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Caveboy
07-02-2003, 04:02 PM
Howcome Lightwave is not on the Highend 3D website?

Looks like ALL of the major 3d apps are there:

Maya

XSI

Soft(image)

. . . 3ds Max

but no Lightwave.

Has anyone (from Newtek) ever tried to get Lightwave on the site?

Just curious.

Elmar Moelzer
07-02-2003, 06:53 PM
Howcome Lightwave is not on the Highend 3D website?
I guess it is because Newtek does not pay them for that.
CU
Elmar

Valter
07-02-2003, 11:26 PM
I can't understand why some guys think that LW is a High-End 3d package.

I'll thank if someone can explain.
I feel lw could be the best of all 3d package. But NT need work very hard to do it. And fatally will need a rewrite.

Particularly I hate lw to work complex/heavy/large scenes.


cheers

takkun
07-03-2003, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Valter
I can't understand why some guys think that LW is a High-End 3d package.

I'll thank if someone can explain.
I feel lw could be the best of all 3d package. But NT need work very hard to do it. And fatally will need a rewrite.

Particularly I hate lw to work complex/heavy/large scenes.


cheers It's been used in many Hollywood films and TV series'. Since it has been used extensively in a good number of "high-profile" productions with "high-quality" results, some might consider it to be "high-end". Yet from a feature and price perspective, Lightwave is seen as a "mid-end" program.

It's very funny that people get upset that Lightwave isn't on highend3d.com. For starters, it's not a very good site, the design is awful and the forums are a mess. Secondly, it's very similar to flay.com so I don't see what use it would be to have lightwave on there. Thirdly, people act like a program isn't high-end unless it's on that site, like they hold the exclusive right to label a package "high-end". :rolleyes: Anyways, Lightwave could be on highend3d.com tomorrow if Newtek wanted to shell out the money to add them to the site (that's what discreet did not too long ago) but personally, I think it would be a horrible waste of money.

mattclary
07-03-2003, 09:30 AM
Geeeese! This topic again? :rolleyes:

cresshead
07-03-2003, 02:49 PM
lightwave is in fact "no-end" not hi end or low end...
no - end...

as in:
"i use it for no end of projects..."
"no end of features in lightwave straight out the box"
"is there ""no end"" to the things i can make with lightwave?"
" is there no- end to the film credits for lightwave?"
"no-end to the surpport from newtek...and free"
"no end of cgi on t.v is actually done in lightwave"
"no endless scratching of heads here..just make that model excellent and fast"

okay...any more no enders?

steve g

kevman3d
07-04-2003, 01:43 AM
Here's the same discussion that went on in the last forum system:

http://forums.newtek.com/discus/messages/2/29358.html?

Elmar Moelzer
07-04-2003, 09:36 PM
Takkun, I fully and wholeheartedly agree.
Valter, you have never used MAX with large scenes, have you?
CU
Elmar

hrgiger
07-05-2003, 03:45 PM
There is no official "High-end" status. It's a bull$hit term.

cresshead
07-05-2003, 04:55 PM
YUP..pigeon holes for software...oh brother..how boring..

mental ray and renderman can make disgusting renders in the "right" hands....

the end point is the renders..either stills or t.v/film...

lightwave was used on the "highest" grossing film in the history of cinematic releases..if anything could make "any 3d app" hi end that would....and photoreal btw...

yawn yawn!

steve g

Valter
07-05-2003, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by Elmar Moelzer
Takkun, I fully and wholeheartedly agree.
Valter, you have never used MAX with large scenes, have you?
CU
Elmar

:) No I didn't. I never used max with large scene and I have know that max is terrible with large scenes.

But I don't think good idea to compare LW and MAX. LW is better for me. I like of amount of tools available in the max package.

I can't see lw7.5 like a highend software. sorry.
I really hope lw8 will be released with many new features. Maybe lw8 come out a highend 3d package.

cheers

kevman3d
07-06-2003, 12:47 AM
I Agree with HRG on the term 'Highend' - Personally, I prefer to refer to levels of software packages as 'Thats my kinda pricetag!' to 'That's just a tad too expensive' up to the 'I could buy a small island for that!' level. :)

Elmar Moelzer
07-06-2003, 05:43 AM
But I don't think good idea to compare LW and MAX. LW is better for me.

I can't see lw7.5 like a highend software. sorry.

This is a bit paradox, dont you think?
First you say that LW is better than MAX, but in the next sentence you say that LW is not high- end, whereas MAX is.
I am not sure I can follow you here...
CU
Elmar

sailor
07-06-2003, 11:29 AM
IMHO bein high end doesnt means anything the only thing eventually that u can try to understand is why is this soft prefered to another in what is considered to be "high end" productions....if we all somewhat agree that ILM wisual effects (for example) are the best that can actually be done we can then pay some attention to the composition of their pipeline...we know they use several tools for their visual effects and we also know that the complexity of the shots can be very different and the needs as well...they mainly use Maya ,Studio Tools and Softimage except for some shots in attack of the clones done with LW (this said they dont say until wich extent they used LW (was it used for rendering? rendering and modeling? knowing that most of sets were done with Maya or Studio tools maybe just a little part of it was done in LW ...AFAIK most of the hard surfacing modeling (spaceships and the like ) are done with Studio Tools (another Alias product). As modeler there are somethings that i am aware of...NURBS are far from being dead (no mattre how often u say that u prefer Subdivision surfaces and how good they are (i agree) we are not dictating the companies what they choose but rather they hire the qualified people in the soft THEY choose)and in this side LW is just useless....if many LW modelers try to replicate some cool car models dont forget that the REAL THING was done using Nurbs for sure and using Studio Tools very often (you can have a look at the chrysler site and look into the design process page http://www.chrysler.com/design/vehicle_design/process

as a conclusion: if u want to know if Your software is high end or not try to find out if what u agree to consider as High end industry uses it (by high end i'm talkin about bein honest and what u consider as the top notch movie makers, car makers and any industry using 3d at a high level)...

:) that could be a good way to know if your soft is "high end" instead of just checkin in a self called "highend3d" website

hrgiger
07-06-2003, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by CIM
Simple:

LW, Max, C4D = mid-end
Maya, XSI = high-end



Thanks for your opinion CIM.

