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infilta
10-26-2007, 10:01 PM
Hi, I am new at the forum and pretty new to LW as well.
I am modeling an appliance that's similar to a hair dryer. My problem is modeling/texturing perforated metal parts.

The surface must look like this, kinda:

http://infilta.com/design/3_outside.jpg
http://infilta.com/design/4_inside.jpg

And the overall shape is similar to this:
http://www.budget-beauty.com/wp-content/hairdryer.jpg

I was trying to use perforated metal maps for color/bump/transparency in sphere but here's what I get:
http://infilta.com/design/sphereZ.jpg
http://infilta.com/design/sphereY.jpg
http://infilta.com/design/sphereX.jpg

Where all holes are distorted.

What can I do? Please help.

Hopper
10-26-2007, 10:29 PM
My first though would be to use Point Clone Plus with some cylinders in another layer and Boolean them to put the holes in the geometry, but then again I'm a noob so I guess it's like the blind leading the blind (just tryin to help).

But more importantly, will you be adding the idiot stickers to your new appliance? Like "Do not use in while sleeping" or "Do not use in the bathtub" and "WARNING: HOT - Do not place in mouth"?

:hey:

-Hopper

hrgiger
10-27-2007, 08:17 AM
Well, if you want to do a detailed model that won't break up under a close render, you may want to model the meshing. What you can do is build it flat and then use one of the modify tools with falloff to bend it into the curved shape of the end of the dryer.
It's easiest to start with one hole (use a circle of as few points as possible because it will generate a lot of geometry) and then extend out the geometry around it and connect them together. Then clone it outwards until you have a mesh large enough to work with.
I did this in a couple of minutes, although I didn't place the holes close enough together for your example, you get the idea. It looks kind of crazy but it's not that hard to do. You could probably get away with a few less polygons then I did, but I wanted it to bend ok.
Notice the holes get kind of squarish on your picture you posted. That shows it was pretty much built much the same way I'm telling you to model it. That mesh was a flat screen and they molded it to the curved front that is is, and it streched the holes around the edge.

Andyjaggy
10-27-2007, 09:03 AM
Model it. If you want a completely undistorted texture then you are going to need to UV map it.

markschum
10-27-2007, 12:50 PM
If you uv map that part and use spherical mapping you will get less distortion than planar map .

infilta
10-27-2007, 10:24 PM
It's easiest to start with one hole (use a circle of as few points as possible because it will generate a lot of geometry) and then extend out the geometry around it and connect them together. Then clone it outwards until you have a mesh large enough to work with.
I did this in a couple of minutes, although I didn't place the holes close enough together for your example, you get the idea. It looks kind of crazy but it's not that hard to do. You could probably get away with a few less polygons then I did, but I wanted it to bend ok.
Notice the holes get kind of squarish on your picture you posted. That shows it was pretty much built much the same way I'm telling you to model it. That mesh was a flat screen and they molded it to the curved front that is is, and it streched the holes around the edge.
Wow this is impressive. I probably have to read your "how to" 5 more times before I can try it. I didn't quite get it, but result looks good.
Meanwhile I don't know how it will look on the actual model after quite a bit of bending. On the actual model not only the top part of the dryer would be like that but imagine if all of it is made from mesh.

Meanwhile a friend of mine made for me this today, it looks great, but I know he didn't use LW. Probably it was 3DS. But that's the result I was looking for. Should I switch to Max?

http://infilta.com/design/perf-sheet-metal-by-koll.jpg

vfxwizard
10-28-2007, 04:27 AM
But that's the result I was looking for. Should I switch to Max?


Hi,
by all means switch to max, LW is not up to the task.

Hey, just kidding.

The suggestions previously posted in this thread are all quite good. Note how hrgiger has pointed to the fact the real mesh is deformed at the edges having been created flat and then conformed to the rounded shape. Doing it on a sphere is less realistic (I think it would be quite costly to build a perfect rounded mesh for an hairdryer).

Anyway here is my easy approach to a perfect sphere like the one in your example. It would have looked better with larger holes.

http://www.vfx-wizard.com/external/mesh/meshpic.jpg

The following tutorial seems complex but that's because I'm verbose and try to describe everything so it's useful for everybody.

However, it takes less than a minute to do it in practice.

