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sean hargreaves
09-29-2007, 01:45 PM
Can anyone please tell me how to get my FPrime resolution to match what I dial in on my camera and render global settings?

For example,
1)I set my camera frame width and frame height at 4000pixels x 2000pixels. 2)I render using Fprime. I even pull the FPrime window so its as big as it will display on my screen.
3)I save as a PSD file.
4)I open the image in Photoshop and its 1024 x 719 pixels. It should be 4000 x 2000 pixels.

What is happening here, and how do I equal the sizes?

clumsycloudy
09-29-2007, 01:52 PM
use fprime render, not the previewer, its a different command. I have both commands under hotkeys, if i am satisfied with the preview i render it out with fprime render. Its faster, has more functionallity (eg DOF, motionblur) and has no display. You can set the amount of renderpasses in its window. Look in your hotkeylist and do a search on 'fprime' you should see it.

sean hargreaves
09-29-2007, 02:05 PM
Thanks Clumsycloudy. That worked. But I can't see the rendering render, which know is what the previewer is for. Do I therefore set everything up using the previewer, and once I'm happy with lighting and framing do I close the previewer and do my final render using just the RENDER tab?

clumsycloudy
09-29-2007, 02:10 PM
you got it, thats the deal.. Setup things with previewer, then render out with render. Its really cool, it has the ability to continue where you stopped, and it saves after every pass. Ps the larger you render, the less passes you need..

ric

sean hargreaves
09-29-2007, 02:43 PM
Thanks Ric, much appreciated!

sean hargreaves
09-29-2007, 05:07 PM
Ok, so I'm rendering in FPrime, but it saves at Quality 1.000, then 2.000, etc. When I check my saved image everytime after it saves it looks the same, and somewhat noisy. I had my render settings to Endlessly Refine. Now I changed the settings to Stop At Level 20, but what is Level 20 on the Quality level?

Somewhat confused.

toby
09-29-2007, 08:16 PM
Good Evening Mr. Hargreaves. :)

I'm not an Fprime guru, but I can give you a vague idea - 20 passes sounds like medium-high quality, depending on the scene, but noise is somewhat problematic for FPrime, I once switched back to LW's internal renderer for just that reason. It was a very noisy rough bump that I was trying to render smoothly, and Fprime couldn't clean it up after 30 passes. Aggravating this is, as I hear it, the number of passes in the previewer does not equal the number of passes in the renderer.

At the same time I've seen some perfectly smooth renders done in Fprime, I just don't know if they dealt with the noise another way, or had no noise in the first place. I'll try to find a link.

What kind of noise are you dealing with, shading noise/radiosity, a texture map, or a procedural?

ingo
09-30-2007, 04:03 AM
To the somewhat confused guy : If its an outdoor rendering i normally stop it around level 9-12, maximum is level 15, that is for high resolution print renderings like yours. Indoor can be a bit more tricky, but maximum is still 15 for me, all at standard lighting quality (me thinks it is 0.5 ). Indoor renderings sometimes need a de-noiser like NeatImage.

archijam
09-30-2007, 07:40 AM
In my experience it TOTally depends on the resolution of the image and lighting of the render, as to decide the required level.

I would do the following:
- Make a medium sized fprime window.
- Zoom in on a minute part of your image (small as possible in final image, but that needs to still be sharp).
- Let it run and keep an eye on the levels, and note when it gets to an acceptable quality
- Use this level as your aimed level (or round it up to the nearest 0 or 5)

j.

Captain Obvious
09-30-2007, 06:05 PM
Keep in mind that the quality level displayed in the FPrime previewer is approximately ten times higher than the quality level in FPrime render. Ie, when the previewer's quality ticker reaches 100, that is approximately the same as FPrime render to quality 10.

robk
09-30-2007, 06:14 PM
Level 10 is what we normally render an exterior render to. Interiors as mentioned are a little more tricky. You may never elimnate all the noise on an interior render.
Also levels in the fprime previewer vs the Fprime renderer do not relate to each other at all.

Rob Klein
Liquid Light 3D Graphics

sean hargreaves
10-01-2007, 02:07 PM
Thanks for all your comments guys,
I realized that after level 20 there is'nt that much difference. I'm rendering a large interior image 4000 x 2000, and I let it cook to level 40, but after I checked the image I saved at level 20 against the final image at level 40, there surprisingly was'nt that much difference, if at all. It is a car in a building, so there are smooth surfaces, reflections, 1 area light above.
Captain Obvious, is that true, that the previewer ticker at 100 is the same as level 10 in the renderer? Thats incredible, and of course, confusing. Why dont they just program it so its the same and you know where you are when you're watching the render window numbers tick up?

nils
10-01-2007, 03:43 PM
Also, did you check out the "Art of Noise" article on Worley's website? Was pretty helpful to me.

http://worley.com/E/Products/fprime/man_noise.html

Matt
10-01-2007, 03:47 PM
I'd love to know why the decision was made to make the passes/render quality number that increments in the previewer is different to that when rendered to disk.

Just confusing, why not make them the same!?! Then you could preview a small part, see where it got to that looked okay, then you could dial in that number if you weren't using 'Endlessly Refine'.

archijam
10-01-2007, 04:04 PM
I coulda sworn that's the way it worked .. (x10 factor willing)

Ok, no more advice about plugins that I used to use but can not afford to own myself .. :P

j.

