off doesnt seem to have any affect. Is it possible to group HVs ?


PS: what computer specs did you try the scene on? Was it 64bit or 32bit?
this is very frustrating.

daforum
11-23-2007, 10:20 AM
Can you tell us how you made these amazing looking images; and do you have any movies of them you can post here?

daforum
11-23-2007, 10:22 AM
hmm..I think I have come close to 1 million, but that is hypervoxels on points
maybe 800 000 to 900 000.

it seems to work ok on particles aswell but the system gets sluggish
when reaching something around 350 000 particles

nvidia quadro fx 1100, 2 gig ram, p4 3 ghz.

you might wanna check some topics on spinquad on applying hv to deformed objects.

http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17482&highlight=phamarus

I go by a different name over there,(phamarus) split personality you know:)

some test with displacements on subsurface divided objects and how to controll point amount hypervoxels when setting the subsurface division display.

and heres an image

Can you tell us how you made these amazing looking images; and do you have any movies of them you can post here?

prometheus
11-24-2007, 03:43 PM
Can you tell us how you made these amazing looking images; and do you have any movies of them you can post here?

Ohh..I almost miss your message here, thought I should get email when replys are posted, but that donīt work all the time thou.

Anyway, I think I have described a lot how itīs done in that thread, but
I have plans on putting tutorials up for some of this, when I get my lazy butt goin.

its mainly hypervoxels applied directly on to a simple object, in this case a halfe sphere, so just create a ball in modeler maybe 50 cm radius and then delete the button halve, but itīs not really necessary cool effects can be achieved with lots of different subsurface divided geometry, just experiment and play around.

in layout I open the properties panel for that object and hit the displacement tab and assign a procedural texture that has built in animation like ripple.
it takes a little tweaking to get a nice flowing motion.

after that I just apply sprite hypervoxels, first it will look crap of course
the trick is use the display subpatch level to raise the objects geometry and points so it looks like there is a lot of particles(but we are dealing with points directly not particles applied on object)

so Itīs about having a decent graphics card cause it is computer intense raising subpatch levels this high.

As I sad I hope to get a tutorial up soon, also showing how to use it after cloth dynamics are applied, a little trickier cause you have to save out an md motion and reload and use specific playback parameters.

Otherwise for now you have to check that thread again, there is a small sample mov on one of my post, very low quality and no color applied on that one just showing the movement and density of the hv applied.

I will get back soon and see if I can post some more samples, and also try and make a video tute on it.

prometheus
11-25-2007, 08:31 AM
Iīm posting a little mov clip of hv shaded displaced geometry on the general techniques tips and tricks thread.
hopefully I will get some video tutorials up soon.

SaturnX
11-29-2007, 04:33 AM
I've made a forest of 200 trees that renders fine on my machine so I wonder if it was the fact that the trees were all on top of one another?

B

Hi beevee
Did you do a straight render from the test scene, before making any changes?
And if so, did it crash or not crash?

Fact of the matter is at this time, on my end, the project we're working on crashes on LW9.3.1.
It also crashes on the other two computers with 9.3.
In the actual project scene, it has proved nothing short of a nightmare to utilise HVs in the scene. Could it be the hierarachies or the object point clusters causing problems for sprite HVs at render time?

We've tried to make do by severely limiting the amount of trees we have in the scene, to allow for rendering etc... but its proving painful.

That and the fact that managing so many objects and hierarchies in the scene, especially HVs, is proving painful to work with. Is it possible to adjust various HV settings all at the same time ?
I'm working today like i would have 6 yrs ago.
Where is fundamental progress in managing layout content?

SaturnX
11-29-2007, 04:40 AM
Ok, we have done alot more experimenting...

And it would appear that Lightwave will not render beyond approx 200 objects with HV sprites applied to them.

Lightwave will also not render beyond 200 particle emitters, with HV sprites applied to them.

So this seems like a real problem.
Ive tested this on 3 machines, with 9.3.1 and 9.3
Im on 32bit LW. I have no idea whether this issue exists on LW64.

Try creating a new scene.
Add a particle emitter and apply HV sprites.
Clone the emitter 190-195 times... it should render ok.
But when you have the emitter cloned beyond say 200.... LW will most probably crash.

So it seems more likely its an object limit with HVs applied, rather than the HVs themselves being the problem?

SaturnX
11-29-2007, 05:11 AM
I had a quick look in the config files, just on the off chance there might have been a limit set on this stuff... but didnt see anything. oh well.