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DiscreetFX
09-10-2007, 04:28 PM
Piracy is a big issue for the software industry, but to be quite honest it's nowhere near as huge as what the RIAA and MPAA and SBA make it out to be. 50% or more of the software pirated would never have been purchased in the first place. But lets talk about it a bit more personally here.

A DiscreetFX customer has brought to my attention a VERY large pirate warez site which I will not link to. They have cracks for almost everything imaginable. They have all our software on there with download ratios in the THOUSANDS. In many cases I find more downloads of our software on the warez site than total sales of certain products. I've calculated that even if we only lost 10% of sales to those downloads that could have been sales, it's a pretty major hit. The fact is that companies like DiscreetFX operate on a shoestring budget. Most of our software sells at a just break-even point. Some at a loss until it breaks even 1-2 years after introduction. DiscreetFX animators and programmers are paid up front and then receive royalties based on sales, so piracy hurts all around.

For the amount of money we have "lost" I could have *easily* had everything ported to Adobe Premiere only and made major upgrades or improvements. The NewTek market is much smaller than the Adobe market so piracy hurts much more here. I do love the NewTek market though and created my first product for the Amiga Video Toaster Flyer way back when (Pyromania). Fact is though I have had to put off hiring a great developer that was going to bring even more cool plug-ins to the NewTek product line. This is a major loss for you, the NewTek customer.

The fact is that piracy hurts those who pirate. They want our software obviously. Some just use it for a "test", and I understand that. In fact a few effects are offered for free from each collection for customers to try in their projects. Based on development costs we don't sell for a large amount of money. Animator's and programmers must be paid for their work.

Who here would care if there was never a DVE Director's Cut, Military & Aircraft FX or Spontaneous Combustion? The NewTek market has continued to grow with TriCaster, SpeedEDIT, TriCaster Studio and while I'm not naive enough to think its *all* about piracy, I know that it just makes me sad that our sales have not grown to reflect this growth. And no, we're not closing down and yes there will be upgrades of everything. And yes, piracy has been part of the software business from the very beginning but that doesn't mean I can't ask you to stop.

And therein lies my plea to you. If you actually use our software please pay for it. When you don't you personally are contributing to the financial downfall of a bunch of people who are working hard to make good quality software for you. If you don't want to think of piracy as theft, think of it as stiffing us. Would you stiff the waiter of a tip? How about the guy who built your house? How about the plumber or the electrician? Or the Taxi cab driver? And yes, software does cost money to make. I pay electric bills, Microsoft dues, travel expenses, trade shows, advertising, not to mention salaries. So if you wouldn't stiff the waiter at your favorite restaurant his 15% (or 10% if you're money conscious) tip, why stiff us then?

DiscreetFX has always been extremely liberal in our licensing as well. We don't use activation (we've thought about it), we don't lock our license to your username, we don't do anything to make licensing hard. We let you run our software on as many NewTek editing systems that you personally use and we use the honor system. We also personally use NewTek products ourselves to make the world a better place. Our film "Oil Change", There's A Killer In Your Food! will make the public more aware of the dangers of Trans Fat and save lives. This film is edited using NewTek products.

We also do free community stuff to show apprication of NewTek's long and rich heritage. We host the source-code to the Amiga Video Toaster Flyer for Amiga fans to download, study, & hack away on and enjoy. This important piece of coding history could have been lost if it was not for NewTek, Bill Evans and DiscreetFX. So that's all, if you want to support DiscreetFX please drop by our website or give us a call 1-800-852-0930. I Hope you have a great day!

Steamthrower
09-10-2007, 05:16 PM
Bill, I totally understand your plea. It's my opinion that those who make money off of pirated software are not only stealing but committing intellectual theft.

I feel sorry for you; however there's little that honest people can do. Besides stay honest.

MooseDog
09-10-2007, 06:17 PM
...there's little that honest people can do. Besides stay honest...

here here!

This won't make you're business life any easier Bill, but may give you some background. I was exposed to this sub-culture once through an intern at work. In talking to him about those types of sites and those who frequent them, and about what was on his own computer, apparently quite a few of those downloaders are also collectors. This kid had on his hard-drive (just to collect and share): Maya, Max, AE, Fusion, ULead, PS, LW, Houdini, Rhino, C4D, XSI, RF etc etc. He quite proudly told me he had over 300 packages available!! Of course he had no idea how to use any of them.

Which is not to discount the fact of those who use such warez professionally. Ethically bankrupt people imho.

It's a terrible feeling getting stiffed for hard, honest work. The greater reward in life is remaining honest.

Continued Success.

Steamthrower
09-10-2007, 07:42 PM
Ethically bankrupt people imho.

Great phrase, I need to use it more often. I know a guy who torrented Maya (among other things) and who went on and on about how totally amazing it was. He couldn't do anything on it though.

This is the somewhat harmless version of piracy, like MooseDog said. But it still remains to be said that some people (maybe even people reading these forums! :eek:) use warez and make money off of it.

It's kind of like running a trucking company and stealing diesel from the pumps.

GregMalick
09-10-2007, 08:07 PM
As a software developer, I totally relate to this pathetic situation.
I wish I had more than words of encouragement.



We are not alone.

RedBull
09-10-2007, 08:42 PM
A DiscreetFX customer has brought to my attention a VERY large pirate warez site which I will not link to. They have cracks for almost everything imaginable. They have all our software on there with download ratios in the THOUSANDS. In many cases I find more downloads of our software on the warez site than total sales of certain products. I've calculated that even if we only lost 10% of sales to those downloads that could have been sales, it's a pretty major hit.

The fact is that companies like DiscreetFX operate on a shoestring budget. Most of our software sells at a just break-even point. Some at a loss until it breaks even 1-2 years after introduction. DiscreetFX animators and programmers are paid up front and then receive royalties based on sales, so piracy hurts all around.

While I certainly feel your pain and understand and empathize with your situation. Piracy is obviously a much bigger issue for smaller companies and developers and tends to affect them more... However as you mention about the RIAA, and MPAA and there continual claims of lost revenue over piracy, and as you mentioned it's hard to put a number in actual dollar terms in what it may of or may not of cost you.

Even at 10% it's hard to claim that you are actually losing real paying customers on your product. (and I'm not saying you aren't or wouldn't be)
But if you do account for that, than also be aware that you have most likely increased your market awareness to a potential market that didn't know about you before.

How much does it cost to advertise to get those amount of downloads, and people aware of your products?


For the amount of money we have "lost" I could have *easily* had everything ported to Adobe Premiere only and made major upgrades or improvements. The NewTek market is much smaller than the Adobe market so piracy hurts much more here. I do love the NewTek market though and created my first product for the Amiga Video Toaster Flyer way back when (Pyromania).

I'm not sure how that would do anything but give you a larger potential userbase for sales and thus a far greater potential for piracy too.. So if you were to make assumptions to include money "lost", you would undoubtedly need to include a larger "lost" earnings forecast, given a larger market like Adobe.


Fact is though I have had to put off hiring a great developer that was going to bring even more cool plug-ins to the NewTek product line. This is a major loss for you, the NewTek customer.

Hmmm, I'm sad to hear your business isn't doing well and you've had to not expand and add new developers... (Nobody wants that) But i will add if your implying that you cannot expand due solely to piracy of your product, without knowing all the issues involved it's a big call to make, if that's true not many developers would be in business at all.... And the fact is there are quite a few. And piracy affects them all.

The fact that you yourself mention the Adobe marketplace being bigger, perhaps it would of been better to go for a larger market. (being a smaller developer). And this may of enabled you to grow larger more quickly.


The fact is that piracy hurts those who pirate. They want our software obviously. Some just use it for a "test", and I understand that. In fact a few effects are offered for free from each collection for customers to try in their projects. Based on development costs we don't sell for a large amount of money. Animator's and programmers must be paid for their work.

Totally agree, and let me make sure we are clear i don't in anyway support anyone selling or profiting from exchange or sale of any copyrighted material.
fair pay, for fair work...... If you make money from it, you have a moral obligation to give money too it! (I don't really care about the many stupid laws, but rules of morality I'm a stickler for.... :))

But I do understand the need and the desire for people to "test" and try software, to compare options to learn and educate themselves so they will one day be able to pay and buy the programs and content they need as professionals.. What i know from many years in the software industry, is that piracy hurts, and piracy helps.

Personally, LW 5.0 was given to me by a friend on a CD, with Autocad and dozens of other applications, I had never heard of LW, (I was saving for 3D Studio) but when i hit F9 and rendered that nice soft toy tricycle scene, it was 2x copies of LW 5.5 (from my local distributor) that were purchased, and a boat load of plugins and training materials from Safeharbor..

My point is that one pirated copy led to Tens of thousands of dollars of equipment and software and investment in time as a result, and I've spent years in and contributing to every aspect of this industry, i have led more people to LW than anyone i know, to where my local distributor sends me all the free NT stuff, NT allow him too... :)

If you account for 10% for lost revenue due to piracy, than personally i believe you must account for the 10% or better that gets returned in the long run, due to exposure and word of mouth and follow on.

Another saying that's being in this industry is "If it's not being pirated, it's not worth using" In a small professional 3D market, that is over-saturated by choice and underwhelmed by quality, Those people downloading your software would likely not be a customer, they would simply be downloading/using a similar competing application or be using the Adobe equivalent.

I believe professional hobbyists and pro level people, do have an honor and do pay for products that are worth paying for. (and I'm sure your products are that) I know Sensei (TruArts) had a similar problem in the last 12months...
So i sincerely wish you the best towards your future developments.


Who here would care if there was never a DVE Director's Cut, Military & Aircraft FX or Spontaneous Combustion? The NewTek market has continued to grow with TriCaster, SpeedEDIT, TriCaster Studio and while I'm not naive enough to think its *all* about piracy, I know that it just makes me sad that our sales have not grown to reflect this growth. And no, we're not closing down and yes there will be upgrades of everything. And yes, piracy has been part of the software business from the very beginning but that doesn't mean I can't ask you to stop.

I won't lie to you, until this post I've never heard of your company as i no longer use the Editbay and don't use the VT4 or Tricaster anymore. I only use Fusion and Vegas personally, So basically your post has just made me aware of your products, much like the people downloaded from the websites itself. I have now visited your website too... :)

And No! I don't think these piracy websites are a good idea. But kept out of the public eye, and only for die-hards who would want to spend time and effort looking for these things, than leave them be. Learn from the mistakes of the RIAA and MPAA, which has spent too much time and money trying to put genies back into bottles... Embrace what you cannot defeat!

But i think your more than entitled to ask people to stop pirating! :)


And therein lies my plea to you. If you actually use our software please pay for it. When you don't you personally are contributing to the financial downfall of a bunch of people who are working hard to make good quality software for you. If you don't want to think of piracy as theft, think of it as stiffing us. Would you stiff the waiter of a tip? How about the guy who built your house? How about the plumber or the electrician? Or the Taxi cab driver? And yes, software does cost money to make. I pay electric bills, Microsoft dues, travel expenses, trade shows, advertising, not to mention salaries. So if you wouldn't stiff the waiter at your favorite restaurant his 15% (or 10% if you're money conscious) tip, why stiff us then?

I think that's the point, there always will be that level of low-life that does have no conscious, no shame and no decency. (I know wayyyy too many) And don't bother trying to preach to them anyway.... You will waste your own valuable time and money.


DiscreetFX has always been extremely liberal in our licensing as well. We don't use activation (we've thought about it), we don't lock our license to your username, we don't do anything to make licensing hard. We let you run our software on as many NewTek editing systems that you personally use and we use the honor system.

License systems and product security is an issue that every commercial developer has to face and no one has mastered. Personally a small level of security is desired, to stop general direct copying by the mum/dad types, but using sophisticated keygens/licences schemes will only add to the price/complexity of development and be broken by the die-hard crackers and downloaders regardless... It's a complex issue...
Microsoft and Adobe are at the point where i would seriously prefer start using pirated versions rather than my legit paid for versions. And that's not a good thing.

I will leave my already too long post, with a couple of thoughts..

Recently in Australia our 3 major Television Networks, were losing massive amounts of viewers and advertisers due to the overwhelming amount of people downloading Heroes and similar US TV shows on P2P and BT as soon as it's aired on USA Television (or even before)... This has seen such a massive rise in recent years due to high speed internet and the disregard from our own TV Networks for not giving viewers what they want, when they want it. Last month all 3 announced due to better arrangements in syndication with NBC etc, that they will screen Heroes S2 at the same time as the US. The reason i make this point is because, it's actually piracy and BT that have given our Networks more opportunity and there viewers a better deal.

The music industry is full of the same lessons, RIAA have spent so much time trying to stop an evolution in music, nobody lost money.. Where the money is being made is now different, Apple now make a crap load more because IPODS and Itunes, standard music retailers will now make less, but Record companies have all recently learnt that DRM free music sells far more than restricted DRM. And even though anyone can download an .MP3 there is a market for both TV and Music to make money, and they are despite the piracy.

Also remember that cheaper prices do also help against piracy.
(as do demo versions to an extent) Internet Explorer was given away to stop Netscape, XSI FND was sold cheap to get hobbyists trained and enticed into Softimage products for a lesser price, the XSI Mod tool is effectively a form of piracy, except the company itself is giving the tools away. It's about increasing marketshare and gaining exposure.. And it works.

They follow the approach that it's better to have people using XSI, in some form, so one day those people are a profit making customer.

There is an upside or a follow on effect from Piracy, and it's not all or always bad.. This has been the long winded point I'm trying to make :)
I've actually spent a lot of time looking and analyzing this subject, when working for a large software development company. Hence the reason for my long but quickly (aka badly) written reply. And i could approach it from many POV's but i will stop with this one..

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction"

So i wouldn't be too disheartened to see your product being used, this way.. :) As i believe there is a good to every bad. Best of luck, with the future of your company and products.....

Render is done, Phew. That saved you guys from any more..
(Signed: Devils Advocate) :devil:

DiscreetFX
09-10-2007, 09:00 PM
Thanks for the long but nice reply RedBull.

:)

RedBull
09-10-2007, 09:14 PM
Thanks for the long but nice reply RedBull.

:)

Thanks and for taking it in a non-harsh way, I didn't want to come of in a pro-piracy POV (because I'm very much not), only offer a little balance into the mix of support..

Your points are very valid, I know it can be a bad feeling to see a website with your own products being stolen, but just try and remember that there is at least some positive that is likely to come from the bad, and it will be likely to rewarded somewhere down the line... It's easier to sleep at night knowing this... (at least for me) And i have seen it work from both sides.

Continued success with your products and company..
Cheers..

riki
09-10-2007, 10:00 PM
There's probably a lot of simple things you can do to reduce the problem. I was watching a training video the other day which had a message at the end. "If your friends want a copy of this video send them to peepcode.com and support our community". It puts the message in some peoples heads before they need to think about it.

Best of luck. Hopefully users with pirated copies will eventually buy in. For some positive spin. I guess there must be a percentage of paying customers who come to you though pirated versions.

*Pete*
09-10-2007, 11:15 PM
ten years ago, there was a time when i felt pride when saying that i didnt pay for any software that i was using, all was copied between friends.

it was mainly games, but some programs also.


but today, i honestly dont have any pirated software on my computer, if i get my hands on a program that feels to be too good to be for free, i check if it is illegal copy or not and delete it if it is.


why i changed so drastically?

i dont know for sure, but i suspect that i started to respect the people who program these things, and you dont steal from those you respect.

or i just grew up..im 32 today, and since the end of the amiga days i have gradually used less and less illegal copies.



if this is something in common for all people, those 10% sales you lost, will be sales for you, or other programmers in the future when those who used the copies start buying legal copies.

Thomas M.
09-11-2007, 01:50 AM
I totally understand your point, but you could see the pirated software also as some kind of advertising for the stolen product.

Usually students who can't afford to pay for software while studying, will do so after they finished their studies and budget for software is available.

Although it's not legal (and I totally agree that it's not o.k.), I hardly doubt that a company like NT e.g. suffers any losses from this kind of pirating. People in the amateur sector would have never ever bought the software in the first place and those who get used to a software and start to cherish this piece of code will very likely pay for it later, e.g. after they managed to get a first job done with it.

In LW's case piracy (with the positive effects I explained) might be even better for NT, gaining them new customers in the long term.

With Photoshop (something nearly everybody wants to use) and especially games it's for sure different.

So, you can be glad because there are some new customers who came from piracy or be upset about people who have the software on their HD, but never bought the software anyhow.

The real customers will always find their way to you.

Cheers
Thomas

P.S.: I don't have any figures to back up my opinion. I just believe that it's this way with specialized software (contrary to popular software).

Steamthrower
09-11-2007, 09:48 AM
I'll have to say honestly that DiscreetFX is very low-profile nowadays in the LW culture. I don't know of anyone who uses your products and so I'd have to side with Kopperdrake and say that you might need to reconsider your marketing methods.

Though I won't deny that piracy *does* hurt developers, especially small ones, it doesn't bankrupt them either. It might be worth a thousand bucks to get a web designer to update your site for you (plenty of the guys on these forums do web design and would be glad to help out with anything LW-related). If you consider the sites of your competitors you might see a discrepancy in presentation there.

I seriously hope the best, Bill!

Lightwolf
09-11-2007, 09:57 AM
I totally understand your point, but you could see the pirated software also as some kind of advertising for the stolen product.

To a degree that is true, but only to a small degree. On the other hand... I've seen studios happily use cracks in production (and no, not because they didn't like the licensing scheme but still paid for the license - which I'd understand).

Cheers,
mike

DiscreetFX
09-11-2007, 11:25 AM
Though I won't deny that piracy *does* hurt developers, especially small ones, it doesn't bankrupt them either. It might be worth a thousand bucks to get a web designer to update your site for you (plenty of the guys on these forums do web design and would be glad to help out with anything LW-related). If you consider the sites of your competitors you might see a discrepancy in presentation there.

I seriously hope the best, Bill!

If you know someone that could redesign the site and make it look better please send them our way. Thanks a bunch for your constructive comments.

Elmar Moelzer
09-11-2007, 11:50 AM
Well let me put it that way:
We will hount anyone who we catch using or selling illegal copies of VoluMedic or offering them for download whether free or not.

The RIAA would not show mercy with us either (and what they do seems to be OK with most people, or so it seems). In fact they (the GEMA/AKM which is equivalent to the RIAA) went as far as to send a nasty letter to one of our customers, who WE had made music for to be included with a video that WE made (and not the music was not registered with the GEMA nor was the artist). They were requesting(!) information about the artist and the music from our customer. They were threatening out client with all sorts of legal ****.
They had no right and no reason to do that. They did it because they can and because they want to get money whereever possible.
Why they ever ended up having the legal means for that, I dont know.
"the artist needs to be protected"... BAH you only get money from the GEMA if you are a paying member and then ONLY if your stuff is played publicly a certain amount of times. Most people I know that were members of the GEMA at some point have quit it meanwhile, even though their stuff was even played on the radio and shown in public, etc (just not often enough so it would make up for the GEMA membership- fees). So who ends up with the money is the likes of Sony and the other big ones. The artist gets the least of it anyway...
And then you even have to pay GEMA- fees for every empty DVD or CD that you buy.
Guess it pays off to make an organisation like that, LOL maybe I should too ;)

That said, you can always take care of matters with those crackers yourself. Some "whois" and a nasty letter can work wonders. You can even have them to pay you for your losses, or at least get a license or so out of it (better than nothing).
CU
Elmar

DiscreetFX
09-11-2007, 02:09 PM
I was not trying to ignore you neverko and appreciate any advice you have. Thank you for taking the time to reply and give your honest take on the situation. There have been 1000's of downloads of our products on the pirate website I mentioned in my first post so there is interest in obtaining our digital video effects. Unfortunately grabbing the products illegally via piracy does not help DiscreetFX and does not pay our artists and animators.

Thomas M.
09-11-2007, 02:43 PM
I'd say there's close to zero connection between the amount of downloads and your product. As you almost copied the name of a much bigger enterprise, I guess these downloads are the consequence of the similar name. Also there are many people who download almost everything. So don't worry about your business and that you probably lost many. I bet you didn't.

Cheers
Thomas

Wonderpup
09-11-2007, 02:45 PM
I learned Max on a cracked copy because I could not afford to buy it, but when I when I got a job I made sure the company bought Max, and as far as I know they still use it to this day.

I think it's basicly true that any serious user will eventually buy into a product they use on a regular basis. One suggestion I would make is to offer incentives to those who are registered users, like free minor updates or additional features.

Steamthrower
09-11-2007, 05:05 PM
Even updates and the plus-featured versions will be cracked or uploaded to the world.

Andyjaggy
09-11-2007, 05:14 PM
First a confession. Back in the day I didn't own a single legal copy of software. Gradually as I went through school and got more money I slowly started to replace all my pirated software with legal versions.

What I would really like to know is how many people pirate software and then use it professionally? I know software is pirated alot but most of the time I think it is people who never even use it, "collectors" as was said earlier, people who never would have paid the money for it to begin with. Not saying that makes piracy okay, but it puts a little perspective on it.

Silkrooster
09-11-2007, 06:03 PM
I for one strongly beleive that no one should use pirated anything. I never had any type of an income that amounted to much, but through scrimping and saving I finaling purchased what software I have. I did not see any need to use programs before I could buy them. So I am not in any position to feel sorry for anybody that steals from someone else.
Now that I said that. I have to think hard on how pirated software hurts a company. I beleive most not all people who use pirated software would not have purchased the software anyways. Since that person had no intentions of buying (I am thinking of young kids who want to have just to have) the company was not out any money anyways. (unless they spend money on legal recourse)
However if someone stole a copy and sold it to others thinking it was legit is another story, this money rightfully belongs to the company that wrote the software. In this case there were users who would have purchased the legal software.
Granted I have not been in a position of having anything stolen. So I am sure I am missing some of the picture. So for me it is purely a moral issue, one I beleive strongly in.
I hope I did not offend anyone.
Silk

voriax
09-11-2007, 06:10 PM
First a confession. Back in the day I didn't own a single legal copy of software. Gradually as I went through school and got more money I slowly started to replace all my pirated software with legal versions.

What I would really like to know is how many people pirate software and then use it professionally? I know software is pirated alot but most of the time I think it is people who never even use it, "collectors" as was said earlier, people who never would have paid the money for it to begin with. Not saying that makes piracy okay, but it puts a little perspective on it.

I totally agree with you here. And I too never owned a legal piece of software back in the day, but everything I use commercially now is legitimate. It does irk me if/when pirated software is used for commercial gain, though. 9.3's been pirated already, and with it the top 10 plugins for LW, but I wonder how many people download it to use it seriously? Unless they already own LW...

The comment about people who download and never use is very very true. I know people personally who just download something for the sake of having it. Saying "I have the whole Adobe CS collection!" .. but never using a single program.

IMI
09-11-2007, 06:24 PM
Wow.
This made me think - Considering the amount of money Bill Gates and Microsoft have as it is, can you imagine how much more they'd have if it weren't for all the pirated versions of Windows installed alone?
And that's just the OS, which probably wouldn't fall under the category of people who use illegal versions wouldn't use it if...
Other Microsoft products such as Office are way up there with Adobe products as far as piracy is concerned, maybe equally, maybe moreso.
Jeez, entire countries such as China consider piracy to be the norm, not the exception.

vadermanchild
09-11-2007, 06:42 PM
I know a number of people who pirate - I also know a number who have bought licencees and then immediately seek out pirate software to avoid having dongles attached to their pc and go through hassle when re-installing or moving machines....etc

Once you start down the route of sourcing warez to avoid the headache of pointless dongles and protection those people might just decide to hold off on legitimising a purchase.

With piracy and cracks so quickly available and successfull for some people protection schemes drive these peeps away from product.

I can sympathise with both angles...a company wnating to proteect an investment and a user.

Im interested in knowing who the dongles are meant to stop... ah yes...the CASUAL PIRATE? That bloke....8) He who only wants to pirate one piece of software and doesnt know about torrentz....yes...theres lots of those people about:rolleyes:

vadermanchild
09-11-2007, 06:51 PM
I wonder what the cost is to implement dongles and the likes and I wonder how many real customers its put off from pirating?

I dont see how it makess finacial sense nowadays? I mean LW will be availabale to anyone with a couple mouse clicks... I dont see the point.

Does it makes sense for Newtek to spend its resources on protection anymore? It causes real customers agro.

Im not a pirate BTW - I just hate copy protection - it serves no-one and customers are paying for it in the end.

theWOODman
09-11-2007, 06:55 PM
There was only one time in my life several years ago when I downloaded software and used a key-gen and that was 3DS Max. The only reason I did it was because I was dying of curiosity.

After awhile the guilt was killing me and I couldn't sleep so I deleted it the same day. For whatever reason, people will find some way to justify themselves for conscious sake ( to whatever measure is left ) or even try to find some positive twist for theft.

The fact is, theft is theft and despite what year it is or how the culture has changed, it's still wrong. If you had illegal software, but then paid for it legit later on, that's at least rectifying the wrong that was done. It still isn't right one way or the other.

I know it's a growing problem and I know that companies have to take certain measures to keep people from hacking it, but it seems the only thing it does is make it MUCH more of a pain for honest people to buy and maintain their software ( reinstalls, activations, etc. ).

About the only thing one can do is to encourage those that you know that have illegally downloaded software to do the right thing and pay for it. It amazes me as well because I've had these same conversations with fellow CHRISTIANS about this same thing and who had cracked software and that they thought it really wasn't stealing!

Sheesh, if that's how church going members feel about it, no wonder the world is the way it is, but that's another story altogether..........

jin choung
09-11-2007, 08:05 PM
as someone who purchased his beloved software licenses (my dongles, they're so soft against my lips)-

i think the piracy issue rightly gets lost in the grays.

it is NOT black and white. and many times the distinctions that are made are not essentially moral but merely legal - or even worse - technical.

1. have any of you guys ever received a mix tape from a girlfriend or even made one?

that is outright felonious behavior and everyone involved should be tortured, mutilated and shot.

2. how come taping something off of pay per view is legal but ripping a dvd that you rented from blockbuster is not?

everyone should be murdered in their sleep. but woken up first.

3. why is it okay ethically to tape something off of tv or radio then? the issue of QUALITY and COMMERCIAL INTERRUPTIONS (although there are stations that have a schedule where they play an entire album uninterrupted) is not one of ESSENCE but again, an issue of DEGREES.

but they should be thrown into gitmo anyway just to be safe.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

my point is, for many years and many reasons, this stuff is RIGHTLY not black and white in the mind of the public.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

PIRACY CAN INDEED HELP MONOPOLIES maintain their monopolies. why try even free linux if you can get windows for free. why let paint shop pro and others even get a foothold in the industry when you can get the creme of the crop photoshop for free.

why be forced to use $700 lightwave when you can get the "benz of 3d" maya for free?

it eliminates competition.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

there are no GOOD GUYS.

large ip holders act unethically when they try to lobby away the notions of fair use and even public domain... nothing enters the public domain anymore!

large ip holders and even small nobodies try to patent ridiculous things miring all innovation in a sea of lawyers.... they have people trying to patent snippets of code for crying out loud...

there are no good guys... and so public perception has been anything but sympathetic.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

finally, this is america... if it's anything, it is ADVERSARIAL.

prosecution vs. defense

dems vs. reps

exec vs. leg vs. jud vs. press

and yes,

producer vs. consumer

this is a country founded on the notion that you do not trust anyone farther than you can throw them. and this is why the country works so well.

you do NOT win by trying to get people to have mercy on you.

alas, sad but true.

i have never pirated your stuff and till right now, i never even heard of it. but you won't win by appealing to people's sense of decency.

you either win in spite of everything or you lose.

and also, don't take it so hard, of all the 1000s of dls of your stuff, how many sales do you think you really lost? lots of people download like they climb a mountain... cuz it's there. so take numbers with a grain of salt.

jin

DiscreetFX
09-11-2007, 08:13 PM
I understand your points jin choung

SBowie
09-11-2007, 08:23 PM
This made me think - Considering the amount of money Bill Gates and Microsoft have as it is, can you imagine how much more they'd have if it weren't for all the pirated versions of Windows installed alone?
Or maybe -- how much less the rest of us would have had to pay if everyone who used it paid their fair share and supply and demand economics were not weighed down by dishonesty.

jin choung
09-11-2007, 09:32 PM
Can't see the forest for the trees. :thumbsdow

hey, you never know. maybe m$, adobe, autodesk, etc etc etc fall exactly into that camp!

as i said, there are no good guys.

no appeals to ethics.

it's just A vs. B.

fight.

jin

Thomas M.
09-12-2007, 04:28 AM
Vadermanchild,

that's a point I already posted some time ago. Dongles only pi** off those who purchase a software, not the ones who use pirated copies. So in the end a dongle does exactly the wrong thing. It doesn't prevent anything, but buggers those who chose the legal path. Ridiculous and utter rubbish.

Cheers
Thomas

riki
09-12-2007, 06:54 AM
Just checked out your site, I'd have to agree with previous comments, it's not laid out well. My eyes just glazed over.

IMHO you need to hire a professional web designer to really sell it.

Red_Oddity
09-12-2007, 07:01 AM
I don't really mind the dongles (unless i have so many i need to ad another USB HUB), what irks me are companies like Adobe and the likes with their license schemes that are an incredible pain in the rear (not only do we pay twice as much for the same products in the EU as our US brethren, but we're being treated as common criminals and service and support is practically non existant (a full paid point update is what Adobe counts as a bug patch))

As for illegal, i have in the past used some of it in production for a couple of days and then buy it while still in production, this has more to do with over expensive software with no demos that promise the world but fall completely apart when used in a serious production pipeline (i have burned myself too many times with this).
After a couple of days (sometimes even hours ) you get a pretty good idea whether a product works as promised or not.

As for DiscreetFX, i never even heard about it (and i have been using LW for over a decade now), so, maybe it's not just illegal downloading, but maybe also a large part of customers never finding you because they simply don't know the company and thus the product exists?

starbase1
09-12-2007, 07:23 AM
I am happy with the newtek system, it works well for me and has never caused me problems. And if plugins want to tie into the dongle, that's OK too,

But I have zero tolerance for any sort of intrusive or painful protection. In the past I will admit to downloading a pirated copy of software I have already paid for, just to get around it...

I expect, and think it reasonable, that I can move software to a new computer when I buy one - if there is a mechanism to disable the old copy thats fine, (as long as it works). I will not buy a copy every couple of years, (roughly how oftebn I upgrade).

I really don't mind paying a fair price for software. I'm the kind of person who paid up for PKzip (for those with long memories!).

There is no way I will tolerate huge markups for UK customers, such as the eye watering surcharge I am expected to pay for the full photoshop. I'll stick with my ancient version 7, and elements, thank you very much. I have no sympathy for any piracy adobe suffer here as a result of that.

SBowie
09-12-2007, 07:28 AM
as i said, there are no good guys.I disagree - but even a shortage of 'good guys' doesn't justify becoming one of the 'bad guys.' This is an example of the "tu quoque" legal principle: in this context, it basically means that when someone else does something wrong, this doesn't make it ok for you to do it too. Further, just because some companies may be unethical doesn't mean they all are, any more than the existence of unethical members of the public mean we are all unethical.

Theft is theft. Justifying it on the basis that at least some of those one victimizes may themselves be shady doesn't magically transform it into a moral act. (Neither does the fact that one is a student, or that some few may eventually buy the product, nor that it was overpriced, or there is no demo, nor any of the dozens of other lame excuses and specious justifications we frequently hear.)

These all roughly boil down to, 'Hey, I would never have opened my auto dealership if I hadn't started out by ripping off cars - and wow, some of those manufacturers are really overcharging anyway! Anyway, now I am a paying customer, and employ people, so what does it matter?' Self-serving, flimsy arguments that say 'everyone else does it' don't really justify wrongdoing - they just grease the skids of social decline and corruption.

Just think - while we discuss this, people who will one day operate on your kids are applying the same rationale to cheating on their medical exams. Government officials who agree are subverting your tax money, lawyers and financiers are bilking you. Many will join that team, using the reasoning that 'there are no good guys, why should I be a sap.' Only a minority will say, 'They can do what they want, and say what they like - I'm playing for the other side.' Pick your team.

SBowie
09-12-2007, 07:31 AM
Yes, NewTek could easily adopt a dongleless licencing (http://www.luxology.com/whatismodo/userfriendlypolicies.aspx) scheme a...Sure they could - just like they did with SE (immediately launching a furor of 'bring back the dongle!' threads.)

Lightwolf
09-12-2007, 07:43 AM
Sure they could - just like they did with SE (immediately launching a furor of 'bring back the dongle!' threads.)
Well, if you look at the link you'd see that modo uses a cross platform, more or less floating license. A bit different from what SE offers, which is even _worse_ than Adobe (that at least allow installing the software on two machines).

And in that case a dongle is far superior, hands down.

Cheers,
Mike

SBowie
09-12-2007, 07:49 AM
Mike, I'm not clear on this - can you explain how that system prevents 'installation multiplication' by the owner of a license? Or does it?

Lightwolf
09-12-2007, 08:10 AM
Mike, I'm not clear on this - can you explain how that system prevents 'installation multiplication' by the owner of a license? Or does it?
It doesn't.

Cheers,
Mike

Phil
09-12-2007, 08:36 AM
Or maybe -- how much less the rest of us would have had to pay if everyone who used it paid their fair share and supply and demand economics were not weighed down by dishonesty.

Rubbish. Activation put paid to that argument. Windows XP is *more* expensive than Windows 2000, despite these activation countermeasures and WGA to defeat casual copyright infringement. It has not fallen in price over time.

Office is horribly, horribly expensive, yet is locked up in activation chains to avoid casual piracy. Every piece of software coming out of Redmond is likewise designed to deter copyright infringement. Not a single one is cheaper.

Vista is also a prime example - despite its new suicide mode when deemed to be a non-genuine copy, each punter has to stump up a huge fee to be entitled to install it.

Microsoft's annual profits continue to show that the systematic copyright infringement does not hurt them and the market shows that, basically, activation has enabled price gouging and that it is a precursor to software renting (a step too far). It puts far too much power in the hands of the vendor and I will not tolerate it.

I will find countermeasures to defeat activation on software I use (and have paid for in all cases!). I will also piss and moan at every opportunity to deter vendors from even flirting with the idea of activation, unless they promise to keep my money in escrow so that I get a full and complete refund when activation is no longer possible because they lose interest or want to push a 'upgrade' that is little more than a version increment.

As for DiscreetFX, there's far too much text on that site. If I were in the market for the products there, I still would not wade through it all. Having to click 3 levels deep to even begin to get an idea of what is available, and having to scroll endlessly down the page due to a non-existant navigation system, I got fed up.

SBowie
09-12-2007, 08:37 AM
The whole issue is that they DO NOT treat their paying customers as criminals and DO NOT impose idiotic restrictions, that could be potentially damaging to your business (broken dongle), upon you.

There is NO EXCUSE for idiotic protection. Something I very much let my wallet do the talking about.I guess I have to say that there is nothing in your post that helps clarify the nature of the protection scheme I inquired about. I wasn't asking about your view of the wisdom of having one (something I have mixed feelings about myself) ... just how theirs works.

SBowie
09-12-2007, 08:41 AM
Rubbish. Activation put paid to that argument.Your assertion, and even any supporting examples that can be cited, is never going to repeal the irrevocable law of supply and demand - sorry. You might as well argue against gravity.

Anti-piracy schemes may well be futile and irritating -- but theft of all forms costs money, jobs, innovation - and it hurts everyone. If someone feels M$ is ripping them off, buy they are free to buy a Mac or run Linux.

SBowie
09-12-2007, 08:46 AM
It doesn't.See, there you go. I'm not so sure I don't agree that the costs of (largely vain) attempts to prevent piracy, and the nuisance value imposed on honest consumers, don't outweigh the benefit. What I can never agree with agree with is that my disapproval of this or that practice by the developer gives me the right to breach whatever license restrictions he chooses to impose. Voting with your wallet is moral - theft is not.

Lightwolf
09-12-2007, 08:51 AM
See, there you go. ... Voting with your wallet is moral - theft is not.
Absolutely. Luxology use a liberate licensing scheme by choice, more trust to the user - and they have not changed their policy for three releases, so there seems to be some merit to it.
And yes, my wallet surely goes where I'm trusted - after all, I believe I can trust entities (persons or companies) more that trust me as well ;)

Cheers,
Mike

sammael
09-12-2007, 09:09 AM
It amazes me as well because I've had these same conversations with fellow CHRISTIANS about this same thing and who had cracked software and that they thought it really wasn't stealing!

Sheesh, if that's how church going members feel about it, no wonder the world is the way it is, but that's another story altogether..........

OMFG did I just read that! Thats probably a hell worthy offense. The pinnacle of society CRIMINALS!!
I think you could safely attribute Cristianity to many unsavory aspects of the world, it doesnt amaze me at all. What amazes me is how naive you must be to make such a comment. Christians are capable of rape and murder as well (shock horror).

Steamthrower
09-12-2007, 09:13 AM
OMFG did I just read that! Thats probably a hell worthy offense. The pinnacle of society CRIMINALS!!
I think you could safely attribute Cristianity to many unsavory aspects of the world, it doesnt amaze me at all. What amazes me is how naive you must be to make such a comment. Christians are capable of rape and murder as well (shock horror).

What theWOODman was saying is not naive; he was saying that if some Christians, whose morals prohibit theft, do it anyway, then generally non-Christians with no morals wouldn't have second thoughts.

Just because Christians are capable of murder or assault or robbery or fraud doesn't make it right, Sammael. It doesn't mean we think it right. It's just that we have moral and ethical standards which we expect other Christians to live by.

Just because you don't agree with his view doesn't mean you have to slam him. I don't agree a bit with you yet I can respect your position.

mrpapabeis
09-12-2007, 09:19 AM
An aquaintance of mine once told me a friend of his was "going to Iran, would you like any software?" I was curious.... It turns out that for @ $10 US you can go to a "software boutique" and have a DVD burned for you with any software that'll fit on the disc. Just place your order, leave, do the rest of your shopping for the day, come back... and viola!!! They even print a snazzy cover for you. So I asked how the govenment viewed this. It perfectly legal. Once you buy something it belongs to you. You can do whatever you want with it. Different religion/culture. So apparently software "piracy" is legal in Iran.


GP

Lightwolf
09-12-2007, 09:21 AM
What theWOODman was saying is not naive; he was saying that if some Christians, whose morals prohibit theft, do it anyway, then generally non-Christians with no morals wouldn't have second thoughts.

Erm, what does this have to do with Christians? I mean, the same holds true for non-Christians, just as much depending on their moral standards.

Cheers,
Mike

sammael
09-12-2007, 09:22 AM
After a brief look at your site I agree with Neverko, I think a revamp of your site might help. As for the products themselves well to be honest a revamp might help there as well. It all just looks tacky to me sorry, bland textures, messy composition, it just looks like minimal thought and effort went into it, I would never buy it (or even pirate it). I know thats harsh and im sorry about that but it realy makes sense to me that sales are not great.

Lightwolf
09-12-2007, 09:23 AM
So apparently software "piracy" is legal in Iran.
Well, selling software to Iran is illegal for a US company as well... so what is the option?

Cheers,
Mike

mrpapabeis
09-12-2007, 09:34 AM
Lightwolf.... Not passing judgment. Thats why I put "piracy" in quotation marks. Just a different way of viewing the world.


GP

Lightwolf
09-12-2007, 09:37 AM
Lightwolf.... Not passing judgment.
My point was... even if you want to stay legal it might not even be possible in some places.

Cheers,
Mike

sammael
09-12-2007, 09:41 AM
Erm, what does this have to do with Christians? I mean, the same holds true for non-Christians, just as much depending on their moral standards.

Cheers,
Mike

Yes that was my point, you dont have to be a christian to have good ethical and moral standards in fact its irrelevant. Most people I associate with including myself are Athiests some are Christian, Muslim, Hebrew, they are all good people with decent ethical & moral standards. Im sure all of them have committed piracy in one form or another during their lives and im sure just about everyone on this forum has as well.
Hell I installed a video projector and sound system in a Christian Church that had a massive collection of burnt DVD's and CD's.

mattclary
09-12-2007, 10:08 AM
My introduction to LightWave was via a pirated copy of 5.6. Had there been a demo at the time, I would have used that instead. I bought v6 and every version since, so we can see that piracy can actually be a valid marketing tool. ;)

It certainly sold me.

Steamthrower
09-12-2007, 10:13 AM
I'm sorry about the above, I did not mean to imply that by being a non-Christian one is necessarily immoral. I know many non-Christians who lead better lives than many Christians I know. Of course the NewTek rules say not to start religious/political discussions...so...dunno...

Qexit
09-12-2007, 10:38 AM
Yes, NewTek could easily adopt a dongleless licencing (http://www.luxology.com/whatismodo/userfriendlypolicies.aspx) scheme and save themselves as well as their users from a lot of time oriented and financial hassles. When a similar software product can do this, surely NewTek can as well.There is one significant flaw in the licensing sceheme they operate, at least from a user point of view. If you decide that you don't want to use the app anymore....you cannot sell the license to someone else. It's non-transferable (I think there have been a few exceptions, but you have to ask very, very nicely :D ). At least with the LW/Newtek dongle, that option is available and probably always will be as long as they stick with that means of protection.

Phil
09-12-2007, 11:08 AM
Your assertion, and even any supporting examples that can be cited, is never going to repeal the irrevocable law of supply and demand - sorry. You might as well argue against gravity.

I don't follow your reply at all. Could you explain what you mean?


Anti-piracy schemes may well be futile and irritating -- but theft of all forms costs money, jobs, innovation - and it hurts everyone. If someone feels M$ is ripping them off, buy they are free to buy a Mac or run Linux.

That's the difficult side of things. Copyright infringement is not automatically theft in the traditional way of thinking. For all those college kids and others downloading XSI or Maya, a very small percentage would either be in the market for it, or would be able to pay for it. The real theft in this situation is vanishingly small.

It's also worth noting that DRM is now becoming a factor in purchasing decisions. By using aggressive control systems, you deter users. I've seen this firsthand from people I haven't even discussed this with. Does the vendor recognise this? No. They blame it on 'piracy', rather than onerous license controls.

As for MS, it's an interesting change of attitude. Microsoft were largely responsible for affordable computing for the masses. Now that a single copy of their OS can cost more than the hardware needed to run it....

Steamthrower
09-12-2007, 11:50 AM
What about an equivalent of Steam?

www.steampowered.com

Qexit
09-12-2007, 12:04 PM
There's no problem transferring Modo licenses. I haven't heard about anyone being denied this and I've seen a few licenses being transferred. You have to ask, of course, to sort out the transfer. But I don't think it's a big deal to do so.The EULA actually states that the license is non-transferable. You have to contact them directly and explain the situation if you want to sell your copy. As you say, they are usually very understanding about it....but you do still have to ask and they do not have to say yes. There are no such restrictions with a LW license.

NB. I did check on this when I bought my Modo license. For the record, this almost stopped me buying it all.

Lightwolf
09-12-2007, 12:08 PM
The EULA actually states that the license is non-transferable.

I hope you get to read it before you purchase, otherwise the EULA is completely void in the EU (after all, it would be like signing a contract before you have a chance to read it).

That still leaves you at the mercy of the company for handing out new keys though.

Cheers,
Mike

Qexit
09-12-2007, 12:11 PM
P.S. I am aware that in some EU countries, most notably Germany if I remember correctly, non-transferable licenses are illegal and not enforceable :-)

Qexit
09-12-2007, 12:13 PM
I hope you get to read it before you purchase, otherwise the EULA is completely void in the EU (after all, it would be like signing a contract before you have a chance to read it).

That still leaves you at the mercy of the company for handing out new keys though.

Cheers,
MikeYou get to read it and agree to it at the start of the installation process. If you do not agree, like with about 99% of software, the app does not install but exits.

Lightwolf
09-12-2007, 12:22 PM
You get to read it and agree to it at the start of the installation process. If you do not agree, like with about 99% of software, the app does not install but exits.
Which is why it is too late, since the vendor has entered a contractual relationship at the time of the sale already, the terms of which can not be altered after the sale.
Yes, this is why that is illegal in the EU (and in Germany especially ;) ).
There is also a second problem if you buy from a retailer, because in that case the customer has no contractual relationship with the software developer at all, but only with the dealer.

Fun stuff...

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
09-12-2007, 12:24 PM
What if the plug-in developer isn't answering email anymore? What if he isn't around anymore? What if you have plug-ins from 20 different vendors that all need re-licensing?

What a complete mess.

So, how do you license modo plugins? Oh, right... you don't, there aren't any ;)
A can actually see this as being quite a dealbreaker for third parties, unless they use their own licensing scheme or get to hook into modo in some way.
Fusion (eyeon) has a similar problem with floating license based installations, where there are no real serial numbers to license to.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
09-12-2007, 12:34 PM
It's really simple. Use floating licenses like the core app. :)
Great... would you be willing to write the license server please? Unless you think that third parties can afford to pay thousands of $$$$ to license one that is...

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
09-12-2007, 01:33 PM
I'm just a customer what do I care, other than not being hassled when I purchase software? :p

Obviously you don't ... and you don't need to. Then again, I hope something similar never happens to your source of income either ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
09-12-2007, 03:09 PM
In this, I gotta take the position of the consumer. Besides, dongle locking has not protected one single LightWave plug-in from what I read.
That depends. How many people do you think would pay 300€ for infiniMap Pro if it was basically available as a free download? Because that's the essence of it.
So, you need a limited form of protection, even modo 301 has that now by only allowing a license to only run once in a network.
We could of course just kill the limited version, charge for updates and support and leave it at that, but that's a different business model.
I know that I'm picky about the software I use and getting it properly licensed... however, I also know that 90% of the people out there aren't - and this includes commercial users (just by looking around different studios and agencies that I visit every now and then).

Also, for a LW third party hooking up to the existing dongle is the easiest thing to do and make the most sense. You wouldn't want a license that has different terms from the host app (i.e. if our plugins were for mental ray, who knows, we might even charge for nodes...)

Cheers,
Mike

theWOODman
09-12-2007, 03:31 PM
Erm, what does this have to do with Christians? I mean, the same holds true for non-Christians, just as much depending on their moral standards.

Cheers,
Mike

I would agree with you and I could answer your question so you would understand where I'm coming from, but if I did, then it would take this post about software cracking in a whole other direction which NewTek may not allow then the post may get locked. It would drift into the area of religion, faith, belief, principles, etc.

In a perfect world people would not steal and there would not be any need for a dongle or even a software key, but until that happens we can only expect for the licensing system to become even more of a pain to manage.
I for one am getting tired of having to talk to Habib in India to get my copy of windows re-activated, but I understand why Microsoft and other companies do it.

SBowie
09-12-2007, 10:42 PM
I don't follow your reply at all. Could you explain what you mean?
Sure - I'm traveling, so an in-depth response is not convenient, but it is economics 101 that widespread demand permits economics of scale to kick in, to the benefit of all. Countless examples can be shown. True, there will be some instances where - in this case - a developer overprices something, or makes it inconvenient, etc., etc. Monopolies, however, don't break the supply/demand model - ultimately, it will inexorably topple them ... theft actually slows down that process.

Giving into the 'logic' that this justifies theft doesn't so anything to deter overpricing, poor architecture, etc. Basic economics dictate that if M$ (or anyone else) follows practices that irritate people, this will create a differential, a dissatisfaction that normally presents an opportunity for honest competition. Saying 'M$ are crooks so it's ok if I rip them off' may well not hurt M$ much in the long run - it can be argued that it actually contributes to their monopoly! It skews things, stifling competitive forces that might otherwise pose restraint against tyrannical monopolies. The net result is that innovative alternatives get less funds to work with. ('I stole everything M$ offers, so who needs OSX?')

Silkrooster
09-12-2007, 11:37 PM
I for one am getting tired of having to talk to Habib in India to get my copy of windows re-activated, but I understand why Microsoft and other companies do it.
Then copy your license key file to a safe place then you can reinstall windows all you want without having to talk to "Habib".
Silk

DiscreetFX
09-12-2007, 11:41 PM
I have added a demo video of our products to YouTube, we can also send you a higher quality version on DVD for free if you own SpeedEDIT, VT[4] and or any version of the TriCaster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbM8UL-fuec

prospector
09-13-2007, 12:12 AM
Then copy your license key file to a safe place then you can reinstall windows all you want without having to talk to "Habib".
Hmmmm, and where can I find that in XPPro?
Cuz I too am tired of calling half way around the world.

Cageman
09-13-2007, 01:11 AM
...so we can see that piracy can actually be a valid marketing tool. ;)

It certainly sold me.

Yeah! :) Just look at Max and Maya. Those apps cost a fortune, still, they are the biggest on the market. As for Max, I'm quite sure that piracy is what made it so popular (people learning it then companies bought licenses beacause that is what the artists were familiar with).

Cageman
09-13-2007, 01:18 AM
Eh, why?

Having the software call home each time you run it? No thanks.

Half-true. While it does indeed force you to login when running Half-Life 2 (or whatever), I can also run the game without any internet connection. It is called 'Offline mode' or something like that.

NewTek has 1000 things to fix with LW before thinking about something like this, but wouldn't it be neat to be able to have something like Steam but for LW? Let say, merging Flay into the software, making it easy as 1,2,3 to install a new script or plugin and what not.

Could be cool... yes, but... well... not NOW though! :P

parm
09-13-2007, 02:12 AM
Hmmmm, and where can I find that in XPPro?
Cuz I too am tired of calling half way around the world.

Calling half way round the world makes you tired?

Are you shouting? or using a telephone?

jin choung
09-13-2007, 02:48 AM
it can be argued that it actually contributes to their monopoly! It skews things, stifling competitive forces that might otherwise pose restraint against tyrannical monopolies.

exactly... this was my point that i use to argue a different point.

that piracy HELPS large companies maintain their monopolies (ala M$ and PHOTOSHOP)... and thus, even the issue of DAMAGE DONE ends up in a gray area.

as i said, this is a GRAY AREA.

unless you people have a problem with kids making mix tapes for their steadies, this is really firmly, and for good reason, gray.

and toss in DRACONIAN EULAS (no re-selling of a license?! that's worse than piracy imo and a company like that deserves anything it incurs) and violation of consumer rights and hey... absolutely no public sympathy.

and bring on the COPY PROTECTION. it is at least in keeping with the adversarial nature of everything.

no holds barred, no appeals for mercy. it is the way of hegelian dialectic. that is...

fight fight fight fight fight....

jin

jin choung
09-13-2007, 02:58 AM
oh, and btw, copy protection does not prevent piracy en toto... of course not. but if EVERY legitimate copy floating around cannot be EASILY copied, it will dissuade casual pirating.

they're just playing the numbers.

kinda like the lock on your door.

if anyone is really hellbent on getting into your house or apartment, it's GONNA HAPPEN! it's more a symbol or magic talisman than real defense. but it's inconvenient enough to ward off a casual incursion.

jin

besides, if the copy protection becomes inconvenient enough, you can just get the crack! :) i know tons of people who buy their games and then download a CRACK so they can play without having to keep the dang disk in their tray... and if that's wrong, that's too nit picky to care about... and here we are again... GRAY.

jin choung
09-13-2007, 03:26 AM
This is an example of the "tu quoque" legal principle: in this context, it basically means that when someone else does something wrong, this doesn't make it ok for you to do it too.

right... but as i said, the actual MORALITY of this stuff gets murky. a lot of times, it is LEGAL and TECHNICAL... not essentially MORAL. it really is not black and white... again, i give you the example of the "mix tape".

(also, even "tuquoque" gets grayed out. it is illegal to kill someone. it is not illegal to kill someone who is trying to kill you. the second of two wrongs turns out to be right. and consumer actions can be seen to be reactionary and defensive measures in a certain light)

also, there's another way to look at it... not as two parties being judged by the standard of ethics... but as a contest. A vs. B. adversarial opposition. then it's no longer about adhering to any kind of morality, it's just about beating the other guy. maybe not the best way but arguably the american way. ask karl rove.

but i mention the fact that there are no good guys not to justify any "retaliatory" action but to point out that there is very little sympathy on the side of public.

Further, just because some companies may be unethical doesn't mean they all are, any more than the existence of unethical members of the public mean we are all unethical.

of course.

Theft is theft.

no it's not. mix tape. taping stuff off of pay per view vs. ripping a dvd. it gets mired in degrees and technicalities.

Justifying it on the basis that at least some of those one victimizes may themselves be shady doesn't magically transform it into a moral act. (Neither does the fact that one is a student, or that some few may eventually buy the product, nor that it was overpriced, or there is no demo, nor any of the dozens of other lame excuses and specious justifications we frequently hear.)

not a moral act but perhaps a political one... or an act of civil disobedience or protest.

heck, i'm one of the few people in the world who can talk about issues contrary to their own personal interests but i got this egalitarian streak in me and it tickles me pink that as more and more stuff becomes SOFTWARE and the software becomes subject to hackery and piracy, there distinction between the HAVES and HAVE NOTS become reduced.

i LOOOOOOOVE that.

maybe not a moral act... but maybe an act that says "hey waitaminute... maybe the system is pretty unfair and fd up to begin with".

These all roughly boil down to, 'Hey, I would never have opened my auto dealership if I hadn't started out by ripping off cars - and wow, some of those manufacturers are really overcharging anyway! Anyway, now I am a paying customer, and employ people, so what does it matter?' Self-serving, flimsy arguments that say 'everyone else does it' don't really justify wrongdoing - they just grease the skids of social decline and corruption.

:) have you looked up lately? social decline and corruption is the human condition! government could not function without it! you can debate the slope but humanity is always, perpetually on its way down. no amount of boyscouting's gonna stop that.

Just think - while we discuss this, people who will one day operate on your kids are applying the same rationale to cheating on their medical exams. Government officials who agree are subverting your tax money, lawyers and financiers are bilking you. Many will join that team, using the reasoning that 'there are no good guys, why should I be a sap.' Only a minority will say, 'They can do what they want, and say what they like - I'm playing for the other side.' Pick your team.

salesmanship 101 applies pretty well here: WIFM - what's in it for me?

you NEVER EVER EVER EVER appeal to morality or ethics or decency. you appeal to self interest.

the doctor that cheats and operates on my kid will be competent because of adversarial forces... namely a parent gripped by murderous rage and a likely manslaughter plea deal.

everyday, in many ways that we cannot even possibly know about, we're getting FLEECED. i know it.

but there's also a battle for ideas out there and lots of times, those in power use things like "morality" to maintain their stranglehold on power... not for the sake of genuine altruism but to maintain the status quo... to keep the masses underfoot.

so make no mistake, i have chosen a side. it is, as it ever will be, MY side. and my side likes to look at things from all the angles.... cuz there's more than just one usually.

jin

mattclary
09-13-2007, 08:24 AM
Nice ethnic slur. Can we see more? NOT:thumbsdow

Had he said "Joe in America" would you consider that an ethnic slur? Intoning something negative about someone who happens not to be white is not racism.

You need to be less sensitive.

Jim_C
09-13-2007, 09:45 AM
Had he said "Joe in America" would you consider that an ethnic slur? Intoning something negative about someone who happens not to be white is not racism. .

Hell, he didn't even say anything negative about Habib. Just that he was tired of having to call him. Maybe that is actually the name of the last guy he talked to.


Hmmmm, and where can I find that in XPPro?

I attached a handy little program called SIW.
You don't have to install anything. Just dbl click the .exe and it will scan your system and report.
Among a LOT of other handy system info, it will give you your product key. There is also a way to recall it thru XP, but I forgot what it was since I have been using SIW to find it.

Jim_C
09-13-2007, 09:51 AM
that piracy HELPS large companies maintain their monopolies


Think of how many free Ubuntu installs there would be if there was absolutely no way to run Windows without purchasing it.

In a way I bet MS doesn't mind a little piracy.
Give them a free OS and somewhere down the line you will get some $$ from them. A MS game they can't find in a torrent, a piece of software that they need support for and a valid key must be used to get it, or the WGA finally whacks them and now that they are addicted to MS they finally have to pony up and buy.

If the person never got the free OS to begin with they would never be in the market for any of those other things.

Jim_C
09-13-2007, 10:12 AM
I attached a handy little program called SIW.


Screen shot attached so you can get the idea and see if it worth it.
Upon googling the process of finding the key/license, everything I read points to having to use a program like this to get your key with XP. Pre-XP you could find it in the registry.


50272

Steamthrower
09-13-2007, 10:35 AM
Nice ethnic slur. Can we see more? NOT

Come on, it's racial to say that you're sick of speaking to people who can't even speak your language? I don't care whether someone's white or black or purple, if they're tech support for North America they need to speak English.

:insert stupid emoticon here:

mattclary
09-13-2007, 11:11 AM
Hell, he didn't even say anything negative about Habib. Just that he was tired of having to call him. Maybe that is actually the name of the last guy he talked to.


The negativity of having to speak to someone in India was implied, it just had nothing to do with the color of his skin. When they start putting call centers in Croatia, you will hear the same complaints.

Jim_C
09-13-2007, 11:22 AM
The negativity of having to speak to someone in India was implied, it just had nothing to do with the color of his skin. When they start putting call centers in Croatia, you will hear the same complaints.


Yea, I see what you are saying. Implied negativity towards accents/dialects.

In the context of his post, I took it to mean that he was tired of having to CALL ANYONE to get re-registered. I honestly didn't pick up on the jab towards the language. I thought it was just a generic gripe towards hoop jumping due to activation due to theft.


Anyway.. semantics once again.

:)

Jim

mattclary
09-13-2007, 11:28 AM
In the context of his post, I took it to mean that he was tired of having to CALL ANYONE to get re-registered.

Hell, that is enough to tick ME off, all by itself. I don't care if they work in Missouri.

mattclary
09-13-2007, 11:40 AM
Back on topic (to some degree)


http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070913-autodesk-sued-for-10-million-after-invoking-dmca-to-stop-ebay-resales.html

CMT
09-13-2007, 12:08 PM
I would expect any company that outsources it's customer service to another country to employ someone who speaks my language fluently and clearly if they do business in my country. I don't care who it's outsourced to.


so make no mistake, i have chosen a side. it is, as it ever will be, MY side. and my side likes to look at things from all the angles.... cuz there's more than just one usually.

jin

As far as this mix tape analogy, to me there's a pretty distinct line between making a mixed tape for a friend and using a hacked piece of software to make money from. One is tolerated (doesn't make it right), and the other is just plain wrong no matter which way you slice it. And I understand you're trying to play devil's advocate, but really... in no way is stealing software, or any intellectual property OK to do. I think your idea of looking at stealing as anything other than immoral is the wrong way to look at it. Trying to find any political or other reason to justify it is absurd.

Jim_C
09-13-2007, 12:22 PM
you can debate the slope but humanity is always, perpetually on its way down.

Hogwash.

So when in history was this 'peak' of humaity from which we are now spiraling?

Humans are more humane now than ever.

Yes, of course there are isolated packets of inhumanity going on everywhere, but globally humans are more benevolent towards each other now than they ever have been.

CMT
09-13-2007, 12:49 PM
heck, i'm one of the few people in the world who can talk about issues contrary to their own personal interests but i got this egalitarian streak in me and it tickles me pink that as more and more stuff becomes SOFTWARE and the software becomes subject to hackery and piracy, there distinction between the HAVES and HAVE NOTS become reduced.

i LOOOOOOOVE that.

You love the fact that it's getting easier to steal due to technology?

Well, let's distinguish between them.... The Have-not's.... Those that truly have not are those who must live day to day without knowing where their next meal will come from. Not those who don't have the latest Mariah Carey CD. And I'm hardly sympathetic toward those downloading a hacked piece of software to run on their $1000 computer just because they can't afford it or just don't want to pay for it.

monovich
09-13-2007, 01:04 PM
I think a lot of pirated software downloaders are just hobbyists who would never have the cash or reason to buy the software outright. The odds of turning them into paying customers are very very low (IMO).

What does shock me, though, is the piracy that goes on in established studios. I've been in and out of quite a few, and piracy is rampant in studios (though not all studios). A lot of the time it is because of the artists, who don't want to go through the hassle of getting a purchase approved, so they just grab it.

Regardless, that's where the real shame is. Professionals making their plush salaries should not be using stolen software to do so.

Steamthrower
09-13-2007, 01:09 PM
Regardless, that's where the real shame is. Professionals making their plush salaries should not be using stolen software to do so.

Back to the trucking company analogy; it's like running your fleet off stolen diesel. Yet in my opinion, a wrong is a wrong, so even if someone makes $12 off a pirated application then it's basically the same deal.

mattclary
09-13-2007, 01:27 PM
.

Hogwash.

So when in history was this 'peak' of humaity from which we are now spiraling?

Humans are more humane now than ever.

Yes, of course there are isolated packets of inhumanity going on everywhere, but globally humans are more benevolent towards each other now than they ever have been.

Agreed 100%. Many try to argue otherwise, but I feel humans are far more humane than they ever have been. Last time I had this discussion someone tried to use Gitmo as an argument how we are less humane. I just had to laugh. Back in the "good old days" mass graves were the final destination for individuals determined to be politically inconvenient. And torture was a lot more severe than being stacked in a pyramid of nude fellow prisoners. (I know, I am mixing my detention centers) ;)

theWOODman
09-13-2007, 03:34 PM
OK, I'm going to give this one more shot without trying to be misunderstood or taken out of context LOL.

BTW, my apologies to Habib which I'm almost on a first-name basis with anyway ( one more Windows activation and we'll be trading family photos ).

Anywho, you can't really discuss pirated software without coming back to or referencing moral and ethical issues. In this day and age of existentialism you know what a quagmire discussions like these can turn into ( whew, thank goodness I have Dictionary.com open in another browser window ).

For those with a hardened conscious and/or heart towards pirating software, I seriously doubt any amount of debate here will change their mind about it. For those who did it and their conscious is bothering them or to those who are fence-riding the issue, I would simply ask that you do the right thing and simply pay for it.
Parents often ( or should ) teach their children not to steal and if there's something they want and can't afford, then they simply don't get it or they should work, save up some money, then buy it.
The people who create the software ( like Lightwave ) that we like and use are regular people just like us. There are no victimless crimes here.
These people who work and invest their time, talent, and labour should be rewarded for their work. They have families, mortgages, and children that they'd like to put through college one day just like we would like to do.
It's easy to speak in terms of like "Descreet" or "NewTek", ect. as just generic corporations or software industries, but in reality they are made up of people just like us trying to make a living.
When you purchase software it helps them to do just that and it also helps the future of the program with more time investment, research, marketing, and development to which it will result in a much better program which they will be able to offer us.

