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pumeco
10-02-2007, 01:58 PM
I'm just wondering if there's ever been any hint's from NewTek that maybe we'll see a BodyPaint equivalent inside LightWave. The reason I ask is more out of concern than anything really.

I've always had an interest in marketing strategies, and like to keep an eye on what I know will effect me some day. I can tell you that being an 'ex' Maxon customer and becoming a 'new' NewTek customer wasn't exactly the most comfortable decision I've ever made regards software. I'll be blunt here, I think NewTek have the worst marketing in this industry. No disrespect to NewTek intended - it's just my opinion. But what really concerns me though is that companies like Maxon (who certainly DO know how to market) appear to be moving in for the kill, and I'm not entirely sure NewTek can see this as well.

Just in case you're wondering what I'm going on about - it's like this:

Maxon have been marketing BodyPaint for years now. Not only to Cinema4D users, but also to the rest of them (LightWave users included). Now, doing this has allowed BodyPaint to make it's mark on the industry - but it's also done something which perhaps (until recently) many may not be aware of.

The recent change to their structure has confirmed something that I had always suspected. BodyPaint now comes with a free Cinema4D core (I saw this one coming many years ago). Now why are Maxon doing this do you think? Well, that's an easy one. No matter which program is our chosen app, we still have to buy BodyPaint if we want to paint onto multiple seamless maps in 3D.

This is a dangerous situation for NewTek.

It's dangerous because people who buy BodyPaint will 'now' also have Cinema4D - and people having Cinema4D is certainly NOT good news for NewTek. What might start out as an innocent "I want BodyPaint for 3D painting", can quickly turn into a "Hey, Cinema4D is cool - bye bye LightWave".

I know, I know. Maxon has a terribly unfair upgrade system, and NewTek simply rock in this area. But try telling that to some noob who just bought BodyPaint and got Cinema4D for free. I'm telling you now, it's not going to be easy to part him with cash for LightWave. That's not the worst of it. My next prediction is that these free 'link modules' that force BodyPaint to work in sync with LightWave are going to STOP - period. Maxon are in a position not to care whether you like it or not - because you've got no other option but to buy BodyPaint anyway (it has no competition).

So, a BodyPaint killer please, NewTek. 3D Painting is probably the most important tool to a 3D artist after the main app itself. Don't underestimate what Maxon are doing, and in my opinion, will continue to do. They can make life a lot more difficult for you guy's than you probably realise. And if you don't sort this out, I'm pretty sure that soon enough, THEY will.

Don't let 'em, I love LightWave. This is my permanent app of choice now, and I want to keep it that way :thumbsup:

pumeco
10-02-2007, 02:26 PM
...as far as NT marketing... U have to have something to market other then bugs.

Oh but they do. They ought to be pushing the fact that LightWave comes with a lot more than Cinema4D does 'out of the box'. They ought to be exposing what is extra in Cinema4D, it's extra cost's, and the fact that their costly plugins rarely last for more than a development cycle before the're broken from the latest core. They also ought to be pushing some of the gob smackingly real renders that are coming from this community, and putting up a feature and price comparison list.

They ought to 'Market' LightWave!

bobakabob
10-02-2007, 03:20 PM
Oh but they do. They ought to be pushing the fact that LightWave comes with a lot more than Cinema4D does 'out of the box'. They ought to be exposing what is extra in Cinema4D, it's extra cost's, and the fact that their costly plugins rarely last for more than a development cycle before the're broken from the latest core. They also ought to be pushing some of the gob smackingly real renders that are coming from this community, and putting up a feature and price comparison list.

They ought to 'Market' LightWave!

Agreed... C4D might be quality, but running the core app along with add ons can be very expensive. And from what I gather Maxon's upgrade policy is not as generous or flexible as Newtek's.

lardbros
10-02-2007, 03:53 PM
Newtek's marketing strategies to make me wince... especially for the fact that they do hardly any themselves to be honest, (although, it has grown in the past year) but also that they leave much of it down to us lot. I was browsing through YouTube today, and typed in Lightwave to have a look at some of the stuff.

The community video that Exception edited and added stuff to is there, and is simply INCREDIBLE. But, shouldn't the Newtek guys be doing their own stuff and posting it on these "free advertising" sites?? That's what i want to see. i used to remember Newtek's stunning showreels, which i still have copies of somewhere, and these are what brought me to Lightwave in the first place.

Please Newtek, get some dedicated marketing guys, and please do a good job. All of the guys at my workplace think Lightwave is still old hat, and use 3dMAX without question. Even if something cool like Fprime is shown to them, they assume (seriously they do) that it'll be coming out in 3dMAX soon.

I want people to know about all this stuff. Even paying for a feature spread in 3dworld or HDRI3D simply on what LW has to offer, would pay dividends!

Fingers crossed!!!!

bobakabob
10-02-2007, 03:56 PM
Newtek's marketing strategies to make me wince... especially for the fact that they do hardly any themselves to be honest, (although, it has grown in the past year) but also that they leave much of it down to us lot. I was browsing through YouTube today, and typed in Lightwave to have a look at some of the stuff.

The community video that Exception edited and added stuff to is there, and is simply INCREDIBLE. But, shouldn't the Newtek guys be doing their own stuff and posting it on these "free advertising" sites?? That's what i want to see. i used to remember Newtek's stunning showreels, which i still have copies of somewhere, and these are what brought me to Lightwave in the first place.

Please Newtek, get some dedicated marketing guys, and please do a good job. All of the guys at my workplace think Lightwave is still old hat, and use 3dMAX without question. Even if something cool like Fprime is shown to them, they assume (seriously they do) that it'll be coming out in 3dMAX soon.

I want people to know about all this stuff. Even paying for a feature spread in 3dworld or HDRI3D simply on what LW has to offer, would pay dividends!

Fingers crossed!!!!

Agreed... Whatever happened to the advertorials in 3D World? They were genuinely good...

lardbros
10-02-2007, 04:08 PM
Agreed... Whatever happened to the advertorials in 3D World? They were genuinely good...

Oh yeah, they were superb. I popped over to Newtek-Europe the other day too, and they still have their cool interviews. Shame they're slowing down a bit. maybe they've run out of people to interview??

RedBull
10-02-2007, 04:14 PM
Just in case you're wondering what I'm going on about - it's like this:
Maxon have been marketing BodyPaint for years now. Not only to Cinema4D users, but also to the rest of them (LightWave users included). Now, doing this has allowed BodyPaint to make it's mark on the industry - but it's also done something which perhaps (until recently) many may not be aware of.

The recent change to their structure has confirmed something that I had always suspected. BodyPaint now comes with a free Cinema4D core (I saw this one coming many years ago). Now why are Maxon doing this do you think? Well, that's an easy one. No matter which program is our chosen app, we still have to buy BodyPaint if we want to paint onto multiple seamless maps in 3D.

This is a dangerous situation for NewTek.

It's dangerous because people who buy BodyPaint will 'now' also have Cinema4D - and people having Cinema4D is certainly NOT good news for NewTek. What might start out as an innocent "I want BodyPaint for 3D painting", can quickly turn into a "Hey, Cinema4D is cool - bye bye LightWave".

So, a BodyPaint killer please, NewTek. 3D Painting is probably the most important tool to a 3D artist after the main app itself. Don't underestimate what Maxon are doing, and in my opinion, will continue to do. They can make life a lot more difficult for you guy's than you probably realise. And if you don't sort this out, I'm pretty sure that soon enough, THEY will.

Don't let 'em, I love LightWave. This is my permanent app of choice now, and I want to keep it that way :thumbsup:

I think your making the assumption that Bodypaint is somehow a major threat to LW, well like many other applications LW is just a tool that needs to be used in conjunction with other tools to be a viable production entity...
Bodypaint is just an extension to this and when people need to paint maps they use Photoshop, conversely if you want to paint in 3D you use BP. Including it in C4D is hardly a surprise (especially now with Modo)
Bodypaints main problem is it's price, so including it in C4D makes much sense.

The amount of time and effort to write a complete painting system into LW is a huge task, and one NT should of done many years back when DeepPaint3D hit the market. And Aura/Mirage already had a HUB connection to LW.
I'm surprised Mirage never developed the idea really. (as it was there)

Regardless i will continue to use BP3D as it's simply the best system for 3D painting, it really doesn't bother me who makes the best painting application.
As long as it works well, and compared to Modo and ZBrush, Bodypaint is just a joy to use..

Technically as LW is a supported host application, and .lws is supported in C4D, i think it's only a valuale assett to NT and LW users, not a threat.
Today smart artists use the best production pipeline they can, it's not about brand loyalty it's about features, ability and implementation..

I think perhaps with your Ebay add for C4D, and your BP/C4D fears, perhaps your 2nd guessing or regretting your LW buying decision, when you see where C4D is going?

pumeco
10-02-2007, 04:32 PM
Please Newtek, get some dedicated marketing guys, and please do a good job.
I'd put my marketing shoes back on just for them if they're interested. I'm perfectly serious. I'd work on a comission basis - so they'd have nothing to loose. They listen to me in private - they sell more LightWave, simple as that. If they don't sell more - I don't get a thing - they loose nothing - I loose face.

LightWave can sell a lot better, even in it's current state.

lardbros
10-02-2007, 04:36 PM
I'd put my marketing shoes back on just for them if they're interested. I'm perfectly serious. I'd work on a comission basis - so they'd have nothing to loose. They listen to me in private - they sell more LightWave, simple as that. If they don't sell more - I don't get a thing - they loose nothing - I loose face.

LightWave can sell a lot better, even in it's current state.


I'd hire you if you didn't get 'loose' and 'lose' mixed up!!! :o) :thumbsup:

Sorry, just being pedantic!!

pumeco
10-02-2007, 05:12 PM
I think perhaps with your Ebay add for C4D, and your BP/C4D fears, perhaps your 2nd guessing or regretting your LW buying decision, when you see where C4D is going?

Absolutely not. There have been times when I've regreted buying LightWave, but that was in the early learning stages. More out of frustration with coming from a totally different app, and not understanding LightWave more than anything. A perfectly natural reaction, but one that has disappeared. I can assure you I have no regrets in selling Cinema4D - it's good software, but it's not for me.

It's funny really. The only reason I ended up with Cinema4D in the first place was because they knew how to market it to me. I started of at a cost of just 200 - and then it grew from there. The reality is that ever since I owned an Amiga, I've wanted LightWave. Of course I could not afford it back then, and unfortunately, still could not afford it when Cinema4DXL6 went for 200. It had nothing to do with customer loyalty, and everything to do with getting a professional app at a price I could afford.

Result = NewTek lost - Maxon won (not just me - but thousands of others).

Like I said, NewTek have the worst marketing in the industry in my opinion. The simply have no idea of what strings to pull, and perhaps worse, what strings not to. Do you remember Commodore? Not only did they have the best 8Bit on the market but also the best 16Bit.

The fact that such a company can go from not one but TWO best selling computers and dilute to nothing, is a perfect example of why NewTek need to admit they're doing something wrong - and bring in those that can do it right. NewTek do kick a*s 3D software, but what NewTek do not do - is kick a*s marketing. This is something that is blazingly obvious.

Commodore could not rest on the loyalty of their customers - nor can NewTek.

pumeco
10-02-2007, 05:13 PM
I'd hire you if you didn't get 'loose' and 'lose' mixed up!!! :o) :thumbsup:

Sorry, just being pedantic!!
Why, thank you sir :D

bobakabob
10-02-2007, 06:06 PM
Absolutely not. There have been times when I've regreted buying LightWave, but that was in the early learning stages. More out of frustration with coming from a totally different app, and not understanding LightWave more than anything. A perfectly natural reaction, but one that has disappeared. I can assure you I have no regrets in selling Cinema4D - it's good software, but it's not for me.

It's funny really. The only reason I ended up with Cinema4D in the first place was because they knew how to market it to me. I started of at a cost of just 200 - and then it grew from there. The reality is that ever since I owned an Amiga, I've wanted LightWave. Of course I could not afford it back then, and unfortunately, still could not afford it when Cinema4DXL6 went for 200. It had nothing to do with customer loyalty, and everything to do with getting a professional app at a price I could afford.

Result = NewTek lost - Maxon won (not just me - but thousands of others).

Like I said, NewTek have the worst marketing in the industry in my opinion. The simply have no idea of what strings to pull, and perhaps worse, what strings not to. Do you remember Commodore? Not only did they have the best 8Bit on the market but also the best 16Bit.

The fact that such a company can go from not one but TWO best selling computers and dilute to nothing, is a perfect example of why NewTek need to admit they're doing something wrong - and bring in those that can do it right. NewTek do kick a*s 3D software, but what NewTek do not do - is kick a*s marketing. This is something that is blazingly obvious.

Commodore could not rest on the loyalty of their customers - nor can NewTek.

Pumeco, how are you finding Lightwave by comparison to C4D?

You could tell Maxon were going for Newtek customers and they did a good job with their marketing. Give them credit they did their research on what Lightwavers wanted e.g improved animation, hair and cloth. Pity Shave and Haircut became a Maxon module it was a brilliant Lightwave plugin. The trouble is whilst C4D is a solid very well designed app IMO it simply isn't as intuitive as Lightwave and has become too expensive to maintain.

RedBull
10-02-2007, 06:26 PM
I can assure you I have no regrets in selling Cinema4D - it's good software, but it's not for me.

Cool, i wasn't having a go or anything I just i looked at your tag when i posted and thought perhaps you were a bit worried about your investment, and it's a quite natural reaction to have as you said. When others are always moving forward and NT cannot seem to even promote themselves.


The simply have no idea of what strings to pull, and perhaps worse, what strings not to. Do you remember Commodore? Not only did they have the best 8Bit on the market but also the best 16Bit.

Hey your preaching to the choir :) I've even see the Open Beta (which is a good thing) leave LW word of mouth at an all time low. And without the advertising and marketing of people with much deeper pockets, they will find it hard to compete. But i would still prefer it went to development than marketing, however marketing brings in money which helps with development.. :)
Luxology have done well in marketing, and Brad is a good evangelist and you can see the difference that advertising has made for them, it's given them the ability the keep advertising and increasing sales at the same time.

But there is only so much you can do with the budget your given.
The penalty is if your budget isn't high enough, than your ROI won't be either.


Commodore could not rest on the loyalty of their customers - nor can NewTek.

Agreed..

adamredwoods
10-02-2007, 08:28 PM
Didn't Lightwave recently lose their evangelists?

Kurtis, William Vaughn?

lardbros
10-03-2007, 02:11 AM
Didn't Lightwave recently lose their evangelists?

Kurtis, William Vaughn?

Lose them??? Now that's a bit bloody careless!!! Who on earth will do it now??

They haven't gone to Luxology have they?!

pumeco
10-03-2007, 08:32 AM
Pumeco, how are you finding Lightwave by comparison to C4D?I'm finding LightWave was the one of the best purchases I ever made CG wise (the other being ZBrush). I think with these two, you can do absolutely anything, and to any standard you wish. They're both unconventional in their approach, but after struggling with both, it's perfectly clear to me that I made the right choices with both of them. Now that I have these two, I can scale down and get rid of what have become surplus programs. Carrara got refunded, Cinema4D got sold (just last night), and I no longer have to use for Silo or Hexagon (who's licences are now both for sale if anyone's interested).

