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AndrewShpagin
10-11-2007, 02:53 AM
I want to implement LWO import/export in 3D-Brush (www.3d-brush.com) so I want to ask several questions:

1) I have read the specification of LWO and I see that every face have a smoothing group. Is it like in 3D-Max (32-bit mask) or it is simply index of smoothing group? In this case, is it possible to create objects with smoothing like on the picture below?

2) Can someone send me ( [email protected] )some example of simple LWO file with several objects, several smoothing groups,UV-mapping, several textures/materials (for example two cubes or something like this)?

Thanks!

Dodgy
10-11-2007, 03:25 AM
Cool :)

Smoothing in LW is based on an angle limit between polygons on a per surface basis. For example, a surface might have a Smoothing Limit of 30, so any adjoining polys belonging to that surface which have an angle of more than 30 degrees between them with have a sharp edge, whereas polys with less than 30 degrees difference will have a phong edge interpolation.

AndrewShpagin
10-11-2007, 03:33 AM
Thank you!

So the smoothing group attribute is not used in LW (or not commonly used)?

RedBull
10-11-2007, 03:39 AM
Wow, Cool indeed.... Thanks for listening and taking implementing such a feature so quickly.... Look forward to using 3D-Brush much more.

If you need any real information than what is contained in the documentation, don't hesitate to email the LW-P mailing list, as it's more commonly visited by LW programming elite, such as Jarno and Ernie, who know the .LWO standard fairly well. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/lw-plugin/

I will send you out an assortment of objects as you requested, ASAP.
(It's unfortunate that once again Newtek seem to not like having Demo version for download)

Edit: A Smoothing value is quite commonly used in Lightwave..

Dodgy
10-11-2007, 04:03 AM
Wow, having played with it, I think I'm going to have to purchase it.... And I own zbrush 3 already!

AndrewShpagin
10-11-2007, 04:17 AM
Thank you! I love LW community! :)

KillMe
10-11-2007, 06:46 AM
=/ would be seriously tempted to buy that too but =/ in the process of about to upgrade my computer and since it is locked to the computer you register on it look slike i will probally miss the discount pricing=/

AndrewShpagin
10-11-2007, 06:54 AM
If you will change or upgrade the computer you can simply send new Hadrware ID to support and we will send the new serial to you without any additional payment.

Kryos
10-11-2007, 09:38 AM
Now that's customer support. I honestly wish more people would do that. I have a lot of software I can no longer use because they won't let me change my hardware ID from my initial registration. It's a pain in the butt, especially for software I bought ages ago and the expected life cycle for a computer for me is at most 2 years before a complete replacement.

akademus
10-11-2007, 05:03 PM
This is really cool stuff. Direct lwo support. I would buy 3d-brush but at this time it won't work on my laptop because of stinky graphic card. But I will certainly have it in mind. Good stuff!

RedBull
10-11-2007, 06:39 PM
Andrew, I have emailed you an assortment of .LWO with various flags/options set, multi-layered objects, subpatch, uv, smoothed and non-smoothed objects.
Again, thanks for the quick uptake of this feature, i look forward to your progress. Anything else i can do, please let me know.

jayroth
10-11-2007, 06:51 PM
Andrew, best to contact Chuck Baker at NewTek, as he can make sure that you have the latest specifications. I would recommend all third party developers take this path.

bobakabob
10-12-2007, 05:56 AM
Thank you! I love LW community! :)

Andrew,

Your program is really exciting news... Lightwave users don't have the facility to paint directly in the program so 3D Brush with Lightwave support would be fantastic. I'm a ZBrush user but will certainly take a look, it's great value. Looking forward to seeing how you progress.

AndrewShpagin
10-12-2007, 06:04 AM
Thanks!

I plan to make LWO support during the week. Now import is done on 50%.

Also I have a question to jayroth: how is better to contact Chuck Baker? Through mail to support or in some other way? Now I use LWO specification from

http://web.archive.org/web/20010423140254/http://members.home.net/erniew2/lwsdk/docs/filefmts/lwo2.html

But I don't know if this this documentation is complete. I am interested in using dispalacement and normalmaps in LW because 3D-Brush is especially good for this purpose.

Chuck
10-12-2007, 11:22 AM
We keep the SDK publicly available on our 3D Party Developers page:

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/developers

In addition to the SDK for the current shipping version, when we are conducting testing in Open Beta we usually post the SDK version current with the build in testing (which reminds me - I need to send the latest to the Web team today to post).

I will leave you a Private Message with my email - email works best for developer support as I can easily forward that along to the appropriate developer to get answers for you.

AndrewShpagin
10-13-2007, 09:59 AM
Can anyine tell the difference between "Layer" and "Surface" ?

I see that Layer contains geometry but Surface contains material. How does they correspod to each other?

IMI
10-13-2007, 11:03 AM
A layer in an LW object file is like a layer in a photoshop psd file. It's a way of isolating a part of a model from the rest of it.
A Surface is simply a material group - a group of polygons with a unique name and the ability to give it different surface attributes.

You know, I think you can still get a demo of LW 9.0, at least. :)

AndrewShpagin
10-13-2007, 11:13 AM
Thank you!

Is it usual that layer has no name? (because i see empty layers names in all LWO files that i have) I see that surfaces has names but layers usually have no.

Is demo can be downloaded from NewTek site?

IMI
10-13-2007, 11:20 AM
No problem. :)
When you create a new layer, it is in fact, unnamed. However, in the Layers Panel, you can double-click it and assign it a name, as well as parent it to another layer if you want to. it's a good habit to name your layers, but alot of people don't right away, until they're finished with the model.

Looks like the trial is down right now, but the page is here:
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lwtrial/

colkai
10-15-2007, 02:26 AM
On the advice of a good friend, I'm gonna be getting this before the offer expires. Just need to install the demo on my LW machine.

That's the only downside for me, having the key tied to the current hardware config. (Especially as my PC seems to be in a mode of "I may die again" lately :p)

AndrewShpagin
10-15-2007, 02:31 AM
When you will upgrade/change your computer we will send you the new serial without any additional payment.

colkai
10-15-2007, 05:07 AM
Ordered and key recvd - cheers!

AndrewShpagin
10-15-2007, 05:41 AM
Glad to see you in our community! :)

Andy Webb
10-15-2007, 08:39 AM
I have to say I'm very impressed with 3D Brush.

I've tried a number of times to get on with Z-Brush and found the interface defeated me very time.

3D Brush looks to do everything I want, I've had a play with the demo and got some useful results pretty quickly.

starbase1
10-15-2007, 09:01 AM
This does look rather interesting to say the least, and I suspect it may let me take on a task that had defeated me before, making a convincing small moon or asteroid with proper craters...

What I want to do is start with an approximate sphere, and roll the sphere around, smoothly stamping lots of small craters over it. If I understand the program correctly I could take height mapped craters from the Moon or Mars, create a set of crater brushes, and start applying them.

Is this correct?

Is there anything else that would help me do this, such as setting up a 'spray' or differing brishes at different sizes?

Nick

Dodgy
10-15-2007, 09:25 AM
Yep you can do all that.

Andy Webb
10-15-2007, 09:31 AM
Well I've bitten the bullet and bought 3D Brush.

Looking forward to getting my license info. :D :beerchug:

AndrewShpagin
10-15-2007, 09:37 AM
to starbase1:

You can also apply height, radius, rotation and position jitters. It is what really will help to make craters. You also can select the mode of applying: add heights or overlap craters.

to Andy:

Thanks!

bobakabob
10-15-2007, 09:40 AM
This does look rather interesting to say the least, and I suspect it may let me take on a task that had defeated me before, making a convincing small moon or asteroid with proper craters...

What I want to do is start with an approximate sphere, and roll the sphere around, smoothly stamping lots of small craters over it. If I understand the program correctly I could take height mapped craters from the Moon or Mars, create a set of crater brushes, and start applying them.

Is this correct?

Is there anything else that would help me do this, such as setting up a 'spray' or differing brishes at different sizes?

Nick

I'd also be interested to know if you can do this too. I imagine you can. The technique is described below for anyone unfamiliar with paint programs outputting normal and displacement maps.

In ZBrush it's simple and intuitive. You'd use an alpha map as a 'stamp' on a hi res mesh and presto you end up with an instant cratered surface. It's brilliant for creating landscapes quickly and you can output good quality normal maps.

In the WIP section I've uploaded a cratered island scene (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=606159#post606159)which involved modelling a basic landscape in Lightwave and surfacing it using the alpha technique. Alphas were made from photos of rocky surfaces. Sure it looks like the Clangers but you get the idea ;)

bobakabob
10-15-2007, 09:46 AM
to starbase1:

You can also apply height, radius, rotation and position jitters. It is what really will help to make craters. You also can select the mode of applying: add heights or overlap craters.

to Andy:

Thanks!

Andy, That's really good news. Can't wait to try this... the inclusion of Photoshop image map layers in 3D Brush sounds like a big advantage over ZB paint tools.

AndrewShpagin
10-15-2007, 09:47 AM
to starbase1 - You can also model crater/group of craters in LW and use this model like a heightmap pen in 3D-Brush.

moremetall
10-15-2007, 11:33 AM
update:

http://3dbrush.kriska.hvosting.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=503

starbase1
10-15-2007, 11:40 AM
I'd also be interested to know if you can do this too. I imagine you can. The technique is described below for anyone unfamiliar with paint programs outputting normal and displacement maps.

In ZBrush it's simple and intuitive. You'd use an alpha map as a 'stamp' on a hi res mesh and presto you end up with an instant cratered surface. It's brilliant for creating landscapes quickly and you can output good quality normal maps.

In the WIP section I've uploaded a cratered island scene (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=606159#post606159)which involved modelling a basic landscape in Lightwave and surfacing it using the alpha technique. Alphas were made from photos of rocky surfaces. Sure it looks like the Clangers but you get the idea ;)

I strongly suggest looking at Martian crater fields, 16 bit accuracy, and a lightwave plugin to load MOLA data...

Nick

OOZZEE
10-15-2007, 12:39 PM
hi folks, don't want to hijack the thread... but for those who already bought it... is the video ( the first one ) where green and red balls are added to the model done on a boneless model ? Cause that is so cool !!! Can those new 'positions' be exported ? how flexible is that system in the problem areas and creases ?

so what's the overall verdict on this program ? out of 10 ?

will most likely buy it when I get home later !!

thanks- and sorry for hijacking !! I just couldn't help it, had to ask & and it looks really really cool !