Sande
10-01-2007, 04:46 PM
If your rendering looks the same at level 20 as it looks on level 40, you have probably set the lightning quality too low. It takes a bit of practise to set it right, but on scenes which you know to be heavy on the lightning and prone to have noise problems, you usually should set it higher than the default 0.5 - in most of the cases 10-20 passes are then enough.

You find the lightning quality setting under master plugins/fprime.

sean hargreaves
10-01-2007, 05:11 PM
Ok, so the default is 0.5 for lighting quality. Am I to then set it to 0.10 or 10.0 for 10 passes? The reason I ask is 0.5 is 1/2 of a pass if 1.0 is one pass.

Captain Obvious
10-01-2007, 05:49 PM
Also levels in the fprime previewer vs the Fprime renderer do not relate to each other at all.
Yeah, they do. FPrime previewer and FPrime render work basically the same way; they render the image over and over again with some slight noise variation and blend them together. There are some differences (for example, the FPrime previewer applies some kind of noise reduction, and doesn't render motion blur), but generally speaking, they're the same. In FPrime render, the current quality level is displayed as an integer part representing the last finished pass and a decimal part representing the portion of which the current pass is done. Basically, if the quality level is 5.75, it means that you've got five finished passes (the same as 5 levels of anti-aliasing in the perspective camera, or enhanced low in the classic) and it's three quarters of the way through on the sixth pass.

With the previewer, however, it only displays an integer, with the last digit representing the portion of the current pass and the rest the number of passes. The amount of noise with the quality ticker at 200 will be approximately the same as in FPrime render at quality 20. Not exactly the same, because they seem to use different random sampling methods and pixel filters, but they are fairly close. You can get a very good idea of what quality level you need to render to just by looking at the previewer.




Ok, so the default is 0.5 for lighting quality. Am I to then set it to 0.10 or 10.0 for 10 passes? The reason I ask is 0.5 is 1/2 of a pass if 1.0 is one pass.
Lighting quality * quality level = final quality. An image rendered to quality level 100 with a lighting quality of 0.1 should have approximately the same amount of radiosity noise in them. However, that isn't really how you use the lighting quality setting. If you read Worley's "art of noise" * , it will explain most of it.


* http://www.worley.com/E/Products/fprime/man_noise.html

sean hargreaves
10-01-2007, 05:53 PM
Thanks Captain Obvious,

But what about lighting quality? I just punched in 10.0 on the FPrime master for lighting quality, and it takes forever to render. Someone said 10-20 is the best for lighting quality, at this speed though, its a wonder anything gets finished.

Captain Obvious
10-01-2007, 05:55 PM
This image explains most of it:

http://www.worley.com/Media/images/examples/fprime/FPrime_AON.jpg

sean hargreaves
10-01-2007, 06:03 PM
Wow Captain Obvious, thats helpful!! Those frame grabs were great!

Now, in the FPrime render window it has a box that says Stop At Level __.

If I type in say, 10. Is that 10 passes? I guess what I'm asking is, where do I control the number of passes...or can I?

Captain Obvious
10-01-2007, 07:35 PM
If you type in 10, it will render to quality level 10. Or you could let it endlessly refine, and just stop it manually when you feel it's at a high enough quality or you've run out of time. FPrime will save the image at every full quality level, letting you open it in an image viewer and have a look. You can even put a noisy, unfished image into Photoshop or whatever and start editing it while it's still rendering, and then swap it out for a high-quality version later on.

Sande
10-02-2007, 02:31 AM
I've always just left it "endlessly refine" - that's the beauty of Fprime. Like Captain said, you can start post processing after the first rough passes are done or show the client a rough version to get approval - and then just let it cook until it's done...

I'm a bit sceptical when it comes to relation between fprime previewer and renderer though, but maybe I should just test it myself when I have the time... :)

Phil
10-02-2007, 03:21 AM
Can anyone please tell me how to get my FPrime resolution to match what I dial in on my camera and render global settings?

For example,
1)I set my camera frame width and frame height at 4000pixels x 2000pixels. 2)I render using Fprime. I even pull the FPrime window so its as big as it will display on my screen.
3)I save as a PSD file.
4)I open the image in Photoshop and its 1024 x 719 pixels. It should be 4000 x 2000 pixels.

What is happening here, and how do I equal the sizes?

The previewer uses an OpenGL surface to display the output. Due to the memory required for this, the viewport is limited to 1024x768 (or thereabouts). Making the previewer support higher resolutions would impose major memory demands - instead, you have to use the non-interactive renderer to get higher resolution output.

Quantenschaum
10-02-2007, 04:07 AM
another cool method to get to know FPrime would be to read the Manual.
oh... you got a crack? then go to worley web page and read the online manual.

DOOOOH! ;-)

sean hargreaves
10-02-2007, 11:05 AM
Yes my Swiss friend, I am quite adept at manual reading when I get the manual. But Worley does'nt seem to want to send me one, despite my requests. Hence my questioning.

sean hargreaves
10-02-2007, 11:06 AM
and.....thanks for the tip about the online manual. :thumbsup: