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Jockomo
10-22-2007, 01:51 PM
You know it kills me that with as much help as lightwave needs at this point that you guys would spend development time and money creating a new program.

I mean seriously, do you think you are going to compete with Premier and Final Cut? There is no way you're going to catch those guys and even if you did how will you compete with the kind of integration they have with the other elements essential to their suites like after effects or color?

What is the point of entering this market? I am completely baffled and annoyed at this move.

Lightwolf
10-22-2007, 01:57 PM
You know it kills me that with as much help as lightwave needs at this point that you guys would spend development time and money creating a new program.
What new program? You mean the successor to VT Edit? ...which has been coded by an entirely different team anyhow?
And while I can see some small changes a video savvy coder yould bring to LW... it wouldn't really make the dev team that more effective.


I mean seriously, do you think you are going to compete with Premier and Final Cut?
...
What is the point of entering this market? I am completely baffled and annoyed at this move.
There is plenty of niches there as compared to the tiny 3D market. I don't see it as a waste at all, and SE is a solid product for what it does (I only use PPRo if I really need to, otherwise SE all the way).

Cheers,
Mike

robewil
10-22-2007, 01:59 PM
I, for one am glad they did. First of all, its not really a new product but an update to VT-Edit that has been around for several years. SpeedEdit, while not perfect, has an elegant interface and I can work with it much more efficiently than I could with Premiere.

Newtek has never been just about Lightwave.

Jockomo
10-22-2007, 02:11 PM
Open source owns the niche market for low priced easy to use software.

IMO Newtek needs to focus on the products it has less competition in.
But what do I know? I have only been buying their products since 1995.

Perhaps I am missing something but what is hard or un-elegant about PremierPro?

Oh and as much as I hate to say it, I don't mean put a video coder in LW development.
I mean get rid of the video coder and hire more 3d development.

cresshead
10-22-2007, 02:16 PM
Open source owns the niche market for low priced easy to use software.

IMO Newtek needs to focus on the products it has less competition in.
But what do I know? I have only been buying their products since 1995.

Perhaps I am missing something but what is hard or un-elegant about PremierPro?

Oh and as much as I hate to say it, I don't mean put a video coder in LW development.
I mean get rid of the video coder and hire more 3d development.

what's hard...getting annoyed with prem pro or final cut moving around loads of edit's...that's what!!!


i used final cut express on my last dvd project and whilst it did the job i'm more than sure that speed edit could have created the program MUCH faster with less hair pulling/teeth pulling...i've not got speed edit as yet but it's on my list of go get's once i have my new pc sorted out.

having a storyboard AND a timeline looks a real winner.

you also need a short history lesson...NEWTEK made a video editor...''then'' addeda titler..which grew into a 3d app...called lightsnack...opps!"sorry lightwave!
if anything newtek could dump lightwave and expand the video side...with colour fx and dvd.....'shudder!!!!!':newtek: :devil:

Lightwolf
10-22-2007, 02:17 PM
Open source owns the niche market for low priced easy to use software.
Find me an open source alternative as good as SE and I'll switch... NOW!


Perhaps I am missing something but what is hard or un-elegant about PremierPro?
Speed. As simple as that... by the time I render my initial preview in PPro I'm already finished with it in SE (if the SE tools are sufficient for the projects, which is usually the case).

Cheers,
Mike

blazer003
10-22-2007, 02:41 PM
As a long time user of Premiere Pro and a new user of VT-Edit I can say that there are very few things I liked better about Premiere. I think that if you lined up a bunch of video editing programs and had people go at it, most would choose VT or Speed Edit. But name recognition is the big reason Premiere is popular. And it is a decent program.


Open source owns the niche market for low priced easy to use software.

Now on the flip side, I now have Lightwave with my new VT purchase and have messed around with it a little. I know it isn't like switching from one video editor to another because there is much less of a "standard" way to lay out a 3d app, but I just don't see as how Lightwave is much more powerful, or can do much that Blender can't.

I will have to update this when I get more familiar with Lightwave and give a final rundown, but Blender is free, and open source, and to me seems like it will encroach on Light Wave's niche market before any Open Source video editor makes its presence felt.

ercaxus
10-22-2007, 02:59 PM
I don't know anything about SE but I hope the guys who worked on SE interface get involved in LW UI redesign.