And last time I checked, Lightwave offered a full toolset out of the box. I also seem to remember seeing a plethora of plug-ins and lscripts. I guess to you that would qualify as high end.

If you're going to say that if it's used in a major production house or used for film or television, I guess that would mean Lightwave is high-end as well.

But if you're talking about price, then yes, you're right, Lightwave is not high end. I guess they forgot to add the elitist pricing. Damn them.

There's no book or even official rating that would qualify one software package as high end and another as not.

takkun
07-07-2003, 02:34 AM
EDIT: deleted what I was posted, decided to not make things worse then they already are.

Nicodemus
07-07-2003, 08:26 PM
Ah...Cim...ever the positive word......

On to the topic at hand.

This is such an old topic. Lightwave is not on there because newtek has not paid to be on the site. Max was not on there till discreet bought them and paid to have it on the site.

If highend3d website is the yard stick to measure by then all blender or milkshape would have to do is pay to be on the site and they would fall into the category of being highend.

For the longest time the measure of being highend was weather or not it was used regularly on movies. Well that has changed dramatically. Maya and Softimage were for the longest the only things considered highend. Both because those were the only programs used on movies as well as being exspensive as hell. Both have had to come down in price dramatically because the products that were considered mid range (Lightwave and Max) started incorporating the same kinds of features and functions as the high end packages as well as being alternatives for companies wanting to do the same kinds of work without having to pay thousands and thousands of dollars.

It has been shown time and again that lightwave is a fully capable package for doing highend work. Is it the be all end all....no. But then no package is.....don't agree with that? Show me a movie that used only one package to do it all. You can't so don't even bother burning the brain cells trying.

~L~

Valter
07-07-2003, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by Elmar Moelzer
This is a bit paradox, dont you think?
First you say that LW is better than MAX, but in the next sentence you say that LW is not high- end, whereas MAX is.
I am not sure I can follow you here...
CU
Elmar

I mean that LW is better for my work. I think 3dsmax much more complete toolset than lw, but I don't think 3dsmax a highend package, despite available a great toolset.

I love LW. But I'm not a blind man. I'm learning xsi|exp and I like to see maya, mirai and 3dsmax video tutorials. LW can't be compared to xsi or maya like a highend solution. But this not avoid LW to be used on highend production. Because lw modeler and lw render are great highend features.

LW has a great potential to be a perfect highend solution. When Newtek see that and make a huge improvement ($$$). You'll see LW on the top of high-end produtions and XSI and maya unlimited with a low price.

Cheers


excuse my english

cresshead
07-08-2003, 01:26 PM
cut n pasted:
Show me a movie that used only one package to do it all. You can't so don't even bother burning the brain cells trying.

end cut n past:

well..we're nearly there with jimmy neutron's film....lightwave for modeling,animating and rendering with most character animation done in messiah but rendered in back in lightwave...

so for real hi "end to end" production?

lightwave...[lightwave 6 i believe...]

steve g

sailor
07-08-2003, 02:18 PM
well u have Final Fantasy, almost full Maya

Modeled and animated in Maya

rendered some in Maya some with Renderman

certainly the more ambitious full 3d project ever seen on screen until today...apart from the beautiful "last flight of the osiris"....done by the same team using the same pipeline....

:)

Elmar Moelzer
07-08-2003, 02:30 PM
Well the Maya they used for FF had little in common with the MAYA everyone else can buy, trust me...
CU
Elmar

cresshead
07-08-2003, 02:34 PM
well certainly final fantasy was core maya/renderman but [i hate buts!]///but.......final fantasy had a huge amount of r & d creating tools for hair..maybe maya is "the" hi end app seeing as you can write so much for it with mel if you have a good r n d department
to fill the gaps you need..

i still find lightwave and max more open to the artist than maya although i've maybe not given maya ple a fair chance as yet.

steve g

sailor
07-08-2003, 02:36 PM
and that is the point....there can be different Maya's....while there can only be one LW...this said EVERY tool that exists in LW is in Maya not the opposite...
who can do the most can do the least not the opposite...teh total configurability of Maya is the reason number one it is used in those "high end" productions glad to see you, by your post, emphasized this fact :)

in the other hand i know that Cortina (FF character modeler) used just the out of the box polysmooth workflow for all the charcater modeling so it was just the regular Maya for some of the work...

also agree that in the right hands this could have been done in LW or many other packages with the regular poly/Catmull Clark aproximation workflow...

Also notice that in studios like Square they know in advance they will be using R and D...(is not like they open Maya box install it and suddenly discoover it lacks half the tools in LW !!)this doesnt means anything else apart the fact that they will be dealing with some "high end" problems no one has encounter before in production and for that they will need a "high end" program that allows them to find "high end" solutions so that their "high end " artists can create a "high end" movie...

the thread was about bein or not bein high end...as a conlusion i wanted to say that the words Research, developpment, High end have this in common that they are associated in my mind with the idea of going one step beyond, improvement , taking risks and creating new paths and new ways of thinking the 3d creation...as a Lightwave and Maya modeler i would love to see this words "research and developpement" more often associated with Newtek and LW rather than with Maya and Alias but at the moment we are talking it is not the case...some of you thinks that associating Maya with those words means " this half assed piece of software is useless!! we need some r and D peeps to helps us !!!" while for me it has rather a positive impact: it means that it leads the industry and leads innovation...come on u wont think seriously a second that they are not aware LW is out there no? and the price tag isnt and argument anymore...do u think that those talented artists are so stoopid they use Maya just because of A/W marketing? come on....lets be serious for a second...do i need a second to mention that most of those "high end studios" are not paying full license prices? so what is the argument here? the argument is Newtek please stay in the race and give us a kick *** LW 8

PERIOD

takkun
07-08-2003, 03:21 PM
Here's something to chew on:

Jimmy Neutron:
Box Office Total: $80,865,848
Video Rental Total: $6,390,000
Production Costs: $25,000,000
---------------------------------------
Total Profit: $62,255,848



Final Fantasy-The Spirits Within:
Box Office Total: $31,490,045
Video Rental Total: $5,140,000
Production Costs: $137,000,000
---------------------------------------
Total Profit: $-100,369,955



So, what does "high-end" mean again?