3DBob
10-15-2007, 12:43 PM
Well I've been using ZB3 for a couple of months now and it is awesome - but overkill for most things and way too complex an interface with this - within seconds of using 3d-brush I was painting Colour/spec and bump like I do in DeepPaint - but quicker and on much higher poly objects + Displacement.

It could do with being multi threaded - but easily handled millions of polys on 1 out of 8 cores. Has some odd/inconsistant/unconventioal naming of some menu items/panels - but these are minor criticisms for a package that blends the useful parts of Mudbox, ZBrush and Deepaint in a simple and easy to use interface.

Cudos to the programer for writing a LWO I/O - after 1 hour of testing and reading that commitment I bought a licence.

I really like the object to brush function simplicity and the strip painting.

At this price and with LWO I/O Newtek would be wasting their time creating the same functionality in house.

3DBob

bobakabob
10-15-2007, 12:57 PM
Well I've been using ZB3 for a couple of months now and it is awesome - but overkill for most things and way too complex an interface with this - within seconds of using 3d-brush I was painting Colour/spec and bump like I do in DeepPaint - but quicker and on much higher poly objects + Displacement.

It could do with being multi threaded - but easily handled millions of polys on 1 out of 8 cores. Has some odd/inconsistant/unconventioal naming of some menu items/panels - but these are minor criticisms for a package that blends the useful parts of Mudbox, ZBrush and Deepaint in a simple and easy to use interface.

Cudos to the programer for writing a LWO I/O - after 1 hour of testing and reading that commitment I bought a licence.

I really like the object to brush function simplicity and the strip painting.

At this price and with LWO I/O Newtek would be wasting their time creating the same functionality in house.

3DBob

By the sound of it Newtek should seriously consider licensing 3D Brush. It would be a great opportunity to boost Lightwave's feature set - considerably.

As great as Modeller is, look at how it appears to have seriously stalled in relation to the competition (no names mentioned!)

Dodgy
10-15-2007, 01:15 PM
hi folks, don't want to hijack the thread... but for those who already bought it... is the video ( the first one ) where green and red balls are added to the model done on a boneless model ? Cause that is so cool !!! Can those new 'positions' be exported ? how flexible is that system in the problem areas and creases ?

so what's the overall verdict on this program ? out of 10 ?

will most likely buy it when I get home later !!

thanks- and sorry for hijacking !! I just couldn't help it, had to ask & and it looks really really cool !

It is a boneless modification, and you can export those poses should you wish it. There is also a falloff modification mode, where you paint your selection, and can then move/rotate scale.

Out of 10? 10 definitely... This is definitely worth it.

3DBob
10-15-2007, 01:19 PM
4 days ago - this guy said he wanted to include a LWO importer - well, I've just loaded his latest beta, Loaded a LWO - With texure and Displacement - and it works - there is a bit of scrambled UV in the UV viewport, and viewing a low poly version seems messed up (see attached)- but it doesnt seem to affect painting or displacements.

Could do with loading attached textures - or at least giving you an option in the loader panel complete with displacement amount.

this is an 800ish poly model displaced

3DBob

bobakabob
10-15-2007, 01:44 PM
4 days ago - this guy said he wanted to include a LWO importer - well, I've just loaded his latest beta, Loaded a LWO - With texure and Displacement - and it works - there is a bit of scrambled UV in the UV viewport, and viewing a low poly version seems messed up (see attached)- but it doesnt seem to affect painting or displacements.

Could do with loading attached textures - or at least giving you an option in the loader panel complete with displacement amount.

this is an 800ish poly model displaced

3DBob

3DBob,

Nice examples. Do the maps need to be flipped vertically as ZBrush generated maps do to work in Lightwave? Presumably if it's totally LW friendly this won't be necessary...

starbase1
10-15-2007, 01:58 PM
but easily handled millions of polys on 1 out of 8 cores.

3DBob

Bob!
STOP SHOWING OFF!

:D

3DBob
10-15-2007, 02:10 PM
Well - I didnt have to flip them to import them - YAY!, can't test export as I'm waiting for my licence key.... and no problems importing the LW UVs - wonderfully generated by the great PLG tools in LW BTW...

it is a beta format import - so I'm sure that he'll sort the two issues I've identified.

With regard to LW shortcomings re other apps - I am seriously glad that NT didn't waste time and money integrating this functionaility themselves. I really like the render engine improvements. Lets face it - if you want photo real you use Maxwell (best plugin for LW IMHO), If you wanted displacement - I would have said ZB, still do for top end stuff - but this is the solution for every waver out there.

NTs focus on its render engine means you can do every fantasy through to nearly photo real (compared to MW) fast. In hindsight - it would appear that they have put their development right where it mattered most, Render engine and Layout workflow/stability.

As was painfully obvious from Tarons demo at Sigraph at the NT booth - the best organic modellers rough a subdiv - and do the rest in a displacement painter (ZB3 he said) - now there appears there is a better workflow available to the majority of LW users for 1/10 the cost. With LW CAD 2.5 - Hard body (excepting some edge issues) is a doddle in modler as it is.

Without getting too off topic. NT could improve their displacement and character tools.... me happy.

3DBob

3DBob
10-16-2007, 06:03 AM
Ok, got licence key - able to import LWO - paint and export textures - in my test a specularity map, without any need for flipping.

This is a cool tool. Best to get it before it goes back over $210

3DBob

starbase1
10-16-2007, 06:48 AM
I think I'll be signing up, (got a payday very soon!).

I think the manyual could do with a bit of work though, the translation is a bit wonky, (though it's generally clear what is meant).

Nick

Dodgy
10-16-2007, 07:19 AM
I'm reading/correcting through that at the moment, as soon as I've finished correcting it, he'll get it sorted...

3DBob
10-16-2007, 07:33 AM
Hi dodgy - are you going to correct the interface inconsistencies and mis-spellings also?

3DBob

2BitSculptor
10-16-2007, 07:59 AM
I posted this on the 3D Brush forum... but has anyone here noticed if their z axis is reversed on a LWO? I loaded in a landscape I'm working on and the front was in the back, but the x and y was correct. When I load in an OBJ of the same landscape (exported from LW) it comes in correctly.

Chuck

AndrewShpagin
10-16-2007, 08:05 AM
ok, I will flip the axe during the import. Are you sure that only z-axe is flipped?

OOZZEE
10-16-2007, 08:05 AM
thanks for the answers guys - really appreciate...sounds like a good deal. unfortunately something was preventing me from connecting to web at home last night so will make another attempt to buy this tonight !!!!

starbase1
10-16-2007, 08:12 AM
I'm reading/correcting through that at the moment, as soon as I've finished correcting it, he'll get it sorted...

Ochen Harasho!

3DBob
10-16-2007, 09:21 AM
Confirmed.

mmm I wonder if flipping the z will mean having to flip the UV on I/O


Andrew?

3DBob

AndrewShpagin
10-16-2007, 09:23 AM
UV flip and Z flip are independent. So if Z is flipped then it does not means that UV are flipped. Tomorrow I will upload the version with all fixes about LWO import. Auto UV will be improved much.

3DBob
10-16-2007, 09:31 AM
Can I ask Andrew about if the issues I Identified yesterday re - LOW poly view and UV view have been fixed.

Also, It does not import objects with the textures that are assigned to them.

By the way - I'd just like to say it is a great program, well done.

Regards

3DBob

AndrewShpagin
10-16-2007, 09:51 AM
LOW-poly view - fixed. About textures - they also should be loaded if path in lwo file corresponds to them place on disk. Are that textures in the same folder like the model? Also it could be good if you will send me the examle of LWO file with textures that are failed to load.

AbnRanger
10-16-2007, 10:20 AM
By the sound of it Newtek should seriously consider licensing 3D Brush. It would be a great opportunity to boost Lightwave's feature set - considerably.

As great as Modeller is, look at how it appears to have seriously stalled in relation to the competition (no names mentioned!)Yep, I think Newtek may have stumbled upon a real gem here...if Andrew could somehow integrate it within LW itself (still keeping a standalone for users of other programs), I can see Newtek licensing it.

3DBob
10-16-2007, 10:26 AM
Typically Lightwave scenes are stored as follows

ROOT/images
ROOT/objects
ROOT/scenes

ROOT is what we call a content directory - so the object is not normally in the same directory as the images applied to it.

Thats how mine are set up.

Just tried putting it in same directory and no luck with Network Attached Storage or local drive.

With respect to displacement in Lightwave - this is normally set up in a node tree (at the moment) so I cant see them coming in easily. Might be an idea to do the following:-

In the load panel - have a "Load Displacement Map" browser button with a "scale factor" user adjustable preset and a "Load Image Map"/"Load specularity map" browser button.

Also a node with handles that could be dragged around enable/disabled for object rotation centre would really help.

I'll try and send you an object.

3DBob

3DBob
10-16-2007, 10:46 AM
Test object sent to you Andrew - thanks for fixing the LWO Import issues so quickly.

ABN Ranger - no need to cripple this guys pro-active and highly responsive release schedule by integrating it with Lightwave. Better kept seperate - mind you a hub link and a LW interface skin would be great!

I also think 3D-Brushes OpenGL works completely differently and this would cause all manner of headaches for NT.

I do agree that Newtek should bundle this or promote it once LWO integration is tight and the english is good in the app/docs. I was considering getting MODO for displacement painting/texturing - but this totally negates the USPs that modo had that interested me.

It should not be indicated at any time that this would be included free as a part of LW10 as people would hold off investing and this makes no sense for either 3D-Brushes development or users frankly at this $70 price.

3DBob

AbnRanger
10-16-2007, 04:22 PM
Just got an e-mail from Autodesk, regarding the completion of their acquistion of Mudbox. One interesting thing of note is that it mentioned their intention is to develop it as a "stand alone" application and a compliment to Maya and Max, as well as other programs.

So, yeah...Newtek bundling 3D Brush together with LW in future promotions would be a good choice, IMHO.

calilifestyle
10-16-2007, 06:13 PM
Shoot not even sure i need this tool but at the price i'm about to just buy it. looks great. anyone have any other sample work you can show off

DiedonD
10-17-2007, 02:19 AM
I tried to make an order today, and after installing on my computer it says now that my zip code for Albania doesnt works. I mean its 20000 Im sure of it cause all postal shipments came through Albania and with that ZIP postal code.

