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View Full Version : Newtek we are going to loose this train!



ben martin
10-18-2007, 07:01 PM
Look what FREE applications can do regarding CA animation!

Newtek… better to start think about a decent Lightwave CA solution real fast or we all (users) are going to loose this train!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AZRYJC9RV8

RudySchneider
10-18-2007, 07:06 PM
Old news, Ben; it's already been brought up:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62730&page=4&highlight=Puppeteer

meathead
10-18-2007, 07:13 PM
Do you really want this kinda setup?

This is not impressive ca imo. For free it's good, but there are numerous examples of better ca around here done with LW.

DAZ studio puppeteer has been posted here before btw.

And a major discussion on ca in LW has been discussed to death too:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61458

ben martin
10-18-2007, 07:17 PM
Old news, Ben; it's already been brought up:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62730&page=4&highlight=Puppeteer
Upps,

I was away for a while for filming and I’m now trying to catch up the news. :o
I just received this DAZ e-mail talking about DAZ|Studio.

Anyway, it’s a great idea and very simple to set up animations or facial expressions!
I'm impressed!

ben martin
10-18-2007, 07:30 PM
Do you really want this kinda setup?

This is not impressive ca imo. For free it's good, but there are numerous examples of better ca around here done with LW.

DAZ studio puppeteer has been posted here before btw.

And a major discussion on ca in LW has been discussed to death too:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61458
Well, I tried IKB (and still trying).
I checked Maestro demo and ended using Kaydara (Motion Builder) 5.5 (Lightwave FBX) to do CA.

Till today and since LW v7.5 that I saw nothing really powerful regarding Lightwave CA but like you said... this was already stressed over and over for several development cycles, yet, we are pretty much at the same regarding Lightwave CA.

Let’s not beat this dead horse anymore!
I’m already convinced that it’s a complete lost case.
I really don’t believe that Newtek is finally planning to do something real smart about this.

ColinCohen
10-18-2007, 07:51 PM
Funny, I created a prototype of this plugin for DAZ a few years back. I never knew they finished it until just now.

By the way, they were inspired to create it after seeing Joytrol, a lw plugin.

meathead
10-18-2007, 08:04 PM
Well, I tried IKB (and still trying).
I checked Maestro demo and ended using Kaydara (Motion Builder) 5.5 (Lightwave FBX) to do CA.
Till today and since LW v7.5 that I saw nothing really powerful regarding Lightwave CA but like you said... this was already stressed over and over for several development cycles, yet, we are pretty much at the same regarding Lightwave CA.
Letís not beat this dead horse anymore!
Iím already convinced that itís a complete lost case.
I really donít believe that Newtek is finally planning to do something real smart about this.

You can do all this with nulls, easily. TD4 has great plugins that show you how to do it fast.
It's not that impressive, really.

I think some of you guys are determined to hate CA in LW.

It's hard to learn a new system, as we get older, learning gets harder. And especially after you have learned another system like Maya. LW has always danced to a diff drum beat. Buy some Kurv tutes and learn IK, and let the hate go.

meathead
10-18-2007, 08:27 PM
Something tells me, this was done very much in LW by Mr. Proton. The ca is excellent.

http://www.tofutheveganzombie.com/movie

Sensei
10-19-2007, 12:18 AM
NewtekÖ better to start think about a decent Lightwave CA solution real fast or we all (users) are going to loose this train!


I really enjoyed watching this movie..
Looks like fun to use and write.. ;)

evenflcw
10-19-2007, 03:16 AM
Something tells me, this was done very much in LW by Mr. Proton. The ca is excellent.

http://www.tofutheveganzombie.com/movie

The story and characters are cool, the models are nice and texturing, lighting and rendering is fine. The characters do move but this definitely is not what I would characterize as excellent CA. And it was not made solely by Proton. A whole bunch of people worked on it.

Buying a DVD, learning every tool in LW and being a CA genius is not a guarantee that you'll ever be able to do great CA in LW. Most likely those three thing are more likely to push you away from LW to do great CA elsewhere.

ben martin
10-19-2007, 03:58 AM
You can do all this with nulls, easily. TD4 has great plugins that show you how to do it fast.