Holes punched on a mesh should be spaced equally. In figure 1 left we can see there is an underlying hexagonal structure in the mesh. Fig 1 middle shows an hexagonal pattern, where the central hole is a single point. Fig 1 right shows how Catmull Clark's "extraordinary points" (technical name of those nasty points where many edges converge) resemble exactly the structure we were looking for. Bingo, found the shortcut!

http://www.vfx-wizard.com/external/mesh/mesh00.jpg


1. Add a sphere, set it to Tesselation to get a nice hex pattern, set division to 5 (or more, for more holes).

2. Select Catmull Clark subdivisions from the SubD Type drop down. Press Tab. Make sure in General Options (key o) the Catmull Clark level is set to 1. Press Ctrl-D to freeze the sub-d into polygons.

3. We now have the shape in figure 2 left, press 'w' while in point mode and press the plus sign next to ">4 Polygons". This selects all the extraordinary points, like in figure 2 right.

http://www.vfx-wizard.com/external/mesh/mesh01.jpg

4. Select Multiply > Rounder, open its numeric panel with 'n', select Round Points, 1 Rounding polygon and OpenGL polys like in figure 3. The inset distance and OGL % value will determine how tightly spaced your holes will appear. My sphere was big, 1,5mt in radius. Also, assign a name to the new surface, in this case 'hole'.

http://www.vfx-wizard.com/external/mesh/mesh02.jpg

5. Go to poly mode, 'w', select by surface the 'hole' polygons and kill them.

6. To give the mesh some thickness use a thickener plugin, or do it the old way with Ctrl-C, 'f', Shift-F and drag inside, Ctrl-V, 'm'. Then, go back to subd-mode with tab. And you have the model in figure 4.

http://www.vfx-wizard.com/external/mesh/mesh03.jpg

Oh, I know many people prefer attached images, but a tutorial like this works best with images inline.

Hope this helps!

IMI
10-28-2007, 06:06 AM
But more importantly, will you be adding the idiot stickers to your new appliance? Like "Do not use in while sleeping" or "Do not use in the bathtub" and "WARNING: HOT - Do not place in mouth"?


:lol:


That's pretty cool there, vfxwizard, thanks for the mini-tut. :)

hrgiger
10-28-2007, 09:13 AM
That's pretty cool. I was actually wondering how to model the sphere myself...

infilta
10-29-2007, 12:21 PM
That was a great tutorial, really appreciate it.

But now I realize that for what I really need it won't work as product shape is a little more complex then a plane or sphere. Meanwhile it is a good technique.

Surrealist.
10-29-2007, 01:57 PM
You can replicate a series of hexagons using the Array tool.

Create a Hexagon with the disc tool.

Select this poly.

Bevel Inset Only. (Note that the thickness of the wall at this point will determine the size of the holes compared to the grid. Mine is maybe a little thin.)

DeletePoly.

Array 1 row.

Merge points.

Copy

Move away.

Paste

Use the Snap Drag tool (set to connected points)on a point you want connected to drag the moved row polys down and snap into place.

Merge points.

Copy both rows.

Repeat - copying and snap dragging all rows each time.

This will quickly give you one large grid of holes and it is all quads so you can use subpatches rather than CCs.


The next step is to bend it into a volume.

Surrealist.
10-29-2007, 02:04 PM
Use the Bend tool to do this. I had to bend it to 364.5 to get the row around the distance to connect (by half a row so it would complete the grid)

Merge points.

From here you can use the Spline Guide tool.

Then Thickener 3 plugin and subpatch.

Now I think if you are going to use this method it could work. But you are going to have to build it in pieces and use other modeling methods to manipulate the grid into the volume you need then multiple actions to get the final shape.

Surrealist.
10-29-2007, 07:58 PM
Also looking at the thread again I see hrgiger pretty much had the same idea.

And thinking more about it perhaps with a bit of planning and forethought you could even merge a few shapes together. For instance if you needed a handle you could do that separately and plan it so that you had the right amount of holes to connect and then patch them in by hand with the snap drag tool and merge points.

But it all depends on the design. Is it all perfs or are there other parts connected so you could end the perfs in a solid piece?

colkai
10-30-2007, 03:25 AM
Great mini-tut VFX and one filed under "very useful" for future ref. :)

Bog
10-30-2007, 10:42 AM
Indeedy - that's a cracking bit of thinking there! Thanks.

Twisted_Pixel
10-30-2007, 11:34 AM
Hi,

The following tutorial seems complex but that's because I'm verbose and try to describe everything so it's useful for everybody.




Thanks for the tutorial, interesting method.
Was a little bored so took the time to convert the info into a pdf, for easier referencing by people, hope that is ok.

vfxwizard
10-31-2007, 10:21 AM
took the time to convert the info into a pdf, for easier referencing by people, hope that is ok.

Yes, of course, thanks for doing that (however, there's plenty of good tips in the whole thread).

And thanks everybody for the nice words.

Surrealist.
10-31-2007, 11:36 AM
vfxwizard, that was brilliant though. I never even realized that when applied to triangles CC would make those patterns. That's one of those great under-the-hood hidden tips. :)

Andyjaggy
10-31-2007, 01:36 PM
that's a really cool technique. Thanks.

DS613
11-01-2007, 09:38 AM
Thanks for the mini Tut VFXWizard, I decided to take a stab at it while messing with nodes. thanks!

infilta
11-04-2007, 02:38 PM
Guys you've been very helpful. This approach (perforation) eventually didn't help my project but I've learned a few cool trick from you. Good stuff, thanks a lot.

infilta
11-10-2007, 10:11 PM
Hi again. I have a question to Surrealist or whoever knows how to do it best.
For example I take this flat mesh that I did following Surrealist's tutorial, which I actually successfully accomplished.
Now I need to form this flat mesh into a shape similar to the ones in these images (in purple):
http://infilta.com/design/kenwood-kitchen-machine.png

http://infilta.com/design/philips-vaccuum.png

What kind of tools and techniques should I use?

Exception
11-11-2007, 02:34 AM
Good grief...
That's not easy!
If you can get away with mapping it with an image I'd do so by all means... if not, I'd try to get a really good subD mesh going with a good flow, then pointclone cyclinders on the normals of the polys and boolean them out of a surface.

Surrealist.
11-11-2007, 03:03 AM
The top picture if the metal does not have to also form over the top it would be easy with the bend tool. If it does have to bend over then it will take more planning. Think like a pattern for a dress or for the die cut for a box or other object to be folded or otherwise crafted into a volume from a flat surface. That's just off the top of my head, in practice there might be a better way.

The Bottom Picture you could do with a combination of Spline Guide and perhaps the bend tool or other deformer such as dragnet after you first bend the edges over slightly.

The key thing is that it has to keep the 6 around one pattern of the hex. That is the standard used in packing material and in this kind of metal so that limits other geometry solutions. A map is still an option and you could use it to displace the geometry and perhaps in combo with a clip map but still the hex has to match up so that would take careful editing of a UV map.

DogBoy
11-11-2007, 05:01 AM
I agree, you would be better off using a displacement map to sink the peforations in and a gradient to set transparency.

But, if you wanted to model it there is a brute force way to do the same technique. You rail extrude or spline patch your geometry. Then you need to cut it into a relatively square pattern. I used a 2 point poly and used two rails to rail extrude it into shape (pic.1). Note in pic.2 that the geometry appears to be double sided? For some reason LW seems to make double the polies so you need to unify on the mesh before you go much further. Then cut horizontaly into it by constraining the cut tool with the MMB.

This where it gets tedious (and could do with a script): You note in vfxwizards tesselated sphere that 2 (vertical) triangles make a diamond shape? that is the key. Square polys can't make that shape as all points can only be on 4 polys at most.

So, using the connect tool you need to divide the squares into triangles in alternating directions (LW can't do this correctly on its own), as in pic.3.

Then you have to select 2 polies at a time and merge them till you get the same diamond pattern. I've done some already in pic.4 to show how it should look. Then just remove the extra points to make these into tris.

Once you have done it for the whole object vfxwizards technique should see you to the end.

But personally I'd do the displacement map ;)

infilta
11-15-2007, 03:47 PM
Hi, thanks all of you for help.
I tried texturing bump and transparency with mesh pattern and it seemed to work. Here are small examples of what I got (sorry for the size, I rendered them pretty small).

http://infilta.com/design/mesh.png

It looks alright but you can tell mesh doesn't have any depth.
What would be the best way to add depth to the mesh using textures?

infilta
11-15-2007, 04:13 PM
Hm... can't edit my own post. Anyway, wanted to also add this pic:

http://infilta.com/design/mesh2.png

Looks unrealistic without extra depth for the mesh.

Surrealist.
11-15-2007, 04:37 PM
It looks alright but you can tell mesh doesn't have any depth.
What would be the best way to add depth to the mesh using textures?

You could set up a displacement map if the object is done in Subdivision Surfaces.

voriax
11-15-2007, 07:19 PM
The way this sort of material is made and shaped in real life, is that it's made flat and then bent/shaped/deformed to fit to whats needed. Hence why it's usually pretty basic shapes like speaker covers.
Maybe thats the best way to do it in 3d?
If you can't make it bend realistically in 3d, then it probably can't be done in reality. If you need to, separate it into a couple of pieces.
For the top image with the pink shading, the side part of the top would be one piece, then the top part would either be another piece, or it would be bent along the straight edge and cut to fit the curve of the sides.
I don't think I'm helping.

infilta
11-15-2007, 09:50 PM
Well in reality the object will have a number of pieces. I was going to use real mesh with depth for closeups and texture or displacement map (even though I don't know how to do the latter) for full object shot. The object that I am making is a little more complex in shape then the ones I used as examples. Unfortunately I can't show the entire object as it is someone's intellectual property. But examples I gave before, e.g. hair dryer, are pretty close to the real object, but then mesh is used on more parts then just to cover end of the motor.

gerry_g
11-16-2007, 10:06 AM
Displacement is very heavy on ram, i.e. it will max out 2Gigs of ram as a minimum and if you already have a detailed large object to render this could be a problem, not to mention displacement is a bit flaky if your using 9.3. It also slows down render times as the mesh subdivision (you have to use a sub d object) is a pre process that is added to the beginning of your render. Have you ever considered clip mapping as an alternative, it's quick and easy to do and saves an awful lot of trouble.

infilta
11-16-2007, 04:23 PM
Looks great, but to be honest I never heard of clip mapping.
My problem is that I am somewhat familiar with modeling, but pretty new to rendering. I will try to find some info on clip mapping.


Displacement is very heavy on ram, i.e. it will max out 2Gigs of ram as a minimum and if you already have a detailed large object to render this could be a problem, not to mention displacement is a bit flaky if your using 9.3. It also slows down render times as the mesh subdivision (you have to use a sub d object) is a pre process that is added to the beginning of your render. Have you ever considered clip mapping as an alternative, it's quick and easy to do and saves an awful lot of trouble.

colkai
11-17-2007, 02:23 AM
In layout, Go to object, 'p' for properties, under the render tab, there is clip map.
This behaves like a texture, but cuts away based on whether the image has black or white. It's a pure cut, unlike transparency, it is either cut or not so simple black and white textures will do the job.
You can use it in conjunction with forced bump values to give the appearance of depth to a 2D object. See attached scene for an example

Surrealist.
11-28-2007, 09:49 PM
Check this out if you have not already. Great proton video (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=623968#post623968) that would make this work.

Surrealist.
11-28-2007, 10:34 PM
Oops double post.

Lewis
12-03-2007, 02:43 PM
Also search some plugins on FLAY for this kind of things. HeatPress and BGconfirm can deform you any polygon shape to backgorund shape. That's how i make some interior headlight bumps on cars and similar stuff. It's not absolutely precise but it works very nice.

maxreal
11-29-2009, 06:48 AM
hello to all, But if you had to pierce a circle like l' example in photo?

http://www.calder.it/img/prodotti_alluminio/schiaccia_patate_alluminio.jpg

Amurrell
11-29-2009, 07:33 AM
Revival of an old thread.

I do things a bit more directly. I would model the object, freeze it if need be, set up objects in a background layer where I want the holes and then boolean subtract those from the model. There are other great methods above, but that's how I like to do things, that way I'm not messing with textures, displacements and the like, but actual geometry.

maxreal
11-29-2009, 11:19 AM
Revival of an old thread.

I do things a bit more directly. I would model the object, freeze it if need be, set up objects in a background layer where I want the holes and then boolean subtract those from the model. There are other great methods above, but that's how I like to do things, that way I'm not messing with textures, displacements and the like, but actual geometry.

Hello, the booleane I know myself to them, but I want to create of the holes in modality subD for which only poly quad.

gerry_g
11-29-2009, 02:56 PM
Jeto Fillet and Jetto Bevel (why jeto is spelt different in each ask the author Javier Gomez) First off I used the Fillet tool on some arrayed polygons and then used the bevel tool on the results, unfortunately I had to fill in all the gaps after using the first tool as you can see.

cagey5
11-29-2009, 04:03 PM
It's not an easy one because if you arrange the quads towards the centre circle they get smaller towards the centre which isn't present in the photo. Likewise the quick attempt I've made shows holes of uniform size but lacks the concentric circle look.

There's probably a better solution out there but fotr what it's worth mine involved making a square made of of even squares. One bevel operation, and delete the internal squares. Pick all the polys that fall fully inside an outlines circle. Delete all the others and background conform the outer points to the circle circumference.