That about sums up my opinion on all of it.

What did I say wrong this time?

Lightwolf
09-13-2007, 03:46 PM
What did I say wrong this time?
It's Discreet, not Descreet (and to be extremely picky: discreet, which is actually dead now and called Autodesk Media & Entertainment). :D

Hey, you asked ;)

Other than that well said though.

Cheers,
Mike

Matt
09-13-2007, 05:54 PM
My introduction to LightWave was via a pirated copy of 5.6. Had there been a demo at the time, I would have used that instead. I bought v6 and every version since, so we can see that piracy can actually be a valid marketing tool. ;)

It certainly sold me.

We got oneeeeee! Lock him up, revoke his license!!!! :D

If I'm gonna be totally honest, that's how I started with LightWave, back in the Amiga days v3.5, when I was at school, dunno why I had it, couldn't use it, my Amiga didn't have enough RAM to do anything other than a lens flare! On the plus side(!) I never paid for it so I wasn't funding any terrorists!

BUT, it did mean when I became a fully fledged designer with a real job, when we needed to bring 3D rendering in house, I chose LightWave because I knew about it.

So, apologies NT for my "indiscretion"! Hopefully I've made up for it now! :D

Forgive me?

Silkrooster
09-13-2007, 06:37 PM
Screen shot attached so you can get the idea and see if it worth it.
Upon googling the process of finding the key/license, everything I read points to having to use a program like this to get your key with XP. Pre-XP you could find it in the registry.


50272
I think it depends on whether XP was purchased seperately or included with the system.
My previous copy was in the windows/system32 folder. I can not find it in this copy. Unless service pack 2 changed the location or how its created? (guessing)
As for the product ID that gets typed in during setup, that is still in the registry.
Silk

prospector
09-13-2007, 08:34 PM
Calling half way round the world makes you tired?
Tired of doing the MS shuffle, cuz I know when the lady computer voice comes on, no matter what number I give it, it will always direct me to the hold line. I can go as fast as an auctioneer or as slow as a person drifting off into space.
Makes no difference, can't even cut the interview short...you MUST dance the dance.

jin choung
09-13-2007, 08:59 PM
As far as this mix tape analogy, to me there's a pretty distinct line between making a mixed tape for a friend and using a hacked piece of software to make money from. One is tolerated (doesn't make it right), and the other is just plain wrong no matter which way you slice it. And I understand you're trying to play devil's advocate, but really... in no way is stealing software, or any intellectual property OK to do. I think your idea of looking at stealing as anything other than immoral is the wrong way to look at it. Trying to find any political or other reason to justify it is absurd.

i don't. but you're entitled to your opinion.

what about stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving family? or stealing a gun from the nazis? stealing is justifiable and right in all kinds of circumstances. what about robin hood? he's a really great guy dontcha think?

but this is what i mean when i say that IP and copyright and all that stuff is hopelessly and rightfully mired in the GRAY.

why is a mix tape any less of an offense? it is still ripping off someone's property without paying for it?

to WHOM is it less offensive? you? me? and all of a sudden, why are we no longer on objective ethical ground but taking the temperature of others?

and if it's wrong but "acceptable" then who's to say that something you might find unacceptable can be found acceptable to someone else? just a matter of opinion.

and sooner or later, things are going to get to a point where unless you are extremely legalistic about every little act that you do, you won't realize how many laws you break by going through your day.

more to come....

jin

jin choung
09-13-2007, 09:10 PM
You love the fact that it's getting easier to steal due to technology?

i do. it levels the playing field.


Well, let's distinguish between them.... The Have-not's.... Those that truly have not are those who must live day to day without knowing where their next meal will come from. Not those who don't have the latest Mariah Carey CD. And I'm hardly sympathetic toward those downloading a hacked piece of software to run on their $1000 computer just because they can't afford it or just don't want to pay for it.

see, that's the thing. not knowing where your next meal is coming from may have a LOT to do with piracy.

make no mistake, the current third world boom of outsourced jobs is riding on the wheels of piracy.

there must be TONS... literally, METRIC TONS of stolen copies of windows, m$ dev, etc etc that are enabling these people to lift themselves up into a higher economic status.

mariah carey on the mix tape may not help but, according to you, the MORE HEINOUS crime of making money with pirated software may be LITERALLY delivering food to people who may not have otherwise had a shot.

see, this is what i mean by my ability to think even against my self interests.

and i think it is really petty to nit pick a relatively petty thing as piracy against the desperate poverty and disenfranchisement of entire nations.

do i deserve everything that i have? do starving third worlders deserve to be so impoverished?

answer to both is no.

luck of the draw. completely.

so yah, that egalitarian streak in me celebrates that as more "stuff" becomes software, the difference between the haves and the have nots diminishes.

some people seem to have a real agenda about keeping the haves and the have nots distinct and in tact. i don't get that. and i celebrate the blurring.

jin

jin choung
09-13-2007, 09:17 PM
.
Yes, of course there are isolated packets of inhumanity going on everywhere, but globally humans are more benevolent towards each other now than they ever have been.

hogwash.

pffft, i'll bet they said that in the middle ages too. "sure, there are isolated packets of inhumanity but us christians are really much better than those pagan romans...."

and i have never said that there was a peak of humanity.... such a notion doesn't even properly register in my head.

i was ironically saying that we are constantly sliding and yet there seems to be no bottom.

also, is brutality rightfully the only way to judge the debasement of humanity? mind you, if you add up all the wars that are going on in any given time along with the shameful suffering of those in the grips of extreme poverty and its attendant violent crime, i think we do have a shot at the title... don't get me wrong.

but what about inequity or prejudice general hatred corruption oppression etc... are we really any better now than we were? things are more under cover maybe... but actually BETTER?

meh.

but perhaps we're both wrong.

humanity doesn't go up or down. humanity is always just humanity. and imo, that's pretty distressingly mediocre.

jin

jin choung
09-13-2007, 09:41 PM
anyhoo,

i don't think the argument is so much that piracy is right....

rather, that piracy is grey. for many really excellent reasons. esp in the mind of the public.

and just like with the mix tape, in the end, it may not even matter.

jin

parm
09-14-2007, 02:19 AM
anyhoo,

i don't think the argument is so much that piracy is right....

rather, that piracy is grey. for many really excellent reasons. esp in the mind of the public.

and just like with the mix tape, in the end, it may not even matter.

jin

I must say that, I find it very interesting that the; Music, games, films and the software industry. Have chosen such a term, to describe the illegal use, transfer and copying of their products. After all Piracy has a long history, as one of the most terrifying and violent crimes imaginable.

I completely understand why those industries are concerned by such activity. But in all honesty. I really don't see why it should concern anyone else, much. Particularly with software which isn't much use to anyone, until they have spent at least a year of hard study into using the product.

If it's true that commercial studios. Who can well afford to pay for the tools of their trade. Are using illegal copies of software. Then it is up to the software companies, to find out why that is happening in a proactive way.

I agree. It is more a legal and technical issue than a moral or ethical one.

Red_Oddity
09-14-2007, 02:38 AM
A more legal and technical issue than we all think i guess.

I understand why those lowlifes at the MPAA, RIAA and BSA are calling it piracy and stealing, to instill fear and loathing in the eye of the public.

What sounds better when spouted by the media and by lawyers in court;
that we are infringing copyrights and preventing large (often multibillion) companies more income...
or...that we are pirates (centuries associated with sea roving murderers, rapist and thieves) and are stealing (as in, we literally stick our hands in their pockets to actually remove something physical, like a cd or money) from the poor poor artists?

jin choung
09-14-2007, 02:46 AM
yeah but pirates sounds cool, savvy?

and it gives you an excuse to walk around like you have an inner ear infection for some reason and wear eye liner.

besides, pirates are waaaaaaay cooler than ninjas so you can thank your lucky stars they didn't decide to label it ninjitsu....

jin

Elmar Moelzer
09-14-2007, 04:30 AM
I really like the dongle. It is really easy to transfer the license from one computer to another, hardware upgrades dont affect my licensing and so on.
I think that our VoluMedic really benefits from this licensing scheme too.
I think that it is the only product for medical viz where the physician can take his work home on his laptop without having to buy an extra license. At the prices medical software has this is a real issue even though VoluMedic is believe it or not rather cheap compared to others on the market.
Usually floating licensing schemes only work on a LAN (with a license server). Others use even more problematic ones where it is tied to your LAN IP and if your network adapter breaks, good bye license, or if you are lucky, you have to send the broken adapter in... problem if you have multiple software licenses (or a base software + plugins) attached to it (what do you do, cut it into pieces and send a piece to each software- manufacturer??).
For me its either dongle or a "trust the user"- system.
Dongle is the least problematic one for me as a 3rd party though.
CU
Elmar

omeone
09-14-2007, 05:19 AM
Is software a service or a product?

Autodesk are going down the service route, with their subscription plans, maintainance, support, lack of backward compatibility, download instead of shipping hard copies etc.

Services can't be pirated... (much) I think it probably has legal benefits too.

NT, definitly see it as a product (since they grew up out of hardware that's hardly surprising) with their dongles, CD/DVD distribution - even a trial wasn't availale for a long time.

Still I would hate NT to start treating LW as a service - I'd probably jump ship or walk the plank (my boats are fully paid for btw)

Red_Oddity
09-14-2007, 11:46 AM
yeah but pirates sounds cool, savvy?

and it gives you an excuse to walk around like you have an inner ear infection for some reason and wear eye liner.

besides, pirates are waaaaaaay cooler than ninjas so you can thank your lucky stars they didn't decide to label it ninjitsu....

jin

Yarrr, that be true matey, us pirates be mighty fine folk...

Now let's go north skip, i hear there be mighty fine treasure at that Silicon Valley!

Yarrr!



Now how cool would it be to act as a complete stereo type hollywood pirate at court just to screw with 'm.

zebrafish
09-14-2007, 11:56 AM
I've got a question about owning a "license" rather than owning the
software itself.

Does that mean that the software company has extra power over
what services they will or won't provide, like transferring a license?
Eyeonline is telling me they may not even transfer my license of DFX+4
because I got upset that they did not inform me about license transfer
fees, before the sale happened, even though I contacted them beforehand.

I hate it when people don;t have the ability to look themselves in the
face.

CMT
09-14-2007, 12:26 PM
see, that's the thing. not knowing where your next meal is coming from may have a LOT to do with piracy.


Software piracy and survival have little to do with each other. Sure, when one steals for survival, it's somewhat justified. But I don't see any people in desperate situations wasting their time toting around a computer downloading illegal software. They have more important business to take care of.



mariah carey on the mix tape may not help but, according to you, the MORE HEINOUS crime of making money with pirated software may be LITERALLY delivering food to people who may not have otherwise had a shot.


So that's the answer for you? To let it go on? Why not legalize piracy then if you feel that it's so great?

Or maybe we should say that stealing is wrong no matter how petty and keep a moral standard. And then help those in need as best we can because it should be the responsibility of those who are blessed with a lot to help those who have nothing. Attack the problem at both ends. There's aid that is provided currently, but not nearly enough.



and i think it is really petty to nit pick a relatively petty thing as piracy against the desperate poverty and disenfranchisement of entire nations.


I wasn't nitpicking. I was simply stating that those who are worried about survival aren't necessarily thinking about stealing software. They are more worried about finding shelter, food, and whatnot.



some people seem to have a real agenda about keeping the haves and the have nots distinct and in tact. i don't get that. and i celebrate the blurring.

Only those that prey upon the have-nots want to keep it that way. I would celebrate the blurring as well. Only if it was done without infringing on other's rights.

Lightwolf
09-14-2007, 02:12 PM
Eyeonline is telling me they may not even transfer my license of DFX+4
because I got upset that they did not inform me about license transfer
fees, before the sale happened, even though I contacted them beforehand.

Normally they do, as does every dealer. Maybe you caught them at a bad moment (NAB, Siggraph, IBC), they tend to be very responsive usually.

Technically you do only own a license and not the product itself (as you do with music, videos or books) - the owner of the product is the copyright holder and this right can not be transferred at all. A license gives you the right to use the product.
Since a license transfer does involve manual labour on the part of Eyeon, I do understand their policy. But I do think the fee is rather high.

Cheers,
Mike

zebrafish
09-14-2007, 02:25 PM
Normally they do, as does every dealer. Maybe you caught them at a bad moment (NAB, Siggraph, IBC), they tend to be very responsive usually.

Technically you do only own a license and not the product itself (as you do with music, videos or books) - the owner of the product is the copyright holder and this right can not be transferred at all. A license gives you the right to use the product.
Since a license transfer does involve manual labour on the part of Eyeon, I do understand their policy. But I do think the fee is rather high.

Cheers,
Mike

$195 for a customer service rep to take two minutes to make a data entry change in their computer?? Yeah, it is high.

Thanks for explaining, lightwolf. Next I guess I will try having my buyer talk to them.

I think it is wrong of them to use this license versus ownership thing to
play power games, and I am talking about it going all the way up to their
senior sales manager.

Lightwolf
09-14-2007, 02:34 PM
I think it is wrong of them to use this license versus ownership thing to play power games, and I am talking about it going all the way up to their senior sales manager.
Give Michael my regards ;)
Does your switch include a new dongle?

Cheers,
Mike

jin choung
09-14-2007, 02:36 PM
see that's what i mean... they use semantics and powerplays to their advantage... is it any wonder many people are saying f this... i'm not playing by their arbitrary rules anymore.

"So that's the answer for you? To let it go on? Why not legalize piracy then if you feel that it's so great?"

we don't have a choice in the matter. it will go on. it will get easier. no need to legalize it. besides, a law is only a law if it's enforcible... clearly, piracy is not enforcible in any meaningful way.

besides, with the companies all pulling their power punches with things like drm and they deciding what you can and cannot do with your stuff, i shed not a single tear.

and as i noted with my example of third world outsourcing, piracy DOES have a very real connection with the have nots getting some.

jin

DiscreetFX
09-14-2007, 02:38 PM
I've got a question about owning a "license" rather than owning the
software itself.

Does that mean that the software company has extra power over
what services they will or won't provide, like transferring a license?
Eyeonline is telling me they may not even transfer my license of DFX+4
because I got upset that they did not inform me about license transfer
fees, before the sale happened, even though I contacted them beforehand.

I hate it when people don;t have the ability to look themselves in the
face.

I can't speak for other software developers but when you buy a software package from DiscreetFX it belongs to you. You can sell it on eBay, transfer the license to someone else, even flush it down the toilet if you want to. You are suppose to only use it on one machine per license but we don't add any copy protection and we don't want to be babysitting what you do with your purchased software. We rely on your honesty to not copy it and spread to others and for you to use one license per machine at a time. I set these policy's up this way because of my bad experiences buying Amiga software long ago and finding out after the fact that it had manual lookup and disk based copy protection.

As a customer that was supporting Amiga developers and purchasing all my software I did not appreciate this double punishment.

CMT
09-14-2007, 03:09 PM
we don't have a choice in the matter. it will go on. it will get easier. no need to legalize it. besides, a law is only a law if it's enforcible... clearly, piracy is not enforcible in any meaningful way.


It's being enforced. It's just not making much of a dent because of the sheer amount of it going on. But because so many are doing it doesn't make it right. How many store owners have let a child get away with shoplifting a stick of gum? Because it's too much effort for something so trivial. Yet the child who got away with it will probably do it again and could escalate to other things. Let the third world countries do it, then they will push the line further. Let's not endorse something that's fundamentally wrong.



besides, with the companies all pulling their power punches with things like drm and they deciding what you can and cannot do with your stuff, i shed not a single tear.


Well, it's not really your stuff is it? Did you right the software, or record the song? Do you have the right to distribute it even without monetary gain to friends and family? To you or me it's not really a big deal because it's kinda silly. But Napster didn't think it was silly when Metallica brought a lawsuit up along with other issues besides just the stealing of their songs.

If you had some intellectual property that would ensure your financial freedom, but someone's illegal actions hindered your progress, I'm sure you would feel differently.

zebrafish
09-14-2007, 03:11 PM
Give Michael my regards ;)

I gave him my abject apology for my righteous anger, and admitted
that he is the man with the power. He is the man with the power
over a weasley owner of a software license that is now going for
$200 used. That is what they really want - to feel powerful.


Does your switch include a new dongle?

Cheers,
Mike

No, it is tied to the video toaster card that I sold. I am now in bad
spot because they did not inform me about these license fees.

I don't think the customer service rep I first talked to even knew
what she was doing, because she asked me for a purchase order
number, and for proof from the buyer. What, like I'm a government
institution re-selling 200 licenses of Fusion 5 at $5,000 each?
I don;t think she even knew the difference between a DFX and a Fusion.

jin choung
09-14-2007, 03:23 PM
It's being enforced...Yet the child who got away with it will probably do it again and could escalate to other things. Let the third world countries do it, then they will push the line further. Let's not endorse something that's fundamentally wrong.

"enforcible" it is a fundamental aspect of something that should be a law. what you're saying is that it is "trying to be enforced"... but because, as you allow, the masses of people doing it, i am saying it is fundamentally "UN-ENFORCIBLE".

...

oh please... yah, i see the kid who made the mix tape for his girl friend turning into a rapist mass murderer any day now.

"gateway crimes"... i love it....

lots of things are fundamentally wrong. why should only the "big guys" benefit? inequality is wrong. poverty is wrong.

i'm sure the third world nations lifting themselves up out of poverty are just wringing their hands at regret over the piracy.... wrongshwrong... like the mix tape, it can be seen as trivial in comparison.

as i said, i love the fact that "little guys" are not letting the "big guys" tell them how and what they can do.

that tickles me.

shrug.

jin

vadermanchild
09-14-2007, 03:26 PM
It is really easy to transfer the license from one computer to another, hardware upgrades dont affect my licensing and so on.Elmar

Im glad you havent had issues - have you got any worley products?

Ever swapped a dongle?

Ever had to do without your own software you have paid for while you have to reregister your own software?

You sit there waiting for the license email to come in and think WHY???? I can downlaod any worley product in about 20 minutes with little hassle from torrent sites as easy as easy pie.

If publishers want protection please dont make it a hassle for pauying customers - worleys method combined with LW will drive honest people to do consider their options.... THe publishers are kidding thmselves if they think their systems matter with bit-torrent sites available to public left right and center.

vadermanchild
09-14-2007, 03:31 PM
I can't speak for other software developers but when you buy a software package from DiscreetFX it belongs to you. You can sell it on eBay, transfer the license to someone else, even flush it down the toilet if you want to. You are suppose to only use it on one machine per license but we don't add any copy protection and we don't want to be babysitting what you do with your purchased software. We rely on your honesty to not copy it and spread to others and for you to use one license per machine at a time. I set these policy's up this way because of my bad experiences buying Amiga software long ago and finding out after the fact that it had manual lookup and disk based copy protection.

As a customer that was supporting Amiga developers and purchasing all my software I did not appreciate this double punishment.

Good to hear.

Some other tips (maybe you do this aready) - make sure your software is purchaseable online - make it fast with immediate delivery - make it clear you get instant access to the software. The important thing is INSTANT access after paying online.

Simply make it as easy or EASIER to buy the software than search for it on a torrent site.

I know sometime some people want software quick and money isnt the issue.

Convienience is important.

CMT
09-14-2007, 03:42 PM
If every law was 100% enforceable, there wouldn't be any murders. Any lame law can be enforced to some degree.


oh please... yah, i see the kid who made the mix tape for his girl friend turning into a rapist mass murderer any day now.

You're really stretching it. Don't be silly. It's entirely conceivable that a child who steals and doesn't get caught to develop a pattern of behavior which may lead to stealing things of greater value. It happens all the time.


i'm sure the third world nations lifting themselves up out of poverty are just wringing their hands at regret over the piracy.... wrongshwrong... like the mix tape, it can be seen as trivial in comparison.

Heh. Of course, it's never the one's doing it that feel that it's wrong. At least never enough to deter them. Otherwise they wouldn't do it, would they?

It all comes down to if it affects you directly. Most people could care less if someone they didn't know got their car stolen. But if it happened to them, then they would start to take notice. They'd be crying bloody murder if it happened to themselves.

It doesn't affect you so why should you care? In fact, you seem happy that people rights are being violated.

zebrafish
09-14-2007, 04:03 PM
I can't speak for other software developers but when you buy a software package from DiscreetFX it belongs to you. You can sell it on eBay, transfer the license to someone else, even flush it down the toilet if you want to. You are suppose to only use it on one machine per license but we don't add any copy protection and we don't want to be babysitting what you do with your purchased software. We rely on your honesty to not copy it and spread to others and for you to use one license per machine at a time. I set these policy's up this way because of my bad experiences buying Amiga software long ago and finding out after the fact that it had manual lookup and disk based copy protection.

As a customer that was supporting Amiga developers and purchasing all my software I did not appreciate this double punishment.


I am seeing how this copyright/license thing can turn vicious for the end user. it isn't right.