I already bought the T4D tools. :)
It's a help indeed but not the CA system a studio needs!
More, it was TD4 (and others) that cared and did something to improve Lightwave CA workflow not Newtek anyway! :thumbsdow


I think some of you guys are determined to hate CA in LW. .
Don't understand it like that!
We (Lightwavers) only wish a compact/practical and "behave like expected" CA tool.


[It's hard to learn a new system, as we get older, learning gets harder. And especially after you have learned another system like Maya. LW has always danced to a diff drum beat. Buy some Kurv tutes and learn IK, and let the hate go.
I wish it could be that simple, but even, don't you think it's odd to recommend people to turn to external tuts and tools resources to learn and achieve simpler and pratical CA using Lightwave?
By the way IK it's a small part of CA. Actually there are much more beyond IK/FK (or IKB).
Like I said, it's not about hate it's all about frustration seeing that FREE tools developers care more to bring some old/new methods to CA when we realize that Newtek still doing nothing about CA! :thumbsdow

Sure!
Any decent 3D software can deliver results but the big difference is the effort, time, hacks and headaches that each one brings to the user.
Like someone once said: "The best software is the one that delivers the same result with less mouse clicks!" :bowdown:

Bt the way I use Lightwave since early 80's, not that I know all about it (I don't) because my base formation was and stills concept designer and modeler but like all Lightwavers along the years we tend to become generalists.

I always stated that Lightwave is one of the best tools in the market (even for CA like I understood it back then) and I still do (else I long quited from using it) but now, that I started to need and use CA... upps... I realize that people that complain for years before me (the ones, that once I told they probably were wrong) may, after all, have a point! :twak:

Anyway!
What do we all want?
A better Lightwave all the way, with a good CA system so we all can continue to use it for many years from now.

cresshead
10-19-2007, 04:19 AM
for lw to put it's self back on the radar for character animation it needs something along the lines of character studio or c.a.t or puppetshop or motion builder or automatron...not just faster bones and simpler set up of ik and deformation lattices.

with the slow visible progress to 9.4+ i think they're hard at work right now...hope they are cooking up something to shout about and not just a simple basic upgrade to what we have right now.

colkai
10-19-2007, 05:31 AM
with the slow visible progress to 9.4+ i think they're hard at work right now...hope they are cooking up something to shout about and not just a simple basic upgrade to what we have right now.
Right there with you on that one. :thumbsup:

meathead
10-19-2007, 12:14 PM
:oye:
The story and characters are cool, the models are nice and texturing, lighting and rendering is fine. The characters do move but this definitely is not what I would characterize as excellent CA. And it was not made solely by Proton. A whole bunch of people worked on it....

The storyline is excellent (an opinion I know). It is excellent ca (another opinion); you have to remember to consider its a cartoon, with a target audience being children (or old male animators). Spot on human realism is not the goal, nor should it be. He a zombie, with tofu for a brain?!!?




I already bought the T4D tools. :)
It's a help indeed but not the CA system a studio needs!
More, it was TD4 (and others) that cared and did something to improve Lightwave CA workflow not Newtek anyway! :thumbsdow

I was refering to the joy null aspect.



We (Lightwavers) only wish a compact/practical and "behave like expected" CA tool

:agree:


I wish it could be that simple, but even, don't you think it's odd to recommend people to turn to external tuts and tools resources to learn and achieve simpler and pratical CA using Lightwave?
By the way IK it's a small part of CA. Actually there are much more beyond IK/FK (or IKB).Like I said, it's not about hate it's all about frustration seeing that FREE tools developers care more to bring some old/new methods to CA when we realize that Newtek still doing nothing about CA! :thumbsdow

I am not the greatest ca artist, but trying. My clients are not looking for that kinda stuff, so I being ignorant here, would refer back to the other thread referenced early, about IK, FX or IKB.
LW has had one of the worst manuals forever, but fortunately, it also has some of the best -external - support. Many tutes and learning info can be found online or in books, mostly for free. A fellow animator friend of mine, a avid 3dmax user, has pointed it out to me many times before. Recently he pointed out the high level of support for going between zbrush and LW, something he thought lacked for going thru max and zbrush. This may have changed with zb 3.1, I am very ignorant when it comes to max matters.


Any decent 3D software can deliver results but the big difference is the effort, time, hacks and headaches that each one brings to the user.Like someone once said: "The best software is the one that delivers the same result with less mouse clicks!" :bowdown:

:agree: Rigging for example is too hard and time consuming, but there ARE examples of well ca to be found with LW.


Bt the way I use Lightwave since early 80's, not that I know all about it (I don't) because my base formation was and stills concept designer and modeler but like all Lightwavers along the years we tend to become generalists. I always stated that Lightwave is one of the best tools in the market (even for CA like I understood it back then) and I still do (else I long quited from using it) but now, that I started to need and use CA... upps... I realize that people that complain for years before me (the ones, that once I told they probably were wrong) may, after all, have a point! :twak: Anyway! What do we all want? A better Lightwave all the way, with a good CA system so we all can continue to use it for many years from now.

:agree: Its just played out all over here, even on cgtalks forums. Like reading the religious (3dbrush) threads, it was intriguing at first, but now... :oye:

adamredwoods
10-19-2007, 05:10 PM
Hi,

I'm working on a plugin that will help with Lightwave's Character Animation. Trouble is, I had to rewrite their rotation system using quaternions since Lightwave was not storing matrix values that are needed for a robust system.

AND I had to write plugins that needed interfacing to other plugins b/c Lightwave does not allow their built-in plugins to communicate or be communicated with one another.

So, Lightwave would have to start at some core issues before they can move forward with an efficient system to do character animation.

And the biggest core issue is to create a robust UNDO. No exceptions.


...As for the DAZ puppeteer vid, it's very innovative, but it's more for animation timing. I don't see how it makes building poses any easier, unless, you use Poser with it (which is what they want you to buy).

bobakabob
10-19-2007, 05:54 PM
Hi,

I'm working on a plugin that will help with Lightwave's Character Animation. Trouble is, I had to rewrite their rotation system using quaternions since Lightwave was not storing matrix values that are needed for a robust system.

AND I had to write plugins that needed interfacing to other plugins b/c Lightwave does not allow their built-in plugins to communicate or be communicated with one another.

So, Lightwave would have to start at some core issues before they can move forward with an efficient system to do character animation.

And the biggest core issue is to create a robust UNDO. No exceptions.


...As for the DAZ puppeteer vid, it's very innovative, but it's more for animation timing. I don't see how it makes building poses any easier, unless, you use Poser with it (which is what they want you to buy).

Hi Adam,

Any insight into what you're planning to do? Sounds interesting :)

adamredwoods
10-19-2007, 06:30 PM
You can see an early demo in my signature below. I hope to have another, more inspiring demo, as soon as I can.

In short:
It's a rigging plugin that allows you to select bones, and assign a control to the selected bones. It automates the setup of the null, the plugins, and the limits set to the bones. It can distinguish multiple chains, so you can select 10 chains and set them as IK instantly.

Additionally it offers a few extra tools to help increase the efficiency of testing and building a rig. And it improves a few large problems in the 'internals' of Lightwave, such as dynamic parenting, IK/FK switching, and FK targeting.

ben martin
10-20-2007, 05:33 AM
...As for the DAZ puppeteer vid, it's very innovative, but it's more for animation timing. I don't see how it makes building poses any easier, unless, you use Poser with it (which is what they want you to buy).
Well, in this I must disagree with you!
You see, puppeteer comes fully integrated in DAZ|Studio 1.7.1.9 and it is completely free.

In fact DAZ is trying to present a new solution to Poser users offering DAZ|Studio for free (like I see it) and let me tell you… it offers a better and intuitive interface than Poser beside a myriad of new a very useful tools.

About your plug-in… I saw your Beta Demo video.
It looks promising but the problem remains.
Lightwave slow deformation engine stills there slowing down all the process.
If they don’t solve this it won’t matter what CA system they (or users) can present.
We still all condemned! :devil: