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View Full Version : Finally a replacement for Reelmotion is on it's way !!!



jasonazure
10-12-2007, 02:29 AM
After using Reelmotion a number of years ago to produce some vehicle animations for use in Lightwave, I couldn't believe it when the company who produced it sold it off, and development was stopped!!!

It wasn't too bad until LW8 when the plugins for importing the vehicle motion broke due to SDK changes.

Now every time I get a job that requires realistic vehicle motion in it I have to make it simpler than the client wants (flat ground plane, no speedbumps etc.) or I spend hours faking suspension bounce only to have the client change something after a viewing !!!!!!

I really couldn't believe, with the amount of vehicle animation in use today, from accident sims to car adverts that this hole has been left in the plugin marketplace for so long. Then I realised it hasn't for users of other software :grumpy: ! 3DS Max users are spoilt for choice with 'Reactor' and 'Vehicle Simulator' and '4-Wheeler' and probably others I haven't found.

Well, yesterday after watching the sample videos on the Craft Animations site www.craftanimations.com (http://www.craftanimations.com) and thinking why the hell do us Lightwave users not have something like this, I decided to email them and ask if they were going to port their simulators over to Lightwave...........
......... They answered YES :boogiedow


The only downside is they won't be releasing anything until after Siggraph next year 8~

Otterman
10-12-2007, 03:00 AM
This is good news for me! Im having to fudge stuff like suspension, steering, tire deformation etc and its a real ball ache!

Who do i need to shag to get it now?

jasonazure
10-12-2007, 03:07 AM
I don't know who you have to shag, but I emailed them and asked to be put on any Beta test programmes they might undertake !!

Otterman
10-12-2007, 03:19 AM
Good idea u shameless tart!

Ztreem
10-12-2007, 03:51 AM
This looks like a super plugin and it's developed here in Sweden as well, cool. :)

jasonazure
10-12-2007, 03:59 AM
Exactly!

The extra wheels and trailer add-ons will be a godsend too as Reelmotion could have extra wheels, but not articulated trailers. I had to do a 'bendy-bus' animation a few years back and it had to be completely hand animated. It took weeks and still looked a little 'off' if you know what I mean?

SplineGod
10-12-2007, 12:04 PM
Doing things like a train, bendy bus etc arent difficult to do in LW. Heres an example which took just a few minutes to setup. It uses no expressions, motion modifiers etc.
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/examples/roller_coaster.mov

Ztreem
10-12-2007, 12:42 PM
Doing things like a train, bendy bus etc arent difficult to do in LW. Heres an example which took just a few minutes to setup. It uses no expressions, motion modifiers etc.
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/examples/roller_coaster.mov

It depends of how realistic it has to be, with close up movements on cars, tanks or trucks that have to look realistic it can be quite hard to setup. Not impossible but hard.

evenflcw
10-12-2007, 01:34 PM
It uses no expressions, motion modifiers etc.

Not even a displacement/fx plugin!?

And you could simulate a car with wheels on springs and the effect of momentum and gravity using this technique? Or would you have to keyframe the dynamics of such a motion?

wp_capozzi
10-12-2007, 02:22 PM
Interesting! I've been trying to sort out some techniques for exactly this (trains on tracks, and car suspensions on bumpy roads). Where can I find out more about existing techniques?

Thanks,
Bill C.

Bog
10-13-2007, 04:41 AM
Very swish - just sent 'em an email asking for details, so they know I care. Why not do the same? Might speed up their release schedule...

jasonazure
10-13-2007, 10:02 AM
Doing things like a train, bendy bus etc arent difficult to do in LW. Heres an example which took just a few minutes to setup. It uses no expressions, motion modifiers etc.
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/examples/roller_coaster.mov

That's not quite the same thing as true vehicle dynamics is it?

The bending and moving of the bus I did was not the difficult part, what was difficult was getting realistic suspension bounce and damping, especially over bumpy variable terrain, which was in some cases an imported DXF.

Watch the videos on the Craft Animations website and then come back and tell me it isn't difficult to do in Lightwave!!!

evenflcw
10-17-2007, 02:33 AM
It uses no expressions, motion modifiers etc.

