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Limbus
08-17-2007, 10:47 AM
Now that LW 9.3 is out the door (thanks and congrats to the whole team :) ) how about a little roadmap for the future of Lightwave? What will be the next steps in the 9.x cycle etc...?

Cheers, Florian

AbnRanger
08-18-2007, 02:37 PM
They could tell 'ya...but then they'd have to kill 'ya :D
(quote from the movie, Top Gun)

prospector
08-18-2007, 02:41 PM
They've already said

Limbus
08-19-2007, 10:36 AM
They've already said
Where? I remember some Roadmap that was posted around Version 9. Much has changes since then.

Florian

gaushell
08-19-2007, 10:58 AM
They need to say in specifics. Not generalities. I for one am very frustrated and have offered on more than one occasion to provide input, feedback, etc. We push Lightwave at Paradigm very hard and it is not holding its own anymore.

Come on Newtek - solid answers. If you have cool features working, interface, anything - share it with us. Who cares if it changes.

I need to know if 10 is going to finally fix long time problems and catch up with the competition or not. Stomping the ants and adding minor features to the 9.x pipe I would hope is a minor focus.

Details. And open up the SDK for real to third parties.

As a business owner I need to see progress and a game plan. Too little improvement since 7.5.

I know Newtek is working hard, but if they want to keep users (and those of us that have been loyal for a long time - over 14 years for me) then share info. For instance - I don't need to know how you are fixing GI to work on a network, just that it will be along with basic conceptual outlines.

To put this in a business perspective - when we help a developer market a new condo project - the quickest way for him to lose a reservation for a unit is to not continue to communicate throughout the entire process. Buyers/users want and deserve info - or they walk.

MooseDog
08-19-2007, 10:01 PM
They need to say in specifics. Not generalities. I for one am very frustrated and have offered on more than one occasion to provide input, feedback, etc. We push Lightwave at Paradigm very hard and it is not holding its own anymore.

Come on Newtek - solid answers. If you have cool features working, interface, anything - share it with us. Who cares if it changes.

I need to know if 10 is going to finally fix long time problems and catch up with the competition or not. Stomping the ants and adding minor features to the 9.x pipe I would hope is a minor focus.

Details. And open up the SDK for real to third parties.

As a business owner I need to see progress and a game plan. Too little improvement since 7.5.

I know Newtek is working hard, but if they want to keep users (and those of us that have been loyal for a long time - over 14 years for me) then share info. For instance - I don't need to know how you are fixing GI to work on a network, just that it will be along with basic conceptual outlines.

To put this in a business perspective - when we help a developer market a new condo project - the quickest way for him to lose a reservation for a unit is to not continue to communicate throughout the entire process. Buyers/users want and deserve info - or they walk.

:agree: thank you charles, very well put:thumbsup:

slight disagreement with the too little improvement since 7.5 assertion, but that's my problem. otherwise interesting informative and accurate. hope someone's listening.:lwicon: ?

Nicolas Jordan
08-20-2007, 12:15 AM
There used to be a detailed road map document up on the main Lightwave page prior to the 9.0 release and was quietly taken down. I am guessing that it has disappeared because not everything that was laid out in that document was a sure thing anymore since accomplishing software development goals can be unpredictable. So far I am satisfied with Lightwave development since 9.0 and I am hoping we will start to see Lightwave get good polishing on it's entire interface soon.

There is a long road ahead and as long as Lightwave continues to move forward like it has been and not backwards I will continue to stay on board. There are still some things it does better than any other 3D program I have used.

Limbus
08-20-2007, 02:10 AM
There used to be a detailed road map document up on the main Lightwave page prior to the 9.0 release and was quietly taken down. I am guessing that it has disappeared because not everything that was laid out in that document was a sure thing anymore since accomplishing software development goals can be unpredictable.

Exactly. Thats why we need a new roadmap.

Florian

Cageman
08-20-2007, 02:33 AM
To put this in a business perspective - when we help a developer market a new condo project - the quickest way for him to lose a reservation for a unit is to not continue to communicate throughout the entire process. Buyers/users want and deserve info - or they walk.

Well said!

I have to ask though, what exactly is the biggest showstopper for you guys? You mentioned GI Cache for network rendering. Seeing that you do alot of architecture visualization, I can only imagine what GI cache would mean to you! Apart from GI Chace for network rendering, I hope NT continues to develop the renderer with better support for multipass and layer rendering.

Sadly to say, but I think proper tools for animation and controlling mesh in layout won't be in there anytime soon. If that is a showstopper, you'd better get XSI or Maya to compensate...

Limbus
08-20-2007, 02:47 AM
Well said!

I have to ask though, what exactly is the biggest showstopper for you guys? You mentioned GI Cache for network rendering. Seeing that you do alot of architecture visualization, I can only imagine what GI cache would mean to you!

LAYOUT
- saving of the GI cache
- faster rendering especially GI
- working buffer saver
- instances
- all lights with falloff and soft shadows
- much faster soft shadows

MODELER
- consolidation of tools (one tool will work on points, polys and edges; not one tool for each)
- better CC Subd´s
- better integration of edges
- better selection and manipulation speed

All in all it would be great if NewTek would not add as many features as in the past 9. releases but instead make the features perfect. CC Subd´s, Modeler Tools in Layout, GI improvements and Edges are far from complete and perfect features. On the other hand the node editor and the new camera system is working very well and feature complete (off course everything can be improved).

Cheers, Florian

AbnRanger
08-20-2007, 03:27 AM
To put this in a business perspective - when we help a developer market a new condo project - the quickest way for him to lose a reservation for a unit is to not continue to communicate throughout the entire process. Buyers/users want and deserve info - or they walk.To be honest, Gaushell...Newtek shares more than Autodesk does, by far. I have been patiently waiting for Autodesk to develop an Interactive Renderer for 3ds Max, similar to Fprime...years later...nothing seems to be in sight, nor mentioned. Autodesk is extremely tight-lipped about it's plans, short term and long term.

Combustion development, or lack thereof, is a good example. Two releases of After Effects have gone by since it's last upgrade (4). Not a single word has been mentioned about it, other than that "it's still being developed (and not canned as many suspect)." How's that for communication?

Like Autodesk, neither Maxon (C4D) nor XSI tip their hand in advance either.
Modo seems to be the most forthright in communicating to their customers what their short term development plans are. Newtek appears to me, to be second in that regard.

Personally, I think LW developers are faced with a massive conundrum...which is "how to integrate two separate programs, without ticking off die hards who insist on keeping them separate?" Trying to keep old school LW'ers happy in having it both ways HAS to have the developers pulling their hair out! :stumped: :bangwall:
They want the benefits of integration while maintaining separation. That has to be a collosal headache, and in the end making the overall development of LW MUCH slower...than the competition.

I would, personally, opt for a two track development approach. One: in order to appease current users during the transition, make small scale improvents to the existing architecture and feature set.
Two: develop a completely new architecture, that does away with the outdated two-program approach...thereby eliminating the Hub and all of it's associated problems, allowing all modeling functions to be animated, Fprime to be used in the modeling process, etc., etc.
The beneifts of integration outweigh those of maintaining separation. Sure, there's going to be a lot of heartburn over that by many, but I think the old addage, "It's easier to get forgiveness than to get permission," applies here. If LW'ers get a snazzy new LW that whoops some a$$ets, they'll be far more forgiving, regarding the integration.

By the way, Gaushell, great job on the presentations for the Signature Tower here in Nashville. :thumbsup: Can't wait to see contstruction begin. Some of these smaller residential towers, currently going up (like the Encore), are improving the view of the downtown landscape.

gaushell
08-20-2007, 06:37 PM
Well said!

I have to ask though, what exactly is the biggest showstopper for you guys? You mentioned GI Cache for network rendering. Seeing that you do alot of architecture visualization, I can only imagine what GI cache would mean to you! Apart from GI Chace for network rendering, I hope NT continues to develop the renderer with better support for multipass and layer rendering.

Sadly to say, but I think proper tools for animation and controlling mesh in layout won't be in there anytime soon. If that is a showstopper, you'd better get XSI or Maya to compensate...

The showstopper if you will, has more to do with Lighting, AA, instancing and use of memory. I've always said, and will stand by my statement - the items I would like to see ultimately serve everyone well. We aren't asking for some special tool that only helps the arch viz market.

Better lighting controls, types, real world criteria (IES lighting), soft shadows for all lights, GI that is usable for animation on a network - help everyone.

AA settings that dont' take forever to experiment with, and give you reasonable rendering times would be nice. The new engine is a step in the right direction, but why not give us options of settings like in classic camera, along with the option of tweaking the heck out of it.

Instancing - just go watch some of the videos for Modo or Vue on how instancing helps.

Memory - I want to scream when I have an illustration to render out that is 4000x3000 pixels and Lightwave tells me no! Segment memory error, etc. Quit trying to load everything into memory and thus not leaving any for the rendering task! We have Butterflynet and I can break it into strips, but why doesn't LW look into other ways to utilize bucket rendering, etc.

I had a scene with 2million polys last week (had to have all of them and I really wanted more - LW was choking - couldn't even get it to scrub in bounding box - and I don't have a crappy machine or graphics card.

I know that multipass rendering is in theory an option - but if you look at a project like Signature tower - we did the entire thing in three weeks with three people - we don't have time to break down shots into multipass.

The biggest show stopper is bad communication. I'm not saying they don't care and that no one is working hard. I have no doubt that they do care and know they are hard at work. But clear communication and even real involvement with companies like ours and others that task Lightwave to the max don't have a clue or even a chance to help.

The 3d world is not all about Hollywood or gaming. The visualization markets are growing much faster (there are only so many movies that can be made), yet the tools aren't being dealt with or at least clearly outlined.

I'm trying to remain hopeful, but it is frustrating. I'm not going to pretend like there aren't major issues. If we all don't speak up Lightwave may find itself going the way of the Amiga (which we started on at Paradigm by the way).

gaushell
08-20-2007, 06:40 PM
To be honest, Gaushell...Newtek shares more than Autodesk does, by far. I have been patiently waiting for Autodesk to develop an Interactive Renderer for 3ds Max, similar to Fprime...years later...nothing seems to be in sight, nor mentioned. Autodesk is extremely tight-lipped about it's plans, short term and long term.

Combustion development, or lack thereof, is a good example. Two releases of After Effects have gone by since it's last upgrade (4). Not a single word has been mentioned about it, other than that "it's still being developed (and not canned as many suspect)." How's that for communication?

Like Autodesk, neither Maxon (C4D) nor XSI tip their hand in advance either.
Modo seems to be the most forthright in communicating to their customers what their short term development plans are. Newtek appears to me, to be second in that regard.

Personally, I think LW developers are faced with a massive conundrum...which is "how to integrate two separate programs, without ticking off die hards who insist on keeping them separate?" Trying to keep old school LW'ers happy in having it both ways HAS to have the developers pulling their hair out! :stumped: :bangwall:
They want the benefits of integration while maintaining separation. That has to be a collosal headache, and in the end making the overall development of LW MUCH slower...than the competition.

I would, personally, opt for a two track development approach. One: in order to appease current users during the transition, make small scale improvents to the existing architecture and feature set.
Two: develop a completely new architecture, that does away with the outdated two-program approach...thereby eliminating the Hub and all of it's associated problems, allowing all modeling functions to be animated, Fprime to be used in the modeling process, etc., etc.
The beneifts of integration outweigh those of maintaining separation. Sure, there's going to be a lot of heartburn over that by many, but I think the old addage, "It's easier to get forgiveness than to get permission," applies here. If LW'ers get a snazzy new LW that whoops some a$$ets, they'll be far more forgiving, regarding the integration.

By the way, Gaushell, great job on the presentations for the Signature Tower here in Nashville. :thumbsup: Can't wait to see contstruction begin. Some of these smaller residential towers, currently going up (like the Encore), are improving the view of the downtown landscape.

Thanks for the compliment - fun project. Starting on a new video this week for them.

I should be clearer on Autodesk - I don't mean to imply that they provide all and that Newtek doesn't. What Autodesk has always done well with is encouraging and opening up their system for third parties. They don't try to do it all in their base package.

If I were Newtek, I would layout a plan and like you say, just tell some people too bad, we are doing XXXX because it is in the best interest of the company and the userbase in the long term.

monovich
08-20-2007, 07:05 PM
Why can't Newtek put up 24/7 webcam on each of it's coders like this girl (http://www.justin.tv/ijustine) so that we can watch the progress of LW realtime? We could also sit in on all the development meetings and FINALLY satisfy our insatiable desire to see what the NEXT BIG THING in LW will really be?

who needs a roadmap?

Iain
08-21-2007, 02:19 AM
I think the comaprisons with Autodesk and Luxology are only partly valid.

Autodesk doesn't have to be overly communicative. They have more than their market share already and are happy to let it grow by buying the competition and keeping their existing customers happy with acceptable upgrades.
Luxology is trying to expand their market share from nothing by showing what their software can do. Their marketing is perfect: friendly, energetic and honest. They promise things and you get the impression they will deliver.

Newtek are somewhere in between. Their users and potential users are wondering if the future is as good as has been hinted at recently and if they want to reassure us about that, they need to tell us what's ahead.
As Charles said, if some of that changed, so what? At least we'd have some hope. And if that sounds desperate, it's intended to as there are other options out there (from the two companies above, among others) and they are continually progressing their software too.

dballesg
08-21-2007, 02:20 AM
I need a roadmap, and it is not an issue to take as a joke.

I need to know where LW's direction it is going to "point" in the next few months. I need to know if it will give me the tools I will need for my next project.

If Newtek doesn't give us that roadmap, "us" (Newtek's clients), can lost "benefits" on our companies or projects because we could not do certain projects in it's actual state. I mean: Are we "betting" for the looser horse?

If I know which tools and the reasonable accurate frametime are going to be available, then I can bet on LightWave for our next project.

DogBoy
08-21-2007, 02:36 AM
Newtek are somewhere in between. Their users and potential users are wondering if the future is as good as has been hinted at recently and if they want to reassure us about that, they need to tell us what's ahead.

They have done as far as they feel they can. They have already given a rough idea of where they are heading.


As Charles said, if some of that changed, so what? At least we'd have some hope. And if that sounds desperate, it's intended to as there are other options out there (from the two companies above, among others) and they are continually progressing their software too.

Iain, those options have always been there. If NT were to give us a roadmap (full or vague) there are plenty here who would take that as a "maybe", because that is all it can be. Though it may calm some, it won't calm everyone.

If you look at 9.3 it is more than they said they would do for the next release. They next release was supposed to be a bug-fix only release, but instead NT added more features as well. Though they didn't handle the release as well as I'd like, they did get 9.3 out in a pretty timely fashion and it did kill an awful lot of bugs.

Their stated aim has always been to clear out the legacy junk form the code, with added features coming a second (in my opinion). 9.2 was a pretty impressive point release, 9.3 not so big of one. But if you consider that only a small part of the dev team are concerned with shading and rendering, it is obvious that the majority of them are working on something else. My guess is something big.

Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, for now, and see what comes out from the dev pit next.

DogBoy
08-21-2007, 02:44 AM
I need a roadmap, and it is not an issue to take as a joke.

I need to know where LW's direction it is going to "point" in the next few months. I need to know if it will give me the tools I will need for my next project.

If Newtek doesn't give us that roadmap, "us" (Newtek's clients), can lost "benefits" on our companies or projects because we could not do certain projects in it's actual state. I mean: Are we "betting" for the looser horse?

If I know which tools and the reasonable accurate frametime are going to be available, then I can bet on LightWave for our next project.

You want to bet your business on upcoming features? You are a brave man :hey: .

I understand your "need" for a roadmap, but let's be honest, we aren't likely to get one. It has been stated before in similar threads that they will not (despite the pressure we are exerting) give us a more definitive map than we already have. We have shouted and screamed and the answer has always been no!

I know it is frustrating, but that is the way they want to play it, we are just going to have to accept that.

*Pete*
08-21-2007, 03:01 AM
guys..you will not get a roadmap.

Newtek doesnt want to get tied by promises that they might not be able to keep.

During the beta of 9.3 i learned a lot of the problems a programming team can face, sometimes...things just wont go as fast as planned, sometimes you get unexpected and positive results.

NT didnt intend to take the GI to the stage it is now, we at the beta were pressing for that and everyone, including Newtek, got super exited over the huge improvements...but, there is only a number of things they can do at the time, some things had to be postponed for the sake of the GI.

how many here are unhappy over the GI speed improvements?, would you change those improvements against....say, instancing?

the lack of a roadmap, is becouce Newtek wants to be able to flexible to any situation that might occur..perhaps (most likely) they already have different versions of lightings systems, CA tools, instancing...but perhaps (most likely) those things arent ready yet, and it maybe is difficult to say how long it will take, before they are functional enough to be implemented into LW.

a roadmap is a promise...if they would announce that they will implement new ca tools before new year, instancing before february and a new lighting system before april....and meet unexpected problems with any of those things, instead of being able to it to aside for a while and instead implement something else..they would get huge amount of critisism for failing to follow the roadmap.

a roadmap is a promise, that is the problem...not always you can keep promises, even if you honestly try your best.


I would love to see a roadmap, very much so..but i understand the problematics with it, and i trust that Newtek knows what we want and need.

DogBoy
08-21-2007, 03:21 AM
:agree: Well said.

Wonderpup
08-21-2007, 03:42 AM
I wonder what would happen if NT simply issued a weekly newsletter detailing the current state of Lightwaves development, and ongoing discussions of future plans?

Would we all become more demanding and critical? or would that level of involvement make it clear how difficult and unpredictable the process is, and make us more patient and understanding?

My own recent decision to begin the move away from lightwave was in part driven by the fact that no announcements were made at siggraph regarding the current state of development and long term intent.

The nature of the work I do is changing and I need to know if my needs and NTs vision of the future are compatible. In the absence of any information I would have to make decisions based on speculation and rumour, and so have decided instead to 'play it safe' by moving to an app that has what I need now, rather than speculate on a largely unknown future.

DogBoy
08-21-2007, 03:56 AM
Good luck with your decision. It must have been tough, and I wish you the best. Hopefully LW will be in your repetoire when and if you need it.

Lightwolf
08-21-2007, 04:00 AM
In the absence of any information I would have to make decisions based on speculation and rumour, and so have decided instead to 'play it safe' by moving to an app that has what I need now, rather than speculate on a largely unknown future.
Even if there was that information, basing your choice on what might be is never a wise move.
Get the app that does what you need now...

Cheers,
Mike

*Pete*
08-21-2007, 04:04 AM
Wonderpup...i totally understand your situation.

the fact is, no matter what Newtek does next, there will always be someone who will not get what he/she wants..if you get what you need, perhaps i wont get what i need ;)

anyway...it is only good for you to get an another 3d application, you do not need to "leave" LW in order to get just those functions that you are looking for in an other application...many pros use several applications.

those who wish to sculpt, buy ZBrush and do it there, but they are not necessarily leaving LW for Zbrush...


the same goes for animation, or what ever your needs may be.


it doesnt have to be the end of the world, if NT wont give us the toys we need, other apps have them..but other apps also have own problems, some areas LW is better at, some worse.

if you need an other app, get it...do your needs there and jump back to LW if LW can do it better next year

colkai
08-21-2007, 04:40 AM
the fact is, no matter what Newtek does next, there will always be someone who will not get what he/she wants..if you get what you need, perhaps i wont get what i need ;)

Therein lies the crux of the whole problem.
Everyone out there, myself include naturally, have a very clear idea of what THEY want, which is most important to them and their work.