Wouldn't it make sense if they had some guys working on a UI that can be shared by all the software they make. Isn't it how GTK and QT (and million other) applications basically work? I really don't think that Adobe reinvents the UI for every application it releases and they coincidentally look all the same.
One interface to use them all. Was this cheesy enough?

robewil
10-22-2007, 03:10 PM
IMO Newtek needs to focus on the products it has less competition in.
But what do I know? I have only been buying their products since 1995.Take it from someone who has been using their products since 1986. Newtek has always been a provider of video products since they started. They virtually created the desktop video with the Video Toaster in 1990. Oh yeah, that Toaster contained a 3D program called Lightwave.

Now I realize that Lightwave took on a life of its own and eventually broke free of the Video Toaster but Newtek's mission has always been to put professional video tools in the hands of those who can't afford what the big studios use.


NEWTEK made a video editor...''then'' addeda titler..which grew into a 3d app...called lightsnack...opps!"sorry lightwave!

No, Lightwave has always been a 3D multi-purpose program. Its roots are Aegis Videoscape 3D created by Allen Hastings and Aegis Modeler 3D created by Stuart Ferguson. Newtek snatched these two guys and had them improve their respective products for their forthcoming Video Toaster. The rest is history.

Jockomo
10-22-2007, 03:19 PM
Well there are some opinions here that I value and trust, so I'll stand corrected on it's usefulness. But still it would take a crowbar to pull me away from the Adobe's production suite. I have no problems with rendering as everything renders faster than realtime if it is needed to be rendered at all. But then again maybe I'm not working with some of the formats that you are.

As far as history goes, I'm afraid I gave up on the VT scene as soon as my one year old, $8,000 dongle for lightwave became useless (aka VT4000 on an Amiga 4000). That was a bitter experience, even if it wasn't necessarily Newtek's fault.

Lightwolf
10-22-2007, 04:14 PM
I don't know anything about SE but I hope the guys who worked on SE interface get involved in LW UI redesign.

I hope not. Seriously. It is just a bunch of PNGs scrambled together, and while it works fine for a video editor it would be a disaster for a 3D app. 0 user configurability (unless you want to completely paint a new GUI instead of re-arranging controls) and hell for third parties (plus you'd likely either get very simple third party GUIs - i.e. numeric values/sliders - or custom GUIs that look nothing like the host app).
Think Winamp and every third party GUI having a different skin.

GTK and QT (plus other like wxWidgets) are way different.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
10-22-2007, 04:18 PM
I have no problems with rendering as everything renders faster than realtime if it is needed to be rendered at all. But then again maybe I'm not working with some of the formats that you are.
Probably. I just use uncompressed formats and it brings PPro to its knees easily if you add a couple of layers (this is with a fast RAID). SE on the same machine is liking adding double the processing power... at least.

Then again, my partner is an AE fan (I'm more of a Fusion guys myself) - but he does curse more in projects than I do ;).

Cheers,
Mike

lardbros
10-22-2007, 04:22 PM
I've used Premiere ALOT in the past and recently have had nothing but slowness and trouble! A quick go on a mates speededit and i was BLOWN away. I'm buying that thing for sure!!! Its interface could be improved slightly in its appearance, but it works nicely and the real-time rendering on a dual-core machine is the mutts nuts. It's blazingly fast and has some real nice touches in it! One go on it sold it to me instantly... maybe Newtek should release a demo version VERY soon!

Danic101
10-23-2007, 10:58 AM
I think the More Products NewTek makes the better it is in the long run, More Products = More Money. I love SpeedEDIT, LightWave and TriCaster and am looking forward to LW Rendition

lardbros
10-23-2007, 11:05 AM
I really wouldn't get overly excited about rendition. The inbuilt support for 3ds in photoshop is appalling at best, unless im doing it an injustice? Our machine's at work are great and the performance of the 3d in Photoshop is gruesome!

meathead
10-23-2007, 12:47 PM
My only problem with Premiere Pro is that I stopped using it since I started using SpeedEdit. So its just sitting there taking up computer space.
If you are a LW user (or 3d app user in general), SE will make sense. It's just so straight forward.

The rest of the Adobe Video suite, like Photoshop and AE get used all the time by me.

Ztreem
10-24-2007, 03:07 AM
Open source owns the niche market for low priced easy to use software.


LOL! Low prices, yes! Easy to use, I don't think so, they have nothing in common. For example have you ever heard of anyone saying that blender is easy to use?

As for SpeedEdit, it's a really nice app and it's the only video editor I use now. Premiere has nothing I miss in SpeedEdit.

Matt
10-24-2007, 04:14 AM
Newtek has never been just about Lightwave.

I agree, and if it was, we might well be in a different place right now (i.e. using something else!)

Keep on innovating NT, stay hungry, stay foolish! :)

(Okay I nicked that last bit from Steve Jobs at his Stanford speech)

Elmar Moelzer
10-24-2007, 04:43 AM
From what I have heard, seen and read Speed Edit is a very capable piece of software. I have a VT4 here and VT- Edit (that Speed Edit is based on) is a very good Editor.
I would recommed to have a look at it, Jockomo, before you judge to quickly.

I think that NTs video department is actually doing very well in terms of sales, from what I have heard. It might even be doing better than the 3d- department at the moment, so I would say that it is definitely a wise idea of them to release another video software to the market.
All of NTs video products seem to have a lot in common, so I am very sure, they are able to make spin off products like these with comparably little development effort.
If NT makes more money from other products, they can invest more money into LW and that is a good thing.
I do also think that the Speed- Edit bundle that they have had is an excellent idea. I am sure many 3d- artists can make good use of an excellent Editing software like this.
My regards go to Andrew and his team in the video department for doing such a good job!
CU
Elmar

hrgiger
10-24-2007, 02:28 PM
You may want to look at it from a company's perspective, they are just like every other, out to make a profit and pay their employees. Newtek would be unwise to put all of their eggs into one basket(Lightwave 3D). I think it's good that they also offer their video products. Kind of goes hand in hand anyway. And has been pointed out above, they're a completely different group of developers so it's not like advancements on say SpeedEdit is taking anything away from Lightwave development.

Although to play devils advocate, I would like to see them grow their LW development team some. Not necessarily in number per se, but speciality. Get some hardcore dynamics people, or some hardcore animation people, people who would specialize on a particular element of Lightwave.

beverins
10-24-2007, 06:24 PM
<rant mode>

I think they should just plain ADVERTISE Lightwave.

Newtek has another Roadshow. Guess what it's selling. Tricaster Studio. Not that I think they shouldn't do that. I hope a lot of people buy Tricasters.

My point is that there hasn't been a Lightwave roadshow since... when Spline Extrude was announced as a feature, I believe. What version was that? I've paid attention to every show that has hit NYC from Newtek, and they've all been their video side since then.

I remember one they had at B&H 3 years ago. They advertised "See ALL (I repeat ALL) our products". 90% of the time was for the (as then) new Tricaster, and the (as then) new 3D Arsenal. There were about 25 people in the audience. When asked what they wanted to see, 20 of them raised their hand to know more about LIGHTWAVE.

Well, though the presenters were very friendly and personable, eager to help, they couldn't help us with our request. Why? Because aside from knowing how to run 3D Arsenal, none of them actually really knew what new features Lightwave had (I believe it was version 8.5 at the time). They did TRY to show us, but honestly that really, really sucked. Didn't go to the more recent B&H show in the Spring 07 (I believe?) because I knew it would be the same thing.

While I see that Lightwave has a roadmap, and the hard working people in charge of programming Lightwave are TRYING... it just seems to me like Newtek management are starting to treat Lightwave like a bit of a black sheep. I can see their commitment to the product in their Beta Program, no mistake - I see continued refinement - but I do not see any ads for Lightwave anymore, I see no roadshows... Siggraph in 07 seems to have some positive reviews, but really that's about it for exposure that I see.

So I have nothing against Speededit, in fact I hope they make Adobe and Apple look over their shoulder from time to time... I have nothing against the Tricaster or the VT - wonderful tools indeed. I think 3D Arsenal could be so much more, on the level of MoGraph by Maxon, but is a nice set of lscripts and scenes. I hope Rendition is something special. Just that in the *perception* of many interested in 3D, Lightwave has a growing perception as being something akin to Cararra or Bryce. Why is that? Because the NAME, the BRAND is not out there. Newtek have taken down the demo again... they don't have roadshows for Lightwave and Lightwave ONLY... the outward appearance is that Newtek are preferentially advertising the video product and not the 3D product. Newtek's commitment to improving the product is clear, but all the commitment doesn't mean much if people forget you're a player.

I mean, comon. I'm sure there are all sorts of "what they don't know will hurt them in the end, as you make your freelance art with Lightwave and beat them to the punch" comments, but I do find it rather frustrating when I meet people who are genuinely surprised the Lightwave is still around, and laugh off the suggestion that its still a player in the industry. Stupid and uninformed comments, granted, but frustrating nevertheless. And you know what these stupid people do? They talk. Their opinions ARE respected by others and so the MEME grows that Lightwave is a has-been.

This MEME translates into lost sales. The fear for lost sales is that eventually Lightwave loses its R&D money and has its finances reorganized towards stuff that IS advertised and DOES sell BECAUSE its advertised.

Well, whatever. A somewhat inflammatory rant. Take it as you will.

</endrant>

10-26-2007, 09:16 AM
I am new to LW and just got 9 but I sure wish Newtek would put some serious work into LW and its usability. As far as SE goes, I am pretty well married to FCP, I have SE but haven't even loaded it yet. I saw a preview when I went to check out a Tri-Caster Studio, which I hope to get one day, and I wasn't overly impressed with SE. I am sure it is good for simple edits, home movies and such but when it comes to FX and plug-ins, it seems to come up short.

Anyway, I hope to have more useability in LW in the future. It has a huge learning curve but also an amazing base of people willing to help, which is actually the real reason I went with LW.

I am new to 3D and working through some difficulties with endomorphs so my opinion on LW is probably somewhat skewed today.

-Kuhndog

cresshead
10-26-2007, 10:20 AM
ive just upgraded my other lightwave seat to 9 from 8.5 so i'll be getting speed edit to play with!...

spiffing!

Dexter2999
10-26-2007, 12:26 PM
Okay, so given a company has limited resources...

If Newtek had to choose between the developement and promotion of one of their products.

In order, which do you think they should choose?
1 Video Toaster
2 Lightwave
3 3d arsenal
4 SpeedEdit
5 Tricaster

and for the record the listed order is my opinion. (And i don't think they should have given up on the Calibar)

Titus
10-26-2007, 12:31 PM
and I wasn't overly impressed with SE. I am sure it is good for simple edits, home movies and such but when it comes to FX and plug-ins, it seems to come up short.

With SE you (yes, yourself) can create your own realtime transitions, this is hardly coming short.

When observing demographics for SE you discover many wedding videographers, people who need to edit fast and cheap.

cresshead
10-26-2007, 01:19 PM
SE seems ideal for going thru the production process of storyboards,layout, blocking, animatics, renders and then final comps for 3d content productions
made with the likes of lightwave, max, vue etc.

Dexter2999
10-26-2007, 01:48 PM
Oh and in my opinion, the current priority with the NewTek Products appears to be

1 Tricaster
2 SpeedEdit
3 Lightwave
4 3d Arsenal
5 VideoToaster

The original Tricaster I think was a four input system. This one seemed to be a logical market to go after those who don't need the 8 inputs of the VideoToaster. But when they increased the system up to a 6 input system it put it well within the price reach of the VT...well I don't see where that market is that much of difference between the four input and 8 input markets and it seems to be the stress of their marketing right now.

Honestly I post on a number of film making forums and I have read numerous posts about editing. I am the only person who ever even mentions SpeedEdit. I don't see NewTek cracking that market. FinalCut, PremierPro, even Vegas are sewing up the low end market. And those are the people who even bother to upgrade their software from Windows Moviemaker or iMovie.

I haven't seen SpeedEdit as a software requested/required on a single job listing.

SpeedEdit does fill a nice niche left since the demise of SpeedRazor (which I still have on my VT1) ,if you have need to speedy playback of Uncompressed video. However I do all my compositing in my editing suite. I edit, compositie, transcode, author DVD's all as part of my "pipeline." The package is designed to work together (much like other systems are packaging themselves.)

I haven't bothered learning SpeedRazor, because I really don't see a benefit in learning a second editing package outside of my current workflow.

I "could" do much of the work from my other system on my VT, but the learning curve to learn Aura to replace AVID FX (BORIS), SpeedRazor to replace AVID, and still having no audio editing doesn't seem productive.

The one area I hold out is in the realm of 3d. Lightwave will not be replaced by a watered down version of XSI in "Avid3D."

beverins
10-26-2007, 02:44 PM
Okay, so given a company has limited resources...

If Newtek had to choose between the developement and promotion of one of their products.

In order, which do you think they should choose?
1 Video Toaster
2 Lightwave
3 3d arsenal
4 SpeedEdit
5 Tricaster

and for the record the listed order is my opinion. (And i don't think they should have given up on the Calibar)

I'd rejigger it to
Lightwave
SpeedEdit
Tricaster
Video Toaster
3DArsenal

Of course this order would be, like, say... a Netflix Queue. LOL Just don't mess with the order too often.

And by appearances, the MARKETING seems to be
Tricaster
Speededit
Video toaster
Lightwave
3d arsenal

Andyjaggy
10-26-2007, 03:01 PM
I seem to remember hearing that the marketing team was undergoing alot of changes recently. I agree though they really need to step up the game on their marketing of Lightwave.

iconoclasty
10-27-2007, 09:03 AM
As with everything NT makes.. We need a SpeedEdit demo!

cresshead
10-28-2007, 09:26 AM
or a in depth video on just what speed edit can do against adobe prem, final cut, avid and sony vegas apps.
ie: what has speed edit got that they don't have?

Titus
10-28-2007, 09:52 AM
or a in depth video on just what speed edit can do against adobe prem, final cut, avid and sony vegas apps.
ie: what has speed edit got that they don't have?

It has "speed" on the name :D.

digital verve
10-29-2007, 03:51 AM
I don't know why NewTek could not have had a trial/demo released. I don't buy unless I can try. So I upgraded Premiere Pro instead and NewTek lost a potential customer. All software vendors can talk up their products, but only when you can test it out can you be certain if its up to the job you would use it for.

cresshead
11-02-2007, 11:52 AM
how about lightwve AND speed edit!

arrived today!

http://www.cresshead.com/wip_wait/speed_edit_and_lw9.jpg

now have 2 seats of lw at version 9!:thumbsup: :lwicon: :newtek: :seicon:

Titus
11-02-2007, 12:04 PM
Congrats. It was a bargain!

Dexter2999
11-02-2007, 02:50 PM
I went to the SpeedEdit demo Saturday in Orlando.
What I noticed that SpeedEdit has that my AVID doesn't is the ability to play back a clip from a folder without "importing" the footage which means transcoding it to a codec the AVID will play nice with.

It will play back uncompressed RTV files generated by Lightwave which is the single reason I would like to have a copy on my LightWave machine.

He did a trick where he applied a dissolve to all clips on the timeline that I'm not saying AVID can't do, but I don't know how.

Much of the "razz-ma-tazz" was the storyboard edit mode...but AVID has that. I can click and watch the frame mode play forward or backward in my bins. I can arrange the clips left to right and drag them to my timeline and they are arranged properly.

I am also trying to figure out how to simulate the "inheirit" function. He updated a clip with another one and transfered the IN and OUT to the new clip with a single click.

I didn't catch if his project was auto-updating or if he was hitting another key. On my AVID when I rearrange the clips I have to clear the time line before I drag them over again. So he may have been doing it faster.

It is cheaper than AVID software....but it isn't likely to get you as many jobs as knowing a more popular program like AVID or FinalCut will.

It does have SPEED in the name as previously pointed out. Maybe the next version will have cool letters after the name like RX or something then it will be really cool. ;)

Lightwolf
11-02-2007, 03:11 PM
Much of the "razz-ma-tazz" was the storyboard edit mode...but AVID has that. I can click and watch the frame mode play forward or backward in my bins. I can arrange the clips left to right and drag them to my timeline and they are arranged properly.
Not quite the same thing. In SE the storyboard mode is just another way to view the existing timeline.
If you change one you change the other.


I didn't catch if his project was auto-updating or if he was hitting another key. On my AVID when I rearrange the clips I have to clear the time line before I drag them over again. So he may have been doing it faster.

See above, the storyboard is the timeline (you can also have two views of the same timline open at the same time btw, which is nice).

I certainly is no Avid.. but the target group is quite different as well.

Cheers,
Mike