I'm sure that'll give you an idea of how I'm finding LightWave :thumbsup:

LightWave has it all. A superb modeler which allows you to work with numeric precision. Soft, hard, and cloth dynamics. Hair, powerful non linear animation, and Hyper-Voxels. Cell shading, and of course that awesome renderer and it's equally awesome surfacing abilities. The only thing it doesn't have is sculpting and painting, but I have them both in my companion to LightWave - ZBrush (which also happens to be well supported by LightWave).

To me it's a perfect combination - bloody bliss I tell ya.

I'll be honest, it wasn't always like that. There was a moment where I actually started to think I might be able to replace LightWave with Carrara (yes, thing's were THAT bad). But then, just in time I decided to look into creating my own LightWave interface, and hell - that was the best thing I ever did. What started out as a struggle, evolved into using LightWave quicker than I've been able to use any other 3D package.

As for Cinema4D; It's a good, solid, and dependable package. But it's ruined by it's modularity and it's unfair upgrade structure. Cinema4D cannot be compared to LightWave because with an equivalent feature set - it cost's nearly four times more than LightWave. And even with a full feature set, Cinema4D's output is still not as impressive as LightWave's.

Comparing LightWave to Cinema4D isn't really that simple. While they're both competing products on one level - they're not on another. Price wise 'and' feature wise, LightWave runs rings around Cinema4D. LightWave also has a superior renderer - and to this day I 'still' feel it's the best on the market.

The guy who just bought my Cinema4D has an incredible bargain due for delivery. But I have to wonder if he'll be so enthusiastic when the Maxon marketing emails arrive in his inbox. Cinema4D is good if it does 'everything' you want it to in the first place. As far as upgrading it concerned, it's my opinion that you're either very rich or very gullible if you do so. In anger, I stated over two years ago that I would not be falling for their disgrace of an upgrade path any longer.

I'm pleased to say - I never did - and will never touch Cinema4D again.


Cool, i wasn't having a go or anything I just i looked at your tag when i posted and thought perhaps you were a bit worried about your investment, and it's a quite natural reaction to have as you said. When others are always moving forward and NT cannot seem to even promote themselves.No prob's, I know you wasn't having a go :)

As for the marketing though, I do think some of you are missing the point here regarding the dangers BodyPaint can pose for NewTek. It's not the fact that a 3D painting program can cause problems for them, it's the fact that this 'particular' painting program just also happens to come with a 'free' competitior to LightWave. NewTek don't have to fear Modo or ZBrush, because none of those app's are self contained studios. Cinema4D however, especially when bundled with the best 3D painter on the planet, is not only a self contained studio - it's more than that.

It's not only Newtek that need to fear this - but they're the only one I'm concerned about.

Remember, whether you use the basic edition of Carrara or a fully loaded LightWave - we'd all love a painting program like BodyPaint. And BodyPaint just happens to come with a free Cinema4D core designed to 'bring you over' no matter what you're currently using. Believe me, that's a powerful position for them to be in, and a bad one if you're not Maxon.

lardbros
10-03-2007, 09:01 AM
Well, that's very interesting to read.

I love Cinema 4d simply because the free version I got on the front of 3dworld magazine was valid for a competitive purchase of LW8!!

So basically, i installed it for that reason only and have never used it. Sure the renderer is super fast, but who wants speed, when Newtek have the most beautiful renderer available. (It still is in my opinion!)

Go Newtek, i say...

One of the main reasons i have always liked Lightwave is the community. I use 3dmax at work and have run into MAJOR issues with surface baking GI and Ambient Occlusion. I posted a question on the 3dMAX forum, and over at CGTalk, but haven't had a single response. Gutted. As far as i can tell, it's a bug in max, but we don't have an internet connection to our work machines (just have one stand alone) so i can't mail them a support question.

PLUS... Lightwave uses a more brute force method of doing things. It may seem awkward at first, but i have been baking textures in LW, and it's workflow actually has me quite impressed. It works, and it hasn't failed on me yet. Plus if i could afford FPrime, you can even see your baked maps rendering in realtime!! So many reasons why LW is superb, but it can only get better!

10-03-2007, 09:08 AM
I see nothing wrong with C4D's pricing nor their module approach personally. Feature and toolset wise, I'm putting it beside other full studio apps like Max, Maya, XSI, Houdini. Comparatively it looks just as capable as any of those, especially the latest release. And with bodypaint included into the core, yes, it certainly does offer something unique over other programs. I doubt LW can do hair on the same level as C4D, nor cloth, nor rigging or animation work - all areas that maxon has focused exclusively on in the last couple years. At least with the modules, if you don't want something, you don't have to pay for it.

pumeco
10-03-2007, 09:18 AM
@ lardbros

Not to rub it in but I've got FPrime, and I never even knew you could do that. I'll have to try that. I hope you can afford FPrime soon, and if it's any help - I can tell you it's certainly worth every penny. I can hardly keep the smile of my face sometimes when I'm using it :thumbsup:

It's a shame the various plugin developers aren't on the LightWave team to give this stuff as standard.


@ [email protected]

It's true I don't have to buy, and as an experienced ex-Cinema4D owner I can tell you I certainly won't be - never again :tsktsk:
Well, not unless I start suffering sudden spells of insanity, anyway.

