PDA

View Full Version : "UnParent Bone" Doesn't Work?



Giacomo99
11-18-2007, 05:49 AM
Hello-

I was just fooling around with the bone tools and I tried to use "UnParent Bone" to detach a bone from the model it was created to.

Well, the bone's position shifts off to a random location (centered at origin, but at about -10 feet on the Y-axis), but the bone also stays parented to the model.

This is hardly a fatal flaw--I can imagine several workarounds, but...WTF? Why does the tool even exist, since it doesn't seem to work at all? Please advise.

PS. Also, what's up with "undo" not working on any bone tools?

Giacomo99
11-18-2007, 06:02 AM
Addendum: actually, it seems that ever moving the model's pivot point from 0,0,0 really screws things up if you plan on using the bone tools in Layout.

I gotta say, this is getting kind of ridiculous. For about two years now, I've been intermittently trying to figure out basic FK-rigging for a human figure so I can pose a model for stills in such a way that the joints won't collapse. And it's just impossible--there's crap like this popping up every five minutes, it seems.

evenflcw
11-18-2007, 09:30 AM
Undo only works for transformation, ie move, rotate and scale. Period.

Bones cannot exist independent of objects. Period.

BoneTools got integrated and consequently never had the chance to go through enough tests and development cycles by a more concerned 3rd party (history has shown NT seldom updates integrated tools). Period.

Giacomo99
11-18-2007, 12:04 PM
Bones cannot exist independent of objects. Period.

Yeah. Actually, up until now my attempts at rigging all involved Skelegons, until it became apparent that the rotation-axis issues with Skelegons are so pervasive that one's probably better off doing any complex rigging in Layout. But: Skelegon-created bones can, in fact, exist independent of any object.

evenflcw
11-18-2007, 12:31 PM
Skelegon-created bones can, in fact, exist independent of any object.

Hu? Not sure what you mean. Skelegons are really just a special type of polygons. They hold no properties in common with Layouts bones. And they come packaged inside an LWO. So even if I don't think you can equal them to bones, how are they ever independent? Also, not the distinction between object and mesh. Don't know why I bother discussing this, as the answer is purely philosophical or whatever.

Giacomo99
11-18-2007, 02:13 PM
Well, up until recently I assumed Skelegon-created bones were the same as Layout-created bones. Only it seems they're not: the Setup tools don't seem to recognize them. And, in regard to your philosophical assertion--it's possible to have Skelegon-created bones that aren't attached to any geometry. (The fact they were created as polygons seems incidental to me.)

evenflcw
11-18-2007, 04:24 PM
Ahem, first of all let me apologise. It seems I read your last post perhaps abit too fast. I read "skelegon-created bones" more as just "skelegons". Still I believe nothing I wrote is false.


...it's possible to have Skelegon-created bones that aren't attached to any geometry.

Skelegon-created bones can, in fact, exist independent of any object.
These two statements are not equal!

The first states bones can exist without a mesh. This is true. In those cases they will be children of a null or an empty mesh (both referred to as "objects" in layout;Also technically the mesh wouldn't be empty as there would still be the skelegons. Modeler doesn't save empty layers!). The second state that bones can exist without an object as top level parent. This is not possible to my knowledge and experience. A bone can only be created and exist as a child of an object or another bone. Although many wish it to be otherwise.



Well, up until recently I assumed Skelegon-created bones were the same as Layout-created bones. Only it seems they're not: the Setup tools don't seem to recognize them.
Very very odd. Naturally skelegon-created bones should be equal to any other bones. Could you perhaps give us/me a step by step instruction to recreate this very odd situation?

Giacomo99
11-19-2007, 12:40 PM
I'll do my best. In fact, once I get this all sorted, I'd like to write a long tutorial on using bones in Lightwave--most of the material I've found so far is either completely entry-level (Dan Ablan) or so high-end as to be completely beyond me (Larry Schultz.)

adamredwoods
11-19-2007, 01:25 PM
Yeah. Actually, up until now my attempts at rigging all involved Skelegons, until it became apparent that the rotation-axis issues with Skelegons are so pervasive that one's probably better off doing any complex rigging in Layout.

Is this why people don't build skelegons in Modeler? I always have and I find it very easy to use. To update your changes in modeler to layout, use Dodgy's update skelegons plugin.

No undo in Layout makes BoneTools next to worthless.

evenflcw
11-19-2007, 02:10 PM
Is this why people don't build skelegons in Modeler? I always have and I find it very easy to use. To update your changes in modeler to layout, use Dodgy's update skelegons plugin.

No undo in Layout makes BoneTools next to worthless.

The main reason why I don't use skelegons is simply because they aren't bones! You don't have full control of parenting (skelegon needs to be merged), getting the orientation right upon creation or after the fact is akward, you cannot rig in Modeler and last but not least working with bones in Layout is easy enough (with or without the new-ish BoneTools).

If you don't use BoneTools (mostly scripts anyway) you'll know what you're doing and undoing mistakes/tests will be easy.

adamredwoods
11-19-2007, 02:57 PM
I always found moving the yellow adjust line in Layout inaccurate and it tends to drift. A User Interface travesty.

I'll agree that rotation adjustments are awful in modeler, along with the parenting issue. I guess a mixture between the two is best.

Giacomo99
11-19-2007, 06:05 PM
Yeah, I agree that the yellow adjust line can be problematic, but the fact is that I've never successfully rigged a full human with Skelegons--there's always been a finger or something rotating at 45 degrees from where it should.

The HUGE advantages Layout offers for bone setups are two: 1) one can work with a fully shaded model while rigging, which for me makes the process about a million times more interactive, and 2) it's seldom necessary to adjust bone rotations, which is a 100% guaranteed nightmare with a complex rig using Skelegons.

I spent the last weekend learning the Layout Bone Tools, and I'm suddenly much more optimistic about rigging in general. Hopefully I'll get a chance to write a tutorial or white paper on the topic, since what I've learned doesn't seem to be well documented (or else is completely self-evident to everyone but me...:P)