I dont know why isnt it working on your site, cause THATS THE ONLY ONE I HAVE

AndrewShpagin
10-17-2007, 06:57 AM
We have written the letter to PLIMUS about your problem with ZIP code. I think they will answer soon.

Phil
10-17-2007, 08:16 AM
What's with the restrictions in the license agreement, though?

--

4.1 Pilgway Limited strongly forbids you using of the Software in the production of any products which carry sexual, erotic or obscene materials as well as of any products which propagandize murder, agression or (and) violence against people. Pilgway warns you about responsibility first of all before God. Pilgway has the right to bring an action against you if you use the Software in the production of such materials.

--

That's pretty heavy-handed and quite disappointing. I assume that the mentioned action is to refuse to offer support and to refuse to activate the software for the user in future.

For those on Mac, though, the demo does appear to work reasonably well with CrossOver Office. There are some display issues, though.

Phil
10-17-2007, 08:24 AM
Here's the interface under CrossOver Office on a MacBook Pro

DiedonD
10-17-2007, 08:28 AM
We have written the letter to PLIMUS about your problem with ZIP code. I think they will answer soon.

Ok do tell me when its done will you? Either here or PM. Hope it gets done before this 70$ deal is on!

AndrewShpagin
10-17-2007, 11:37 AM
To diedond: PLIMUS has wrote in answer on our question


I'm afraid we could not reproduce this issue. The system will not stop a
purchase because of a bad ZIP number (although it may be flagged for manual
review by our fraud staff).
Also, please note that the customer wrote: "after installing on my computer",
which may indicate that the problem he is having is with your software and not
the order?

If you believe this is a problem with the order page, we'd appreciate a
screenshot with the error and data.
My comment - try to enter any other ZIP code or send me screenshot with error (to [email protected])

To Phil about license: This string in license was slightly changed. This topic was discussed there http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74661&page=4 . I think it was discussed enough to get answer on any questions about this string in license. In short - this string is appellation to coinscience but not to law.

calilifestyle
10-17-2007, 01:57 PM
What's with the restrictions in the license agreement, though?

--

4.1 Pilgway Limited strongly forbids you using of the Software in the production of any products which carry sexual, erotic or obscene materials as well as of any products which propagandize murder, agression or (and) violence against people. Pilgway warns you about responsibility first of all before God. Pilgway has the right to bring an action against you if you use the Software in the production of such materials.

--

That's pretty heavy-handed and quite disappointing. I assume that the mentioned action is to refuse to offer support and to refuse to activate the software for the user in future.

For those on Mac, though, the demo does appear to work reasonably well with CrossOver Office. There are some display issues, though.

This 4.1 it on the license agreement, um is this true lol naw not going to happend, ill have to pass.

AndrewShpagin
10-17-2007, 10:52 PM
The 4.1 now sounds like I have written below. I think now it is not like a law but like a question of conscience.



4.1 The 3D-Brush software should not be used in the production of any erotic or obscene materials as well as of any products which propagandize hatred against people. We understand that we are not able to check you but we warn you about responsibility before God.

Also I have a question about Mac and CrossOver office. It is really interesting information. Can you send me a screenshot with normalmap view window? Can you send me screenshot with other object loaded (like sample.obj) ?

DiedonD
10-18-2007, 03:19 AM
To diedond: PLIMUS has wrote in answer on our question


My comment - try to enter any other ZIP code or send me screenshot with error (to [email protected])

To Phil about license: This string in license was slightly changed. This topic was discussed there http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74661&page=4 . I think it was discussed enough to get answer on any questions about this string in license. In short - this string is appellation to coinscience but not to law.

Thanks for fixing up Plimus. I typed THEE exact same thing, but this time it worked.

As for ethics in art, which all this "Do not do porn nor murder movies or models with our product" appears to be, I think its either a publicity stunt or pure nonsense.

I mean, its very well wide known that Sublimation is among best Unconscious defense mechanisms known to man. If someone is angry at his boss, he or she is bestest to make a movie about the boss' murder then to actually manifest the wish in reality. Same goes for people who might have sexual disfunctions and may need to express urges in this way. And them two have played alot in the art world.

But, yeah I get your technique, see we've been talking about it till now, :thumbsup: , its working, the more we talk the more you get sales, like you just did with mine.

Phil
10-18-2007, 06:36 AM
The 4.1 now sounds like I have written below. I think now it is not like a law but like a question of conscience.



Also I have a question about Mac and CrossOver office. It is really interesting information. Can you send me a screenshot with normalmap view window? Can you send me screenshot with other object loaded (like sample.obj) ?

Sure. Here we are. The filenames show what is in each image. The problem seems to be in the colour/texture window - the wireframe overlapping show the issue that is seen in the perspective view.

AndrewShpagin
10-18-2007, 06:54 AM
It seems that there is some post-effect if applied (I see blurred edges on texture). May be there is something like anti-aliasing is turned on by default. I dont know how this is on Mac but there must be some control panel where you can set image quality. Sometimes there is antialiasing is turned on by default. Please look for this options (and turn off post effect, especially anti-aliasing).

starbase1
10-18-2007, 08:36 AM
Do you have a licencing policy with regard to installing the software in a virtual machine?

AndrewShpagin
10-18-2007, 08:39 AM
What does mean virtual machine for 3d-Brush? Some kind of offline rendering? Occlusion calculation?

starbase1
10-18-2007, 09:36 AM
What does mean virtual machine for 3d-Brush? Some kind of offline rendering? Occlusion calculation?

Sorry, I should have explained.

I mean installing into a virtualised operating system, like the products from VM Ware. In case you are unfamiliar with it, these products emulate a computer, you then install an operating system into the virtual machine, and can then treat it pretty much like a real one.

This can be used, for example to run a one operating system under another at the same time, without dual boot. Most applications are completely unaware they are virtualised unless they actively try to detect it. (and even then, not always...)

There's some info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMware

Nick

colkai
10-18-2007, 11:24 AM
I'd be happy if I could run one PC with a choice of if I have my networ kport enabled or not or if my USB modem is plugged in or not.
3D-Brush is has a strange idea of what constitues a hardware setup.

Motionbuilder is "hardware / install" dependant but that doesn't throw a hissy-fit if I choose to enable or disable my network port or if I choose to plug, or not plug, my modem in. All the hardware drivers are there and 'seen' by everything in windows but 3D-Brush draws a distinction between it being active and not, which is, shall we say, a might frustrating.

StereoMike
10-18-2007, 03:02 PM
what? when I plug in the webcam, 3dbrush won't start? Ugh...was about to buy, but I have alot of usb stuff, dongles, colorcalibration device etc, I guess i will never find out the configuration I used for getting the licences key a second time!

mike

AndrewShpagin
10-18-2007, 11:10 PM
Dont worry about usb stuff.

to colcai: I have understood why Hardware code changes in dependence of modem. I hope that the nearest update (may be today) will solve the problem.

to starbase1: you can use 3d-Brush on virtual machine if it works in this way.

to Phil: It seems that I have understood why picture has artifacts - the big texture (2048x2048) in simply clipped by screen viewport. So it is easy to fix it. So the next update will fix it an I think 3D-Brosh will work on Mac with Cross Over.

to StereoMike: 3D-Brush HC does not depends on webcam. The problem was because computer had no ethernet card, so HC was dependent on modem. It was bug and I think it is fixed (by update that i I will upload today).

AbnRanger
10-19-2007, 12:45 AM
Hey Andrew, I don't know if you have noticed all the hub-bub your EULA has stirred up on this thread:
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75052

...but, I hope you can revise it to simply state (as other software companies do...like Adobe) you ask that it not be used to produce objectionable content (i.e. pornographic or gratuitously violent material, etc). I PM'ed you about the matter, but it seems you were either too busy or just ignoring it, altogether.

Nevertheless, I'm a Christian too, and I know where you're coming from, but you have to understand that you are introducing your product not just to a Christian market, but to the broader public, a global free-market...and a software license agreement is not an opportune or appropriate place to share the Gospel, brother. :D I say that as kindly as possible.

Some people are going to persecute and mock you no matter what (Matt 5:11) but we are also warned to be discerning and not invite undue scorn, as well (Proverbs 9:7,8 and Matthew 7:6). Mixing the Gospel or even the Lord's name with a legal agreement does just that. I like the fact that you're not ashamed of your faith and are willing to take a stand, but a EULA isn't the right place to do so, once again. I hope you are willing to consider this. Thanks.

Don

colkai
10-19-2007, 01:39 AM
Dont worry about usb stuff.

to colcai: I have understood why Hardware code changes in dependence of modem. I hope that the nearest update (may be today) will solve the problem.

That is VERY good news to hear as I was getting mighty put off loading it, which is a shame. Looking forward to that all being rectified. :thumbsup:

Edit:
Don... well put! :)

Carm3D
10-19-2007, 02:18 AM
What's with the restrictions in the license agreement, though?

--

4.1 Pilgway Limited strongly forbids you using of the Software in the production of any products which carry sexual, erotic or obscene materials as well as of any products which propagandize murder, agression or (and) violence against people. Pilgway warns you about responsibility first of all before God. Pilgway has the right to bring an action against you if you use the Software in the production of such materials.


Wow.. I was going to buy it until I read this.. I don't need my software getting judgemental on me. I had enough of that when I was a child.

AndrewShpagin
10-19-2007, 02:22 AM
This point was changed, I have told about it in this thread
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=607836&posted=1#post607836

Mr Rid
10-19-2007, 02:31 AM
'Judge not, lest ye be condemned for using 3D-brush to make naughty things.'

"We ask that you not use this software to make bad things, or if you are a homosexual, or if you have ever had an abortion, or if you eat meat, or if you drink expired milk, or if you missed a spot shaving this morning, or if you ever fibbed to your mother, because the Great Spaghetti Monster does not approve of such things."

And other funny Bible rules-

How to break up a fight
Deuteronomy 25:11
'If two men are fighting and the wife of one man rescues her husband from his assailant by grabbing his testicles you must cut off her hand. Show her no pity.'

When to Stone Your Children
Deuteronomy 21:18
'If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not listen to the voice of his father or his mother even when they punish him his father and mother must take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. ... All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.'

When to marry your Rapist
Deuteronomy 22:28
'If a man happens to meet a virgin woman who is not engaged to be married, And he seizes her and rapes her but is caught in the act the rapist must pay the girl's father fifty silver shekels. She must marry the rapist, because he has violated her. And so long as he lives, he may not divorce her.'

Lieing about your virginity
Deuteronomy 22:13
'If a man marries a woman and has sex with her and then turns on her and publicly accuses her, saying, "I married this woman, and when I had sex with her, I found no evidence of virginity, the girl's father and mother must take the evidence of her viginity and show it to the elders of the town, saying, "Here is the evidence of my daughter's virginity. The elders will then have the man arrested and flogged, and fine him 100 silver pieces, giving this money to the girl's father. The woman will remain the man's wife as long as he lives, and he may not divorce her. But if the accusation is true and no evidence of the woman's virginity is shown, the woman must be taken to the door of her fathers house and stoned to death by the men of the town.'

Prisoners of War
Deuteronomy 21:10
'When you go to war against your enemies and you take prisoners put the entire male population to death. If among the prisoners you see a beautiful woman, and you are attracted to her you may take her as a wife. Bring her into your home, shave her head, cut her nails, and take off her prisoner's garb.'

Male Genital Injury
Deuteronomy 23:1
'A man whose testicles have been crushed or whose penis has been cut off must not be admitted to the congregation of Yahweh.'


Spoils of War
Deuteronomy 21:10
'When you go to war against your enemies and you take prisoners put the entire male population to death. If among the prisoners you see a beautiful woman, and you are attracted to her you may take her as a wife. Bring her into your home, shave her head, cut her nails, and take off her prisoner's garb.'

What Not to Eat (must not eat rabbit, pig, shellfish, shrimp, lobster)

Cud chewing- bad
Leviticus 11:3
'You may eat any animal that has a cloven hoof, divided in two parts, and chews the cud. ... Regard the rabbit as unclean, for though it chews the cud, it does not have a cloven hoof. Regard the pig as unclean, for though has a cloven hoof, it does not chew the cud. Do not eat their meat or touch their dead bodies. You will regard them as unclean. ... But anything in the seas or rivers that does not have fins and scales, regard as an abomination. Do not eat their meat and regard their carcasses as an abomination.

Rare steak- really bad
Leviticus 7:26
'Wherever you live, you must not eat the blood of any bird or animal. If anyone eats blood, that person must be executed.'

Slavery- OK!
Exodus 21:7
'If a man sells his daughter as a slave (?!?...read that again) she will not leave as male slaves do. If she does not please her master who intended her for himself he must let her be bought back.'

Exodus 21:20
'If someone beats his slave... but should the slave survive for one day or two he will pay no penalty because the slave is his owner's property.'

Exodus 21:2
'When you purchase a Hebrew slave his service will last for six years. In the seventh year he will leave a free man. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and children will belong to the master, and he will depart alone. But if the slave says to you, "I do not want to leave you," because he loves you and your family, and is well off with you then you must take an awl and drive it through the slave's ear and into the door. He will be your servant forever.

Leviticus 25:44-46
'However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. '

Ephesians 6:5
'Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.'
Luke 12:47 (Jesus condones slavery)
'The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refuses to do it. "But People who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given."

Here's my favorite
Corinthians 11:14
'Doth not even nature itself teach you that if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him.' 51324

The admonition of the programmer is offensive because he is passing personal judgement on strangers he understands nothing about, not to mention being a complete hypocrite to his own alleged faith. Go judge yourself.

Carm3D
10-19-2007, 02:40 AM
This point was changed, I have told about it in this thread
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=607836&posted=1#post607836

That's okay... I'm still pretty offended by it. You won't be getting my money. Why would I want to fund such puritanical hypocracy?

AndrewShpagin
10-19-2007, 03:23 AM
The citation from Adobe Photoshop EULA:


ADOBE
Software License Agreement
2.6 Content Files.

... Content Files may not be used in the production of libelous, defamatory, fraudulent, lewd, obscene or pornographic material or any material that infringes upon any third party intellectual property rights or in any othrewise unlawful manner. ...

Iain
10-19-2007, 04:01 AM
And other funny Bible rules-


What's your point? I live my life by those quotes (well apart from the blood one-can't beat a bit of black pudding for breakfast when you're feeling a bit rough from the night before.)

Seriously funny post :)

archijam
10-19-2007, 05:54 AM
And other funny Bible rules-
Here's my favorite
Corinthians 11:14
'Doth not even nature itself teach you that if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him.' 51324

Bible hairdressing quotes are the best.

Leviticus 19:27:
Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

j.

2BitSculptor
10-19-2007, 06:57 AM
Still off topic....

Deuteronomy has been suspect as an authentic book of Moses for some time now. Some scholars explain that it was miraculously 'discovered' in the basement of the temple by elite religious extremist priests. It completely redefined the known (accepted) works of Moses on the Hebrew legal system to subject and control the population in those unstable times. And people were too afraid of the religious class to question it's authenticity.

As Yeshua is quoted ... " There are two laws... Love God with all your being, and love your neighbor as yourself"

As Paul wrote... "all things are permissible, but not all things are expedient"

Enough!... please!

Chuck

AndrewShpagin
10-19-2007, 07:08 AM
I think it is really enough to discuss religious things. I think "religious question" was discussed so many times that it senseless to continue. I have accountability before peoples who have bought 3D-Brush. But instead of writing updates and fixing bugs I must tell, tell, tell... I want to make update today but it is so difficult to work when I must prove something ten times... I made what I made. Does someone wants that I should do against my conscience? So please write there about technical questions.

Ztreem
10-19-2007, 07:50 AM
I don't know why people always have to repeat them self and stuck with some license agreement that you can interpret as you wish. But if you by all means have to do pornographic or violent creations then maybe you have a problem.

I only see a nice application that can help me to do nice 3D creations and I consider to buy it.

Andy Webb
10-19-2007, 08:01 AM
I only see a nice application that can help me to do nice 3D creations and I consider to buy it.

:agree:

Too much is being made of all this. I doubt anyone on this group uses LW to produced porn or extreme violence. If they do then I doubt they will take any notice of the user policy of any software, Adobe, NT or anyone else.

I was quite surprised by the clause when I saw it but the program seems to be good, I for one have other things to worry about, I bought it and look forward to more updates and improvements.

AbnRanger
10-19-2007, 08:06 AM
I think it is really enough to discuss religious things. I think "religious question" was discussed so many times that it senseless to continue. I have accountability before peoples who have bought 3D-Brush. But instead of writing updates and fixing bugs I must tell, tell, tell... I want to make update today but it is so difficult to work when I must prove something ten times... I made what I made. Does someone wants that I should do against my conscience? So please write there about technical questions.Don't worry about them any longer, Andrew. Like I said, some people will mock you regardless. And, even after my appeal to you was straight to the point and you responded affirmitively, there will be plenty here that just want to pile it on, and will try to milk this thing for all it's worth.
On the other thread, they beat a dead horse into a million pieces, so to speak.
I wouldn't spend another minute with this...they have made their point over and over. You acknowledged it and made changes as much as your conscience will allow, now let the chips fall where they may.

I would go back to work, as you planned, and not entertain or read another post ranting about how they are offended. You are trying to do a good thing here and helping this community, and they just relish in the opportunity to vent their anti-christian bias. Remember John 3:18-20 and Matthew 7:6 before deciding to answer anymore of this huff. Have a good day, and keep up the good work.

Don

AbnRanger
10-19-2007, 08:46 AM
While you're at it, don't forget Ezekiel 25:17 it's one of the better ones.So, Neverko...didn't know you were a student of the Bible...cool. All this time, I thought you were a die-hard athiest. :foreheads

So...just who is Ezekiel, when was this written, and to whom was it written?
So nice to be able to turn to another brother for Biblical exposition. :D

Phil
10-19-2007, 08:49 AM
Don't worry about them any longer, Andrew. Like I said, some people will mock you regardless. And, even after my appeal to you was straight to the point and you responded affirmitively, there will be plenty here that just want to pile it on, and will try to milk this thing for all it's worth.

Oh, come on. Even if it is OT for the thread, the basic argument about whether software vendors should be able to dictate not just where you can use their software (as now, with machine ID locks, activation, etc.), but *how* you can use their software is a significant one. Andrew's original EULA triggered the discussion; I find it generally interesting although possibly too one-sided.

The discreet way that this limitation and threat of 'action' was inserted into what otherwise looked like a standard EULA has, I think, woken a lot of people up. Very, very few people read the EULA for software they install (leaving aside the question of whether the EULA is actually enforceable). For a separate, happier, example - Freespace 2 came with a EULA that allowed you to copy the game and pass it on to friends. It was a clause buried deep in the agreement, but has kept the game alive long after it disappeared from store shelves.

Back to 3DB, there is a comment on the download page, which I would also expect people not to read. There is no mention in the PDF manual, though. Additionally, you have an entry in the help menu that displays a large dialog full of religious text (which I skimmed the first two lines of).


I would go back to work, as you planned, and not entertain or read another post ranting about how they are offended. You are trying to do a good thing here and helping this community, and they just relish in the opportunity to vent their anti-christian bias. Remember John 3:18-20 and Matthew 7:6 before deciding to answer anymore of this huff. Have a good day, and keep up the good work.

Don

Feeling insecure? I'd expect the same argument if the software was mandating use according to any religious ruleset, be that Hindu, Muslim, Satanic, etc. If there's anti-Christian bias, it would perhaps be worth pausing to wonder why. I have no particular axe to grind here, although large scale religion generally makes me nervous.

However, looking at a significant proportion of the output of folks using ZBrush, you have a problem selling sculpting software that is so restricted. No torso sculpting (male or female) seems to be permitted - not even if you are modelling your wife/husband/partner, for example.

Given that tolerance almost globally appears to be greatly on the decline, that restriction also presents a problem - almost everybody will find something to be offended by and label it obscene.

Having to be aware of usage restrictions would be an enormous burden on users, though. If you have a job calling for models to be used in something like Doom 3 or Quake 4, with graphic injuries, satanic monsters, etc. Does that fall foul of such a usage restriction as 3DB? Would 'action' put you out of business?

*shrug*

I have no religious bias. I hold myself to my own account, so what am I to make of a EULA that holds me to a God I don't believe in, and whose accountability seems ill-defined? Should I simply ignore that bit of the EULA?

I have yet to see the new EULA that Andrew has mentioned. If it has been revised in a way that I can work with, and works well with CrossOver, I'll be happy to support him. I would not like to be seen to endorse such EULAs as the original, though.

Iain
10-19-2007, 09:07 AM
You are trying to do a good thing here and helping this community, and they just relish in the opportunity to vent their anti-christian bias.



Well that little sly dig will shut everybody up won't it?
Anti-christian bias! That's ludicrous.

Point missed by a mile.

Andy Webb
10-19-2007, 09:14 AM
I have no religious bias. I hold myself to my own account, so what am I to make of a EULA that holds me to a God I don't believe in, and whose accountability seems ill-defined? Should I simply ignore that bit of the EULA?


Well the answer is probably yes, ignore it.

I can't see that the EULA is asking or forcing you to believe in any God.

I have no religious bias either and like you large scale religion generally makes me nervous. I for one couldn't quote anything with any accuracy from the bible, for that matter I couldn't quote anything with any accuracy from the LW manual :D

Perhaps I should find a religious discussion forum and start pounding on about 3D software because I seem to be on the wrong forum today :D

Carm3D
10-19-2007, 09:27 AM
Remember John 3:18-20 and Matthew 7:6 before deciding to answer anymore of this huff.

I think he just called us all swine. Well I've got a response to that, Mr. Pious. Isaiah 64:6. The kind of rag that is used to clean up after a camel that has gone through the eye of a needle.

bobakabob
10-19-2007, 09:42 AM
:agree:

Too much is being made of all this. I doubt anyone on this group uses LW to produced porn or extreme violence. If they do then I doubt they will take any notice of the user policy of any software, Adobe, NT or anyone else.

I was quite surprised by the clause when I saw it but the program seems to be good, I for one have other things to worry about, I bought it and look forward to more updates and improvements.

Agreed... Andrew has acknowledged it's wrong that anyone should be intimidated by a license agreement and it's clearly not his intention to actively provoke or offend anyone. Disappointing to see so much ranting and infantile attempts at humour here but reassuring to read some constructive advice as to how he should frame an appropriate license agreement for a global and / or non religious audience.

StereoMike
10-19-2007, 10:17 AM
Thread missed by a mile I would say.
This is about 3D Brush and alot of folks can't just relax.
Yeah, of course you could mention the EULA, and then you could decide not to buy it (tho I don't understand why the EULA should hinder you in any way).

But why turn a thread into a ridiculous bible verse hitting contest?
This board is not about religion (yeah, I know it's part of the EULA, but read the beginning of my post a second time- you could mention it without arguing about god)

Andrew made his points clear, can we now go back to 3D?

mike

moremetall
10-19-2007, 10:29 AM
Thread missed by a mile I would say.
Andrew made his points clear, can we now go back to 3D?

mike

agree !! keep up the good work, looking forward on the update!

AndrewShpagin
10-19-2007, 11:47 AM
I have uploaded an update 2.01F. It is still beta. The list of changes:

1) LWO import improved. z-axe flipped, textures should be loaded even from LW directories structure
2) Spacing option was add in pen options
3) Auto-mapping improved (algoritm was completely changed)
4) Some changes was made for compartability with Cross Over (Mac). But I was not able to check, changes was made by guess.
5) Some problems with alteration of HardwareID was fixed. (But it should be checked, it also was made by guess)
6) Lo-poly view was fixed (for newely imported files).
7) may be something forgotten... :)

EULA was changed, so that it sounds


4.1 The 3D-Brush software should not be used in the production of any lewd or obscene materials as well as of any products which propagandize hatred against people. We understand that we are not able to check you, this is on your conscience, but we warn you about responsibility before God.

It means that if you really don't believe in God then responsibility before Him is not a question for you. But it is question of conscience in any way. The word "erotic" was changed with "lewd" because it is more appropriate.

The "Your accountability" in "Help" menu was removed.


You can download the full version (27 mb) from

http://www.mediafire.com/?8xcyu5yeswj

or update (7 mb) from

http://www.mediafire.com/?6pwd5az2dxx

In the last case 3D-Brush of any version must be installed before.

If you will have any problems with this beta version you can simply reinstall the previous version, but I think that 2.01F works more stably and fastly.

Dodgy
10-19-2007, 11:58 AM
Cool :) Thanks for your work. I'll try to get the manual sorted as soon as I have a tiny bit of time. I've done about 25 % so far.....

2BitSculptor
10-19-2007, 12:23 PM
Thanks Andrew,

I do have issues with downloading from Mediafire with Firefox, I am forced to use IE... but I do what I have to do.

Thanks for the extra effort with bringing this valuable application to us.

Chuck

starbase1
10-19-2007, 12:52 PM
Andrew, you might want to start a new message thread, and leave the religion behind in this one!

Nick
(Pastafarian)

2BitSculptor
10-19-2007, 03:01 PM
Andrew, you might want to start a new message thread, and leave the religion behind in this one!

Nick
(Pastafarian)

This WAS a new start... the discussion migrated over. Too bad this stuff happens to well meaning people. I hope the moderate changes to the software appeal to a larger audience now.

Chuck

jaf
10-19-2007, 03:07 PM
Thanks Andrew,

I do have issues with downloading from Mediafire with Firefox, I am forced to use IE... but I do what I have to do.

Thanks for the extra effort with bringing this valuable application to us.

Chuck

Chuck, is there anything special you do to get it to download with IE? I've been trying with Firefox and IE, but can't get a download. But then I'm on dialup too.

Frustrating.

Iain
10-19-2007, 03:12 PM
This WAS a new start... the discussion migrated over. Too bad this stuff happens to well meaning people. I hope the moderate changes to the software appeal to a larger audience now.

Chuck

Well meaning people can start just as fierce a debate as antagonistic people, just not so often.

The changes are welcomed and probably vary from moderate to extreme depending upon your cultural background or viewpoint.

Andy Webb
10-19-2007, 03:57 PM
Unfortunately I can't get it to download in Firefox or IE :thumbsdow

2BitSculptor
10-19-2007, 04:18 PM
Did you click the "click to begin download" text? :)

I can't explain why it's not working for you.. I double checked and it works fine for me in IE... maybe something not set in your cookie permissions? That was the issue with Firefox... no matter what I set, it would tell me that my cookie settings were wrong.

Chuck

jaf
10-19-2007, 05:16 PM
With Firefox, I eventually get the "save?" dialog (after 15 - 20 minutes) and after I enter the folder to save the download, the Firefox download manager comes up and it follows with an immediate "download complete." I check the file and it's 0 bytes.

With IE7, I click the "start download" and I get a Yahoo page with "Hot jobs" advertisements. The "your download is starting" is still present, but eventually (10 plus minutes) I get a "page not found."

I tried both browsers with my firewall off and virus scanner off. No download manager.

Phil
10-19-2007, 05:55 PM
I have uploaded an update 2.01F. It is still beta. The list of changes:

1) LWO import improved. z-axe flipped, textures should be loaded even from LW directories structure
2) Spacing option was add in pen options
3) Auto-mapping improved (algoritm was completely changed)
4) Some changes was made for compartability with Cross Over (Mac). But I was not able to check, changes was made by guess.
5) Some problems with alteration of HardwareID was fixed. (But it should be checked, it also was made by guess)
6) Lo-poly view was fixed (for newely imported files).
7) may be something forgotten... :)

Downloading now, so will report about 4) shortly. (there is a demo version at www.codeweavers.com)


EULA was changed, so that it sounds

It means that if you really don't believe in God then responsibility before Him is not a question for you. But it is question of conscience in any way. The word "erotic" was changed with "lewd" because it is more appropriate.

The "Your accountability" in "Help" menu was removed.

All of this is much appreciated, and something I can work with. Thanks for the quick update!

Phil
10-19-2007, 06:00 PM
CrossOver still shows the same problem, sadly. I'll have to ask CodeWeavers if there is a control somewhere.

Mr Rid
10-19-2007, 07:54 PM
Announcing the 3-D Brush SEX & VIOLENCE Challenge!

Dig into the id and let those impure thoughts ooze and splatter! Who can come up with the most profane or disturbing render using that favorite tool of pious pixel pusher everywhere, 3-D Brush ('D' for Divine).

3rd Prize is the original Accountability plaque in cheap plastic and particle board wrapped in faux walnut contact paper.

2nd Prize is a 3-D Brush Pro version. Comes complete with feedback electrodes to attach to your private places and sensors to detect any animal urges or unclean stimulation resulting in immediate 10,000 volt purification!

1st Prize win an all expense paid Ukraine Romance Tour http://www.loveme.com/tour/kiev/ Fly to Kiev and meet thousands of sexy former Soviet lovelies all desperate to get the hell out of the Ukraine.

ericsmith
10-19-2007, 09:04 PM
Mr Rid,

You know, it's one thing to have an honest debate about this issue (even though there's not much point to it), but now you're just being a jerk about it.

I mean come on. This guy is making what seems to be a really nifty tool and at the moment, selling it for next to nothing. So he's got some personal convictions, and he's trying to keep his business in line with those convictions. He's shown great grace (and even humility, I dare say) in the face of a few of you trashing him for it. Why do you feel you have to continue to bully him about it? Either don't buy his software and leave him alone, or buy his software knowing that he would really rather you not create something vulgar or distastefull.

The fact is, he's admitted that there's little he can do if you go ahead and create this kind of artwork anyways, and leaves it to your own concience. So what's your problem?

Eric

bobakabob
10-19-2007, 09:07 PM
About as funny as piles. What's worrying is it's the second time he's posted this.

theo
10-19-2007, 11:01 PM
Announcing the 3-D Brush SEX & VIOLENCE Challenge!

Dig into the id and let those impure thoughts ooze and splatter! Who can come up with the most profane or disturbing render using that favorite tool of pious pixel pusher everywhere, 3-D Brush ('D' for Divine).
....

This seems dramatically non-comedic, at this point in the discussion.

AndrewShpagin
10-19-2007, 11:17 PM
Excuse me. I see someone have problems with downloading. I was slept, so was not able to see it :) So the new links:

http://www.3d-brush.com/files/eng/3d-brush-2-01F-en.exe

and the update

http://www.3d-brush.com/files/eng/3d-brush-2-01F-en-update.exe

AndrewShpagin
10-19-2007, 11:36 PM
to Phil:

I will write a letter to CodeWeavers an will try to solve the problem. The problem itself is that I perform rendering to big texture (usually 2048x2048) to create normal map and color texture. But CO clips tshis render to screen size. I will write them about this. It is not solution, but you can set texture size 1024x1024 in Commands->Change mesh resolution.

sculptactive
10-20-2007, 02:04 AM
Andrew has been extremely generous.

How many programmers would bother to address there EULA let alone the bugs as quickly as he has.

Lets get back to talking about 3d-brush and it's great features.

DiedonD
10-20-2007, 02:59 AM
Announcing the 3-D Brush SEX & VIOLENCE Challenge!

Dig into the id and let those impure thoughts ooze and splatter! Who can come up with the most profane or disturbing render using that favorite tool of pious pixel pusher everywhere, 3-D Brush ('D' for Divine).

3rd Prize is the original Accountability plaque in cheap plastic and particle board wrapped in faux walnut contact paper.

2nd Prize is a 3-D Brush Pro version. Comes complete with feedback electrodes to attach to your private places and sensors to detect any animal urges or unclean stimulation resulting in immediate 10,000 volt purification!

1st Prize win an all expense paid Ukraine Romance Tour http://www.loveme.com/tour/kiev/ Fly to Kiev and meet thousands of sexy former Soviet lovelies all desperate to get the hell out of the Ukraine.

:lol:

You gotta admitt... Thats... halarious...

Andy Webb
10-20-2007, 04:24 AM
Thanks for the update :)

StereoMike
10-20-2007, 05:49 AM
I don't think there's anything hilarious about bullying somebody just for the cause of making fun of him. All points have been cleared, Andrew deserves respect, not a another slap in the face. I wonder how old some of you are...for not seeing this.


mike
(going to buy it now)

DiedonD
10-20-2007, 06:51 AM
I don't think there's anything hilarious about bullying somebody just for the cause of making fun of him. All points have been cleared, Andrew deserves respect, not a another slap in the face. I wonder how old some of you are...for not seeing this.


mike
(going to buy it now)

Mike, that is noway near bullying. I see no curses, threats or belitlement directed towards Andrew anywhere there. Its intelectual sarcasm. I find it very funny and amusing :) .

If there was an attack of some sort I would go against it immediately as most of us would, like always.

StereoMike
10-20-2007, 08:16 AM
@ Andrew:

Can you implement space mouse support? That would be a major advantage over zBrush, cause they didn't get it into since years.
A space mouse is a device to rotate and move the object with the left hand, while you use the regular mouse or pen with the right hand.

http://www.3dconnexion.com/

SDK:
http://www.3dconnexion.com/support/sdk.php

That would be sooo cool :)

(btw, I'm an official owner now)

mike

jaf
10-20-2007, 08:50 AM
Excuse me. I see someone have problems with downloading. I was slept, so was not able to see it :) So the new links:

http://www.3d-brush.com/files/eng/3d-brush-2-01F-en.exe

and the update

http://www.3d-brush.com/files/eng/3d-brush-2-01F-en-update.exe

Thanks Andrew! Downloaded fine. Now I can try it out.

AndrewShpagin
10-20-2007, 09:11 AM
Ok Mike, I will look SDK, but now my first task - LWO export. So I have included it in feature request list. Thank you for purchasing! :) Tomorrow I will have some rest after difficult week.

Mr Rid
10-20-2007, 11:22 PM
Mr Rid,

You know, it's one thing to have an honest debate about this issue (even though there's not much point to it), but now you're just being a jerk ...

...So he's got some personal convictions, and he's trying to keep his business in line with those convictions....

... he's admitted that there's little he can do if you go ahead and create this kind of artwork anyways, and leaves it to your own concience. So what's your problem?

Eric

I am not the individual who asserts Christianity as a requisite for proper 3D modeling, or the one with the audacity to insinuate legal enforcement of religious restrictions on users of my 3D software, or the one who decided that he is somehow God's personal judge in the matter of 3D content. I dont normally get into this type of personal debate, but this brand of Christian self-superiority is just personally infuriating to no end. I forwarded a frame grab of the Acountability thing to everyone I know- unanimous incredulity.

If you are going to pass aesthetic and moral personality pre-judgements on hundreds or thousands of users you understand nothing about, then it's open season. Which part of Matthew 7:1, "Judge not that ye be not judged" is not understood? How about John 8:7, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." What's the one thing the Bible informs us would actually cause even Yeshua himself to lose his cool over... hypocrisy. Only your god may judge the hearts of men. Go judge yourself Andrew, and check your own conscience.

Personally I find the dumping of any religious piety on users and trying to guilt them about their intentions as entirely unprofessional and just plain annoying. No matter how you spin it, that 'EULA' is 100% self-righteous, hypocritical, intolerant and offensively ignorant.

Please explain the biblical morality of examples on your own site- http://www.3d-brush.com/contact.html … nothing but war game credits here. What was that part about propagandizing hatred and violence?

In the gallery we have some guns designed for one purpose only- to kill. I cant recall offhand, but I think there's something in the Bible about this.

Then there is a mummy presumably re-animated by pagan sorcery (the modeler should be smotethed), some unnatural demonish creature, and something refered to as a dinosaur... hmm, not finding anything about that in the Bible, maybe its okay.

That naked, veiny, bulging strongman in the forum is stirring sensual thoughts… must control… must… blame others… sexy urges swelling… not gay… must hit someone.

Of course, every word of the Bible is meant to be taken literally, and even if the Catholic Church itself were to come out and claim that the Bible is not entirely true... oh wait, they did http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article574768.ece

Well who must've influenced all those Bishops to say such a thing... mmm, Satan? I know the Bible is all real because, well... because the Bible says it is, and because I happened to be born and raised in a geographical location occupied by Christians who also told me it was real. We all know the world began with a talking snake. I dont need to question archeological evidence or to research historical facts regarding the confusion of over 1200 separate Christian denominations in the US alone, or the more than 450 versions of the Bible that have been endlessly transcribed, edited, translated, deleted, interpreted, paraphrased and revised thousands of times over centuries by countless individuals- all perfect, all had nothing but pure, unprejudiced, divinely guided clarity as they wrote about how to judge, stone, impale, and burn bad people, witches, babies, sheep, abortion clinic employees or anyone that does not 'believe,’ ‘agree’ or who is in anyway 'deemed' unworthy by whoever has appointed themselves the hand of justice for the day. Today, it is Andrew. Keep up the Inquisition.

Go ahead, nitpick the facts and counter-post biblical quotes to justify your unquestionable holiness because yes, the Bible is a mass of contradictions. You may always dig up a quote to conveniently suit your disposition. Thats the fun part about Christianity- you may hypocritically pick and choose the parts you like or dont like at personal whim. Forgive me if I dont care to have slaves, sell my daughter or have to marry her to her rapist because he paid me for it, or make human sacrifice, or to have to stab everyone who does not believe in my God and burn their town to the ground, and oh yes, I like Canadian bacon pizza (dig that crazy Deuteronomy). Guess I am just not cutout for this better than thou thing.

You were not ordained Andrew. You choose whatever personal spiritual beliefs you maintain. Let others choose.

----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe
in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why
you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will
understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts

"It is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies." -- Mark Twain

"Whenever we read ... the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize humankind. And, for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel." -- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the
Gospels in praise of intelligence." -Bertrand Russell

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually
on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious
basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way
if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and
hope of reward after death."
--Albert Einstein

jin choung
10-21-2007, 12:01 AM
honestly... is it just me? are we all a bunch of 3rd graders?

why are you badgering someone else to apologize?!

take andrew's side. defend him if you must. but why insist someone else apologize? least of all to someone other than yourself?

seriously, it seems like we're in a nursery!

jin

Mr Rid
10-21-2007, 12:27 AM
...This is not something to ridicule

And here I thought ridiculous things were worth ridiculing.


You can post all of your objections you want but that still doesn't make it right ...


More imposing of encompassing morality. I guess you were appointed to the task as Andrew was.


I do not like organized religion (pretty much at all) but I can still respect that others believe.

As long as they keep it to themselves and particularly dont bring it into the work place.


Just because he made an error doesn't give you the right to put him down

Andrew's EULA continues to put everyone down who does not synch with his narrow beliefs. Fairplay.


... you should apologize to Andrew. He started this because of his honest convictions,

'convictions' that remain as offensive and narrow-minded as ever. Already posted what I think of them.



... you continued it with plain and simple ridicule.

...with a sense of humour. If people like Andrew had more of one, this thread would not even exist.


Others here have done a rather good job of discussing this rationally and because of that we apparently have all come to an understanding.

Far from "all." Again, you speak for 'everyone.'


Had this thread contained crap like that contest it might not have come to such a mutually benficial conclusion.

I dont feel benifited in the least. Andrew is entirely out of line. I think he needs to remove all reference to religious 'convictions' from his EULA. One could argue it is still unlawful.

StereoMike
10-21-2007, 10:27 AM
I guess you're totally out of line, sorry, Mr Rid, but I've seldom read so much intolerant BS.

That's why this forum worked so good:
Without politics and religion we were able to focus on arts and CGI. Easy to talk about and get consensus. Now we're talking about religion and it's obvious that this discussion can't be settled. It was obvious right from the start. Sadly some of you ignored or didn't see that and decided to make this thread a mess, even after Andrew edited the EULA. Pathetic.

Again, this forum is only a peaceful place as long as we avoid discussions about politics and religion.

mike

manholoz
10-21-2007, 10:57 AM
I don't want to stoke the flames, but isn't the christian spirit supposed to be about "love your neighbour"?
I don't see too much neighbour loving...
And anyway, the U.S. of A. has "In God we trust" printed in it's currencies, so technically, all the business there has something to do with God anyway, right?

OK back to topic.

3d-brush seems like a very nice app. I also have zbrush (for a month), which I bought for 3d painting and some sculpting, but me bieng mainly involved in archviz work, zbrush 3dpainting, depending on subdividing the mesh to get 3d painting resolution to a workable level, is not very suited to texture, say, walls, or floors, or stuff like that.

Or maybe I'm too newbie in zbrush. But I have tried painting without subdividing in zbrush, and the results are not too nice. And in 3d-brush without any subdivision, 3d painting is a real possibility, if you have nice uvmaps.

3d-brush certainly looks like it can do this type of work effortlessly. I might end using 3d-brush for my paid stuff, and zbrush for my hobby stuff. Which makes zbrush an expensive toy.