CMT
09-14-2007, 04:09 PM
I can't speak for other software developers but when you buy a software package from DiscreetFX it belongs to you. You can sell it on eBay, transfer the license to someone else, even flush it down the toilet if you want to....

Actually, you own the license to use it. You don't own the code, copyright or patent on it. Licenses have restrictions. If you own something you can change it, alter it and mass distribute it. Not with licenses however.

zebrafish
09-14-2007, 04:50 PM
Actually, you own the license to use it. You don't own the code, copyright or patent on it. Licenses have restrictions. If you own something you can change it, alter it and mass distribute it. Not with licenses however.

I think his point is, that what his company does is better.

I wish I had never heard of Eyeon. This ebay sale has been
way too stressful for me. I think I don't even feel like trying
to sell my Ikegami anymore, even though there are no license
issues.

I think I will just take it down to the salvation army, and be done
with it.

DiscreetFX
09-14-2007, 05:24 PM
Actually, you own the license to use it. You don't own the code, copyright or patent on it. Licenses have restrictions. If you own something you can change it, alter it and mass distribute it. Not with licenses however.

Very true CMT.

:agree:

zebrafish
09-14-2007, 05:58 PM
And to transfer ownership of Fusion 4 to a third party is $995.
CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT?
I have my own separate Fusion dongle and it would cost $995 JUST to transfer the license.
How's THAT for too high?! :thumbsdow

I may HAVE to stick with Eye-on for now, but I sure don't like it.


Are you sure it's $995?

There's this Fusion 5 forum called: Pigs Fly from Flying Pig Ranch
that is apparently the main one, the most used, and I did a search on there,
on the word "transfer." I only find references to the transfer cost being
$195. I have been doing my research about it. I have not seen this
$195 ever mentioned in the same breath with DFX. Not even on cgsociety.


I think that "Pigs Fly from Flying Pig Ranch" is the best name they could have come up with for that forum, because that is what Eyeon is to me now.

I think they are trying to charge me the same transfer fee for DFX, as they charge for fusion 5 or whatever version.

If I were you I'd get out of it! These people are bad news.

zebrafish
09-14-2007, 05:59 PM
oh yeah here's the link to Pigs Fly from Flying Pig Ranch:

http://tinyurl.com/228cx6

jin choung
09-14-2007, 10:22 PM
It all comes down to if it affects you directly. Most people could care less if someone they didn't know got their car stolen. But if it happened to them, then they would start to take notice. They'd be crying bloody murder if it happened to themselves.

hah!

HAHAHAHA!

right. exactly right.

thing is, do you think being on the other side of that fence makes THE VICTIM ANY MORE RELIABLE?

this is a point that is always always ALWAYS ALWAYS MISSED while non ip holders are criticized for having nothing at stake - being wounded makes you less able to see clearly. ever hear of "conflict of interest"... if you've got a stake, you're not neutral.

what did i say? that i am able to look beyond my self interest in regards to this (hey, an indian or sri lankan may be getting "my" project someday and do it with his cracked copy of maya. more power to him).

but most people can't. ain't that a [email protected]#$? what if YOU ARE THE VICTIM?

i contend that you are even less able to see clearly!

you cannot see how the system may indeed impose injustice in maintaining the status quo and that the lunatics in the asylum may have a point.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

you have got it absolutely right.

IT DEPENDS ON WHERE YOUR INTERESTS LIE. that's the crux of it.

EVERYONE FIGHTS FOR THEIR OWN INTERESTS.

so screw the moralizing.

if corporations and ip holders squeeze every drop of blood from every rock and insist on draconian regulations, then heck yes the pirates and hackers and anarchists are gonna come out of the woodwork.

sure, it would be nice to stop piracy as it would be nice to make corporations play nice and fair and that every customer is treated as they should and we make sure that everyone gets to live in dignity.

guess what? not gonna happen. so why should only one side lay down their arms?

make no mistake, the game's rules are fixed. that's not fair. so can ya really blame the rabble for bending the rules in their favor now and again? the rabble are told time and time again, "life's not fair".... well, the big boys of the riaa, mpaa, bsa, etc. are just gonna have to suck it up and take that tune to heart themselves. i have precious little sympathy. they're big enough not to need mine... or yours for that matter.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

and "peoples' rights are being violated" alright. but why is it that you don't see the other side of it?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

and i am not stretching it. you are saying that piracy is akin to the kid stealing something in a store and how that's gonna lead to all kinds of etc etc etc.

i'm saying that link does not exist. i'm saying that for whatever reason, a kid who thinks nothing of pirating halo2 will not walk into a store and take the box. they're funny that way huh?

and the kid who makes the mix tape will not think about cold cocking britney spears at a club and rifling through her purse... even if "oops i did it again" was one of the songs.

although, i'll give ya this, it may be a gateway crime to pirating halo3.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

jin

jin choung
09-14-2007, 10:24 PM
license, schlicense....

if i bought it, it's mine. (hah, here's another reason for piracy... even if you buy it it's not yours! ha! [ you should be hearing mrs crabapple when i say ha!]) and autodesk and fusion are dumases (intentional mispelling to not be filtered) for their policy on reselling...

they should be shot, tortured, mutilated, etc etc etc and so on.

jin

jin choung
09-14-2007, 10:27 PM
If every law was 100% enforceable, there wouldn't be any murders. Any lame law can be enforced to some degree.


look it up if you get a chance. despite your resistance to accepting it, one of the tests for creating a law is whether it is "enforcible".

murder is enforcible.

clearly, piracy is not.

jin

zebrafish
09-14-2007, 10:41 PM
Quote from me in my e-mail to Michael:

"Question - Is the cost of transferring a Fusion license still $195?"

Quoted reply from Michael:

"Transfer within a company is $195, to a third party is $995."

I don't know how much clearer he could make it or how much clearer I could ask the question. Perhaps he was just annoyed with me since I was calling into question their subscription service and the cost of upgrading from 4.0 to 5.2 was outrageous. Who knows.

It seems like all of these companies are now into the maintenance/subscription fee concept. It's a way for them to continually make money and guaranteed income instead of making really great strides in upgrades to make people WANT to upgrade and pay for it. You figure... they could go for two years (or more) before the next point release and we would have paid 2 x $395 - quite a bit more than a standard $495 upgrade. They say it's to provide faster point releases and fixes but IMO it is all about $. I may be wrong, but at this moment that's how I see it.

I would bet that he said that because he was annoyed, because all these
posts I found were about transferring the expensive version that costs thousands of dollars, to a third party.

for example:

http://tinyurl.com/2hzfuc

http://tinyurl.com/2xhqgy

$2000 plus $995 would be more than $2700.


http://tinyurl.com/2mhk3u

Fusion 5 for sale, transfer fee $250.

http://tinyurl.com/2pko6h

Fusion 5 for sale, transfer fee $195.

http://tinyurl.com/2bslck

Digital Fusion 3.12 for sale , transfer fee $195

now for cgsociety:

http://tinyurl.com/ytrw7u

Here's one that agrees with you, so I dunno.

When did you say they told it was $995? To know that, would give an idea about whether or not they are being inconsistent (ie, being pigs when
they feel like it).

zebrafish
09-14-2007, 10:44 PM
license, schlicense....

if i bought it, it's mine. (hah, here's another reason for piracy... even if you buy it it's not yours! ha! [ you should be hearing mrs crabapple when i say ha!]) and autodesk and fusion are dumases (intentional mispelling to not be filtered) for their policy on reselling...

they should be shot, tortured, mutilated, etc etc etc and so on.

jin

I'm inclined to be rather angry myself, but I'm over a barrel at the moment.

I agree with the 'even if you buy it, it's not yours." Ridiculous.

jin choung
09-14-2007, 10:52 PM
yeah. my condolences.

there's gotta be a special place in guantanamo for people like this....

jin

zebrafish
09-14-2007, 11:08 PM
yeah. my condolences.

there's gotta be a special place in guantanamo for people like this....

jin

Thank you very much.

Steve Roberts. yeah, the CEO. Maybe I need to go talk to him.
Don't think I couldn't. I'm real good at going over people's heads.
Getting any where is another matter.

jin choung
09-14-2007, 11:10 PM
Now how cool would it be to act as a complete stereo type hollywood pirate at court just to screw with 'm.

that's like only the coolest idea ever! it would WELL be worth the almost inevitable contempt of court charge!

and if they wanna get really... errr... festive... they can be the pirates of the carribean pirates and try to outdo each other in how many crustaceans they can actually glue to their bodies - extra points if they're still alive.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

ok, so anybody in THIS thread (of all threads) pick up on the insidiously subtle (apparently) anti-piracy pontification in RATATOUILLE?

"don't steal. create."

ugh... i could almost hear it coming from a monolithic steve jobs bobble head.

movie loses big points in my book because of it. such blatant moralizing... tsk tsk.

jin

zebrafish
09-14-2007, 11:40 PM
Thank you very much.

Steve Roberts. yeah, the CEO. Maybe I need to go talk to him.
Don't think I couldn't. I'm real good at going over people's heads.
Getting any where is another matter.


hmm..usually what happens when I do this is I don't quite get what I want,
but changes do get made.

For example, the local community college ended up adding an extra class
to their 3D program, to help the beginning students out more. And I got a nice letter from the president of the college, but what I really wanted was
a decent 3D teacher. I didn't get that.

This will probably be about the same. Bogus!

sculptactive
09-15-2007, 12:38 AM
The amount softimage charge to transfer a license is piracy.
Realflow and Maxwell cannot be transfered.

It make you realise how great Newtek's policies are.

Lightwolf
09-15-2007, 03:08 AM
Im glad you havent had issues - have you got any worley products?

Ever swapped a dongle?

I did, no problem at all. I got new activation codes within a day (which is fien considering the time difference.


Ever had to do without your own software you have paid for while you have to reregister your own software?

Yes, Adobe, because they kep sending the wrong keys for weeks. But that's Adobe.

We've had purchases that took 20 minutes from the customer ordering on our website to him receiving the key. If we're up and if we get the donlge ID quickly.

Cheers,
Mike

vadermanchild
09-15-2007, 09:04 AM
I did, no problem at all. I got new activation codes within a day (which is fien considering the time difference.

Yes, Adobe, because they kep sending the wrong keys for weeks. But that's Adobe.

We've had purchases that took 20 minutes from the customer ordering on our website to him receiving the key. If we're up and if we get the donlge ID quickly.

Cheers,
Mike

For me a day - and the hassle - means a lot. A unnessesary delay as I see it cause every piece of protection I seen is ultimately fultile due to the ease of access to illigitimate copies.

Lightwolf sounds like you got an ok solution - but what happens when someone buys thir first piece from you and lets say your on holiday, or out dancing the night away. Does that mean the licenese isnt sorted till you come back?

If the first experience is too long and someone REALLY NEEDS an extra licence and you dont have an automated system for when you are not at your computer then there is a real possibility that simply for speeds sake and conveinince they will go online to get a dongle free version.

Assuming your software is popular enough to be hacked.

HEY - great idea so that software protection will work!!!!

Just make sure no-one is interested in it in the first place!!!

zebrafish
09-15-2007, 09:15 AM
Friday afternoon - September 14th, 2007. My guess is that Eye-on took too long to get v5 to market and didn't make enough money with upgrades. So they decided not only to add the subscription service but also increase the price of license transfers. This way they may have more purchases of the full version than people who bought an older one and THEN upgraded.

At this point I think I will still end up selling Fusion4 (if possible) at a severely reduced rate because I feel that Eye-on is simply selling out - they just want more money now and feel that this is the way to get it.

Hopefully Nuke will end up at 64bit and still have a lower price - about $3500 - and have much better EXR suppport.

Oh well...

But don't you think the transfer fee should be reduced downward as older versions become less valuable? There is a real hole in their thinking here.

For me to pay $195 to transfer a $200 software is, well......and an owner of fusion 4 should not have to pay as much as for transfering fusion 5.

riki
09-15-2007, 09:27 AM
I'm pretty sure I've instances of people buying software, making a copy and then reselling it the next day on eBay as an "unwanted gift". Having a dongle makes that kinda practice harder.

Elmar Moelzer
09-15-2007, 09:32 AM
Yes, I think that a Dongle is a good protection for that.
I also, really, really, really dont feel like answering support- questions to people who did not legally buy our product (and I am sure legal customers would rather have me spend my time with them than some pirate).
Since they have to register with us, I always know who owns what license.
CU
Elmar

CMT
09-15-2007, 09:34 AM
what did i say? that i am able to look beyond my self interest in regards to this (hey, an indian or sri lankan may be getting "my" project someday and do it with his cracked copy of maya. more power to him).

You keep saying this, yet it makes no sense. "I can look beyond my self interest". Everything you're saying is what you believe and "celebrate" so it's exactly part of your self interest. It's even more apparent with that last quoted statement where you'd do business that way.


you cannot see how the system may indeed impose injustice in maintaining the status quo and that the lunatics in the asylum may have a point.

I tend to side with the sane, personally.



and "peoples' rights are being violated" alright. but why is it that you don't see the other side of it?

I do see the other side and sympathize with those who have less than I do (which isn't much to begin with). But I don't believe the "Robin Hoods" of the world are making the situation any better. It's the lazy man's solution.

Lightwolf
09-15-2007, 10:40 AM
Lightwolf sounds like you got an ok solution - but what happens when someone buys thir first piece from you and lets say your on holiday, or out dancing the night away. Does that mean the licenese isnt sorted till you come back?
Holidays aren't an issue, I'm self-employed and have been for ages, I've deleted that word from my dictionary. Even if I travel the laptop comes along. And there is two of us here.
If I dance the night away... tough - but ever company has business hours and we're usually available way beyond them. I have also yet to see a fully automated ordering process down to receiving the license.


If the first experience is too long and someone REALLY NEEDS an extra licence and you dont have an automated system for when you are not at your computer then there is a real possibility that simply for speeds sake and conveinince they will go online to get a dongle free version.

The problem with a fully automated system is the same as with copy protection - it should be reasonably safe as well. I'm not sure if I'd like to store customer data (in their interest as well!) on a system that is readily reached from the internet.
And the smaller you are, the less ressources you have to create something like that - because you either do it right or you just don't.


Assuming your software is popular enough to be hacked.

You mean cracked I suppose. Cracking is a sport, a challenge - not releated to the usefullness or popularity of the software.

Cheers,
Mike

vadermanchild
09-15-2007, 06:09 PM
Sorry to hear your always available to send out peoples keys.

You sound like a clever chap - im sure you could figure out a way to automate the process.

Also there is a large number of teams that concentrate on the more popular software...but from what I can see just about everything is available easily from one group or another..

jin choung
09-15-2007, 06:43 PM
You keep saying this, yet it makes no sense. "I can look beyond my self interest". Everything you're saying is what you believe and "celebrate" so it's exactly part of your self interest. It's even more apparent with that last quoted statement where you'd do business that way.


it makes sense. just because i celebrate an idea does not mean it's good for my self interest. i can celebrate equality but it can mean that i'm made personally a bit poorer as a result. what's not to understand?

don't understand that last bit? what statement talks about how i'd do business?

anyhoo, pfffft.... wake me up when the world starts taking care of the poor and the powerful stop abusing their power and everybody isn't in it for themselves.... then we'll talk about piracy.

as for "lazy man's solution"... innovation is bred by laziness. i give you the remote control.

jin

DiscreetFX
09-15-2007, 06:48 PM
I should add that piracy hurts Newtek also, anyone that needs to use Lightwave 3D should buy their own copy. The discovery version is for learning and seeing if you need to add the product to your workflow. SpeedEDIT has hopefully not been cracked. NewTek has put a lot of time and effort in developing it and it's a relatively new package. Editors that need it should buy a license to help it grow, mature and be a great success. Way to many video editing programs on Windows, some of the less powerful ones should die off. It is hard to spread the word and let everyone know about a package that is not in BestBuy, Comp-USA and Fry's though (SE).

jin choung
09-15-2007, 06:55 PM
yah, pound for pound, piracy probably hurts smaller developers more than the bigger ones.

in terms of dollars lost, alias and adobe probably lose money on orders of magnitude more than newtek. but they can absorb the hit and reap the benefits of gaining "mindshare" and having the piracy help maintain their industry leadership position.

if you pirate a smaller company, they lose less money but it hurts more.

jin

vadermanchild
09-15-2007, 08:30 PM
I first saw speededit available on torrent sites over a month ago IIRC....

My point is if you want to pirate you can. Theres nothing to stop it. Especially copy protection.

Spend the development money and dongle money and administration costs on proper development. I mean its not like LW could do with extra cash spent on its devlopment is it???

CMT
09-15-2007, 10:07 PM
it makes sense. just because i celebrate an idea does not mean it's good for my self interest. i can celebrate equality but it can mean that i'm made personally a bit poorer as a result. what's not to understand?


Well anyone is capable of that.

And I see no reason why celebrating equality should mean that you are poorer as a result either.


don't understand that last bit? what statement talks about how i'd do business?

The part where you said "hey, an indian or sri lankan may be getting "my" project someday and do it with his cracked copy of maya. more power to him."



anyhoo, pfffft.... wake me up when the world starts taking care of the poor and the powerful stop abusing their power and everybody isn't in it for themselves.... then we'll talk about piracy.

So everyone else needs to start caring before you start to care?


as for "lazy man's solution"... innovation is bred by laziness. i give you the remote control.
Ok. Sure...... But what has that got to do with the discussion at hand?

jin choung
09-16-2007, 01:20 AM
And I see no reason why celebrating equality should mean that you are poorer as a result either.


argh... in the context of our discussion, i am saying that piracy levels the playing field between the haves and the have nots... that piracy is a force for egalitarianism. and i celebrate this because it lets the indians and sri lankans take "my" job using pirated software - thus impoverishing me potentially.

THAT is the equality i celebrate.

comprende?

jin

jin choung
09-16-2007, 01:22 AM
Perhaps you should rephrase that. Since there are obviously MANY people who are not "in it for themselves," the "everybody" in your statement should be changed to perhaps most people. Don't ya think? Blanket statements like that are usually not true and in this case, definitely not.

:)


"obviously"? who? fine there may theoretically be people who are somehow not in some way "in it for themselves"... i'll allow the possiblity and i hereby ammend it to "many"... perhaps "most".

jin

Lightwolf
09-16-2007, 04:07 AM
Sorry to hear your always available to send out peoples keys.
Lol.... hehe...


You sound like a clever chap - im sure you could figure out a way to automate the process.

Of course... let me go in hiding for half a year, stop supporting existing customers, stop developing new ideas and products, and I probably could (there really is no budget to pay a third party for that work).
However, I have the feeling that this isn't what our customers would want ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
09-16-2007, 04:13 AM
My point is if you want to pirate you can. Theres nothing to stop it. Especially copy protection.

Spend the development money and dongle money and administration costs on proper development. I mean its not like LW could do with extra cash spent on its devlopment is it???
I agree with the first point, but not with the conclusion. As was mentioned before, copy protection is there to stop casual copying. After all: How many of you run OSX on a non-Apple PC? It can be done, but the process is hard.

This isn't a black and white situation, you need to weigh the benefits. Where to I (as a developer) get the best value, how much time can I spend oncopy protection in return for more income? It needs balancing, and there is a point where spending more time on the protection results in little gain in income, however, there is also the start of the curve where even adding a little protection adds a fairly large amount of revenue.

See, we have two products at entirely different price points, plus I've had some free stuff out in the past with requests for donations (never even got one). Surprisingly... the most expensive product generates the highest revenue.

Cheers,
Mike

zebrafish
09-16-2007, 05:33 AM
I have to agree with Jin Choung about the software companies only encouraging piracy. I cannot do it myself, but I can understand, because these software companies start to torture the people who try to be honest.

Now it looks like Eyeon is blocking me from access to my .dat file - like they just erased it or something. I am still the legal owner of the "license," but they didn't like my tone because they screwed up, and did not inform me about license transfer fees before I sold the thing. I think just about anyone would get mad about *that*.

I tried every browser, turned off all blockers of every kind ,and all firewalls and virus protection, and still the download comes up: Zero kilobytes.

Even though the software is tied to a dongle or toaster card or whatever, there's also this .dat file that you have to download to get it to work. Silly me, I've been way too trusting.

Can you imagine paying these people $5,000 for a software, and having them go: "We don't like your tone of voice, we are taking it back." ?????

CMT
09-16-2007, 08:24 AM
argh... in the context of our discussion, i am saying that piracy levels the playing field between the haves and the have nots... that piracy is a force for egalitarianism. and i celebrate this because it lets the indians and sri lankans take "my" job using pirated software - thus impoverishing me potentially.

THAT is the equality i celebrate.

comprende?

jin

A force for egalitarianism? Equality through crime? Such an elegant solution.
Well, celebrate it all you want. It's the wrong way to go about it.

vadermanchild
09-16-2007, 09:53 AM
I got a feeling the "CASUAL COPIER" who find themselves uable to get around copy protection needs to be renamed to ..."IM SO CASUAL I DONT KNOW WHERE TO GET PIRATE SOFTWARE COPIER"

Take speededit (or LW 9.3) - Someone xplain how the protection deters your average joe casual copier; when within 40 seconds of looking you can have access to any Newtek software you want...dongle free...some would say hassle free.

