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Digital Hermit
11-05-2007, 11:38 AM
I sent e-frontier a letter about their recent FAQ update about Poser Pro...


On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 16:09:56 -0800, “Digital Hermit” wrote:

> PLEASE! Tell me this is a typo or was that it was accidentally omitted.
>
> I just read the latest FAQ and the Feature Comparison. THERE IS NO
MENTION OF LIGHTWAVE AS A HOSTING PLUG IN!! You guys stated that you
were going have Hosting in the following apps:
>
> "Directly host Poser scenes including geometry, textures, animation
data, and more in the following applications:
> Autodesk 3D Studio Max Windows
> Autodesk Maya Mac and Windows
> Newtek's Lightwave Mac and Windows
> Maxon's Cinema 4D Mac and Windows"
>
> But your latest Feature Comparison and FAQ for "Hosting" says:
>
> Autodesk 3dsMax R9 Hosting Plug-in Win
> Autodesk 3dsMax 2008 Hosting Plug-in Win
> Autodesk Maya 8.5 Hosting Plug-in Mac/Win
> Autodesk Maya 2008 Hosting Plug-in Mac/Win
> Maxon C4D R9.6 Hosting Plug-in Mac/Win
> Maxon C4D R10.5 Hosting Plug-in Mac/Win
>
>
> I have always been disappointed with the latest editions of Poser,
since "Poser 4 Pro Pack" and I thought you guys were getting your act
together with this latest version. I will say this... I hate those other
damned overpriced apps and how this company seems to cater to them
to the exclusion of LW. (and please don't mention your "LWO
export support" platitude, it has always been a sorry export option.)
Poser has a chance to see a real benefit if it integrates with
LW and all its talented users.
>
> (As a courtesy I edited out all the swearing in the first draft of
this letter, seriously!)
>
> Please, again, tell me this is all a typo.
>
> Regards,
>
> "Digital Hermit"
>
> __________________________________________________


Their response...


Thank you for contacting e frontier.

LightWave is on the plan but we do not have a date to give you at this
time, there's a good match between Poser and LightWave, and a clear
call from LightWave users like yourself to make the plug-in available. So
you'll hear about it soon as we have a date for you.

Thanks for your patience and understanding.

e frontier

Captain Obvious
11-05-2007, 11:54 AM
Eh, Poser is kind of crap anyway.

Steamthrower
11-05-2007, 12:08 PM
Is it ever used in a real production setting?

calilifestyle
11-05-2007, 12:20 PM
Um ok so are you guys saying that Lightwave isnt being used in real producting setting .. yet they will support MAX MAY and MAXON... so am i missing something other then that yes i want this to just like the other guys. why wouldn't you want more. Honestly the point is even if you don't like, it doesn't mean i or hundred other may also want it(just for the heck of it). trust me i buy a lot of thing just cuz it works with something i use or cuz it came with something. so why not lightwave one of lowest prices apps.

Steamthrower
11-05-2007, 12:48 PM
We're saying that Poser isn't used in a real production setting. Not Lightwave.

IMI
11-05-2007, 03:32 PM
We're saying that Poser isn't used in a real production setting. Not Lightwave.


And there's a real good reason for that. ;)
Poser's limited animation tools simply aren't up to the task of any kind of animation that has any degree of complexity or duration. As far as I know, it has no distributed rendering, which would make it nearly impossible to make a two hour movie.
Commercials, shorts, why not, but not much else.

I find it somewhat surprising that they would choose max or Maya over LW though. Considering the CA and rigging tools those programs have, it'd seem kinda silly to even want to import a Poser scene. It would make more sense for LW to get the plugin first, I'd think.

And as far as LW goes, though, it can import OBJ files from Poser. From there it wouldn't be too big of a deal to rig the character up new. And, LW's CA and rigging tools being considerably better, plus all the other animation tools... it would seem to me to be easier to do that than to import a Poser scene and spend hours and hours removing stuff Poser thought was good.

But I don't know if I'd trust it anyway. E Frontier also made the 3D modeler, "Shade", and had a whole lot of trouble getting Poser scenes into it, from what I've read. And that's their own program. They have not only any existing SDK, but the source code itself.

Some of those Poser models available really are quite good, particularly the ones sold at DAZ. And, after all, DAZ is in direct competition with E-Frontier. They could do themselves a world of good, probably, by selling those same models pre-rigged for max, maya, LW, and so on.

calilifestyle
11-05-2007, 04:48 PM
Now i hate to place someone on blast but this guys uses poser for his work http://rgus.deviantart.com/
and his work looks great... better then some of the stuff i have seen here... he does use some daz mods. again i love how some feel threaten to even think of using poser in there pipeline. after seen RGUS scenes man i want to pick up poser.

geothefaust
11-05-2007, 04:57 PM
I know someone who does use Poser in their pipeline. I wont say who, but I will say they are very much a respected person in the LW community.

Just because it has limited tools, doesn't mean that it can't be used in a real production pipeline. If it suits the your current needs, is cheaper, and faster. Then why not? (I don't animate much, so no, I don't use it personally)

StereoMike
11-05-2007, 05:05 PM
I see rarely (never?) nice images done with poser (it always looks as if it's about to die, in fact the application changed companies quite often), tho poser still exists and there is still talking about it. I guess it's 90% pr0n below the radar.

mike

animotion
11-05-2007, 05:51 PM
I seriously doubt that poser would have any effect on LW at all.
NewTek is not pushing half necked bad looking chick models.

Did I say NECKED! :D
Animotion

Steamthrower
11-05-2007, 06:47 PM
Yeah. Well. Whatever. I'm not saying that Poser's completely useless, as a matter of fact if you just wanted to export some models it can be useful, but otherwise...

mrpapabeis
11-05-2007, 06:50 PM
I use Poser for previs. Among other things. I also use DAZ models, not so much characters, but props, often. As a matter of fact Poser was used to previs a scene in "300".

Ee tan, ee epitas...


GP

adamredwoods
11-05-2007, 07:58 PM
Poser is good you need to throw in a few background people fast. You don't have to hunt through Turbosquid.

loki74
11-05-2007, 09:43 PM
Now i hate to place someone on blast but this guys uses poser for his work http://rgus.deviantart.com/

and somehow, even if you didn't already tell us, I would know just by looking at it that he used poser...

I've yet to see any poser work I really just find totally amazing. In another thread, someone posted some examples of good work being done in Poser (ie, it had a "maybe it poser? idk... but it aint bad" feel as opposed to an "eeeeewww, poser!!" feel, like the link you posted).

I've always felt Poser is great for previs and props, as has been mentioned, but I would never think of putting a poser model in a final cut as anything other than an extra who's presence is important only for realism... someone the audience wouldn't give a second look.

Digital Hermit
11-05-2007, 10:16 PM
I know that current Poser models are “poly-intense-hogs”... and I agree that poser animation tools suck…

Here is what I found interesting; some of the "newer designed content" will be figures “optimized” for sub-patch. Also, I think that you can import the rigged characters and animate them independently in your app ... I am not sure if that applies to all the apps though.

I think e-frontier is realizing that they can be a real contender as a “content company”, i.e. Turbo Squid, for other professional apps, but still offer their Poser software to beginners or hobbyists.

Nothin’ wrong with that in my book. :)

jin choung
11-05-2007, 10:52 PM
poser is [email protected]#. and everything made with poser looks like it was made with poser. aka ie eg [email protected]#$. it has that certain aura of [email protected]#$ about it.

good riddance.

jin

Silkrooster
11-05-2007, 11:12 PM
Don't forget, majority of the users are beginners, due to the price of the software.
Silk

jin choung
11-05-2007, 11:39 PM
that's fine.

but [email protected]#$ made by a child is still [email protected]#$.

i don't mean to sound unsympathetic or cruel. i just mean to say that (and i'm quoting myself here) "the conditions of production do not in any way mitigate the evaluation of the final result".

you're a beginner, you were rushed, didn't have money, etc... doesn't matter. the end result stands on its own merits and it is either [email protected]#$ or not.

jin

animotion
11-06-2007, 12:05 AM
Hay jin choung tell us how you really feel. :)

I agree with 100%. Until their focus does a 180 this AP will always be in the gutter.

Animotion

geothefaust
11-06-2007, 01:31 AM
After reading and posting in this thread, I decided I would look more for some poser stuff...

Wow. Just wow. It really does seem to be mostly rubbish, or even more so, really craptastic pr0n.

Aptly named program...

archijam
11-06-2007, 01:37 AM
Regardless of what we (yes I include myself) think of what usually comes out of poser, it is bad if ANY 3rd party program stops supporting LW.

Poser is an affordable niche option for start-up LW users. Why waste your energy bashing it?

j.

archijam
11-06-2007, 01:44 AM
Seriously, who buys **** like this? Is some kind of dress-up doll fetish for adults with credit cards?

Actually, I just realised the PERFECT niche market for poser. Arch-Viz of shopfronts (pref. lingerie) with maniquins! Seriously. I couldn't put my finger on it before, but that's the feeling I get when i see them...

Their eyes follow me around .. *shiver*

Now everyone go write to Poser asking for lw support to be returned. :)

j.

Darth Mole
11-06-2007, 01:53 AM
Gonna get some of those for my missus. Only $9!

jin choung
11-06-2007, 01:54 AM
this comes from literary theory so it's understandable if you cg-folk aren't familiar.

but still, it's fairly common knowledge that something can either be "craptastic" or "craptacular". but they cannot be both. they are mutually exclusive.

and clearly, those images are craptacular.

jin

Matt
11-06-2007, 02:41 AM
Eh, Poser is kind of crap anyway.

LOL!

Matt
11-06-2007, 02:43 AM
These are all time favorites of mine:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=53714

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=36815

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=51838

What would be the purpose of those things?

By the way, I'm not judgemental - each to his own and all that :) I'm merely truly puzzled at the existence of these things. (Actually, not really).

ROTFL!

I guess it's so people can make games like this!

http://www.deadoralivegame.com/home.html

CAClark
11-06-2007, 03:17 AM
Why do so many people think they are absolute gods in cg, that they have some pre-defined authority that makes their opinion 100% correct in flippantly defining a piece of software as sh1t?

Poser may not be a great all in one rendering/animation solution, but it HAS a place. I know people who use poser models as a starting base for character models. Hell, I don't do characters, so I'd use it without hesitation if I needed a character. Because I see a use for it doesn't make it genius. Because you don't like it doesn't make it sh1t. Get over yourselves.

The level of self opinionatedness is astounding.

IMI
11-06-2007, 03:55 AM
Renderosity is a real gold mine. :D I'll spare you from posting their fetish stuff here, it's too funny altogether, but might be too offensive for the squeamish.

These are all time favorites of mine:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=53714

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=36815

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=51838

What would be the purpose of those things?

By the way, I'm not judgemental - each to his own and all that :) I'm merely truly puzzled at the existence of these things. (Actually, not really).

Some people do have some pretty funky fantasies though.

No, I'm not sharing mine :D

You think that's bad, try some of these:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=56900&

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=56945&

(Maddie can now lick ice cream, lollypops and candy canes! She can now stick out her tongue in many different ways! If you watch a child for more than a few minutes you'll notice that their tongue is out of their mouths more than in it, so to do renders that are realistic in many ways you will need to utilize the tongue.... You've been waiting for this! You know you have!)

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=48134&

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=44372&

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php

I'm sure it's all just innocent fun though....

CAClark, I don't think it's sh1t. Poser as a program, that is. It has a place in CG, and has been used for various professional projects here and there.

I just think it's hilarious to poke fun at its usage and its users.

It's ironic, actually - most of the Poser professional users are making their money making models, textures and morph packages for other Poser users, who in turn reach a level of proficiency to the point where they then can make their own products to sell to newer Poser users, and so on it goes.

That's not to say there hasn't been some good development along the way - If you wade through the repetitive and redundant stuff at DAZ, you can find quite a good deal of reasonably good architectural and interior models which are far less cost than stuff at Turbosquid, for example. And even quite a bit of decent clothing which could easily enough be adapted to characters in other 3D packages.

Matt
11-06-2007, 06:32 AM
That 'kiddie tongue' stuff is just plain WRONG.

Steamthrower
11-06-2007, 09:27 AM
Show me one render, one still of a movie, of something produced in Poser that doesn't look like it's a frame grab from a video game, and I'll admit that it might be worth something somewhere.

I usually don't say things are crap. I am a very generous person in that respect. But Poser...it's like Windows Movie Maker compared to Final Cut Pro.

Titus
11-06-2007, 09:48 AM
Show me one render, one still of a movie, of something produced in Poser that doesn't look like it's a frame grab from a video game

Poser is very common for animatics, an interesting niche.

Steamthrower
11-06-2007, 09:51 AM
Yeah, I guess animatics and previz are definitely a valid use for Poser.

animotion
11-06-2007, 09:56 AM
Its also good if you need a couple hundred stamps licked :tongue:

Animotion

Captain Obvious
11-06-2007, 10:02 AM
Why do so many people think they are absolute gods in cg, that they have some pre-defined authority that makes their opinion 100% correct in flippantly defining a piece of software as sh1t?
I've actually used Poser for a paying job (http://www.luxology.com/gallery/image.aspx?id=103). Sure, I can't look at it anymore without cringing, but that's beside the point.

xav
11-06-2007, 10:20 AM
I often use poser for animatic in advertising.
We also had to realise a serie of illustration involving a lot of silhouettes.
I've build a composition in AE refferencing the silhouettes rendered with poser. In this particular case, poser allowed us to meet the deadline.

A good and fast translation between poser and Lightwave will be very usefull for some job. All job doesn't require brodcast/film quality.

loki74
11-06-2007, 10:28 AM
Poser...it's like Windows Movie Maker compared to Final Cut Pro.

perfect description.

archijam
11-06-2007, 10:30 AM
I usually don't say things are crap. I am a very generous person in that respect. But Poser...it's like Windows Movie Maker compared to Final Cut Pro.

Poser .. compared to what?

Captain Obvious
11-06-2007, 10:38 AM
Poser .. compared to what?
Anything?

IMI
11-06-2007, 10:45 AM
I've actually used Poser for a paying job (http://www.luxology.com/gallery/image.aspx?id=103). Sure, I can't look at it anymore without cringing, but that's beside the point.

I don't know why you'd cringe, that's a pretty cool picture. Were the mannequins the final image or were they placeholders or stand-ins for human models to come later?

Matt
11-06-2007, 11:27 AM
perfect description.

Or how about, it's the Microsoft PowerPoint template equivalent of a 3D!

Sorry just adding fuel to the fire, I don't really care, I don't use, those that do, if it does what they want, that's fine with me.

The only possible use _I_ could use it for is placing mannequins inside our train stuff when we want to prove spaces etc. BUT they would have to hook up the models to some anthropometric database first, then it would be quite useful actually!

Steamthrower
11-06-2007, 11:42 AM
Poser compared to....Lightwave, Max, Maya, C4D, XSI, Houdini, Silo, Modo, Winds 3D, Mudbox, Bryce, Blender, TrueSpace, Zbrush, 3D-Brush, Vue, Animation:Master, Cheetah 3D, Make Human, Anim8or...

MachineClaw
11-06-2007, 11:54 AM
As a long time poser user it's rather disconcerning to see these posts and such elitism here.

Poser is a tool, just like every other tool.

Hey there is a full 3d movie being made with Blender - let's rag on it!

Come on. I have seen some rather badly done crap in the Lightwave 3d galleries here too. It's a tool and the level someone is at shows in their renders, or art.

Poser is a very affordable tool that allows one to use morphs with dial spins to create characters, it allows users to put clothing on character models and have the clothing move easly posed.

Is there a lot of crap out there that is done with poser, yes I fully admit that in the poser hobbiest community the simple erotica press button renders it's simple and cheesy, or crap as people here like to say.

Look through the Daz3D.com galleries posted online. Daz3D doesn't allow nudity in their galleries and the level of some of the renders is of the quality of some of the great stuff I've seen done with Maya, 3dstudiomax, and lightwave.

I got into lightwave specifically BECAUSE of poser and the old Poser 4 propack that had a lightwave plugin for lightwave 7.5. Specificlly to better the poser content and make the renders LOOK better.

efrontier's new PoserPRO package was state to have lightwave support, but now it's not listed. I'm very disapointed as I want a solution to get poser content INTO and rendered with lightwave in an easy way.

I don't do animation, could care less. Really. I don't want to model and rig and do morphs for a 3d figure. Poser has SOOOOO many monster figures, people, clothing etc. why reinvent the wheel if I can better my art.

Most modelers that I know hate poser because they think it cheapens their talents at modeling when someone can just buy a model and hit render. Well all Poser models, ALL poser models are modeled outside of Poser. lightwave, 3dstudio max, maya are all used to MAKE the models used in poser. ALL models, be it a 3d figure, a room, a monster, and all the clothing.

You don't like the sexy outfits and erotica of poser, well it's all modeled outside of poser so who's fault is it really that poser stuff all looks like that? The modelers that made it that's who.

I have no interest in doing porn or erotica. However being able to use a program like Vue to do a landscape and use poser to have a 3d figure in a spacesuit and do a SCIFI render, well I don't see how that is such a bad thing.

Here are some Poser renders that look unlike most poser renders:

http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/galleries/0/-/?id=31297&sec=2

http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/galleries/0/-/?id=31036&sec=2

http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/galleries/0/-/?id=31838&sec=2

Now I have seen similar images in the Zbrush galleries, in the Maya galleries, and in the lightwave galleries.

Just cause you have a 3d content and I have 3d content doesn't always mean that we produce the same artistic image. It's about the artist and their use of the tools they have available to them.

I can draw some people under the table. I can barely model a cube. Doesn't mean that I'm less of an artist than others, just that I'm better at some of my artistic tools and some are better then me at using their tools.

For me being able to use my poser stuff in lightwave would make my artistic renders better and more to my liking that just using poser to render. PoserPro giving lightwave a backseat is very disapointing to me. If you don't care then don't rag on a tool just cause you don't like it.

I hate ZBrush, doesn't mean it's not useful to others.

Geeezzz some of you really need to get off your high horses. Better yet, go model a 3d horse and render an image as good as this one:

http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/galleries/0/-/?id=10815

cresshead
11-06-2007, 12:37 PM
wow!

the venom written here knocking poser has only ever been matched by some who knock lightwave...

it's a app that has grown from a sotware assistance to traditional artists to a 3d animation app that has hair, cloth and motion capture support...and now plugins to play nice with 3dsmax, maya and cinema4d...

i think some need to go back over the white line to the junior side of the playground.....stop pretending to be school kids in long trousers!

:D :lwicon:

Paul24
11-06-2007, 12:43 PM
[QUOTE=MachineClaw] Poser is a tool, just like every other tool..................................../QUOTE].

:agree: Thanks MachineClaw, I'm 100% with you on this.:thumbsup:

animotion
11-06-2007, 12:51 PM
I still say use it to lick stamps and shut up!

Steamthrower
11-06-2007, 01:01 PM
i think some need to go back over the white line to the junior side of the playground

I say that we should beat up the little kids on the playground ;)

I am kidding, for the record.

loki74
11-06-2007, 03:01 PM
As a long time poser user it's rather disconcerning to see these posts and such elitism here.

If the end result is crap, it is what it is. Doesn't matter who or what made it. That has nothing to do with elitism, it just has to do with some harsh realities. I'll be the first to admit that there is poor art made with ALL 3D apps, for the mere reason that there are beginners in ALL 3D apps.


Poser is a tool, just like every other tool.

Yes, and just like every other tool it has its place. Poser's place is most definitely not the focus of a production. Previs, animatic, concept... yes. Final cut? No.


Hey there is a full 3d movie being made with Blender - let's rag on it!

Oranges and apples dude.


Come on. I have seen some rather badly done crap in the Lightwave 3d galleries here too. It's a tool and the level someone is at shows in their renders, or art.

Yes. What matters is the final result, not the tool. However, I imagine that most people who are extremely skilled will feel very limited by Poser. Heck, I'm pretty noob and I find it limiting.


Poser is a very affordable tool that allows one to use morphs with dial spins to create characters, it allows users to put clothing on character models and have the clothing move easly posed.

As long as you want to compare Poser to Blender... Blender is FREE and you can model whatever you want in it. Why don't the same Poser users make nude women in Blender? .... maybe because it's not just a matter of downloading a model and turning some dials?


Most modelers that I know hate poser because they think it cheapens their talents at modeling when someone can just buy a model and hit render. Well all Poser models, ALL poser models are modeled outside of Poser. lightwave, 3dstudio max, maya are all used to MAKE the models used in poser. ALL models, be it a 3d figure, a room, a monster, and all the clothing.

... so how come Poser users don't go and make their own models in the programs you mention? If they wanna use other ppl's models, hey that's fine. Just don't take a lame, unaltered model from someone else, make it the focus of your piece, and sell it off as the hottest, coolest, or sexiest thing since sliced bread.


You don't like the sexy outfits and erotica of poser, well it's all modeled outside of poser so who's fault is it really that poser stuff all looks like that? The modelers that made it that's who.

Okay, so some modeler somewhere made a model I don't like. But who's the one taking it, posing it, dressing it, and playing it off as sexy? Who's the one willing to pay that modeler for the crappy model? Uh, the Poser end user. Hey, if there was a market for my dog's poop, you bet I'd set up shop.


Here are some Poser renders that look unlike most poser renders:

http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/galleries/0/-/?id=31297&sec=2

http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/galleries/0/-/?id=31036&sec=2

http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/galleries/0/-/?id=31838&sec=2

Now I have seen similar images in the Zbrush galleries, in the Maya galleries, and in the lightwave galleries.


I'll give you the first one; that's pretty unique for Poser. But the second two still both unmistakably reek of Poser. eeew.


Just cause you have a 3d content and I have 3d content doesn't always mean that we produce the same artistic image. It's about the artist and their use of the tools they have available to them.

but it does mean that we both were too lazy to do it from scratch (or it wouldn't make sense to do it from scratch, ie, in previs)... I guess the difference is that I would never put it in my final cut. As far as tools available... Blender is free, and I'd take it over Poser any day of the week.


Geeezzz some of you really need to get off your high horses. Better yet, go model a 3d horse and render an image as good as this one:

http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/galleries/0/-/?id=10815

High horses? Hellooo?? WE'RE not the ones posting to links exemplifying how "great" our work is. I KNOW I can't model a photoreal horse on my own. As an artist, I lack the skills. I'm willing to admit it. But I'm not about to take someone else's model, tweak it some, and call it my own.

This isn't about elitism dude. Poser and any manner of premade will never be as respectable or (on average) high quality as originals.

Digital Hermit
11-06-2007, 03:38 PM
Guys I have figured it out....

I am right... so ALL of you are wrong.

:neener: neener neener :neener:

How's that fer elitism!

voriax
11-06-2007, 04:22 PM
I just get tired of people trying to pass themselves off as a "3d Artist" when all they know how to use is Poser.
Would that make them posers? The name of the package seems pretty apt these days.

Speedmonk42
11-06-2007, 05:06 PM
Ok, so maybe poser is not so great now.

That could change in one version.

We should be supporting integration with LW.

calilifestyle
11-06-2007, 05:23 PM
Ok, so maybe poser is not so great now.

That could change in one version.

We should be supporting integration with LW.
yeah thats really what this about... Vue comes to mind. i also recall ppl dogging vue as soon as it was included with an update to lightwave that stopped, a bit at lest( and no im not going to go dig up old vue rants).

Matt
11-06-2007, 05:28 PM
Come on. I have seen some rather badly done crap in the Lightwave 3d galleries here too. It's a tool and the level someone is at shows in their renders, or art.

This is very true

jaf
11-06-2007, 05:33 PM
So, not taking sides, but just asking. Where are those human characters done in Lightwave at? I was looking in the Newtek Gallery but didn't see anything (yet -- slow dialup connection.)

Qexit
11-06-2007, 05:40 PM
wow!

the venom written here knocking poser has only ever been matched by some who knock lightwave...

Hehe, this has been quite mild compared with the vitriol that was thrown around when someone suggested that CGTalk should/could have a section for Poser :D

rj_andron
11-06-2007, 05:45 PM
DH, thanks for looking into this.

I'm currently awaiting PPro as well since I think it will be very useful for a project I have in mind.

I've been pestering them on the same topic for the past few weeks as well. Good to hear that they are still planning on including the LW hosting plugin.

animotion
11-06-2007, 07:11 PM
Anyone want to buy some stamps?

jin choung
11-06-2007, 09:28 PM
judgment is good.

being able to tell good from bad is good.

NOT being "opinionated" makes you one who has no opinion. quite an exciting fellow i would imagine that would make you.

WHY WITHHOLD JUDGMENT?!

as if it is somekind of virtue?

pffft.

your unwillingness or inability to judge UNDERMINES YOUR CREDIBILITY AS AN ARTIST and a potential employee (freelancer, vendor).

LESSON 1 for ALL ARTISTS - KNOW [email protected]#$ when you see it.
LESSON 2 MAKE SURE YOU KNOW [email protected]#$ WHEN YOU'VE MADE IT.

otherwise, you will never get better and you will languish in delusion while everyone else looks at your stuff and rolls their eyes.

poser is [email protected]#$. end of story.

everything made with it and nothing but it looks like [email protected]#$. end of story.

worse, everything made with it LOOKS LIKE IT WAS MADE WITH IT(!!!)

it is BAD when your objects betray the method of creation: if a NURBS object looks like it was made with nurbs and not exactly like what it's supposed to be, that's bad.

if a poly object looks poly and not like what it's supposed to be, that's bad.

and especially for lwers, if subd objs looks like they were made with subds (all roundy and fluffypuffy) and not like what it's supposed to be, that's bad.

now multiply that by a million times and that's the problem with poser. every poser thing looks like a poser thing and not what it's supposed to look like... that's bad.

poser is a style.

and that style is [email protected]#$.

jin

jin choung
11-06-2007, 09:31 PM
BTW, it tickles me to no end and i believe it is utterly poetic justice that it happens to be named poser.

that is the brand, it's identification. and the connotation is just so fitting that it delights me no end.

jin

Steamthrower
11-06-2007, 09:44 PM
Though I tend to disagree with you Jin a lot, probably because I'm opininated myself, you have a very good point there. There's crap and there's non-crap (I'm using crap instead of your s-word :D) and if one doesn't realize that, you're either unopinionated or inexperienced.

voriax
11-06-2007, 10:14 PM
The sad part is they can't tell it's crap, and they post on places like Renderosity where everyone elses work is equally crap (because it's done in Poser), and they all give each other big back-pats of kudos and just reinforce the delusion that they're actual 3d artists.
Been said already, Poser has it's place, but that place should be far far away from a final piece.

God, even the front page of renderosity is an affront to a real 3d designer.

jin choung
11-06-2007, 10:34 PM
right.

one must develop an EYE.

there's a question that is sometimes asked in interviews for vfx jobs, they bring up something on your reel and ask you:

"on a scale of 1 to 10, what would you say that is?"

and you BETTER NOT answer 9 or 10 if it's not!

the idea is not to condemn you for less than 10 work. the idea is to GAUGE YOUR EYE.

can you indeed tell when something is good? can you indeed tell when something is bad?

if you can't, you are useless as a contractor and as an artist.

it is right and fitting that your TASTE EXCEEDS YOUR ABILITY. there is hope here. all good artists START HERE.

but if your taste is bad or non-existent, man you've got troubles.

again, call [email protected]#$ for what it is or undermine your credibility.

jin

Digital Hermit
11-06-2007, 11:14 PM
So jin where are the realistic figures you modeled ... I would love to see some of your work. :D

Regards,

Speedmonk42
11-06-2007, 11:21 PM
If Newtek had just 5000 more seats of LW producing pron and fetish crap like this, I would be pretty happy about it.

I have never used it, don't know much about it or CA.

What would it take to make a 'poser' like plug-in bolted onto/into LW?

Is it more about content? (ie hot model chicks and borderline pedophile ones?)

If these people are so obsessed with this stuff... isn't that well ... a market?

If you show them LW can do it waaaayyyy better..... well.... dunno.

Just trying to do something other than crap all over it.

jin choung
11-06-2007, 11:34 PM
So jin where are the realistic figures you modeled ... I would love to see some of your work. :D

Regards,


you miss the point. by a mile.

and while i gratefully make a living as cg artist, this is not in any way the point - although people who miss the point never fail to go in this direction... so at least you're in good (well, at least, plentiful) company.

even if i am incapable of making nothing but [email protected]#$, i am the better for being able to look at my stuff and say, "hey everybody, look at this [email protected]#$!"

YOUR ABILITY TO JUDGE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR OWN ABILITY.

it has everything to do with your GRASP ON REALITY.

it has everything to do with your TASTE.

it has everything to do with your EYE.

get it?

jin

jin choung
11-06-2007, 11:35 PM
oh....

and talk about an OXYMORON....

POSER PRO?!?!

lol

hahahahahahaha....

that's just... too... delicious!

jin

jin choung
11-06-2007, 11:39 PM
AND

my INABILITY to look at my stuff and correctly identify sh#@$ as [email protected]#$ makes me a pariah to other artists who have to put on a fake smile and nod and otherwise tip toe around the idiot who can't tell sh234 for gold.

don't be that guy.

jin

Sande
11-07-2007, 12:13 AM
Sigh, this Poser sucks/you are not an artist if you use Poser/everything done with Poser is crap-flaming has been going on over ten years. Who cares anymore? Someone who just found that majority of Poser stuff is nude women made of plastic? Stop the press! Major news coming through! :D

I still think that it would be better if it had LW-support, than if it doesn't - I'm preeetty sure the crap isn't contagious and you can still choose not to make nude women in LightWave even if we had Poser support.

Sour grapes - I don't see Max/Maya-users crying why their software is spoiled with close ties to Poser.

calilifestyle
11-07-2007, 12:15 AM
so jin choung when did you replace oddy

Digital Hermit
11-07-2007, 12:21 AM
If Newtek had just 5000 more seats of LW producing pron and fetish crap like this, I would be pretty happy about it.

I have never used it, don't know much about it or CA.

What would it take to make a 'poser' like plug-in bolted onto/into LW?

Is it more about content? (ie hot model chicks and borderline pedophile ones?)

If these people are so obsessed with this stuff... isn't that well ... a market?

If you show them LW can do it waaaayyyy better..... well.... dunno.

Just trying to do something other than crap all over it.


Its too difficult to model pron and fetish crap in LW. ;)


I have said this before, but it seems no one is considering it.

I really see it as is a way to get some of the extensive content they offer for other "non-figured" items... To me "Turdo $quid" is too pricey for the majority of what they offer and what they offer is mainly in a 3D MAX format with little LW content.

I really see this as an opportunity to get some cheap props.

As someone said before about Vue... peeps crapped all over it until LW offered it with their upgrade package. Personally, I think X-Frog is better and both those products have their place... Nevertheless, if someone does do a render with either of those, you will find very few people condemning their work because they did not model the plants themselves...

I blame public education for how people overreact. - heh

parm
11-07-2007, 03:02 AM
Poser compared to....Lightwave, Max, Maya, C4D, XSI, Houdini, Silo, Modo, Winds 3D, Mudbox, Bryce, Blender, TrueSpace, Zbrush, 3D-Brush, Vue, Animation:Master, Cheetah 3D, Make Human, Anim8or...

Out of that list. 'Make Human" is the only valid comparison. 'Quidam' would be another similar application to compare against.


NOT being "opinionated" makes you one who has no opinion.

I'm afraid that that's not correct.

Being opinionated is quite an unattractive quality.

It involves the conceit. Of ones own experience, and therefore pov. Superseding the views and experience of others. People who are frequently opinionated, or judgemental. Can come across as having a rather 'dyed in the wool' attitude.

Captain Obvious
11-07-2007, 04:23 AM
I don't know why you'd cringe, that's a pretty cool picture. Were the mannequins the final image or were they placeholders or stand-ins for human models to come later?
That is the final image.

I cringe because I could've made it look so much better now. Ah well, you live, you learn, etc.

Digital Hermit
11-07-2007, 06:35 AM
Out of that list. 'Make Human" is the only valid comparison. 'Quidam' would be another similar application to compare against.



I'm afraid that that's not correct.

Being opinionated is quite an unattractive quality.

It involves the conceit. Of ones own experience, and therefore pov. Superseding the views and experience of others. People who are frequently opinionated, or judgemental. Can come across as having a rather 'dyed in the wool' attitude.

Yeah, speaking of Quidam here is a quote from their newsletter...

"In addition, N-Sided will provide “QUIDAM for Poser” based on their QUIDAM character creation software. QUIDAM features the ability to import and export Poser character files, which will be bundled exclusively with Poser Pro, rounding out a complete solution set for professionals that brings Poser content and animations into their workflow.

"We are very excited by this partnership with e frontier, and we are joined by the many people who have asked for Poser and QUIDAM compatibility," said Pierre Bretagnolle, CEO of N-Sided. "Thanks to QUIDAM and to its unique technology, Poser users will now be able to create an endless array of 3D characters. Together Poser and QUIDAM will open a new chapter in 3D character creation." ".

I think it will be cool to see what Lightwavers "old & 'hopefully' new" will do with this new tool.

Digital Hermit
11-07-2007, 07:24 AM
If Newtek had just 5000 more seats of LW producing pron and fetish crap like this, I would be pretty happy about it.

...If these people are so obsessed with this stuff... isn't that well ... a market?


Forgot to comment about your very good point... If you think about it... of all the apps Poser Pro will support - Lightwave is the most affordable Pro App... hmmm.


...If you show them LW can do it waaaayyyy better..... well.... dunno..

What is even funnier is that an extra '5000' seats could fund LW's DV team -sooo, we could see those much-needed improvements come to light much quicker. More people using LW... hmm... now there is a thought.

After all the responses I have read… we definitely need new blood. :neener:

Regards,

CAClark
11-07-2007, 07:55 AM
The bottom line as i see it is this. Check the WIPs and Finished art forums here X% (you decide the value of X for yourself) is a load of crap. I don't mean that it isn't the best. I mean it's crap. These paople have attained that level of crapness without using Poser. Indeed Poser would have had little if any impact on the level of crapness.

Poser can be used to great affect if used well. The fact so many users choose to make tits out fantasy pics (or porn) is a different issue entirely.

The software is almost immaterial, if you're crap, you're crap.

beverins
11-07-2007, 08:15 AM
One thing to note -

The Girl in Daz3d was modeled in Lightwave. However, she's only available as a Poser file now.

I'd say the modeling on that is pretty decent.

Also, Poser has come a long way with its skin shaders...

Captain Obvious
11-07-2007, 09:21 AM
Also, Poser has come a long way with its skin shaders...
From a steaming pile of crap, to a non-steaming one?

meathead
11-07-2007, 09:31 AM
I have used Poser many a times, shamefully.

Pros:
You can export a character, rig it and fix it in LW, and build a scene around it. Charge a client well, for a something like a car accident scene recreation, quickly, where CA is secondary to explaining the whole, big picture. In this case, things like character realism, and SSS isn't necessary. Showing how the scene played out is. Time is money.

Cons:
Poser characters do look alike. You can point one out easily in any animation. The plastic, painted on skin bump maps. Rediculous body types.
They have way too many polygons. Forget using dynamics (even after you reduce polys).
It almost traps you into using it as is, because they are tough to work with in Poser alone. Try to make a fat person that doesn't look like a super muscular big guy, or a woman with a normal sized chest? Good luck. Then all those polys are tough to manipulate in modeler. In the end, you just start from scratch in a real modeler.
Lastly, it really is generally used as soft-core porno.

spec24
11-07-2007, 09:42 AM
... To me "Turdo $quid" is too pricey for the majority of what they offer and what they offer is mainly in a 3D MAX format with little LW content.

It's not really Turbo Squid's fault that the majority of stuff they offer is MAX with little LW content. If there were more LW modelers adding content then they'd offer more LW stuff.

I agree Poser is a tool and it has uses in many different situations - "it's" final output is not going to pass as good work in any situtation I can think of, but I have seen some nice pieces (mostly 2D works) where a poser model was used as a starting point, so, again, it's just a tool.

2BitSculptor
11-07-2007, 09:44 AM
I'm getting a good laugh outa this thread... :neener:

http://www.2bitstudio.com/tempstuff/CaptQAM01.jpg

Steamthrower
11-07-2007, 09:48 AM
It's not really Turbo Squid's fault that the majority of stuff they offer is MAX with little LW content. If there were more LW modelers adding content then they'd offer more LW stuff.

I agree Poser is a tool and it has uses in many different situations - "it's" final output is not going to pass as good work in any situtation I can think of, but I have seen some nice pieces (mostly 2D works) where a poser model was used as a starting point, so, again, it's just a tool.

Yeah, I thought the same thing so I therefore uploaded some old .lwo models I had built. About 500 downloads on one object so far.

krimpr
11-07-2007, 09:50 AM
I'll add my name to the list of people here who are disappointed by the initial lack of LW support for Poser's new "Pro" version. I use LW for my small fabrication company's equipment previsualizations , showing concepts of automated equipment as a sweetener for project proposals. I'm not an artist, but enjoy learning improving my skills with Lightwave when I have the opportunity because I like the product. The ability to create a walk cycle and path for a character and simply import it into Lightwave through the old "Propack" plugin has been cool, and it makes the presentation look just that much more professional to our customers. I have yet to hear a complaint from a customer that I used Poser inside of Lightwave to create my presentation. I don't create or sell art; we design, build and sell automated machinery. Anything that simplifies the process of illustrating our concepts is welcome, and I too am disappointed.

2BitSculptor
11-07-2007, 10:12 AM
oh... image credits:

Image by Coridan
Model: 'Apollo Maximus' by Anton Kisiel
Morph target by Coridan
Color/Texture maps: 'Captain Quint' by ExprssnImg

Titus
11-07-2007, 10:12 AM
Yeah, I thought the same thing so I therefore uploaded some old .lwo models I had built. About 500 downloads on one object so far.

Wow, you must have uploaded some naked girls with big guns then :D.

I have some models there and just a few downloads.

Steamthrower
11-07-2007, 10:22 AM
Naw, just spaceships. Never went for the chick stuff.

Iain
11-07-2007, 10:24 AM
I'm getting a good laugh outa this thread... :neener:

http://www.2bitstudio.com/tempstuff/CaptQAM01.jpg

Is that you?
That's one sexy picter boy.

Who's this Captain Quim feller?

spec24
11-07-2007, 10:25 AM
I'll add my name to the list of people here who are disappointed by the initial lack of LW support for Poser's new "Pro" version. I use LW for my small fabrication company's equipment previsualizations , showing concepts of automated equipment as a sweetener for project proposals. I'm not an artist, but enjoy learning improving my skills with Lightwave when I have the opportunity because I like the product. The ability to create a walk cycle and path for a character and simply import it into Lightwave through the old "Propack" plugin has been cool, and it makes the presentation look just that much more professional to our customers. I have yet to hear a complaint from a customer that I used Poser inside of Lightwave to create my presentation. I don't create or sell art; we design, build and sell automated machinery. Anything that simplifies the process of illustrating our concepts is welcome, and I too am disappointed.

yeah, it appears here that people bashing Poser assume that if you're not an "artist" using LW and Poser then you might as well jump in a lake. There are many people who use LW and Poser and many other apps in technical professions where realistic models are not only unnecessary, but are a major waste of time.
However, passing off oneself as an artist by importing a poser model into a scene and pressing render is another matter entirely :)

Steamthrower
11-07-2007, 10:40 AM
Hey man, sometimes it's dang hard to hit the F9 key, be lenient!

bobakabob
11-07-2007, 11:12 AM
Why do so many people think they are absolute gods in cg, that they have some pre-defined authority that makes their opinion 100% correct in flippantly defining a piece of software as sh1t?

Poser may not be a great all in one rendering/animation solution, but it HAS a place. I know people who use poser models as a starting base for character models. Hell, I don't do characters, so I'd use it without hesitation if I needed a character. Because I see a use for it doesn't make it genius. Because you don't like it doesn't make it sh1t. Get over yourselves.

The level of self opinionatedness is astounding.

Well said... Wow, another Poser flame war. There's just a wee bit too much snobbery and huffing and puffing all over a line of code. How many self appointed 'pro CG artists' here started out in Poser and Bryce eh?

Sure there's lots of derivative and homogenous Poser art but the same applies to Lightwave, Max, XSI. There's good art and bad art, that is all (as Wilde would say). I defy anyone to make artwork from this misunderstood app as innovative and spectacular as Richard Marchand, for example.

I happen to enjoy the process of building original models poly by poly (fool that I am) but appreciate not everyone is into character modelling or has the time in a production environment. Some artists here make technical vehicle models I can only dream of. Poser's animation might be limited but it does happen to have a cool little walk cycle generator that is cheap and exports bvh files which can be customised in Lightwave. Check it out :)

DiedonD
11-07-2007, 12:27 PM
I remember the time when I was searching for a 3D app, and Poser was the first recomended by a AE DVD tutor I had.