*Jimmy Neutron numbers: Rotten Tomatos (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/JimmyNeutronBoyGenius-1111232/numbers.php) IMDB (http://us.imdb.com/Business?0268397)

*Final Fantasy numbers: Rotten Tomatos (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/FinalFantasyTheSpiritsWithin-1108683/numbers.php) IMDB (http://us.imdb.com/Business?0173840)

sailor
07-08-2003, 03:34 PM
we already know that "high end" doesnt means the number of sales u have made if this is what u mean....The Concorde considered as 20 years in advance when it first flew was stoped 3 weeks ago...i had the chance to see it fly for the last time....an engineering wonder had to stop because of financial issues and chances are that our children wont have the chance to see a supersonic airliner any soon...we are not neutral as 3d artists and eventhough Final Fantasy was a financial disaster i as a 3d artists was totally blown away by the incredible perfomance and the step forward acomplished by the Square team...dont care if it was LW Maya or XSI or whatever...that production was just a fantastic 3d dream...yesterday i had the chance to see the "last fligh of the Osiris" and have to say that the realism reached by those artist left me speachless....so close to perfection...now we can debate script issues and artistic matters but as long as "high end" goes i've never seen personally nothing that deserves the "high end" tag as much as this production

cresshead
07-08-2003, 03:46 PM
maybe hi end should be defined by software leading the way to the next level up from where we are in 3d today...for example we have often seen max adding features that other apps already have such as the more graphical transform n rotate tools from maya...so it can't really be seen as leading the way..but rather following it playing catch up or "me too" adding to the feature list to give it parity with maya..

maya seems quite inovative adding fluid dynamics, cloth and fur quite a while back

lightwave had that killer built in renderer, leading edge modelling tools and radiosity [i think lightwave was first with G.I built into a core 3d app...other than lightscape's radiosity]

steve g

takkun
07-08-2003, 03:57 PM
sailor, Final Flight of the Osiris was very good but I wouldn't say that it was "close to perfection" (by perfection I assume you mean perfect photo-realism, it was very stylized as even the director admitted). Actually, I was more impressed with the Japanese Square team and all the great work they have done (for instance, Final Fantasy X).

My previous comparison of Box office totals was to make the point that a so-called "mid-end" program like Lightwave has been used to make a very successful film that has lead to a successful TV series. If a "mid-end" program can acheive such a feat, then the whole "high-end, mid-end, low-end" arguement is quite pointless.

sailor
07-08-2003, 04:11 PM
nope it isnt pointless if the discussion about highend is about the overall potential of the 3d software in the technical side....for that we have to agree and find a common language...if modeling,texturing and animation techniques are "put to the test" when tryin to achieve photorealism then the one that gets an overall closer feeling of realism can be considered as the best tool...maybe it is not YOUR case but how can some people talk about LW fabulous GI solution (i agree it is a steo to photorealism) talk about LW amazing caustics or HDRI rendering system (again a step forward to amzaing realism) and in the same time not use the most realistic animated images ever seen in a 3d movie as an objective comparison? why suddenly we talk about tickets sold? when people debates with objective arguments someone always bring some strange argument that has barely to do with the post and makes diversion...(make an effort and consider 3d photorealism as the 3d graal) here i'm explicitly puting aside any artistic consideratiuon because that would make the "high end" debate useless as taste is a personal matter...everyday searchers and scientist work to find new ways to represent smoke fire, fluids and more complex phenomenons ...a production making full use of all or almost all of the most complex themes a 3d artist could represent:reality

i will repeat myself: i havent seen among the Full 3d movies out there ANYTHING as close as FF or Final flight of the Osiris to reality...if u have seen something closer i will be glad to have a look but honestly i've never seen anything as perfect as that masterpiece...the only photorealistic shots that really found fantastic were some plane shots in 405 the movie but the challenge of animated human models in a realistic environment is IMHO by far much more complicated to achieve so i wouldnt use that kind of example...i would like you to mention ONE animation with the same kind of challenge in mind...realistic humans in a realistic environment ...give me Only one....:)

or take it another way...Jimmy Neutron was great and i agree :) now if i were totally ignorant of waht 3d software can do...and i was lookin for photorealism...will i take Jimmy Neutron as an example of the most complicated and realistic shots ever done in 3d? i'm not talkin movies popularity because we could probably find even better examples of animated 3d shorts way more populars than Jimmy Neutron...so what? talkin here about technique not film making success..

TyVole
07-08-2003, 07:32 PM
Remember, box office total is not net proceeds. FF lost a lot more than 100M if you have listed all their revenue streams. And of course, it means JN didn't make 62M in profit (again, if you have listed all their revenue streams.)


Originally posted by takkun
Here's something to chew on:

Jimmy Neutron:
Box Office Total: $80,865,848
Video Rental Total: $6,390,000
Production Costs: $25,000,000
---------------------------------------
Total Profit: $62,255,848



Final Fantasy-The Spirits Within:
Box Office Total: $31,490,045
Video Rental Total: $5,140,000
Production Costs: $137,000,000
---------------------------------------
Total Profit: $-100,369,955



So, what does "high-end" mean again?



*Jimmy Neutron numbers: Rotten Tomatos (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/JimmyNeutronBoyGenius-1111232/numbers.php) IMDB (http://us.imdb.com/Business?0268397)

*Final Fantasy numbers: Rotten Tomatos (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/FinalFantasyTheSpiritsWithin-1108683/numbers.php) IMDB (http://us.imdb.com/Business?0173840)

takkun
07-08-2003, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by TyVole
Remember, box office total is not net proceeds. FF lost a lot more than 100M if you have listed all their revenue streams. And of course, it means JN didn't make 62M in profit (again, if you have listed all their revenue streams.) Yes, of course, I could only post with what info is publicly available. If you know of a site with complete audits then I'd be happy to edit my post. The only one I know of is IMDB Pro but I don't have an account.

cholo
07-08-2003, 07:56 PM
Final Fantasy would've been great if the same amount of work they put into making the characters render great had been taken to animate them, you must admit the animations in FF just plain s*ck, not to mention the cheesy acting. If that had been a real live action movie it would've looked like a high budget soap opera ;)

takkun
07-08-2003, 08:21 PM
i would like you to mention ONE animation with the same kind of challenge in mind...realistic humans in a realistic environment ...give me Only one.... There are many game studios (especially Japanese) that are creating very realistic human animations for their games, on par or better then the quality in the Final Fantasy movie. Companies such as Namco, Square Enix, Capcom, SEGA, etc. A good example is the new gamecube Resident Evil games and I was also impressed with the animation in Panzer Dragoon (which used Lightwave, but I'm not sure if it was for the game side or the cinematic side)

I don't think that we will see an all CG realistic film anytime soon as the gigantic flop known as Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within ruined the market for any other films with the same aspirations.
why suddenly we talk about tickets sold? when people debates with objective arguments someone always bring some strange argument that has barely to do with the post and makes diversion... My intention was not to create a diversion. I noticed that someone here mentioned Jimmy Neutron and someone else mentioned Final Fantasy. So I started wondering if Jimmy Neutron made more in the box office then Final Fantasy and I thought I would share these results. I just found it hilarious that a program you and others see as "mid-end" was used to make around $60 million dollars and I thought it was pertinent to this discussion.