Not even a displacement/fx plugin!?

*COUGH COUGH*

Just a yes or no would do. Or any answer really. Please? Just can't figure out how it could be done otherwise.

SplineGod
10-17-2007, 02:41 AM
That's not quite the same thing as true vehicle dynamics is it?

The bending and moving of the bus I did was not the difficult part, what was difficult was getting realistic suspension bounce and damping, especially over bumpy variable terrain, which was in some cases an imported DXF.

Watch the videos on the Craft Animations website and then come back and tell me it isn't difficult to do in Lightwave!!!

If I were going to be interested in "TRUE" vehicle dynamics Id go get a true simulation package. Id use LW to get something that has to look a certain way regardless of whether or not the underlying physics is accurate or not. :)

Evenflow,
The technique I used to do this is using deformations rather then the much more tedious use of motion modifiers or expressions :)

jasonazure
11-23-2007, 03:21 AM
If I were going to be interested in "TRUE" vehicle dynamics Id go get a true simulation package. Id use LW to get something that has to look a certain way regardless of whether or not the underlying physics is accurate or not. :)

A "true" simulation package is what this thread was all about ! A replacement for the now defunct Reelmotion!!!

Do you know of any other simulation packages that work with Lightwave? If not then please go and sell your training elsewhere!

ben martin
11-23-2007, 03:36 AM
Do you know of any other simulation packages that work with Lightwave? If not then please go and sell your training elsewhere!

Jezzz!!!
He is only trying to help... you should show a little more respect for this community!

People like you, make members just wodering "Why bother to reply and help?"
I'm not Larry (SplineGod) advocate or whatever, but this kind of attitudes pisse me off.
Next time if you need help go and buy a book or 3DMAX and don't bore people around!

scratch33
11-23-2007, 03:54 AM
A "true" simulation package is what this thread was all about ! A replacement for the now defunct Reelmotion!!!

Do you know of any other simulation packages that work with Lightwave? If not then please go and sell your training elsewhere!

I don't understand this kind of reply. incredible.:thumbsdow :twak:

evenflcw
11-23-2007, 09:01 AM
Jezzz!!!
He is only trying to help...

Cmon, even though I think Jasons comment was abit harsh, you are being abit naive. If you think providing video shots without explanation is an attempt to help (for free) rather than advertise and promote training (for profit)? I guess you also think McDonalds are "ONLY" trying to feed people? You need a reality check!

It's also beside the point that Splinegod doesn't always act this way and genuinely does provide alot of (free) assistance in many other threads in various fora and valuable input in the occasional advanced discussion. He is an experienced lightwaver and one of the few 3rd parties that provides training for LW. Making him a valuable asset to the community as there are so few pf those. But imho you cannot right a wrong by being a "good guy" just some of the time.

I think abit of critism towards those who do abuse other peoples threads for their own ends is good, whether the it's about advertising for profit, criticizing other peoples work too harshly for malice (not Splinegod) or otherwise. If anyone wants to raise awareness and hawk their products the least they could do is create their own threads. This forum also has a classified section where they could offer their products or submit offers in threads that have explicitly invited tenders (by being posted in the classified section). If Splinegod would have created a new thread in various sections of the forum for every post similar to his first in this one I don't think you would consider Jasons (and others) comments that unfair. You'd might even be more inclined to consider Splinegod a spammer instead (albeit on topic).

Also, before the reprimand, let me say that people aren't expecting Splinegod to give away knowledge for free that he otherwise sells. It's rather that people who do ask for help usually appeal to and trust people to do so out of their kindness. Those who post for other reasons betray that trust. Sure, seeing that something can be done is helpful, but only to those who can figure out how it was set up will be helped, the rest will just be more frustrated.

I definitly don't want the people who I consider misuse other peoples threads from time to time to never post. But I wouldn't mind if they changed their ways abit.


People like you, make members just wodering "Why bother to reply and help?"
I'm not Larry (SplineGod) advocate or whatever, but this kind of attitudes pisse me off.
Next time if you need help go and buy a book or 3DMAX and don't bore people around!