So I went to VTC, the place where they give all kindsa tuts for alota apps (Lightwave included). And I check Posers tuts, as far, as I recall it was something like this:

1) Introduction: In this Poser you have the main window here, tools over there, and now hey, YOU CAN MOVE WINDOWS here and there, put them wherever you want them...

2) Whats New: Well new in Poser is that now you can MOVE WINDOWS here and there, put them where you want them and....

3) Adaptability: Now Poser is highly adaptible to users request cause it offers MOVABILITY OF WINDOWS, now you can arrange them whenever you want them here and there...

Now, I just started going beyond 2D at that time, and listening to the TUTOR, someone who you would think knows alot of the app, you either think hes trying to rip you off, or the app is so damn bad, that the only thing that its proud off is moving windows whenever the user wanted to!

kopperdrake
11-07-2007, 12:35 PM
Trust you northern lads to speak sense - totally with you on this :thumbsup: It's great to have the time to add bells and whistles to a project but sometimes you need to be quick and dirty. I looked at Poser Pro for some work and will keep an eye on it, it might have a place in the arch viz side of things. *Any* support for LightWave is a good thing.

BTW D'you guys work at the same place?

mrpapabeis
11-07-2007, 12:56 PM
Fellow 'wavers,

Just a thought. Perhaps there is some merit to being a story-teller as opposed to an "artist". To me software is just a tool to help me. If it is easier to use, so much the better. Especially if i'm looking for inspiration or trying to Pre-Vis. If I need to, I'll hire a mesh-artist to do the thing right later on. So gentlemen, ladies, think before you bash people. They might be looking to hire you in the future. Just a thought.


GP

Steamthrower
11-07-2007, 01:08 PM
I have no doubt that you are correct. But the points in this thread, at least the way I meant mine to be taken, are that Poser is hardly ever used in a final production, that you can normally tell a Poser scene when you see it, and that some people pass off their Poser art as "their own".

archijam
11-07-2007, 01:51 PM
I would hate to think that Lightwave would get judged on what it usually produces than what it actually CAN do ... (if only due to the fact that there are a high proportion of users in newbie state)

Lightwave needs the 'support' of other apps. Without it, it will become more isolated and less talked about. Be it Poser (which I haven't touched for years), or any other 3rd party app.

j.

loki74
11-07-2007, 02:14 PM
Fellow 'wavers,

Just a thought. Perhaps there is some merit to being a story-teller as opposed to an "artist". To me software is just a tool to help me. If it is easier to use, so much the better. Especially if i'm looking for inspiration or trying to Pre-Vis. If I need to, I'll hire a mesh-artist to do the thing right later on. So gentlemen, ladies, think before you bash people. They might be looking to hire you in the future. Just a thought.


GP

Think before we "bash" people? I think it should be apparent how much thought "we" put into this subject. First, Poser's application to pre-vis is established and well accepted. Nobody here is arguing that. Secondly, being a story teller is great. But if you want to tell your story visually, well, you kind of have to be an artist, or as you point out, be able to hire one. If you want to tell stories and hire artists to make them visually, that's fine. Just don't pretend to be an artist because of it. Screenwriters don't claim to have any expertise in production design; likewise, a storyteller shouldn't call himself a "3D artist" unless he actually does 3D art.

If a storyteller is using poser as a tool to represent their ideas to an animator/3D artist they are looking to hire, there is no problem with that. But that is not the case with the poser community at large (from what I've seen/understand).

bobakabob
11-07-2007, 02:17 PM
*Any* support for LightWave is a good thing.

Heh... absolutely.



BTW D'you guys work at the same place?

Nope, isn't Craig working in London? Sheffield does seem to be a hive of CG these days. Maybe 'grim up north' no longer... Red Star Studios (http://www.redstarstudio.co.uk/index_017.asp)and Ark VFX (http://www.arkvfx.net/)both use Lightwave in their pipelines and there are several games companies based here. The Showroom Bar is often full of very 'pasty' looking people with studio tan ;)

Sheff is good for comics too... Paul Grist (http://www.weisshahn.de/kane/) (Jack Staff / Kane) and Matt Brooker aka D'Israeli (http://www.disraeli-demon.com/) (of 2000AD fame) are just two great artists who hail from these parts.

Kopperdrake, Derby's just down the road... when are us northerners meeting up for a beer?

IMI
11-07-2007, 02:31 PM
Lightwave needs the 'support' of other apps. Without it, it will become more isolated and less talked about. Be it Poser (which I haven't touched for years), or any other 3rd party app.

j.


That's assuming that they're going o get that "support" right. The former Poser Pro Pack offered Lw support - support which didn't work in alot of cases. IIRC, it was billed to offer import support for LW 6.5 -right around the time that LW 7 was released.
Granted, that was a different company, one which went out of business due to some idiotic mistakes, but as I pointed out earlier, E-frontier had trouble getting Poser scenes into their own app, Shade. I think it was fixed, sort of, but I believe the current Poser still can't be gotten into the current Shade without some kind of workaround. if htey had so much trouble making it work with Shade, what makes anyone think it'll be OK in Max, Maya, LW...?

And speaking of support, they didn't even alter the LWO import/export option at all, even for Poser 7, yet bill it as having LWO support. LWO2 support, specifically. Sure, you can import a LWO, and export a LWO, but - get this - with no UV data. That's not LWO2. LWO2 was the first LWO format to have UV data. it is a main selling point for LWO2, if not the whole point of it.
It's pretty silly to call that "support" for a format, especially considering you can't apply an image texture in Poser without UV data. And, Poser relies almost exclusively on the ability to apply an image as a UV'd texture.

We've been lucky so far. Currently getting Poser figures into any of the major 3D packages is enough work to deter alot of the Poser users.
I can hardly wait until all the 3D software galleries are filled with Vicki's...

Then again, it might not be so bad. Considering Poser is inexpensive and enjoys a user base of mostly hobbyists, the majority of them won't be buying max, maya, and LW, and only the more serious will be using it, and making decent stuff.
Then again, we could also see our forums inundated with thousands of pre-teen WaReZ kids...

Actually, I don't care about Poser, E-frontier, import plugins, the art they create, or any of that. Whether it happens or doesn't means virtually nothing to me - I just haven't made a comment in this thread in a while and felt it was about time. :D

Steamthrower
11-07-2007, 02:52 PM
Whether it happens or doesn't means virtually nothing to me - I just haven't made a comment in this thread in a while and felt it was about time. :D

Levity, IMI, levity...

kremesch73
11-07-2007, 03:58 PM
E-frontier had trouble getting Poser scenes into their own app, Shade.

Actually, I think they had those problems because Shade is crap too.

But you make a valid point about their inability to write a trustworthy importer/exporter (and that actually applies to both those programs). So, yeah...

mrpapabeis
11-07-2007, 06:37 PM
Think before we "bash" people? I think it should be apparent how much thought "we" put into this subject. First, Poser's application to pre-vis is established and well accepted. Nobody here is arguing that. Secondly, being a story teller is great. But if you want to tell your story visually, well, you kind of have to be an artist, or as you point out, be able to hire one. If you want to tell stories and hire artists to make them visually, that's fine. Just don't pretend to be an artist because of it. Screenwriters don't claim to have any expertise in production design; likewise, a storyteller shouldn't call himself a "3D artist" unless he actually does 3D art.

If a storyteller is using poser as a tool to represent their ideas to an animator/3D artist they are looking to hire, there is no problem with that. But that is not the case with the poser community at large (from what I've seen/understand).

Thank you for so eloquently proveing my point !

GP

voriax
11-07-2007, 08:06 PM
Hey, this is turning from a Poser hating thread, into a Poser loving thread..
Maybe there is some merit in what you're saying.. maybe I should start using Poser.



Oh wait, nah. Poser's crap.
:)

dudemanguy
11-07-2007, 09:13 PM
So if it were a vehical to get content into lightwave including rigged and animated characters, would that not add value to LW?

I mean there's about a million models available on Content Paradise that are set up already. So it seems the point of Poser "plugging into" LW is a valid one.



I have no doubt that you are correct. But the points in this thread, at least the way I meant mine to be taken, are that Poser is hardly ever used in a final production, that you can normally tell a Poser scene when you see it, and that some people pass off their Poser art as "their own".

jin choung
11-07-2007, 10:08 PM
So if it were a vehical to get content into lightwave including rigged and animated characters, would that not add value to LW?


oh come on....

rigged and animated [email protected]#$ is still [email protected]#$ for cryin' out loud.

poser has its place when the stuff made with it DOESN'T MATTER for the intended piece or is INCIDENTAL or way the [email protected]#$ in the background.

as for the "good" stuff made with it, even if it's conceivable that something created with it and NOTHING BUT it looks good... to what extent can someone take credit for it?!

yeck....

and again, there are hints of some sense of "moral superiority" to withhold judgment and not be "elitist" or somesuch nonsense...

is it elitist to denounce [email protected]#$?

there is NO MORAL VIRTUE to not being a HARSH CRITIC... to having a DISCERNING EYE and not being DELUSIONAL.

this doesn't mean we seek out to criticize people or reduce them to tears.

but it is ESSENTIAL for you to be able to tell what is good from what is [email protected]#$.

and this point is beyond mere condemnation of poser. but it speaks to the unfortunate "circle of [email protected]#$iness" that radiates out from poser at its center....

DISCERNMENT AND REFINEMENT OF TASTE AND SENSIBILITY IS GOOD.

practice that and don't hide behind somekind of "nonjudgmental"ity bs.

jin

dudemanguy
11-07-2007, 10:33 PM
I usually never get into these discussions as I'm typically too busy for this type of thing. But that's a rediculous reply. I thought I would be able to engage someone here in a legit and sensible discussion.

Anyone else care to offer an actual reply on the question I posed? I'm really interested in discussing if Poser and Poser content do add value to LW and not listening to rants that obviously have underlying motives.

It's already been said that people produce crap with both Poser and LW and that's well know. The Poser content I use saves me time and money. Even if I have to repurpose it in some way. I'm a Max/BodyStudio user primarily because it's what the company pays for, but I'm a long time LW hobbyist and made my way here from Google blog search thinking I'm going to upgrade to v9. Poser support would probably seal the deal for me.

I hope Jin is not indicitave of the users here but if so, my impression of the community is anything but professional.

Jin,
You hate Poser, I get it, you probably have never used it. Maybe have had some reason to feel inferior to those that do? Have you really looked at how versatile the characters are? The amount of unique models there are? Ever heard of a morph target? 3D paint? If stuff looks like crap it's because those using Poser either don't take the time, or don't have the skills to go the next step.

Show us some of your work...... you can see mine on TLC, History Channel, and HBO among others. And yes I use Poser.




oh come on....

rigged and animated [email protected]#$ is still [email protected]#$ for cryin' out loud.

poser has its place when the stuff made with it DOESN'T MATTER for the intended piece or is INCIDENTAL or way the [email protected]#$ in the background.

as for the "good" stuff made with it, even if it's conceivable that something created with it and NOTHING BUT it looks good... to what extent can someone take credit for it?!

yeck....

and again, there are hints of some sense of "moral superiority" to withhold judgment and not be "elitist" or somesuch nonsense...

is it elitist to denounce [email protected]#$?

there is NO MORAL VIRTUE to not being a HARSH CRITIC... to having a DISCERNING EYE and not being DELUSIONAL.

this doesn't mean we seek out to criticize people or reduce them to tears.

but it is ESSENTIAL for you to be able to tell what is good from what is [email protected]#$.

and this point is beyond mere condemnation of poser. but it speaks to the unfortunate "circle of [email protected]#$iness" that radiates out from poser at its center....

DISCERNMENT AND REFINEMENT OF TASTE AND SENSIBILITY IS GOOD.

practice that and don't hide behind somekind of "nonjudgmental"ity bs.

jin

jin choung
11-08-2007, 12:15 AM
Jin,
You hate Poser, I get it, you probably have never used it. Maybe have had some reason to feel inferior to those that do? Have you really looked at how versatile the characters are? The amount of unique models there are? Ever heard of a morph target? 3D paint? If stuff looks like crap it's because those using Poser either don't take the time, or don't have the skills to go the next step.

Show us some of your work...... you can see mine on TLC, History Channel, and HBO among others. And yes I use Poser.

precious.

i simply refuse to name drop to satisfy the likes of this.

are you so mentally incapacitated as to be incapable of understanding the point that you needn't BE A MASTER TO KNOW [email protected]# WHEN YOU SEE IT?!?!?!?!

really?!

do i need to be a master architect to know that the house is a wreck?

or an auto mechanic to know that the car is junk?

or an academy award winning director to know that a movie stinks?!

are you seriously fing kidding me?

sigh....

jin

p.s. i have used it. forced to. on a paid gig. horrible horrible horrible. poser is [email protected]#$. good fing riddance.

loki74
11-08-2007, 12:20 AM
So if it were a vehical to get content into lightwave including rigged and animated characters, would that not add value to LW?

I mean there's about a million models available on Content Paradise that are set up already. So it seems the point of Poser "plugging into" LW is a valid one.

Sure, I'll answer your question.

If Poser was vehicle to get content into LW? Sure. It has its use in previs etc. LW support in pretty much anything is great, and I fully support it.

...is that going to make be like poser as a program? nope.



So what? I don't care if 99% of the "Poser community at large" produces crap. If only 1% produces something that looks good and works well using Poser, the app is not crap or worthless - period!

The point is... we need software vendors to support LW no matter what. If one stops here and then another stops there, and then another...

First, the general utility of Poser (as related to the quality of work done with it) is not a question I was attempting to address; I was merely agreeing to its utility as a storytelling device, a means by which to convey an idea which the originator does not have the skill to render in full (and therefore is hiring someone to do so), and stating that I just don't see this happening.

Second, I completely agree. Never have I stated that Poser as an app is crap or worthless. I WOULD use in previs/animatic. POSER DOES HAVE A VALID USE. I AM NOT CONTESTING THIS POINT! How many times will I have to REPEAT THAT before it sinks in?! Sorry for shouting, but come on! And 3rd parties supporting LW? Of course I want that, regardless of what the app does or if I like it or not. The more LW gets, the better for all of us.


You people bashing Poser here look down upon it because apparently all you can see is the crap. I wonder how many artists out there see LW the same? Hhmm?

No, I don't bash Poser because I think it's all crap. Being all crap is not a reason to bash something, otherwise (as you and everyone else points out) I would be incessantly bashing LW. Theres LOTS of crap made with LW. I make lots of crap. What I'm bashing is the reciprocal back-patting done by "Poser Artistes" over stuff that is crap, as though its the greatest, sexiest thing on earth. Regardless of what app you use, that mentality is the surefire way to not improve. Oddity was an a**hole about it, but the non-extreme version of his philosophy has merit.

Yes, that's a major derail from the OP's point. Strictly sticking to OP's topic, I am ALL in favor of Poser getting legitimate LW support. This is good. I can't (at the moment) think of a single 3rd party who, by supporting it in their app, could harm LW. So again, LW support in Poser? Awesome. Poser in animatics/previs/archivis? Great.

jin choung
11-08-2007, 12:25 AM
So what? I don't care if 99% of the "Poser community at large" produces crap. If only 1% produces something that looks good and works well using Poser, the app is not crap or worthless.

but even if the 1% looks good, what does it say about the "artist" if the focal point of whatever he did involved poser?

ACTUALLY - LOOK AT IT THIS WAY:

what if there was a product that produced ABSOLUTELY PERFECT, BEAUTIFUL, PHOTOREAL people with little or no intervention from the user.

i'm not even going to bother making my point.

just think about that.

jin

jin choung
11-08-2007, 12:27 AM
We want e-frontier to support Lightwave.

no we don't.

jin

jin choung
11-08-2007, 12:32 AM
Maybe have had some reason to feel inferior to those that do?

LOL!!!

oh man... i missed this one!!!

oh yeah... yeah, that's it.

ohhhhhhhhh wow. again, i appeal to people's GRASP OF REALITY.

BY ALL FING MEANS, please please please, when you submit your resume to ILM and PIXAR, PLEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAASE list your mastery and command of poser!

oh baby.... LOL!!!

man, i'm not even working at a place like that and when poser is mentioned on a resume or reel, the entire office goes up and the disdain is PALPABLE.

it's like having aol as your isp or something....

oh mama... that's a good one.

jin

parm
11-08-2007, 01:17 AM
there is NO MORAL VIRTUE to not being a HARSH CRITIC... to having a DISCERNING EYE and not being DELUSIONAL.jin

Is not possible then. To be discerning and exercise good judgment, without being judgmental.

Besides. It's difficult to make sense of what you're saying. It's not very specific. In what way/s is Poser [email protected]?

Is it Buggy? Does it's meshes have poor polygon flow? What exactly do you see as it's limitations?

Either way. When even a 'crappy' app like Poser. Deigns to have lightwave as a hosting plugin, (whatever that means). It makes you wonder what the folks over at 'Poser World' think about Lightwave as an application.

bobakabob
11-08-2007, 01:19 AM
oh come on....

rigged and animated [email protected]#$ is still [email protected]#$ for cryin' out loud.

poser has its place when the stuff made with it DOESN'T MATTER for the intended piece or is INCIDENTAL or way the [email protected]#$ in the background.

as for the "good" stuff made with it, even if it's conceivable that something created with it and NOTHING BUT it looks good... to what extent can someone take credit for it?!

yeck....

and again, there are hints of some sense of "moral superiority" to withhold judgment and not be "elitist" or somesuch nonsense...

is it elitist to denounce [email protected]#$?

there is NO MORAL VIRTUE to not being a HARSH CRITIC... to having a DISCERNING EYE and not being DELUSIONAL.

this doesn't mean we seek out to criticize people or reduce them to tears.

but it is ESSENTIAL for you to be able to tell what is good from what is [email protected]#$.

and this point is beyond mere condemnation of poser. but it speaks to the unfortunate "circle of [email protected]#$iness" that radiates out from poser at its center....

DISCERNMENT AND REFINEMENT OF TASTE AND SENSIBILITY IS GOOD.

practice that and don't hide behind somekind of "nonjudgmental"ity bs.

jin

Jin,

It's not necessary to shout. Why not calm down, lie in a darkened room for a while then take a look at this. (http://www.richardmarchand.com/)

jin choung
11-08-2007, 01:47 AM
Is not possible then. To be discerning and exercise good judgment, without being judgmental.

listen, especially if you apply a religious angle on that word "judgmental", there is an urge to shy away from it.

but when i apply it to judging works of art or images, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

when i excercise discernment, i am being judgmental.

if you MUST split hairs, perhaps you CAN be discerning and exercise good judgment without being judgmental (exasperating but i'll just allow it for the heckuvit)... at issue: can you call [email protected]#$ when you see it? is your eye properly calibrated?

Besides. It's difficult to make sense of what you're saying. It's not very specific. In what way/s is Poser [email protected]?

Is it Buggy? Does it's meshes have poor polygon flow? What exactly do you see as it's limitations?

i am pretty darn specific. the primary issue is almost everything made with poser is immediately IDENTIFIABLE AS SUCH. such a fingerprint is NOT GOOD.

not to mention that the stuff isn't that great... it is not photorealistic and they are smack dab in the valley of the uncanny (look it up if you're not familiar).

another issue is the issue of AUTHORSHIP... if someone just uses poser to make money, that's one thing... but if they're trying to play themselves off as an artist, then their artistry is diluted by the presence (more or less depending) on SOMEONE ELSE'S work.

if you use a stock object to populate a street scene in transformers where you did the animation, then the presence of the stock objects do not take away from someone's ability to gauge your ability as an animator.

but if you are a MODELER and you present a scene that is chock full of stock objects, well THAT IS INDEED PROBLEMATIC.

re: bobakob's link... yah, some of that stuff looks pretty good. most of it was not pure poser i assume? but the very fact that poser was used AT ALL takes away from his claim on authorship. it dilutes your participation in an image like that and calls his abilities into question (fairly or not). in an interview, bosses are gonna want to know, what's him and what's poser.

basically the issue with poser is the same issue with STOCK OBJECTS. they have their uses but if you render stock and proclaim yourself an artist, that is just sad sad sad.

Either way. When even a 'crappy' app like Poser. Deigns to have lightwave as a hosting plugin, (whatever that means). It makes you wonder what the folks over at 'Poser World' think about Lightwave as an application.

meh... they're just looking at market share vs. effort. i'm sure they're not looking at quality of software or somesuch thing....

honestly, you folks may care or think that their support or not of lw matters in some way.

you are free to think that.

i honestly celebrate their "tragic" "backseating" of lw. they can go pollute another community with their hacky hack-ware.

jin

jin choung
11-08-2007, 01:56 AM
Sorry, that doesn't hold water - you're stretching to make YOUR point that the focal point is the figure. What if I used a Poser figure or two or three in a beautiful landscape and the figures looked great - but were not the focal point? What does that then say about the artist.