Another thing I find hilarious is that people like you and CIM believe that Maya and Softimage is "high-end", yet for some reason are using Lightwave instead. Then you complain that Lightwave should be "high-end" even though it never has been considered as such. If you can't live without writing Mel scripts or sub-pixel displacement then you should definitely move on. Again, what a pointless discussion. :p

Nicodemus
07-08-2003, 10:10 PM
Begin Cut N Paste

well..we're nearly there with jimmy neutron's film....lightwave for modeling,animating and rendering with most character animation done in messiah but rendered in back in lightwave...

End Cut N Paste

Yes it was predominately Lightwave but DNA used Messiah for animation and have also incorporated Maya for the same.

As for the Final Fantasy/Maya thing.......there have been any number of people that worked on that project that copped to some artists using other packages. Lightwave being one that was used for some modeling. Granted it was small amounts from what I understand but it still supports my statement.

~L~

sailor
07-09-2003, 01:12 AM
Nevermind....i'm tired of this discussion :)

j3st3r
07-09-2003, 06:42 AM
Final Fantasy would have been a success, if it were created in the style of the games...

Anyway, FF is a milestone.

I don`t see 3D as a tool for recreating reality...But as a tool to create fantastic content. Even photorealistic, toon, or 3d toons.

What is a highend tool? A highend tool offers complex system with ready to use toolsets for content-creating, and the possibility to expand it to our needs. A highend tool has great support, and a highend tool is user friendly. A highend tools are almost self-explanatory, and let the artist focus on the job. A highend tool somehow separates artists and technicians. Etc.

Almost all program can fit into this.

cresshead
07-09-2003, 07:10 AM
c n p'd.......

Anyway, FF is a milestone.


end c n p'd..........


some see it as a tombstone for total cgi films for the next 5 years...

steve g

j3st3r
07-09-2003, 07:23 AM
Why?

I don`t see the point...What I think, that the mistake was that they tried to recreate realism. It was a pointless tech demo. But a milestone, that what can eb achieved with the present technology. I`m sure if they came up with an original Final Fantasy style animation film, it would have been a success.\

Oh, by the way what about Finding Nemo, Shrek2, etc. They are all full CGI films...

cresshead
07-09-2003, 07:37 AM
well i fully support the pixar/dna/pdi type full cgi feature films
they have a great future ahead with stylised 3dtoon features.

but the vactor [virtual actor] style films now have to overcome the
hurdle of what final fantasy left behind...debt and dis interest in the genre...

it will take someone like pixar, ILM's new animation dept or pdi
to put it back on the road and convice the investors to plough money into such a project.

steve g

TyVole
07-09-2003, 07:45 AM
I think the failure of FF had nothing to do with style. It had a terrible, boring script that was completely devoid of any humor. Most people go to films to watch something fun and entertaining, period. And FF was neither.

Nicodemus
07-09-2003, 12:55 PM
I think virtual actors is a novelty more than anything else.

Final Fantasy was cool but it lacked in story.

~L~

Gizmopop
07-11-2003, 01:30 PM
Wow...

I use Lightwave on a daily basis at my job ( television broadcast station). I've also used Maya and Softimage. Lightwave currently offers the tools the get the job done the same way you can in Maya and Softimage. Of the three the modelling is easiest in Lightwave, next I'd have to say Maya. Animation wise Softimage was always known to be the animation program, but right now this is a toss up between the 3, and rigging characters is very sweet on LW.

Feature wise I don't see how any of those others can compare, especially for the money, Lightwave is a very complete package at its price, Soft and Maya need to spend alot more to get all the features...Why this is even a point of argument is beyond me..

Interface, any program is initially complex to the first time user (even worse for those accustomed to another package) LW in my opinion gets you up and running the quickest of the three. Maya has alot of power and control, in some cases almost too much control, and they have an annoying habit of changing things around subtlely from version to version, Softimage 's interface hasn't changed(much)from version to version, the only signficant changes were made to XSI...If you have used Soft for a while, you may find it easier to jump to Maya before Lightwave.

Rendering, I am always amazed at my co-workers (she uses Maya) render times, things that are done in under a minute per frame in Lightwave will take several minutes in Maya. Softimage is the same, especially with Mental Ray.

It used to be the old argument " well I am spending more $$ so it must be better " :rolleyes: Lightwave comes from the old Amiga days, where quality software was available for much less than on competing systems...

And about MAX, the base price may be similar to lightwave, but you will spend alot more before that program becomes as versatile as LW, things that take maybe 2-3 steps in LW, usually take many more steps in MAX...that and they constantly change the interface....:mad:

Appreciate that LW cost what it does, it is worth more..:D

kirk
07-11-2003, 02:45 PM
OK, how much would it cost to register the domain:

www.ultimatehighend3dwaycool.com

(and of course, turn down discreet no matter how much money they got...)

:)

takkun
07-11-2003, 06:30 PM
CIM, do you actually work in the 3d industry or are you a hobbyist? If you do work in the industry, where do you work at? Gizmopop has used these programs in a production enviroment. How about you? What have been your production experiences?

EDIT:I don't know why I bother, it's like trying to get a straight answer from a bent pipe.

TyVole
07-11-2003, 07:42 PM
takkun,

Why aren't you asking Gizmopop for his/her resume? Just because he/she concurs with your opinion, doesn't make his/her views more legitimate than CIM's.

What you have done is partake in a form of argument Mr. Baker likes to refer to as "ad hominem" -- meaning, you're attacking CIM personally instead of his views. And it's a form of argument that I've never once seen CIM partake in (although he's often a victim of it.)

takkun
07-12-2003, 12:37 AM
TyVole, my intention was not to attack CIM, if I wanted to do that I could get really nasty (I have in the past). I really want to know more about CIM, he's so out-spoken that I would like to know where he's coming from. I'm not the only one, a bunch of people at CGtalk wanted Newtek to do a profile about CIM. Just imagine what that would be like. :)

sailor
07-12-2003, 01:17 AM
My 2 cents,

i wont talk about rendering because i have not enough experience in that side (production experience i mean) the only fantastic thing i have seen about MR that i really like is the way it handles Nurbs tesselation...it tesselates Nurbs trimmed surfaces perfectly and this alone is worth to mention...as far as LW doesnt even handle Nurbs ...enough said....

In the modeling side and if u only stop to out of the box features u really have to be either blind or hysterical to say that Maya has less features or even the same than LW ...it is rather the opposite.Even if some can find LW modeler easier, more intuitive or faster to use (another debate as this also depends on personal configs) this are my personal highlights as i had the chance to use Maya for some modeling in production:

OpenGl is very fast with large models (100 K+), polytools (adding a couple of mels maybe) are the same or almost the same than in LW u can customize ur keyboard shortcuts and that is it...u have the bandsaw equivalent and the like...plus all the specific Nurbs toolset that makes use of specific Nurbs tools that u will anyways never find in a polyset...if u then convert to poly u are adding functionalities to your toolset (who said that Nurbs sucks ? just be creative in the way u use it :)...in general modeling is very easy and intuitive...u can easily use only the perspective view to model as the snap to view planes and other manipulators options are very cool to use ...doing this in LW is not as easy IMHO... perspective view modeling i mean.i dont know where the reputation of an inintutive modeler comes to be honest...u use a split tool to split polys an edge beveling to bevel edges, an extrude polys to extrude...u have graphic tool manipulators that u can turn on or use the panels to have extra options....not very complicated i guess...

u have a very nice history system (that u can turn off with one click) and cool right click menus (select an edge/right click continous edges and u have selected a row of edges...) so not so many clicks nor menu search if u take the time to configure or remember the shortcuts as u once did with LW...
Also a very nice layers system that can be used as rendering layering system as well

not everything is perfect in Maya for me far from that...i found it not very stable (eventhough it was when loading very large scenes i must say ) and there are some modeling bugs that pisses me off like the one that from time to time breaks the normals when doing combines...and there u go for a set to face grrr) also the polygons booleans are not as good as LW's for instance but u can at least make Nurbs booleans (wich work great) and then convert to poly...but in overall i have to say that it has many of those dream features u can read in the features request forum...so i wonder if the guys that posted in here never post in the feature requests or what? :)

faulknermano
07-12-2003, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by TyVole
And it's a form of argument that I've never once seen CIM partake in (although he's often a victim of it.)

not true.

but i wont get myself started.:rolleyes:

j3st3r
07-13-2003, 10:41 AM
sailor: I`m using Maya in daily basis along with LW. My experience si that OPENGL viewports are faster, and more comfortable than LW`s, but modelling tools...My opinion is that LWs and XSI`s tool centric apporach is much more productive than Maya`s tool-option approach. In Maya you`ve got tools with plenty of tools, and it takes time to call a tool, set the option and do the job. LW`s call the tool and do the job is faster, and yes more intuitive...
Layers. Maya`s layer system is slow, and wacky comparing to LW...when we speak of modelling...
NURBS is cool, if you need it.

Anyway I think LW is best when you need modeling, while Maya is best when it comes to animation

gmask
07-13-2003, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Caveboy
Howcome Lightwave is not on the Highend 3D website?

Looks like ALL of the major 3d apps are there:

Maya

XSI

Soft(image)

. . . 3ds Max

but no Lightwave.

Has anyone (from Newtek) ever tried to get Lightwave on the site?

Just curious.


I can't speak with total authority on the subject as to why LW does not have a forum on Highend3d but if we did have one how would it be any better than the existing forums like the one here or elsewhere. Does there need to be another LW forum?

Running the website does take resources some of which have to be paid for so I'm sure if NT really wanted a presence there then they could offer sponsorship. I see nothing wrong with that.


I also get the feeling that many people think the name of the website (highend3d) is some sort of judgement about the products that are presented there. However it isn't... the goal of the website is to provide a forum for professional work which at the time of it's inception was a contrast to many a poser or bryce website. For the most part you can get very high quality help there and there is not so much clutter.

The choice of which software was represented was a more of a personal decision based on which apps the owner knew himself and not a predjudice towards those that aren't represented.

Personally I think "highend" work can be done in just about any software including ones that are free but as far as the idustry is concerned there are some major players.

If LW was to be included on Highend what could we offer that would set the forum apart from others?

sailor
07-13-2003, 02:25 PM
Jester :

well i had no particular probs with the Layers system in Maya while modeling at least...

tool with a lots of options not anymore for me...i just press "i" to have an extrusion and "l" to make a split and so on...that means only one key and the tool is launched...i just keep the manipulator tool activated and i have the same than in LW plus nice manipulators that are much more easy to use than LW manipulators (when they exist)...

when poly modeling i suppose that extrusion or splitting are good examples of a workflow...with a simple key config i'm just pressin a button and having the tool i need (icould do this for everything actually) so i have this "i" button for extrusion with keep faces on and thassit and the manipulator allows me in the fly to scale, translate, stretch and change local/world axis as i go....til here i juste pressed ONE key...how can it be faster? :) i dont know why u say u have to adjust the tools options...u dont have to u can either set it once for once or makes as many differnet keyboard for different types of settings...u could for instance make a "a" button for estrusion keep faces on another lets say "z" for the same with keep faces off another with differnt offsets and thassit i never topuch the options unless i need to ...


In the other hand yes i prefer LW system that allows u to scale or move just usin the cursor as a pivot point ...this is pretty cool and straight forward in LW and i miss this since as far as i know to do this u first have to move the object or component pivot point :(

cresshead
07-13-2003, 02:49 PM
hi there...

never mind lightwave...poser should be also on hi end 3d seeing as they used it to pre viz the latest matrix film in the fight scenes...

....it's all pigeon hole rubbish in the end..

steve g

gmask
07-13-2003, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by cresshead
hi there...

never mind lightwave...poser should be also on hi end 3d seeing as they used it to pre viz the latest matrix film in the fight scenes...

....it's all pigeon hole rubbish in the end..

steve g

I'm sure poser has been used for many things that people would not have expected but if you look at the quality of work featured on websites devoted to Poser it's in it's own class. The program is not very difficult to operate so... Anybody know of any websites dedicated to pre-viz?

Does anybody care to suggest what Highend3d could do for the LW community that is not allready being done?

takkun
07-13-2003, 03:38 PM
Does anybody care to suggest what Highend3d could do for the LW community that is not allready being done? With sites like Flay.com and the many Lightwave forums around, I'm not sure that adding Lightwave to Highend3d.com would be that useful (other than to boost the ego of people who don't know better) but what if a group of lightwave users would volunteer to moderate and keep updated a Lightwave section, this would save on costs (other than the increased bandwidth consumption).

Thanks for offering to help.:)

gmask
07-13-2003, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by takkun
With sites like Flay.com and the many Lightwave forums around, I'm not sure that adding Lightwave to Highend3d.com would be that useful (other than to boost the ego of people who don't know better) but what if a group of lightwave users would volunteer to moderate and keep updated a Lightwave section, this would save on costs (other than the increased bandwidth consumption).

Thanks for offering to help.:)

Bandwidth is probably the biggest issue next to who would moderate it. But because there are other good forums it seems the main point of it will be to lend credibilty to the program which I guess it needs more of .. I just didn't know Highend was the maker and breaker of 3d programs ;)

Oh and back in the day Highend3d.com was called Lumis.com .. I don't know why the name changed but it did.

prospector
07-13-2003, 05:37 PM
3D noobies :D

This thread is so funny:D

I remember when times were that if you didn't run LW you were in no-wheresville.

All commercials, all Star Trek (and that's TREK !!!!! not trak as some people like to say, jeese that's annoying) and the Olympics were all LW.

Star Treks were done with the Amiga even..
So the Amiga must be a high end compy?
AND those were only the 2000s and not the HIGHER end 4000s.
And it was only LW3.
Now we are at 7.5 and still LW is used by more people for graphics than any other program.
So if we count all those people (like workers doing local TV ads, local TV shows, 3D print graphics nationally and locally, overseas TV and print, all those hunting and fishing shows on the outdoor channel and the Gold Prospectors show) and add all the money they make in total, then that would put total gross income from LW ......WAY WAY WAY past all the other 3D apps combined.
Now does that make LW a High-End app?
The other programs could only dream of being so big;)

Besides..LW is only a third the total 3D experiance. get the toaster and mix your stuff with live film and then the true power of the TOTAL LW,Aura,Film experiance can shine it's brightest.

And ya can't get that out of the box with Maya, Max,Poser,or XSI.

So if Newtek REALLY REALLY wants to keep ahead of the compatition, the they should start packaging TV towers with thier VT so we can broadcast right from our recliner on our own channel.:D


C'mon you other 3D apps...
WHEN YA GONNA CATCH UP WITH NEWTEK ??????? HU ????

gmask
07-13-2003, 06:06 PM
>>>put total gross income from LW ......WAY WAY WAY past all the other 3D apps combined

Gross sales does not equal highend.. but I'm not debating wether or not LW is highend.. besides if I were I certainly wouldn't expect anything less than total evangelism for it here.

>>>So if we count all those people (like workers doing local TV ads, local TV shows, 3D print graphics nationally and locally, overseas TV and print, all those hunting and fishing shows on the outdoor channel and the Gold Prospectors show

oh hunting and fishing that really is highend.. surely photoshop probably gets used more than anything else out there but I think how an application is used has more to do with wether or not the results are highend. Of course if a program has features that others don't then that may make it highend as well.

We could have a token LW forum at the website highend3d.com if that would make any difference to LW's highend status but then would we also have to have tokenforums for every single application that has ever been used in a highend fashion?

>>>get the toaster and mix your stuff with live film and then the true power of the TOTAL LW,Aura,Film experiance can shine it's brightest.

live film?

That certainly is cutting edge..

Seriously if there are many users who really feel that there should be a LW forum and actually plan to make it a useful forum by posting there and contributing information then I will make it happen. Send an email to [email protected] and I will get the ball rolling if there is a great amount of response.

John Fornasar
07-13-2003, 09:31 PM
gmask,

If I'm not mistaken, they tried to start a LW forum on highend a year or two ago, but there was hardly any traffic, everyone was on NT's old forum.
Personally, I don't see the need for another LW forum, considering NT, cgtalk, lwg3d, etc. It would just add time looking for a "previous thread" when searching for information.
To help the insecure people using LW, maybe NT can put a button in the LW8 box - "LW - A High End Program - Really".

gmask
07-13-2003, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by John Fornasar
If I'm not mistaken, they tried to start a LW forum on highend a year or two ago, but there was hardly any traffic, everyone was on NT's old forum.


Huh? Must of been before I started moderating...

John Fornasar
07-13-2003, 10:12 PM
Maybe longer than a year or two?

Pretty sure that's where it was, way down on the bottom of the page...
although I have a hard time remembering what I had for breakfast today. Maybe someone with better long-term memory could hop in here.

j3st3r
07-13-2003, 11:26 PM
sailor:
You`ve touched that point, why I`m not using Maya for modeling...THe mouse pivot...Although I`m sure, it could be solved. In MAX there are functions to query the screen coordinates of cursor, so I do think Maya has it also.

prospector
07-15-2003, 04:16 PM
There has to be a yardstick by which measuring highend is done.
So comparing the total gross from packages is a yardstick.

All I mentioned is that there is more money made by more people using LW than the others.

Another would be total stuff put out by any of the programs and LW would be well ahead in that too.
That would be another yardstick.

A yardstick for big video productions where they can hire extra people to write code for something they need then maby LW isn't ahead.

A yardstick for price...LW not ahead
A yardstick for ease of use.....LW is ahead

there has to be 1 measuring unit and then everyone will be on the same page.


My yardstick is how much mulah a program brings in, in return for the output involved.
And LW shines there.