I say doing a simple search is a pretty casual thing to do - this gives every casual copier the means to circumvent your protection.

So lets say they are the uniformed not terrible eager to copy CASUAL COPIER ; these people must be real lazy cause it seems they dont want to even do a simple search to overcome protection on a software they want to copy.

The fact is the REAL Casual copier can (and does) copy your software with or WITHOUT protection.

There are various reasons for this but lets not avoid the inherent problem with protection. 99% of software is available protection free in an convienent manner.

If your writing protection into software for the people who dont know how to google for cracked software then at least be aware this must be a sliver of sales your working to protect and administrate.

SBowie
09-16-2007, 10:44 AM
argh... in the context of our discussion, i am saying that piracy levels the playing field between the haves and the have nots... that piracy is a force for egalitarianism.This is the same argument that justifies kidnapping tourists as a cottage industry in poor countries. Again, theft IS theft - it's just a question of scale. And, quite apart from issues of morality, it is counterproductive.

Whether we are talking about copyright protection or gross global economic imbalances which contribute to starvation and disease in poor lands, stooping to theft as a 'cure' or even a 'band-aid' solution just masks the problems. It just gives ammunition to those who for entirely selfish reasons oppose meaningful change. A situation where they can easily point to rampant unethical behavior in another country is a dream-come-true for the propagandists employed by economic and political isolationists. The 'spinners' will (and do) use this to confuse the public and smear those who oppose their practices - 'they are stealing your jobs!', they will declaim. If anything, then, attempts to justify unethical behavior actually prolong the suffering, draining support and sympathy from those causes.

And don't bother repeating that line about mix tapes to me. I don't have any, nor any pirated software, nor unauthorized copies of DVD's, etc., etc. I'm not perfect, but if I become aware of some way that I am in breach of ethical or legal standards, I will immediately rectify the matter.

If I don't like the strictures of an overbearing entertainment industry, I don't buy their product. No-one ever died of not being able to see the final episode of Friends, or hear Britney Spears yodeling. If I really can't get by without Maya, I'll pay for it, or work for someone who did. Voting with my wallet puts just as much pressure on the industry to change for the benefit of the consumer as piracy does. The difference is that the defenders of the industry can't point to theft on my part as a smokescreen for their greedy and really counterproductive practices.

The same thing hold true for the various arguments that certain big companies make deliberate use of piracy, as a way to achieve dominance. And we want to support them in this? Rather than encouraging innovative alternatives? ("Why should I buy this up and coming, reasonably priced alternative when I can simply steal the big name product and pat myself on the back saying they expected me to do so anyway.")

Every single 'justification' you can come up with for unethical behavior ultimately hurts other people in greater or lesser measure - real people, not merely big nameless corporate monoliths. The very same type of arguments are broadly used to justify tax evasion, ripping off insurance companies, and on and on. I don't expect this simple truth to sway anyone, because for the broad majority selfishness always wins over ethics - and piracy is an act of selfishness. 'I want, therefore I will take ... and I will dream up some excuse that satisfies me to let me do that. Hey, I know - I'm Robin Hood, and I am stealing from the rich, and giving to ... myself.'

IMI
09-16-2007, 02:21 PM
argh... in the context of our discussion, i am saying that piracy levels the playing field between the haves and the have nots... that piracy is a force for egalitarianism. and i celebrate this because it lets the indians and sri lankans take "my" job using pirated software - thus impoverishing me potentially.

THAT is the equality i celebrate.

comprende?

jin


I thought at first this was just sarcasm.

Are you saying that you believe so strongly in an inherent right of all people (Indians, Sri Lanken's, for example) to have this certain equality, that you'd defend their software theft even if it meant they could put you on the unemployment rolls? Because maybe their social structure has held them back, they're at a disadvantage and the only way they can compete is to use pirated software? That's the key to equality?

Or, was it just sarcasm?

parm
09-16-2007, 03:15 PM
This is the same argument that justifies kidnapping tourists as a cottage industry in poor countries. Again, theft IS theft - it's just a question of scale. And, quite apart from issues of morality, it is counterproductive.

So, downloading software for free is only theft then? I thought it was much worse. Piracy no less :)

Kidnapping ups the ante a fair bit though. Wow!

What about, if I were to lend a DVD movie. That I bought, to a friend to copy for himself. Isn't that just called sharing?

A question of scale you say

Here in the UK. People who steal cars and drive them like maniacs. For fun. Putting others lives at risk, are called 'joyriders'. Even the legal term TADA, 'taking and driving away'. Seems somehow, to play down the gravity of the offense.

Actual theft. You know going into a store and helping yourself to stock without paying. Is called 'Shoplifting'.

Strange that the illegal copying and distribution of software. Is accorded, in euphemism at least, far greater weight than these seemingly much more serious offenses.

SBowie
09-16-2007, 03:42 PM
I'm sorry Parm, I don't seem to be able to follow your point. We seem to agree that all the activities you mention are improper, and that they differ in the degree of impropriety. I'm not defending the terms people apply, nor equating vehicular homicide with shoplifting.

To use those examples, I'm really saying that just because shoplifting isn't as grave as driving like a maniac does not make shoplifting "ok" ... and further, that attempts to paint shoplifting as 'a good thing' because 1) the shopkeepers prices are too high, 2)the manufacturer engages in inequitable marketing globally, 3) the shoplifter is a student, poor, etc., etc., are lame.

I am not suggesting the death penalty for software piracy - I just get tired of bogus excuses for petty theft.

IMI
09-16-2007, 03:47 PM
Strange that the illegal copying and distribution of software. Is accorded, in euphemism at least, far greater weight than these seemingly much more serious offenses.

I don't know. "Piracy" as bad as it may sound, IMO, has nothing on the term "Grand Larceny", which is defined as ...larceny of a significant amount of property, in some cases, it can be less. In the U.S., it is often defined as an amount valued at $200 or more. In New York, Grand Larceny refers to amounts of $1000 or more."
(According to Wikipedia)

Sounds more like a disease, than a crime.
It's all the same, though. Theft is theft, plain and simple.

Some, more liberal types might elect to downplay the harshness of the terminology, so as not to sting the fragile thieves' minds too much and thus damage their Self Worth in the name of Political Correctness, but at the base of all crimes is the fact that a crime is a crime.

It is too bad though that we live in a society which considers some thievery to be acceptable when there are extenuating circumstances someone may presume to justify it.

Off this topic, but back to the equality thing: I wonder how many poor schools, or groups of up-and-coming students in, say, India, for example, have bothered to simply ask Newtek or Autodesk, Adobe, or anyone, for that matter, simply for a donation of some legal software?

SBowie
09-16-2007, 03:56 PM
Are you saying that you believe so strongly in an inherent right of all people (Indians, Sri Lanken's, for example) to have this certain equality, that you'd defend their software theft even if it meant they could put you on the unemployment rolls?Hmmm.

Personally I'd be more convinced of someone's concern over inequality if they manifested their conviction by sending their own (legally purchased) software to an impoverished nation. Stating 'Just go ahead and steal from my neighbour, it's fine with me' or 'By stealing this software, I am showing myself to be a champion of equality' falls a little short of noble to me.

(BTW, please note I pointedly am not agreeing with any suggestion the several cultures mentioned above are any more likely to engage in illicit practices of any sort than their Western confreres - I don't want to leave that impression at all. It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out the opposite, actually - but that has no bearing on the main issue.)

IMI
09-16-2007, 04:02 PM
Yeah, I feel bad for people who have to walk to work because they can't afford a car, but I'm not about to give someone mine. Nor my software. Then again, I'm not on a mission to champion the presumed rights of the downtrodden. ;)

Agreed on the India/Sri Lanka mention. I only used that because it was the example given. I'd be more likely to vote for Russia and China as the top of the offender's list. ;)

parm
09-16-2007, 04:23 PM
I'm sorry Parm, I don't seem to be able to follow your point. We seem to agree that all the activities you mention are improper, and that they differ in the degree of impropriety. I'm not defending the terms people apply, nor equating vehicular homicide with shoplifting.

Yeah. I see what you mean.

I think what I'm trying to say is. That the use of euphemism only clouds these issues, making them unnecessarily emotive.

For example. Describing the issue of software piracy in all it's forms as simple theft. Just does not seem correct.

Can everything that is illegal be described as theft?

Clearly not.

Is copying and distributing software, without the consent of the authors illegal?

Certainly it is.

But is it theft?

Possibly in some circumstances, but not in any way that matches the concept of theft, that I was taught and grew up with. It is what it is, nothing more.

Suffice to say. I've read nothing in this thread. That has given me cause for concern that it goes on. I just don't think it's all that important in the scheme of things. Car theft, kidnapping of tourists and binge drinking are far more serious and real problems.

IMI
09-16-2007, 04:33 PM
Suffice to say. I've read nothing in this thread. That has given me cause for concern that it goes on. I just don't think it's all that important in the scheme of things. Car theft, kidnapping of tourists and binge drinking are far more serious and real problems.

Agreed those are serious problems, but then again, Cancer, Child Pornography, and War are serious problems too. That goes without saying.

It seems kind of odd someone would enter a software piracy thread just to say he's not concerned because it's trivial in comparison.

jin choung
09-16-2007, 05:07 PM
imi,

i'm not being sarcastic. i really think it's great that as more and more "stuff" becomes software, there is less that separates the haves from the have nots. i really do think it is a force for egalitarianism.

sbowie,

i'm a pragmatist. not an idealist.... hehehe... yes. most certainly not an idealist.

the game is not fair. why an undying commitment to play by the rules? especially when those who made the rules are using it for their unfair advantage (again, all the examples of big companies exerting "rights" they are not entitled to, and most of this stuff ending up not in the "fundamentals" of ethics but legal technicalities).

put it this way, during prohibition, you wouldn't have a drink would you? because it's against the law? whether it was sensible or not?

i'm more free thinking. the law doesn't make sense. i'll have that drink.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

again, i'm not arguing that piracy is RIGHT.

but in a world that is full of corruption and inquity of all kinds, i see it as a balancing factor. something that keeps the "big guys" watching their backs and their steps.

it is a cheating move that counters cheaters.

jin

parm
09-16-2007, 05:23 PM
It seems kind of odd someone would enter a software piracy thread just to say he's not concerned because it's trivial in comparison.

Why?

Besides, the premise of the thread. That Piracy hurts developers. Is not even clearcut on balance of the replies.

From what I can gather, and I'm open to correction here. Who are the people that are using pirated software?

* Compulsive collectors. Who have little or no inclination to use or learn the software. They just want to fill up their hard drives with every available application on the planet and swap them with their friends.

* People who have purchased a software but don't want the hassle imposed by the copy protection.

* People who are getting their foot on the ladder. They've used a cracked copy to learn the software or do a first job. But later purchased one or more legal copies of said software.

None of the above can seriously be suggested as contributing to the loss of earnings for a software company.

If you really want to argue the toss that every unauthorized download represents an actual loss. Why don't the companies concerned test that, and offset their putative loss against their next tax demand. If the Inland Revenue buy that argument, then the pirates are doing the software companies a big favour. :)

OK. On to the others:

* Allegedly there are professional studios and individuals using cracked software.

I agree that is a problem for developers. But, it's their problem. They need to do some research, offer incentives. Generally make it more attractive and easier to buy into the legitimate use of their products. Then going down the illegal route of downloading with all it's inherent risks.

* Finally it seems that India and Sri Lanka are rife with illegal downloads. With a burgeoning animation and effects industry being built on cracked software. Well if India is the next big thing all set to price WETA and ILM out of the market.

Newtek needs to get in there quick. Special deals for Universities and colleges. Along with trainers and education programs. Get Lightwave into Bollywood.

That's why, after following what's been said. Mountains and Molehills come to mind.

SBowie
09-16-2007, 05:26 PM
But is it theft?Sure.

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law

Main Entry: theft
Function: noun
Etymology: Old English thiefth
Definition: LARCENY; broadly : a criminal taking of the property or services of another without consent NOTE: Theft commonly encompasses by statute a variety of forms of stealing formerly treated as distinct crimes.

SBowie
09-16-2007, 05:30 PM
it is a cheating move that counters cheaters.One does not rise above cheater by joining their ranks. The guy that would steal a pencil from your desk would very soon take your car if he thought he had an equal chance of getting away with it.

parm
09-16-2007, 05:39 PM
Sure.

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law

Main Entry: theft
Function: noun
Etymology: Old English thiefth
Definition: LARCENY; broadly : a criminal taking of the property or services of another without consent NOTE: Theft commonly encompasses by statute a variety of forms of stealing formerly treated as distinct crimes.

Are you a Lawyer? :)

Yes, I know what the definition of theft is.

It's just that. It's by no means certain, that some of the things we are describing stand up to that definition.

IMI
09-16-2007, 05:44 PM
Ah, well, I'd thought this had become a discussion of ethics and legality.

It'd take an awful lot of word manipulation to convince me that software piracy is anything but theft. Someone created it, someone copyrighted and/or patented it, someone owns the rights to sell it as he sees fit. Anyone circumventing that in any way, and using it without paying, and/or the copyright owner's permission, is breaking the laws attached to it.
The company which owns the right to a certain software may come up with the most idiotic and annoying protection scheme imaginable, but in the end, it's their right to do so. It's also their legal right to be able to dictate any terms, no matter how unreasonable they may seem.
Convenience and need or desire, in my worldview, are not legitimate reasons to unlawfully possess or distribute that which one has no right to.



Generally make it more attractive and easier to buy into the legitimate use of their products.


Why?
If you lose your car keys and have to pay a locksmith to make you a new set are you going to have a professional car thief hotwire it for you so it never happens again? Rail against the auto industry for allowing a protection scheme which might cause you undue expense and inconvenience one day?
How is it the responsibility of the software manufacturer to make it desirable for the public to do the right and legal thing?
Should Society as a whole need an incentive to just be honest and take the bad with the good? Yeah, maybe today's society, but there's alot to be said for those who still try to protect their intellectual copyright in spite of the futility of it and the angry complaints.
There's too much of that attitude of it's too hard, so I give in... attitude going around today.

vadermanchild
09-16-2007, 08:40 PM
IMI your car analogy is misguided if I read it correctly.

Buy a modern car with modern securtity and you`ll find its not so easy to hot wire.

Unlike copy protection which is easy to circumvent....

Then theres the point that most people WANT this security in their car and are willing to pay for it due to the inconvienence if having a vehicle stolen.

Unlike copy protection which inconvienences the user from the second they place an order and is not something someon ewould be willing to pay for.

THeft is theft - its not justifiable or defnenceable

But developers are kiddding themselves if they think it makes a blind bit of differenece.

edit - excuse my speeeling - lazy fingers tonight

zebrafish
09-16-2007, 10:58 PM
Ah, well, I'd thought this had become a discussion of ethics and legality.

It'd take an awful lot of word manipulation to convince me that software piracy is anything but theft. Someone created it, someone copyrighted and/or patented it, someone owns the rights to sell it as he sees fit. Anyone circumventing that in any way, and using it without paying, and/or the copyright owner's permission, is breaking the laws attached to it.
The company which owns the right to a certain software may come up with the most idiotic and annoying protection scheme imaginable, but in the end, it's their right to do so. It's also their legal right to be able to dictate any terms, no matter how unreasonable they may seem.

dictate any terms? You know, there has to be a legal limit, and I think the legal profession is eventually going to start sitting up and taking notice.

This business that I have "be real nice" and kowtow to them, even in the face of their negligence, because like, they didn't actually sell me the software man, is plain vicious. I hope there's a class action suit someday.

jin choung
09-16-2007, 11:30 PM
One does not rise above cheater by joining their ranks.

neither does one keep his shirt from being stripped off his back by being altruistic.

again, you're the idealist not me. i'm not talking about anything remotely like "rising above".... keep the [email protected]#holes at bay and i'm golden.

imi,

even by legal definition, piracy is not theft - if we want to be technical about it.

theft generally involves a commodity that is taken and therefore can no longer be sold because of its absence. piracy does not reduce the inventory of the pirated item.

also, again, what about the guy making the mix tape for his girl friend? is that wrong? maybe... but does it matter? that is the big question. is it something anyone should have to give a second's thought too?

would you have a drink during prohibition?

megalodon,

tell me you understand that capitalism works because it is dependent on the decidedly non idealistic notion that everyone works strenuously to seek their own benefit.

tell me that you understand that other systems like socialism are problematic precisely because it is idealistic and that it turns out people just don't function like that.

spare me the sermon and the thumbs down. exceptions may exist (hey, i said i'd allow it) but the world and history bears testimony to the virtue of man.

jin

jin choung
09-16-2007, 11:33 PM
How is it the responsibility of the software manufacturer to make it desirable for the public to do the right and legal thing?
Should Society as a whole need an incentive to just be honest and take the bad with the good? .

hahaha... ummmmm... bittorrent says yes.

jin

Cougar12dk
09-17-2007, 12:14 AM
If NT keeps on issuing useless keys....... or issuing keys too damned LATE, then of course people are gonna get fed up with them! Why the heck wouldn't they???? How hard is it?!?!!?

They get the keys out in time every other month or so, but the rest of the time, we have to struggle with LW not accepting the keys NT has dished out.

*Sorry if this takes the thread too far off topic, but I think this is ONE reason people pirate. They're escaping this ******' dongle hell.

doimus
09-17-2007, 12:20 AM
Piracy is just free advertising.

Take for example Windows 3.1 and AutoCAD 10.
Both were VERY easy to copy illegally and both made a household name out of those two companies.

The huge number of torrent leechers may be a good indication of the succesfull marketing campaign, or the beginning of it. Not everyone who sees an advert has to buy the product, right?

Then, toorent leechers could get trial versions as well but getting full pirated copy is more dangerous, it's sexy, and sex sells.

jin choung
09-17-2007, 12:31 AM
that's the challenge of copy protection. dissuade casual piracy but not antagonize the people who should be rewarded and not punished - honest, loyal customers.

sometimes, i think software companies are NOT doing themselves a favor. with every customer they antagonize and inconvenience, they make their meager victory all the more pyrrhic.

if they employ copy protection, they gotta be fing johnny on the spot and make sure that every legit customer gets his requisite codes and keys when he needs it.

(or with pc games, let the user play the fing game without the fing disk in the fing drive if it's totally 5fing gigs installed on the fing hard drive already)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

in general, the software industry is fing this up big time.

if they want to curb piracy, they should be EMPHASIZING and MAGNIFYING the fact that when i buy something, it is MY PROPERTY my convenience is all.

license, schlicense. if i buy a book, it's my fing book. if i buy a software package, it's my fing software package. to do with as i will. and they fing dam well better let me sell it or give it to whoever the f i dam well please.

if they keep trying to minimize my ownership and eliminate the concept of "pride of ownership" altogether, they continually just wear away at people's incentive to not pirate.

jin

Lightwolf
09-17-2007, 01:04 AM
license, schlicense. if i buy a book, it's my fing book.
Erm, no it isn't. It is your copy of the book. You do not own the rights to the content.
Funny, I thought people in the media business should be more aware of how licenses and IP work, after all, your work is covered by the same rules as well.

Cheers,
Mike

jin choung
09-17-2007, 01:28 AM
it's my fing book. in whatever sense i mean that, that is what i mean. :)

in that exact same sense, it's my fing software package. :)

can i be any clearer?

jin

glibness aside - people for centuries have been claiming a book to be theirs. demanding it back, giving it and selling it to others. in the same way, people have owned cars, without owning the right to the design of the car. i'm hip. i'm saavy. but software is just like the book and car. if it's mine, it's mine. they shouldn't muck around with nitpicking when we never did before. and the more they do, the more they minimize our ownership, the more they make piracy a problem for themselves.

Lightwolf
09-17-2007, 01:41 AM
it's my fing book. in whatever sense i mean that, that is what i mean. :)

in that exact same sense, it's my fing software package. :)

can i be any clearer?

Yup, but that isn't true The physical copy is yours. That's all though. Make a movie out of it and prepare to get sued ;)

Cheers,
Mike

jin choung
09-17-2007, 02:08 AM
"that's all though"

that's enough.

and in the exact same sense, it is my software package. to do with as i will. just like the book.

companies that dare to revise that ownership do so at their rightful peril.

jin

archijam
09-17-2007, 02:12 AM
Why not fight fire with fire?

Once (back in the day) on napster you used to download music, but it was only the first 15 seconds of the song, on repeat, for the exact length of the song (more or less 'identically' duplicated through automation).

Why not use your render farm as fake-torrent-seed nodes for your products. Make 30 different versions, add comments like ace and a 5 star rating or two and you are away. I'm sure many people ont he forums would help seed if you asked nicely ..

Hm get on the DCC network while you're at it .. those are the hard core guys ..

Stronger protection will not help zip.

j.

Lightwolf
09-17-2007, 02:55 AM
and in the exact same sense, it is my software package. to do with as i will. just like the book.
Yup. you just don't realize that the ownership on the book is limited as well.