I now see what you often try to do. You narrow the focus down so that the parameters must fit your argument - you don't want anyone to be able to prove your point wrong. So that's it. You HAD to say focal point in using Poser characters. If it were a landscape with a few cars and there were Poser people in cars and everything looked really good.... that would diffuse your argument. It HAD to be the focal point! You probably don't even realize you do it!

And your other argument about creating "ABSOLUTELY PERFECT, BEAUTIFUL, PHOTOREAL people with little or no intervention from the user" makes no sense. As software continues to develop it makes it easier for ARTISTS to work. How difficult was it to make realistic water years ago in CG? Now we can do it with relative ease. So now the compositions I create using water make me less of an artist because it's easier to create water now?

Please Jin, get off of your almight horse - YOU think about it. Carry it out to it's logical conclusion. And PLEASE.... don't come back to me and say "but no, it is YOU who have not thought about this and have not taken it to its logical conclusion" which is what you almost ALWAYS do. Why? Because we are mere mortals and Jin Knows All and Sees All. You sound like the stereotypical Harvard snob talking to someone who just graduated highschool. :D

blah blah blah

BECAUSE FOCAL POINT VS. INCIDENTAL MAKES A DIFFERENCE - in HOW MUCH credit is taken away from the "artist".

ANY use of stock objects on an image reduces the artist's claim on the work. the issue is how much.

(again, read the other post - if you're an animator, you're golden. but if you're a modeler, if you're making an image - stock objects are problematic)

so you're saying if a person renders stock objects as his focal point, he's an artist?

good luck with that.

blah blah blah

jin

mav3rick
11-08-2007, 02:15 AM
Eh, Poser is kind of crap anyway.


agreed totaly

waste of brain coding time.

jin choung
11-08-2007, 02:17 AM
There you go again in adjusting the parameters. Most of the people who create "art" with Poser don't say that "I made all of this stuff from scratch and everything you see here is due to my skills as a modeler." No. It's VERY much like a photographer going to a location and taking an astounding picture. Just because he didn't create anything in the picture doesn't make him any less the artist. Those who use Poser attempt to create art. You try to box this argument in (again) narrowing down to make your point. It's not going to work.(

first of all,

stop being such a baby. argue the point and stop getting all personal and... hurt... of all things....

THE CLAIMS OF THE PHOTOGRAPHER ARE CLEAR. he is NOT CLAIMING that he made the eiffel tower or yosemite or whatever.

with these "artists" WHAT EXACTLY IS THEIR CLAIM THEN? i contend that it is MURKY and their authorship is indeed DILUTED by the use of poser.

again, poser is almost a footnote at this point, the issue is about STOCK OBJECTS.

especially with these pics of chicks and stuff....? what exactly are they claiming here? that they know how to use poser? ugh.

"it's not going to work," blah blah blah....

and either stop fighting or just fight... don't keep b#$ching and whining about "i don't even know why i bother..."

are you a 1950s housewife or something?!

jin

CAClark
11-08-2007, 02:48 AM
While Jin has done my head in to some degree in this thread, I should say he is completely right to say that one needn't be a master of anything in order to know something is wrong. I don't model characters, but I know when I character is wrong or poorly modelled/formed. I think we can all get over that issue and stop demanding proof of his work. That's not the point.

parm
11-08-2007, 02:49 AM
[COLOR="Blue"]listen, especially if you apply a religious angle on that word "judgmental",.....

but when i apply it to judging works of art or images, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

when i excercise discernment, i am being judgmental.jin

I see.

I was thinking more along the lines of boorish and overbearing



can you call [email protected]#$ when you see it? is your eye properly calibrated?

LOL. I may borrow and use, at the earliest opportunity.


another issue is the issue of AUTHORSHIP... if someone just uses poser to make money, that's one thing... but if they're trying to play themselves off as an artist, then their artistry is diluted by the presence (more or less depending) on SOMEONE ELSE'S work.

I don't think authorship is much of an issue here really. From what you're saying at least.

In strictly pragmatic, workmanlike terms. Is Poser useful and time saving?

Sande
11-08-2007, 02:49 AM
I think Poser users are a bit like nazis - and this judgmental art police-thing reminds me a bit of gestapo.

Ok, it's done, go on - I just thought that this discussion has not reached the bottom fast enough, so I wanted to help you guys out... ;)

parm
11-08-2007, 03:17 AM
Please stop with the ludicrous analogies, they make no sense at all. Give any idiot, with no visual understanding and no knowledge of light and form, a camera and he'll take crap pictures. Taking pictures and processing them is a fine craft. It can not in any way be compared to using Poser.

Of course it can be compared, use exactly the same sentence:

'Give any idiot, with no visual understanding and no knowledge of light and form, Poser and he'll make crap pictures'.


THE CLAIMS OF THE PHOTOGRAPHER ARE CLEAR. he is NOT CLAIMING that he made the eiffel tower or yosemite or whatever.


Nor does a painter claim those things, when they paint a scene. Like the photographer and the cg guy. They are all image making.


with these "artists" WHAT EXACTLY IS THEIR CLAIM THEN?

I don't know what their claim is. Everyone has different priorities.

Maybe they claim to be making pictures.

Qexit
11-08-2007, 03:56 AM
Ah well, at least one serious online CG publication thinks Poser is worthy of a place in the professional world:

http://vfxworld.com/?atype=articles&id=3441&page=1

BTW (playing Devil's Advocate for a second :D ), can anyone point me to some recent character animation in film or TV that does not involve the use of mo-cap ? A lot of the discussion on this thread has been about how Poser is a form of cheating, in one way or another, because so much is 'done for you'. Mo-cap based animation is also a similar form of cheating and should not be used to demonstrate anyone's skills as an animator. A lot of modern character animation is really just sticking clever shells onto a physical actors mo-cap performance and nothing to do with real animation. Are these efforts really any different or any better than the way Poser works ?

Give me some good old fashioned stop motion effects any day over a lot of the current unrealistic mo-cap dross that is being churned out :D

CAClark
11-08-2007, 04:37 AM
I think Poser users are a bit like nazis - and this judgmental art police-thing reminds me a bit of gestapo.

Ok, it's done, go on - I just thought that this discussion has not reached the bottom fast enough, so I wanted to help you guys out... ;)

Almost 9 full pages on my screen before the parallel to Nazi's. That was quite an achievement people, well done! :D

Lightwolf
11-08-2007, 05:14 AM
BTW (playing Devil's Advocate for a second :D ), can anyone point me to some recent character animation in film or TV that does not involve the use of mo-cap ?
Of course... anything by Pixar. And it shows.

Cheers,
Mike

Glendalough
11-08-2007, 05:19 AM
Almost 9 full pages on my screen before the parallel to Nazi's. That was quite an achievement people, well done! :D

What's this expression for bringing up Hitler or the Nazis? It's some idea that the augument becomes void or something....there's a name or expresion for it?

Like the idea of using Poser for car crashes.

Lightwolf
11-08-2007, 05:21 AM
What's this expression for bringing up Hitler or the Nazis?
Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)

Cheers,
Mike

Glendalough
11-08-2007, 05:31 AM
Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)

Cheers,
Mike

That's it!

Wonder what the Nazi's would have thought of Poser? Would they have viewed it as a tool or a generator of degenerate art?

archijam
11-08-2007, 05:36 AM
Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)

Cheers,
Mike

Mike that's awesome. :)

This thread ... no so.

j.

Glendalough
11-08-2007, 05:41 AM
Do we really want to go there? But then again... it would be a fast way to get this thread closed down.

Well it might just help to AMPLIFY peoples ideas.

Maybe i better shut and get back to work, Strength thru Poser...

Iain
11-08-2007, 05:50 AM
Yeah I had a teacher who used to say that if any conversation went on long enough, Hitler inevitably came up.
He said he would deliberately bring it up early he was bored and wanted to cause trouble.

Kind of like all these religious signatures you get here. You guys must be doing that just to provoke animosity.
You know people here (religious and non religious) don't share the same views as you and yet put yours out there knowing that it is, without doubt, the most inflammatory subject .

So now we have the backlash of signtures with anti religion in them.
Seriously, that isn't any less tasteless and the whole thing has as much of a place here as this post does on this thread.

Where's my lunch? hrumph.

Phil
11-08-2007, 06:06 AM
I'm scratching my head wondering how Hitler came up in relation to Poser. I cannot be arsed to read the thread, though. Usually it's someone ranting out soft porn in relation to Poser *shrug*

I've only ever used Poser to export purchased assets out to other applications (e.g. via the CR2Loader plugin, or similar), because I cannot be bothered to model them :) Works quite nicely, although really heavy geometry in combination with the horribly slow deformation engine in both Modeler and Layout makes me unhappy.

Steamthrower
11-08-2007, 06:07 AM
You all are Nazis. Some of you act like Hitler. I myself am Mengele. :D

krimpr
11-08-2007, 06:47 AM
no we don't.

jin

Speak for yourself Jin; as has been repeatedly pointed out here, not everyone uses their software with the same goals as you do. For many here, it's useful, plain and simple. Nobody is expecting you to petition EF for LW inclusion, but I don't think that it's wrong to be tolerant of those who wish it. It really shouldn't have such a negative effect on you either way.

CAClark
11-08-2007, 07:06 AM
That's the one, I couldn't remember the name!

dudemanguy
11-08-2007, 08:15 AM
This was my point. 99% of the stuff out there is regurgitated crap so what. IF an artist takes the time to model morph tagets based on a supplied base mesh, paint his own texture maps using the templates, then why is that not legit? In a production environment where thinsg are extrememly fast paced, this is money. I agree, most of the stuff is the same old. Nothing Jin says holds water with me. He's either skipping his meds or his GF left him for a Poser user. I simply wanted to know if others found merit in this combination and it seems they do. It's too bad the discussion is clouded with all the Jin B.S.

Three Posts and I'm out, not woth my time here. Good luck to all of you.

Jin,

G.A.L.L. put up or shut up.


If doing digital, figurative art is important to you. Learn to model the damn human figure already. Everything else is friggin lazy and has no artistic merit whatsoever.

I'm sure Poser poseurs disagree, but they're only fooling themselves.

If you want to use Poser figures for medical illustration or visualisation - that I have no problem with. It's technical illustration with fast turn around. It's a totally different ball game than doing art and seeking recognition for the art you produce and that alone.

Poser has merits, but as an artist's tool it's pretty much worthless, artistic value wise. It's not a craft, using pre-made figures with horrible anatomy and deformation in your "artwork".

loki74
11-08-2007, 08:56 AM
This was my point. 99% of the stuff out there is regurgitated crap so what. IF an artist takes the time to model morph tagets based on a supplied base mesh, paint his own texture maps using the templates, then why is that not legit?

Okay. Jin's style of argument may not be all that great. But I love how you just managed to completely miss my post.

It's not the degree of "legit" that is in question. For me, it's the fact that these guys sell this sh!t off as great 3D art. When people using LW, Max, Maya, etc produce sh!t of equal calibur to what one might get out of Poser, typically they know it and the only reason it reaches the Internet is so that they can get pointers on how to improve. Poser users seem to think it's good enough, if not the greatest thing since sliced bread. The fact that it also took them much less effort is also somewhat annoying, but that's not the crux of the issue.


He's either skipping his meds or his GF left him for a Poser user.

No need to get personal.

IMI
11-08-2007, 09:46 AM
Poser users seem to think it's good enough, if not the greatest thing since sliced bread.


That's *my* main problem with Poser - not the program, but its users. Renderosity, for example is filled with threads of people whining that they couldn't upload any more pictures that day, or that so-and-so left a bad comment - even if it was true.... The level of immaturity is astounding.

CAClark
11-08-2007, 09:50 AM
That's *my* main problem with Poser - not the program, but its users. Renderosity, for example is filled with threads of people whining that they couldn't upload any more pictures that day, or that so-and-so left a bad comment - even if it was true.... The level of immaturity is astounding.

Can't argue with that, but all the same, it has no bearing on Posers product, what it can or can't do, and the place it has within a competitive industry.

Cheers!

IMI
11-08-2007, 10:00 AM
I don't think I ever did say anything particularly negative about the product, aside from its LWO import/export shortcomings.
Although I don't think it has a very firm standing in the animation industry. I would use it for its BVH export, yes, or for quickly getting an idea across to a client, yes.
The big problem is its content that is ships with and what's mostly available for it. Due to its very nature as an insta-pr0n tool, combined with its insane user base, it's developed a seriously bad rep.
Well, the people who believe that unless you make everything yourself it's not art have a certain point, but then again, how much advertising and TV commercials actually *is* art? That's part of the competitive industry too.

meathead
11-08-2007, 10:51 AM
Jin,

It's not necessary to shout. Why not calm down, lie in a darkened room for a while then take a look at this. (http://www.richardmarchand.com/)

Wow, finally something worth looking at in this thread. That guys work is amazing. Oh well, now I have a new Fav artist. Thanks bobakabob.

kremesch73
11-08-2007, 11:47 AM
Macaroni and Cheese is absolute CRAP, and anyone who likes it lacks taste! And if you can't identify Crap when you taste it...

Oh, but you haven't tried it the way I make it...

No! You're missing the point! Crap is Crap...

Sorry, just couldn't resist.

I could swear I've read this thread before...

Deja vu? Anyone?

calilifestyle
11-08-2007, 12:09 PM
the think the real point was missed or maybe it was hit just few didnt enjoy the idea of adding poser to their pipeline or ppl that already do... from the looks of its not a question of crap but a question of what makes this art or one an artist. from what i believe we are in the art of making money and if ppl are making money off whatever app they use who cares. Only thing i care about is that the App i sometimes use has many more options open to it. if you doen't want to use it, dont ... this topic has been blow way out of water,thnx to wantbe Oddy copycats...( yeah i know a jab ). i mean didn't think we could use profanity in the forum yet homie has been doing it since he 1st walked into this disscusion or is it ok to be an @$$. ;-)

Speedmonk42
11-08-2007, 01:18 PM
How many users do they have?

Verlon
11-08-2007, 01:26 PM
...
but it does mean that we both were too lazy to do it from scratch (or it wouldn't make sense to do it from scratch, ie, in previs)... I guess the difference is that I would never put it in my final cut.

... I KNOW I can't model a photoreal horse on my own. As an artist, I lack the skills. I'm willing to admit it. But I'm not about to take someone else's model, tweak it some, and call it my own.

...
This isn't about elitism dude. Poser and any manner of premade will never be as respectable or (on average) high quality as originals.

Not to bust your chops Loki, but that is EXACTLY what you do in Lightwave... Rather than painstakingly drawing and painting your image, you use someone else's program to calculate how an image shaped like your object would look with lighting like this.

While you provide the vision for the object (assuming you model it yourself), and the idea for the lighting, it is the computer that does literally trillions of calcuations to render that image.

This is EXACTLY how many 'oil and canvas' artists feel about CG artists. Its the same elitism only now we're lower on the chain.

Heck, a LOT of people (with really short memories) feel like that in movies. They rag on CG and scream for practical shooting because 'all CG looks fake.' 'No,' I tell them, 'all the CG you can SEE might look fake, but there is plenty of CG you just don't catch because it looks real. By definition, the only CG you recognize is the bad CG.'

The same could be said of Poser. Yes, it is easy for someone to slap a scene together that they could never model and post it on the web. Yes, it could be crap. Coal is more common than diamond, after all. But, if that is the tool that helps someone achieve their goal, then it serves a purpose.

Remember that YOUR inability to find a use for a tool does not mean that the tool is useless.

loki74
11-08-2007, 01:29 PM
Oddy copycats...( yeah i know a jab ).

Ahuh. So now anyone who feels that valid criticism is necessary for improvement is an Oddy copycat? Lame tactic.

Like I said, Oddity's philosophy was taken to the extreme, and on top of that he was an a**hole about it. I don't think anyone here would call someone's honest attempt at fur on a cat "like that of a dead cat with mange," even when said person wasn't touting his work as anything great. Or any of the other ridiculous stuff he said, personal attacks... et cetera.

Iain
11-08-2007, 01:43 PM
It's actually not Hitler we dredge up every thread is it?

kremesch73
11-08-2007, 01:49 PM
Hitler... Nazi's... What's the difference...

I like Hitler, we have the same sign :D

loki74
11-08-2007, 01:50 PM
Not to bust your chops Loki, but that is EXACTLY what you do in Lightwave... Rather than painstakingly drawing and painting your image, you use someone else's program to calculate how an image shaped like your object would look with lighting like this.

While you provide the vision for the object (assuming you model it yourself), and the idea for the lighting, it is the computer that does literally trillions of calcuations to render that image.

This is EXACTLY how many 'oil and canvas' artists feel about CG artists. Its the same elitism only now we're lower on the chain.

Now we're starting to delve into the "is CG art at all?" question. Which begs the question "is photography art?" as well.

This is an argument for another thread. And no, it is not the same thing as what I'm doing in LW. 3D rendering is more like photography than anything. 3D modeling is most like sculpting. If I get some clay, sculpt it, light the scene and take a well-composed photo of it, I could call that art. If I took a bunch of pre made props, composed a scene, and shot a photo, that would still be art. Now, if I took a bunch of pre made props, shot them in a poorly lit, poorly composed scene, and called it the same thing as scenario 1 (sculpting a statue, lighting it, and shooting it), I imagine I would piss some people off.

I would go so far as to say that comparing 3D art to oil and canvas is like comparing oranges and apples. If you want to debate the finer points of oil painting versus digital painting in Painter or PS, feel free to start that thread......


Heck, a LOT of people (with really short memories) feel like that in movies. They rag on CG and scream for practical shooting because 'all CG looks fake.' 'No,' I tell them, 'all the CG you can SEE might look fake, but there is plenty of CG you just don't catch because it looks real. By definition, the only CG you recognize is the bad CG.'

The same could be said of Poser. Yes, it is easy for someone to slap a scene together that they could never model and post it on the web. Yes, it could be crap. Coal is more common than diamond, after all.

That's not the issue here. Its just as IMI said--it's not the tool, its the users. What if someone showed you a lump of coal, insisting that it was a diamond? "What?" they say, "It's composed of exactly the same elements, the exact same molecules!" That doesn't make coal or coal mines useless, that just makes that particular guy an IDIOT.


But, if that is the tool that helps someone achieve their goal, then it serves a purpose.

Remember that YOUR inability to find a use for a tool does not mean that the tool is useless.

Okay, now I am starting to get genuinely pissed off. In case you missed the all caps, bold face line I had a few posts back,

I do NOT think that Poser is useless! It has many uses, yes, even in professional, paid jobs!! Things such as previs, animatic, and in some cases architectual vis can benefit greatly from Poser. It is NOT the tool that I take issue with, it is the attitude I see from the users!

Next time, please read what I have to say before you try and argue it. I mean, sh!t, I don't personally have much use for Maya at the moment. Do I think that it's a crappy tool? No.

Lightwolf
11-08-2007, 01:53 PM
It's actually not Hitler we dredge up every thread is it?
Iain's Law states:

As a thread on the NewTek Discussion Forums grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving fanboys or Oddity approaches one.
Is that what you had in mind? ;)

Cheers,
Mike

calilifestyle
11-08-2007, 02:08 PM
Ahuh. So now anyone who feels that valid criticism is necessary for improvement is an Oddy copycat? Lame tactic.

Like I said, Oddity's philosophy was taken to the extreme, and on top of that he was an a**hole about it. I don't think anyone here would call someone's honest attempt at fur on a cat "like that of a dead cat with mange," even when said person wasn't touting his work as anything great. Or any of the other ridiculous stuff he said, personal attacks... et cetera.

No. but ok what ever makes you happy.. oddy would insisted that his point was the only one that counted. you copycats believe that your the one in the spotlight that matters. so go one be happy, enjoy your self . since your the only one that matters in the lightwave forum and criticism by any other out side you kingdom will be shot right.I any case im out this isnt about poser working with lightwave and i can tell ppl want this closed so . so just close its so off topic.

Verlon
11-08-2007, 02:44 PM
Lame comparison. It's like saying that a painter needs to chop his own wood to create a brush handle and use his own hair for bristles and finally paint with his own feces coloured by whatever berries he collected from the forest and ate that day.

That argument is old and it's still silly.

It's not about the tool, but about using premade content and passing it on as your own art or whatever. Why can't you people see that?

But it IS the same argument. The ony difference is now you are on the lower end of it... I know oil and canvas painters who feel this way about CG art (and photogrpahy, too).