And why bother to reply when all your doing is advertising and not really helping?

ben martin
11-23-2007, 10:23 AM
And why bother to reply when all your doing is advertising and not really helping?
Is this a question?
Should I reply since it has nothing to do with the thread?
(like your reply also doesn't)

Anyway, I guess good manners are always welcome anywhere!

Every thread is a public "place" it's not someone's private home!
If I was at "jasonazure" home, I'll shut-up... because he rules inside his place but the fact is that he is in a public "place" requesting help from people around. That people expects (minimum) a civilized behavior: respect!

When I start a thread I only start it, I don't own it, it is a dynamic thing that has self-life!

And my reply was all about that, not SplineGod or any other person!
If you feel he his right... then he is right (In your own point of view of course) but to me, it caused a bad impression.
It's not what you have to say… it's like you say it!

SplineGod
11-23-2007, 04:38 PM
Evenflcw,
What is the difference between offering help in the form of free advice or a paid tutorial, whether someone elses training or my own? I would say that the vast majority of the time I offer free help when I can. If I dont its usually because its something I cover on a DVD that other people have paid for and Im not going to devalue what they paid for.

Also my response was directed at Jasons statement that he had to animate a bendy bus by hand a few years ago and had to do it by hand. I was simply showing that there are easier ways to do that without having to do it by hand which that video demonstrated. Its also possible to look at that video and determine if something like that would or wouldnt be helpful and go from there.

Regardless of all this theres NEVER an excuse to behave badly or defend bad behavior.

Cageman
11-24-2007, 01:45 AM
After using Reelmotion a number of years ago to produce some vehicle animations for use in Lightwave, I couldn't believe it when the company who produced it sold it off, and development was stopped!!!

It wasn't too bad until LW8 when the plugins for importing the vehicle motion broke due to SDK changes.

Uhm? I've successfully used LW8.5 with ReelMotion...

EDIT: Or should I say, successfully using... :) (almost every day) :)

jasonazure
11-24-2007, 03:42 AM
I feel I had better apologise after reading the above. I don't want to become the next Oddity!!!!

I didn't mean to come across so harshly, but I do feel that Splinegods posting in this thread was a bit 'off subject'. Had I been talking about rollercoasters or trains or something like that I could see his point in posting what he did.

I think what really prompted my response was "If I were going to be interested in "TRUE" vehicle dynamics Id go get a true simulation package. Id use LW to get something that has to look a certain way regardless of whether or not the underlying physics is accurate or not." because that's exactly what this thread was about, you could almost read that comment as "Realistic vehicle animation in Lightwave? Don't bother!"

Ben, whilst I respect your right to have a go at me, your comment "Next time if you need help go and buy a book or 3DMAX and don't bore people around!" is a bit off the mark as I wasn't actually asking for help, I was just informing the community that there might be a new vehicle simulation plug-in on the way! (I also wouldn't touch 3DMAX with a barge-pole, especially as my copy of XSI Essentials will be arriving soon :D - Vehicle simulation included!! :bowdown: )

Finally, Cageman ........ HOW? !!!!! I have tried and tried, and now Reelmotion itself won't work with any of my newer graphics cards - I get 1fps at best !!!!

SplineGod
11-24-2007, 04:02 AM
Jason,
I dont think my response was anymore off topic then your statement where you said:

The extra wheels and trailer add-ons will be a godsend too as Reelmotion could have extra wheels, but not articulated trailers. I had to do a 'bendy-bus' animation a few years back and it had to be completely hand animated. It took weeks and still looked a little 'off' if you know what I mean?

My response was in response to your statement. :)
What I was showing was articulated trailers that didnt have to be hand animated or use expressions/motion modifiers.

ben martin
11-24-2007, 04:17 AM
Ben, whilst I respect your right to have a go at me, your comment "Next time if you need help go and buy a book or 3DMAX and don't bore people around!" is a bit off the mark as I wasn't actually asking for help, I was just informing the community that there might be a new vehicle simulation plug-in on the way! (I also wouldn't touch 3DMAX with a barge-pole, especially as my copy of XSI Essentials will be arriving soon :D - Vehicle simulation included!! :bowdown: )
That's what I mean... this is the correct way to state and defend a point of view!

Yes, maybe I also had a bad reaction and since you are showing to be a humble person to apologize for your behavior, I also apologize for mine!

We are humans after all and at some points we can loose self-control (wish is understandable but not desirable).
So, let's move over this and fight the good fight, that is:
Show to Newtek and people / users that we care about Lightwave. :)

Peace. Cheers!

jasonazure
11-24-2007, 04:18 AM
SplineGod - I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one!

My Idea of how an articulated trailer works is obviously different to yours. For example, if the cab turns sharply, the trailer wheels will not follow the same path as the cab, they will cut the corner. Can your technique do that? I eventually had to write a motion plug-in to create accurate articulated motion, based on IK mathematics when another 'bus job' came along.

SplineGod
11-24-2007, 04:27 AM
Jason as you know its difficult to impossible to take a very general statement such as you made and throw out a possible solution that may work unless far more specfic information was applied. This is why I showed that video. Its possible to take a look, see if its possible maybe or ask questions. Its also possible to modify what I did to better fit any more specific information you might have provided. :)

Cageman
11-24-2007, 04:30 AM
Finally, Cageman ........ HOW? !!!!! I have tried and tried, and now Reelmotion itself won't work with any of my newer graphics cards - I get 1fps at best !!!!

Well, I don't know if I have done something special in regards of LW. I've just added the plugins provided with ReelMotion and just open the exported motion directly into Layout (they are not showing as a scenefile though). This gives you a set of nulls that represents the chassi and the wheels. Don't know if there are other ways to import ReelMotion stuff into LW?

As to ReelMotion itself; running it on a low spec PC (in our case a PIII 733MHz) seems to solve the problem of "old age app" syndrome on new computers. Don't remember the gfx-card though... But it manages 30 FPS without problems.

lesterfoster
11-24-2007, 09:20 PM
What ever happened to SimLW..? (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69662&highlight=Simlw) Is it still in development?

evenflcw
11-26-2007, 11:07 AM
This thread is seemingly almost on topic again, but I like the participants and the discussion we're having. So please excuse... Perhaps it should have it's own thread and maybe even a poll.


Every thread is a public "place" it's not someone's private home!
I'll shut-up... because he rules inside his place but the fact is that he is in a public "place" requesting help from people around.There isn't only private and public spaces to consider. Yes, I agree that this thread is in what could be considered a public space, but one could also argue that it is within Jasons (and everyone other private person contributing to the thread) "personal territory" (also refered to as personal space http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_space; imho territory is a better word; sorry for the questionable link). In real life this personal territory is respected by every person (more or less) and by most commercial companies. We live in a highly commercialized world but most companies shows some basic respect (unless someone sold us out). We are not commonly harassed on the street, in the café drinking tea with our friends etc. If we do get harassed, we usually get annoyed, and if the cafés personel/owner sees it, they ususally get rid of the offender. So if real life ethics should apply online, and we consider a café to be somewhat comparable to a forum online, we should not have to be harassed by the same type of parties here either.


Evenflcw,
What is the difference between offering help in the form of free advice or a paid tutorial, whether someone elses training or my own?First see my answer to Ben above.

The difference with most everyone else participating in this thread and on this forum and you (when you are acting the way you did in this thread) is that they are private persons and you are not. Your acting as part of a commercial company/venture. These two different groups have different interests in participating. The private persons mainly just want to help (it's hard to imagine any other motive), the commercial companies mainly want to make a buck but probably also want to help abit too (they are run by people after all).

There isn't anything directly wrong with wanting to make a buck out of helping. It's not the fact that you do it, it's rather how you do it. As the answer above suggests you might be invading the private territory of every private person participating in the thread. Not everyone of us would like to see ads in our discussions or discussions we participate in. It's seems that atleast myself and Jason(?) feel this way. And very likely others have felt the same when you and others have done the similar things in other threads. Most of us come here to socialize with our peers, not to be subjected with (hidden) advertisement.