My point here is, I saw no reference in the 3d-brush website to architectural work, and it is a market which a tool like this can certainly help out quite a bit.

ben martin
10-21-2007, 11:11 AM
And here I thought ridiculous things were worth ridiculing. ... ... I dont feel benifited in the least. Andrew is entirely out of line. I think he needs to remove all reference to religious 'convictions' from his EULA. One could argue it is still unlawful.
Respectfully to you and all the others that just shown up to beat on a dead horse (religion):

Don’t you people have anything else more interesting to do?

ahhh forget it! I'm out of this!

AndrewShpagin
10-21-2007, 11:22 AM
3D-Brush is good at first for characters creating. The problem of architectural modeling it that complete UV-map have a big square. I have used 3d-Brush for buildings in my game - to calculate occlusion shadows.

The one possible way to use 3D-brush for architecture -
1) Create model of building in LW (without texturing, only assign UV-set)
2) Import it into 3d-Brush without smoothing with adaptive subdivision and paint big details on first uv-set (3D-Brush supports only one uv-set).
3) Import it into LW and set tiled textures on second uv-set.

Have you tried 3D-Brush for architectural painting? It is interesting to look some work in this area.

beverins
10-21-2007, 12:26 PM
Ok Mike, I will look SDK, but now my first task - LWO export. So I have included it in feature request list. Thank you for purchasing! :) Tomorrow I will have some rest after difficult week.


I have to say that I am so happy you are putting in LWO export. Thank you so much!

Lightwolf
10-21-2007, 12:31 PM
Again, this forum is only a peaceful place as long as we avoid discussions about politics and religion.
And modo - or XSI, OSX, Vista, Linux and pets ;)

Cheers,
Mike

ben martin
10-21-2007, 12:46 PM
I just bought this software!
It looks great!

Nevertheless I just stumbled on a small problem that is related with geometry (LWO import) to the last (beta) 3D-Brush (3d-brush-2-01F-en).
The geometry is badly subpatched/subdivided when imported to 3D-B.
Just check the images to understand what I mean.

Any of you just noticed such problems or its just me?
(Before you suggest I already reported this do Andrew)

Ztreem
10-21-2007, 12:53 PM
That looks really strange.

jin choung
10-21-2007, 01:14 PM
maybe it will only be a peaceful place if religion and politics are not discussed.

too bad andrew doesn't realize this. again, he's the one that opened the pandora's box.

jin

IMI
10-21-2007, 01:47 PM
If we're scoring comments, I give Megalodon a 10 for this one. :D
I was trying to think of something to say regarding Rid's little personal war he has going on here, but everything i came up with sounded almost as nasty, so I didn't. megalodon said it all for me.

Except for the thing with jin - that I don't care about one way or the other. I think you all should apologize to me, just for the hell of it. It'll make you feel better. ;)

jin choung
10-21-2007, 01:48 PM
I really don't like religion at all, but making fun of others' beliefs is not conducive to productive discussion.


that might be a valid point. but the point that you and others are NOT getting is that someone telling you how you ought to think and be is NOT CONDUCIVE TO PRODUCTIVE DISCUSSION EITHER.

and i DID read the thread.

i know you're not tellinig ME to apologize. i'm asking you, why are you telling ANYBODY to apologize. they will do or not according to their own compass.

who made you karma police?

jin

p.s. and yes, her hitler hair doo is indeed making me feel ill.

Iain
10-21-2007, 01:58 PM
p.s. and yes, her hitler hair doo is indeed making me feel ill.

9.5/10

Iain
10-21-2007, 02:12 PM
Understanding of why he did it and the FACT that he has amended it SHOULD allow you to understand. Apparently not?


I understand why he wanted to do it but I still can't equate a license agreement with religion or moral stance.
It would only be even remotely appropriate if the software was aimed at an exclusively like-minded group, which it wasn't.

It has been amended but it still contains material outwith the remit or jurisdiction of a software vendor.
To my mind, an EULA should contain legal terms in the best interests of the vendor and user and they should be logical terms they are both comfortable with.
Anything other than that probably just wouldn't stand up in court, never mind anything else.

ericsmith
10-21-2007, 02:28 PM
I think it's worth noting that Andrew was not the one who started all this ruckus. Somebody else saw the comment in the EULA and commented on it here (actually, it all started in the zbrush thread, but...)

So now a few people have gotten their knickers all twisted because they somehow feel he's forcing his belief down their throats. No one should be able to tell you how you can or can't use something you own, right? How dare he, right? Except now you're trying to dictate what he can or can't do with the thing he created, and owns.

Considering the fact that there is no law in any country that states you must buy and use his program, how is he oppressing you? How is he forcing his beliefs on you?

And considering the fact that there's really nothing to stop you from buying the software and using it for whatever you want, why do you feel it so neccessary to publicly ridicule him and his beliefs?

Eric

2BitSculptor
10-21-2007, 02:32 PM
If there is a point which is beyond apology, we have reached it.

Apology is only of value if it is uncoerced, thoughtful and reflective from ones own realization of misconduct or inappropriateness toward another.

Andrew is apparently not responding to anything other than software performance relevant issues.

If any software is not suitable for anyone's use, for what ever reason, it is their decision to use it or not, against their own convictions if need be. The option clearly is to use some other software. There need not be a rallying of reinforcements to publicly denounce the software developer and his convictions, just don't buy or use the software.

If someone inquires about your decision, then is it difficult to simply explain that you merely have differences of opinion on ethics and personal convictions?

I vote for peace.

Chuck

Iain
10-21-2007, 02:54 PM
I think it's worth noting that Andrew was not the one who started all this ruckus.



What about all those who spat coffee on their monitors after downloading the demo and being curious about a little tab called "Your responsibility" wherein we were reminded that even thinking erotic thoughts was commiting adultery and that the author really wanted us to be reconciled with god?

Oh, Andrew started it all right.

Every time someone posts here saying why don't you all just shut up about this, someone will reply with "Well......."
And on and on it will go.

IMI
10-21-2007, 02:58 PM
I think it's worth noting that Andrew was not the one who started all this ruckus. Somebody else saw the comment in the EULA and commented on it here (actually, it all started in the zbrush thread, but...)


Yeah, that'd be me. I didn't start it, but I was the one to post the paragraph in the ZBrush thread. I just thought it was unusual, and meant no harm by doing it. I certainly had no idea it would turn out like this, else I wouldn't have done it.
Some might say to that, you shoulda figured, but I didn't, and for the record I feel terrible for ever having done it.
Somebody else probably would have, but that doesn't matter.

You can bet I'm going to be more careful with what I bring to this forum from now on....

Mike_RB
10-21-2007, 03:05 PM
p.s. and yes, her hitler hair doo is indeed making me feel ill.


You've just invoked Godwin's Law, this thread is dead.

Mr Rid
10-21-2007, 07:30 PM
Why must you make fun of his deep, relligious convictions? So he may be wrong, why be nasty?

All I can see is you complete intolerance of anything religious.

What I have a complete intolerance for is ignorance particularly self-induced and infecting creative matters. So much ignorance just happens to be rooted in religious spew. Not to mention the never-ending history of hatred and violence perpetuated by religious fanatacism of all the major religions. I have good friends who are 'Christian' but they have the intelligence and decency to keep their personal beliefs to themselves unless asked. And they sure as hell dont try to impose them legally, or in the workplace or in artistic endeavor.

These people just dont get it. Your religious beliefs are just your personal views. They are NOT reality. When you start acting as if they are, this is where all the wars begin.

Andrew's original 'Your Accountability' License Agreement was about as stupid a thing as I have ever seen and was unconscionable. For anyone who would associate themselves with the the conjuring or condonation of such jaw-dropping ignorance, my Respect slider gets dragged into the negative values. I dont care what the 3-D Brush EULA has been modified to. Attempting any moral or legal restrictions on art or use of a tool as being arbitrarily 'lewd' or 'obscene' or any other adjectival aesthetic judgement you care to name is utterly meaningless and ignorant.

Which answer best describes the following image,
51375

A- Lewd
B- Obscene
C- Erotic (how drunk must one be)
D- Instructional
E- Creepy
F- Funny
G- All of the above

The answer? Whichever one you choose.

There are no rules in art. Basically the new EULA says 'do what thou wilt' which users would do anyway. So what is the point?


Yes, it may be inappropriate to have this sort of thing in a EULA, but that is not YOUR call. He has lost a sale to you. Because he has amended it I will now buy it.

He's already burned a lot of sales. And am sure that profit motive has nothing to do with Andrew's humble changing of the EULA.

Andrew still has yet to explain the immorality (naked men) and hate-based imagery (guns) and war game credits (propagandizing of hatred against people) on his very own website, so what is the point of the EULA? There isnt one.

In my best conscience, I could not sit by, nor condone yet another attempt by the deformed moral majority to inhibit artistic expression. It is an assault on my core creative right. And I will continue to stomp on puritanical ******** as it rears it's hypocritical head. Hasnt the world endured enough of it.

Mr Rid
10-21-2007, 07:40 PM
Yeah, that'd be me. I didn't start it, but I was the one to post the paragraph in the ZBrush thread.

No, the people at 3-D Brush like Andrew Shpagin started it. It would have come up anyway and screamed to be addressed.

RedBull
10-21-2007, 08:25 PM
No, the people at 3-D Brush like Andrew Shpagin started it. It would have come up anyway and screamed to be addressed.

People like Andrew Shpagin also developed his own software, and thus he has every right to sell it under the terms and conditions as he sees fit to...

As a potential customer you have every right not to use his software if you disagree with it's license agreement, (as with any software these days)
If your not interested in abiding by his agreements, than you have the choice of using ZBrush or Mudbox or one of the other sculpting applications.
Or perhaps better write your own competing sculpting software with a less restrictive license agreement, that you may sell without any restrictions that you seem fit. All of these things seem like solutions rather than endless whining.

But as far as I'm concerned and many others here, Andrew is the developer of the software, he has changed some of terms in the agreement, which better suits many people here, and has added .LWO support at the request of LW users. Apart from that it's his code, his hard work and his beliefs. Quite frankly your opinion of his beliefs and software are completely irrelevant to anyone but yourself. If your beliefs don't coincide with his, than perhaps you should learn to respect each others opinions and move on to some other sculpting software. This is the third thread, covering the same useless diatribe that has added nothing of value of interest into any of those threads.

jin choung
10-21-2007, 09:39 PM
You've just invoked Godwin's Law, this thread is dead.


lol, i had to google it... hilarious. yep, the simpsons alone proves it correct. i believe there are ancient forums carved in hieroglyphics (or cuneiform... i forgot) that mentions hitler.

btw, fyi - it's a reference to lyrics in the radiohead song, "karma police" - hence the non-sequitorish addendum. iain got it. (didja get in rainbows iain? how much, if anything didja pay? i paid $10... FRICKIN AWESOME ALBUM - every track! lots of syncopation and play with rhythm... 3rd track is a waltz... ha!)

Iain
10-22-2007, 01:41 AM
In Rainbows is superb.

I paid £5. Cd's here are roughly £9-£11 but I dont feel bad as I'll buy it on cd when it comes out.

DiedonD
10-22-2007, 02:03 AM
It's rather obvious that NO ONE thinks it was appropriate OR funny. Okay, ONE PERSON in about the 40 posts since found it funny. The majority of the rest did not. .

Right that would be me. But at the "contest" , Rid was shooting bullets on air. Back then he wasnt beeing precise, and leaving no space for other means of interpretation like he did later on. Back then he was shooting at a 3D Brush and Religion, where no people are involved. Because of that vacuum and freedom there, it seemed funny and amusing, just how awsome he did it all.

Later on, it got personal. He was attacking Andrew himself, mentioning his name directly, and then, sorry to say it Rid, theres just no room for misinterpretation, and youll bare the concequences of those HIGHLY CREATIVE attacks.

So, to sum it up in simple words. It was magnificent when there was no person involved. It got too bloody when a person got mentioned.

jin choung
10-22-2007, 02:30 AM
I paid £5. Cd's here are roughly £9-£11 but I dont feel bad as I'll buy it on cd when it comes out.

i wouldn't feel bad at all... nobody's taking a cut, it's all theirs... those 5pounds are probably more than they ever made from records sold under a label....

jin

Mr Rid
10-22-2007, 04:46 AM
Was it right that he put his convictions in the EULA?

Dunno, it's just meaningless in any form of 'agreement' and downright hysterical that anyone takes themselves this seriously in a EULA- 'Accept Jesus as your savior... click 'OK' :foreheads


Still you insist on taking it back to your problem with the EULA

Just trying to stick with the root of the issue. Andrew's EULA discriminates religious preference among users. Who here thinks that's just a super idea?:thumbsup: And that Andrew should sit in judgement on the personal intentions of each user of his software. Who thinks every 3D software company should get in on this? ;D Who can explain what the term 'God' is doing in the middle of any agreement? What will all the other Gods think? How are war and guns on the 3D-Brush site exempt from 'propagandizing of hatred or violence?' No contradiction there. Anyone come up with a way to define when a 3D model, animation or effect is being associated with something 'lewd' or 'obscene' yet? Aside from some not sharing my sense of humour, I've not read a single objection to any of the specific points I have made regarding 3-D Brush or beliefs.


- and not the real problem that most people are having with your "contest" post. The fact that it was making fun of his belief.

Making fun of his delusions of saving us all. We all have our 'necessary illusions.' If you are going to lay yours out in a license agreement for the world to click 'OK' on, then you might wanna prepare for some critique.

Perhaps you didnt notice, the problem with his belief and his EULA are one and the same, seeing as Andrew has neatly blurred the roles of software vendor and missionary into a license agreement.:angel: its kinda difficult to ridicule one without making ridiculing the other.


It's rather obvious that NO ONE thinks it was appropriate OR funny.

Hell, they arrested Lenny Bruce.

I admit, that original EULA was a tough act to follow.


Okay, ONE PERSON in about the 40 posts since found it funny.
Actually there are a few who stated amusement here, and others elsewhere.


Face it, what you believe may be correct, what you said in that post was not.
You'll have the last word Mr. Rid... hopefully it will be introspective.

Your horse is certainly higher than mine.

archijam
10-22-2007, 05:38 AM
It's rather obvious that NO ONE thinks it was appropriate OR funny. Okay, ONE PERSON in about the 40 posts since found it funny. The majority of the rest did not.

I found it came a bit late (swinging after the bell had been rung), but HILARIOUS. I just didn't feel the need to post about it, till you put words in my mouth (and most likely others). Please don't do that.

j.

akademus
10-22-2007, 06:38 AM
4.1 The 3D-Brush software should not be used in the production of any lewd or obscene materials as well as of any products which propagandize hatred against people. We understand that we are not able to check you, this is on your conscience, but we warn you about responsibility before God.

These are not just his convictions, they are also in spirit of Orthodox Christianity. You've been warned, but it's still up to you. No one will judge you , well, no one on this world.
He also has responsibility before God (according to his beliefs, which must be respected!) to warn you that software he created could be used in creation of inappropriate materials such as pornographic or obscene imagery.
We all know the difference between art and obscene, don't we? I'm sure we do :)

I do not see why there is so much debate over this. You surely won't go to see :devil: because of this piece of software. (You'll go for something else :) )

jaf
10-22-2007, 07:41 AM
Interesting discussion, and that's a good thing.

Could you imagine a storekeeper who worried about the potential use of the pencils he or she sold? Or if Microsoft put the EULA like Andrew's on Notepad?

Seems to me there are plenty of ways to express one's beliefs. I suspect Andrew could use his Web site for that purpose instead of the EULA (since he stated the EULA didn't hold any legal threat concerning what he considers lewd or obscene, etc....)

Okay, I'm not writing what follow to make fun of Andrew -- I happen to agree with much of what he's said. But could you imagine a cartoon with Adam and Eve standing next to a computer and 3D-Brush substituted for an apple? And Eve saying "Adam, draw it, draw it!"

The apple was just a prop.

theo
10-22-2007, 08:27 AM
I found it came a bit late (swinging after the bell had been rung), but HILARIOUS. I just didn't feel the need to post about it, till you put words in my mouth (and most likely others). Please don't do that.

j.

Yeah, I thought it was funny, as well, but Rid inserted the humor at the wrong place in the discussion which came off incredibly tactless, to me.

Mr Rid
10-22-2007, 11:02 AM
4.1 The 3D-Brush software should not be used in the production of any lewd or obscene materials as well as of any products which propagandize hatred against people. We understand that we are not able to check you, this is on your conscience, but we warn you about responsibility before God.

Precisely what I was making fun of.

How many like the idea of this statement being in a license agreement? Anyone... Bueller?

What if it were contained in Newtek's EULA? LW would not have been used on 300 or Sin City- movies exploding with hatred, violence and obscenity (am trying to think of a major theatrical release where LW was used more extensively than in Sin City).


He also has responsibility before God (according to his beliefs, which must be respected!))

Nope, not necessarily. Particularly not when beliefs tread on the freedoms of others, just as christian doctrine has done for centuries (and today). Not to mention the millions that have been slain in the holy causes of all religions. Not nice. Religious beliefs are often not well informed or based on any actual facts and can therefore easily wind up woefully misguided.

Am reminded of the time a man walked into one of the video stores I managed and asked if we carried The Last Temptation of Christ. I explained that the owners wouldnt allow us to carry it due to the controversy. He said he didnt really care personally, but would let his wife know...? Turns out their church was boycotting our stores because they heard we were carrying the movie, which we werent. Stupid.

What's even dumber is when I had to cross picket lines to see the film in the theater originally. I had a discussion with some of the angry christians outside. Not one of them had actually seen the film, and the points of protest they heard were in the film, were not even actually in the film. Futhermore, I read of a screening for a panel of bishops and cardinals all of whom found nothing wrong with the film and said it was 'faith reassuring.' So what were these people all upset about? Nothing more than their own little dark thoughts.

The beauty and the profanity are all in the mind of the individual.


We all know the difference between art and obscene, don't we?

Aw, isnt that naive. You make the mistake of believing that what you see as right or wrong at any given moment is what everyone else sees or should see, when there really is no such thing *gasp*! It is all subjective. You can not define or limit what is 'obscene' anymore than you can define or limit what is 'art' or what is 'funny' or 'good' or 'boring.' These vague adjectives would hold no water legally. You must be much more specific to enforce any rules. For instance, 'erections and penetrations' is a legal phrase to define what types of movies may be illegal to rent or sell in a particular state (like Texas where I used to manage videostores). Blur or edit out the erect male organ or wherever it might be seen entering the female ****** and the movie is no longer legally 'porn' no matter what the rest of the content.


I do not see why there is so much debate over this.)

Freedom of creative expression. I dont take little erosions of personal freedom lightly. You shouldnt either.

Did you know that in the US that prides itself so much on freedom, filmmakers are not free to make movies however they want. Almost all movies wind up altered to appease the censors at the MPAA- a few anonymous people who determine the outcome of every movie released in the US. What's worse is the MPAA offers no guidelines for filmmakers to follow to avoid wasting huge amounts of time and money shooting scenes that will only have to be cut. Even after being stamped with an undesirable rating, the MPAA will not inform which scenes have to be altered in order to receive a different rating so the film has to be resubmitted several times. And an element that may be deemed PG in one movie could be labeled R in another or NC-17 in another. This is because it is impossible to define the rules about what is 'offensive' or not. Its all just moral fascists ********.

Check out the documentary, This Film Is Not Yet Rated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTL3XMDwY0c&mode=related&search=Film%20Rating%20MPAA%20movie%20trailer%20ce nsorship

Funny, 'R rated' trailer- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDqxuGlxbWc

*Pete*
10-22-2007, 11:31 AM
Did you know that in the US that prides itself so much on freedom, filmmakers are not free to make movies however they want. Almost all movies wind up altered to appease the censors at the MPAA- a few anonymous people who determine the outcome of every movie released in the US.[/url]


cencorship is not only in the US, its everywhere and for a very simple and logical reason...no need to explain it even.

we really dont need to show our kids, or anyone else for that matter the ultraviolent death scenes or prolonged and realistic torture...if it doesnt have much to do with the story, we can be without it.


but when it comes to force happy endings into movies that really are supposed to have a sad ending..it goes too far.

NTComm
10-22-2007, 11:58 AM
Discussion of the techniques for use of 3D-Brush in conjunction with LightWave 3D is on topic for this forum. Debate of the product maker's choices in the EULA for the product is not, nor the social topics that derived from that.

Thread has run its course, and is closed.