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chernobylpug
11-01-2007, 08:15 PM
What's the deal with every gig I apply to (film or games) requiring any program but LW? It is very annoying. Are there any LW based animating jobs? Or do I need to punch Maya in his face?

SplineGod
11-02-2007, 02:08 PM
Learn to use the tools they require or figure out what you need to get LW assets in the form they need.

JohnMarchant
11-02-2007, 02:29 PM
Slap maya in the dish :):).

Its the nature of the business. There are alot of companies using LW, Zoic, EdenFx to name 2, its mostly TV work which requires a quick turnaround of shots, not 2 years to do the job (Hint,Hint) :):)

Steamthrower
11-02-2007, 04:04 PM
Don't listen to oldteker, he's built himself a little reputation for slamming anything Newtek related.

You'll find though that LW is used most often in television, commercials, arch viz, print design, and the more "mechanical" type modeling, though it was used for the Jimmy Neutron feature film a few years back.

Not many people use it for games, however. I'm not saying no one does, it's Max that is the big games program.

Speedmonk42
11-02-2007, 09:24 PM
It is all part of a secret plan for ultimate world domination.

They are currently lulling their enemies into a false sense of security....

Then they willl strike

GraphXs
11-02-2007, 11:03 PM
I get to use Lightwave for Modeling at my current job, of course it my copy and not works, but that way I can use all my plugins and I'm the fastest modeller there. I can model rings around the Max users. :D Yes, the models make their way into Max where all the rest of the 3D pipeline takes place. Using Max can be a pain to work with, but does have some nice features. I found a great pipeline with LW to Max. Even sometimes I do use LW for rendering, I love to show of what F-Prime can do...I love to see the look on the Max users faces drop to the floor. Whahahahahah!

:lwicon:

AreDub_3D
11-03-2007, 12:59 AM
How do you get the LW files into Max?

Andrew March
11-03-2007, 03:20 AM
You export the object in a format that Max will import ;)

Gui Lo
11-03-2007, 05:06 AM
splinegod is correct.

If you pitch for a job do not mention your tools. Let your work entice them. When they ask, ask them back what format do they want the work delivered in. Tell them you already have a sample for them to try.

You already know the problem, solve it before you pitch.

Most clients are sold on the work and those that are not are normally bad clients.
My 2 cents.

GraphXs
11-03-2007, 10:28 PM
I use OBJ's to get my models into Max. I've also done some minor test with FBX, but that is hit or miss.

othornton
11-04-2007, 02:20 AM
Hi chernobylplug,

How's the snow up in Syracuse? I sure don't miss that from my time in central NY... fun for the first three months... seasonal affective disorder anyone?

But I digress. What's your focus here? Getting a job or using LW?

My extremely inexperienced advice would be to research which tools the studios you are interested in (or that are producing the kind of work you would like to do) are using and build up any areas of your experience you find lacking. Read up on their workflow and what they use for their whole production pipeline. If possible talk to the people in your dream profession on a site (no offense to LW's community) that is industry based rather than app-specific.

I was lucky enough to go to Siggraph this year and talked to just about every company that could spare the time and attended most of the major studio's presentations to stay after for Q&A. What I learned from a lot of those lectures and conversations was that it is more important to have a solid grasp of theory over knowledge of a specific app. Here are paraphrases of some of my notes:

1) Technology changes, companies are bought and sold, but the basic theories and workflow are moving at much slower paces. If animation is your thing then this is especially true. A lot of the animators I spoke to had no idea how the character they were animating was built or rigged. (No joke, one of the Spider-Man animators couldn't tell me if their characters were NURBS, polys, or sub-Ds. He used about 5 or 6 control objects and never saw the underlying joints or even the high-res mesh used for final renders.)

2) Many studios use proprietary software that is designed and implemented in-house. The animation rigs for the Transformers were custom built and coded but could be used by anyone with a solid grasp of keyframed animation.

3) Almost everyone I talked to believed in the best tool for the job, and as such often switched programs as needed. Most of Spider-Man 3 was animated in Maya, but the symbiote goo was animated using Houdini.