To me, you take advantage of the tools available, but not everyone feels this way. I DO say the same thing to them... 'do you make your own brushes and paint?' And, they, of course, tell me how silly that argument is because now THEY are on the lower end of the same argument.

Do you paint every texture yourself? Or do you use other people's work? Ever use a procedural texture one one of YOUR pieces of art? Was it still yours?

If so, then where EXACTLY is the line? How do you measure it? Using a rust procedural on 1 nurnie is ok, but if you use it on the ship's hull, you're just posing? It's art. Art is subjective.

99.9% of stuff coming out of poser is crap.

99.9% coming out paints is crap (or in my case, and even 100%).

99.9% of images taken by camera are 'snapshots' at best (and I spent years developing photos for a living so I have seen them....)

99.9% of what I here on the radio is crap.

TV?

Wow, the whole world is full of crap.... only the 0.1% of the gems are really amazing, and my 0.1% doesn't always line up with yours... 'One man's trash is another man's treasure' as they say.

(and I realize you didn't say this Nev)

If you think the poser community has an attitude, what do you expect when you come across with this "well your work isn't real art like MINE" attitude yourself? You're practically nailing a chip onto their shoulder for them -- with a railroad spike.

kremesch73
11-08-2007, 02:51 PM
I saw a shower organizer hanging at the art gallery that was considered art.
I thought it was crap.

Verlon
11-08-2007, 02:58 PM
better yet....leave this thread and head down to your local orchestra and tell THOSE guys they aren't real artists becasue they didn't write Beethoven, they just play someone else's music.

Why a concert pianist is nothing but a glorified ipod at that point...

krimpr
11-08-2007, 03:19 PM
What I honestly can't understand is why people get so needlessly passionate about this. Seriously.... those here know the difference between Poser and origional character creations when they see it; nobody here would argue that a Pixar animation and a Poser animation are the same thing. So what? Those using Poser are, for the most part just having fun, and are simply hobbyists. If they think that they've created art with it using pre-purchased content, again, so what? You know the difference. I know the difference. If they don't know the difference then let them have their 15 minutes of fame.. it doesn't cost anyone anything. For many, it's an introductory programme along the likes of Bryce which introduces them to the world of 3D. For some it will remain their only experience, and for others it will intrigue them to learn how to model their own content, and to experiment with other software... Lightwave included. Aside from those who have known since they were young that "they always wanted to be an animator" most people would never have had a taste of CG were it not for Poser or Bryce.... not many curious individuals are likely to ante up to a seat of Maya to see if 3D is interesting to them as a hobby, but Poser or Bryce... well, at least it reveals the fundamentals, and provides an opportunity to do projects that they feel are worthwhile. If people who use it feel that they are getting something out of it, why the need to take it away from them? If they think it's art or it's creative, why the need to tell them that it's not? Again, you know the difference, and in my opinion I don't see why that's not enough. As for me, I'm glad that it's out there because it serves a genuine practical purpose. To each their own, live and let live and all that...

2BitSculptor
11-08-2007, 03:27 PM
I think it's neat that vampires can now be photographed with digital cameras. :D

loki74
11-08-2007, 03:30 PM
No. but ok what ever makes you happy.. oddy would insisted that his point was the only one that counted. you copycats believe that your the one in the spotlight that matters. so go one be happy, enjoy your self . since your the only one that matters in the lightwave forum and criticism by any other out side you kingdom will be shot right.I any case im out this isnt about poser working with lightwave and i can tell ppl want this closed so . so just close its so off topic.

I'm don't think "I'm the only one who matters." I've presented what I believe, and WHY I believe it. I'm completely open to the counter arguments.

Unfortunately, all I get back is the same, circular, strawman rhetoric. "Poser is useful, people may think of LW the same way we think of Poser, well look at (pick one: oil painting, music, photography, et cetera), they could just as well call us digital folk not real art, and don't forget, Poser has its use!" Rinse, repeat.

Its like, you make point A, I make counterpoint B plus concession C, and you just repeat point A in reply, while reasserting C, a point which I've already conceded. Who's the one enamored with his own opinion? I'm at least man enough to tackle all of your points.

I don't think that my opinion is the only one that matters. I just have yet to see YOU back YOURS up, or successfully debunk the reasoning by which I've arrived at MINE.


But it IS the same argument. The ony difference is now you are on the lower end of it... I know oil and canvas painters who feel this way about CG art (and photogrpahy, too).

Like I said, oranges and apples. Care to argue my take on the issue? ....


better yet....leave this thread and head down to your local orchestra and tell THOSE guys they aren't real artists becasue they didn't write Beethoven, they just play someone else's music.

Hey, if you can re-paint the Mona Lisa exactly like the original, kudos. Or if you can re-model/light/animate/render The Incredibles exactly the way they made it, hats off to you......

once again, oranges and apples.

Glendalough
11-08-2007, 03:42 PM
...It's like saying that a painter needs to chop his own wood to create a brush handle and use his own hair for bristles and finally paint with his own feces coloured by whatever berries he collected from the forest and ate that day....

Hey this is the Damien Hirst recipe!

Steamthrower
11-08-2007, 04:11 PM
Let's not get into art again! I typed my fingers off last time we got onto that subject.

animotion
11-08-2007, 04:40 PM
OK,OK Poser is great, sock puppets are great, shadow puppets are great, cel animation is great. Who really gives a dang. If you like poser so be it, its your choice. If not then thats cool too.

All we are talking about here is your personal preference and perception of your chosen package. all jokes aside, Lets get on with constructive conversation and drop the subject.

See Ya. :)

Animotion

jin choung
11-08-2007, 07:50 PM
If you think the poser community has an attitude, what do you expect when you come across with this "well your work isn't real art like MINE" attitude yourself? You're practically nailing a chip onto their shoulder for them -- with a railroad spike.

what does this have to do with anything?

who cares?

jin

jin choung
11-08-2007, 08:57 PM
If so, then where EXACTLY is the line? How do you measure it? Using a rust procedural on 1 nurnie is ok, but if you use it on the ship's hull, you're just posing?

delightful.

so in this view then, everything is equally good(bad) and there is no distinction or differentiation possible?

that.... is your point?

lol.

yes, i'm sure that's exactly how the people watching your reel and evaluating you for a job look at it. that's how ilm and pixar think of it too.... how could we judge? where would we draw the line?

"how could we POSSIBLY draw a line? it's a LINE! how can you draw a line?! IMPOSSIBLE!"

pffft.

WHERE YOU DRAW THE LINE SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR EYE AND SENSIBILITY.

draw it low enough and you have a departure from reality and people rolling their eyes behind your back.

draw your lines (or fail to do so) at your peril.

just know that what you celebrate can undermine your credibility (as i've said).

jin

Mr Rid
11-08-2007, 09:15 PM
Much of the Poser bashing and 'what is art' was covered in the Battle over Art thread.

As we all should know, it is the artist, not the tool. Myself and others have demonstarted things accomplished in LW where some elitists of other apps were certain could not be done in a toy like LW. Statements that all results from Poser look like crap or always look like Poser are just from a limited perspective. Yes, Poser and Daz make 3D accessible to a greater pool of novices and so there is a lot more gunk just like YouTube allows anyone to post themselves farting into their webcam for personal expression. But there is also quiet genius on YouTube that would not have otherwise found exposure or audience.

Ive seen beautiful and highly personal creative expressions where Poser was utilized. Ive used Poser and Daz models for final feature film work as well as for previz. And Ive seen models generated using Poser and Daz to rival models created from scratch in other apps. I find Daz incredibly useful for a free app, and it had subsurface scattering, occlusion, and collada support before LW. And I only wish LW had some of the animation tools- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AZRYJC9RV8

It is all up to the individual artist. Subjectively 'crap' or not, Ive seen way more storytelling, character art, and fun in Poser related galleries than in the Newtek galleries which tend to be more technical and austere. I see a correlation to the nature of the app.

Digital Hermit
11-08-2007, 09:52 PM
I started this thread... and you all are welcome! :tongue:

Got news for ya... EVERYONE in the whole world is an "artist" ... but not all are good enough to have their work recognized and, in addition, be able to make a living at its doing. Moreover, not all these good artists are sculptors...

I see 3D modeling as “one” of the many components of 3D and not the litmus test to prove one is a CG artist.

Every respectable artist knows of Picasso and Andy Warhol… and also knows about these artistic methods, i.e. "found art objects" or collaging.

From those two artists and many others, one realizes that any point is moot about what can or cannot be useful as art. In fact, the artist takes these new "materials” and creates something unique with it...

...even utilizing something not created directly by the artist and have it serve his or her own artistic purpose. :D

Regards,

Mr Rid
11-08-2007, 10:22 PM
[U]
Every respectable artist knows of Picasso and Andy Warhol…
From those two artists and many others, one realizes that any point is moot about what can or cannot be useful as art. In fact, the artist takes these new "materials” and creates something unique with it...

...even utilizing something not created directly by the artist and have it serve his or her own artistic purpose. :D

Regards,

Correct.

There is no objective definition for 'art', just as there is no definition for what is 'funny,' 'scary,' 'good,' 'crap'... it all just boils down to what you subjectively 'like' or 'dont like.' Poser as a creative tool has an inherent potential for being utilized for personal expression or technical skill that may resonate emotionally for a siginificant percentage of viewers, novice and professional alike.

Even the most primitive shapes, auto-created with a CG tool can be used for complex and evocative expression. http://www.box.net/shared/static/3a2hl8q235.mov You wouldnt complain about how the animator here 'obviously just used the Ball and Box tool to model everything, so it's worthless crap.'

rajdarge
11-08-2007, 10:30 PM
art is not art, unless someone else thinks its good. Until then its self-indulgence

I use poser all the time. I don't own a copy of lightwave, but I do own imagine and have a fully functional but unused video toaster. My main software is 3ds Max and I cant wait for poser Pro. but it might be a tad overpriced. So there are my biases declared. Here is some food for thought for those people who look down on poser users as if somehow they are sub-human:

Most 3d and CGI people are skilled craftsmen, not artists. It aint the 3d Artists that get top billing in a pixar film, its the voices and the Director who are the real artists. The rest of you are the schlocks in the the darkened closets you call studios.

so don't kid yourself, much of what "real" 3d artists post looks like like amateur kiddy play. I model my own things, and I am learning how to rig characters. But It will be many years before I have the skills of the 3d craftsmen at DAZ. But I have to be given equal time, which I don't have by the way.

So if you real artists out there question the purity of poser art, you better break out the paint brush and easel because they are the only artists that the establishment really recognize. All of the rest of us are just pretenders.
Raj

jin choung
11-08-2007, 10:46 PM
There is no objective definition for 'art'.

how many times do i have to quote myself:

"art - the interpretation of reality by means of a medium."

lots of things are art.

and most art is [email protected]#$. that's not at all a contradictory notion.



Poser as a creative tool has an inherent potential for being utilized for personal expression or technical skill that may resonate emotionally for a siginificant percentage of viewers, novice and professional alike.


don't confuse the issue because there are enough confused people here as it is.

if you are not bragging about the stock object, fine.

as i said, if you are an animator and you have stock objects in your scene, it does not diminish your accomplishment.

if you are a MODELER - IT DOES.

and if you are making a painting or somesuch where the focus of attention is something you did not make... what then?

as i said, it is an issue of authorship.

if the use of poser objects is incidental or tangential to whatever you claim as your accomplishment, then it has a lesser diminution effect.

if the stock object is central to your claim of accomplishment, it is highly problematic.

-----------------------------------------------

come on people, this isn't rocket surgery.

STOCK OBJECTS.

cut and dried.

remember old episodes of GI JOE or TRANSFORMERS or ROBOTECH or BATTLESTAR GALACTICA?

they were able to tell stories with stock footage replayed over and over from one episode to the next. you can tell your story with stock objects. no one is contesting that.

but the result is NO LESS CHEESY, even if the story is good.

jin

rajdarge
11-08-2007, 11:08 PM
you could apply your argument equally well to photography. For a long time that was not considered art. And why?
Well because the artists merely captures an image without any skill. this was applied to photography for so long. And there are many genius photographers out there..

So don't diminish your argument by calling most art, [email protected]#$ art, Just who are you to determine this. Are you regarded by your community as effete? Are you a denizen of the art world? Is your skill so magical that it is obvious to even the uninitiated?

having and using poser is not a preclusion to producing art. Depends on what you do with it. Do you think Michelangelo would not have reveled in a tool such as poser. He did use a very basic form of grid viewer to do sketches that he then transposed (with the help of student) to the roof of the chapel in enlarged format. He did not work from memory he worked from sketch that was made in a studio with a nude male model and some candles or sunlight. So is what he did art? Or just the equivalent of Paint shop pro tube art?

True there is more chance of producing art if you do model your own things etc. But many of us are kidding ourselves if they believe that any but our friends actually think what we do is art.

To model and rig a perfect humanoid model is still only that. It looks great, in that Da Vinci pose. But thats it. To give it life, you need to give it movement.
Raj

jin choung
11-08-2007, 11:15 PM
you don't understand the argument if you think that it can be applied to nullify photography.

please, at least get a grip on the subject before you try to counter ok?

who am i?

who am i indeed....

who am i that anyone should be offended by what i say.

IGNORE ME if you will.

but i speak my mind. you got a problem with that... then you have a problem with that. nothin' to me.

jin

loki74
11-08-2007, 11:18 PM
Correct.

There is no objective definition for 'art', just as there is no definition for what is 'funny,' 'scary,' 'good,' 'crap'... it all just boils down to what you subjectively 'like' or 'dont like.' Poser as a creative tool has an inherent potential for being utilized for personal expression or technical skill that may resonate emotionally for a siginificant percentage of viewers, novice and professional alike.

Even the most primitive shapes, auto-created with a CG tool can be used for complex and evocative expression. http://www.box.net/shared/static/3a2hl8q235.mov You wouldnt complain about how the animator here 'obviously just used the Ball and Box tool to model everything, so it's worthless crap.'

You are correct.

But once again, it goes back to the users. If I did complain about how the animator obviously just used a ball and box, my judgement of the artist would probably hinge a lot on how he responded.

It also depends on what he's toting the work as. If he showcased this as teh best modeling evar, then I would have to disagree, despite whatever great talent he might have as an animator, or the quality/creativity of the piece itself...

jin choung
11-08-2007, 11:20 PM
also (and i repeat this point because evidently people just can't pay attention) - who am i?

who are YOU to say then that a movie stinks? how DARE YOU? have you ever made a movie? do you know how hard it is?

HOW DARE YOU NOT LAUGH AT EVERY FART JOKE?!

HOW DARE YOU?!

jin

Digital Hermit
11-08-2007, 11:25 PM
jin we know you are a closet Poser lover ... its ok to come out. ;)

loki74
11-08-2007, 11:28 PM
"art - the interpretation of reality by means of a medium."

I agree with a fair amount of the things you've said here, but this can't be accurate...

There's a lot of art that has nothing whatsoever to do with reality... "automatic drawings" come to mind.

And what about the fantasy genre? That's pretty much the expression of what isn't real, presented as if it were reality... you might call the things that fantasy is derived from "reality," but I would call it more of a fabrication than an interpretation.

Art, in my opinion, cannot be defined. As a term it has become so broad in usage that it is more or less arbitrary. How would you define the attribute of being "cool?" How does that differ from being "hip?" hmm... kind of hard. It's all arbitrary... all a matter of semantics.

manholoz
11-08-2007, 11:29 PM
Those with skills enough to make characters and thingies should sell them as Poser props to those that do not and make a buck. I do, and I don't consider myself a 3d guru, but still, good enough for people to buy Poser stuff I do.

Does Poser make art?

Depends.

Does Poser have a place in the world?

It does.

Does Lightwave benefit from more integration with Poser?

It does.

Did I drink to much coffee?

Certainly.

jin choung
11-08-2007, 11:30 PM
There's a lot of art that has nothing whatsoever to do with reality... "automatic drawings" come to mind.

actually, the definition is surprisingly robust and deep, if i do say so myself.

ANYTHING that a humanbeingperson can possibly do is derived from reality or nature if you will.

you have no other context. you are simply and completely immersed. NOTHING comes ex-nihilo from outside of that context and the MIND CANNOT IMAGINE ANYTHING THAT IS NOT OF IT in one way or another - important point.

so no matter how abstract or alien a piece tries to be, it nonetheless ends up being an interpretation of reality.

so all subject matter is by definition reality and what is done specifically is your interpretation.

jin

jin choung
11-08-2007, 11:38 PM
and to amplify on the point about all things deriving from reality and your point loki about the fantasy genre, a lot is made about the fact that in EVERY CULTURE OF THE WORLD, there is the myth of the dragon.

hit me when i was in high school.

y'know why?

dinosaur fossils. whether it was hippocrates or an early christian monk or a chinese monk, they all found these GIGANTIC FING JAWS in the ground....

viola... dragons.

not using this as a definitive argument.... just an entertaining related note.

jin

manholoz
11-08-2007, 11:54 PM
On the Jin-inspired entertainment note,

If there was ANYTHING absolutely new that nobody ever had thought about and had never existed and was completely new and etc etc and a guy sketched/painted/sculpted/etc it, the instance he thought about it, it became part of his consciousness and existence. In fact, it became part of reality before that, because of the time lag caused by the information travelling between neurons, as it is not instantaneous, so he had already thought about the idea before he was aware he had thought about it :)

(OK that was stretching it a bit too far)

BTW, my personal theory is that all those huge aurocs, snakes, sirens, etc that caused havoc to sailors was a face-saving answer preferred to "duh, the guy at the top of the mast fell asleep and we hit a reef" sort of thing. Compare that to "my ship was eaten by a huge beasty with terrible fangs" ;)

loki74
11-09-2007, 12:38 AM
so no matter how abstract or alien a piece tries to be, it nonetheless ends up being an interpretation of reality.

incorrect. regardless of whether or not the piece was influenced by reality, it may or may not be an interpretation per se. I'm writing a screenplay right now which was influenced heavily by many things, real and otherwise, but what I am writing is by no means an interpretation of these things. This goes toward the intention of the artist, which is arbitrary and subjective.

Furthermore, the point is quite irrelevant. As long as we are discussing what the definition of the word "art" is, there is no true answer. Like I said, the usage of the word has become so widespread and arbitrarily defined that it cannot be delimited by a single person.

jin choung
11-09-2007, 12:51 AM
incorrect. regardless of whether or not the piece was influenced by reality, it may or may not be an interpretation per se.

i disagree completely.

EVERYTHING that a person can possibly think of is "INFECTED" by reality.

1. (CONTENT) everything a person says is ABOUT reality.

even if it is some barely comprehensible stream-of-consciousness kind of work, even if ultimately it is reducible to the contents of ones own thoughts musings or madness, that commentary would be about reality because his VERY MIND is a subset of reality.

2. (INTERPRETATION) everything a person says is an INTERPRETATION.

human beings have NO DIRECT ACCESS TO REALITY WHATSOEVER. everything you hear, see, smell, is INTERPRETED by your nervous system and sense organs and every thought you have is a product of your mind.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

the subject matter is always reality. every expression is an interpretation.

both things are BY DEFINITION. there is no other option.

encode that into a medium....

viola: ART.



As long as we are discussing what the definition of the word "art" is, there is no true answer.

you can say that. but i disagree. again, i think my definition of art is fairly robust and complete.

so a poser image is art. it's [email protected]# but it's art.

porky's revenge is art. it's [email protected]#$ (porky's the original was much better) but it's art.

whether something is good or bad art does nothing to dilute the identifiability of art.

jin

robpowers3d
11-09-2007, 02:10 AM
Jin,

I am amazed at the amount of free time you have to post so often. It's truly astounding!:D

Sande
11-09-2007, 02:39 AM
don't confuse the issue because there are enough confused people here as it is.
...
as i said, it is an issue of authorship.
...
come on people, this isn't rocket surgery.
STOCK OBJECTS.
cut and dried.

Don't confuse the issue? I'm sorry, but you seem a bit confused yourself about your point and the issue.


poser is [email protected]#. and everything made with poser looks like it was made with poser. aka ie eg [email protected]#$. it has that certain aura of [email protected]#$ about it.
Here you begin with your civilized view about Poser and it's capabilities. The issue seemed to be that Poser as a program is "[email protected]#$" and "everything made with poser looks like it was made with poser" and that the results always looked like "[email protected]#$."

poser is [email protected]#$. end of story.
everything made with it and nothing but it looks like [email protected]#$. end of story.
worse, everything made with it LOOKS LIKE IT WAS MADE WITH IT(!!!)
Unfortunately, the story didn't end here. You had this view for a while and you repeatedly told us how you can notice "[email protected]#$" when you see it and how everyone else should too. Your issue was still that Poser is "[email protected]#$", everything made with Poser looks like "[email protected]#$", identifiable [email protected]#$ even. Nice, it seemed you had some consistency...