JensD
10-03-2007, 09:56 AM
I am a C4D and Lightwave user. In my opinion C4D (I own the 9.6 Studio Bundle) is a great application with a fair price (at least compared to Maya, XSI, Max).
But like all other 3D softs C4D has its flaws, which are mainly:

- The inbuild renderengine is weak, it creates this unnatural plastic look and it takes a lot of time and patience to work against that (But there are powerful alternatives: VRay an FinalRender Stage2).

- The materialsystem is arkward. It is, compared to LW, much harder to get the results you want.

- Pyrocluster (C4D-Hypervoxels) are a pain to set up and are not even close to Hypervoxels quality-wise.

- Dynamics are simply unusable in most cases.

- The standard particlesystem is weak and Thinking Particles are great but it takes a lot knowledge and time to set them up.

In my opinion the strong points are:

- Workflow. I think C4D is one of the easiest apps to learn and use.

- Characteranimation is really good now (NLA still missing), as is animation in general (everything can be animated).

- Hair (developed by Maxon by the way) is great, as is cloth.

- Mograph is simply brilliant for the Motiongraphics people.

- Strong timeline in Version 10.

- Bodypaint is great.

Of course the above is just my personal opinion.:)

pumeco
10-03-2007, 11:22 AM
And I agree with most of that opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing at all against Cinema4D or Maxon, although you'd be forgiven for thinking otherwise. I think their software is first class, and the Maxon team are a great bunch to deal with, pleasant and understanding. But that's not the reason for this thread, which was out of curiosity as to whether a painting function has ever been hinted at for LightWave.

Who knows, if Maxon weren't hell bent on extracting every last penny they possibly could from their upgrade structure - I'd likely still be a purchasing customer. It's not so bad perhaps if you were able to afford the complete bundle to start with, but if you couldn't - that - is where the Maxon system really starts to sting. I could take an hour to go into the complexities of how buying in modular steps is no good with this system. Because of that, I'm not going to bother.

I know for a fact, that no one who has tried to build their system from a core has not felt the unfair disadvantage of this system. There's no point me going into it because the people who have felt it know 'exactly' what I mean. The sad fact of the matter is that Maxon will continue to do this for as long as they can get away with it. The only time it will change is if companies like NewTek get their act together and make LightWave 10 an absolute killer of an update.

I'm hoping the lack of marketing from NewTek is down to the fact that maybe they don't want to promote LightWave in it's current state - but would rather wait until LightWave 10 is ready for business - then - drop a bombshell and move in for the kill. At the moment though, it's almost as if everyone else has their own little gimmick to draw in the customers - but NewTek couldn't care less. I hope I'm right in thinking that to be so cool about this - NewTek must be sitting on something 'extra' cool and 'very' special.

Let's hope so :lightwave

Oh, almost forgot...

If NewTek 'do' have something up their sleeve, I hope they're not going to do something stupid like raise the price - because this would be a prime moment to lower it, and pull in the customers. NewTek need to shake of this unapproachable LightWave image they have given many artists. This is a perfect opportunity to say , hey, things are different now - take another look.

BAMMM!!!

adamredwoods
10-03-2007, 12:22 PM
In regards to Lightwave 3D painting...

in the LW SDK, they recently added the ability to create a new image from scratch. Add a little modeler UI to this and you could paint directly onto your mesh.

There's also the UVChalk plugin...

So Lightwave has the capabilities, someone just has to create it.

IMI
10-03-2007, 06:21 PM
I do pretty well with painting textures in Zbrush 3.1 and it's a lot cheaper than BodyPaint - and needless to say, it does so much more :)

And then there's that other 3d application that has great UV tools and good texture painting tools as well :hey:

You mean MS Paint 3D? ;)
I didn't even read this thread past that quote, but I just had to reply to that. I've been using BodyPaint 3D (standalone version) for a few months now, after several years of using DeepPaint 3D, but have not used either since upgrading to ZBrush 3 [.1]. There's no real need to that I've seen yet.:)

meathead
10-04-2007, 12:44 AM
Newtek has offered other applications when you purchase LW.

In the past they gave you Vue (a serious version of it too, not some basic, need to buy more, piece-o-crap) and LW cad, which is pretty much a loved, indispensable plug for all LWers around here.

Now they are offering SpeedEdit with a LW 9 purchase or upgrade.

Speededit is the real deal; I have never picked up a piece of software so fast. I do not even open Adobe Premiere anymore. A videographer that I work with, stumbles with his overpriced Avid system while I crank out video. It's so intuitive, especially if you are coming from a VT background, but even a LW background helps the SE learning curve. The program works in a 3d space similar to LW. One of the many advantages of buying software from the same builder.

That being said, I see your point, they need to market this stuff to the 3d/CGI world. I receive lots of mailers from them, but, I am already a customer!?!?! They need to convert the "others."