4) Dreamworks' Senior Recruiter told me in plain terms that they would only look at modeling and texturing reels that dealt with NURBS surfaces, as that is their 3D medium of choice and their software is built around that choice. So if your dream is to work on Shrek 16, then NURBS must definitely be in your reel.

5) There's almost no such thing as an entry level job in the industry. There is actually, but they generally require 3-5 years of production experience. A lot of film studios will stick to this rule unless your reel really wows them (they will still look at it and keep it on file, but give preference to experienced artists), but game studios are a lot more flexible. Games are becoming so advanced these days that it is becoming a lot easier to make a lateral job move from games to film or vice versa. There was a seminar on this topic as well as another on sharing 3D assets between films and games based on them.

As far as omitting which program you use from your reel, why bother? If they think LW is a toy and you blow them away with your work, why hide it? Do you plan to hide it on your resume as well? I attended one seminar on producing resumes and demo reels in which the best demo reel shown was produced entirely in LW. Believe me, I cackled with glee when I saw it.

It never hurts to know the strengths and weaknesses of more than one program. I constantly do things with LW that my Maya buds drool over. Right now I'm trying to embrace the best of both worlds. LW sure renders prettier than Maya, but I do love the robustness of Maya's character animating tools.

Maya2LW2 ftw!!! :D

Best of luck to you in your hunt.

-Oliver Thornton

P.S. Off-topic, I find myself wondering if carpenters ever get told "Sorry, we're looking for someone who knows Black & Decker, you only know DeWalt."? Or car salesmen, "I only know how to sell Toyotas and the job needed Honda experience." Plumbers sitting around saying "Sure the roto-rooter is nice if you can afford it, but I get jobs done a lot faster and cheaper with my plunger." Just pondering. Back to work now. :lightwave

chernobylpug
11-04-2007, 08:31 PM
OTHORNTON FOR PRESIDENT!

Thanks for the very good advice. I still think I should punch Maya in the face:)

P.S. I'm originally from the South and the novelty of the snow in CNY has definitely worn off.

rdrdrd23
11-05-2007, 02:13 AM
Normally, software choice investment is not necessarily down to whats best/cheapest/most popular. Its a combination of those, but more importantly, its down to two other factors, namely
i) Historical investment. If a company (such as ours) has spent out many $$$$ on engineering a game engine to work with LW/Max/Maya assets they have a REAL reason to stick to that. Even if one of the others has 20x more features, they WONT make anything 20x better, or require the 20x extra investment in re-engineering your current pipeline to work with new software.
ii) Staff. If 90% of your staff know Maya, why buy Max? Or if they know LW, why buy Maya (etc... switch aorund the s/w for the same point!)

Re-engineering investment is *VERY* *VERY* expensive, and you spend out thousands just to get to the point of where you're at now, even before you start to get some actual benefit from the switch.

Also, bear in mind, that the games industry grew up with 3ds. The movie guys evolved using wavefront etc, so theres a historical upgrade path that a lot of those guys made.

The challenge for NT is to start making inroads INTO those areas to try and ensure LW is as FRIENDLY with other s/w as possible. You CAN'T win the seats battle with Max or Maya. Autodesk have far too much $$$ muscle, BUT you can start by having studios use LW in theire pipeline alongside peoples traditional software. That way, people can enjoy the best aspects of all software, and NT suddenly starts to pick up seats in places they didn't expect.

thats my opinion anyway.

P.S. oops- also, give it free to educational facilities! (if universities train in LW, can that be a bad thing?)

rdrdrd23
11-05-2007, 02:14 AM
p.p.s. getting snowsick... england *STINKS* for snow... still, count me in for a trip to the French alps in Jan!!! yahoo!!!

beverins
11-05-2007, 01:13 PM
P.S. oops- also, give it free to educational facilities! (if universities train in LW, can that be a bad thing?)

How true that is.

Autodesk gave my department in the university FREE COPIES OF MAYA UNLIMITED.

If I didn't like to use Lightwave so much, I would not have bothered to buy Version 9.

As it stands now, we teach both Lightwave AND Maya here. Had it been anyone in charge of administration besides me, it would have been just Maya...