ACTUALLY - LOOK AT IT THIS WAY:
what if there was a product that produced ABSOLUTELY PERFECT, BEAUTIFUL, PHOTOREAL people with little or no intervention from the user.
i'm not even going to bother making my point.
...but not for long, then you started changing your concerns and began to "confuse the issue."

i am pretty darn specific. the primary issue is almost everything made with poser is immediately IDENTIFIABLE AS SUCH. such a fingerprint is NOT GOOD.
...
another issue is the issue of AUTHORSHIP... if someone just uses poser to make money, that's one thing... but if they're trying to play themselves off as an artist, then their artistry is diluted by the presence (more or less depending) on SOMEONE ELSE'S work.
Hmmh, ok, so here a bit later you were "pretty darn specific" and the issue wasn't exactly that everything done with Poser looks like "[email protected]#$" anymore or that the Poser is "[email protected]#$", the real issue seemed to be that you can tell if something is made with Poser... Authorship was just a secondary issue, if even that, at this point.

again, poser is almost a footnote at this point, the issue is about STOCK OBJECTS
Sigh, so we are moving on again - now let's forget that you can tell what is made with Poser, that is not a primary issue anymore - the real issue is now about stock objects. Poser is just a footnote...

Well, it seems we can now forget those evil stock objects too and move to discussion of art and your definition of it - without confusing the issue of course...
By the way, the real issue here was about e-frontier's LW-support regarding Poser - in case you forgot that...

loki74
11-09-2007, 03:32 AM
human beings have NO DIRECT ACCESS TO REALITY WHATSOEVER. everything you hear, see, smell, is INTERPRETED by your nervous system and sense organs and every thought you have is a product of your mind.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

the subject matter is always reality. every expression is an interpretation.

both things are BY DEFINITION. there is no other option.

encode that into a medium....

viola: ART.


Wait wait wait. So now, the interpretation happens between reality and my mind? I thought you were saying it happens between my mind and my artistic medium...

And the actions of expressing and interpreting are most definitely NOT the same...if anything, they are opposites.

I would say that a key aspect of art is that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Just because every detail in my piece of art is invariably and inevitably influenced by some piece of reality I have experienced, does not mean that my art intends to somehow convey that particular piece of reality.

Frankly, the issue of "what is reality" with regard to the human mind is so gray, I really find it ridiculous that you are trying to use it to clarify the also cloudy question of "what is art." Let's say that "reality" encompasses all human thought--then OF COURSE all art is derived from something that is real and exists.

But then, your statement really has very little utility. It's more or less like answering a math problem, "x=x." If reality is all-encompassing, it is natural that all art is derived from reality. Thus, your definition of art really only matters at all if it can be shown that something is not a part of reality AND does not derive from or extend something that is a part of reality.

Can you find me such a thing?

parm
11-09-2007, 04:19 AM
"how could we POSSIBLY draw a line? it's a LINE! how can you draw a line?! IMPOSSIBLE!"jin

Where the line gets drawn is a variable. You should be able to place what you're looking at. Within a context and assess it accordingly.

As krimpr states, (I think, for the most part rightly), in post 166. Most people are using Poser for their own amusement, as hobbyists.

A lot of people use Lightwave the same way. So. If this type of consumer, accounts for a high enough proportion of sales. It stands to reason. that it is of concern When their needs are not met.

StereoMike
11-09-2007, 06:55 AM
Jin has too much time. And prolly too much coffee or broccoli. Or maybe both. If he would take the broccoli, dip it into the coffee and throw it a canvas, now that would be something.
Question: Would he be the artist or me? Cause I had the idea and he's just the tool?

mike

kremesch73
11-09-2007, 10:03 AM
Jin has too much time. And prolly too much coffee or broccoli. Or maybe both. If he would take the broccoli, dip it into the coffee and throw it a canvas, now that would be something.
Question: Would he be the artist or me? Cause I had the idea and he's just the tool?

mike

I'm sure that's already been done. It's probably hanging on a wall in an art gallery somewhere.

robpowers3d
11-09-2007, 11:09 AM
Smart people manage their time well and can do both work and forum posting, mind their family and squeeze in some leisurely pleasures :)

Next.
hmmm....I'm not sure that has anything to do with being smart.

Iain
11-09-2007, 01:56 PM
Ooooohh meeeow..........

I can't wait for the next tit for tat instalment.





yaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnn.

Mr Rid
11-09-2007, 03:12 PM
lots of things are art.

and most art is [email protected]#$. that's not at all a contradictory notion.

Just a subjective one.




don't confuse the issue ...
as i said, if you are an animator and you have stock objects in your scene, it does not diminish your accomplishment.

Am just considering your sweeping statement about how "poser is [email protected]#. and everything made with poser looks like it was made with poser. aka ie eg [email protected]#$. it has that certain aura of [email protected]#$ about it."

And now you say the use of stock objects does not diminish your accomplishment. This seems a contradictory notion.

The opinion of 'everything Poser touches is [email protected]#$' is just a limited personal opinion. It is obviously not comprehensive truth. And NO you can not always distinguish a Poser model. I see that anti-Poser attitues have never seen some of the nice work being done with it and perhaps have never used the program or do not realize the difference between what the program does for you and what the artist does. Its similar to how people who generalize about how CG art is not respectable because 'the computer is doing it all for you.' This is true to a degree when compared to traditional artforms. Just as Poser is doing all the modeling for you, to a degree. But CG artists know there is a distinction that has to be understood about their role. I am also reminded of similar attitudes toward LW in feature production- "LW's a toy." "Everything rendered in LW looks like plastic." "Is not for character animation." But there are obvious exceptions out there because of artists pushing the software.

Most of the Poser renders I see around are just poorly composed, lit and rendered. There is nothing inadequate with the highly detailed models themselves and 4k, photoreal texture maps. Every point that Ive heard someone nitpick about Poser modes is something that can be easily if an artist were inclined. The identifiying Poser traits you ocmmonly see are not restrictions to Poser, but rather the artist failing to personalize it. Many skilled artists have done very cool pieces utilizing Poser/Daz models. And I have never seen any of them trying to claim more than their due of credit. How could they on a Poser/Daz gallery? Ive seen artists sculpt on a base Poser model with humbling skill, or convey interesting ideas or storys which I have seen none of on the LW gallery.

There is just nothing at all inherently wrong with using Poser models as some suggest. All CG apps hand you presets, preset tools and automated functions. It is always up to the artist to choose and modify his tools in order to communicate his ideas effectively.

bobakabob
11-09-2007, 03:35 PM
All CG is just smoke and mirrors. There is good art and bad art. That is all.

Digital Hermit
11-09-2007, 04:02 PM
..."poser is [email protected]#. and everything made with poser looks like it was made with poser. aka ie eg [email protected]#$..."


Only a Sith deals in absolutes! :yoda:

Mr Rid
11-09-2007, 04:24 PM
There is good art and bad art. That is all.

There is only what you like or dont like in art.

jin choung
11-09-2007, 05:41 PM
And now you say the use of stock objects does not diminish your accomplishment. This seems a contradictory notion.

read the source post more carefully to find the operative word you are missing...

see people, THIS is why i use caps.

jin

cresshead
11-09-2007, 05:50 PM
well i like poser and bryce...they got me into 3d...especially bryce...i think having them in the market helps drive the competition to make better, faster more capable apps..vue certainly got much better and may not have been so without bryce around...poser forfills a gap in the market for 'stock humans' that can be animated with motion capture files with a simple click of the mouse...try that in lightwave 5,6,7,8,9....


we ARE hoping that character animatiion get better in lw9+...and in using motion capture and walk generators and path driven walk cycles....all of which are nowhere in lightwave but available in 3dsmax and poser...if love or hate them...they HAVE THE FEATURES....

and with more and more motion capture being used in games, tv and feature films...that;s something that lightwave is currently woeful at on it's own.

sword1
11-09-2007, 06:00 PM
After all the responses I have read… we definitely need new blood. :neener:


Definitely. You do. And badly.

Speaking as someone whose introduction to 3D came via spotting a copy of Poser 2 sitting on the shelf of my local CompUSA several years ago.......traveling through Vue.......and from thence finding my way to a program called Lightwave......

Any lowly Poser user who is at the stage of thinking about 'graduating' to some highend app, coming in here and looking up items concerning the topic of "Poser", or of "Poser and Lightwave" -- if THIS thread were to be that hypothetical Poser user's introduction to LW -- then that lowly, despised, worth-dirt Poser user will buy Cinema 4D. So-long Lightwave.

With the heavy-duty competition for new users that's the rule of the 3D marketplace these days: I would think that every potential new user would count: and that they would be welcomed here. I would think. Even if their 3D background came from an awful application called Poser.

You know -- I've seen Lightwave come in for some vicious forum kicking around & pounding all of its own.

No wonder y'all are rapidly losing out to Modo. Among other reasons: the folks over there are totally cool with Poser, and they are totally cool with Poser users. Ask a Poser-related question in those forums, and you'll be treated with at least a modicum of respect. Ask such a question over here, and it looks like you'll end up being flamed........no, thanks. I have better things to do with my time.

As a newcomer to Lightwave, I wish that this wasn't my introductory post over here: but the thing is what it is. And they say that 1st impressions count for a lot.

:thumbsdow

BTW - I say these things as someone who likes Lightwave, and who intends to stick with the program. For now. Lightwave is a 3D tool, and Poser is a 3D tool. It's not a Great Evil designed to ruin your day. If anyone doesn't like Poser -- then don't use it. As for slamming all Poser users as a group -- well, we all need someone else that we can look down on. That's why 3DS Max users slam us -- and that's why Maya users slam the 3DS Max users in their turn.

We've got a 3D pecking order to follow and to stick to, don't 'cha know?

And *I'm* superior to you, because I use a different program.

All of this is true because it is a fact.

Please -- permit me to welcome myself to the Newtek forums. :D

Steamthrower
11-09-2007, 06:10 PM
And *I'm* superior to you, because I use a different program.

All of this is true because it is a fact.

Naw, I'm superior to you because I have a cool cellphone. :D

Sorry for the first impression, it is pretty bad isn't it? Newtek should close these threads. Quick.

bobakabob
11-09-2007, 06:16 PM
Welcome, Sword1 and well said!

Agree totally with your point that users of other software shouldn't be turned off because of these silly threads. Thankfully the friendly helpful discussions vastly outnumber this nonsense.

You made a good choice: Lightwave is a very artist friendly app and works well with other programs. Look forward to seeing your work.

krimpr
11-09-2007, 06:17 PM
Welcome sword1. You picked a bad thread to say hello I think. But welcome nevertheless. :)

sword1
11-09-2007, 06:24 PM
Sorry for the first impression, it is pretty bad isn't it? Newtek should close these threads. Quick.


Probably good advice.

And, oh yeah -- after reading this, it's no wonder that the Lightwave forum over at Renderosity is poorly attended -- while the Cinema 4D and Max forums over there are quite lively.

Some over here seem to be more interested in advancing personal agendas than they are in supporting the future of an application called Lightwave -- by winning over new users.

Newbies are the life's blood of any application. Without the newbies: the application will eventually die.

The Poser world is a FANTASTIC potential source of newbies for Lightwave -- if only you mature *snort* types over here don't scare the children away. The 'children' who buy applications -- and who ultimately determine the future success or failure of that application.

sword1
11-09-2007, 06:27 PM
Thanks for the welcome, guys! :thumbsup:

IMI
11-09-2007, 07:04 PM
Well, I'll offer you a "welcome", too. :)
IMVHO, Poser wouldn't have such a bad rep in the 3D world if it weren't for the fact that the vast majority of the stuff churned out is little more than a bunch of store-bought elements tossed together. People buy the figures, the morph packs, the backdrops and props - even entire scenes, the light sets, the camera sets... even pose sets. Load it all up, twist a dial or two, rotate the camera and, VOILA! Instant art!
Rush to Renderosity, browse to the galleries, hit the upload button, then sit back and wait for fawning comments... then rush to the whine-'n'-moan forum and complain that someone left a bad comment, and can you please remove it...

You know. I think that's the biggest problem alot of the anti-Poser people have had over the years. It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't so prevalent. I'll be the first to agree that good artwork is good artwork, regardless of how it got that way, and there most definitely IS good Poser artwork out there.
But there's only so many times you can see the same figures in the same clothes in the same settings before you begin to decide there's something wrong there.

LW_Will
11-09-2007, 08:46 PM
IMI... everyone... you are right. Totally correct. Poser makes sh*t, that is obvious...

but, you know what, Microsoft Word makes **** as well... and Photoshop, and you know what I learned, there are alot of people making porn with Final Cut.

Guys, the output shouldn't and usually doesn't indicate the quality of the software. Its a computer, what ever you put in doesn't indicate what you are going to get out of it.

And remember some short sighted people think that you can only do TV with Lightwave...

IMI
11-09-2007, 08:49 PM
IMI... everyone... you are right. Totally correct. Poser makes sh*t, that is obvious...



Whoah, hold on there. I haven't objected to Poser in this thread. I've said at least a couple times that it's not the program, and I said at least once specifically that I would use it if I had a need to.

meathead
11-09-2007, 09:07 PM
...Any lowly Poser user who is at the stage of thinking about 'graduating' to some highend app, coming in here and looking up items concerning the topic of "Poser", or of "Poser and Lightwave" -- if THIS thread were to be that hypothetical Poser user's introduction to LW -- then that lowly, despised, worth-dirt Poser user will buy Cinema 4D. So-long Lightwave.


I hope the potential LWers out there,who may be reading this, would not let their opinion be swayed by a few forum freaks.
This forum, like every online forum in the world has it's share of online vultures, circling, waiting to attack, rendering opinions that should never be considered as feelings or opinions of the whole, definetely not of Newtek. Forum member "a" says LW has inferior "a" features...who gives a sh*t? One persons opinion, figure it out yourself.


..No wonder y'all are rapidly losing out to Modo. Among other reasons: the folks over there are totally cool with Poser, and they are totally cool with Poser users. ....

Now YOU Are rendering rediculous opinions. Just as insane as the Poser haters. How do you know how Newtek feels about Poser? Losing out how?
Something tells me they could care less, because they have better things to do (like 9.3) than worry about some rediculous thread about some other 3d app, which doesn't even compete.

Digital Hermit
11-09-2007, 09:18 PM
Probably good advice.

And, oh yeah -- after reading this, it's no wonder that the Lightwave forum over at Renderosity is poorly attended -- while the Cinema 4D and Max forums over there are quite lively.

Some over here seem to be more interested in advancing personal agendas than they are in supporting the future of an application called Lightwave -- by winning over new users.

Newbies are the life's blood of any application. Without the newbies: the application will eventually die.

The Poser world is a FANTASTIC potential source of newbies for Lightwave -- if only you mature *snort* types over here don't scare the children away. The 'children' who buy applications -- and who ultimately determine the future success or failure of that application.

Agreed...

And welcome!

What is interesting to me is that some of the detractors who posted on this thread are the same that said oddity - a talented guy with horrible social skills, who got banned - drove people away from LW in droves. (and I somewhat agree to that statement.) The irony, to me, is those same people maybe ignorantly doing the same, now.

I want to state that the majority of the people here are still :heart: "warm hearted" :heart: about helping guys get into Lightwave no matter what app they come from. But I have felt a chill lately. (Animation Master was my first, a long time ago)

Regards,

Stooch
11-09-2007, 10:54 PM
Well, I am off to analyze all of the forums for 3D applications and then pick my new 3D software based entirely on how polite the users of that program are in their forums. Because that is such a smart and sensible thing to do! You know what, i think its time to get me some poser!

you just caught your nutts on the edge of a table upon your grand entrance... but welcome to the community.

sword1
11-09-2007, 11:12 PM
Well, I am off to analyze all of the forums for 3D applications and then pick my new 3D software based entirely on how polite the users of that program are in their forums. Because that is such a smart and sensible thing to do! You know what, i think its time to get me some poser!


Good idea! Poser is healthy! It causes little, ignorant 3D noobs to grow up into tall, strong Lightwave users!

BTW - that's a part of what it's all about. Many's the time when I've heard a given software praised -- or panned -- based upon the nature of its supporting community. As well as the nature of the company that actually makes the software.

So, yes: people make their software choices -- at least in part -- upon such a basis. As silly of an idea as that might seem to some.




you just caught your nutts on the edge of a table upon your grand entrance... but welcome to the community.

Moi......? Nah.....I might be a relative newcomer to LW, but by no means am I a forum newbie. The standard point and counterpoint dance applies here as it does elsewhere --

And thanks for the welcome. :cool:

loki74
11-09-2007, 11:15 PM
Any lowly Poser user who is at the stage of thinking about 'graduating' to some highend app, coming in here and looking up items concerning the topic of "Poser", or of "Poser and Lightwave" -- if THIS thread were to be that hypothetical Poser user's introduction to LW -- then that lowly, despised, worth-dirt Poser user will buy Cinema 4D. So-long Lightwave.

(re) Enter straw man, stage left.

Any poser user who ever considers moving to a highend app is probably realizing how limiting poser is to their creativity. They realize the limits of the tool as well as the limits of their work, and they realize they can broaden their skill set and free their creativity a little more by "moving up."

They do NOT tout their stuff as great art; nor do they become incredibly irritable and defensive in the face of criticism--they welcome it and use it to the effect of their betterment.

This is not the type of person I take issue with....


With the heavy-duty competition for new users that's the rule of the 3D marketplace these days: I would think that every potential new user would count: and that they would be welcomed here. I would think. Even if their 3D background came from an awful application called Poser.

Haven't we already established this about fifty million times? Sh!t, I'm getting tired of hitting the bold button here.


You know -- I've seen Lightwave come in for some vicious forum kicking around & pounding all of its own.

And I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was equally warranted. Can you say "hub?" "CA tools?" etc?


As a newcomer to Lightwave, I wish that this wasn't my introductory post over here: but the thing is what it is. And they say that 1st impressions count for a lot.

True. But I wonder why you bring this fact up...? what is its relevance to the current discussion? hmm.


Lightwave is a 3D tool, and Poser is a 3D tool. It's not a Great Evil designed to ruin your day. If anyone doesn't like Poser -- then don't use it.

It's much easier to argue against an extreme position, isn't it? So you hyperbolize the argument against Poser... that's called a strawman. Yours is especially transparent. I mean, come on, "great evil designed to ruin your day?" Who said that? who even remotely implied it?


As for slamming all Poser users as a group -- well, we all need someone else that we can look down on. That's why 3DS Max users slam us -- and that's why Maya users slam the 3DS Max users in their turn.

We've got a 3D pecking order to follow and to stick to, don't 'cha know?

And *I'm* superior to you, because I use a different program.

All of this is true because it is a fact.

Bullsh!t. I, personally, am not slamming the all Poser users as a group. I'm just slamming the ones who fancy themselves "3D artistes" and that their art is just oh so great. Show me a LW user who thinks the same way, and I'll show you someone I could b1tch about JUST as much.

LW's strongsuit is not CA. Poser's strongsuit is pretty much just animatic/previs. It's also, as has been mentioned, an effective introduction into 3D.

"I am superior to YOU b/c I use a diff app?" come on, nobody said that. You just needed a convenient, easy point to counter, so you made one up.

So just stop hyperbolizing the opposing points, and try actually engaging in a real discussion.

Digital Hermit
11-09-2007, 11:29 PM
I want to add...

Originally, I posted this NOT to “tout” how great poser is, because it is not.

I was upset because of their decision, to delay the LW plug-in. As of now, those other apps will be getting first dibbs on that "hobbiest/newly budding 3D professional" and getting their MONEY!

Put it perspective... Out of all the apps, which would be more affordable for the “budding 3D poser artist” who wants to consider taking his "Poser Art" to a new level? Moreover, having the illusion he or she will rub shoulders with the 3D “Elite”.

Yep, LW… but now, since LW is on the back burner, this hobbyist/new-pro will probably be looking at the basic version C4D, I am assuming. In addition, some there have seen what 3DSM can do, so, some will go with that program. Maya – heh – I do not think so. Nevertheless, its not important what app they buy, it is the fact that they are buying you know, spending denaro!

I was looking at this as an opportunity for LW to get some substantial cash-flow from a very healthy market. I know that after these poser guys buy a pro app that some will stick with it and be thier prefered app or some may give up on it… either way, they would have PAID Newtek, and have not PAID Maxon or Autodesk.

This is a market that would be shoving money towards Newtek… MONEY that would fund Newtek for better improvements and benefit us as well … god its sooo obvious…

"The LW Elitists would ride on the backs of the Poser Bourgeois!” :dance: Eating caviar, drinking wine and throwing orgies - heh - not to mention seeing Newtek add better CA tools, Dynamics and Particle systems etc... because they now have the cash to make it happen faster!

“We” are static customers… we own the product… but as of now, Newtek is NOT getting money from us … that only happens when we purchase upgrades. We purchase upgrades if we think the software has a benefit, is keeping up with the industry, and will make us money. If it does not… then we go to an app that will.

The opportunities for the “hobbyists/budding pro's” new-money going to Newtek would be lost and would now go to fund the “other guys" app.

So, with that, yes… I really want LW to succeed… forgive my passion.



Secondly, I was glad that they were/are making the plug-in -- because I would be getting some relevantly cheap 3D content. :D

Regards,

sword1
11-09-2007, 11:41 PM
I hope the potential LWers out there,who may be reading this, would not let their opinion be swayed by a few forum freaks.
This forum, like every online forum in the world has it's share of online vultures, circling, waiting to attack, rendering opinions that should never be considered as feelings or opinions of the whole, definetely not of Newtek. Forum member "a" says LW has inferior "a" features...who gives a sh*t? One persons opinion, figure it out yourself.


True -- for some. Others are a bit more sensitive (and some of us ain't :D). As I've already stated: a given software package is often judged by the nature of the community which forms around it.

Query: what was being said (by some) about Poser being used to produce certain types of images again.........? And therefore being a Tool of the Enemy.......?




Now YOU Are rendering rediculous opinions. Just as insane as the Poser haters. How do you know how Newtek feels about Poser? Losing out how?
Something tells me they could care less, because they have better things to do (like 9.3) than worry about some rediculous thread about some other 3d app, which doesn't even compete.



I wasn't referring to Poser as a direct competitor to LW (I mentioned Modo); nor was I referring to Newtek as a company. I was referring to individual, virulent Poser-haters who are ensconced within the LW community at large. It's an attitude with a good chance of.....driving the despised Poserites over to apps which are perceived as being more "Poser friendly".

Cinema 4D (for example) is becoming quite popular among those with Poser roots. Those who have cut their 3D teeth with Poser: and have now arrived at a transitional phase -- a phase where they are beginning to develop an interest in playing with the "Big Boys": and they are beginning to look at the virtues of various "highend" apps.

So -- Maxon stands to possibly be adding 1000's of new users to their rosters as a result. 1000's of new users who just might (maybe) have been persuaded to invest in Lightwave. *If* they'd gotten a better flavor of support from the LW community. And yes -- Poser could potentially become an underpinning support for Lightwave; if in no sense other than as a source of shiny new, smiley-faced customers for Newtek.

So, yeah -- it's a point that's worth a lot more than a casual dismissal. I'm not saying that's what you've done here: but others clearly have. And, IMO -- against their own best interests in the long term.

sword1
11-09-2007, 11:49 PM
(re) Enter straw man, stage left.

Any poser user who ever considers moving to a highend app is probably realizing how limiting poser is to their creativity. They realize the limits of the tool as well as the limits of their work, and they realize they can broaden their skill set and free their creativity a little more by "moving up."

They do NOT tout their stuff as great art; nor do they become incredibly irritable and defensive in the face of criticism--they welcome it and use it to the effect of their betterment.

This is not the type of person I take issue with....



Haven't we already established this about fifty million times? Sh!t, I'm getting tired of hitting the bold button here.



And I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was equally warranted. Can you say "hub?" "CA tools?" etc?



True. But I wonder why you bring this fact up...? what is its relevance to the current discussion? hmm.



It's much easier to argue against an extreme position, isn't it? So you hyperbolize the argument against Poser... that's called a strawman. Yours is especially transparent. I mean, come on, "great evil designed to ruin your day?" Who said that? who even remotely implied it?



Bullsh!t. I, personally, am not slamming the all Poser users as a group. I'm just slamming the ones who fancy themselves "3D artistes" and that their art is just oh so great. Show me a LW user who thinks the same way, and I'll show you someone I could b1tch about JUST as much.

LW's strongsuit is not CA. Poser's strongsuit is pretty much just animatic/previs. It's also, as has been mentioned, an effective introduction into 3D.

"I am superior to YOU b/c I use a diff app?" come on, nobody said that. You just needed a convenient, easy point to counter, so you made one up.

So just stop hyperbolizing the opposing points, and try actually engaging in a real discussion.



:ohmy:


I especially enjoyed the "straw man" part: it's so apropos.


:i_agree:

sword1
11-09-2007, 11:55 PM
This is a market that would be shoving money towards Newtek… MONEY that would fund Newtek for better improvements and benefit us as well



We agree 110%.

Perhaps if the point is made 50,000,000 times: it might sink in. Maybe.

Where IS that bold button.......?

loki74
11-10-2007, 01:35 AM
:ohmy:


I especially enjoyed the "straw man" part: it's so apropos.


:i_agree:

I'm confused. Apropos in what regard? You agree with me? That you were using a strawman? Are you being sarcastic (its much harder to tell on the net...)? If so, I'd say you've done a rather poor job countering any points...

Digital Hermit:

Yes, anything (even Poser) that can bring users to LW is good for everyone. Poser is a tool. It has its uses. Anyone denying that would have to be pretty stupid, I think...

What reaaaaally annoys me is how it seems like EVERYONE who has ANYTHING negative to say about Poser or its users is suddenly an "elitest poser hater." Personally, having used the program, I can't stand it! I've yet to see any results from it that I like. But if I needed to do a quick and dirty previs, or I needed to quickly populate a scene to make a deadline, would I use it? You bet! Does that mean I like the progam? No. Does my dislike make me an elitist or a hater? No.

I mean, heck, if some Maya bigshot walked in here and started b1tching about LW's CA tools, I'd tell them "hey, you know what, you're right." I wouldn't get all defensive and sh!t.

calilifestyle
11-10-2007, 02:53 AM
I mean, heck, if some Maya bigshot walked in here and started b1tching about LW's CA tools, I'd tell them "hey, you know what, you're right." I wouldn't get all defensive and sh!t.
No but if he came in here saying all "CA all 3D" that came out of lightwave was sht... i bet you would.

kopperdrake
11-10-2007, 04:25 AM
Nope, isn't Craig working in London? Sheffield does seem to be a hive of CG these days. Maybe 'grim up north' no longer... Red Star Studios (http://www.redstarstudio.co.uk/index_017.asp)and Ark VFX (http://www.arkvfx.net/)both use Lightwave in their pipelines and there are several games companies based here. The Showroom Bar is often full of very 'pasty' looking people with studio tan ;)?

Ah - I just noticed his 'Sheffield, UK' tag on his avatar :) I know of Red Star Studios - some lovely stuff they do!


Sheff is good for comics too... Paul Grist (http://www.weisshahn.de/kane/) (Jack Staff / Kane) and Matt Brooker aka D'Israeli (http://www.disraeli-demon.com/) (of 2000AD fame) are just two great artists who hail from these parts.

Ooh! That's what comes of wet and windy winters (and summers come to think of it) where you can't play outside - kids growing up drawings and making computer games :D


Kopperdrake, Derby's just down the road... when are us northerners meeting up for a beer?

Cresshead was organising some in Nottingham but I only managed one before craziness of moving kicked in over summer. I'm all up for it - in fact there are a couple of Lightwavers in Birmingham who are up for it too - I'll try and get one organised in Derby if people want? We've a couple of spare rooms to put people up if needs be? There's a small brewery not far from us...would be a great excuse to sample their bevvies ;)

DiedonD
11-10-2007, 05:05 AM
...I want to state that the majority of the people here are still :heart: "warm hearted" :heart: about helping guys get into Lightwave no matter what app they come from. But I have felt a chill lately. Regards,

Yeah I notcied that too. Why is that I wonder? Is it the chilliness coming from real climate chilliness? Is global climatic chaos to blame for our inter relations aswell?! I think someone mentioned climate affection disorder!

This all might just be a bad thread, in a bad time, for you to appear Sword! But welcome aboard, youll love it here.

bobakabob
11-10-2007, 05:55 AM
Cresshead was organising some in Nottingham but I only managed one before craziness of moving kicked in over summer. I'm all up for it - in fact there are a couple of Lightwavers in Birmingham who are up for it too - I'll try and get one organised in Derby if people want? We've a couple of spare rooms to put people up if needs be? There's a small brewery not far from us...would be a great excuse to sample their bevvies ;)

Kopperdrake,

Thanks for taking the initiative. Anything involving real ale sounds great :) Friday nights are good and I'd make an exception for a Saturday. Btw, there's some remarkable work on your site. Most impressive :lwicon:

Cheers,

Bob

sword1
11-10-2007, 10:53 AM
I'm confused. Apropos in what regard? You agree with me? That you were using a strawman? Are you being sarcastic (its much harder to tell on the net...)? If so, I'd say you've done a rather poor job countering any points...

Digital Hermit:

Yes, anything (even Poser) that can bring users to LW is good for everyone. Poser is a tool. It has its uses. Anyone denying that would have to be pretty stupid, I think...

What reaaaaally annoys me is how it seems like EVERYONE who has ANYTHING negative to say about Poser or its users is suddenly an "elitest poser hater." Personally, having used the program, I can't stand it! I've yet to see any results from it that I like. But if I needed to do a quick and dirty previs, or I needed to quickly populate a scene to make a deadline, would I use it? You bet! Does that mean I like the progam? No. Does my dislike make me an elitist or a hater? No.


Stay confused :D.

OK -- you're getting dangerously close to sounding like you're starting to calm down -- perhaps just a little.

What reaaaaaaalllllllyyyyy (more letters = greater emphasis) annoys me is the failure on the part of some to recognize the simple fact that you win more over with reason than you do with self-righteous diatribes informing them all of their unfortunate ancestry: use Poser = scum from the Wrong Side of the Tracks. Not like us reaaaaalllllyyyyy important people over here dwelling in our cloud castle. We've got a sign hanging out: Only Purists LIKE US Need Apply.

The tenor of some of the posts in this thread put me in mind of nothing so much as the tenor of many of the postings during the sunset days of the Amiga --

Trust me: when I first began considering which "highend" app to go with -- the reaction from many within the Poser community to my choice of Lightwave was: "Why would you want to do that? C4D or Max is the way to go............! It's a lot easier to get your Poser content into C4D than it is to get it into Lightwave........". If some of you wish to assist in encouraging and fostering such attitudes: then you're doin' a fanatastic job of it! But -- at least there's this much: you'll have maintained your unsullied 3D purity, and it's a purity of which you can be proud.

Who knows? Perhaps in another 5 years or so, they'll be analyzing and dissecting the slow decline & fall of Lightwave in the CG world. Perhaps they'll say things like: "They did not welcome newcomers; their community became insular and utterly uninterested in being supported by 'outsiders' -- outsiders who could, potentially, have saved them by filling out their ranks. They put up "Go Away" signs to the newbie. And so......all of the ex-newbies are using C4D and Modo nowadays."

When someone is comfortable with Poser because that's their background -- and they're looking at Lightwave, C4D, Modo, Max as a means of enhancing their Poser experience: you'd be wise to offer them help rather than slamming. Like it or not -- consider it silly or not -- many people tend to take the ripping of their favorite app of choice personally. Such reactions might be "stupid" in your purist's handbook: but such reactions are nonetheless real.



I mean, heck, if some Maya bigshot walked in here and started b1tching about LW's CA tools, I'd tell them "hey, you know what, you're right." I wouldn't get all defensive and sh!t.



If that same "Maya bigshot" were to take a superiorist attitude, and then proceeded to define Lightwave users as being a lower life form across-the-board (cultural illiterates who shouldn't be allowed to vote).......then yes: you might just discover yourself coming to resent them. And the app which they are advocating. You might find yourself buying XSI Softimage instead of Maya.

Particularly if the "XSI partisans" condescended in such a way as to prove friendly, helpful, and receptive to lowly Lightwave users.

sword1
11-10-2007, 10:57 AM
Yeah I notcied that too. Why is that I wonder? Is it the chilliness coming from real climate chilliness? Is global climatic chaos to blame for our inter relations aswell?! I think someone mentioned climate affection disorder!

This all might just be a bad thread, in a bad time, for you to appear Sword! But welcome aboard, youll love it here.



Thanks, diedond! It's users like you and a good number of others in this thread (with open minds) who give me hope for the future of Lightwave.

:thumbsup:

krimpr
11-10-2007, 11:18 AM
Methinks that any Poser-related discussions have outlived any usefulness in this thread. However, kopperdrake's discussion of ales and related beveridges has not.

IMI
11-10-2007, 11:30 AM
There *is* hope for the future of LightWave. While the recent updates haven't exactly been bowling alot of people over, the fact remains that NT are continuing with the beta cycle, and will be releasing another free point upgrade. Hopefully it'll contain more of what everyone is asking most for, but that's a different subject entirely...

Not to change the subject too much, but it is, after all E-Frontier who's at fault here. The LW Community as a whole didn't petition them to put off the LW export plugin - they decided that on their own. Just speculation, but it would seem to me they decided to support the biggies like Maya and XSI first, for better name recognition.
In any event, if and when the LW export plugin is created, it's going to happen whether the LW Community as a whole likes it or not.
Then again, I wouldn't hold my hopes for it too high, considering a couple things... Poser is inexpensive. It has tools that are designed inexpensively. Meaning, I wouldn't count on them putting an inordinate amount of effort into it, unless this new Poser pro is going to be somewhat more expensive.
In other words, I wouldn't get my hopes up that its going to work as advertised. Nothing in the history of Poser has worked as advertised. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, but it's seemed to have been cursed or something, with companies who have put little more than a half-a$$ed effort into it.
E-Frontier seems different, though. Only time wil tell, I suppose, in all fairness.

IMI
11-10-2007, 11:33 AM
Methinks that any Poser-related discussions have outlived any usefulness in this thread. However, kopperdrake's discussion of ales and related beveridges has not.


Beer is always a good topic, and there should be more of it. ;)

manholoz
11-10-2007, 11:39 AM
Beer is always a good topic, and there should be more of it. ;)
:agree:

Linus Torvalds wanted Linux to be free because he likes free beer.

Qexit
11-10-2007, 11:45 AM
Kopperdrake,

Thanks for taking the initiative. Anything involving real ale sounds great :) Friday nights are good and I'd make an exception for a Saturday. Btw, there's some remarkable work on your site. Most impressive :lwicon:

Cheers,

BobCool, if this can be made to happen. Derby and Sheffield aren't too far away from Warrington (just a short hop over the Pennines, quite a nice drive over the moors too :D ) It's been a long time since I attended a LW meet, well over a year. Maybe post something over on the LW User Group News setion of the forum.....about time those Londoners had some competition :thumbsup:

steamthunk
11-10-2007, 12:09 PM
Ironically, after reading all these comments, I've become more interested in checking out Poser now! :)

loki74
11-10-2007, 12:36 PM
OK -- you're getting dangerously close to sounding like you're starting to calm down -- perhaps just a little.

There was only one point in this thread where I've been anything but calm. I simply tire of repeating myself.


What reaaaaaaalllllllyyyyy (more letters = greater emphasis)

Yes, it does. I'm not writing a term paper here. However, if you simply can't help but be a wisea** about it, I'll refrain from using any hyperbole, idiom, deliberate misspelling, inappropriate use of capital letters, or "internet phrases."


annoys me is the failure on the part of some to recognize the simple fact that you win more over with reason than you do with self-righteous diatribes informing them all of their unfortunate ancestry: use Poser = scum from the Wrong Side of the Tracks. Not like us reaaaaalllllyyyyy important people over here dwelling in our cloud castle. We've got a sign hanging out: Only Purists LIKE US Need Apply

Reason is precisely the thing I've been trying to get into this thread. Well, more objectivity than anything.

Poser has its uses, but as a tool simply cannot do the same things "high end" applications can. One can criticize any application, but that does not mean that they are "haters" or elitists.

You seem to feel that the group of Poser users who tout their art as amazing and become extremely defensive when they receive criticism do not represent Poser users or the Poser application as a whole. I would assert to you, then, that the LightWave users who have this elitist "Poser sucks, all work made in Poser sucks, and all Poser users suck" attitude does not represent the LightWave user community on the whole.

I can complain about Maya's price, Maya's UI, Max and XSI's lack of Mac support, Pixologic's tardiness releasing a Universal Binary version of ZBrush, LightWave's character animation tools, or how terribly annoying it is to use RealFlow, and I'll be perfectly fine. However, the moment I criticize Poser, I'm on thin ice.

I'm not going to deny that many high end application users have erroneously tossed some Poser users into the category of people who have the mindset, "This is my art, it is perfect, how dare you criticize it!"

However, I also feel that many Poser users (and proud ex-Poser users) have erroneously tossed some high end application users into the category of people who have the mindset, "My application is better than yours, so my work is better than yours, and I am superior to you."


When someone is comfortable with Poser because that's their background -- and they're looking at Lightwave, C4D, Modo, Max as a means of enhancing their Poser experience: you'd be wise to offer them help rather than slamming. Like it or not -- consider it silly or not -- many people tend to take the ripping of their favorite app of choice personally. Such reactions might be "stupid" in your purist's handbook: but such reactions are nonetheless real.

Find me the post in which I claimed the stupidity of such a scenario and such a reaction. All I'm saying is that regardless of how much we love the applications we use, we should have the objectivity to know if it is lacking in some area. Furthermore, this has absolutely nothing to do with being a "purist." It has to do with being able to realize the strengths and shortcomings of everything.


If that same "Maya bigshot" were to take a superiorist attitude, and then proceeded to define Lightwave users as being a lower life form across-the-board (cultural illiterates who shouldn't be allowed to vote).......then yes: you might just discover yourself coming to resent them. And the app which they are advocating. You might find yourself buying XSI Softimage instead of Maya.

I might resent them, perhaps. More likely, I'd attempt to engage in a logical discussion, which, by the way you describe this person's stance, would probably fail miserably, at which point I would cease to care. Would I begin to resent Maya? Most certainly not. Would I begin to resent all Maya users? Absolutely not.

Furthermore, I would recognize that he is one person, and that not all criticisms of LightWave coming from Maya users are exaggerated, generalizing, or for that matter, invalid.

Digital Hermit
11-10-2007, 12:45 PM
...they decided to support the biggies like Maya and XSI first, for better name recognition.
Yah about XSI... They're not even on the board... I e-mailed e-frontier about that and here is there response:

-
Thank you for your inquiry.

We are working with Softimage to improve the importing of Poser
animations into XSI thru using the Collada exchange or a plug-in like we do
with other pro apps.

Thanks again,

e frontier
-
If they are trying to keep the "link" to Posers native animation then that would be pretty usless to me and stupid of them, considering that XSI's (or any other pro app's) CA tools would blow away anything Poser could do... However, if it were an animation I could modify after export, I could have use for that ... I would probably use the rough animation as a starting point or use it for a quick previz and then have it render faster in XSI or LW respectively.


Then again, I wouldn't hold my hopes for it too high, considering a couple things... Poser is inexpensive. It has tools that are designed inexpensively. Meaning, I wouldn't count on them putting an inordinate amount of effort into it, unless this new Poser pro is going to be somewhat more expensive.
Got the price from their FAQ about PoserPro:
-
Poser Pro will be priced at $499.99 USD
-


In other words, I wouldn't get my hopes up that its going to work as advertised. Nothing in the history of Poser has worked as advertised. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, but it's seemed to have been cursed or something, with companies who have put little more than a half-a$$ed effort into it.

:agree:

Nevertheless, as you inferred they could have a turn around in their business culture... I doubt it, but ya never know.

Stooch
11-10-2007, 12:48 PM
"They did not welcome newcomers; their community became insular and utterly uninterested in being supported by 'outsiders' -- outsiders who could, potentially, have saved them by filling out their ranks. They put up "Go Away" signs to the newbie. And so......all of the ex-newbies are using C4D and Modo nowadays."


hmm. some interesting ASSumptions you are making.

For one, no one here has any "go away" signs for poser users. No one says that you arent welcome here, its just your art might be judged on a steeper scale which your newbie heart might not be able to sustain. No one here claims that poser is useless, i have used it before and many here have as well (of course its not in any gallery). so your argument is just empty, you are just splashing int he pond to make a big wave upon your entrance.

Most CG professionals are not as shallow as you imply. they will choose a tool and PAY for a tool they believe in because this isnt a hobby, its a career. you have to understand that if you want to play with the "big boys" prepare to be judged like one. and LW isnt even as harsh IMO as some of the elitism in XSI or MAYA.

oh and speaking of maya, before you generalize too much more, alot of peolple here actually use maya as well as LW. many people here are generalists, they use many applications. this isnt about "oh i must use c4D because it works with poser so well" its oh, ill use the best tool for the job, period. so your arguments are a bit shortsighted, i guess the intention is nice but to me it smells too much like craving for attention.

p.s. ive seens ome really nice poser art btw. (where it was used as an initial effort rather than finished in it). but if a poser guy comes here and starts spamming the gallery with a flood of bad art, he will have to deal with less than favorable opinions. in any forum. if you think that you get better from being patted on the back, you got another surprise coming :)

Digital Hermit
11-10-2007, 01:04 PM
Beer is always a good topic, and there should be more of it.



:agree:

Linus Torvalds wanted Linux to be free because he likes free beer.


Hey, chatty Kathy’s! Are we a talkin' or are we a drinkin'? :beerchug:

Digital Hermit
11-10-2007, 01:17 PM
... p.s. ive seens ome really nice poser art btw. (where it was used as an initial effort rather than finished in it). but if a poser guy comes here and starts spamming the gallery with a flood of bad art, he will have to deal with less than favorable opinions. in any forum. if you think that you get better from being patted on the back, you got another surprise coming :)

I guess you are right... I can see that totally happening...I guess the who's arrogant factor goes both ways - heh


BTW Stooch... (Not to highjack my own thread...)

I am really amazed at the work I have seen on your site! Question? Is the 7-Up character designed from an idea you had... or did you model it from something they were already using? Either way... it's all very cool. :thumbsup:

krimpr
11-10-2007, 01:42 PM
I guess you are right... I can see that totally happening...I guess the who's arrogant factor goes both ways - heh


BTW Stooch... (Not to highjack my own thread...)

I am really amazed at the work I have seen on your site! Question? Is the 7-Up character designed from an idea you had... or did you model it from something they were already using? Either way... it's all very cool. :thumbsup:

I like his Powerball animation. Stooch is my hero.

loki74
11-10-2007, 02:35 PM
hmm. some interesting ASSumptions you are making.

For one, no one here has any "go away" signs for poser users. No one says that you arent welcome here, its just your art might be judged on a steeper scale which your newbie heart might not be able to sustain. No one here claims that poser is useless, i have used it before and many here have as well (of course its not in any gallery). so your argument is just empty, you are just splashing int he pond to make a big wave upon your entrance.

Most CG professionals are not as shallow as you imply. they will choose a tool and PAY for a tool they believe in because this isnt a hobby, its a career. you have to understand that if you want to play with the "big boys" prepare to be judged like one. and LW isnt even as harsh IMO as some of the elitism in XSI or MAYA.

oh and speaking of maya, before you generalize too much more, alot of peolple here actually use maya as well as LW. many people here are generalists, they use many applications. this isnt about "oh i must use c4D because it works with poser so well" its oh, ill use the best tool for the job, period. so your arguments are a bit shortsighted, i guess the intention is nice but to me it smells too much like craving for attention.

p.s. ive seens ome really nice poser art btw. (where it was used as an initial effort rather than finished in it). but if a poser guy comes here and starts spamming the gallery with a flood of bad art, he will have to deal with less than favorable opinions. in any forum. if you think that you get better from being patted on the back, you got another surprise coming

Precisely.

sword1
11-10-2007, 06:21 PM
hmm. some interesting ASSumptions you are making.

For one, no one here has any "go away" signs for poser users. No one says that you arent welcome here, its just your art might be judged on a steeper scale which your newbie heart might not be able to sustain. No one here claims that poser is useless, i have used it before and many here have as well (of course its not in any gallery). so your argument is just empty, you are just splashing int he pond to make a big wave upon your entrance.

Most CG professionals are not as shallow as you imply. they will choose a tool and PAY for a tool they believe in because this isnt a hobby, its a career. you have to understand that if you want to play with the "big boys" prepare to be judged like one. and LW isnt even as harsh IMO as some of the elitism in XSI or MAYA.

oh and speaking of maya, before you generalize too much more, alot of peolple here actually use maya as well as LW. many people here are generalists, they use many applications. this isnt about "oh i must use c4D because it works with poser so well" its oh, ill use the best tool for the job, period. so your arguments are a bit shortsighted, i guess the intention is nice but to me it smells too much like craving for attention.

p.s. ive seens ome really nice poser art btw. (where it was used as an initial effort rather than finished in it). but if a poser guy comes here and starts spamming the gallery with a flood of bad art, he will have to deal with less than favorable opinions. in any forum. if you think that you get better from being patted on the back, you got another surprise coming :)




Oh.....we're not as far apart here as you seem to be thinking. I am a confirmed generalist when it comes to 3D apps. I have several programs: of which Lightwave is one of my newest interests. However, the difference which I have with some lies in the fact that I consider Poser to be a legitimate part of the mix. It's funny that you'd point this out to me -- as it's a point that I've made myself elsewhere. Many times, to "app partisans" of many stripes.

BTW - I started into 3D as a hobbyist, and I now use it to make money as well. My day job is quite different -- not in 3D at all.

If you think that I'd expect to be patted on the back (by some), then you've got a surprise coming..........

I am well aware that most CG professionals are not shallow. That's what makes them professionals. Most of the professionals aren't in this thread.

As for my making a "big splash upon my appearance" -- that was neither my design nor my purpose (if we are attributing motives). My purpose here is to make a point. Whether or not that point is received by others is entirely up to them.

Some agree with me here, and some don't. *shrug* Such is life.

As for the dread rumble of trepidation that my "newbie heart" is supposed to be feeling over the possibility of Harsh Criticism in the Offing.......let me check on that........

Nahhh. :D

I......sense that you just might be a fair-minded individual in your own way. Behind the words here: I think that we actually agree on a number of points.

sword1
11-10-2007, 06:46 PM
There was only one point in this thread where I've been anything but calm. I simply tire of repeating myself.



Yes, it does. I'm not writing a term paper here. However, if you simply can't help but be a wisea** about it, I'll refrain from using any hyperbole, idiom, deliberate misspelling, inappropriate use of capital letters, or "internet phrases."



If you say that you're calm, I'll take your word for it.




Reason is precisely the thing I've been trying to get into this thread. Well, more objectivity than anything.

Poser has its uses, but as a tool simply cannot do the same things "high end" applications can. One can criticize any application, but that does not mean that they are "haters" or elitists.

You seem to feel that the group of Poser users who tout their art as amazing and become extremely defensive when they receive criticism do not represent Poser users or the Poser application as a whole. I would assert to you, then, that the LightWave users who have this elitist "Poser sucks, all work made in Poser sucks, and all Poser users suck" attitude does not represent the LightWave user community on the whole.

I can complain about Maya's price, Maya's UI, Max and XSI's lack of Mac support, Pixologic's tardiness releasing a Universal Binary version of ZBrush, LightWave's character animation tools, or how terribly annoying it is to use RealFlow, and I'll be perfectly fine. However, the moment I criticize Poser, I'm on thin ice.

I'm not going to deny that many high end application users have erroneously tossed some Poser users into the category of people who have the mindset, "This is my art, it is perfect, how dare you criticize it!"

However, I also feel that many Poser users (and proud ex-Poser users) have erroneously tossed some high end application users into the category of people who have the mindset, "My application is better than yours, so my work is better than yours, and I am superior to you."



You make some good points here. Surprisingly: we agree on most of them. And frankly -- you are thereby answering statements that I haven't made.

What you've said here is legit, IMO. I wouldn't argue with it, for the most part. However: there most definitely ARE enough vocal Poser-haters around to give the impression that users who are still at the crossover stage aren't welcome. That's not a good thing for any community.




Find me the post in which I claimed the stupidity of such a scenario and such a reaction. All I'm saying is that regardless of how much we love the applications we use, we should have the objectivity to know if it is lacking in some area. Furthermore, this has absolutely nothing to do with being a "purist." It has to do with being able to realize the strengths and shortcomings of everything.



*shrug* Once again -- "realizing the strengths and shortcomings of everything" is perfectly OK with me......and it's the central point that I've been making all along. With the caveat that Poser is a legitimate part of that "everything". Which is a point that might get me flamed by some -- but I'm a Big Boy. ;)




I might resent them, perhaps. More likely, I'd attempt to engage in a logical discussion, which, by the way you describe this person's stance, would probably fail miserably, at which point I would cease to care. Would I begin to resent Maya? Most certainly not. Would I begin to resent all Maya users? Absolutely not.

Furthermore, I would recognize that he is one person, and that not all criticisms of LightWave coming from Maya users are exaggerated, generalizing, or for that matter, invalid.




Hmmmm. Surprisingly reasonable.

Perhaps we'll have other discussions in the future. Perhaps "ceasing to care" won't be necessary.

Steamthrower
11-10-2007, 07:44 PM
I am well aware that most CG professionals are not shallow. That's what makes them professionals. Most of the professionals aren't in this thread.

How do you define a professional, sword1? Someone who has a degree in multimedia, or is working at a VFX company, or just a really good freelancer?

Stooch
11-10-2007, 08:21 PM
I guess you are right... I can see that totally happening...I guess the who's arrogant factor goes both ways - heh


BTW Stooch... (Not to highjack my own thread...)

I am really amazed at the work I have seen on your site! Question? Is the 7-Up character designed from an idea you had... or did you model it from something they were already using? Either way... it's all very cool. :thumbsup:


thanks! the 7up character was actually designed under the guidance of Joanna Binckley (not sure if im spelling th ename right) she is the original designer and the creator of the character. I developed it while working directly with her. it has some of my interpretation but she told me exactly what she was looking for :)

krimpr
11-10-2007, 08:30 PM
Mobius Strip.

Stooch
11-10-2007, 08:43 PM
thanks! the 7up character was actually designed under the guidance of Joanna Binckley (not sure if im spelling th ename right) she is the original designer and the creator of the character. I developed it while working directly with her. it has some of my interpretation but she told me exactly what she was looking for :)

correction its joanna ferone - oops, bad with names.

sword1
11-10-2007, 09:37 PM
How do you define a professional, sword1? Someone who has a degree in multimedia, or is working at a VFX company, or just a really good freelancer?


Good question, and one that's hard to define precisely. Some would define a "3D professional" as being anyone who makes money doing this: which is perhaps the most inclusive of all definitions. While others would specify a "professional" by some of the criteria that you've mentioned: degrees; who the individual's employer happens to be; and other miscellaneous credentials that they might hold, etc. etc.. While still others seem to define a 'true 3D professional' as being someone who has come to be accepted as such by a general consensus of their peers (and unconfirmed by any type of acutal authority -- more or less effectively the result of a popularity contest in some cases.).

3D isn't a field like engineering or architecture.....which are fields where the term "professional" is a strict legal term: and involves testing, licensing and so forth. No: in 3D, the term "professional" is a term which carries a lot of shades of gray in its meaning. And thus: internecine fights over who the "professionals" are. Because your shade of gray might not be mine.

There are individuals who make their entire living off of Poser. I know some of them. In fact, some of them make quite a good living off of it. Normally, they use programs such as Max, C4D, or Lightwave to do what they do in terms of supplying content to hapless Poser addicts -- but ultimately they are paying their rent (and then some) through the use of Poser.

Can such people be considered to be 3D professionals? I'd say so -- but that's just my own chosen shade of gray talking. Others might say that the only real 3D professionals in the world all work for ILM.

Heh......if you ever happen to go through the self-checkout line at Wal Mart, be sure to look closely at the 3D female figure on the checkout screen -- the female figure who helpfully demostrates what the self-checker is supposed to be doing in order to pay for their stuff. She's the Poser 4 Casual Woman. Does such a use of Poser constitute a "professional" use? I'd say so.......but once again: shades of gray.

Would anyone here have turned down the contract from Wal Mart to create that animation....in (yeeech) Poser? I doubt it.

((Now some people will say: Ah-ha! Another reason why I hate Wal Mart!)) ;)

To answer you: I'd say that when it comes to 3D -- the question of "who are the professionals" is an open-ended one, and not easy to define precisely. To repeat myself: that's a part of the reason why people fight with each other about it.

TheRetiredSailo
11-11-2007, 12:27 PM
Forgive me, I stopped reading every post back at about page 6.

Poser is what it is, a program that many people getting into 3D as a hobby can use and get enjoyment out of. If it can have professional uses then so be it. Do I care that using it keeps me from being considered a professional quality artist? No. Fact is I do this as a hobby for my own enjoyment. I branched out to Lightwave so that I could have better and more capable tools. Maybe I'll be capable of doing something really great someday, maybe not. Meanwhile I'm having fun and doing something that I can learn from.

In short, I'm not looking for anyone's approval but my own.

Tell me something though. Why is it considered OK to use a model from 3d02.com, N-Sided's Quidam, Mesh Factory or the others but the idea of using something from Poser draws complete contempt? OK, the Poser community has a lot of models that aren't that good. I agree. Frankly though, the stuff I see on N-Sided's web site doesn't look any better than the models from e-Frontier or DAZ. It is however wrapped up in a package that says professional on it and comes with a price tag to match.

Stooch
11-11-2007, 12:35 PM
I like his Powerball animation. Stooch is my hero.

We need a blushing smiley icon lol.

Steamthrower
11-11-2007, 12:37 PM
Well, I think that it would be hard to define a 3D professional as one with a degree in multimedia - because so many people do outstanding 3D work but majored in physics or something oddball (direct jab at Bog!). Then again someone might have graduated from Gnomon and make top-notch crap - so are they professional? I don't know.


Why is it considered OK to use a model from 3d02.com, N-Sided's Quidam, Mesh Factory or the others but the idea of using something from Poser draws complete contempt?

Good question. My response to this is: if I claim something is my work, I make darn sure I made it all. I think that downloading a bunch of models from Turbosquid and putting them together in a scene and rendering them, while perhaps perfectly legitimate to make a living off of, is not called "artistic creation". Maybe it's the ingrained artist within me that makes me not do that. I just couldn't do that and then tell people I made this animation.

I'm not saying that it's wrong for people to use external content - just that they shouldn't claim to have made it all.

Stooch
11-11-2007, 12:41 PM
I think you should have kept reading the thread then :)

most people here think its ok to use poser models, but if the resulting art is bad then people will talk bad about it. A vast majority of poser art looks.... dead. its posing is unnatural and lighting sometimes is atrocious. Another thing, too many poser users dont alter the geometry at all, so if you were to show this to a professional, he will see exactly what kind of effort was put intot he piece and choose to be either A: Be impresseed or B: Unimpressed.

So the poser artist might get some negative povs in return, and often might get butt hurt when his or her (most of the time his lol) ego gets knocked down a few pegs.

so there we have it, thats when all the crying starts.

p.s. I really think that the name of the program is very unfortunate too. Its a derogative term for its user lol. talk about bad marketing.


Forgive me, I stopped reading every post back at about page 6.

Poser is what it is, a program that many people getting into 3D as a hobby can use and get enjoyment out of. If it can have professional uses then so be it. Do I care that using it keeps me from being considered a professional quality artist? No. Fact is I do this as a hobby for my own enjoyment. I branched out to Lightwave so that I could have better and more capable tools. Maybe I'll be capable of doing something really great someday, maybe not. Meanwhile I'm having fun and doing something that I can learn from.

In short, I'm not looking for anyone's approval but my own.

Tell me something though. Why is it considered OK to use a model from 3d02.com, N-Sided's Quidam, Mesh Factory or the others but the idea of using something from Poser draws complete contempt? OK, the Poser community has a lot of models that aren't that good. I agree. Frankly though, the stuff I see on N-Sided's web site doesn't look any better than the models from e-Frontier or DAZ. It is however wrapped up in a package that says professional on it and comes with a price tag to match.

parm
11-11-2007, 12:47 PM
Tell me something though. Why is it considered OK to use a model from 3d02.com, N-Sided's Quidam, Mesh Factory or the others but the idea of using something from Poser draws complete contempt? OK, the Poser community has a lot of models that aren't that good. I agree. Frankly though, the stuff I see on N-Sided's web site doesn't look any better than the models from e-Frontier or DAZ. It is however wrapped up in a package that says professional on it and comes with a price tag to match.

Very good question.

I don't see the difference between using a human shaped, computer generated mesh. Or a Cube shaped, computer generated mesh in Cg compositions either.

TheRetiredSailo
11-11-2007, 12:57 PM
OK, there's two points that I can agree and live with. Don't claim other people's work as your own and don't expect great reviews from bad work.

:agree:

sword1
11-11-2007, 01:58 PM
Just food for thought, folks -- in no way, shape, or form is this post intended to be hostile to anyone --

The Poser community is a potential gold mine for highend application manufacturers who care to "make nice" with it -- there's a lot of $$$$$$$$ to be had among Poserites for the 3D investor.....just waiting for an intrepid firm to come along and see the advantages. I believe that e-on (Vue) has already realized this fact.

If "artistic purity" is the only thing that counts -- then my advice would be to take up 2D oil painting on canvas. Or perhaps take up a very old-fashioned form of 3D artwork known as sculpting. But if a given highend 3D company is looking to grow its market (perhaps exponentially), then the Poserverse isn't a bad place to go hunting for new victi.......uh, customers. ;)

In that nasty place called the RW, it's sometimes necessary for artistic considerations to take a back seat to practical issues -- issues such as time and money. Hey -- even Michelangelo had patrons. Which (of course) he fought with a lot. But it would have been impossible for him to have achieved the things that he achieved without them.

It's a solid advantage, and a very positive thing, for Lightwave to receive support from e-frontier. And on that score, IMO -- right now: the ball resides squarely in e-frontier's court.

But it would still help for the LW community to view e-f's support as a Good Thing for LW. Agree or disagree: personally I see nothing negative coming out of Poser support for LW.......and I see a LOT of potential good deriving from such an arrangement for both apps.

We'll see if ef can make it work.

IMI
11-11-2007, 02:25 PM
Well, go tell that to EF then!
Seriously, like I said earlier, if it happens, it's gonna happen with or without the LW Community's approval, but the approval of a handful of people in this forum isn't going to do it.
You Poser people need to make it happen, if you want it.

sword1
11-11-2007, 02:40 PM
You Poser people need to make it happen, if you want it.


We're tryin'! :)

BTW - I consider myself to be a "Lightwave person", too. ;) And a Modo person and a Vue person, and........several other 2D / 3D apps.

A '3D Generalist' -- as a famous member of this forum says. Works for me.

geothefaust
11-11-2007, 02:48 PM
Well, go tell that to EF then!
Seriously, like I said earlier, if it happens, it's gonna happen with or without the LW Community's approval, but the approval of a handful of people in this forum isn't going to do it.
You Poser people need to make it happen, if you want it.

:i_agree: IMI!

Dare I call them 'posers'?

EDIT: OT, Stooch, your icon rocks!

krimpr
11-11-2007, 03:52 PM
:i_agree: IMI!

Dare I call them 'posers'?

EDIT: OT, Stooch, your icon rocks!

I think we should close this Poser thread and start a Stooch dedication thread. :bowdown:

IMI
11-11-2007, 04:11 PM
I think we should close this Poser thread and start a Stooch dedication thread. :bowdown:

Yeah, why not?
I also checked out his site because of this thread. That's some seriously good stuff there. :)

geothefaust
11-11-2007, 04:46 PM
All hail Stooch! :bowdown:

Steamthrower
11-11-2007, 04:53 PM
:goodluck:

MachineClaw
11-11-2007, 05:48 PM
Poser developer blog entry talks about the LW PoserPRO plugin development Nov. 8, 2007 entry:

http://www.poserpro.net/blog/poser_pro/2007/11/a-new-day.html

Here is a short quote:

"I'll start with addressing number 3 and keep in mind that these are my opinions here, yadda yadda....
What it comes down to is that the code we are working with on the LW plug-in is not in the same state as the other plug-ins. For a number of reasons that I can’t go into. We made the decision to hold off on announcing LW support with the Poser Pro release because we felt that it was too risky to assume we would make the deadline and offer a good solid product that would live up to expectations of features and quality. So we figured we would release is as an update to the Data exchange portion of Poser Pro ASAP after the initial release. It will just be rolled into the build with and updater. SO we didn't announce but word got out and the forums exploded with opinions and discussion. Love it or hate it, Poser has that effect on people."

Interesting that this thread provoced a entry on the blog.

Anyway LW PoserPRO plugin development seems to be a go, just soon after release. A wait and see thing. Good to know it's not abandonded entirely, but who knows.

archijam
11-11-2007, 05:52 PM
Great news. Glad that they cleared this up.

j.