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View Full Version : xsi has a smart strategy.... newtek should pay attention



jin choung
08-29-2007, 01:33 AM
http://www.cgchannel.com/news/viewfeature.jsp?newsid=6330

brilliant. a few things to note:

1. softimage is accepting its notnumber1 status and playing the hand it's dealt. it is working well with other established pipelines and is being branded as such. smart.

2. check out that skin weighting system!!! OMFG!!!

!!!

seriously. how awesome is that? user definable colors for weight regions. colors being reflected in the verts... !!!

3. can almost use xsi as an inbetween between max and maya.

anyhoo, thought this was a smart strategy on their part.

jin

BazC
08-29-2007, 01:44 AM
Amazing, absolutely amazing!

Iain
08-29-2007, 02:03 AM
So on top of everything that Newtek is trying to do, they should quickly incorporate every cool feature and marketing technique that every other manufacturer develops.
Is that what you're saying?

Sensei
08-29-2007, 02:19 AM
2. check out that skin weighting system!!! OMFG!!!

!!!

seriously. how awesome is that?

You know it's doable for 3rd party developers even without hacks, as long as it's done in Layout (Modeler's SDK does not give option to draw colorful things)..

zapper1998
08-29-2007, 02:24 AM
hmmmmm interesting yes....

hmmm

pooby
08-29-2007, 02:28 AM
I think the general concept of LW playing well with other packages is a very wise path to follow.. It seems somewhat isolated at the moment.
The easier Newtek make it to bring stuff into LW for rendering the better.

vadermanchild
08-29-2007, 02:34 AM
So on top of everything that Newtek is trying to do, they should quickly incorporate every cool feature and marketing technique that every other manufacturer develops.
Is that what you're saying?

Newtek neeed to be very aware of what others are doing.

I think the point is as Newtek tries to catch up to where people are now - everyone is streaking ahead .

LW will always be the very poor second. Newtek wont ever really offer PRO tools at the level of others

Everyone congratulates Newtek on their point release pricing and pricing overall somehow putting out their mind the misery Newteks sloppy releases cause and the fact is most of the time they DARE N O T charge for the point upgrade cause of what it breaks or what it doesnt deliver.

Im still waiting to really know where LW is heading - so far they are still too close to the abyss to call.

jin choung
08-29-2007, 02:37 AM
So on top of everything that Newtek is trying to do, they should quickly incorporate every cool feature and marketing technique that every other manufacturer develops.
Is that what you're saying?

no.

i am saying that they should be aware of what others are doing. and make sure that what they are doing is smart and wise.

if you're hellbent on getting on a ship when even the rats are leaping off it, shouldn't you think about maybe reconsidering? i'm saying it pays to pay attention. that is all.

if they have their heads in the sand doing whatever it is they are doing and they don't pull it out and REALLY SEE what others are doing, they risk being marginalized.

jin

jin choung
08-29-2007, 02:44 AM
oh, as for pooby's sentiment about lw playing well with others... ABSO-FING-LUTELY.

acknowledge that we aren't number one and, like xsi, figure out how to get a foot in.

if newtek's focus right now is rendering (which it appears to be), they should be hellbent on trying to find an easy way to get max, maya, xsi, etc. into lw.

mdd goes a long way towards providing interoperability. they should develop that and add that as a built in selling point. xsi didn't leave it to others to make plugins that may or may not work... they made an inbuilt system that they can peddle.

jin

greent
08-29-2007, 03:00 AM
one more crucial detail puts xsi ahead of lightwave and newtek. softimage is a financially alot stronger company and therefore have more human resources to involve into development.

jin choung
08-29-2007, 03:20 AM
yep... that's true and always a good point.

so whenever the reason that something can't be done is cash, the argument ends there.

but here's hoping that some things can be addressed with a good plan and a clear vision.

jin

Elmar Moelzer
08-29-2007, 03:26 AM
Well, one thing I noticed is that the UV- info did not really convert back to MAX that well (I saw some holes in the texture on the face and neck).
Otherwise it looks like some neat stuff.
I do hope that some 3rd parties will maybe make use of the new SDK- features in Layout and implement some of this into LW.
I really like the fact that you can paint Vertexmaps like this on the animated mesh. Makes a lot of sense.
CU
Elmar

Matt
08-29-2007, 04:45 AM
Dunno why, but I always feel LightWave is like the Amiga in the world of 3D! With 3DSMax being the PC, and the Mac being the rest!

Iain
08-29-2007, 05:05 AM
As we all know Newtek are playing a big game of catch up at the moment and for some of us more than others, recent improvements are at least sufficient and a positive indicator for the future.
To say at this point in time "yes but what about what they are doing over at Luxology (or wherever)-can we have that too?" is just expecting a bit much imo.

hrgiger
08-29-2007, 06:31 AM
...and the Mac being the rest!

Not true...I'd actually use XSI.

cresshead
08-29-2007, 07:08 AM
lw really needs a good robust set of import and export features.



and that needs to be in layout not modeler....:thumbsup:

cresshead
08-29-2007, 07:21 AM
Well, one thing I noticed is that the UV- info did not really convert back to MAX that well (I saw some holes in the texture on the face and neck).

Elmar

actually that's bipeds head bone poking thru the mesh...3dsmax has poly object based bones [well anything based really..even lights if you want!]

so uv's are intact..no holes.:thumbsup:

cresshead
08-29-2007, 07:28 AM
i'll add this little gem...newtek arn't stupid..they already have split the renderer off and have it in development as a plugin for photoshop extended

soo....why not make it a plugin renderer for all 3d apps, just like vray, final render, brazil etc....
make it for 3dsmax, maya, cinema4d and xsi so they can PLUGIN lightwave's renderer into their app along with the 999 free render nodes...would be cool and bring in a stack of cash for lightwave development.

now that would be a smart move..better than adding a built in point oven plugin with lightwave imo.

users would get the new render tools, hypervoxels...nice lights...nodal materials...999 render nodes for free!
of course it's just my opinion!...no need to shoot me for bringing it up!

dballesg
08-29-2007, 07:46 AM
i'll add this little gem...newtek arn't stupid..they already have split the renderer off and have it in development as a plugin for photoshop extended

soo....why not make it a plugin renderer for all 3d apps, just like vray, final render, brazil etc....
make it for 3dsmax, maya, cinema4d and xsi so they can PLUGIN lightwave's renderer into their app along with the 999 free render nodes...would be cool and bring in a stack of cash for lightwave development.

now that would be a smart move..better than adding a built in point oven plugin with lightwave imo.

users would get the new render tools, hypervoxels...nice lights...nodal materials...999 render nodes for free!
of course it's just my opinion!...no need to shoot me for bringing it up!


I was thinking exactly the same after learn how much a render node license of Mental Ray costs! :)

In fact, they can do that and provide with the renderer on those apps to actual LW users at a good price! :)

I can see a good quantity of money on it! :)

David

greent
08-29-2007, 07:48 AM
i dont consider luxology to be the real competitor now. to me its softimage

houdini is soon to become serious threat. in good mean of the word :-)

Yog
08-29-2007, 08:12 AM
Softimage have been following this policy for a few years now. They lost a lot of ground to Maya when XSI's development was stalled for a few years as Softimage was sold by Microsoft, that and the first couple versions were limited and not that stable. When they did finally settle themselves and produce a really nice product (around XSI-3.5), they found studios were reluctant to pick it up as many had already set themselves up around Maya or MAX. It's the old story, when you play catch-up, it's not enough to be as good as the established leaders, you have to be significantly better to induce a studio to consider changing.
The strategy has been to market themselves as an additional tool that can be used alongside existing pipelines, and with the various Mod-Tools and Foundation versions, encourage people to at least try XSI, of which more than a few have found they liked what they saw.


i dont consider luxology to be the real competitor now. to me its softimage Beware of complacency. Luxology have followed a very similar course in positioning themselves as an additional tool to work with others, whilst quietly developing into a fully fledged all around program. They are a long way from being completely standalone as a general 3D system, but they seem to be moving with very firm footing.

When I started with Lightwave, it's main strength was that it did the basics very well and very simply. These days the basics have slipped, to be replaced by gimmicky functions that are often little more than eye candy, and the simplicity has also greatly suffered as more and more is "bolted on". Honestly, how many different types of cameras or AA algorithms does a single program need ? I wont get into how fractured modeling now is.
IMHO Newtek need to get back to the basics. Do the basics well, and with a decent set of export options Lightwave will be a lot more marketable.

greent
08-29-2007, 08:16 AM
Do the basics well, and with a decent set of export options Lightwave will be a lot more marketable.

damn right! lw doesn't export even .obj's correctly.

jasonwestmas
08-29-2007, 08:33 AM
Make lightwave a 3rd party renderer. . .oh wait, they already did! Okay, so then it would be smart to improve upon that base and I would agree that enabling objects from outside apps to be imported into lightwave would be the way to go. Lightwave rendering is more than affordable and there isn't much competition for an affordable renderer that can do what LW can do in this reguard. Of course you all know this already.

Yog
08-29-2007, 08:39 AM
one more crucial detail puts xsi ahead of lightwave and newtek. softimage is a financially alot stronger company and therefore have more human resources to involve into development.The counter point to this is that when I started using Lightwave, it's UK to dollar equivalent price was $2000, which later rose to around the equivalent of $3000. It now sells for $895, or more realistically $495 if you have a compatible side-grade product (and considering the list of compatible products, this is HIGHLY likely). So how much less development is now going into Lightwave, considering the cost of living has just about doubled in that same time ?

So is Lightwave too cheep ?

Well if you want to have a complete clear out of all the many multiple redundancies that the recent bolt-on culture has provided and then overhaul the animation and modelling tools, and then compete with the likes of MAX, Maya and increasingly XSI, I would say yes.

cresshead
08-29-2007, 08:50 AM
fast forward machine set to 1st qtr 2008...newtek release lightwave renderer plugin for maya, max and xsi.....

this could be as simple as selling layout only bundled with point oven [in a deal with the pointoven developer] ...you can already load obj's into layout btw.

they now have a foothold with 3 of the industries leading apps and their userbase..esp xsi leaveraging upon the past lw's now using maya or xsi
but paying for the restrictive liecences.

here's the selling points for each app....

for xsi you gain 999 render nodes for free and a simple to set up renderer
that spits out great looking images.

same for maya...

for max...they'd gain a nodal material editor [max has no node based materials]...they alreay have unlimited nodes for mental ray and scanline.

a renderer plugin would be prefereable...but quite unusual!...a competitor
app plugged into another 3d app...Hmm weird!
..a stripped lightwave with just 'layout' could do the trick if point oven was
bundled in...and some great videos showing you how you use the connection and the nodal materials/lights/renderer....quite a compelling product really
for max, xsi and maya users...

....then using our fast forward machine we go to aug 2008....siggraph...
release of lightwave 9.852....the new rigging tools and modeler enhancements
...plus a deal to upgrade to full lightwave for the 'lightwave renderer' users.

...:D

vadermanchild
08-29-2007, 09:02 AM
Cressehead what you suggest must be abtter idea than Newteks current strategy of Lightwave renderer for photoshop.

I mean how low end can they stoop?

Yog
08-29-2007, 09:04 AM
fast forward machine set to 1st qtr 2008...newtek release lightwave renderer plugin for maya, max and xsi...What price would you sell it for ?
Bearing in mind that users of these other products can already buy the full version of LW for $495, you couldn't really charge more than $250.

Factor in the licencing price of Point Oven, the base level cost of the dongle (or newly written software protection), the specially written manuals for each version, the new packaging and advertising needed, and your going to be very lucky not to make a loss, as well as diverting scant resources from the main application.

I would probably be a bit more upbeat apart from the history of Inspire, and the still absent Inspire 2.

Lightwolf
08-29-2007, 09:06 AM
Cressehead what you suggest must be abtter idea than Newteks current strategy of Lightwave renderer for photoshop.

I mean how low end can they stoop?
If you compare market share... and the work involved... then the PS renderer could be a gold mine for NT.
On the other hand, satisfying users of other 3D apps with your renderer is hard, the market is smaller, more competition and, let's not forget, those users will demand new features and upgrades as well... not all of which would make it back to LW (mainly the r&d going into developing a decent way to bridge from the app into the LW renderer).

Cheers,
Mike

jasonwestmas
08-29-2007, 09:07 AM
Um yeah, something along those lines CressHead, of course just buying the whole version of lightwave is affordable. :) I agree all the tools for rendering in lightwave is available, one just needs these tools to work together seamlessly with LW which is what softimage is doing.

dballesg
08-29-2007, 09:22 AM
Um yeah, something along those lines CressHead, of course just buying the whole version of lightwave is affordable. :) I agree all the tools for rendering in lightwave is available, one just needs these tools to work together seamlessly with LW which is what softimage is doing.

But they are doing it with Maya and Max, there is not Crosswalk for LW! :(

Yog
08-29-2007, 09:40 AM
But they are doing it with Maya and Max, there is not Crosswalk for LW! :(No, but there is a built in version of Point Oven that supports Lightwave, including the creation of LWO and LWS.

GandB
08-29-2007, 12:09 PM
houdini is soon to become serious threat.
Not if they still have the same horrid interface (and large pricetag).

jasonwestmas
08-29-2007, 12:15 PM
Gator is nice but really like I said you can use xsi's version of point oven to get all deformations over to lightwave and you can use obj to get meshes with UVs in LW as well. It's more indirect but not exactly a complicated process for the experienced user.

greent
08-29-2007, 12:16 PM
Not if they still have the same horrid interface (and large pricetag).

well, interface is going to change :-)

link1 (http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=855&Itemid=166) | link2 (http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=766&Itemid=241)

cresshead
08-29-2007, 04:45 PM
What price would you sell it for ?
Bearing in mind that users of these other products can already buy the full version of LW for $495, you couldn't really charge more than $250.

Factor in the licencing price of Point Oven, the base level cost of the dongle (or newly written software protection), the specially written manuals for each version, the new packaging and advertising needed, and your going to be very lucky not to make a loss, as well as diverting scant resources from the main application.

I would probably be a bit more upbeat apart from the history of Inspire, and the still absent Inspire 2.

well run with this idea....

cost of point oven would not be $99,...that pricing scheme is for a single user not volume and pointoven version would be built into lightwave not the separate plugin ideally so it owuld be ''different'' and cost just a percentage.

cost of dongle..would be ZERO...newtek would use the speed edit liecencing scheme.

packaging would be ZERO downloadable only...:thumbsup:

adverts would run on their site an alongside the advertising they have planned for photoshop...not going to break the bank is it?
and note newtek already have a curtdown version of lightwave based on 7.5 so would just extend their app line up.

or...they could also add in fprime into the mix and work with worley on a bundle deal specific to just a renderer for all 3d apps.

i see this glass as half full not half empty!

jin choung
08-29-2007, 07:02 PM
i SEVERELY disagree with the idea of a "PRO" package.

i HATE that. i hate that packages are parceled out into "complete" "pro" "ultimate" etc flavors....

with an overpriced stripped to the bone "LITE" or "NORMAL" version? ugh... noooooo thank you.

this kinda thing is not good for the consumer and un-consumer friendly companies already do it... i for one want newtek to stay consumer friendly. as been said elsewhere, please oh please, let us not start begging to start PAYING like other apps too!

at that point, why not just switch?

jin

prospector
08-29-2007, 07:36 PM
:agree:
The low end ver of LW (at 495) should have the same stuff in it as is the high end ver of LW (at 495).

cresshead
08-29-2007, 08:12 PM
arr hmm!....we already have 2 flavours of lightwave soon to be 3 with the photoshop plugin... remember so there's no KEEPING is 1 product only!
lightwave
lightwave for video [7.5 plus logo plugins and scenes]
lightwave plugin renderer for phtotshop
...VT?...dos that still ship with LW inbuilt???...we may have 4 products based on lw currently then!

my proposal is not for a lightwave 'lite' but a 'lightwave renderer plugin'
the plugin woudl not be ''all'' of lightwave...just the renderer

are you getting this?? [chuck?]:thumbsup:

RedBull
08-29-2007, 08:44 PM
Not if they still have the same horrid interface (and large pricetag).

Price tag is high, but not for the abilities that Houdini has inbuilt....
The interface has been overhauled in H9 and the feature set is great...
(it's now in release candidate)

The fact that you can use the Houdini Apprentice version, and output fluid and cloth simulation to object sequences in Lightwave... Means another free fluid and cloth solver that can be integrated to LW for no cost at all...

And you don't have to shell out like Rainmaker and R&H who use Houdini Master often alongside LW.

Houdini natively supports .lwo and has camera and motion loaders from LW.
(H9 currently doesn't export to .lwo, only .obj but they will update there .lwo exporter for me shortly)

cresshead
08-29-2007, 11:44 PM
abit like when newtek bundled vue infinate or fusion plus...

btw Vue is amazing!...best freeby application i have ever had...so thank you VERY much newtek!

jin choung
08-30-2007, 12:00 AM
hey chunder,

well, i have less of a problem with that notion but i'm still not exactly comfortable with it. perhaps the semantics of it sticks in my craw but i'd have less problem with newtek simply having different "package deals"....
the whole "pro" thing seem to be begging for something we really don't want.

jin

Iain
08-30-2007, 02:03 AM
The fact that you can use the Houdini Apprentice version, and output fluid and cloth simulation to object sequences in Lightwave... Means another free fluid and cloth solver that can be integrated to LW for no cost at all...


I didn't know you could do that with Apprentice. I'll need to get an up to date copy. Houdini is amazing if maybe a bit complex for yer average LW'er. We like things simple ;D

archijam
08-30-2007, 02:14 AM
pro = lw with a bunch of bundled plugins chosen from a list, normal is not some stripped down lw

:agree: .. the packaging of the different 'options' of the adobe suite, depending on what apps (plugins) you need is a great strategy, enabling the customer to feel like they didn't pay for things they don't want ..

j.

jin choung
08-30-2007, 03:00 AM
see i don't think that adobe is a good model. they are really really good at wringing people for every last drop in their wallet.

and the danger of having package deals at all is that newtek ends up getting lazy and just deferring features to 3rd parties who will make plugins that can be included in the "package deal".

but then newtek never incorporates their own, integrated solution (*cough* SASLITE *cough*) and we end up having to purchase the package "deals" out of NECESSITY instead of luxury (*cough* CHARACTER STUDIO *cough*)....

ugh... one of the reasons that i hated hated HATED max was that basically it required you to have CS to do animation.

and that is a model of conduct and business that i never want to see newtek engage in.

jin

StereoMike
08-30-2007, 03:17 AM
Cressehead what you suggest must be abtter idea than Newteks current strategy of Lightwave renderer for photoshop.

I mean how low end can they stoop?

It's a hard fight out there. SI gives the Modtool away for _free_! How low is that? Take a look at it. It's simply the best free tool outhere.

mike

[edit] dang, haven't seen there's two pages of replies after the one I answered.

jin choung
08-30-2007, 03:35 AM
hmmm? what is this modtool? is it a standalone app?

jin

Sil3
08-30-2007, 03:43 AM
jin choung:

Have you been living on the moon? hehehehe

Go to softimage website and download it for Free, its basicallt a Maya PLE but without watermarks, and MRay only functions to bake textures at maximum 512*512, you can also export .objs with maximum 64k triangles.

It was made for Gamers so they can Mod into their games, but since Point Oven is included with the Mod tool you can (but you shouldnt) use it as a Character Animation and HardBodie/SoftBodie Dynamics tool.

So basically it a GREAT GREAT way to test drive Xsi to really see it complimensts LW very very well in CA and Dynamics simulations, then go get a license :D

Sil3
08-30-2007, 03:49 AM
SI gives the Modtool away for _free_! How low is that? Take a look at it.



Well i find it as Low as NT bundling software that they didnt make to atract new users, its called marketing, at least Soft is doing it with its OWN products ;)

GandB
08-30-2007, 06:12 AM
I'll have to have another look at Houdini then, as it's been awhile.

cresshead
08-30-2007, 07:22 AM
3dbuzz are now sponsored by houdini so there's going to be a shed load of video based training from 3dbuzz for the big 'H' soon.

StereoMike
08-30-2007, 07:58 AM
Yeah Houdini 9 apprentice is free also and has a fluid solver I heard? I dl'ed it today, have yet to testdrive it.

As for SI being low releasing the modtool: I didn't meant to complain, I just wanted to point out what extreme actions are taken.

I ordered ess. myself this week.

mike

jin choung
08-30-2007, 01:58 PM
oh! wow! holy crap! thanks sil3... yah, i guess i have been living on the moon.

so between xsimodtool and houdini apprentice, you can do all your animation and dynamics stuff in other apps!

dang, that's what i call integrating into your pipeline!!!

jin

prospector
08-30-2007, 03:12 PM
Go to softimage website and download it for Free, its basicallt a Maya PLE but without watermarks,

Looked at limitations...
And how is this used with LW??

Am downloading to see what the big deal is but I see nothing that helps.

prospector
08-30-2007, 03:34 PM
ARRGGGG...incony play toy
Add/Remove

gone

cresshead
08-30-2007, 03:38 PM
if you switch to pro mode...no icons....install>run!

RedBull
08-30-2007, 03:45 PM
so between xsimodtool and houdini apprentice, you can do all your animation and dynamics stuff in other apps!

dang, that's what i call integrating into your pipeline!!!

jin

Yes thats why many of us who have been asking for SDK improvements are now looking at Integration improvements, LW is falling far behind...
And LW could never compete with the big boys, So pipeline integration, Collada/FBX is important for LW...

It's either don't add support for the others and lose customers, or add support and LW gets used in the pipeline, I'd rather put Blenders and Houdini's fluids in LW, but it's getting easier to use XSI, Modo for that too...
Eventually i will use Houdini and Modo, not LW and Houdini....

Getting Collada support would enable XSI/Max/Maya/Blender/Photoshop/AE/Houdini integration into LW, which would enable free Blender fluids, free Houdini Fluids and basically boost LW productivity.

For me Blender and Houdini are plugins like Reaflow is for LW....
NT need to harness the power of everybody else..

StereoMike
08-30-2007, 07:38 PM
Yep. In pro mode it's like the normal XSI versions.

cresshead
08-30-2007, 08:27 PM
yup xsi mod tool...re icons are set to 'on' by default to make it simple to learn.

G-Man
08-30-2007, 10:20 PM
"why not make it a plugin renderer for all 3d apps, just like vray, final render, brazil etc...."

I have thought this for a long time Cresshead! If Newtek took the Lightwave render engine and made it available for Maya, they would make a lot of money! They could easily sell it for $595.00. There is no other renderer with the quality of Lightwave at that price for Maya. Unlimited render nodes is worth the price alone. Have you all seen the pricing scheme for a render farm with Mental Ray, Renderman, etc. People ask why would Newtek do such a thing??? Why does Pixar make Renderman for Maya, hell they make movies! My God, has anyone seen the amount of hell studios go through to get data into Lightwave from Maya only to render it! (Point Oven, Beaver Project, custom code) Lightwave for Maya would put the most powerful asset that Lightwave has in the hands of many studios. By having the Lightwave render engine available to Maya users at the same price as Lightwave would be a no loss proposition for Newtek. Hardcore Maya users wouldn't have bought Lightwave in the first place, now they are paying the same amount to get the famous Lightwave render engine.

Ok, maybe that's a might wish, but If I were Tim Jenison, I'd sure give it a shot. If that isn't in the cards, I would suggest Newtek do everything possible to talk to other applications.

StereoMike
08-31-2007, 03:08 AM
You get the full app for about 895 bucks - with unlimited nodes. Why create a new stripped down package when the full app is that cheap? If they sell a 999 node renderer for 595,- it feels somehow crazy when you look at the competition (maybe even rediculous; 3delight and mentalray aren't cheap). To keep the last bit of pride I'd like to see LW staying a complete package as it is now, but with better connections to the other apps (like XSI does it).
Maybe add a Maya /3ds/XSI hookup plugin to make the renderer available inside the other apps, but don't trash the rest of LW.

mike

Sil3
08-31-2007, 03:42 AM
ARRGGGG...incony play toy
Add/Remove

gone


LOL nice way to test a software ;)

I bet you are a much more hapy person now hehehe :p

Im joking, I simply found it funny thats all...