Granted, how can you argue with "free" and LEGIT from the company.

Though to be sure, LW isn't that expensive for universities. It wasn't a hard sell. Though, I could rant about how EDU sales don't get any freebies, package deals or bundles (no Vue 5, no Speededit), but I guess Newtek doesn't have the money to throw around, so its cool.

Of course, I'm still rather pissed that they don't include us into their Beta program for more than ONE license, even though we have about 35 licenses. Whatever. I wonder how Dave School works that out....

Exception
11-05-2007, 03:06 PM
Lw doesn't have a network dongle, making it very unpleasant for a university.
Although Nt wanted to implement it, Safenet, the makers of the dongle, couldnt make a solution whereby not all 3rd party plugin makers would be without an efficient key lock for networks.
So you can thank safenet for that.

beverins
11-05-2007, 03:38 PM
Lw doesn't have a network dongle, making it very unpleasant for a university.
Although Nt wanted to implement it, Safenet, the makers of the dongle, couldnt make a solution whereby not all 3rd party plugin makers would be without an efficient key lock for networks.
So you can thank safenet for that.

You know, I don't even mind the dongle. I figured out a way to make it so nobody breaks or steals the USB dongle (I have a PC lab, but we also have a Mac lab - we had a glut of USB extenders from the MAcs, so I used them in the PC and routed them inside the case). I have enough licenses to cover most of the machines I use.

Just wondering how many licenses one has to buy, and how many years of buying their products (we've been buying Newtek products since DigiView) one has to tally before you get some special consideration. Not asking for much... just, you know.. I would like to keep my labs on the bleeding edge of betas. :thumbsup: Or something. I dunno... candy? LOL :D

meathead
11-06-2007, 12:33 PM
You know, I don't even mind the dongle. I figured out a way to make it so nobody breaks or steals the USB dongle (I have a PC lab, but we also have a Mac lab - we had a glut of USB extenders from the MAcs, so I used them in the PC and routed them inside the case). I have enough licenses to cover most of the machines I use.
Just wondering how many licenses one has to buy, and how many years of buying their products (we've been buying Newtek products since DigiView) one has to tally before you get some special consideration. Not asking for much... just, you know.. I would like to keep my labs on the bleeding edge of betas. :thumbsup: Or something. I dunno... candy? LOL :D

A lot of people ***** around here about LW, and offer very little in the way of solutions, but you sir have a legitimate gripe.

You single handily are helping keep LW alive in your neck of the woods. You coulda let your university dept just move ahead with that other program (damn, free is hard to beat) but you didn't. I am always trying to get new 3d software choosers to buy LW over the other guy in my network. Its in our best interest to spread the word.

Keep up the good work!!!:thumbsup:

Steamthrower
11-06-2007, 01:04 PM
You know, the demo video made by several forum users here was quite impressive. I really think that something like that, if provided by Newtek, would be quite effective. I don't even think that there's an official LW demo vid at all.

cresshead
11-06-2007, 01:10 PM
lightwave...and 'marketing'...not seen that since lightwave 7.0

nomad108
11-06-2007, 02:59 PM
I still think I should punch Maya in the face:)

Fine by me. Would you mind holding this brick while you do it? :hey:

BTW, we had snow in Rochester today. Hope you escaped it.

beverins
11-08-2007, 09:54 AM
I posted over in the Modo flamewar of an interesting case study. Thought I would repost it here...

I have a student in one of the 3d classes, who is what appears to be, a Maya expert and well heeled in Zbrush. His work is creatively very good, I think he needs to get past Monsters but he's got the stuff, looks like.

Thing is, the class he enrolled in is a Lightwave class. We have Maya installed for the Maya class, and I made it available in the Lightwave class just because I think people who want to use Maya in conjunction with LW should do so.

What peeves me slightly is that he refuses to use Modeler. This is a modeling class and we use LW Modeler - we don't have Modo yet - but he insists on just using Maya. He puts out quality work, so I dunno how to approach it. He does the homework. However, he refuses to touch Modeler. At all. Not even to TRY it. Not even to follow the class tutorials (arguably, the rest of the class are beginners, and these tutorials are rather beneath his skill level). Hw doesn't even try to follow the class tutorials using Maya, to try to translate the tools in his head. He just does his own thing.

His reasoning for this is that he believes LW isn't an industry standard, and that the last he played with LW was 7.5, and it sucked, and why bother learning something that he can't use in real life production?

I'm not the teacher, just the admin - the teacher shrugged and said as long as he turns in the projects, it was cool. It was because she saw the quality of his zbrush sculpting that she agreed to let him do that. Although, like I said - he needs to get past the Monsters. Nice monsters, though.

Whats interesting is he's a Zbrush Evangelist, and will go out of his way to teach people Zbrush.

So, with his obvious skill, and obvious talent, what I don't get is why would you register for a Lightwave class and then not want to learn Lightwave? Some people are weird. I can't understand HATE for a software package. As an example, I can see that Houdini is not a program for me. I find it extremely difficult and nonsensical - yet if I was in a 3D class where they taught Houdini I would do my best to follow along, using Houdini. I wouldn't ask "can I do all the projects in Lightwave", even if LW was right there on the desktop next to Houdini.

I dunno.

Rant is completely off topic, I know.

meathead
11-08-2007, 11:12 AM
I posted over in the Modo flamewar of an interesting case study. Thought I would repost it here...
I have a student in one of the 3d classes, who is what appears to be, a Maya expert and well heeled in Zbrush. His work is creatively very good, I think he needs to get past Monsters but he's got the stuff, looks like.
Thing is, the class he enrolled in is a Lightwave class. We have Maya installed for the Maya class, and I made it available in the Lightwave class just because I think people who want to use Maya in conjunction with LW should do so.
What peeves me slightly is that he refuses to use Modeler. This is a modeling class and we use LW Modeler - we don't have Modo yet - but he insists on just using Maya. He puts out quality work, so I dunno how to approach it. He does the homework. However, he refuses to touch Modeler. At all. Not even to TRY it. Not even to follow the class tutorials (arguably, the rest of the class are beginners, and these tutorials are rather beneath his skill level). Hw doesn't even try to follow the class tutorials using Maya, to try to translate the tools in his head. He just does his own thing.
His reasoning for this is that he believes LW isn't an industry standard, and that the last he played with LW was 7.5, and it sucked, and why bother learning something that he can't use in real life production?
I'm not the teacher, just the admin - the teacher shrugged and said as long as he turns in the projects, it was cool. It was because she saw the quality of his zbrush sculpting that she agreed to let him do that. Although, like I said - he needs to get past the Monsters. Nice monsters, though.
Whats interesting is he's a Zbrush Evangelist, and will go out of his way to teach people Zbrush.
So, with his obvious skill, and obvious talent, what I don't get is why would you register for a Lightwave class and then not want to learn Lightwave? Some people are weird. I can't understand HATE for a software package. As an example, I can see that Houdini is not a program for me. I find it extremely difficult and nonsensical - yet if I was in a 3D class where they taught Houdini I would do my best to follow along, using Houdini. I wouldn't ask "can I do all the projects in Lightwave", even if LW was right there on the desktop next to Houdini.
I dunno.
Rant is completely off topic, I know.

No, you are right in my opinion. We attend institutions of higher education to recieve an education...not get a job!

He should be graded on his growth over the semester. Just because he came in a Picasso, he still needs to be a better Picasso and a better human being. The refusal to learn something new is a awful trait to have.

Reminds me of my days back in fine arts school. I had a professor who pulled me aside one day. Told me, something along these lines -it was years ago so I am paraphrasing:

"Although you are continually turning in the best drawings in the class (it was an illustration class), I feel your work is not getting any better, and you should be graded on your own growth, not in comparison to the others."

I hated him then, but he was right. I was just going thru the motions, riding on my natural skill, and my work was creatively stagnate. Not challenging myself in any way to be a better artist, which is always possible. When I went back to school years later, like all who return in the later years, I did every project like it had to be the best. Kids in college have no idea how good they have it.

othornton
11-08-2007, 11:50 AM
Thanks for the very good advice. I still think I should punch Maya in the face:)

P.S. I'm originally from the South and the novelty of the snow in CNY has definitely worn off.