So really it is no different, except for the fact that it is easier to copy software than to copy a book (identically) or a car, rolex watch, nike shoes whatever.

Cheers,
Mike

jin choung
09-17-2007, 03:44 AM
you just don't realize that the ownership on the book is limited as well.


i realize. it is software companies that fail to realize that their software package is just like my book.

archijam,

i've wondered this as well. why not seed warez sites with versions of your software that will cripple and/or wipe out the host computer... perhaps even flashing the bios and really rendering the computer a piece of junk.

i'm actually not joking. everything that i've been saying so far is the equivalent of "all's fair...".

i can only guess that software companies don't want to open up that can of worms.

first, legally, they are a big target and for some reason (again, i'm being serious here and not ironic), the law frowns upon such proactive measures.

second, i think that the companies rightly feel that this is an arms race they cannot win.

if they declare war on the hackers, the hackers will go scorched earth.

they don't escalate because they can't.

jin

Lightwolf
09-17-2007, 03:54 AM
i realize. it is software companies that fail to realize that their software package is just like my book.

That wouldn't be a problem if users would treat software the same way, which they don't.


i've wondered this as well. why not seed warez sites with versions of your software that will cripple and/or wipe out the host computer... perhaps even flashing the bios and really rendering the computer a piece of junk.

i'm actually not joking. everything that i've been saying so far is the equivalent of "all's fair...".

And in this case highly illegal as well. You can can get into just soo much trouble with something like that...

Cheers,
Mike

archijam
09-17-2007, 06:33 AM
And in this case highly illegal as well. You can can get into just soo much trouble with something like that...

But surely broken or dummy copies are all go Mike, myes? You could even put a copy of EagleInABarrel in the zip, as a present, if you are feeling guilty about it...

Start torrenting dodgy copies of your software! I (for one) would be happy to seed them :) ...

j.

Lightwolf
09-17-2007, 06:49 AM
Start torrenting dodgy copies of your software! I (for one) would be happy to seed them :) ...

Torrents aren't a problem... but try tracking down a site in china or russia thta just offers straight downloads... or even worse uses one of the very popular file sharing services (megaupload and all the others) - They usually take a least 24 hours to react to our mails once a crack has been uploaded.

Cheers,
Mike

DiscreetFX
09-17-2007, 07:39 AM
If NT keeps on issuing useless keys....... or issuing keys too damned LATE, then of course people are gonna get fed up with them! Why the heck wouldn't they???? How hard is it?!?!!?

They get the keys out in time every other month or so, but the rest of the time, we have to struggle with LW not accepting the keys NT has dished out.

*Sorry if this takes the thread too far off topic, but I think this is ONE reason people pirate. They're escaping this ******' dongle hell.


This is not always the case, DiscreetFX's software is not protected in any way and it is still being pirated.

Cougar12dk
09-17-2007, 08:06 AM
I know .... LW is being pirated BIG time as well, so why not just throw the dongle ALL the way out? It's really stupid that legit users have to not be able to use their fairly expensive software, simply because the license keys they've been issued no longer work (not even the permanent one works for Pete's sake). I feel like freakin' parrot at times (dongle don't work, dongle don't work ... license key, license key don't work*gaaawk*) :thumbsdow :chicken:

SBowie
09-17-2007, 08:16 AM
neither does one keep his shirt from being stripped off his back by being altruistic.

al·tru·is·tic:
1. unselfishly concerned for or devoted to the welfare of others (opposed to egoistic).
a) At least we're finally abandoning the flimsy pretense that piracy is altruistic because it benefits the downtrodden. Good.

b) I am not arguing for altruism, though it is a lovely quality. I'm not even arguing for honesty, because it will fall on deaf ears. I'm just very weary of bogus excuses ... at least we've eliminated one.

c) I have a closet full of shirts. I didn't have to swipe any of them.


again, you're the idealist not me. i'm not talking about anything remotely like "rising above".... keep the [email protected]#holes at bay and i'm golden.You're in dreamland, my friend. History makes the outcome of decadence abundantly clear. Gleefully throwing your skateboard onto the slippery slope does zilch to keep that outcome at bay. Peeling away the excuses, doing so actually condones and contributes to the downward rush - effectively saying "Me too, me too!" This same ethos, when circumstances permit, produces the selfish abuse of influence and power by big business and governments decried earlier. 'Everyone else cheats, so why not me.' As I said, it's just a question of scale.

I'm not an idealist, actually. I pay for my shirts. I don't expect that to keep anyone from shoplifting, I have no expectation that anything I or any of us here do will stem the decline - but I won't be part of it, or hypocritically blast the 'cheaters' while joining in and calling it egalitarianism.

vadermanchild
09-17-2007, 08:36 AM
It seems Jin has caused such a rumpus that any good from this thread has been thwarted with talk of whether rape of farm animals is as justified as software piracy. Or murder is worse than car theft.

If Newtek is listening - Your protection is not working. A google search or torrent site search will confirm that just about every piece of newtek software is cracked and avilable - as is 99% of software.

As Cougar says - Throw out the dongle and give your paying cstomers a pain free install and painfree maintenance.

All developers are kidding themselves if they think their efforts are making a difference.

Cougar12dk
09-17-2007, 08:40 AM
Exactly what I would've said if I considered myself eloquent enough in english. Well said vadermanchild (nice nick bTW :) )

CMT
09-17-2007, 08:47 AM
i'm actually not joking. everything that i've been saying so far is the equivalent of "all's fair...".

No. The dominating theme of your approaches is revenge and destructive rather than passive, logical, productive and fair for all.


license, schlicense. if i buy a book, it's my fing book. if i buy a software package, it's my fing software package. to do with as i will. and they fing dam well better let me sell it or give it to whoever the f i dam well please.

if they keep trying to minimize my ownership and eliminate the concept of "pride of ownership" altogether, they continually just wear away at people's incentive to not pirate.

jin

You really need to settle down and take your Ritalin. Why are you getting so worked up? If you buy a video game, 3d software, or book off a shelf, there's usually no problem with selling the book or transferring the license to someone else. I've never come across any that doesn't allow this.

Do you really feel you are entitled to own the story itself just because you paid $5.99 for a book?

And don't you think companies are entitled to protect their property?

Lightwolf
09-17-2007, 08:52 AM
If Newtek is listening - Your protection is not working. A google search or torrent site search will confirm that just about every piece of newtek software is cracked and avilable - as is 99% of software.
Who says that means it isn't working though?

And no, I'm not going to draw yet another analogy here... make one up for yourselves ;)

Cheers,
Mike

SBowie
09-17-2007, 08:59 AM
All developers are kidding themselves if they think their efforts are making a difference.I have largely come to the same conclusion. The irony is that the majority are likely honest, and suffer these annoying measures in a largely ineffective attempt to foil those who will steal the product anyway. I doubt any cost/benefit analysis would support keeping them. Dropping protection schemes likely wouldn't have any significant impact on sales. And then we could stop having this stupid discussion.

SBowie
09-17-2007, 09:18 AM
If you buy a video game, 3d software, or book off a shelf, there's usually no problem with selling the book or transferring the license to someone else. I've never come across any that doesn't allow this.I don't want to be too hard on Jin - I disagree with him on this point (obviously), but that's a first in my recollection.

On the point above, some licenses are more restrictive than others - sometimes it is more like leasing a car than buying it. But it's your choice to enter into the transaction. I am not free to swipe a car from Hertz just because they lease them rather than selling it to me on terms I think are reasonable. No one is holding a gun to one's head and forcing you to buy it.

If a developer is too greedy or has stupid practices, vote with your wallet and buy from a competitor. This - the 'natural selection' of competition - actually does do some good. We've all seen examples of onetime near-tyrannical monopolies brought to their knees in this manner. Piracy, on the other hand - and as many have pointed out in this thread - can actually benefit the monopolies, cutting the props out from under up and coming competitors. 'Cheating the cheaters' does not hold any water as a viable mechanism for beneficial economic change.

kremesch73
09-17-2007, 11:35 AM
Dropping protection schemes likely wouldn't have any significant impact on sales.

Actually it would. There are several companies I refuse to buy from now because of their ridiculous protection that often causes more headaches than it's worth. They've lost me as a customer. Hence, they've lost their sales which is ironically counter-productive in argument that it's for saving their sales.

As a result, I've turned to other vendors with a 'slightly' more realistic view of how their users exist in real-life.

SBowie
09-17-2007, 11:40 AM
As a result, I've turned to other vendors with a 'slightly' more realistic view of how their users exist in real-life.If we accept that premise, then you have just validated my argument. Vote with your wallet.

kremesch73
09-17-2007, 12:28 PM
Quite naturally...
I wasn't arguing with you at all.
I was merely pointing out the irony in anti-piracy, and the fact that I believe they are hurting their own sales while thinking they are protecting them. It's a vicious cycle, really.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against protecting one's own property. But there are ways that are acceptable and practical and ways that are not, and it seems like some companies really don't understand where this line is drawn.

As far as piracy goes though... I don't even want to touch that one since it reminds me of a political or religious argument. All I will say is that I disagree with it. Stealing is stealing is stealing... and it will always be done.

vadermanchild
09-17-2007, 12:30 PM
I wouldnt go as far as Kremesch ; where the copy protection makes me buy a competing product...but I understand his reasons. The licencing is a farce.

Lets face it, LWs licence issues are a drop in the ocean compared to its other problems - but being a long time user of LW I find it hard to put down - although my patience has worn very thin.

However some customers will resort to piracy to relieve themselves of the dongle and license issues.

Newtek should be aware of this cause once a legit customer goes down this route who says it stops with one license.

Restrictive Licencing and protection create more problems than they solve.

SBowie
09-17-2007, 12:43 PM
Quite naturally...I wasn't arguing with you at all.
Oh, indeed - didn't mean to imply otherwise, sorry if it came out that way.

CMT
09-17-2007, 12:58 PM
The only case where copy protection made me switch software companies was when I bought Pixels 3D (Only $50 to begin with). It required that you run an app to get the computer to create an ID number unique to that machine. You then emailed that number to the company and waited for a confirmation email with yet another number to unlock the software. But if you reinstalled or updated your OS or switched computers, you had to do it all over again cuz that unlock number wouldn't work anymore. In the 3 months that I spent trying to work with it, I had to contact the company 3 times to get a new unlock number. Copy protection at it's worst. Absolutely ridiculous.

It wasn't a bad little program at all, though. Very good for beginners.

kremesch73
09-17-2007, 01:19 PM
It required that you run an app to get the computer to create an ID number unique to that machine. You then emailed that number to the company and waited for a confirmation email with yet another number to unlock the software. But if you reinstalled or updated your OS or switched computers, you had to do it all over again cuz that unlock number wouldn't work anymore.

It's licensing similar to your comment that really puts me off; ones that are tied to the ID. In all honesty, the dongle doesn't bother me half as much, even though I'd like to see them do away with it for convenient's sake.

Steamthrower
09-17-2007, 01:27 PM
I thought parm's lowdown of the situation (post #187) was a very thorough and good description.

But I notice that everyone is talking about applications that "gain people wealth", i.e. something that is used by a business/freelancer to complete his job. Stuff like MS Office, Lightwave, Digital Fusion, Photoshop, etc.

Can this piracy issue not be extended to anything software? What about computer games? Nobody makes money playing games. Yet is pirating a game wrong in the same way that pirating Photoshop is wrong? I don't know.

It seems to me that one has to just think it through for himself. Take music. Say one hears an Avril Lavigne song on the radio and records it (first, is he has to like listening Avril Lavigne...). Or he finds an Avril Lavigne torrent and downloads it. Is it different? One method might be illegal but is it different ethically? It boils down to, this guy has an Avril Lavigne song. And he didn't buy a CD to get it.


also, again, what about the guy making the mix tape for his girl friend? is that wrong? maybe... but does it matter? that is the big question. is it something anyone should have to give a second's thought too?

I spoke to a lawyer friend (U.S.) about this issue. He told me that as long as one didn't make money off of a music download then it is technically not illegal (ethically...decide for yourself). He said that the famous cases of teens getting jailed was when they had 3,000 songs downloaded, which "implied" that they were reselling them.

Though I don't illegally download stuff, I don't think that I would be bothered by torrenting something that was for my amusement. I DO KNOW that I would draw the line at something business-related.

And as far as copyright protection: there's a reason that I quit buying Autodesk products. If I don't like a company's approach to anti-piracy, I don't use their software.

CMT
09-17-2007, 01:31 PM
The dongle has been bothering me more and more. Lately I've been working on my laptop and my wife and kid uses it too. I have to keep putting it in and out and I can see eventually the port wearing out or even breaking due to some unforeseen accident.

I really like how Pixologic did it with ZBrush 3 (ZB2 was a different story). Install... launch.... and within the app you activate it over the internet... then you're in.

You can actually activate it on 2 machines, provided one's for work and one's for home use for the same person. But if you want to switch computers, you can easily deactivate it, install on another machine and reactivate it.

SBowie
09-17-2007, 01:39 PM
I spoke to a lawyer friend (U.S.) about this issue. He told me that as long as one didn't make money off of a music download then it is technically not illegal (ethically...decide for yourself).That may be the case. The honest way to find out would be to ask the entity that owns the rights whether they mind or not (they likely have a published policy somewhere or other.)

They may look at it that the musical piece is a commodity - a consumable performance. When you obtain it 'outside commercial channels' and consume it for free, you are not likely to purchase it are you? On the other hand, maybe they are just in the business of making people happy ... seems a tad unlikely as a general rule, though I'm sure there are exceptions.

Cougar12dk
09-17-2007, 01:41 PM
@CMT:

That's a good approach to it.

And since NT keeps records of our licenses, couldn't they do what Autodesk does? Give you a license that you use to activate the product over the internet (or phone).

SBowie
09-17-2007, 01:41 PM
Install... launch.... and within the app you activate it over the internet... then you're in.Seems reasonable, though I've seen some argue that you shouldn't need to be on the net to unlock. Doubtless they provide another mechanism for registration?

jin choung
09-17-2007, 01:57 PM
That wouldn't be a problem if users would treat software the same way, which they don't.


meh... chicken or the egg? there are enough abuses from the ip holders (many times legally confirmed and convicted) to suspect that even if there were no pirates, their greed would cause them to grasp for more than rightfully belongs to them.



And in this case highly illegal as well. You can can get into just soo much trouble with something like that...


oh please... yes. i'm sure the bit torrenters and hackers are trembling in their boots. besides, the attacks that i was describing was a suggestion for the ip holders to seed torrents and such with traps... as i say, all's fair.

jin

CMT
09-17-2007, 02:05 PM
meh... chicken or the egg? there are enough abuses from the ip holders (many times legally confirmed and convicted) to suspect that even if there were no pirates, their greed would cause them to grasp for more than rightfully belongs to them.

oh please... yes. i'm sure the bit torrenters and hackers are trembling in their boots. besides, the attacks that i was describing was a suggestion for the ip holders to seed torrents and such with traps... as i say, all's fair.

jin
Hehe. This is starting to get funny.

"All's fair"....Dontcha mean "Vengeance is mine! Arghhh!"

jin choung
09-17-2007, 02:06 PM
you really feel you are entitled to own the story itself just because you paid $5.99 for a book?

And don't you think companies are entitled to protect their property?

ugh... if you think that i am arguing that i own the story itself, you're not paying attention.

and clearly, you're not paying attention very closely, there are quite a few posts on the thread that talk specifically about draconian policies from ip holders that do infringe on a person's right to sell their property.

of course companies are entitled to protect their property. but very few do so without simultaneously infringing on the rights of users. at which point, THEY are the ones starting a war.

and who's getting worked up. i'm not even using that many caps. i'm saying all i'm saying under complete compsure.

jin

jin choung
09-17-2007, 02:07 PM
Hehe. This is starting to get funny.


it's just getting funny for you? this has been really really funny for me for quite some time now.

jin

SBowie
09-17-2007, 02:14 PM
of course companies are entitled to protect their property. but very few do so without simultaneously infringing on the rights of users.Then the 'user,' on reading over the draconian EULA, would be well within his rights to decline to enter into it*, and purchase an alternative. He is not within his rights to redefine the EULA after agreeing to it, on the basis of personal contempt.


*I'm aware that isolated instances of the user having to agree to the EULA without an opportunity to read it first have been reported. Such cases are indefensible, and - barring other issues - I can't imagine any court taking the developer's side should the user promptly decide he can't agree and ask permission to return the product.

CMT
09-17-2007, 02:16 PM
I'm paying very close attention. You just aren't being as clear as you should. Others here have thought the same thing.

And why is it a war? It's just an issue. That's all. You're making it into a war - Uploading system disabling software, endorsing piracy. C'mon.

Not all companies are as you suggest. You're lumping them all under one big "baddie" umbrella.


if they employ copy protection, they gotta be fing johnny on the spot and make sure that every legit customer gets his requisite codes and keys when he needs it.

(or with pc games, let the user play the fing game without the fing disk in the fing drive if it's totally 5fing gigs installed on the fing hard drive already)

in general, the software industry is fing this up big time.

Sounds like being "fing"worked up to me. Not very composed, IMO.

jin choung
09-17-2007, 02:24 PM
a) At least we're finally abandoning the flimsy pretense that piracy is altruistic because it benefits the downtrodden. Good.

actually, i don't believe i was ever saying that piracy is altruistic. at best, i was saying it was gray. is robin hood altruistic? arguably no.


b) I am not arguing for altruism, though it is a lovely quality. I'm not even arguing for honesty, because it will fall on deaf ears. I'm just very weary of bogus excuses ... at least we've eliminated one.

well, we've eliminated one that was never being made... but ok.

nobody ever lays down their arms and shakes hands. if cold war has taught us anything, the only thing that works is MAD. mutually assured destruction. as mentioned before, fighting fire with goodness and the boyscout way doesn't work.

so instead of turning the other cheek, i'm saying hey, if the game is rigged, then i say it's fair to come out from under the rules.

You're in dreamland, my friend. History makes the outcome of decadence abundantly clear. Gleefully throwing your skateboard onto the slippery slope does zilch to keep that outcome at bay. Peeling away the excuses, doing so actually condones and contributes to the downward rush - effectively saying "Me too, me too!" This same ethos, when circumstances permit, produces the selfish abuse of influence and power by big business and governments decried earlier. 'Everyone else cheats, so why not me.' As I said, it's just a question of scale.


you're the one in dreamland. NOTHING stops the downward spiral. but on the way down, it's more fun to step on than get stepped on.

I won't be part of it, or hypocritically blast the 'cheaters' while joining in and calling it egalitarianism.

celebrating a comeuppance is not hypocrisy.

and if nothing, i'm a complex fellow. i create ip too. and i have all my dongles lined up in a pristine little row, spit polished and shined when they're not in service in my trusty usb and parallel ports.

but as a spectator sport, nothing beats seeing the big guys get a black eye.

jin

p.s. awwww, thanks for the sentiment steve, regarding not wanting to come down too hard on me. that's nice of ya. but it's all good. i'm a big boy, can stand up for myself and i don't mind an intellectual scuffle. and as long as everybody keeps it on topic and non personal, i respond in kind and hash out the issue. no quarter asked. none need be given.

Phil
09-17-2007, 02:27 PM
The dongle has been bothering me more and more. Lately I've been working on my laptop and my wife and kid uses it too. I have to keep putting it in and out and I can see eventually the port wearing out or even breaking due to some unforeseen accident.

I really like how Pixologic did it with ZBrush 3 (ZB2 was a different story). Install... launch.... and within the app you activate it over the internet... then you're in.

You can actually activate it on 2 machines, provided one's for work and one's for home use for the same person. But if you want to switch computers, you can easily deactivate it, install on another machine and reactivate it.

See, I don't like this because you are at the developer's mercy again if your machine goes belly up. MacDrive 7 caused me serious inconvenience with regard to this because I had not realised that only one activation was permitted on a given serial number. Machine blows up, you reinstall and it goes into trial mode and you find you cannot activate. Forget to activate, because it's hardly something that you obsess about and a long weekend later and you can no longer access your damn drives because customer support has gone off fishing. *mutter*

People mentioned books. I'd like to find any book that you can buy where the vendor refuses to give you access as and when you wish. If I wanted to, I could format shift the book for my own personal use by dictating it into a device. I'd also like to think I could format shift it via OCR into a handheld device or laptop to keep my luggage weight down, if I wanted to. It's strange that you are denied this ability by music and movie folks who want to bend you over for a good seeing to at every opportunity.

Activation is very, very poor customer service.

I dislike the dongle too, because the risk is so great if it dies. You don't just lose LW temporarily, but all your plugins. If the vendor has vanished, you are completely screwed. I *hate* that risk.

SBowie
09-17-2007, 02:35 PM
you're the one in dreamland. NOTHING stops the downward spiral.That's what I said.

but on the way down, it's more fun to step on than get stepped on.Whereas I refuse to condone unscrupulous behavior by adopting it, and am quite comfortable knowing I don't have to defend my behavior.

Anyway, we've pretty clearly delineated our positions, and just as expected influenced exactly no-one. Peace and prosperity, man. :)

jin choung
09-17-2007, 02:43 PM
Sounds like being "fing"worked up to me. Not very composed, IMO.

haven't you ever seen a scorsese movie. it's punctuation, not heat.

and others either don't understand or are projecting a meaning in the absence of understanding.... read the posts. it's all in black and white.

jin

jin choung
09-17-2007, 02:50 PM
And why is it a war? It's just an issue. That's all. You're making it into a war - Uploading system disabling software, endorsing piracy. C'mon.

Not all companies are as you suggest. You're lumping them all under one big "baddie" umbrella.


semantics. ok, it's an "issue" where people are getting screwed.

as i said, piracy is gray to me, for many excellent reasons that i've stated several times in this thread...really eloquently if i might add. i "endorse" it as much as i "endorse" big companies trying to screw over the little guy.

but in absence of any hope of true reform (seriously, i don't believe in such things), i am pleased as punch that the big guy has a boogie man that makes him watch himself before he mess himself.

and i agree. not all companies are bad. and if it were up to me, those companies would not be touched... but you'll have to see the pirate don about that.

then again, not everbody pirates. so i guess it evens out.

jin

jin choung
09-17-2007, 02:59 PM
and while i do make ip, i personally don't have a whole lot at stake yet. but if i did, i'd like to think i'd be like this guy:

http://www.digg.com/music/Trent_Reznor_Steal_My_Music

and not like that dumsh!t lars from metallica. that guy's as rock and roll as bill gate's blue suit.

jin

vadermanchild
09-17-2007, 03:01 PM
haven't you ever seen a scorsese movie. it's punctuation, not heat.


jin

Ive not seen Punctuation...but I thought HEAT was a michael Mann flick.:thumbsup:

SBowie
09-17-2007, 03:02 PM
as i said, piracy is gray to me, for many excellent reasons that i've stated several times in this thread...really eloquently if i might add.Well yes, you've stated them several times. Your impression of whether they re a) excellent, 2) reasons, or 3) eloquently stated are of course subject to individual review. :)

CMT
09-17-2007, 03:28 PM
actually, i don't believe i was ever saying that piracy is altruistic. at best, i was saying it was gray. is robin hood altruistic? arguably no.

well, we've eliminated one that was never being made... but ok.

Actually, remember your "I can think past my own interest" and "piracy is a force for egalitarianism" statements?. Then you turn around and talk about stepping on the rights of others in the name of equality. So yeah... it's hypocritical.


nobody ever lays down their arms and shakes hands. if cold war has taught us anything, the only thing that works is MAD. mutually assured destruction. as mentioned before, fighting fire with goodness and the boyscout way doesn't work.
Ummmm... I totally disagree. And so does history.


haven't you ever seen a scorsese movie. it's punctuation, not heat.
I'm supposed to understand that your post?


and others either don't understand or are projecting a meaning in the absence of understanding.... read the posts. it's all in black and white.

In the context of the argument and your position, many of us have interpreted your posts the same. Maybe you should work on your wording?


as i said, piracy is gray to me, for many excellent reasons that i've stated several times in this thread...really eloquently if i might add.

Every reason of yours I've seen has been trivial. A mixed tape. A book. Inconsequential to the crux of the argument which has to do with mass distribution and use for profit.


i "endorse" it as much as i "endorse" big companies trying to screw over the little guy.

Wait a minute. You said you love the fact that those involved in piracy is "sticking it to the big guy" - even those mass users overseas who are doing it. To me that's endorsing it.

Lightwolf
09-17-2007, 04:42 PM
People mentioned books. I'd like to find any book that you can buy where the vendor refuses to give you access as and when you wish.

Try eBooks.


It's strange that you are denied this ability by music and movie folks who want to bend you over for a good seeing to at every opportunity.

You still can with those media as well, just as you can with books - but only if there is an analogue gap.
There problem with software: It was digital from the start, unlike all the other media we're discussing here. Which also means that all of a sudden the rules that were in place before the digital age have a new meaning - for both "sides".

I dislike the dongle too, because the risk is so great if it dies.
True, but compared to the alternatives it is still third best. Best would be no licensing whatsoever - and I truly believe that would impact vendors heavily, the second best is Luxs method I suppose (a software, non-locked key - but have a look at their forum right now as people realize that lux are now actually enforcing their licensing policy of only one license being active at any one time - oh the outrage, and it is still the most liberaly policy I'm aware of).
Then comes the dongle.
Anything software locked which requires you to get into touch with a vendor to work on another machine... *yeuch* ... and this is something that puts me off buying as well (here comes my vallet vote - the only exceptions being Adobe - since there isn't much choice - and SE because the deal was decent enough for LW owners).

Cheers,
Mike

jin choung
09-17-2007, 10:04 PM
Then you turn around and talk about stepping on the rights of others in the name of equality. So yeah... it's hypocritical.

it would be hypocritical if i condemned the fleecing of the public and i then went and fleeced the public or endorsed that idea.

remember, i entertain no notion of reform or appealed, "everybody just doing the right thing". ain't gonna happen bub. i make no appeals to morality on any side. i'm describing the fact that everybody is fd up unless they have a selfinterested reason not to be fd up.

so if cheaters, keep cheaters in check, in the lack of the possibility of any true justice, yah, poetic justice will have to do.

everybody (sorry, "MOST") works strenuously for their own best interest. trust and appeals to morality should not enter into the equation... at least it does not in practice.

AGAIN - this is why all the branches of government are arranged in a MEXICAN STAND OFF (see the connection here with M.A.D.?).

just selfish agents keeping in check the interest of other selfish agents.

Ummmm... I totally disagree. And so does history.

ummmmm... yes you do. no it does not. i don't know what history books you're reading but mine are full of the ignominy of men.

I'm supposed to understand that your post?

no. some do... and i've been inclined to punctuate in a like manner in the past. but no biggie. i'm informing you now - it's punctuation, not heat. at most a snide streak of belligerence. but i'm copascetic.

In the context of the argument and your position, many of us have interpreted your posts the same. Maybe you should work on your wording?

there was a jump to a conclusion by one individual... perhaps to be clever... you followed suit. if anything, some of my statements were open to interpretation because i was being glib. if people assume rather than asking for a clarification, that's not my problem.

Every reason of yours I've seen has been trivial. A mixed tape. A book. Inconsequential to the crux of the argument which has to do with mass distribution and use for profit.

your opinion. and you've your right to have it. as i've my right to have mine. you say inconsequential... fine but in my eyes, you are not thinking through the connections. you refuse to think things through to logical conclusions. fine. that is your inalienable right. but i reject your evaluation of the issue as conventional and simplistic.

any time something is painted as pure black or white in this world, you've got good reason to hold it suspect. there are few (if not no) issues of any consequence that are pure black or pure white.

Wait a minute. You said you love the fact that those involved in piracy is "sticking it to the big guy" - even those mass users overseas who are doing it. To me that's endorsing it.

yes, i celebrate all those things as a fan would celebrate the winning of his team. i guess i'm splitting hairs - i don't go and tell people to pirate or say that it is essentially right. remember, i'm mr. gray.

jin

jin choung
09-17-2007, 10:05 PM
Try eBooks.


yes, and oh do they win the fondness of our hearts by being so....

jin

jin choung
09-17-2007, 10:07 PM
True, but compared to the alternatives it is still third best. Best would be no licensing whatsoever - and I truly believe that would impact vendors heavily, the second best is Luxs method I suppose (a software, non-locked key - but have a look at their forum right now as people realize that lux are now actually enforcing their licensing policy of only one license being active at any one time - oh the outrage, and it is still the most liberaly policy I'm aware of.


i hereby expand your awareness:

pixologic allows two machines to be active at once...

not something i would wave flags for but still better than lux....

jin

riki
09-17-2007, 11:15 PM
i hereby expand your awareness:
jin

Morality is is a delusion, there's no such thing as free will, every non-extinct organism is hardwired to serve it's own interest.

How's that :)

vadermanchild
09-17-2007, 11:48 PM
This thread could have been a serious discussion - It was nice to vent about Newteks dongle policy on here - hoping that perhaps someone of some importance might at least hear the point of view that customers are having issues.

Instead its turned into a bizzarro thread comparing piracy to theft (NO FNG KIDDING!!!!) and then post after post of random words.

All I can say is ....

WAVE YOUR FLAG, THEFT IS KING BUT THE KING IS TALLER THAN US ALL, THE POOR GO HUNGRY WHILE THE HUNGRY CANT AFFORD MORE RAM FOR THEIR MAC BOOK PRO - THE WORLD LAST LONG.

Man....What a crapfest.

jin choung
09-18-2007, 12:02 AM
duly noted. next.

jin

riki
09-18-2007, 12:19 AM
I don't think the hungry have Mac Books, I think it's just dirt and stuff.

Phil
09-18-2007, 01:30 AM
Try eBooks.

As distinct from proper books, and as such I never have been interested in them. Regular PDFs are as close as I come and I have never had one restricted, except in the workplace.


You still can with those media as well, just as you can with books - but only if there is an analogue gap.

Which goes away with the high def formats as far as I am aware. Interestingly, I have no interest in those formats until it is completely easy to wander in to a store, pick various bits off the rack and hook them together without fuss. Additionally, I want to be able to rip the movies to have them on a fileserver, like I do with all my DVDs to date. Additionally, regional encoding of DVDs is purely to enable price fixing in defined markets.

I don't buy any CDs these days because of the risk of malware, import glitches, etc. iTunes works because it doesn't treat customers like criminals, had weak DRM sufficient to appease most diehards, and now has options for some content to come with no DRM at all. It's been successful and it is amazing to see the likes of NBC and Universal walking away from it for a smaller market with tighter DRM (PlaysForSure - only supported on Windows and not supported by any iPod). Control wins over profits, it seems.


There problem with software: It was digital from the start, unlike all the other media we're discussing here. Which also means that all of a sudden the rules that were in place before the digital age have a new meaning - for both "sides".

The vendor tends to win, if they want, because they can lock up your data in proprietary formats and hold it to ransom. They can force you to upgrade by denying activation of an old version (see AutoDesk and MotionBuilder). They can block your use of the software by default when reactivating against an existing serial number, possibly hoping that, if you're in a hurry, you might just pay for another license (profit!) to avoid delays. Vendors can now also deny the resale of their software if they wish, or charge a fee to permit same.

Poor old customer gets targetted for finding workarounds, included in piracy statistics and/or left out of pocket. Inconvenience and expense is all on the customer's side - no impact on the vendor at all, with the vendor often wrapping themselves so thoroughly in disclaimers that no action can be taken for failure to deliver. No wonder people are becoming fairly disposed to circumventing these restrictions.

It's a common example that cracked software simply works most of the time, leaving the pirates with a better product than the legit customers. No activation, no restrictions, no downtime.


True, but compared to the alternatives it is still third best. Best would be no licensing whatsoever - and I truly believe that would impact vendors heavily, the second best is Luxs method I suppose (a software, non-locked key - but have a look at their forum right now as people realize that lux are now actually enforcing their licensing policy of only one license being active at any one time - oh the outrage, and it is still the most liberaly policy I'm aware of).
Then comes the dongle.
Anything software locked which requires you to get into touch with a vendor to work on another machine... *yeuch* ... and this is something that puts me off buying as well (here comes my vallet vote - the only exceptions being Adobe - since there isn't much choice - and SE because the deal was decent enough for LW owners).

Cheers,
Mike

It would be nice to believe that vendors would not be impacted, but on the evidence of cracks and/or keygens for iDof and exrTrader, that argument really doesn't stand. Shame, really. At that point, I start not really having a specific preference any more. I would like to have a simple dongle rather than the relatively fragile version we have now (flexlm with a USB ethernet dongle, for example, makes for a portable software/hardware combination that is reliable, and doesn't steal a USB port for no real purpose), but realise that this makes it very difficult to know when you are being cheated.

I don't really have a solution (beyond constantly petitioning developers to avoid activation schemes). I just know what I don't like. If I have to use activation-based software, I will hunt down mechanisms to defeat it, though. That's a given and, I believe, reasonable course of action.

As for Modo, I had a quick rummage in their forums and I don't see much of an outcry, except from a couple of folks who found they could not run 301 on another machine when one machine was (controlling) rendering. I find that to be overly restrictive and would complain, but that's because I'm awkward.

OT: Based on the comments there, it seems like Lux took the same approach that they adopted with LW - jam up the host application to run a task that should come from a dedicated app (like BNR3). Good to see them learning lessons, eh?

Lightwolf
09-18-2007, 01:48 AM
i hereby expand your awareness:

pixologic allows two machines to be active at once...

not something i would wave flags for but still better than lux....

So does Adobe.
But in either case I can't install on a third machine without their consent - which is a lot worse than either unplugging a dongle or copying a license file over.
Or does Pixologic include a full service local license manager?
Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
09-18-2007, 01:57 AM
As for Modo, I had a quick rummage in their forums and I don't see much of an outcry, except from a couple of folks who found they could not run 301 on another machine when one machine was (controlling) rendering. I find that to be overly restrictive and would complain, but that's because I'm awkward.

Actually, a lot of them complain because they just used to run modo twice on two machines at the same time... two projects at the same time, tweaking one while rendering on the other box and vice versa, switching all the time.
But still they were using it beyond their license.... it just wasn't checked.
(And BNR plus another app will allow running modo as a render only solution without tying up a license, but that doesn't satisfy some).

I agree with you on the other bits, HD content is a no-go for me at the moment, I dont buy protected CDs and don't support any on-line distribution of Music (sorry, but except for higher priced content on iTunes which is rare, it doesn't cut it for me either).

Cheers,
Mike

Phil
09-18-2007, 03:05 AM
You don't like protected content yourself, yet you lock your own software to a fail prone device like a dongle.

Interesting :)

As noted, without this, what's to stop people sharing one copy. Based on cracks and keygens for all manner of $5 or $10 shareware, not just $30 LW plugins, this would happen.

I can understand why developers feel that the protection is warranted - the numbers and ease of copying work against them (as well as human nature). What I cannot find is a system with which I feel comfortable - something that works for both developer and user. The very nature of these systems is to lock out unauthorised users. Failsafing to 'go away' is the fundamental principle of the system, sadly. Otherwise you could simply disconnect your machine from the router when running such software.

The dongle merely replaces the activation service in this context. It is, though, much more difficult to physically lose an activation server in a datacentre somewhere. The dongle is in most cases much more vulnerable to being lost/stolen/damaged.

Lightwolf
09-18-2007, 03:41 AM
You don't like protected content yourself, yet you lock your own software to a fail prone device like a dongle.

Interesting :)

Easy... this is still a niche market. If I sold millions of copies of my IP I might think otherwise, but this isn't the case (and won't be unless I stop developing for the 3D market).
And considering that this is a niche market, the dongle is still one of the most user friendly solutions.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
09-18-2007, 03:42 AM
If people are willing to illegally share one legally bought single user software license, they're also willing to spend 2 minutes downloading a keygen or a crack to share the goodness.
Not necessarily. Especially since the later is a crime in most countries now, the former just a breach of the license agreement ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Phil
09-18-2007, 04:05 AM
Is a breach of license agreement not a crime? I thought that was the legal glue that holds those things together in the first place. If a breach of license agreement is not a crime in itself what do those agreements constitute?

No. It's a civil matter, not a criminal matter. Contracts are broken all the time - the legal issues are sorted out under civil courts, not criminal courts.


So buying one license legally and distributing it to a hundred friends is not a crime, but if you supply them with a keygen it is?

This is different to a breach of contract. You are now distributing material without permission. The only reference I could find on a quick search was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement#Legality

How accurate this is, I cannot tell. It's wikipedia and so comes with the usual cautions.

Lightwolf
09-18-2007, 04:07 AM
Is a breach of license agreement not a crime? I thought that was the legal glue that holds those things together in the first place. If a breach of license agreement is not a crime in itself what do those agreements constitute?
A license agreement may contain parts that are not covered by law but that still means that both parties accepted those parts by acknowledging the agreement.
Of course this is different from country to country. I.e. here in Germany a lot of rules are the law, which makes license agreements (which are a contract basically) slimmer than in other countries like the US.

So buying one license legally and distributing it to a hundred friends is not a crime, but if you supply them with a keygen it is?
Both are a crime in this case (look at your initial example)

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
09-18-2007, 04:10 AM
If I give my (single user) registration name and the keycode to any number of friends, I'm violating the license agreement and not breaking the law?
If you don't charge for it then you're just in breach of contract.


But if I just give them the installer and a keygen, it's a crime?
Even only the KeyGen is. As is distributing a tool to overcome the DVD copy protection for example. Most of this laws came to pass about 4-5 years ago in most countries, the DMCA in the US being the best known.

Hey, hardly anybody complained back then...

Cheers,
Mike

Phil
09-18-2007, 04:15 AM
Let's use WinZip as an example. It's not protected by anything but a simple license.

If I give my (single user) registration name and the keycode to any number of friends, I'm violating the license agreement and not breaking the law?

The details are awkward. If you breach a contract between yourself and other people, it is a civil matter. Depending on how you breach the contract, though, you can commit a criminal offence.

So...you can breach the contract by hacking the software yourself (if this is not permitted), and this would be a civil matter. Reselling software that you are not permitted to is also likely a civil offence (e.g. AutoDesk software)

By distributing software without permission, you commit a criminal offence due to copyright infringement.


But if I just give them the installer and a keygen, it's a crime?

Or none of them are criminal matters and just civil court matters?

This is interesting. Keycodes are usually deemed to be restricted material by some manner within the license agreement, such that distributing them is a breach of copyright in some way.

If you are permitted to redistribute the installer and the keygen has no restrictions on distribution, I wonder what that does for the situation. I don't believe copyright prosecution then applies and you are not breaching any contract. The DMCA might well apply due to the distribution of a reverse engineered trade secret (within the keygen) and perhaps this might also extend to the algorithm. *puzzled*

SBowie
09-18-2007, 05:24 AM
You don't like protected content yourself, yet you lock your own software to a fail prone device like a dongle.I'd be happy enough for dongles to go away, but I have to question the validity of that last bit. I think the risk may be more imaginary than real.

I deal with a lot more dongles than most people here do, and have only seen quite rare instances of physical damage (snapping them off with a knee, for instance) or simple loss. I've never seen one just fail to work, or be fried. And dongle swap policies are generally quite prompt.

I'm sure that 'stuff happens' sometimes, but how many here have actually had this happen, and how long did you wait for replacement?

Phil
09-18-2007, 05:31 AM
I'd be happy enough for dongles to go away, but I have to question the validity of that last bit. I think the risk may be more imaginary than real.

I deal with a lot more dongles than most people here do, and have only seen quite rare instances of physical damage (snapping them off with a knee, for instance) or simple loss. I've never seen one just fail to work, or be fried. And dongle swap policies are generally quite prompt.

I'm sure that 'stuff happens' sometimes, but how many here have actually had this happen, and how long did you wait for replacement?

The parallel port ones are particularly prone. I lost at least one over the years, had to pay 50 pounds for the replacement (cheeky!) was out of action for a week (bloody annoying!) and had to argue with several plugin vendors because NewTek customer service failed to respond (frustrating beyond belief!).

Given the expiration of a number of plugin vendors in recent times, getting plugins revived now could be very difficult indeed. I really don't look forward to the day that the dongle dies. It's been 6 years so far so it feels like that day is coming.

Steamthrower
09-18-2007, 05:38 AM
I don't think the hungry have Mac Books, I think it's just dirt and stuff.

And centipedes, you forgot centipedes.


THE POOR GO HUNGRY WHILE THE HUNGRY CANT AFFORD MORE RAM FOR THEIR MAC BOOK PRO - THE WORLD LAST LONG.

Just because some people grovel about in squalor doesn't mean the rest of us should take a vow of poverty. I mean, it's good to help and all but you don't exactly live in a mud hut, do you?


Man....What a crapfest.

Well, I'd say that this discussion had somewhat transcended what you're looking at. We've begun a philosophical and idealogical debate here. That's somewhat more important than dongles.

Matt
09-18-2007, 05:46 AM
Oh yeah baby!

SBowie
09-18-2007, 05:50 AM
It's been 6 years so far so it feels like that day is coming.Something to consider -- I don't know about the par port ones, but dongle backup services are not too hard to find, and as some of them operate quite openly I'm under the impression that - while doubtless unpopular with some developers - they may well be legal in at least some jurisdictions.

SBowie
09-18-2007, 07:08 AM
If you're starting to backup/clone your dongle, you might as well download those "fixed" versions of Layout.exe and Modeler.exe that magically don't require it to begin with and store them in a safe place for emergency use. Not the same thing at all if one practice is legal and the other is not. I suspect the risk of catastrophic dongle failure is statistically very small, but perhaps for those with numerous plugin products registered to a specific dongle may make looking into a backup sensible if/when such is permitted in the jurisdiction.

art
09-18-2007, 09:12 AM
I keep my dongle in a safe place :)