Imho, the least commercial parties could do is make an ad look like an ad (,this is regulated by law in many countries for a reason,) rather than just a very compact post made in a hurry. Ie state that the post is an ad in the first place so no one is confused and everyone knows beforehand that further inquiry will require payment. Those who are interested may contact you directly instead of being tricked into asking you to post the next bit of your ad, hoping you might actually disclose what the first post was about (which anyone without the commercial interest would've done for free, time permitting). Your intentions might not be so devious, but it certainly seems that way sometimes. If someone would ask for more information about your trainign and you would answer, I wouldn't shoot either of you. Because with this scheme atleast everyone would know the premise in advance and noone should end up feeling like a sucker. Imho, this would be more fair to both parties than how things are done today.


Regardless of all this theres NEVER an excuse to behave badly or defend bad behavior.I agree on the behave badly part. There are more elegant ways to get your opinions across. However, if several people join in to defend the bad behavior, or rather what caused them, that might be a sign something is actually wrong.

Andrew March
11-26-2007, 11:32 AM
Oh cool, another ***** fight!

cresshead
11-26-2007, 11:53 AM
i must say the amount of grumpy posts moaning about nr everything is so inline with the 'good will to all men' of the season we're entering!

:rolleyes:


come on now...group hug!:D :stumped: :screwy:

or...should i join in???

:cursin: :mad: :2guns: :hammer:

:lol:

cats rule!

:cat:

Greenlaw
11-26-2007, 12:15 PM
Uhm? I've successfully used LW8.5 with ReelMotion...

EDIT: Or should I say, successfully using... :) (almost every day) :)

We still use Reel Motion here too. Well, occasionally anyway. The last job was about a year ago to simulate some crazy Ferrari driving shots and it worked out great, despite the fact that we always find it really hard to control a high speed vehicle on a track in Reel Motion--but it's probably really hard in the real world too. For this job we learned that it helps to have an animator on the crew who can drive a race car, which, luckily, we did at the time. :)

DRG

SplineGod
11-26-2007, 01:24 PM
Evenflcw,
I think youve seen too many conspiracy movies. These forums are not in any way someones personal domain. They are owned and operated by Newtek and we are all here at their pleasure, period. The forums are public yet with guidelines they implement and enforce.
When youre outside in public youre not free from anyones advertising and you have very little to no personal space except where someone assaults you directly. When you sit there at that cafe you see advertising and hear it all around you. You see it on busses, buildings, magazines, radios, TV etc etc.
You have to either not leave your home or choose to ignore it.
On the forums here its no secret to most people that i produce DVDs that teach and support LW. Theres nothing devious about it except in your mind. My response to Jason was specifically regarding his statement about something he tried to do that he felt took him a long time to do. Nothing devious there and no hiddgen agenda. The vast majority of the time on here or any forum I try to provide free information to help people when I can. Its quite possible that any help whether free or not is of some use to someone which is their choice to determine. Somehow I think casually mentioning a possible commercial solution is better then beating a drum. :)

dingebre
11-26-2007, 08:33 PM
After using Reelmotion a number of years ago to produce some vehicle animations for use in Lightwave, I couldn't believe it when the company who produced it sold it off, and development was stopped!!!

deleted...

The only downside is they won't be releasing anything until after Siggraph next year 8~


Impact by Dynamic Realitites can be used to do vehicle simulations, but takes a bit of work to setup. It is a very nice general purpose physics engine that does a good job with multiple interacting objects, even articulated ones.

http://www.dynamic-realities.com/

Accident simulation is really non-trivial and there is not a plugin of which I'm aware (except possibly for Chrono, a plugin for RealSoft 3D) that is capable of accurately allowing a scientific analysis to be done. A plugin like Craft Animations sells works great for a general simulation where an accurate match to specific physical evidence or facts isn't required.

That said, Craft Animations plugins look extremely useful for many tasks involving vehicle dynamics.