Sande
10-04-2007, 01:04 AM
Hmmh, gotta say I've never cared much about those 3D painting-thingies. I've tried Deep Paint 3D in the past, Zbrush and that slow 4-letter app that Neverko probably meant, but I have always preferred working with my textures in their natural habitat - Photoshop. From my (limited, I admit) experience you can do some doodling and sketching with those and it doesn't matter much if you don't know how to create UV-maps properly, but that's about it...

monovich
10-04-2007, 11:07 AM
at this exact moment I'm about to evaluate Modo for the first time because of the painting, and to a lesser degree the sculpting features...

gerry_g
10-04-2007, 01:54 PM
Hmmh, gotta say I've never cared much about those 3D painting-thingies. I've tried Deep Paint 3D in the past, Zbrush and that slow 4-letter app that Neverko probably meant, but I have always preferred working with my textures in their natural habitat - Photoshop. From my (limited, I admit) experience you can do some doodling and sketching with those and it doesn't matter much if you don't know how to create UV-maps properly, but that's about it...

Whoa!! seriously disagree, that four lettered worded app has speeded up my uv'ing like nothing else, it's relax uv function is a godsend and yes I can uv just fine without it and still prefer to do my texturing in PS come to that, but lets face it, fit is never one hundred percent and being able to tweak it and prevue it in the round is a something else, not to mention the ability to deal with seams or paint bump in 3D, both this app and BP3D_3 are amazingly useful to own.

Sande
10-04-2007, 02:11 PM
Whoa!! seriously disagree, that four lettered worded app has speeded up my uv'ing like nothing else, it's relax uv function is a godsend and yes I can uv just fine without it and still prefer to do my texturing in PS come to that...
We may have a bit of misunderstanding here - I've no doubt Modo's (ups, I said it) UV mapping-tools are good (although I feel LW with PLG Tools is pretty decent also), but I was not impressed with that painting part. Trying to paint medium poly model was very sluggish and cumbersome + I felt it was lacking in tools and blending modes...

jayroth
10-04-2007, 02:20 PM
Didn't Lightwave recently lose their evangelists?

Kurtis, William Vaughn?

Kurtis has moved on to other things, but I think we will still see him in the community once he gets settled in. William is still active with NewTek, and is quite prolific in the community.

bobakabob
10-04-2007, 04:43 PM
Jay,

Good to hear but the perception, certainly here in the UK is that there is very little promotion of Lightwave of late. The 'advertorials' in 3D World were of a very high standard - informative well illustrated and entertaining. Any chance of them making a return?

Btw, refreshing to have such mature debate and Kudos to the Newtek team for giving space to discussions of Lightwave in relation to other apps.

BeeVee
10-05-2007, 02:01 AM
Watch this space... ;)

B

Anti-Distinctly
10-05-2007, 02:14 AM
...All of the guys at my workplace think Lightwave is still old hat, and use 3dMAX without question. Even if something cool like Fprime is shown to them, they assume (seriously they do) that it'll be coming out in 3dMAX soon...

Very silly. I started a thread ages ago pondering why Worley hasn't developed for other platforms. Not that I really want him to, but it seems like an enormous cash cow to sit on. I guess some people think that all apps are, or within a short amount of time will be, equal, as they're all trying to keep pace with one another. Can't be dealing with 3dsMax though.
Make them buy you a lisence somehow! With the cost of 3ds max it'd be a drop in the ocean...

lardbros
10-05-2007, 03:04 AM
Very silly. I started a thread ages ago pondering why Worley hasn't developed for other platforms. Not that I really want him to, but it seems like an enormous cash cow to sit on. I guess some people think that all apps are, or within a short amount of time will be, equal, as they're all trying to keep pace with one another. Can't be dealing with 3dsMax though.
Make them buy you a lisence somehow! With the cost of 3ds max it'd be a drop in the ocean...


I would for them to buy me a license, but i just don't think they ever would. I'm having some MAJOR issues texture baking in MAX and it's really getting stupid.

Tried rendering out a 768x768 map of a ceiling, in a model which is lit with GI and standard lights, and it's taking upwards of 2.5 hours to render! Crazy crap... i could do that in lightwave perfectly in about 5-10mins. The ambient occlusion is naking with errors too and MAX's end result baked textures don't look anywhere near like they do in a normal render, so having to take each map over to photoshop afterwards is a real killer too.

What i have been thinking is taking my own dongle into work and just installing my copy, but they may not like that? We're looking into getting VRay now, so maybe that has some baking options?




Watch this space...

B


Watch this space for what?? The advertising type marketing stuff???
Looking forward to it if it is!?!? YAY

cresshead
10-05-2007, 03:09 AM
Even if something cool like Fprime is shown to them, they assume (seriously they do) that it'll be coming out in 3dMAX soon.


well there's a plugin/preview renderer in beta NOW for maya and soon for max and xsi so the days ARE numbered for fprime being the only option for realtime previewer of radiosity etc.

cresshead
10-05-2007, 03:11 AM
Watch this space... ;)

B

we've been watching 'this space' since lightwave 8.0:devil:
when's the agressive advertising going to start?
...i'm HOPING when the ''character studio killer'' that was hinted for lightwave 6.0 finally surfaces in lightwave 9.5:D

lardbros
10-05-2007, 03:15 AM
well there's a plugin/preview renderer in beta NOW for maya and soon for max and xsi so the days ARE numbered for fprime being the only option for realtime previewer of radiosity etc.