And I brought up those shows because OUT-OF-THE-BOX, LW does way way more than those other programs do , because my ver of LW comes with Aura,and live or taped film production to tape or DVD or live internet broadcasting, I can do more than those other programs...out-of-the-box.

that is high end

gmask
07-15-2003, 05:28 PM
>>>There has to be a yardstick by which measuring highend is done.
So comparing the total gross from packages is a yardstick.

All I mentioned is that there is more money made by more people using LW than the others.

I don't think quantity is that great of a measurment really. Ronco has sold alot of Pocket Fisherman but would you consider it a highend rod and reel because of that? You can gauge a companies success that way but it's quantity of sales does not equal quality.

>>>Another would be total stuff put out by any of the programs and LW would be well ahead in that too.
That would be another yardstick.

So would winning Oscars for the material done in particular program ..again quantity may equal value or may make a standard ..usually the ciutting edge application may not sell many copies or have that kind of saturation. XSI sells itself as being such a cutting edge tool yet is appears to be used for fewer projects and probably has fewer seats out there than LW.. yet many consider it to be the most highend.

>>>A yardstick for big video productions where they can hire extra people to write code for something they need then maby LW isn't ahead.

This is certainly an issue for film production but for smaller facilities the number of third party developers are depended upon for filling the gaps. Although some programs like MAX seem to get most of it's highend functionality from plugins.

>>>there has to be 1 measuring unit and then everyone will be on the same page.

It's not that easy.. nor does it need to be..

>>And I brought up those shows because OUT-OF-THE-BOX, LW does way way more than those other programs do , because my ver of LW comes with Aura,and live or taped film production to tape or DVD or live internet broadcasting, I can do more than those other programs...out-of-the-box.

It used to be that most "highend" 3d programs did come with paint and compositing .. XSI comes with compositing and Maya for Irix used to have Composer and then Digital Fusion.

It's nice when those are included but it is better when they are well intwined with the 3d product. I had to do a search on the NT website to find info on it.. I got the impression that Aura comes with the Toaster not Lightwave.


Anyway.. not a single person has sent me an email requesting that we have a LW forum again at Highend3d.com .. we used to have one but it was killed because there was no traffic to it. As I said before I can only expect total evangelism for LW here at the NT LW forum so yeah LW is highend.. and so is any number of programs out there. I'm not really interested in debating what's highend.. but if anyone wants to complain about LW not being on the website Highend3d.com they can cool down because we used to have a LW forum there and nobody cared until now apparently.

faulknermano
07-15-2003, 08:33 PM
quantity definitely does not say 'high-end'. but i think, for the most part, whether subjectively or otherwise, a higher priced product will more often be viewed as 'high-end'.

what's so confusing about this discussions is that we're trying to define what 'high-end' really is. and everybody's got an opinion. but nobody can claim authority, nor are the reasonings sufficient because the word itself - 'high-end' - does not have a solid basis for starting how to define it. however, the most popular connotation is price. the more pricey, the more LIKELY it may be high-end.

that is simply what i observe.

John Fornasar
07-15-2003, 09:33 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I brought up those shows because OUT-OF-THE-BOX, LW does way way more than those other programs do , because my ver of LW comes with Aura,and live or taped film production to tape or DVD or live internet broadcasting, I can do more than those other programs...out-of-the-box.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Haha!

I think someone needs to look up the definition of "out-of-the-box", because LW clearly doesn't come with Aura, nor is it part of LW in any way.

I think someone needs to look up the various products offered by Newtek, because the Video Toaster comes with LW, and there have been deals in the past where a VT deal also included Aura.

Remi
07-16-2003, 04:08 PM
I like steak:rolleyes:

gmask
07-16-2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by Remi
I like steak:rolleyes:

me too :D

faulknermano
07-16-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by gmask
me too :D


i like mine medium rare. :D

takkun
07-16-2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by faulknermano
i like mine medium rare. :D me too :D

I like New York Strip Steaks and those small round ones wrapped in bacon, the name escapes me.

(hmm, this isn't the discussion I was expecting... but steak is so good)

prospector
07-16-2003, 05:53 PM
But my LW DID come with Aura, and the VT too.
so they ARE all intigrated together.

So out of my box I got a really high end product,that costs less than the other so-called highend packages.

What I look at is all the packages that do 3D graphics.

Ya make something really good, the most terrific animation you have ever seen...ever

now what ???

Other companies..
hire someone to change your anim to tape or DVD
hire someone to broadcast it
or
buy another program to change it to film or dvd style
hire someone or buy an internet card to broadcast over internet.

Or

buy the full LW package from the beginning and not the so called highenders which costs more to start with,
do your animation,tape out to film and sell yourself,or broadcast right there over the internet live.

OUT_OF_THE_BOX

Being from the film end of 3D from the Amiga Toaster, I look at the customer first, who always wants something great and wants it yesterday.



1 company using a high-end program to customer..
"yep I can make that animated commercial for ya, but ya gotta take that to someone else to get it broadcastable."

Or

"Yep I can make that animated commercial for ya and give you the broadcastable master right here."

HMMMM

cresshead
07-16-2003, 06:00 PM
yeh..lightwave's bundles are varied...
little like saying maya comes with fluid dynamics....in reality it only does that with "unlimited" which is not available for mac for example...
same with max comes with character studio IF you buy them together or get a deal on them like i did in 1999...basically i paid full retail for max and they "gave" me character studio...

hi end or lo end...with lightwave you can do no end!...

steve g

gmask
07-16-2003, 06:21 PM
>>>But my LW DID come with Aura, and the VT too.
so they ARE all intigrated together.

Sounds like you bought a bundle and from the deals being offered on the NT site currently I did not see mention of Aura but rather for Digital Fusion as being the current comp/paint package offered. You do not get either if you only buy LW.. if that's the case then wouldn't they list Aura in the features of LW?

Oh and not to mention that if you are Mac user that Digital Fusion and Aura are both off limits to you.


>>>So out of my box I got a really high end product,that costs less than the other so-called highend packages.

Read this definition of highend..

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=highend

http://www.epinions.com/elec-review-2401-E1AD12F-398B8BF9-prod1

Okay so cost may be more or less a factor.. more expensive packages are by default considered by most to be high-end because they are highly expensive. That does not mean that less expensive systems do not work well or even as well as the high-end. In general one could say that the cost of highend graphics has fallen dramatically.

In the case of Maya people have been willing to pay more for the extensibility and frankly I would call Maya complete a standard and Unlimitied is highend. LW also seems to be a standard and also is found in highend pipelines in many film productions. It appears to me that Maya is the frontend that many places use even if they do their modelling in LW. But I have never hear dof a place that used LW for the frontend for rendering with renderman or mental ray or any other seriously open architecture renderers. Digital Domain is the only major film effects house that I know of that uses LW in their pipeline although there are probably others.


.....

1 company using a high-end program to customer..
"yep I can make that animated commercial for ya, but ya gotta take that to someone else to get it broadcastable."

Or

"Yep I can make that animated commercial for ya and give you the broadcastable master right here."



broadcastable.. yeah that's a real word.. Any 3d program is capable of producing broadcastable output wether or not anybody will want to look it is another story. No matter what software you use or how high or low it is in cost

I think you need to pat yourself on the back and repeat "LW is broadcastable" until you pass out.

You're just really hung up on the idea that because something is not considered highend that it is not good and that simply isn't the case.

I really like the idea of putting a button in LW that says "LW it's highend really!".

I know LW users that want to learn Maya but they don't need to and I'd like to know more about LW and XSI but I don't need to. Do I really care what kind of labels these programs get in regards to being highend? No.. why should I? I can get my work done with the software I use and everything is jim dandy.. whining about such superfluous issues is a waste of time.

takkun
07-16-2003, 07:45 PM
That epinions article was interesting:
You have audiophiles to thank for it. For some reason, they are a breed who are never satisfied, always thinking that just one more upgrade will bring them to the nirvana they are looking for. Sounds like 3d artists. ;)

gmask
07-16-2003, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by takkun
That epinions article was interesting: Sounds like 3d artists. ;)

That's for sure.. in which a case pretty much any software could be considered highend.. cause there's no end to upgrades no matter what you use.

gmask
07-16-2003, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by takkun
me too :D

I like New York Strip Steaks and those small round ones wrapped in bacon, the name escapes me.

(hmm, this isn't the discussion I was expecting... but steak is so good)

Filet Mignon is pretty "highend" but I swear my girlfriend can make a steak on the grill that's usually better than most I have had in any resteraunt no matter what cut of meat it is.

John Fornasar
07-16-2003, 09:30 PM
Sounds like you bought a bundle and from the deals being offered on the NT site currently I did not see mention of Aura but rather for Digital Fusion as being the current comp/paint package offered. You do not get either if you only buy LW.. if that's the case then wouldn't they list Aura in the features of LW?

I hate getting into history lessons because I start feeling old, but originally LW was a "freebie" as an add-on to the Video Toaster. It was quite a while before most people realized what it was capable of.

I'm not sure when Aura was included, but a lot of us LW users picked it up for $200 when NT was running a deal a few years ago. Compared to a lot of shelf-ware that I've collected over the last few years, I consider it one of my better purchases.
You won't see it offered now, DF is the new package "deal".

Steak-wise, I prefer a shell steak (usually called a "New York" cut outside of NY), or a Club cut. Medium rare inside, with a nice crunchy outside. I usually rub it thick with rough crushed black pepper, kosher salt (the big grains) and crushed garlic. Nice.
I was doing Filet Mignons for a year or so, but I kept making a bearnaise sauce with them... at one of the free on the job medical checkups, I ran up a 484 cholesterol level... people were freaking out. I'm laying off the filets and butter...

gmask
07-16-2003, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by John Fornasar
I hate getting into history lessons because I start feeling old, but originally LW was a "freebie" as an add-on to the Video Toaster. It was quite a while before most people realized what it was capable of.


I remember seeing a screenshot of an early version of LW and it was pretty sparse..kind of commodoresque. I guy I knew who pretty much got me into the industry had an Amiga and was using LW but when I met him he had just bought an Indigo Elan, Vertigo and then latter Prisms.

So what is the deal with Aura is it dead in the water or what? Just curious?

Joe
07-16-2003, 11:47 PM
I personally think Newtek does not market it's self as a highend tool to begin with. Is there any reason why they havent announce any detailed siggraph events like SideFX.Alias,Discreet, and Soft? I am lookin on this site but only see the front page linking to siggraph03.

Takkun you seem to know your stuff :D I'm pretty much a newb do you have a website were I can see your work?

Thanks!
Joe.

faulknermano
07-17-2003, 06:28 PM
high-end (hnd)
adj. Informal
Appealing to sophisticated and discerning customers: a high-end department store; high-end video equipment.
Sophisticated and discerning: books targeted to the high-end consumer.


well you see now.. THAT's our problem here. it's NOT about the product! it's about the end-user. WE are not high-end. we're a bunch of sensitive car alarms -insert irritating whinny sound here-.

what could we do to improve out 'high-endedness'. maybe we should shut up on our trade secrets? :D

(note: i do not know if i'm being sarcastic, so please dont ask)

gmask
07-17-2003, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by faulknermano
[B]well you see now.. THAT's our problem here. it's NOT about the product! it's about the end-user.

To quote myself from my first post replying to this thread..

"Personally I think "highend" work can be done in just about any software including ones that are free"

We have all seen crap work down in all our favorite programs and these days nobody beleives that push button effects are what "high-end" users want. Highend users want to beable to break out of presets and get in there and muck around with every level of control possible. It's nice to beable to have both though so that the single and new users have some firm ground to stand on.

faulknermano
07-17-2003, 07:49 PM
no argument there.

i guess, to that end, there the question shoud be, from here on out is: are YOU a high-end user? or... why arent YOU on highend3d.com :D

chewey
07-20-2003, 11:59 AM
I recall a few years back that the reason for not having LW on Highend had to do with money. Plus Will has from time to time displayed a a bit of a "tude" toward Lightwave for some reason.:rolleyes:

Its a great place for Maya stuff though so who cares when there's plenty of other joints taking care of the Lightwave crowd.

gmask
07-20-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by chewey
I recall a few years back that the reason for not having LW on Highend had to do with money. Plus Will has from time to time displayed a a bit of a "tude" toward Lightwave for some reason.:rolleyes:


That's BS.. totally untrue. Stick a fork in it.. it's done :p