You are very welcome. You are welcome to try, I think the president of Autodesk would be a good place to start. How funny that you're from the south, I'm living in Atlanta now and enjoying a drought-driven mild winter.

It's interesting that the lack of LW in academic environments has sprung up in this conversation. I started my real 3d learning by playing around with LW a few years back. I went to the Art Institute of Atlanta to get more formal training in 3d animation, knowing full well that they used Maya as their primary tool.

Over the years I have spoken to several teachers about using Lightwave in the classes and most were receptive. However since most teachers required a Maya file as the end product, I very rarely got the chance to translate my Maya lessons over to LW and had to do all my animating in Maya. I have been allowed to use LW for modeling in almost every class though and find it to still be a much more robust system, especially with regards to sub-D modeling.

Nearing the end of my degree program I find that Maya is increasingly the program I hate to love. It is so crazy easy to rig and animate in that program that I wonder if I will ever animate in LW again. The modeler on the other hand I wouldn't trade for anything. Maya's modeling is so unstable that I have often lost weeks of work in a single instant because the NURBS or sub-ds went crazy. It blows my mind that a program that is so powerful can't even reliably produce a stable mesh. The ability to easily toggle back and forth from polys to sub-ds without a crash amazes Maya users every time I show them LW. Mention APS and you might as well be speaking Greek.

Alright, I'm rambling too much, time to wrap this up.

beverins - how would your student react if he had to hand in a lwo file with any projects? Would he just import it? Does he know how many features LW has been used in? As far as the monsters go, has he read any articles about job stability in the CG market? Does he realize how lucky he would have to be to find a studio that ONLY specializes in CG monsters? Even at gaming houses this would be extremely rare I would think. Perhaps get him hooked with some of LW's 3rd party functionality. I have sold several people on LW based solely on the strength of LWCad and the 9.3 demo reel assembled by the LW community.

-Oliver Thornton

beverins
11-09-2007, 08:04 AM
Part of the assignment actually is to submit a LWO, but unless he keeps everything on his flash drive I don't see anything in his network folder.

I think he's a bit big for his britches, so to speak - he IS good, no question, but he feels he's going to become a senior art director. He's nowhere near that level, even with his nice monsters. He went to Vancouver Art School, but now he wants to get his Masters here.. I really don't understand why he didn't just go on to Full Sail or something. He's very passionate about doing 3D, and he says he isn't interested in the theory side of things at all (which is half of the Master's program here). Then he knows we teach Lightwave.. well whatever. Like I said in the other thread, when time comes for his thesis he's going to have to either babysit the Maya renders or learn to translate his final scenes into LW so we can use the renderfarm.. being that I'm using ButterFlyNet-Render and have yet to purchase or install the Maya module.

Time will tell, I guess.

mrpapabeis
11-12-2007, 08:50 AM
I feel for you sir.

I've seen many talented students shoot themselves in the foot so to speak. Your student seems to lack "flexibility". Watch for the "teachable" moment. You still might be able to help him.


GP

Ramon
11-12-2007, 08:11 PM
Well, I use (have used) .obj format and that seems to work best with importing to Max. I didn't think I'd say this because just the idea of working with Max was quite troublesome for me but, after working with it ver 9 for about 7 to 12 months now at my company, I really do enjoy it. Particularly the cut tool. It's incredibly fast for reforming your poly flow unlike add edges in LW. But then again, I wish Max had the magnet tool. Anyway, both programs have there own strengths but since what I do in 3D is mostly modeling, Max, particularly 2008, is I feel ahead of LW which hasn't seen any big advancements in it's modeler in quite some time now. I wish Max could tumble around objects in perspective like LW can. Max has a very annoying gimble issue.
A buddy of mine at our studio is a LW / Max user as well and ever once and awhile I see him using his own LW copy at work to get some particular thing done.
All the best!

Speedmonk42
11-13-2007, 05:36 PM
Do mind telling us where these LW courses are taught?

What other schools teach LW?

The only school I knew of was Dawson College in Montreal, and it recently dropped it for Max and Maya.