There's a standalone one too, they were showing off at siggraph by Hyperbunk or something. Called it hyperdrive, but it only uses it's own materials and it's own interface, shame really.

It will happen, but very surprised it hasn't happened sooner!

I can't imagine that the one for max would be integrated so well as to use all of max's mental ray materials etc. I don't use the standard materials for anything anymore. Lightwave is great in that fprime can preview most things, and especially the UV camera and all of the nodes. I was very impressed hearing that any node can work in FPrime, even the toon shader ones!

cresshead
10-05-2007, 03:35 AM
well the maya one uses mental ray so will the max and xsi one

lardbros
10-05-2007, 03:36 AM
well the maya one uses mental ray so will the max and xsi one

Wow, im impressed!!!

Anti-Distinctly
10-05-2007, 04:02 AM
...
What i have been thinking is taking my own dongle into work and just installing my copy, but they may not like that?...

Just install your own copy at work. Nothing wrong with that and maybe it'll filter into their brains that LW is quite capable :D Can't see why they wouldn't let you. Most people now accept that 'studios' don't just use one app, but use the strengths of many. Trust me anyway, your customer doesn't care what app it was done in, I've had people get in touch with me to do animations for them (which they called 'cartoons' :S) & stills, simply, I assume, because they like the output of others they've seen. Just do it, I dare you! :D

pumeco
10-05-2007, 07:52 AM
Newtek has offered other applications when you purchase LW.

In the past they gave you Vue (a serious version of it too, not some basic, need to buy more, piece-o-crap) and LW cad, which is pretty much a loved, indispensable plug for all LWers around here.

Now they are offering SpeedEdit with a LW 9 purchase or upgrade.
Funny you should mention Vue. A while back, a friend and I shared some emails of discussion on that very program. It's good that NewTek are bundling other software with LightWave, but then, there are good moves and bad moves. What they're doing now by bundling SpeedEdit with LightWave is a good marketing strategy, SpeedEdit being from the NewTek team and from what I've been hearing, a real Premiere killer as well. However, bundling Vue with LightWave (I think) was a bad idea. My friend is very much like me in that he's an experimenter. He's the sort of guy that get's excited at the prospect of material nodes and unusual rendering options (a material pervert as he likes to call himself). What's really creepy though, is that he's actually considering buying Vue Infinite over LightWave. He's impressed by the realism of it's renderer (which I have to agree - is superb). The thing is though, I can't imagine a better program than LightWave for the 'experimentally' inclined among us, not just in the materials and renderer, but other areas as well. It's an experimenters paradise, and for him to consider a glorified landscape generator over LightWave (no matter how good), to me, means there must be something seriously wrong somewhere. The price difference between these two is hardly worth mentioning, so you can't help but wonder if his decision might be coloured by things like :

An almost non existent out of date demo.
No bundled tutorials.
No quickstart to help understand the basics of the interface (how stuff is hidden etc)

I've taken a few opportunities to try and sway his thinking, but I can tell ya it ain't working. At the end of the day it's no skin of my nose no matter what he goes for. But you can't help feeling he's blind to some things regarding LightWave, and the reason for that is not himself - it's NewTek's lack of 'efficiently' getting accross the real power of the program. If this was done properly, I really don't think he'd even consider Vue Infinite over LightWave (even if he doesn't believe that himself).


Watch this space... ;)

B
Hey thanks BeeVee - I look forward to that BodyPaint killer built in to LightWave 10 then :hey:
Yeah right :D

Ztreem
10-05-2007, 09:41 AM
What i have been thinking is taking my own dongle into work and just installing my copy, but they may not like that?

The best thing with LightWave is that you can have it on a USB stick and execute it from that, no need for installation. :thumbsup: :)

bobakabob
10-05-2007, 09:50 AM
Funny you should mention Vue. A while back, a friend and I shared some emails of discussion on that very program. It's good that NewTek are bundling other software with LightWave, but then, there are good moves and bad moves. What they're doing now by bundling SpeedEdit with LightWave is a good marketing strategy, SpeedEdit being from the NewTek team and from what I've been hearing, a real Premiere killer as well. However, bundling Vue with LightWave (I think) was a bad idea. My friend is very much like me in that he's an experimenter. He's the sort of guy that get's excited at the prospect of material nodes and unusual rendering options (a material pervert as he likes to call himself). What's really creepy though, is that he's actually considering buying Vue Infinite over LightWave. He's impressed by the realism of it's renderer (which I have to agree - is superb). The thing is though, I can't imagine a better program than LightWave for the 'experimentally' inclined among us, not just in the materials and renderer, but other areas as well. It's an experimenters paradise, and for him to consider a glorified landscape generator over LightWave (no matter how good), to me, means there must be something seriously wrong somewhere. The price difference between these two is hardly worth mentioning, so you can't help but wonder if his decision might be coloured by things like :

An almost non existent out of date demo.
No bundled tutorials.
No quickstart to help understand the basics of the interface (how stuff is hidden etc)

I've taken a few opportunities to try and sway his thinking, but I can tell ya it ain't working. At the end of the day it's no skin of my nose no matter what he goes for. But you can't help feeling he's blind to some things regarding LightWave, and the reason for that is not himself - it's NewTek's lack of 'efficiently' getting accross the real power of the program. If this was done properly, I really don't think he'd even consider Vue Infinite over LightWave (even if he doesn't believe that himself).


Hey thanks BeeVee - I look forward to that BodyPaint killer built in to LightWave 10 then :hey:
Yeah right :D

Agreed. The LW demo should have a Quickstart guide + tutorials + content.

There are ridiculously intuitive learners out there but someone new to LW faced with an imposing blank grey screen is likely to either feel pretty useless, become frustrated with the software or try another demo...

Some well crafted models and scene files and a range of basic, intermediate and advanced tutorials would really show off Lightwave's potential...

The Messiah demo has all of the above (a searchable html manual combining tuts) which really does make you think positively. I'm close to blowing $299 as the package is so impressive... The witty and informative tutorials allow you to create impressive results quickly and the animateable content is superb.

manholoz
10-05-2007, 10:31 AM
As to bundling Lightwave with Vue...

I NEEDED vue for it's ecosystem thingies, but i WANTED a high-end 3d app. I'ld been working in 3dsmax from high scool years, and it got boring. And I had always wanted Lightwave since Amiga times. But I had no real need for it. (I tecnically still don't need it, I just use it when my other 3d app starts begging for mercy with things that are a breeze to do in Lightwave).

So I got Lightwave thanks to Vue.

The thing is, the more my work approaches high end stuff, the more I rely on Lightwave. For me it is not a faster workflow using Lightwave (and this could be my fault for not knowing Lightwave too well), but that it simply can get any job done. OK, so I don't do character animations or furry thingies, so I don't know how Lightwave is lacking in those areas.

But my experience so far has been that, whatever you throw at Lightwave, it just gives you back quality results without too much pain involved. I even won a dvd on a contest thanks to Lightwave and I barely knew the app!

Anti-Distinctly
10-05-2007, 10:43 AM
SpeedEdit's that good eh? Was there a special offer for that for people who already own Lightwave?

pumeco
10-05-2007, 12:58 PM
@manholoz

That's good news, and it's great you're finding you depend on LightWave for the high-end stuff. That's just the sort of quote NewTek need to be publicising I reckon (among other things). As for that competition you won with LightWave, you have my deepest respect. It took me a fair while to get the hang of things, and I'm guessing a lot of other users wouldn't be as persistent as others. I can understand anyone giving up on LightWave within the first 20 minutes the way things are at the moment. The one's that don't give up are the ones that reap the reward :thumbsup:


@Anti-Distinctly

I've not read a single bad word about SpeedEdit. Apparently it performs really well on basic spec machines as well. However, the more I read about how good it is, the more annoyed I get. When I bought my LightWave I was lead to believe I'd be getting a copy of SpeedEdit. Instead, I ended up with SubDo which is no use to me - and has never been opened. I was going to complain about it at the time but I was so caught up in trying to learn LightWave - I forgot about it. Nothing I can do though now, I've had it over thirty days so I doubt NewTek would do anything now.

Plus, I keep telling them their marketing is cr*p - so I'd be nut's to ask about SpeedEdit. I'd likely get a SpeedKick up the arse instead :D

AbnRanger
10-08-2007, 07:13 AM
I would for them to buy me a license, but i just don't think they ever would. I'm having some MAJOR issues texture baking in MAX and it's really getting stupid.

Tried rendering out a 768x768 map of a ceiling, in a model which is lit with GI and standard lights, and it's taking upwards of 2.5 hours to render! Crazy crap... i could do that in lightwave perfectly in about 5-10mins. The ambient occlusion is naking with errors too and MAX's end result baked textures don't look anywhere near like they do in a normal render, so having to take each map over to photoshop afterwards is a real killer too.

What i have been thinking is taking my own dongle into work and just installing my copy, but they may not like that? We're looking into getting VRay now, so maybe that has some baking options?




Watch this space for what?? The advertising type marketing stuff???
Looking forward to it if it is!?!? YAYCheck out finalRender Stage 1 R2. It's what I use, and it's just about the fastest GI renderer I've seen, and works amazingly well with most every Max plugin (unlike Mental Ray)....especially the new Adaptive Quasi-Monte Carlo.
http://www.finalrender.com/products/products.php?UD=10-7888-35-788&PID=36
If you can supply me with a stripped down Max scene, time the render you get, and I'll try it with finalRender, and compare notes...if you'd like

lardbros
10-08-2007, 03:05 PM
Check out finalRender Stage 1 R2. It's what I use, and it's just about the fastest GI renderer I've seen, and works amazingly well with most every Max plugin (unlike Mental Ray)....especially the new Adaptive Quasi-Monte Carlo.
http://www.finalrender.com/products/products.php?UD=10-7888-35-788&PID=36
If you can supply me with a stripped down Max scene, time the render you get, and I'll try it with finalRender, and compare notes...if you'd like

I don't mind MentalRay too much for rendering, it's imply texture baking where MAX takes an age. It's pathetic... LW simply uses a camera, whereas max tries to be far too clever and do it some other way that seems to take around 20times longer than a normal render of the entire scene. That's just baking one small map.

Unfortunately all of my work is at my work and we're not allowed/not able to get it out on CD or any other media... i'll knock something up at home though, to see what happens. Could be an interesting comparison