The chances of that feature being the same for all is, at best, minimal, and so Newtek MUST follow what they have envisioned for LW and trust that it will appease many and attract more.

If it does not, then yes, one has to move away.

Some of us are in fact in a worse position, as a hobbyist, I know, even if I hate what LW9.X ends up being, I can't buy another software package, the finance simply isn't there, it will simply be the point at which my 3D software reverts to being "upgraded" by free versions of cover DVD's - as it started out.

At least, for those that can offset costs, you know you can recoup, even if it does gall to be 'forced' to switch to get your work done.

It's a strange beast this upgrade and I am not entirely sure what my feelings are as to the future. Not least of which because we are still not sure to what extent we are going to get what features.

Which, pretty much, puts us back at the start, Newtek, when all is said and done, will deliver what they deliver, when they deliver it.
Until that day, people will switch packages, or not and have a raft of opinions and assumptions as to what the future may, or may not, hold.

Amongst those, you may count myself. ;)

*Pete*
08-21-2007, 05:03 AM
yeah...its a difficult situation.

I do believe that Lw will get updated CA tools, Instancing and a new lighting system, among many other things promised earlier by Newtek (lighting and instancing werent promised to us, i think, but i bet we get them also).

but in what order and how long it will take...i wish i knew.


as i mentioned earlier...i understand everyone here, including Newtek...we want a roadmap, they cant give it.

and if they give it, we would hold the roadmap as a signed legal contract and expect things to arrive at set times, at an acceptable quality..and bugfree ;)


all we can do, is to try to push Newtek to do those things we want them to do by spamming the forums with our requests.


Lw is a very cabable tool...for 95% of its users, but every now and then you get to a point where you are forced to cheat in order to get the image done, and at those times we all get frustrated...and want to know when comes the day we dont need to cheat anymore.

I am a hobbyist, the same as you colkai..with aspirations to start my own company though.

one of the reasons i wont take the step from hobbyist to professional, is that there are situations (archviz) that i dont know how to solve yet (cheating gives a lot of limitations for creativity)

moc
08-21-2007, 05:26 AM
How about some feature video to show what's going on?

dballesg
08-21-2007, 05:45 AM
You want to bet your business on upcoming features? You are a brave man .

Not really, but I cannot say a customer asking for a short film quote "I do not know how long it will take us to do it, sorry!! mainly because I do not know if my main app would be able to do it", and then try to quote the project for him.

So I need advice and a bit of guessing game here.

As I said I am REALLY happy with Newtek has done so far. I am not happy being on a partial darkness about what changes they will produced on the next months.

Because maybe those "future" changes are good enough to keep LW on our pipeline as render only for example. And instead use another tool to do the animation, if it is transferable to LW to render of course.

I've been looking abroad and LW still gives you the best price / render quality and possibilities ratio. So it would be logical to keep it at least for the render part.

But for Characters, hair, and cloth animation is "light years" away from others.


Even if there was that information, basing your choice on what might be is never a wise move.
Get the app that does what you need now... .

Advice taken! :)

Aside the Vorlon / Mimbari types of answers we received lately from Newtek are the ones that really worry me.

I am sure they can be slightly more open telling us what they are cooking, "without" compromise themselves on a fixed release date.

At least "The shadows" are showing what they are cooking! :)

I do not want to "erase" LW from our pipeline. We love it, but it is one of this moments when you ask yourself "It is going to be good enough for this project?"

I think reading your answers has give me the one I needed! :)

David

vadermanchild
08-21-2007, 07:57 AM
Newtek dont want a roadmap so they can have the flexibility to churn out another Hypervoxel pile of crap, anotehr crappy skin shader so people can make lots of waxy looking bald heads or a nother hack modeller clampon for layout and wave them infront of oldtime users and expect us to buy it.

we dont.

NEWTEK PLEASE Stop wasting valuable resource on CHEAP HACKS and get prioritising SERIOUSLY.

THe upgrades are too slow and too small - too frequently punctuated by the usual NEWTEK HACKS.

STOP BOTCHING & start behaving like a proper developer.

DogBoy
08-21-2007, 08:03 AM
wow, way to get yourself heard :hey:
I take it you are slightly upset by how the dev process is going.

DogBoy
08-21-2007, 08:21 AM
Now, why would you think that? :D

It was the fact i had to put an umbrella up to protect my keyboard from the spittle flecked invective.

vadermanchild
08-21-2007, 08:54 AM
I wont get myself heard cause Newtek dont really listen.

I strongly believe their focus is to pot...or worse they are deliberately pumping out hacks while telling us that the core re-write is their goal - I dont saee how it can be both and the hacks certainly dont benifit users. THe hacks benifits only Newtek when it comes time to put bullet points in a Press release.

It fools no-one.

And yes - like a lot of once loyal faithfull I`m seriously fed up with the lack of info and seeming lack of focus.

I remember when modeler was admired.

Andyjaggy
08-21-2007, 09:08 AM
Therein lies the crux of the whole problem.
Everyone out there, myself include naturally, have a very clear idea of what THEY want, which is most important to them and their work.


True. I could care less if we get CA improvements in LW. I do however care a great deal about what happens to modeler over the next 6 months. If we get instancing or not, and if Layout will finally be able to handle high poly displacements. All you CA people can get lost :D

OOZZEE
08-21-2007, 09:13 AM
a simple roadmap would be easy to produce not necessarily require detailed time contsraints. At least their game plan for 9.5... even if they don't deliver, they can always explain themselves with a valid reason and that would be acceptable because software development is not the easiest thing and I'm sure the LW community knows that !! for example, they can simply say, for 9.5, our goal is to concentrate on CA improvements and bug fixes. -then we, as users, would go WOW - COOL !! and if they were not able to pull it off, then so be it, there are other tools out there. it's a simple request from the users which I'm sure NT can deliver on, to mitigate ongoing frustration. I mean they do KNOW what they are working on right ? OR maybe they can't give a game plan because they are not clear themsleves as to what to do next... or maybe they just like to keep their users agitated with unknowns. let's take from 9.2 to 9.3 - does anyone recall seeing anywhere that they were creating another Sigma version 2. ???? how hard would it have been to tell LW'vers that a new version of this was coming. at one point between 9.2 and 9.3, someone knew wtf they were releasing but said nothing. it takes 5 minutes to post a shopping list. With all the new apps out there, the difference where the money will go is in informing your clients as best as possible and keeping them happy.

Luxology understands this quite well... Modo is missing a lot of features however the user base rarely complains because Brad & Co constantly shower the users with videos of improvements and we go WOW COOL and forget the missing stuff because we see and get the information as to what is coming and we see advancement... so even though there are no CA tools in Modo, we don't entirely care at the moment because they SHOW us all the other things they are doing and working hard on which impresses me. THEY ARE KEEPING ME 'THE CLIENT' HAPPY!

I'm sure NT can afford to hire a smart joe at $12./hr to post a bit of info on the forums to keep their clients happy ???


I feel so much better now that I let that hot air out. Ooouuffff ;-)

DogBoy
08-21-2007, 09:14 AM
All you CA people can get lost :D

Screw you, spaceship jockey :neener:

But I agree, modeler is the runty kid wi' the sticky out teeth. NT get it to the orthodontist already!

Cageman
08-21-2007, 09:18 AM
And yes - like a lot of once loyal faithfull I`m seriously fed up with the lack of info and seeming lack of focus.

I remember when modeler was admired.

Lack of focus? So far I have seen great focus on advancing the renderer. I can't see how that would have happened without focus. Care to explain what you are reffering to?

dballesg
08-21-2007, 09:22 AM
I wont get myself heard cause Newtek dont really listen.

Sometimes they do, I remember how the post of several members of this forums about GI improvements on arch viz were heard and they started to improve it when no one expected.

I remember a teacher of mine saying that he put the evaluations on our exams throwing them into the air, and those that stand on its edge over the table were the good ones! :)

Looks like Newtek is doing that when we the users start to claim more information about the next features and progress.

I am sure they print our messages and throw them into the air, those on its edge over the table win! :)

Maybe we can use a wind controller to help them to decide. Oh I forgot how limited the dynamics are in LW! :devil:

David

dballesg
08-21-2007, 09:24 AM
I'm sure NT can afford to hire a smart joe at $12./hr to post a bit of info on the forums to keep their clients happy ???

WOW They paid so few bucks to Chuck???? :devil:

OOZZEE
08-21-2007, 09:27 AM
WOW They paid so few bucks to Chuck???? :devil:


oh you mean they have someone who is suppose to do this already but isn't ?

dballesg
08-21-2007, 09:31 AM
oh you mean they have someone who is suppose to do this already but isn't ?

He does much more! :) I was only doing a joke! :)

He is the Manager of the development Team and he post here, maybe not as frequently and as informative as some user would like! :)

A few of his answers sometimes deserve to be on the best Kosh dialogs! :)

OOZZEE
08-21-2007, 09:40 AM
hehe - well I hope they pay him more than $12/hr. cause if they don't, that may be the main reason we are NOT getting the info like we want it.

vadermanchild
08-21-2007, 09:43 AM
The lack of focus im refering to is the hacks they produce.

Modeller tools in Layout= Hack. Why waste the time.?

Any of the "use once for a waxy head and forget" node textures. Why waste the time.?

Why focus on glass rendering when the basics tools are broken. Modeler is a heap and they are working on adding NEW parts?

its the basic - get whats broke fixed.... Proper undos...woudl be a nice start. Some sort of scene management. you know - the usual old skool requests.

Focus on the rebuild - dont add extensions especially whne they are often as superficial as they are. Newteks old way of workign was to hack it all together. They are trying to do better but have relapses.

Sure there must be an update to skytracer due sometime soon.

OOZZEE
08-21-2007, 09:59 AM
Sure there must be an update to skytracer due sometime soon.


ah yes.. skytracer a la Ozone3. - that would be a nice improvement.

dballesg
08-21-2007, 10:02 AM
Sure there must be an update to skytracer due sometime soon.

I hope they do not waste the time with that. If you got LW upgrade with Vue 5 and upgraded it to Vue 6 (or not, vue 5 was good enough for skies. You can render those as HDR even and use them on LW, much better than SkyTracer.

I agree that they need to fix the Modeler Tools in Layout.

As you said on a prior post they need to prioritize.

And I think for the voices airing, Modeler, Modeler Tools in Layout, Character Animation Tools and Instancing (on render) are the most popular asked / needed features.

calilifestyle
08-21-2007, 10:49 AM
Character Animation Tools and Instancing , for me plzzzz,hehe
BTW is 9.3 out and if so how do we update our 9.2 ... if anything this also something i think we need a way to upgrade with having 4 version of a point upgrade/bugfixs partch.

Cageman
08-21-2007, 11:43 AM
The lack of focus im refering to is the hacks they produce.

Modeller tools in Layout= Hack. Why waste the time.?

The tools we see now was just the first step. OB-users has also got information on why this is taking longer than expected to fully implement.



Any of the "use once for a waxy head and forget" node textures. Why waste the time.?

Here is the interresting part. I imagine that there is only one or maybe two coders that has the knowledge of writing shaders, such as SSS, Dielectric and so on (I'm talking about the current devs over at NT). If that coder can create an SSS-shader that is faster and more workable, shouln't he do it? He may or may not be able to participate in writing Modeling-tools (or re-writing/consolidating) because he simply do not have the required knowledge or codebase to do so. So, if he is focused on working with nodes/renderer, he should continue to do so, don't you think? Or should he sit down and roll his thumbs?

I belive that this is true for all coders working to rebuild LightWave. They have their specific area of knowledge, and some things may take alot longer than anticipated.




Why focus on glass rendering when the basics tools are broken. Modeler is a heap and they are working on adding NEW parts?


Again, the coder behind nodes and rendering may not be able to participate in what is going on with Modeler.



its the basic - get whats broke fixed.... Proper undos...woudl be a nice start. Some sort of scene management. you know - the usual old skool requests.

Well, once again OB-users got an explanation to why certain things will take longer to fix.



Focus on the rebuild - dont add extensions especially whne they are often as superficial as they are.

Well, extensions such as new nodes are probably related to an already extracted part of LightWave, the renderer, wich is, I believe, much, much easier to update and maintain today than what it was 2 years ago.

Limbus
08-21-2007, 11:53 AM
BTW is 9.3 out and if so how do we update our 9.2 ... if anything this also something i think we need a way to upgrade with having 4 version of a point upgrade/bugfixs partch.
Sure its out. You can download it from register.newtek.com.

Install it in a new directory and copy over your 3rd paty plugins and presets and your good to go.

Cheers, Florian

calilifestyle
08-21-2007, 02:51 PM
Anyone know if they fix the problem with bones, that was seen in version 9.2 ik booster had problem so did maestro

ericsmith
08-21-2007, 03:09 PM
I wasn't aware of any issue with bones and Maestro in 9.2. Can you elaborate?

Eric

calilifestyle
08-21-2007, 03:27 PM
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69204&highlight=Maestro

and i cant find the bone one but it in here somewhere. problems with fixing points right dont recall since i have been haveing other problems.

vadermanchild
08-21-2007, 05:08 PM
Again, the coder behind nodes and rendering may not be able to participate in what is going on with Modeler.




I understand what your saying but lets hope Newtek havent hired too many shader writers over coders - other coders who might have time to rewrite other little things like - ogl - modeller, scene managment - Screamernet - undos - the multitude of just about anything you care to mention that needs attention much more than a sigma2.

If Newtek can let more than one person progress the code simultaneously (which im sure they can) then they need to hire less shader writers and more of the relevant coders to progress their goal of a rewrite.

If they got sucha a small development team that might even mean having NO SHADER writers at all for a while. I know I wont feel too bad getting along without a new look for my strawberry colored waxy bald head with glowing ears.

I`m sticking with the idea I`m seeing too much shallow, frankly rubbish and unnecesarry additions - not enough of the promised fundamental change. Yes theres been some change in the core but its the fluff they have spent their time on which makes my mind bend when there is so much work to do in important areas.

Chuck
08-21-2007, 06:00 PM
Yes theres been some change in the core but its the fluff they have spent their time on which makes my mind bend when there is so much work to do in important areas.

Even a spot review of this thread, let alone a review of the forum at large, will indicate very clearly that one man's "fluff" is another man's "meat and potatoes."

Every bit of work we've done was asked for and is important to a significant number of users. If no one had asked for it and no one needed it, it wouldn't have gotten onto the schedule. It is also the case that every bit of work we do gets characterized by some number of users as fluff that they didn't need and don't use, while they cite things they feel should have been the priorities. Some folks will agree with a given point of view, while others tell them they are wrong, and list other items as priorities instead, or commend some aspect of the work that did get done.

This is, of course, quite something to have to sort through these differing needs and interests of a diverse base of users. We do our best to take this kind of feedback and information gathered in other ways and establish reasonable priorities to meet the needs of users as broadly as possible. In general the result should be some satisfaction all around, but also clearly a given cycle is likely to meet some needs better than others.

As for the roadmap, we've described pretty clearly what users can expect in the 9.x series. We haven't pegged specific items to specific point releases, and likely won't, but we've stated that major improvements in character animation tools and in modeling tools will be forthcoming in the cycle. Improvements in our ability to work in the pipeline with other applications are also planned.

Integrating modeling into Layout has indeed turned out to be more problematic than we'd hoped. We were not attempting hacks, but trying to implement a fully fledged solution for integration of these capabilities in Layout. However, our initial designs did not prove out. At this point, we can't promise that we'll necessarily make more progress on this front in the 9.x cycles.

We have fixed a lot of legacy issues and replaced a lot of elements of the code base with vastly improved designs. The 9.0 through 9.3 releases have seen a huge amount of progress in capability, and I would hope that users would look at the data that is accumulating and conclude that we're moving fast now and in the right direction. If you feel we're not, rest assured we'll listen to what you have to say and give it every consideration.

There's a lot of great stuff cooking here in our 3D division; likely we will be able to provide more info on that in the coming weeks. In the meantime, please rest assured we are working hard to fulfill the commitments we've made for the 9.x cycles, and we'll be bringing those things to you just as quickly as we can.

gaushell
08-21-2007, 07:20 PM
Chuck,

I"m glad that someone from Newtek jumped in. Communication is key, especially for those of us that have businesses where Lightwave is a key product.

I've sent personal emails to several people at Newtek (all the way to the top) and have offered up ourselves as a partner to help in any way possible. We task the xxx out of Lightwave every day.......those offers, critiques, etc. have fallen on deaf ears.

I have to repeat what I said early in the thread. I believe it is a huge business mistake for Newtek to now clarify the game plan. Reasonable people understand things will change. But we have serious concerns and I don't understand why things that I've listed for years and again in this thread are not more fully addressed. I'm not asking for special features.

And you statement about "major improvements in character animation tools and in modeling tools" leave me even more concerned - lighting, caching of GI, memory issues, instancing, AA issues continue to seemingly be only partially addressed (see my comments here and elsewhere for more details).

Paradigm Productions is concerned. We offered to help give real ideas, real feedback. Not sure what else to do. After 14 plus years with Lightwave, I am having to seriously contemplate other options.

I'm not looking to xitch about the product. I want it to be the best, which makes all of this the more frustrating.

I'm available to speak in private via phone or email.

GraphXs
08-21-2007, 08:15 PM
Great News Chuck!

Thanks for sharing:lwicon: :thumbsup: :newtek:

gaushell I'm not in the Vis field, but does lightwave have that many issues with rendering. I know it has memory issues with large file, but don't ya render in layers or parts and recomp and touch them up in photoshop? Do you use F-Prime? I know I don't understand what issues you are going through, but after viewing you site (great stuff) how is lightwave gotten worst in your eyes, I would think with all the GI/rendering updates it would have gotten better for you? What about 64bit, doesn't that improve rendering.

ericsmith
08-21-2007, 08:50 PM
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthr...hlight=Maestro

and i cant find the bone one but it in here somewhere. problems with fixing points right dont recall since i have been haveing other problems.

That thread was a bit vague, but here's the bottom line. As far as I'm aware, the only issue with the release version of 9.2 is the interaction issue where you don't see layout update until you stop moving the mouse. It's an annoying issue, but technically everything works.

Eric

gaushell
08-21-2007, 08:52 PM
Great News Chuck!

Thanks for sharing:lwicon: :thumbsup: :newtek:

gaushell I'm not in the Vis field, but does lightwave have that many issues with rendering. I know it has memory issues with large file, but don't ya render in layers or parts and recomp and touch them up in photoshop? Do you use F-Prime? I know I don't understand what issues you are going through, but after viewing you site (great stuff) how is lightwave gotten worst in your eyes, I would think with all the GI/rendering updates it would have gotten better for you? What about 64bit, doesn't that improve rendering.

Thanks. Please hear me - I like Lightwave - have used it for over 14 years. I didn't say it had gotten worse, but I do have concerns.

We have to spend a lot of time with work arounds that aren't necessary in other packages.

We use fPrime, Butterflynet, you name it. We have a large render farm, etc. No caching of GI data on network, thus it is useless for animations.

We produced over 150 projects last year using Lightwave and already over 100 this year . Several very large projects with very short deadlines. 10 of us are using LW full time every day.

We tend to do very little post because of tight deadlines and needing animations and illustrations to match.

You should see a park scene where I have over 2million polys. LW chokes and crashes all the time. Given the nature of arch viz, we don't have the option of using a layered approach and comping back in post - things are too fluid up until the bitter end.

The rendering engine is better and great improvements in speed. But that is only part of the story. The new camera settings are overly complicated, memory is a killer on large illustrations, instancing is lacking (hdinstance is not a viable option - we own it), stupid light things like the area light sends out light 90 degrees from a spot light so you can't just swap, very few lighting options and not enough soft edges, etc. - too many fine points to try to list in a short thread.

Lighting, AA, instancing, memory, network rendering - those are the five basics for us. I'm not complaining about speed, though we'll always take more.

Again - trying to help, not pull down. It just seems evident that we have to speak loud in hopes that it will help - silence and trying to communicate other ways has not worked.

Nicolas Jordan
08-21-2007, 09:06 PM
Thanks for the info Chuck. In my opinion Lightwave has come a long ways in it's capability since I started with Lightwave 6.0. Even though rendering is important I am looking forward to other areas being addressed in the 9 cycle. The program needs a good polishing with it's interface for example the window resizing handles in the lower right of windows like the scene editor and motion mixer need to be removed and the standard(dragging the edge) window resizing method implemented like most other programs have. I see that some of this polish has already begun with 9.3 like the fact that you can drag the cross hairs to resize the modeler view ports and have it preview and not redraw them until you mouse up. I also noticed the scene editor has new green visual parenting feedback indicators that are much better than before. I am sure that the dev team is well aware of the things that should/need to be accomplished and only have to figure out what things are the biggest priority and what will keep the vast majority of users happy. The big things add power the little things add polish. :D

Nicolas Jordan
08-21-2007, 09:23 PM
Lighting, AA, instancing, memory, network rendering - those are the five basics for us.


All the things that gaushell mentioned would also be welcome features and improvements for us here at Liquid Light since we use Lightwave for architectural visualization work too.


I'm just curious gaushell, what about AA is lacking?

gaushell
08-21-2007, 09:46 PM
fine for stills - not so fine for animations. we continue to run test after test, but swimming is a big issue without extremely long render times.

it has gotten better, but room for improvement for sure.

probably like us - you have scenes where we have very small, fine objects and/or heavy contrast.

robk
08-21-2007, 10:23 PM
AA is always an issue for us at Liquid Light. Mainly for Animations as you mentioned Charles. Memory limitations are one of the other things that cause us problems. I have done quite a few setups for a high res renders lately and have had to reboot into 64 bit windows to render because lightwave chews up memory so much when I try to render in 32 bit windows. (please bring back the days of Imagine's renders when I could do a 15000x10000 render on a 1 GB ram machine)
A render engine that can handle larger scenes would really be appreciated, even if some parts have to temporarily be cached to the hard drive
(something like Fprime does)
Are Bucket renderers more efficient or just display the rendered image differently?

alifx
08-21-2007, 10:27 PM
nice to see you in this thread chuck..


I've finished training basics of 3d on LW for some young students here, and I see that they love it.. but they only complained about the interface and undos in layout hehehe ... I think because they saw some screenshots interfaces of different 3d programs :P XD

I wish I had only that complain about LW... I would be the happiest person then heheh :P



chuck,

I see the "old" lightwave code is like a curse!! :grumpy: ...sorry I dunno :stumped: ... you guys at the development team are facing hundreds of problems on every task even in things that most of us "non-programmers" see they are easy to have! ... like a Box tool in layout!, though it's already in modeler and every 3d app! though I wouldn't say we need that anyway :)

of course what we have the requests of our needs in LW.. like what gaushell said about are important, like instancing, memory, and etc... among others requests like CA improvments, render passes ......etc :thumbsup:


you guys are really really working hard to implent those improvments within the 9.x cycle ..... and FREE without any charges...

we all appreciate your effort to make LW better and keep us happy.. ;)



and sorry for my English :)

prospector
08-21-2007, 11:05 PM
Integrating modeling into Layout has indeed turned out to be more problematic than we'd hoped.
cool. I like that answer :D Never bring the 2 together, LW will be ruined.


As for the roadmap, we've described pretty clearly what users can expect in the 9.x series. We haven't pegged specific items to specific point releases, and likely won't, but we've stated that major improvements in character animation tools and in modeling tools will be forthcoming in the cycle.

Which has been what the roadmap has been all along according to the big cahuna when the 9 cycle began.

Don't know why everyone says Newtek doesn't have one.

toby
08-22-2007, 12:30 AM
fine for stills - not so fine for animations. we continue to run test after test, but swimming is a big issue without extremely long render times.

By swimming do you mean the apparent floating of objects because they don't have contact-shadows? There's a trick for that, apply an ambient occlusion shader to the neccessary surfaces, with a very limited range (10-100mm) and with low samples (@5). This will 'fill the cracks', put dark shadows at the base of objects, but render very fast. When using this technique you can usually reduce the accuracy of the radiosity to save more time.

I've asked for the radiosity cache save-to-file feature too, but considering how many, and how loudly, people are asking for character anim improvements, I feel lucky to have gotten Final Gather - have you thought of KRay for your animations?

toby
08-22-2007, 12:44 AM
Even a spot review of this thread, let alone a review of the forum at large, will indicate very clearly that one man's "fluff" is another man's "meat and potatoes."

Every bit of work we've done was asked for and is important to a significant number of users. If no one had asked for it and no one needed it, it wouldn't have gotten onto the schedule. It is also the case that every bit of work we do gets characterized by some number of users as fluff that they didn't need and don't use, while they cite things they feel should have been the priorities.
It's amazing how true that is. I got into a discussion with someone who was saying that *no one* wanted or needed the new radiosity methods - that the old brute-force monte-carlo was fine, because radiosity is 'slow in all programs anyway', and that *everyone* needed better character tools. I don't think he ever noticed the ArchViz forum is even there...

Verlon
08-22-2007, 12:58 AM
Having a raodmap doesn't stop you from getting lost. Every time you publish one, you run the risk of not being able to deliver, and thus angering some number of users.

Lightwave is a computer program. For the sake of this example, Let's say you want the CA tools we were promised by our 'roadmap.' Lightwave runs on an OS. Let's say Windows. Windows runs on a CPU. Lets say Intel Core 2 Duo and uses a video card, which will be nvidia.

None of those things your program runs on are fixed. They are being developed in new ways all the time. So the guys at NT are 'prioritizing' your CA tools when NVidia releases a new graphics card with floating point power to spare. Intel releases a new CPU/architecture that allows for better communication between the two so you can mooch FPU cycles off the video card. Windows releases a patch to enable this. It also introduces a bug that makes the Sentinel drivers crash Lightwave.

However, if you COULD run the new system, you could render your scenes 100 times faster. Now, should they STICK to the CA tools priority? Should the fix the dongle bug? Should they do what it takes to gain the super fast rendering option.

Its like trying to build a car (had to get a car analogy in here) while driving the car and with an ever changing inventory of parts and tools. And the car is never done. Anything might be upgraded based on what shows up in the inventory.

Believe me, the place where I work produces roadmaps all the time. They get updated every quarter and the only time you KNOW they are right is when they are refer to the past. THings just change too fast in the computer world for a roadmap.

Newtek....I demand you produce a "development GPS" to give us realtime updates on products. :devil:

Limbus
08-22-2007, 01:19 AM
Hi Chuck,
thanks for replying to this thread :thumbsup:

For me Lighting, AA, instancing, memory, network rendering and some modeling improvements are also the top priority.

Cheers, Florian

vadermanchild
08-22-2007, 01:29 AM
Its good to hear news that there might be news.:thumbsup:




Lighting, AA, instancing, memory, network rendering - those are the five basics for us.


These are the "meat and potatoes" in many clear thinking users minds - I got a feeling Chucks list is much broader. For some reason to me it seems clear the distinction btween whats import (CORE as Newtek put it) and whats not. SO If Newtek do listen I`ll just say please less shaders - whats the point of a skin shader when Lightwave cant handle large poly displaced head to put it to use on?

Sigma2, Skytracer and a whole host of things we can frankly do without while these important meaty gravy covered potatoe wedges are undercooked.


I dont think its a grey area - its fairly apparent what is fluff and what is meat. Just now our meat and potoes got fluff on it. It dont taste nice. 8)

My fingers are crossed the 9.x cycle works out for Newtek. If they dont make the advancements in the fundamentals I see LW bedcoming more marginalised.

vadermanchild
08-22-2007, 01:40 AM
Newtek....I demand you produce a "development GPS" to give us realtime updates on products. :devil:

nice j.k but no one is asking for this level of info.

were not crackpots - we simply need info to prevent us giving up waiting and purchasing competing products who already out the box do what Newtek say LW might do at some point undetermined.

When it comes the info need to be of a good quality too.

I recall in press releases Newtek listed modeller tools in Layout for 9.2 but Chuck admits its a feature that wasnt very succesffuly applied..some users would user stronger language. I wonder at what point they realised it didnt work?

voriax
08-22-2007, 02:04 AM
So when does the next beta start? Soon I hope. I can handle buggy software, as long as it offers exciting prospects.

:D

toby
08-22-2007, 02:35 AM
I recall in press releases Newtek listed modeller tools in Layout for 9.2 but Chuck admits its a feature that wasnt very succesffuly applied..some users would user stronger language.
Which is exactly why they don't want to tell you everything they're doing and when it'll be done. Of course they're giving us as much info as they think they can to try and entice us and potential new users, I wouldn't expect much more information than we're getting, the more info they give us about the future the less reliable it would be anyway.

And don't forget about new users as far as features go too. They still need to appeal to people who don't already own LW - our needs are not the only ones they have to consider, and the more sales they make the more money they'll have for upgrades too-

*Pete*
08-22-2007, 02:44 AM
I recall in press releases Newtek listed modeller tools in Layout for 9.2 but Chuck admits its a feature that wasnt very succesffuly applied..some users would user stronger language. I wonder at what point they realised it didnt work?

it was modeller tools for the 9.x cycle, not 9.2

what has happened, is exactly what previous posts been explaining, you have a plan to implement something...everything looks good, early prototypes work very well...you have the confidence that it will not give too many difficulties and announce that you will include that tool/function into the 9.x cycle.

and then you meet unexpected problems...things you really could not see untill you got that far with programming.

it is very normal, not only with programming, but with all kinds of jobs...these things happen.

but if you already announced such a feature, you stand between two very bad choices....either you disapoint your customers and leave that tool/function for later, or you continue trying even harder to make it work...doing none of the other things you also promised to do.

sh*t happens as they say, and its not always your fault.


i have been working with jobs that are very special..if it is raining, the job cant be done, or something that has to be done by tomorow morning cant be done, as the most important piece, a special machine, breaks down when you have only 5% left to do...

it is not fun for anyone, but most customers do understand that it is not your fault, if you really tried all that was in your power to do, and took the right choices.


Newtek is constantly adding new features and killing of old bugs, join the beta and you will see....you will understand that these guys dont just sit idle at work...if they meet a wall they cant get past in time, they go for an another, equally important task.

a roadmap could, as mentioned before, tie them to push past those walls they meet, at the cost of all other progress.

vadermanchild
08-22-2007, 02:45 AM
It is a double edge sword - but it can be weilded well by other developers and with other developers being so open Newtek seem clamed shut by comparrison.

Sharing reliable info in a manner that keeps a user base locked into your product is doable. Its not a black art.

If were a few weeks away from a new raft of announcements on LWs cycle then great.

calilifestyle
08-22-2007, 02:48 AM
That thread was a bit vague, but here's the bottom line. As far as I'm aware, the only issue with the release version of 9.2 is the interaction issue where you don't see layout update until you stop moving the mouse. It's an annoying issue, but technically everything works.

Eric


well there was another link,but the point is that there where problems and even chuck said there working on it right. by what ever the case is lets say what your talking about is what im talking about, is that fixed in 9.3

colkai
08-22-2007, 03:15 AM
Truth is, as can be borne out be reading this thread, some people won't be happy even if they're happy. (Ironic choice of avatars can be a clue).

No matter what Newtek do, they will moan, why, because, as a naysayer, all one has to do is switch topics. "Ahh, yes, CA is being worked on but what about modeller eh?". ..."Ok, so you're working on modeller, but tools in Layout should of been done years ago"......"big deal, tools in layout, everyone knows the future is fluid sims and LW has never had this".

Etc etc etc ad inifinitum.

As I, many others and Chuck have stated, the software game, (not just the software game but it's notorious for it), is never set in stone and I swear things seemed determined at times to block your work deliberately.

The old "other programs do this" always makes me chuckle, because for everyone you can think of that MIGHT do it, they will have left something else out or there will be 100 that don't.

Some cars (yay car anology!) can do 200mph, but for everyone that can, there are many more that can't. (Heck I'd settle for ones that did 120MPG ;) )

As much as some hate to hear it, the truth is and always will be that ANY developer will issue a program with the features it has and will be released when it is released. No matter the frothing and renting of garments of a small minority of it's user base.

toby
08-22-2007, 03:16 AM
It is a double edge sword - but it can be weilded well by other developers and with other developers being so open Newtek seem clamed shut by comparrison.

Sharing reliable info in a manner that keeps a user base locked into your product is doable. Its not a black art.

Considering that Chuck just responded to you, and several Newtek employees answer questions here every day, I'd say you're way out of line stating that, other companies don't do that at all. I'd also say you need to re-read his post, because you've either dismissed or ignored everything he's said.

Lightwolf
08-22-2007, 03:25 AM
Are Bucket renderers more efficient or just display the rendered image differently?
They are more efficient... i.e. for high res renders, you can store a finished bucket on disk and then, once all have been rendered, read them back in chunks and save them out in your final image format one scanline at a time.
Very memory efficient, nor more than one bucker per CPU core during rendering is needed in memory, and when writing no more than all the buckets that are needed for a single scanline (and even that could be improved).

Cheers,
Mike

Limbus
08-22-2007, 03:29 AM
They are more efficient... i.e. for high res renders, you can store a finished bucket on disk and then, once all have been rendered, read them back in chunks and save them out in your final image format one scanline at a time.
Very memory efficient, nor more than one bucker per CPU core during rendering is needed in memory, and when writing no more than all the buckets that are needed for a single scanline (and even that could be improved).


And this should be easy to implement. You can allready do it by hand with the advanced camera (minus the assembly part). And isnt there a plugin out there that does exactly this?

Florian

Lightwolf
08-22-2007, 03:33 AM
And this should be easy to implement. You can allready do it by hand with the advanced camera (minus the assembly part). And isnt there a plugin out there that does exactly this?

VirtualRender... more or less (i.e. no image/pixel filters and custom AA).

Then again, buckets do have a number of other advantages but those require bigger changes to the rendering engine (i.e. adapative tesselation to micropolygons per bucket...) - most of them would help a lot to keep the memory usage low.

Cheers,
Mike

Weetos
08-22-2007, 05:00 AM
VirtualRender... more or less (i.e. no image/pixel filters and custom AA).

Then again, buckets do have a number of other advantages but those require bigger changes to the rendering engine (i.e. adapative tesselation to micropolygons per bucket...) - most of them would help a lot to keep the memory usage low.

Cheers,
Mike

I guess those buckets would also allow distributed rendering of one frame across a network ? That alone would be a great step. By saying 'bigger changes', do you mean the current render core is ready for this but just misses the bucket render code, or do you mean it would need a total rewrite ?

AbnRanger
08-22-2007, 05:05 AM
fine for stills - not so fine for animations. we continue to run test after test, but swimming is a big issue without extremely long render times.

it has gotten better, but room for improvement for sure.

probably like us - you have scenes where we have very small, fine objects and/or heavy contrast.Not to take away from LW, but it sounds like you really need to get a couple of seats of 3ds Max into your pipeline, to cover areas of need...like instancing, IES lights, and a host of high-end renderers to choose from (I use finalRender Stage 1 R2 myself), and if you have an artist there that is good with Combustion, they can work some magic with RPF files...like extracting entire objects instantly in post (using G-Buffer Extract), as well as re-texuring in post...great for showing a client different wood grain textures on your cabinets or floors without having to go back and re-render!
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=5574967

Limbus
08-22-2007, 05:10 AM
I guess those buckets would also allow distributed rendering of one frame across a network ?

Exactly. There are some Network Rendercontrolers out there that do that allready for Lightwave like BNR and Sharelight but this wont save on memory right now.

Florian

gaushell
08-22-2007, 05:31 AM
Not to take away from LW, but it sounds like you really need to get a couple of seats of 3ds Max into your pipeline, to cover areas of need...like instancing, IES lights, and a host of high-end renderers to choose from (I use finalRender Stage 1 R2 myself), and if you have an artist there that is good with Combustion, they can work some magic with RPF files...like extracting entire objects instantly in post (using G-Buffer Extract), as well as re-texuring in post...great for showing a client different wood grain textures on your cabinets or floors without having to go back and re-render!
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=5574967

Thanks, but I can't stand Max. And you really just pointed out even more limitations in LW. By going to Max it would limit LW to just modeling. We like the soft edge look that LW provides over most other render engines.

Like someone else said - I'm asking for meat and potatoes - the basics that you find in most top end 3d programs - and for good reason.

I know there are people that need the CA tools, but those help a small percentage of users. The ones I mention ultimately help all LW users....which is where I think there is a flaw in the Newtek approach. I'm not sure they understand where the 3D market is going - product, industrial and arch viz are the fastest growing segments and Newtek is getting behind in the basics that are needed for those markets. They are already way behind on CA - why focus on a small segment?

It is a business question they need to think about as it could be their death nail if they focus on the wrong area.

And I disagree with others about providing a road map that will change is just going to upset people. The issue for those of us that have to make business decisions is - what is the future with the software? I dont' want false promises, but I do understand that things happen in the process and will change - but that gets back to my original point - communication! Layout a map clearly and with detail - and tell us when things need to change or are temporarily a problem. You can't worry about the people that are just going to whine about everything.

Vague info or none at all is a dangerous choice. We provide marketing services to clients all over the country and the bottom line for their projects as well as ours is communication and being willing to shoot straight when things aren't working out. Being vague or not clearly stating the plan is always a mistake. Client Relations 101......

gaushell
08-22-2007, 05:38 AM
By swimming do you mean the apparent floating of objects because they don't have contact-shadows? There's a trick for that, apply an ambient occlusion shader to the neccessary surfaces, with a very limited range (10-100mm) and with low samples (@5). This will 'fill the cracks', put dark shadows at the base of objects, but render very fast. When using this technique you can usually reduce the accuracy of the radiosity to save more time.

I've asked for the radiosity cache save-to-file feature too, but considering how many, and how loudly, people are asking for character anim improvements, I feel lucky to have gotten Final Gather - have you thought of KRay for your animations?

I'm talking about pixel swimming due to a thin line/edge or heavy contrast. Not objects floating or swimming due to area lights.

We use occlusion in combination with other lighting tricks.

We can't use radiosity on animations because a scene can't render on a single machine in reasonable times - we have 80 computers on a render farm and have to fake radiosity - insane that real radiosity is still broken using multiple computers

Lightwolf
08-22-2007, 05:56 AM
By saying 'bigger changes', do you mean the current render core is ready for this but just misses the bucket render code, or do you mean it would need a total rewrite ?
It is more or less ready for a lite version... which is basically buckets sized render buffers and distributing the renders (the later needs a decend render controller to be comfortable to use though).
However, handling the geometry differently would be a bigger operation, not a re-write of the complete core, but the geometry handling and parts of the raytracer.
The main thing is: At the moment, all rendered geometry is being prepared by LW before the actual render starts. which means it can work on one, existing, unchangeing set of data.
If you switch to buckets you want that to be dynamic... create geometry on the fly when the renderer needs it... and throw out geometry it didn't need for a while to save memory (no loss, it can be created any time again). This opens a completely new can of worms though... buckets of potential issues ;)
Buckets would also make paged textures a bit more efficient (which is what infiniMap does as the moment - SCNR ;) ) - but that would require new code to LW as well.

Cheers,
Mike

Exception
08-22-2007, 07:52 AM
I'm talking about pixel swimming due to a thin line/edge or heavy contrast. Not objects floating or swimming due to area lights.


I hear you. Even with a high base AA and using a serious amount of oversampling this remains a problem. The only solution is to give it a very high base AA which hurts render times.

In general I find myself repeating the same credo. What sets professional applications apart from hobby programs is not all kinds of fancy features, but reliability, efficiency and expandability to be able to handle a wide variety of data with ease, speed and predictable behavior. There will always be rogue coders able to make whatever fancy new whitepaper into a program, but that's not what we're looking for. Compare a run of the mill tripod from best buy with a proper professional manfroto. You'll see that the professional one doesn't have more features, actually, it probably has less, but its made more solid, rugged with hooks and holes for other tools to slide in solidly.

So in that I very much support Limbus's statement that Lighting, AA, render speed, network rendering and memory consumption are major areas of improvement, and I'd like to add that it'd be necessary for modeler to handle a higher polycount as well. New features should be thought of in this manner, those that improve and entrench the existing capabilities (instancing for memory, Gi cache for speed/networking etc) rather than drilling into new areas before the existing ones ar eup to this level (modeling in layout).

I'm happy to say that I do feel Newtek is aware of this, and they are addressing those needs, except for the Lighting part, which has not seen any improvement to date. 9.2 and 9.3 proves that Newtek is more concerned with 'meat and potatoes' rather than fancy features. It contains far more improvements of existing features than new ones. However it's clear that much work remains to be done and that it's not an easy task.

I look forward to upcoming betas, but I am also with Gaushell in that several already addressed areas are still in dire need of some more improvement (aa, radiosity). I hate to throw the 'arch viz bone' out there again, but we seem to still be a large part of the user base that has a very old (6 years now?) and long standing list of meat-and-potatoes improvement requests that has not yet been addressed succesfully.

Weetos
08-22-2007, 08:39 AM
It is more or less ready for a lite version... which is basically buckets sized render buffers and distributing the renders (the later needs a decend render controller to be comfortable to use though).
However, handling the geometry differently would be a bigger operation, not a re-write of the complete core, but the geometry handling and parts of the raytracer.
The main thing is: At the moment, all rendered geometry is being prepared by LW before the actual render starts. which means it can work on one, existing, unchangeing set of data.
If you switch to buckets you want that to be dynamic... create geometry on the fly when the renderer needs it... and throw out geometry it didn't need for a while to save memory (no loss, it can be created any time again). This opens a completely new can of worms though... buckets of potential issues ;)
Buckets would also make paged textures a bit more efficient (which is what infiniMap does as the moment - SCNR ;) ) - but that would require new code to LW as well.

Cheers,
Mike

Thanks for this information ( and for having made it clear enough so I can understand :) )

and yes, infiniMap rocks ! Thanks for having released a free version of that jewel - it saved my ***** several times when dealing with IGS data on a 512MB workstation :thumbsup:

Chuck
08-22-2007, 09:51 AM
Chuck,

I"m glad that someone from Newtek jumped in. Communication is key, especially for those of us that have businesses where Lightwave is a key product.

I've sent personal emails to several people at Newtek (all the way to the top) and have offered up ourselves as a partner to help in any way possible. We task the xxx out of Lightwave every day.......those offers, critiques, etc. have fallen on deaf ears.

They really haven't, but your responses do indicate that you feel you need a lot that we haven't been able to provide, not only of features. And yes, some communications have slipped through the cracks. We'll just have to see how we can go about doing it all better.


I have to repeat what I said early in the thread. I believe it is a huge business mistake for Newtek to now clarify the game plan. Reasonable people understand things will change. But we have serious concerns and I don't understand why things that I've listed for years and again in this thread are not more fully addressed. I'm not asking for special features.

And you statement about "major improvements in character animation tools and in modeling tools" leave me even more concerned - lighting, caching of GI, memory issues, instancing, AA issues continue to seemingly be only partially addressed (see my comments here and elsewhere for more details).

Paradigm Productions is concerned. We offered to help give real ideas, real feedback. Not sure what else to do. After 14 plus years with Lightwave, I am having to seriously contemplate other options.

I'm not looking to xitch about the product. I want it to be the best, which makes all of this the more frustrating.

I'm available to speak in private via phone or email.

We've also spoken publicly about instancing, GI caching, improvements to memory handling, among many other items, as part of our goals for the 9.x cycles. We've mentioned them numerous times. We're actively designing improvements and will implement them as rapidly as we can. Mentioning one or two of the list of items we've already discussed before doesn't mean we've forgotten or are not pursuing the others. We're pushing forward on all.

gaushell
08-22-2007, 10:01 AM
They really haven't, but your responses do indicate that you feel you need a lot that we haven't been able to provide, not only of features. And yes, some communications have slipped through the cracks. We'll just have to see how we can go about doing it all better.


We've also spoken publicly about instancing, GI caching, improvements to memory handling, among many other items, as part of our goals for the 9.x cycles. We've mentioned them numerous times. We're actively designing improvements and will implement them as rapidly as we can. Mentioning one or two of the list of items we've already discussed before doesn't mean we've forgotten or are not pursuing the others. We're pushing forward on all.

Thanks Chuck.

I know those things have been mentioned, but I have no doubt that if you guys gave more regular updates - including saying "x feature just isn't ready for primetime, but we are still working on it" that would help. I don't want any company secrets. Regular and clear communication would serve you well. What hurts is when you say something and then wait another six months to say something else.

I know everyone is working hard and that it is complex. I appreciate it and that is why I'm pushing - I want you to be successful. I'm an architect as well and know what a large complex project brings - so I can relate to an extent with all of the priority juggling and things that don't work so well somehow having to come together.

The thing that I hope you all realize is that there are a lot of users that never respond on the forums but that are just as frustrated.

Seriously - I would love to chat on the phone to see how we can help. 800-235-3174 or 901-685-7703

Thomas M.
08-22-2007, 10:04 AM
Dear Rob,

probably this is of any help to you.

http://www.3dcreativemag.com/artists/issue024_aug07/tutorial02.pdf

I wrote this tut lately to find a solution of how to deal with the render limitations.

Cheers
Thomas

byte_fx
08-22-2007, 10:13 AM
Thanks Chuck.

It helps to get a bit of info on future features.

I suppose in many ways NewTek is in a position similar to a 3d content provider working on a project for a customer consisting of a large number of people. Each of those people has their own concept of the project's final appearance and none of them are similar.

And - of course - the same thing happens as happens with a single customer. Changes in concept are made and "mize wells" show up.

All in all I give NewTek good marks for keeping LW feature advancement going along.

It's still a great buy and keeps getting better.

byte_fx

Limbus
08-22-2007, 10:13 AM
Thanks Chuck.

I know those things have been mentioned, but I have no doubt that if you guys gave more regular updates - including saying "x feature just isn't ready for primetime, but we are still working on it" that would help. I don't want any company secrets. Regular and clear communication would serve you well. What hurts is when you say something and then wait another six months to say something else.


Taht is exactly my thought when I started this thread. I dont mind when a Roadmap changes.

Florian

dballesg
08-22-2007, 10:21 AM
Hi,

Wow a few hours without beign here and we get all this information! :)

To Chuck: I understand (and I hope others do) your problem with make everyone happy.

But the Character Animation area has been abandoned long enough. So I really hope it is your next point of attack on this cycle. But I understand as well that especially that area depends on Layouts ability to modify Weight Maps for example.

And please DO NOT WAIT to have a bunch of users shouting "What happens next?". It is much better when you give us information without ask for it. So I hope from now YOU will be the one drawning us in information! :)

To gaushell: I understand the improvements you want and need. I need them as well. One part of my coworkers do arch viz with LW. But the other part need Character Animation Tools as well.

And Arch Viz has gotten in this cycle much more attention than CA, new speed, new radiosity modes, single sided areas, it is time that the ones that need Character animation are attended too. It must be an equilibrium on how things advance. To make happy everyone! :)

Sometimes I have the impression that Character Animation implies only move a character, but what about the environments in which those characters move?

A network cached radiosity solution and instancing, benefits both of those areas as well. That applies as well to Lightning and Instancing.

So those would be the areas that I would like (and I need) addressed on a near future. Sooner the better.

And get more programmers to the team! :) Seriously all that implementations is a HELL of a job for a small group as the actual Dev team.

David

P.D: The ability to play with others, I didd´t saw that one coming, and it is VERY wellcome as well! :)

Chuck
08-22-2007, 10:27 AM
Its good to hear news that there might be news.:thumbsup:

These are the "meat and potatoes" in many clear thinking users minds - I got a feeling Chucks list is much broader. For some reason to me it seems clear the distinction btween whats import (CORE as Newtek put it) and whats not. SO If Newtek do listen I`ll just say please less shaders - whats the point of a skin shader when Lightwave cant handle large poly displaced head to put it to use on?

Sigma2, Skytracer and a whole host of things we can frankly do without while these important meaty gravy covered potatoe wedges are undercooked.


I dont think its a grey area - its fairly apparent what is fluff and what is meat. Just now our meat and potoes got fluff on it. It dont taste nice. 8)

My fingers are crossed the 9.x cycle works out for Newtek. If they dont make the advancements in the fundamentals I see LW bedcoming more marginalised.


Would "clear-thinking" be synonymous for you with "like-minded?" ;)

Again, there are customers who need improvements to the available shaders. Need them, and request them as urgently for their work as you want the changes you need for yours. Luckily the guy who can give them that, though he has a range of skills, is not the same guy or gal who can work on the memory handling issues for displacement. This is a false "either/or" proposition (a straw man, essentially), just as the "what's fluff vs what's meat and potatoes" cannot be dismissively resolved a particular way, by us at least. Of course, the users can have as much fun with that amongst yourselves as you please, though! :)

dballesg
08-22-2007, 10:53 AM
Luckily the guy who can give them that, though he has a range of skills, is not the same guy or gal who can work on the memory handling issues for displacement. :)

That is why you simply need to get more developers to the team. Now it is an excellent team, but composed of a few area specialized people.

To my limited knowledge:

Jay Roth and Mat Granger: The "render engine" masters.
Antti Järvelä: The shaders and node editor master.
David Forstenlechner: The OpenGL guy! ;)
Jarno van der Linden: APS and cameras master.
David Ikeda: Modeler Tools and Bones Master?

Those are the ones I can remember from the top of my head. So my humble apologies to the others not mentioned.

I've read the maintenance contract of another 3D program yesterday. If you got it (700€ a year: 58€ a month). You got an 8 business hours answer to any support question you have, and a 5 days Quick Fix Engineering (a patch that allows the user to fix a problem avoiding him to finish a project). Maybe offer this kind of maintenance contract to users that want to get it, will allow you to have more resources to spent in more programmers. It is just an idea.

David

colkai
08-22-2007, 11:20 AM
That is why you simply need to get more developers to the team. Now it is an excellent team, but composed of a few area specialized people.
Which means more money to be paid out, which normally has to be "filtered" from some place.


Maybe offer this kind of maintenance contract to users that want to get it, will allow you to have more resources to spent in more programmers.

Trouble is you have to get that money before you can get the programmers.

A lot is about collateral upfront, which is a pain for all I think.

For example, I know someone who could offer more services, if they had the staff to cover whilst others went out providing the services. However, they don't have the money to pay the staff they need to go out to get the money to pay the staff they need. Suffice to say, major frustration doesn't being to describe how the person feels about it. ;)

I guess the old adage of money makes money, or money goes to money remains a truism. :thumbsup:

Of course, being clever with your resources helps, having specialists is indeed handy, because it means they can crack on in their field leaving other specialists or generalists, to tackle other problems. Which is pretty much what I read, (maybe incorrectly), into what Chuck said. :)

dballesg
08-22-2007, 11:37 AM
Of course, being clever with your resources helps, having specialists is indeed handy, because it means they can crack on in their field leaving other specialists or generalists, to tackle other problems. Which is pretty much what I read, (maybe incorrectly), into what Chuck said. :)

Well I think Newtek has very good specialists. not so sure as how MANY generalist.

And a few of the areas tht need improvement can be covered by a generalist programmer, no need of an specialist.

But it is sure we know from Chuk's post they are working on the areas we want :thumbsup:

Now there is the issue of a high speed delivery on those areas! :devil:

Andyjaggy
08-22-2007, 11:38 AM
It just seems like I don't hear many people asking for more shaders while I hear a heck of a lot of people asking for better memory management and editing speed in modeler. I guess there are alot of people not on these forums who are very vocal about their needs.

dballesg
08-22-2007, 11:51 AM
It just seems like I don't hear many people asking for more shaders while I hear a heck of a lot of people asking for better memory management and editing speed in modeler. I guess there are alot of people not on these forums who are very vocal about their needs.

If you read the whole thread, the BEFORE Christmas wishes list range from:

Character Animation Tools
Network cached radiosity solution
Lightning System
Instancing
Memory Handling
Modeler Tools

An d I am sure I left a few more out of the list.

Earl
08-22-2007, 11:54 AM
I'm happy to say that I do feel Newtek is aware of this, and they are addressing those needs, except for the Lighting part, which has not seen any improvement to date.
Well technically they have touched the lighting as of 9.3. They gave area lights the option of being single sided. While I'm sure you're talking about more profound improvements (soft ray-traced shadows on all lights, faster area lights, less grain, etc) it at least means they're looking at the lighting side of things.

Andyjaggy
08-22-2007, 12:04 PM
Exactly. No shaders on there eh :) That list about sums it up. Except the CA stuff. You people and you CA tools. Jeez.

Exception
08-22-2007, 12:14 PM
Exactly. No shaders on there eh :) That list about sums it up. Except the CA stuff. You people and you CA tools. Jeez.

Yeah go animate your fat cat.

dballesg
08-22-2007, 12:44 PM
Exactly. No shaders on there eh :) That list about sums it up. Except the CA stuff. You people and you CA tools. Jeez.

Um I saw you posting before that kind of "black humor" about Character Animation tools.

I think that there are more people asking / needing them than you can imagine.

I agree with Exception here.

cresshead
08-22-2007, 12:46 PM
Yeah go animate your fat cat.

you can roll a fat cat...simpler than rigging him to walk!:thumbsup:

Andyjaggy
08-22-2007, 01:07 PM
I need to learn to tone down the my sarcasm on here. It usually doesn't translate too well.

vadermanchild
08-22-2007, 01:12 PM
Considering that Chuck just responded to you, and several Newtek employees answer questions here every day, I'd say you're way out of line stating that, other companies don't do that at all. I'd also say you need to re-read his post, because you've either dismissed or ignored everything he's said.

Ive received a bit of flak - I dont think im being blinkered when suggesting fixing the long term broken areas over creating new elelements. I honestly dont believe I hear massive support for new shaders but I do hear a loud voice eager for the core fixes that newtek themselves have targeted. It excellent we want the same result. I think my choice of language with "meat and potatoes" got in the way of my post.

I do appreciate CHuck responding - however I dont think Im alone in thinking more info could be offered.

My point is even after Chucks responses I dont really feel much more knowledgable about how its progressing and if I was at a point of leaving lw behind (which im not at yet) the lack of info about "when" we might see these significant changes to lw or how they are progrressing will at some stage tip me into switching software. THere comes a point where :hanging in there" isnt an option when your unsure how the software is going to be by the end/start of your project.

Newtek need to find a balance they are happy with. But theres definately a desire in the community and from users I know for more frequent and fatter bulletins to help themselves feel they should stick with it through sadly what many dont consider to be Lws golden age.

Its harder to win a new customer than to keep a current one as the saying goes.

I dont mean to be a moaner...as Morrissey says HOW SOON IS NOW? and his other famous song UNDOS, I NEED TO UNDO..:thumbsup:

Wonderpup
08-22-2007, 01:51 PM
I think there has been a real shift of 'tone' as regards future developments. When 9 was announced there was real impression given that truly radical changes were afoot that would result in a truly new lightwave. But now we seemed to have slipped back to the 'shopping list' mentality, and a consistant theme of pitching one group of users concerns against anothers (divide and rule?)

This is not how it was meant to be- we were supposed to be on a path toward fundemental change, not a continuation of the old feature squabble.

The reality is that Fprime was in place, and while I respect the needs of the archviz group there was a more urgent need- that of basic reconstruction.

What is gradualy driving me away from lightwave is not a specific list of missing features, but a globalised frustration that I so often find myself fighting against the very structure of the software itself.

Basically Lightwave is based on a dated philosophy derived from the idea of practical props and sets. modeler= the model shop, and Layout= the Film set. So, you first build your props, and then bring them onto the set to light and film them.

But this philosophy is now horribly outdated. Non Linear workflow is perhaps the distinguishing feature of digital technology- the creed of our age.

But in Lightwave land the non linear evolution has largely passed us by- Undo?
not done Convert a skelegon to a bone- one way trip- so many aspects of the workflow are irreversable and unmodifiable.

So it's this basic underlaying inflexibility that needs to be corrected. At the moment Lightwave is the most unforgiving and hostile creative environment in any content creation program. If this is not addressed and soon then I cannot see how the software can realisticaly survive in the increasingly flexible future being carved out by its competitors.

vadermanchild
08-22-2007, 02:03 PM
Wonderpup you hit the nail hard on the head.

Cageman
08-22-2007, 02:22 PM
You should see a park scene where I have over 2million polys. LW chokes and crashes all the time. Given the nature of arch viz, we don't have the option of using a layered approach and comping back in post - things are too fluid up until the bitter end.

Have you guys tried that scene with 64-bit LW? Maybe not the answer you'd like to hear, I know, but if it works I bet you would be slightly happier. :)

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-22-2007, 02:33 PM
I REALLY wonder what "major improvements in character animation tools" means, as Chuck stated...

Cause, what one consider GREAT Character Animation tools, would be ALL the current and "limited" tools for CA that already exist in Layout, BUT with the ability to drive one or two level 3 SubD models with 93 bones each, at 100 frames per second in the view port.

My point is that NewTek better "fix" the foundation of Layout's response while animating deformation-driven characters, instead of throwing on top of the already umber slow proved core, new *CA tools* just to please the masses that are shouting for so long and then said: "See? We gave you new CA tools". IK Booster and Bone Tools, even in their current "weird" implementation would gain much more functionality from super fast deformations in Layout...

There's no need for highly sophisticated, state of the art, high end CA tools, when you can't animate your character in REAL TIME. And not all character models are cartoon characters made from 100 polygons...

T.Rex

Cageman
08-22-2007, 02:35 PM
Chuck admits its a feature that wasnt very succesffuly applied..some users would user stronger language. I wonder at what point they realised it didnt work?

Uh? The feature Chuck talked about was way more advanced than what we, even OB-users, ever saw.

vadermanchild
08-22-2007, 02:39 PM
Cageman the feature I thought Chuck said didnt work well was Modeller tools in layout...I was agreeing it didnt work well FAOD.

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-22-2007, 02:42 PM
If i were asked, i would choose the ability to render BILLIONS of polygons and TRILLIONS of particles, instead of ANY CA tools...

And if it's too hard to bring Modeler into Layout, why don't you go the opposite way? I would be in Heaven if i had a Camera view in Modeler, so i can do proper Front Projection modeling or deleting polygons from those Real Flow meshes that are outside the Camera's view port...

Exception
08-22-2007, 03:08 PM
I need to learn to tone down the my sarcasm on here. It usually doesn't translate too well.

Whai? I'm luving it :)

Cageman
08-22-2007, 03:19 PM
It just seems like I don't hear many people asking for more shaders while I hear a heck of a lot of people asking for better memory management and editing speed in modeler. I guess there are alot of people not on these forums who are very vocal about their needs.

I have been complaining about the really slow speed of the SSS-shaders. I havn't had time to try the new ones yet, so I may or may not shut up. :) I'm with the Archviz guys on this. More things has to be done with the renderer, because that is THE biggest strength of LW nowdays, and there are plenty of things to do before I would call it "feature complete".

When it comes to CA I can not say I care that much nowdays. There are other tools out there, XSI Foundation springs to mind, that can be used as a plugin for LW, which will extend LWs lifetime for you animation guys! Think about it... animate in XSI, render in LightWave. You will then start to enjoy LW so much more, because you'll do things with it that it does a good job at. Then, suddenly, LW gets kick-*** animation tools and you'll think: Great, now I can animate AND render in the same package (LW) Cool!!" ;)

Andyjaggy
08-22-2007, 03:20 PM
Whai? I'm luving it :)

Yeah Mr. SLC hater. I'm still bitter about that comment. :D Can't say I really blame you though.

prospector
08-22-2007, 03:30 PM
There are actually people telling NewTek to keep Modeler and Layout seperated.
INDEED :thumbsup:


I don't think they've ever tried working with a combined solution,
Yes, I have..it sucked. Gave it 10 min and nothing happened..Same 10 min I gave LW and I made an object and animated it. 10 min each is a fair comparison.
Hub is deffinatly way to go.

I say stop all work on everything else, and get busy on dynamics. LW has been animating pretty darn well since I got my Humanoid floppies on the Amiga. Any animation is possable in LW as it is...tho it may take more than 1 button click, which seems to be everyones desire. Dynamics (realtime and real physically) are just about impossable as it is now. Sure we got something that LOOKS like water, but it's not physically accurate and totally real looking. Takes too long to calculate. Oh, we got floppy hair, but WAY WAY WAY off the mark for physically accurate and calc speed is like watching a glacier move. I'm averaging only 2 test a day with hair dynamics...put in numbers...calc...put in numbers...calc...go to bed...wakeup...put in numbers...calc

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-22-2007, 03:40 PM
I live to see the day Steve change his avatar... :):)
Probably, when LW become state of the art in Dynamic sims... :)

prospector
08-22-2007, 03:50 PM
I live to see the day Steve change his avatar...
Same thing jroth said in another thread :D

I would just love to get to the very easy part of LW and start animating :devil:

Exception
08-22-2007, 03:53 PM
Yeah Mr. SLC hater. I'm still bitter about that comment. :D Can't say I really blame you though.

Oh you're from Utah?

I'm really sorry.

(seen organzmo? :) )

GraphXs
08-22-2007, 04:51 PM
I would like to modeler make its way into layout, but I don't mind Modeler and Layout being seperate.

Its really no different then say using Silo and Max together, or how about Z-Brush or even Modo. The only advantage of having modeling tools in layout would be poly/point/edge selection control to be used for animation or to tweak the meshes endomorphs. The only other possible good thing about it would be having a gizmo to edit the points/polys/edges.


I'm sure their is alot more benfits like memory handling, but I believe I covered the big ones above as far as functionality.

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-22-2007, 04:56 PM
Also, i'd add to those Front Projection modeling and editing through Camera's view port. Perhaps, the longest request ever...

T.Rex

jat
08-22-2007, 06:19 PM
how about putting in new UV tools that actually let you work quicker..

Chuck
08-22-2007, 06:56 PM
I think there has been a real shift of 'tone' as regards future developments. When 9 was announced there was real impression given that truly radical changes were afoot that would result in a truly new lightwave. But now we seemed to have slipped back to the 'shopping list' mentality, and a consistant theme of pitching one group of users concerns against anothers (divide and rule?)

This is not how it was meant to be- we were supposed to be on a path toward fundemental change, not a continuation of the old feature squabble.

The reality is that Fprime was in place, and while I respect the needs of the archviz group there was a more urgent need- that of basic reconstruction.

What is gradualy driving me away from lightwave is not a specific list of missing features, but a globalised frustration that I so often find myself fighting against the very structure of the software itself.

Basically Lightwave is based on a dated philosophy derived from the idea of practical props and sets. modeler= the model shop, and Layout= the Film set. So, you first build your props, and then bring them onto the set to light and film them.

But this philosophy is now horribly outdated. Non Linear workflow is perhaps the distinguishing feature of digital technology- the creed of our age.

But in Lightwave land the non linear evolution has largely passed us by- Undo?
not done Convert a skelegon to a bone- one way trip- so many aspects of the workflow are irreversable and unmodifiable.

So it's this basic underlaying inflexibility that needs to be corrected. At the moment Lightwave is the most unforgiving and hostile creative environment in any content creation program. If this is not addressed and soon then I cannot see how the software can realisticaly survive in the increasingly flexible future being carved out by its competitors.


We haven't lost sight of the effort to make bedrock changes to LightWave, we're still progressing on them just fine. As we stated we're doing this without going dark and we are implementing new features as well as we go, because users need them as soon as they can get them. That we happened in one message to discuss features does not mean that we forgot the commitment to revising the core for a more productive and modern workflow and capability.

While we have to do the juggling act of determining what combination of items to implement in a given cycle, that's not us pitting users against one another. I certainly see nothing productive in laying the fundamental differences of need that many users have at our feet. We didn't create that, we just do our best to negotiate that reality.

Snosrap
08-22-2007, 07:46 PM
two apps are dead as dead. i find it a major bottleneck.

Not for us in our design studio. While we are rendering our latest concept we are modeling our next. We bought a license of modo to see how it would work in our product design process, our fast paced design required us to start two instances of modo so we could be modeling and rendering at the same time. modo can't do that! The renderer uses so many CPU cycles that you can't do anything while it's rendering, even surf. For what we do LW hits the spot just fine in it's separate ways. Our needs are in the area of modeler clean up and Catmull-Clark weighting to function properly, NT gets that worked out and we will be very pleased.

Cheers
Snosrap

GraphXs
08-22-2007, 08:10 PM
Hey Chuck not sure if you can answer this, but

1) is it newteks plans to have "all" modeling operations (bevels, bandsaws, magnet tools, etc) in layout as a "modeling tab" and those modeling tools can also be used for animation. Like using modelers "bend" tool to actually animate an object, thus replacing the "layout and two "null" bend modifier.

or

2) allow the users only to be able to edit/tweak the mesh on an edge/point/poly level to "fix" proplems areas, like deformation, or keying points, etc?

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-22-2007, 08:22 PM
Amazing how many different but valid opinions are out there!

I really feel for NewTek; if they manage to please all their user base, they would have accomplish a divine feet...

Now, that Chuck hinted it again, i do recall that Jay once implied, that two tasks will be in the works at the same time. One that re-writes LW's core and another that delivers point cycle releases, so development don't go dark, like Softimage did for XSI.

Can't wait for the day NewTek releases LightWave X1, as the brand new, state of the art, modernized Layout+Modeler, with all features users are craving for and then some. I wish the team all the best on this endeavor...

But, there's no need to hold our breaths for it, now do we....

T.Rex

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-22-2007, 09:14 PM
Hahaha!!
I ment feat, not feet...
Damn 5 min limit...

toby
08-22-2007, 10:16 PM
Top Ten Reasons to keep the Layout and Modeler separate

10 - Not having dead weight while you're Lighting / texturing, or Modeling
9 - Modeling while rendering in the background ( and not having two of each running at the same time)
5 - I hate modeling (ok, I'm being selfish, but I'm trying to fill out a list here.)
3 - more keys available in each program for Keyboard shortcuts
1 - if they went to the trouble and merged the apps, there'd be a he|| of a lot less core feature development for a long time. All those other things you guys think are critical? On the back burner- they'd be as they are now, but with some new bugs, for at least a year.

I think there's a few good reasons there!
I don't, however, disagree that there's good reasons to integrate, just my two cents

Nicolas Jordan
08-22-2007, 10:37 PM
I'm under the impression that if and when the development team combines modeler functionality into layout there will still be a separate dedicated modeling environment for those of us who prefer to work that way. This approach should keep all of us happy. :)

toby
08-22-2007, 11:05 PM
And what I really wish people would stop doing, is telling the rest of us that their field of 3D is the most important, and should get the most attention.

One thing everyone needs to realize is that an Archviz person is not going to be hanging out with a bunch of character animators, or click on a forum link that says "Bone deformation issue", and likewise, a character animator is not going to visit the ArchViz forum. Therefore, on top of having different opinions and priorities, every one of us gets a DISTORTED PERSPECTIVE. That's the only way I can imagine that anyone here could publicly claim that what they need just happens to be the most important thing.

Modelers talk to other modelers and hear common complaints. Unless they hang out on the Print Graphics forum too, they're only going to be exposed to modeling problems and requests, which would be the most important issues to them anyway. The temptation to think that those are the biggest issues is easy to fall into - but it is completely wrong, and it disrespectfully belittles other peoples' issues and requests. It won't do us any good to give Chuck a stroke either :^P

Verlon
08-22-2007, 11:36 PM
every one of us gets a DISTORTED PERSPECTIVE.

Of course, there is an exception to every rule. In this case, its me. All you guys are out there looking at the world through a piece of lumpy glass, but I have (cue reverb) THE VISION (end reverb).

:D

Seriously, Lightwave has made great strides though this cycle, and I expect to see more.

As for integrating the applications, well I like the idea but can accept that it may not be the answer for everyone. I have my own list of 'priorities' for Newtek. Unfortunately, they didn't put me in charge.

If YOU (generally speaking) think you have what it takes to turn Lightwave into the the ultimate 3D Application, click here (http://www.newtek.com/newtek/careers.php). Then you can see how your vision lines up with mine, and every other poster on this forum. Click the link... I dare you. :devil:

jin choung
08-22-2007, 11:49 PM
Top Ten Reasons to keep the Layout and Modeler separate
10 - Not having dead weight while you're Lighting / texturing, or Modeling


absolutely true... in theory. and i used to really argue this point too.

but the thing is, neither layout or modeler is faster than other combined apps.

we're not gaining anything.

and what you say about everything else getting put on the backburner... i think there's merit to that but there's more.

much of the features that are being requested may be difficult to accomplish because of legacy mess. if they merge, it's likely it's gonna have to be a whole new app.

no old infrastructure holding it back.

BREAK EVERYTHING.

nothing is compatible with the new app. lw original is left in a state of bugless finality that users can use for years to come.

lw next generation is completely incompatible with the previous iterations and therefore gets a clean slate to do everything perfectly....

in theory.

jin

jin choung
08-22-2007, 11:54 PM
oh, and anyhoo,

i wrote this somewhere else but the biggest reason for them not to come out with a roadmap is because while it may sate the appetites of some of the customers it is unlikely to offer newtek any benefit whatsoever.

they'd just have to walk into a sh!tstorm of dissatisfaction....

not a heckuva lot of incentive there.

jin

Nemoid
08-23-2007, 01:02 AM
I remember back at the time of 8.0 release there were some good discussion about integration of Lw into one single environment, and with a more flexible core allowing a more efficient, and modern way to work, both internally for the program itself and for the user.

As for now, i agree with the fact that a precise roadmap would look something like a promise and that users would be just too picky with the team asking many questions, dates and infos.
what i think is that having more information from Nt , something like a periodical report onto the status of developing of the app would be just fine instead. a monthly one could bre really great.

About the current status, integration, and things like that :

there's no real drawback onto having all tools integrated into a single modern environment , u'll get only great advantages, by adding flexibility to your workflow when you need em

dballesg
08-23-2007, 01:20 AM
And what I really wish people would stop doing, is telling the rest of us that their field of 3D is the most important, and should get the most attention.

One thing everyone needs to realize is that an Archviz person is not going to be hanging out with a bunch of character animators, or click on a forum link that says "Bone deformation issue", and likewise, a character animator is not going to visit the ArchViz forum.

Sorry, I think you are wrong, on my job we do Arch Viz visualization, and I remember a project where we needed to animate simple characters on a fire simulation situation on a train.

At the end we did it on time thanks to Maestro.

Arch Viz and character animation can be to related fields. Of course you are not going to animate Mrs Incredible on one arch viz, but what about walking people, or even people biking on a clean new really posh recently constructed area?

Limbus
08-23-2007, 01:29 AM
And if it's too hard to bring Modeler into Layout, why don't you go the opposite way? I would be in Heaven if i had a Camera view in Modeler, so i can do proper Front Projection modeling or deleting polygons from those Real Flow meshes that are outside the Camera's view port...

That camera alone would be very nice.

Florian

colkai
08-23-2007, 02:05 AM
And what I really wish people would stop doing, is telling the rest of us that their field of 3D is the most important, and should get the most attention.

>>WILD APPLAUSE<< :agree: :thumbsup:

colkai
08-23-2007, 02:07 AM
the biggest reason for them not to come out with a roadmap is because while it may sate the appetites of some of the customers it is unlikely to offer newtek any benefit whatsoever.

they'd just have to walk into a sh!tstorm of dissatisfaction....

not a heckuva lot of incentive there.

jin

Couldn't of put it finer myself, darned if you do darned if you don't.
Newtek seme to exists in the catch 22 of coding - I really feel for them, even if I'm sometimes part of the "mob". ;)

Doctor49152
08-23-2007, 02:11 AM
I love reading these debates to a point. Everyone does make pretty valid reasons about the future LW and what they want it to become.

Are you going to get them...No probably not all of them. If they opened up the SDK 3rd party apps could do a lot of the things the people want.

Is it nice to dream about getting them... yes it is.

Is it nice to have an opinion? Damn skippy it is! But every user has different needs and opinions. Doesn't make any one more important than the other.

Personally, I love Lightwave. I have since I first used it when it was version 3.5. Does it have its flaws? you bet! Does Maya? yup? XSI? for sure! Does it cost as much as those other ones??? No!

Many years ago I thought "Should I learn the other 3D programs instead of LW?" And I decided no. I could learn a little about all of them or more about just one. I still think it was a good decision. Yes, I look at some of the features of Maya, XSI,3DMax and so on, and think 'wow. thats cool'. That would help me a lot..yes it might.

My point is that I have loved Lightwave for years and I personally hope to keep loving it for years to come! Sure I have my beefs (ambient occlusion on each surface instead of being global!?!?!? Come on!!) But it doesn't change the fact that I feel comfortable in taking on projects I know I can do just as well as the big boys. Sure it may take me longer. And I might have to jump through some hoops, but frankly that is pretty much what this industry is all about. The other apps are not magical wands. They are tools. But tools in good hands become more like instruments I say.

There are so many hours in a day. I spend way too many sitting in front of my computer in Lightwave and I love it! But I understand that the boys at newtek don't want to spend all their time doing the same programming it. They'll do what they think is right. And we'll have to learn to except it. If you don't like it you're free to go try something else (or start your own company). I myself am looking forward to see what they come out with next.

dballesg
08-23-2007, 02:54 AM
Is it nice to have an opinion? Damn skippy it is! But every user has different needs and opinions. Doesn't make any one more important than the other.



Have an opinion it is a RIGHT. And I agree all of them are valid.

But as chunderburger says, gt a demo of other software, and you will see how much functionality we DO NOT HAVE in Lightwave to be more productive.

An example would be render passes! :) And any serious user of ANY 3d app must known that render passes are absolutely neccessary.

Year 2007 the year of fire and destruction! (B5 reference) :) And we still do not have them :)

DogBoy
08-23-2007, 03:41 AM
Ok, we all know what the problems are, and I'm sure NT are more aware than we as to what LW needs to stay competitive.

But our screaming every a few minutes about this, and our squabbling over what we need most, isn't doing much good apart from generating noise.

No-one is in any doubt as to the strengths of the competition. I really don't see what is served by the constant barrage of "Modo this" and "XSI that". We know! It has been covered in the 400 other threads called "OMG! Lux are taking over teh world!"

9.3 has been out for less than a week. Give them a chance will ya!

Wonderpup
08-23-2007, 04:28 AM
We haven't lost sight of the effort to make bedrock changes to LightWave, we're still progressing on them just fine.

But how am I supposed to know that? All I know is that the primary reason I upgraded to 9- the integration of modeler and layout- is currently MIA, while at the same time the entire development effort seems to be going into refining existing features. So,to me, it appears that the bedrock changes have been abandoned as too difficult.

If progress on core changes is being made then why not talk about it? I don't mean detailed stuff, I mean just throw us a bone every now and again so we don't feel stupid for hanging on.

The argument that users needs are too diverse to allow for reasonable discussion of the future is not really true when it comes these very basic issues- we all have something to gain from improvements in this area.

dballesg
08-23-2007, 04:49 AM
I agree with Wonderpup!! :agree: :agree: :agree:

DogBoy
08-23-2007, 05:25 AM
If progress on core changes is being made then why not talk about it? I don't mean detailed stuff, I mean just throw us a bone every now and again so we don't feel stupid for hanging on.

Yes, that would be nice. But what if progress is slow? They would be stupid to announce it publicly. They would be better served to promote work that is progressing better.

NT have had their fair share of announcing stuff then having it bite them later. We do seem to enjoy pointing out their flaws: do you remember the sh*tstorm when 9.0 came out and Fprime had issues with it? and all that was inferred from a single post by Worley on his site?

C'mon, they have just released a new point release give them a bit to regroup and prepare the next step.

vadermanchild
08-23-2007, 05:37 AM
AGAIN - wonderpup to the rescue -

Chuck does seem to believe weve been given serious info - but the fact is its thinner than a 2 point polygon.

The fact is a I was shocked at just how LITE 9.3 was. I was gobsmacked by what had been handled and what had not been touched. It came as a nsty suprise.

How Newtek responds to a request for info is ceratainly making me dislike the app a little more each time I boot it up. Staring at the problems head on everyday giving serious consideration to Newteks "trust us were on the case" attitude is not enough to stop me going to XSI.com and start the process of leaving Newtek products behind.

I had thought I was further away from waving goodbye to LW. Since 9.3 Im really loosing confidence. Newtek dont really know how close they are to meltdown for a lot people.

vadermanchild
08-23-2007, 05:37 AM
double post...

might as well say - WUNDERPUP hit NAIL on the HEAD.. SUPERHARD!

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-23-2007, 05:57 AM
NewTek will do what they want and planned to do. They will not be forced to do what we want them to, though they do hear and take consideration of our opinions.

They have a business plan to follow and their success or failure lie entirely on their hands. If they deliver what the people want, then they would have succeed. If they don't, people would start abandoning ship or making LightWave their second or third choice for work. But, i think it's kind of naive to say that "if you don't tell me what i want to hear, i will go to Maya or XSI", because frankly NewTek shouldn't care less for this, or they loose focus on the task they have ahead of them.

I agree, though that some form of better communication with -at least- their Open Beta users which are under NDA anyway, would be most welcome. Maybe a confidential monthly (or weekly?) announcement here, on the progress of things and hints of what's been worked on...

My 2 cents...
T.Rex

mav3rick
08-23-2007, 06:00 AM
i think we cant expect solid roadmap until fix in core is done to refresh lw for new code and features.... newtek did lot in that segment but there is still lot to do... not to tell lightning system is also way behind rest of 3d apps so it also wait for update.

dballesg
08-23-2007, 06:21 AM
NewTek will do what they want and planned to do. They will not be forced to do what we want them to, though they do hear and take consideration of our opinions.

They have a business plan to follow and their success or failure lie entirely on their hands. If they deliver what the people want, then they would have succeed. If they don't, people would start abandoning ship or making LightWave their second or third choice for work. But, i think it's kind of naive to say that "if you don't tell me what i want to hear, i will go to Maya or XSI", because frankly NewTek shouldn't care less for this, or they loose focus on the task they have ahead of them.

I agree, though that some form of better communication with -at least- their Open Beta users which are under NDA anyway, would be most welcome. Maybe a confidential monthly (or weekly?) announcement here, on the progress of things and hints of what's been worked on...

My 2 cents...
T.Rex

I :agree: with you that they will do what they want, but in the past, enough voices airing their concerns have changed those plans. 9.2 new radiosity wasn't expected until a few Arch Viz guys aired their concerns.

With LW I am feeling like an old friend I do not want to lost, but he is starting to show a strange abnormal behavior! :) So strange that if he doesn't change I will reconsider my friendship over my mental sanity! :(

And I agree with chunderburger, we have a long history of Newtek not copying basic tools from other software, and IMPROVING them. Instead implementing "cut down" versions of them.

Curiously, sometimes when they invent the tool, sometimes they implement it quite well. And the other apps do not take 5 minutes to "copy and improve" tool that was 1st in LW. A case I can remember was the first CelShader in LW. At that time MAX didn't had anything remotely similar.



Lets make it even better since we can see a good example and now have a reference point to work from.

vadermanchild
08-23-2007, 06:22 AM
I dont think its Naive to say that as you have watched lightwave go downhill year after year that there comes a point when you have to look at the competition.

As a business Newtek can take that info with a pinch of salt - I bet they might end up with nothing but salt and not much LW business ina year or two unless they get properly communicative.

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-23-2007, 06:30 AM
I dont think its Naive to say that as you have watched lightwave go downhill year after year that there comes a point when you have to look at the competition.

As a business Newtek can take that info with a pinch of salt - I bet they might end up with nothing but salt and not much LW business ina year or two unless they get properly communicative.
That's so true...

But, then they would have failed to deliver and they will be marked in history as an example for avoidance as they go out of the 3D business...

And then, we all would have to move along or continue to use the "discontinue" version of LightWave...
After all, a lot of people are using the old Softimage for animation, instead of the newer XSI...

T.Rex

DogBoy
08-23-2007, 06:42 AM
btw, lw and xsi work VERY well together thanks to pointoven.
the two compliment each other nicely

That they do :thumbsup:

Sorry, Chunder. it wasn't meant as a rant at you, but I'm pretty sure that NT have had a darn close look at Modo. They would be fools not to.

I think we fall into 2 camps here. Those who think that repitition will make something stick, and those that think saying something clearly, once, works better.

I'd prefer to be in the latter, so I'm gonna shutup now.

Verlon
08-23-2007, 06:44 AM
The fact is a I was shocked at just how LITE 9.3 was. I was gobsmacked by what had been handled and what had not been touched. It came as a nsty suprise.



Didn't they say that LW9.3 was primarily to address bugs and that the new features list would be short? Didn't they say this as they announced work on it? Can't blame NT if you didn't read the communication they were putting out.

LW going down hill? Yeah, I hear you. I HATE the faster rendering. There's barely enough time to make a sandwich when you hit F9 these days. Real lens camers are such a pain to work with what with all the selections to make. Edge tools? Who needs them? I can't believe NT wasted dev time on something when there was only a zillion threads requesting them. There should really be a two zillion thread minimum before NT dedicates MY VALUABLE programmers to something like that. Node based textures are just an excuse to create better surfaces. Why, once you take out all the improvements, Lightwave isn't any better than it was all those years ago. We may as well all flock over to Autodesk where the communication flows freely and they staff are quick to answer our questions with a smile and a complimentary cup of Starbucks finest... And it is SOO inexpensive too.

Really now...

Lightwave isn't perfect, but it does hold its own. There are plenty of improvements I should like to see, but the doom and gloom stuff has been on these forums for a long time. It was Maya that got bought out. It was XSI that dropped off the face of the earth for what two or three years? Every application has its shortcomings. If you think you need to look at other applications, then do it. If you think you can fix everything that is wrong with Lightwave, submit a resume to NT (and brace your ego...).

alifx
08-23-2007, 07:37 AM
we are talking here as if NT isn't doing something with our requests on LW. :)

I believe they are working on them but the problem is the oldish code of lightwave it self even it was a rewrite, it makes the developing/adding new features very slow and more problematic.

IMHO why did brad and the other guys left NT is because they didn't able to customize LW and code it without problems, the million line of code of LW was totally messy! of course they couldn't remake the code of LW in a few months or even a year... so they are there now... in their Luxology, and like they did remake of LW code with the name of MODO. it's developing fast but it still have to have CA tools, Dynamics, and etc..

so, was better for them to leave NT and let the program that has many users who love it, and make their living with it, not to loose it.

for this... NT brought a new team to continue on LW.... AND when LW9 came, with the title 'Reborn', we saw the new features of it and read the FAQ about the coming stuff in it, we were very happy, that was a reason to upgrade and continue on LW

but WAIT!.... they said they made a rewrite of the old code, that means to me it makes easier for them to give us what we wanted from a looong time..

they made the promised improvements to rendering,lighting, texturing...

nodes system was a big step right... but what about the others, lighting we still don't have IES lights, soft shadows on any type, noiseless soft shadows
and rendering also, still... render passes, bucket rendering, AA , memory, GI cach, micro displacements, instancing...
modeling also needs interactivity, instancing, and merging some tools to work with edges/point/polys.

but now look at modo,
all those are in modo except for node texturing.. also not to mention the interactive tools of modeling and the coming sculpting in 301.... it's younger than lightwave but they did many things faster and easier with their new code.

when you use it you say that what Modeler should be now!
even the rendering and lighting they have bucket rendering, instancing, IES, noiseless render, better AA.. etc



If I saw a roadmap of what NT is doing, I'll be more relaxed, but worried also, about how long time that it will take...

*what I want to know from NT is that they should think to extend their team, there are a lot of talents here and there who can help LW to develop fast... it's taking too long, and other applications are growing and coming to be giants!... I'm afraid someday we will compare LW to Carrara not to maya or xsi . . . even Blender*

maybe it will take a time to extend the team and let the new comers to know how is LW's code , but it will have and gain more advantages with the time to make lightwave develop faster and grow bigger.


that's all :P
and sorry for my english :P

starbase1
08-23-2007, 07:52 AM
Well, Newtek remain the ONLY company in my experience to come over to pond to see us here in the UK, to genuinely listen to the anorak hobbyists like me, (not just the big studios), and tell us in person what was going on.

Their commitment and passion for what they do was clear and genuine, and I was hugely impressed with their approach and attitude.

I am in no doubt they listen to their users.
I am in no doubt they will do everything in their power to deliver as much as they possibly can.
But no one without a magic wand could do it all.

I think an important thing to remember is that none of us know the amount of effort required to deliver each feature, but these guys do. They are therefore MUCH better placed to decide where the available manpower should direct it's efforts.

They know wwhat we want.
Let them get on with delivering.

Nick

dballesg
08-23-2007, 08:05 AM
IMHO why did brad and the other guys left NT is because they didn't able to customize LW and code it without problems, the million line of code of LW was totally messy! of course they couldn't remake the code of LW in a few months or even a year... so they are there now... in their Luxology, and like they did remake of LW code with the name of MODO. it's developing fast but it still have to have CA tools, Dynamics, and etc..



Funny you said that, THEY were the ones responsible to write a messy and not upgradeable code.

Lightwolf
08-23-2007, 08:09 AM
Funny you said that, THEY were the ones responsible to write a messy and not upgradeable code.
Well, the good thing about us humans is that we learn... hopefully ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-23-2007, 08:10 AM
Funny you said that, THEY were the ones responsible to write a messy and not upgradeable code.
This sounds like they did it on purpose, as if they had a bigger, darker plan for LightWave.. :D

prospector
08-23-2007, 08:42 AM
I dont think its Naive to say that as you have watched lightwave go downhill year after year that there comes a point when you have to look at the competition.

As a business Newtek can take that info with a pinch of salt - I bet they might end up with nothing but salt and not much LW business ina year or two unless they get properly communicative.

And history still repeats itself


Didn't they say that LW9.3 was primarily to address bugs and that the new features list would be short? Didn't they say this as they announced work on it? Can't blame NT if you didn't read the communication they were putting out.
Indeedy-doo


If progress on core changes is being made then why not talk about it? I don't mean detailed stuff,

They have, and quite a bit since 9, and anything more than "we're working on the core" IS detailed stuff. If they said "we're working on the CA tools core" that pertains to a specific part of LW and that gets into detail. Which also gets people mad that want lights worked on, or ones that want the texturer worked on, or in my case, the FX calculatiions worked on. And why would anyone want to give competitors a heads up on what is being worked on?

So all in all, we've been hearing that Newtek is going downhill and going out of buisness since Amiga went off the radar screen, Newtek will die if they don't merge Modeler and Layout since at least ver 6, Newtek will loose all customers and credibility if they don't give us a roadmap since at least ver 3, Newtek just doesn't listen to customer wants since at least ver 3 (I say at least ver 3 because that's where I started and have no knowledge of previous ver).

So all this ranting has been going on for years and I can still get a Newtek product, I can still make money with a Newtek product, I STILL don't have to pay for point upgrades with a Newtek product, and because I have just about everything Newtek sells, I get bunches of freebees when I DO upgrade.

I see nothing wrong with the way Newtek is handling buisness.

Verlon
08-23-2007, 08:47 AM
Well said Prospector....and grats on the upcoming 4000th post.

starbase1
08-23-2007, 08:51 AM
So all this ranting has been going on for years and I can still get a Newtek product, I can still make money with a Newtek product, I STILL don't have to pay for point upgrades with a Newtek product, and because I have just about everything Newtek sells, I get bunches of freebees when I DO upgrade.

I see nothing wrong with the way Newtek is handling business.

I do.

They are FAR too generous!
:D :D :D

prospector
08-23-2007, 08:53 AM
I do.

They are FAR too generous!


Bite your toung !!!! :D

prospector
08-23-2007, 08:54 AM
and grats on the upcoming 4000th post.
And here it is :thumbsup:
And what do I win?

vadermanchild
08-23-2007, 09:13 AM
I do.

They are FAR too generous!
:D :D :D

Perhaps they are - if they could squeze a little more out the user base - not much - they might afford one more developer - by sounds of things thats a big increase in resourse due to the small team.

Cerainly it look slike they need more resource.

But its difficult to ask people to pay for a point upgrade when quie often things go backward rather than forward. I bought 9.0 and used 8.5 for months cause of speed issues. Newtek didnt seem so genreous to me then.

So actually maybe they arent so generous after all.

OOZZEE
08-23-2007, 09:38 AM
No-one is in any doubt as to the strengths of the competition. I really don't see what is served by the constant barrage of "Modo this" and "XSI that". We know! It has been covered in the 400 other threads called "OMG! Lux are taking over teh world!"

9.3 has been out for less than a week. Give them a chance will ya!


that's the thing.. it's at v 9.3 and is it lacking ? = YES, OBVIOUSLY!! as everyone here is pointing out - don't get me wrong, I'm a patient guy and I can wait for a long time for cool features but when you've been in the industry for this long, there is no excuse not to get things done right and keep up with the latest. +don't give me that legacy code balony !! the coders should be well experienced with their code and be able to work with it and make smart changes to it and if there is a gap then hire another coder to fill it... budget should not be an issue because remember lots of us have paid the higher price of LW when it was well above 1KUS yet the improvements are still quite slow and have paid for many upgrades too.

I'm under the impression that lots of issues are not tackled simply because there are 3rd party plugins that do the tasks.

Why is it that these guys who have created LWCAD, FPRIME, TRUE ART plugs, Pictrix Plugs, Maestro can come up with these extra bits of code to improve workflows with limited access to an SDK yet at v9.3 NT hasn't with their own code... C'mon NT APPLY YOURSELVES. Think SMART IDEAS and code them and get it done right the first time.

please don't give me a Sigma 3 in v9.5, Sigma should have been done right the first time around and then you would have had that extra time to work on something else.

sorry but I don't feel some of these excuses I hear are valid.

I seriously hope you NT is/are getting your eyes opened with this thread.

Andyjaggy
08-23-2007, 09:54 AM
that's the thing.. it's at v 9.3 and is it lacking ? = YES, OBVIOUSLY!! as everyone here is pointing out - don't get me wrong, I'm a patient guy and I can wait for a long time for cool features but when you've been in the industry for this long, there is no excuse not to get things done right and keep up with the latest. +don't give me that legacy code balony !! the coders should be well experienced with their code and be able to work with it and make smart changes to it and if there is a gap then hire another coder to fill it... budget should not be an issue because remember lots of us have paid the higher price of LW when it was well above 1KUS yet the improvements are still quite slow and have paid for many upgrades too.

I'm under the impression that lots of issues are not tackled simply because there are 3rd party plugins that do the tasks.

Why is it that these guys who have created LWCAD, FPRIME, TRUE ART plugs, Pictrix Plugs, Maestro can come up with these extra bits of code to improve workflows with limited access to an SDK yet at v9.3 NT hasn't with their own code... C'mon NT APPLY YOURSELVES. Think SMART IDEAS and code them and get it done right the first time.

please don't give me a Sigma 3 in v9.5, Sigma should have been done right the first time around and then you would have had that extra time to work on something else.

sorry but I don't feel some of these excuses I hear are valid.

I seriously hope you NT is/are getting your eyes opened with this thread.

Harsh but I always wonder the same thing. Why can these single independent developers come up with awesome tools. LW Cad, PLG UV, Easy Spline, Easy Split, all the Pictrix stuff, etc..... and what we get from Newtek from 9.3 IS. Oh look another shader.

I'm not a coder and I am sure there are some legit reasons, but come one. It starts to seem ridiculous after a while.

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-23-2007, 10:07 AM
Harsh but I always wonder the same thing. Why can these single independent developers come up with awesome tools. LW Cad, PLG UV, Easy Spline, Easy Split, all the Pictrix stuff, etc..... and what we get from Newtek from 9.3 IS. Oh look another shader.

I'm not a coder and I am sure there are some legit reasons, but come one. It starts to seem ridiculous after a while.
Don't loose faith... yet...

9.3 was a regular maintenance update that targeted lots of bugs mostly; it was supposed to be 9.2.1 but while on the loop a few new cool features slip inside. Besides, 9.2 was a "mistake" in terms of the magnitude of features it got, since a lot went on under the hood for LightWave at fast paces at that time and NewTek said that this won't happen again, at least not for a point release...

Their task is extremely difficult so they deserve a little more faith and a little more patient from us all. We're not there yet and until we see the new feature list for LightWave 10, we should be calm and keep the hopes high...

T.Rex

Andyjaggy
08-23-2007, 10:12 AM
But if the whole LW 9.x cycle doesn't live up to what was promised I'm not gonna be here for 10. There comes a point ya know.

I think I am still just getting over my initial disapointment with 9.3. Maybe it was a mistake to name it 9.3? I think if it was a 9.2 patch we would all feel more confident about the future. So we just have to keep faith and have patience and see what happens.

OOZZEE
08-23-2007, 10:19 AM
Don't loose faith... yet...

*We're not there yet and until we see the new feature list for LightWave 10, we should be calm and keep the hopes high...

T.Rex

calm we are... however I think LW10 will be THE determining factor for lots of us.... I may have my wallet waiting maybe for one more time after the next 9.x release.

cresshead
08-23-2007, 10:23 AM
if lightwave's 9.* development roadmap was a road trip from new york to san fansisco...and new york is lightwave 9.0.....where's 9.3 in most peoples opinion?:D

Andyjaggy
08-23-2007, 10:30 AM
Illinois

art
08-23-2007, 10:31 AM
That really depends on the traffic on toll bridges, but I'd say we are somewhere in the midwest.

Verlon
08-23-2007, 10:32 AM
if lightwave's 9.* development roadmap was a road trip from new york to san fansisco...and new york is lightwave 9.0.....where's 9.3 in most peoples opinion?:D

Well, to hear some people in this thread, LW took off in the wrong direction and ended up in the Atlantic.

Me...I am thinking somwhere like Indianapolis or thereabouts. Some major ground has been covered, but there is still a lot to do.

OOZZEE
08-23-2007, 10:41 AM
i think thats a good point, can anyone give a good explanation for this?


+ I did forget Mr. Denis who cranks out nodes faster than anyone in the wild wild west....

Andyjaggy
08-23-2007, 10:45 AM
+ I did forget Mr. Denis who cranks out nodes faster than anyone in the wild wild west....

Yes his nodes are awesome, some of them should really be incorporated into LW. The normal cast for example.

The others I use all the time are the IFW nodes. These are awesome as well. They do cost $ though.

Chuck
08-23-2007, 10:55 AM
But how am I supposed to know that? All I know is that the primary reason I upgraded to 9- the integration of modeler and layout- is currently MIA, while at the same time the entire development effort seems to be going into refining existing features. So,to me, it appears that the bedrock changes have been abandoned as too difficult.

Why is that all you know when we have in fact openly discussed such development issues? Jay discussed the current results, stated that we would need to change the plan but reaffirmed our commitment to producing a future 3D tool set that fully integrates these functions, just likely not within the v9.x time frame. It simply is not the case that we haven't communicated these things.


If progress on core changes is being made then why not talk about it? I don't mean detailed stuff, I mean just throw us a bone every now and again so we don't feel stupid for hanging on.

Again, we've reaffirmed our direction on several occasions. If you honestly feel that we need to do so more often, no doubt we can do that. As to the suggestions that we give weekly reports of how things are going in development - no one else is doing that on more than a superficial "Hey, things are going great, and here's something cool we can show you" level. We're already doing substantially more than that. Users participating in the Open Beta get to see and use features when they've reached the level where other folks are providing just a video demo of something users will get when the release rolls around. They provide feedback and often the features are reshaped significantly based on the feedback. If you'd rather have just a video, we could consider that. Again, I feel the Open Beta program is a better notion, but that's just me. :)


The argument that users needs are too diverse to allow for reasonable discussion of the future is not really true when it comes these very basic issues- we all have something to gain from improvements in this area.

Just to be clear, nothing I said remotely implies any such argument.

dballesg
08-23-2007, 10:56 AM
This sounds like they did it on purpose, as if they had a bigger, darker plan for LightWave.. :D

I do not care what plans they got or have, the fact it is Lightwave it is still trying to catch up on some many areas, because they didn't do their job.

At the end were us the customers the ones paying that mistake.

Thankfully, the new team it is doing it much better, but sadly not fast enough.

Um about that travel, I think it is in Cabo Verde at the moment, with a few summer stops on the Greek islands :devil:

Exception
08-23-2007, 11:01 AM
if lightwave's 9.* development roadmap was a road trip from new york to san fansisco...and new york is lightwave 9.0.....where's 9.3 in most peoples opinion?:D

Lansing, Michigan.

:)

Nothing wrong with sightseeing (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71344).

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-23-2007, 11:03 AM
Funny thing is that every time frustration is rising in these forums here, NewTek comes to the rescue with major point updates like 8.3 and 9.2. People get calm for a short while, then the grin cycle starts all over again...

That fact is NewTek can do that much. We have to understand that and not expect LightWave to become anytime soon Motion Builder in character animation, Houdini in procedural modeling, Maya in customization and expandability and Max for it's 3rd party support. If you anticipate for that, you may be surprised to say the least...

That is, unless NewTek starts an official poll for all of it's users, open beta or not, asking our opinions to ante the price of LightWave or charge point updates or charge maintenance contracts, in order to get the juice to hire more muscles for faster development. Of course, they can do any of these things without a poll, which i wouldn't mind at all...

It's crystal clear that NewTek needs more people working on LightWave in order to deliver faster, safer and better...

T.Rex

paulhart
08-23-2007, 11:11 AM
OOZZEE first asked the question above and now I am bumping Chunderburgers BUMP... It has baffled me that Pictrix, FPrime, Maestro, IFW, UnReal, etc.(I have all of them) can create such useful code without full access to the SDK (why, why) while the "in-house" efforts don't seem to match up to this level. I know that you have the "whole house" to take care of, but it seems to defy understanding. Can someone from "the source" (that's Newtek) help this poor dunderhead, (that's me) to understand???
Paul

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-23-2007, 11:13 AM
Wow!
Did Chuck just comment on Luxology's ways?
Someone must have pissed him off !!! :D

Sil3
08-23-2007, 11:29 AM
I do not care what plans they got or have, the fact it is Lightwave it is still trying to catch up on some many areas, because they didn't do their job.

At the end were us the customers the ones paying that mistake.




According to Rumors (or noticeable events) the old team left LW right after LW 7 (or probably earlier) because they wanted to re-write and it seems NT didnt... so this was like in 2002... its 2007.

5 years have passed in the meantime the old "messy" team managed to get a Modeler and a Renderer out... remember that ;)

Paying the mistake? No one forces you to keep up with it, the days of hyper expensive alternatives are long gone now, use whatever gets the job done or whatever you feel more confortable with... and the old talk about:

- But the investement I already made man...

What about it? Prefer to keep crying and writing the same stuff year after year after year on this boards and waiting for ever or looking forward?

Chuck
08-23-2007, 11:31 AM
Wow!
Did Chuck just comment on Luxology's ways?
Someone must have pissed him off !!! :D

Not knocking on anyone, but it seemed to me the perspective on what NewTek is providing users was more than a little askew, given what the Open Beta program provides in terms of not merely talk about the direction, but direct access to what is being done, at the same relative point in the process when others are only providing information.

prospector
08-23-2007, 11:39 AM
Someone must have pissed him off !!!
I would be too.

It sounds like a Senate investigation that has people asking the same question but worded differently (tho it means the same) over and over for years, and getting mad when they don't get the answer they want, and getting even madder when they get an answer that's worded differently than an answer they got years ago, (tho it means the same) and complain that Newtek is being coy.


They are being WAY more open that what went on post ver 6 and they are being WAY WAY WAY more open than pre ver 6.
All we got then was "HEY, NEW VER of LW is OUT!!!" and nothing till the next ver.
At least then they didn't have to be grilled daily. :)
Also there was no internet (BBS's), so it usually took weeks to get a thread going :D And at 300 and 1200 baud, it usually took days to get a post up (and they complain about the 5 min rule now :D :D )

Chuck
08-23-2007, 11:41 AM
According to Rumors (or noticeable events) the old team left LW right after LW 7 (or probably earlier) because they wanted to re-write and it seems NT didnt...

This just isn't the truth. People make changes for any number of reasons, and if folks let it go at that rather than indulging in speculations designed to put one group or another at fault or aggrandize one group or another in some way, this would have been a much happier community for the last several years.

cresshead
08-23-2007, 11:51 AM
maybe it's about time to charge for point updates as some here think that what we got in 9.2 and 9.3 had little 'value'....if they paid maybe they think it was worth it....maya, xsi and m*d* has point updates that 'cost' the user..they also have closed beta's...so is that prospect much more worthwhile?

is it just me or do users who get free updates complain more than people who pay?
...matter of fact maybe a poll on charging for updates woud be good...if people stumped up cash the the dev team can be expanded with the revenue brought in and develeopment timescales reduced accordingly.

btw autodesk just doubled their development team for 3dsmax and maya...

Sil3
08-23-2007, 11:55 AM
Well i didnt say it was true but until someone says what happened these rumors will be "alive"... these go two ways, the ones that say the left LW in a mess, and the others that say that they left because of they wanted to re-write...

Lightwolf
08-23-2007, 12:01 PM
I know that you have the "whole house" to take care of, but it seems to defy understanding. Can someone from "the source" (that's Newtek) help this poor dunderhead, (that's me) to understand???
Well, maybe I can add my (very personal) PoV.
And you are pretty much right with the whole house. Third parties don't need to worry about that. We have a fairly stable API, can concentrate on that... and we can also concentrate on single issues... for a long, long time.
We have the leisure of having a lot less pressure (well, it is building up over here... but I changed game to actually code commercially - my mistake ;) ).
As a I said, I can only speak for myself, but I sometimes brood for days over seemingly simple workflow issues - which is a certain luxury.

I don't think the dev team has that leisure... not with the pressure they get - not only from whoever is in charge at NT (obviously, that's his job) - but from bitching users as well (yes, including me of course :D ).

Cheers,
Mike

prospector
08-23-2007, 12:02 PM
these go two ways, the ones that say the left LW in a mess, and the others that say that they left because of they wanted to re-write...
But there are also those who say "Who gives a rats patutie, they are long gone and forgotten, been 2 releases of LW since then (not counting points)".
Only ones bringing it up is ones who want to start some new conspiracy.

Sil3
08-23-2007, 12:08 PM
I just hope that conspiracy thing was not aimed at me...because I only replyed to what dballesg said, because to be honest it pisses me off when some users say that LW is what it is because of the Old team...if that was true, then I think the years that passed dont make that as an excuse anymore.

Nicolas Jordan
08-23-2007, 12:22 PM
It seems like over the past little while most of us Lightwave users have gotten really winy. We actually get much more than any Maya or Max user for what we pay and we get it much more frequently than they do. We also have the opportunity to beta test the product and help developers mold the product we want.

I think there are many on these forums who think just because Newtek has a team of programmers working on Lightwave they can implement anything we ask in short order or that if only the dev team was bigger we would get everything faster. Many of us who have never developed software or haven't done much programming seem to be very ignorant of the programming profession.

I suggest we let them do the work that needs to be done and take advantage of the open betas even more than we do in order to have more influence on Lightwaves development. Lightwaves open beta beats Friday video updates any day! :thumbsup:

brunopeixoto
08-23-2007, 12:23 PM
We haven't lost sight of the effort to make bedrock changes to LightWave, we're still progressing on them just fine. As we stated we're doing this without going dark and we are implementing new features as well as we go, because users need them as soon as they can get them. That we happened in one message to discuss features does not mean that we forgot the commitment to revising the core for a more productive and modern workflow and capability.

While we have to do the juggling act of determining what combination of items to implement in a given cycle, that's not us pitting users against one another. I certainly see nothing productive in laying the fundamental differences of need that many users have at our feet. We didn't create that, we just do our best to negotiate that reality.

I really don't know other platforms as well like lightwave, neither know (or better saying - use) lightwave Carachter Animation, scripting, dynamics - just modeling, surfacing and rendering. But for the look and feel and web coments, tuts, news, and so on, what we have at this moment it's a good modeling enviroment (not so good like modo built in - to get close we need some plugs), a greeat render, almost as good as modo with options to third part renders (our beloved FPrime, Vray, Maxwell, like other plataforms) and bad NewTek docs about realativity, Riging and other animation tools, that are far well better explained and implemented in Softimage XSI and Cinema 4D (in my opnion thats the real menace for Lightwave, loking for simplicity, integration, flexybility, cost and results). Other software are far away expensive, truncated and need tons of customizations to get good results - time to learn or a large team to work with.

In fact, in this 9 cycle I've just realizy what's going on the surface. great advances in rendering and GI, thats the more frustating task in 3D, waiting to see the results of our choices.

But I don't imagine what to expect from NewTek about animation workflow, modeling improvements, dynamics, etc. It's a great mistery, and probably these will be the next great news, something to the 9 cycle and a great change on 10! I hope.

dballesg
08-23-2007, 12:38 PM
Well lets see if I explain my position well once for ALL.

I hate lux, and they will not have my money even under torture. crystal clear?

Even with Chuck comment, the old team on pre LW 7 versions didn't implemented a good base for do the things well. And they were the main programmers, not Chuck.

Have a look to a C obfuscated contest, looks like that is what they left to the new team.

It is not only about money invested, it is about time invested with LW EVERY single time you need to fight with a workaround.

Read my posts, I think the new team it is doing well. But not fast enough. That is what really worries me. My point "DO not make the same errors of the past, learn from your mistakes".

A simple example, try to write an LScript that control the new advanced cameras. SIMPLY you can not do it, because they didn't implemented that use. For an LScript that I was doing I needed to change to the SDK and it is going to take me longer, because it is not so easy to debug as LScript.

The SDK thankfully it is advancing better. But sadly LScript don't. And sometimes for simple tasks LSCript is simple, faster to code and avoid the issue of PC / Mac compiling.

EVERY new tool that we get, looks like it is not LScript accessible. Anchor, Node Editor, IK Boost, Relativity, and the list goes on. BTW look at the SDK and you will see the tools there to provide access to Lscript even for third party developed plugins. But the "in house" programmers looks like they do not know are there.

Who design a new radiosity modes in 2007, without think the users are not going to claim for a network cached solution? Has been asked before. More than TWO years ago. Or character tools, without scripting capabilities and sdk access? Look to other software like I am doing now.

I think the Open Beta is great, but we are not now on Open Beta, We do not know what we will get, therefore the possible discomfort and curiosity.

My apologies if I offended you Chuck, was NOT my intention. You know how to reach me privately.

I love LW, and I want it as my "main" tool for the years to come, so I think I have the obligation to tell them when I need things or I found the lack of things on the program.

OOZZEE
08-23-2007, 01:26 PM
maybe it's about time to charge for point updates as some here think that what we got in 9.2 and 9.3 had little 'value'....if they paid maybe they think it was worth it....maya, xsi and m*d* has point updates that 'cost' the user..they also have closed beta's...so is that prospect much more worthwhile?

is it just me or do users who get free updates complain more than people who pay?
...matter of fact maybe a poll on charging for updates woud be good...if people stumped up cash the the dev team can be expanded with the revenue brought in and develeopment timescales reduced accordingly.

btw autodesk just doubled their development team for 3dsmax and maya...

I'd be more than willing to pay for a point update if it promised some new innovations and not mostly bug fixes !
However in this case, would there be a guarantee that dev would go faster...

by the way, who's complaining ? this is an extremely healthy debate to get a message across for hopefully bettter and positive changes.

*Pete*
08-23-2007, 01:55 PM
reading this thread...makes me wonder if there are similiar threads going on at Max, Maya, Maxwell, Modo and what ever 3d app forums.

and does anyone there point at Lw's direction and say that Newtek is super with the free betas and point updates...

prospector
08-23-2007, 02:03 PM
Amazing..not only do people want LW to be like other programs, now they want to pay like other programs.

Wouldn't it be easier to just get other programs????

prospector
08-23-2007, 02:09 PM
If LW goes to point pay then they may loose a customer which means they would loose 500 for a ver update.
That means if Newtek raised price 50 for points then 10 customers make up for the money lost just from me, hasn't gained Newtek 1 cent, just made up for my lost cash.
If just 10 people felt same way then 100 customers are just replacing money Newtek lost from us and STILL hasn't added 1 cent to new programmers booty.

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-23-2007, 02:10 PM
reading this thread...makes me wonder if there are similiar threads going on at Max, Maya, Maxwell, Modo and what ever 3d app forums.

and does anyone there point at Lw's direction and say that Newtek is super with the free betas and point updates...
Yes there are....

People at Max and Maya are cursing Autodesk for "forcing" them to buy updates that introduce minimal changes, that don't justify the price tag and they always compare with smaller companies like NewTek and Maxon, on how much stuff they bring on each of their update cycles....

prospector
08-23-2007, 02:14 PM
does anyone there point at Lw's direction and say that Newtek is super with the free betas and point updates...

Do they even allow the mere mention of LW on other threads?
I've heard they aren't as nice on the discussion board as Newtek is in letting that go on.

OOps T.Rexx answered that

Verlon
08-23-2007, 02:16 PM
and even if they don't lose the customers, what about the ones that simply choose not to buy the point updates? I seem to recall not everyone hopping onto 9 right away (or 8 or 7 or...)

Cageman
08-23-2007, 02:30 PM
I think if it was a 9.2 patch we would all feel more confident about the future. So we just have to keep faith and have patience and see what happens.

Another very important "feature" is the fact that LW9.3 is the first UB-release for Mac. So, looking it from a Mac-perspective, 9.3 is alot more than just the features and bugfixes, I guess.

scratch33
08-23-2007, 02:50 PM
Hey guys, look around you, after critizes newtek, and you will see the policy that others have.
I am impatient to see the new features of lightwave, but I am also satisfied with the policy of newtek to his customers.
I thing better and more aggressive marketing would also be better...

But...

:I_Love_Ne

dballesg
08-23-2007, 03:01 PM
I think they need to find an equilibrium.

I upgraded to LW 8.0 and Lw 9.0 due to the promises on the Feature List of both versions.

Feature lists that were out BEFORE I paid the upgrades. One major upgrade and two point versions later we do not have many of the initial feature list.

I know the team must have their fingers bleeding coding. And Newtek (Chuck specially) it is being honest trying to keep their promises for the 9.X cycle.

But as someone else pointed out, it is more useful several Skin Shaders?, or have node groups on the node editor? That is only an example.

I am looking to other toolset on another app (cheaper than a LW license, but more expensive to maintain). And except for the unlimited render nodes offered by LW, on other areas it is galaxies away from LW.

As a user of LightWave since version 4.0 my loyalty is not to be questioned.
I am using LightWave to make a living, when it prevents me to do that, I need to look to other solutions. Putting LW on a second place.

And I really hate to do that. Because I am used to the program, my coworkers are used as well, and means invest on a new software, deal with problems with the new soft, and training the people.

jin choung
08-23-2007, 03:07 PM
end of high priced alternatives?

ummmm... hello?

haven't you heard autodesk is basically taking over the world and leasing it back to you?

max and maya are both on renamed according to year... ala MADDEN2K5! disturbing? yes! because that guarantees that you pay an exorbitant upgrade fee AT LEAST EVERY YEAR.

WONDERFUL!

yes, if you want to PAY LIKE OTHERS, DO NOT ADVOCATE that you do so with lw!

if you want to pay more, go somewhere where they charge more! seriously, at that point, what the heck is keeping you here?!

jin

jin choung
08-23-2007, 03:12 PM
dball,

WHAT APP? you know you can mention other apps right? so what is cheaper than lw but higher to maintain? i can't even think of it.

also,

it makes sense newtek is pursuing RENDERING as their primary direction right now.

it pi$$e$ me off no end but from a business standpoint, a single license of lw offering unlimited render nodes is a REALLY COMPELLING sales pitch to other people who might not even otherwise look at lw.

mental ray might be fantastic but you figure in the price of render nodes and all of a sudden, you might start lookin'.

so i ****** that the character tools aren't very nice and we still don't fing have MTSE for endomorphs but it's not because i don't get it.

and i exhort everyone who b!tches to do the same... be aware. renderer can make money. you're paying less. you're paying less frequently.

****** as you (and i must) but understand.

jin

prospector
08-23-2007, 03:41 PM
a single license of lw offering unlimited render nodes is a REALLY COMPELLING sales pitch to other people who might not even otherwise look at lw.

mental ray might be fantastic but you figure in the price of render nodes and all of a sudden, you might start lookin'.

Indeed :dito:

Ivan D. Young
08-23-2007, 04:09 PM
To through in my 2 cents worth. Newtek is actually re-writing LW at the right time. We are in the transition phase of the industry from single core , 32 bit enviroment and moving to multi-core, 64 bit enviroment. Intel's roadmap is to be selling 16 core processors by the Summer/Fall of 2009. I am sure that Nvidia and ATI plan on the same. None of the apps out there are really MultiThreaded, neither is most of your OS (more properly all the little software things in your OS i.e. Calculator and such). So I think Newtek is at the right time rebuilding LW. In about two years the other apps will be needing to modernise their code. Go look, most machines do not really access more than four processors effectively (except for rendering) anyways.

cresshead
08-23-2007, 04:19 PM
re mental ray:-
xsi foundation has 2cpu's [but can use any number of cores]
xsi essentail...can't find what they have...the comparison table has disapeared!
xsi advanced...12nodes + 24 satelite nodes
maya 2008 complete 2 nodes
maya 2008 unlimited 8 nodes
3dsmax 2008 has unlimited mental ray nodes via back burner

also add into the mix other renderers such as final render, brazil and vray [which is on max, maya, cinema and heading for xsi]

cresshead
08-23-2007, 04:24 PM
To through in my 2 cents worth. Newtek is actually re-writing LW at the right time. We are in the transition phase of the industry from single core , 32 bit enviroment and moving to multi-core, 64 bit enviroment. Intel's roadmap is to be selling 16 core processors by the Summer/Fall of 2009. I am sure that Nvidia and ATI plan on the same. None of the apps out there are really MultiThreaded, neither is most of your OS (more properly all the little software things in your OS i.e. Calculator and such). So I think Newtek is at the right time rebuilding LW. In about two years the other apps will be needing to modernise their code. Go look, most machines do not really access more than four processors effectively (except for rendering) anyways.

and that's also when i'd expect to see a new app to replace maya and 3dsmax from autodesk too!:hey:

dballesg
08-23-2007, 04:55 PM
Hi Jin,

I didn't understood your post. The first part was going with me? I am not upset, only want to know wht you men with it and if it was about my post :)

It was a sad day when Autodesk bought Alias. Because everyone knows how greedy they are, and how few value for money the give to their customers. I know because I worked with 3D Studio DOS on a company before I got my own LW license.

The second I know, goes with me. The app in question (and I am breaking a personal rule of not name the other apps on Newtek forums) is XSI.

A Foundation license is cheaper than a LW one, 495$, but I know you know the XSI Character Tools. Aren't they better than the ones we got in LW at the moment? Tell me if I am wrong, because you will save me of another investment.

It is wonderful for me to have unlimited render nodes, but what if I cannot animate at the same level of wonder, the characters I need to render?

The company I work for bought a license of Sasquatch, very impressive hair render, but works with LW dynamics, and doesn't reflect or refract.

Then we bought a True Hair license, the styler it is very nice, but the volumetric and dynamics part still not finished. Sensei it's a nice guy, but he is alone doing all his plugins, I know because I talk with him a lot.

I didn't tried Fiber Factory, because when we went for the other two, the render quality on their page was not very impressive.

I mean, LW it is still one of the few apps without a decent hair system. Looks the videos on Cinema 4D hair! Even their dynamics make you drool! :(

I am a bit tired on invest on half finished software. Or seeing that the so promised features are not touched version after version, and do not try to fool anyone here, the character system has advanced in LW not much since version 6.0.

I've been looking XSI and we are getting it to complement LW.

That doesn't mean that I do not want LW to evolve and improve. I want / need it to eveolve and improve.

I still want to use it. But for what I need to use it, it is not up to at this point.

Whatever I will do with XSI I will keep it for their forums.

But whatever I need from LW and Newtek, I am going to post it here.

gaushell
08-23-2007, 06:20 PM
if lightwave's 9.* development roadmap was a road trip from new york to san fansisco...and new york is lightwave 9.0.....where's 9.3 in most peoples opinion?:D


Key West, because they used Mapquest....:hey:

jin choung
08-23-2007, 06:48 PM
howdy dball,

actually, i wasn't disagreeing or agreeing with you. i was just wondering what app you were talking about when you said this.

"
I am looking to other toolset on another app (cheaper than a LW license, but more expensive to maintain). And except for the unlimited render nodes offered by LW, on other areas it is galaxies away from LW."

what is this app? i really can't think of a 3d app that is cheaper than lw but more expensive to maintain.

thanks.

jin

Ivan D. Young
08-23-2007, 07:43 PM
Hey Cresshead, you could be right. I think thing that everyone should keep in mind is that, now more than ever we should open minded about how grpahic technologies might change. Video games are going to be the first apps to really take a stab at supporting four core operation i.e. Crisis. We are seeing game engine technology getting very photo real, such as Id Tech 5, Unreal 3, and Project Offset. The next step will be Graphics apps to take the plunge and re configure how they work. I think it is safe to say that no one has a app ready to show. Until a 3D app can do something like, use 1 core to model with, 1 core to do bone meshing, 1 core to do dynamic sims, 1 core to update graph editors and scene editors, 1 core to manage overhead, 1 core for surfacing, 1 core for expresssions, and 1 core for rendering; all while running OpenGL 2.0 I don't think that anyone has the upper hand.

Wonderpup
08-23-2007, 07:57 PM
Why is that all you know when we have in fact openly discussed such development issues? Jay discussed the current results, stated that we would need to change the plan but reaffirmed our commitment to producing a future 3D tool set that fully integrates these functions, just likely not within the v9.x time frame. It simply is not the case that we haven't communicated these things.

What has been communicated is that a feature I belived I had already purchased I will now have to purchase again, and that feature will be delivered at some unspecified time in the future- instead of within the already vauge 9.x cycle.

Ok, I can accept that these are complex things and plans go awry, but can you accept that a little more explaination and detail might be needed when a flagship feature of v9 simply drops off the 9.x agenda?

If I fail to deliver on a promise to a client I apologise for it. The very first thing I was taught about business- if you are going to let down a customer, you let them know as soon as possible and then you say sorry.

Instead I stumble across this information by accident deep in a thread on a restricted access forum. And it's more the way I found out than the facts themselves that annoyed me. It sends out a bad message, to me at least- that as a customer I have no value and need not be offered the courtesy of an explaination, just a throwaway line in someone else's conversation.

nthused
08-23-2007, 08:20 PM
I've sat by and read this thread with interest. Honestly I hope the DevTeam is working their magic in the cubicles of NT. There's some great talent on NTs team and it'll be exciting to see LW mature...or be reborn...or...spring forth from it's cocoon...

This thread is not about specific promises from NT about what features will be included and when. This thread, as I read it, is about communication, or the lack thereof.

If NewTek is going to be a leader in this industry then it needs to talk to it's users, prospective users, educators, researchers, etc... There is NO leadership without effective, timely, even disciplined communication. I'm not asking to be told exactly what is coming up and when...what I need (as a person who relies on these tools to feed and house his family) is knowledge that the team is working on feature 'x' - having success, or challenges. I need to know that the NT team is excited about 9.x, the work and visions for 10, etc.

The roadmap for 9.x that Jay laid out many months ago is great...but that information (with updated thoughts, issues, etc.) needs to be shared with users every month - not the gory details - but the vision should always be out front.

cresshead
08-23-2007, 08:24 PM
i think the main thing we're suffering from is the lack of communication between open beta's [on the beta forum btw...no here]...to coin a phrase from chuck 'things go dark' in between the beta's in regards of info from newtek on that forum area...so people start to wonder and panic somewhat that things are...well whatever they think it's usually ''half empty'' rather than half full in their thinking!

of course we just need hints no reams of details!...just to keep us '''upbeat''

nthused
08-23-2007, 08:27 PM
Key West, because they used Mapquest....:hey: Hopefully Jay's using his handy GPS

nthused
08-23-2007, 08:31 PM
i think the main thing we're suffering from is the lack of communication between open beta's [on the beta forum btw...no here]...to coin a phrase from chuck 'things go dark' in between the beta's in regards of info from newtek on that forum area...so people start to wonder and panic somewhat that things are...well whatever they think it's usually ''half empty'' rather than half full in their thinking!

of course we just need hints no reams of details!...just to keep us '''upbeat''

I've been involved with the OB program. It's a good thing...but I don't think we get much more information that anyone else. So no - the communication breakdown is not there. It's from the top echelon to the first time user that the vision needs to be shared. The OB guys are just testing stuff to help NT and community.

cresshead
08-23-2007, 08:46 PM
well we don't know what they aim to address on 9.4...maybe cause sometimes your goals are not achievable once you get your hands dirty with code trying to create it...i have no idea what 9.4 will be..all i know is that the next few .* updates will be smaller development times in comparison to 9.2..more like the dev time for 9.3....but ''what'' their aims for 9.4 is well...could be anything!...
i'm hopeful of either some bone/character tools in layout or a camera in modeler finally!...maybe some sub object handles and working grids in modeler though i'd prefer modeler being brought into layout really...though i understand that such a thing is off the ''to do list'' for now.

maybe updating layout from old code to add modeler within is too steep a hill....could be better off making a NEW layout from zero
which has a model capability within to replace the old layout eventually....they talked of modules being moveable way back so constructing a new layout might be the way to go...

jin choung
08-23-2007, 08:59 PM
actually,

i would be interested in hearing specifically what the features are that were promised but reneged on.

if i was aware of a feature that i was counting on, promised and then not delivered on, i would be p!$$ed beyond words.

jin

jin choung
08-23-2007, 10:48 PM
i guess the reason why it is safe for hardware companies (cpu and gpu) to release roadmaps is twofold:

1. users do not have a strong opinion on what direction the product should take - let alone conflicting ones. frankly, even for the geekiest of ubergeek, the nanometer number of the next fabrication cycle, the cores on a die or the architecture of those dies, and the features that such things make available is beyond every consumer out there.

2. because of the nature of the processes and r&d involved, what is announced today is pretty much set in stone - as in, what is announced today is actively being worked on. and to change course or alter is like steering a freighter ship with a paddle.

------------------------------------------------------------------

but it IS interesting to note that the release of roadmaps by these industries DOES nullify the argument about not releasing roadmaps for the sake of competition.

i don't know of more cut-throat industries than microprocessor/cpu/graphics card markets.

------------------------------------------------------------------

clearly, such is NOT the case for 3d software. or even OSs... or games.

roadmaps encourage disappointment, disagreement, argument and dissatisfaction. but it sates curiosity.

------------------------------------------------------------------

jin

prospector
08-24-2007, 12:03 AM
but it IS interesting to note that the release of road maps by these industries DOES nullify the argument about not releasing road maps for the sake of competition.

Not really, as you answered this yourself
because of the nature of the processes and r&d involved, what is announced today is pretty much set in stone - as in, what is announced today is actively being worked on.
If you are correct, and I would no doubt that you are), once you are already working on project, the competition is always playing catchup, is out later with what you already have out there.
Hardware is hardware...not much can go wrong.

Whereas software is a different animal altogether, plenty of things can go awry, giving competition plenty of chances to catch up and even pass your own coders.

spigolo
08-24-2007, 01:09 AM
maybe updating layout from old code to add modeler within is too steep a hill....could be better off making a NEW layout from zero
which has a model capability within to replace the old layout eventually....they talked of modules being moveable way back so constructing a new layout might be the way to go...

cresshead I agree 100%
I think this is the correct strategy, even If I like the separation of the 2 modules and the possibility to model" in a clean space" I thinkit's very hard to keep them separate and join, a new layout with modeling possibility(animatable) and an interface where plugins and tool may position their interfaces without having tons of floating windows would be a good start...

toby
08-24-2007, 02:07 AM
Intel's roadmap is to be selling 16 core processors by the Summer/Fall of 2009.
And IBM had a roadmap of 5 ghz processors by 2005. And 15ghz a few years after that. Shows you how reliable a ROADMAP is.

Lightwolf
08-24-2007, 02:18 AM
Hardware is hardware...not much can go wrong.
<sarcasm>
No, nothing can wrong... AMD never slipped by months, intel never slipped in their roadmap. After all, it is hardware, that means the roadmap is hard facts, right?</sarcasm>

Cheers,
Mike

Cageman
08-24-2007, 03:06 AM
cresshead a new layout with modeling possibility(animatable) and an interface where plugins and tool may position their interfaces without having tons of floating windows would be a good start...

If only ALL windows in LW were floating windows.... I really hate when Object Properties switch to Camera properies just because I select a camera. :/

Wonderpup
08-24-2007, 05:21 AM
i would be interested in hearing specifically what the features are that were promised but reneged on.

When 9 was announced, a major feature was the migration of modeler tools to layout, to the point where, it was said, it would be possible to move from modeler to layout early on in the process, and continue modeling in the layout environment. This announcement was the primary reason I upgraded my licence.

Ok, I know it's big ask, and has obviosly proved to be bigger than expected and I can sympathise with that. But the fact remains it was presented at that time as possible within the 9.x cycle.

So, yeah, I was not happy to find out it's now been pushed back to...some unspecified time. But what really annoyed me, as I have already said, is the casual (I would almost say indifferent) way this fact was communicated.

It's easy to be cynical about luxology's PR, but they do understand it's not only about technology, it's also about psychology.

Would it have been so hard to post a proper-sticky- announcement that due to technical difficulties this has occured, maybe offer a glimpse of intended outcomes and, perhaps, even a simple apology? Back this up with a reassurance that the development is ongoing and I would not be sitting here now feeling that my faith in NT was so misplaced as to be downright foolish.

SaturnX
08-24-2007, 05:36 AM
I hate to say it, but the luxo guys seem to have a much stronger sense of direction, and where they want to go.

Lightwave has been in a state of limbo for along time.

OOZZEE
08-24-2007, 05:43 AM
actually,

i would be interested in hearing specifically what the features are that were promised but reneged on.

if i was aware of a feature that i was counting on, promised and then not delivered on, i would be p!$$ed beyond words.

jin


you would be pi$$ed and I would too but at least we would know about it!

I think a simple approach by NT is simply to post a shopping list once a week....it takes 5 minutes....here's an example to get things going....

hey fellow LW'vers here's an update, this week, we managed to complete these.

- the bug xxxx is fixed, you will now be able to do this
- we now added a one way area light
- we now added more options in the renderwindow to see several previous rendered frames
- we are still working on updating the scene editor to correct whatever
- we are working on a really cool snapping system
- CA tools are proving challenging and we will let you know of any positive or negative changes asap.

More news next week !!

any undelivarables and issues can be explained with clear reasons and I'm sure most users will understand.

time to write this 2.5 minutes. - next week can be a partial copy paste of this with a few extra words attached which would save a some time.

I would be happy with this type of communication.

*Pete*
08-24-2007, 05:57 AM
- the bug xxxx is fixed, you will now be able to do this
- we now added a one way area light
- we now added more options in the renderwindow to see several previous rendered frames
- we are still working on updating the scene editor to correct whatever
- we are working on a really cool snapping system
- CA tools are proving challenging and we will let you know of any positive or negative changes asap.

If you go to the open beta forums, you will find very similiar posts coming together with each new beta version (once a week...or so)

those i marked in bold letters are not written in the beta posts..but i agree that they should be.

a typical Newtek post at the beta forums is like this:
we have added XXXX function in layout for XXXX purpose, please test it thouroughly

and then sometimes short instructions on how it works...its not what you ask for, but atleast you get some news about what is going on in the develepment of LW.

Weetos
08-24-2007, 06:11 AM
you will find very similiar posts coming together with each new beta version (once a week...or so)

concerning 9.3RC, it even has been like once a day :) I agree that the ones you mentioned need to be added though

*Pete*
08-24-2007, 06:13 AM
once a day???...at best it was 3 times in one day!!! :thumbsup:

nthused
08-24-2007, 06:14 AM
The "Roadmap" analogy should be looked at as it is...Here's our map - our goal is to get from NY to LA. What one cannot account for before a long trip is changing weather, road closures, blow-outs, etc. You know...LIFE.
The mature users here understand this reality.
What many are asking for is a weekly trip blog, if you will, of where on the trip NT is, what you're seeing, doing. This and that feature we finished with, we see this coming in the next week/month. This item simply cannot be addressed because of such and such - so we're doing this instead to cover those needs until the code is completely re-written for 10. (I don't know if they are completely re-writing the code for 10, mind you.)
The end goal is still LA. But it's a long trip - so weekly updates are necessary for those of us really invested in the journey.
MANY users do not step into this forum. Weekly emails should be sent in addition to posting here (as NT does with major updates).

*Pete*
08-24-2007, 06:19 AM
Sort of like "Exceptions road trip" thread..where he posted things he had done, had happened and what he planned to do.

I say...Newtek should hire Exception, to write not only the "weekly roadmap", but also the radiousity part of the manual :):thumbsup:

nthused
08-24-2007, 06:28 AM
Sort of like "Exceptions road trip" thread..where he posted things he had done, had happened and what he planned to do.

I say...Newtek should hire Exception, to write not only the "weekly roadmap", but also the radiousity part of the manual :):thumbsup:

Exactly - and he's VERY good at communicating complicated subjects. A good idea, but I really think these updates need to come from Jay - or at least appear to come directly from him - as, I believe he's the driver.

Ivan D. Young
08-24-2007, 08:08 AM
"Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan D. Young
Intel's roadmap is to be selling 16 core processors by the Summer/Fall of 2009.

And IBM had a roadmap of 5 ghz processors by 2005. And 15ghz a few years after that. Shows you how reliable a ROADMAP is."

Well Actually IBM did infact hit 5 GHz, so has Intel and others. The real reason that those processors are not being offered is that the amount of heat and electricity that they consume is unacceptable, so they did a rapid shift to multicore technology.:)

Ivan D. Young
08-24-2007, 08:14 AM
Also one of the very big reasons for Intel and AMD roadmaps at this point, is that software companies are way way behind the power curve at the moment. The hardware guys are making equipment that they can not even show off how impressive their stuff is because of how bad software is. That is why all of your CPU benchmarks are either encoding, rendering, and or completely synthetic tests. MS Word can't show how powerful 4 cores are and neither can alot of the software out there. Which brings us back to LW, this is the best time to re-write LW with a mind to make it fully functional to the new hardware and software paradigm that is being hatched as we speak.

prospector
08-24-2007, 08:23 AM
<sarcasm>
No, nothing can wrong... AMD never slipped by months, intel never slipped in their roadmap. After all, it is hardware, that means the roadmap is hard facts, right?</sarcasm>


I'm sure it was SIZE that was the holdup and the heat concerns
and not "if I hook the value of this transistor to this value rectifier I get this result"

The actual hardware is a known value and always the results are known.
The size, material may be new and the actual machines building the CPUs may have to be remade, but as jin believes in post, if they announce it, they are working on it already.

Lightwolf
08-24-2007, 08:27 AM
I'm sure it was SIZE that was the holdup and the heat concerns and not "if I hook the value of this transistor to this value rectifier I get this result"
Does that make any difference to the end user? Nope... it hasn't been delivered as roadmapped - evne though, apparently, the enginners believed it would be possible.
There really isn't much of a difference, sometimes things happen quicker then expected, sometimes they don't.

Cheers,
Mike

gaushell
08-24-2007, 08:32 AM
The "Roadmap" analogy should be looked at as it is...Here's our map - our goal is to get from NY to LA. What one cannot account for before a long trip is changing weather, road closures, blow-outs, etc. You know...LIFE.
The mature users here understand this reality.
What many are asking for is a weekly trip blog, if you will, of where on the trip NT is, what you're seeing, doing. This and that feature we finished with, we see this coming in the next week/month. This item simply cannot be addressed because of such and such - so we're doing this instead to cover those needs until the code is completely re-written for 10. (I don't know if they are completely re-writing the code for 10, mind you.)
The end goal is still LA. But it's a long trip - so weekly updates are necessary for those of us really invested in the journey.
MANY users do not step into this forum. Weekly emails should be sent in addition to posting here (as NT does with major updates).

That is pretty much where this thread started and what there seemed to be pretty good concensus on in the early posts.

Information on a regular basis that has some substance.

Adults and professionals will understand that things will have to change - but tell us.

Like I said earlier - this is Client Relations 101.

The answers I've seen even on this thread from Newtek thus far have been vague at best. Telling us that you've told us - obviously it isn't working well.

I'll chime in too - watching Luxology whether you like them or not - they communicate and they do back up and say - oops, too soon that isn't ready yet. And they do show cool upcoming things - that is what we want to see. If things are in the works and you can show them off - do so.

Don't we all remember how Worley teased us with fprime before releasing any real info - good marketing.

brunopeixoto
08-24-2007, 08:38 AM
Well, the question is if Mr. Jay, or NewTek, make any statements about what's is to coming, but don't get a real demo, prototype or so on, and have to make changes to their plans, wow... great diapointment, loss of credibility, loss of market share, etc.

On recent comments they are telling us that great things are coming and on the right moment they will be announced.

I am very curious and excited about this, and really want to see LW have a great and major change to better.

Some feedback from NT, don't need to be feature specific, would be great.

Chuck
08-24-2007, 09:45 AM
If I fail to deliver on a promise to a client I apologise for it. The very first thing I was taught about business- if you are going to let down a customer, you let them know as soon as possible and then you say sorry.

I thought that Jay initially communicated the information with appropriate apologies via an official post to Open Beta users, and that this post was also sent to all registered users by marketing via email in the monthly newsletter, which does routinely include a statement from Development. I could certainly be confusing what's happened via official communications with what's happened off the cuff, and if that's the case then yes, we certainly do need to get this info to official channels, and we owe you and the rest of the userbase an additional apology for not getting this done formally much sooner. In all likelihood, if the formalities have been neglected it's that we haven't given up on this, though we've felt the need to acknowledge the probability at this point. Our apologies, and we hope our users can forgive us for that oversight.

It is also the case that we try to make sure users understand in advance that things may be subject to change. Proposed feature lists are always published with the disclaimer to that effect. We do follow that up with cautions in other formal and informal communications as well, when it seems called for.

We've also done such crazy things as when someone publicly stated that there was nothing in a given release that would make them want to upgrade, that it was perfectly fine not to. If what we have now isn't something you need, waiting to upgrade until a release comes along that we do have something new or improved that is useful for you makes the best sense for both of us.

I'm also aware that Tim Jenison has personally told customers that the reason to buy a product is for what is in it now, and if you need something today that we don't have in the product, then the prudent course is that you have to look at what is available in the marketplace to get that capability today. Don't wait on us if it is going to cost your business some projects that you could accomplish profitably if you had the tools today.

We try to create and market our products with an understanding of the realities of folks who are going to use that product to make a living. We make it as completely affordable to get into our products as we can, and have upgrade policies that make it easy to get to our current product regardless of when you last upgraded, whereas some other products even limit upgrade capability to the previous edition - if you are two ordinals back, you buy a new seat to get the current version, you can't just upgrade. (T-Shirt and Cap to the forum user who can identify the product I'm talking about! :) )

I think we are developing some exciting stuff for our 3D users, but some of these things will take some time to get done. We'll have upgrades in the 9.x series at as timely intervals as we can manage, much closer to the interval from 9.2 to 9.3 than the interval of 9.0 to 9.2 (subject to development realities, of course). I know some folks will have to use other tools for at least some of what they need to do in the meantime, and while I nor anyone else here is happy at that prospect, we are determined to press on and to make the tools so good and make it so easy to pick back up with LightWave that it will be a no-brainer when the release that has the particular stuff you need hits the light of day.

Don't know what else to tell you for now, so I'll get back to Alcatraz and see what I can do to help things move along today. To all, Enjoy your weekend!

Lightwolf
08-24-2007, 10:08 AM
I'll bite... 3DS Max? (Combustion as well afaik...)

Cheers,
Mike

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-24-2007, 10:11 AM
T-Shirt and Cap to the forum user who can identify the product I'm talking about! :) )

This is Houdini's policy, no? 3DS Max also you can upgrade only from 7 and up... Where's my T-Shirt and Cap now..... :) :)


...the release that has the particular stuff you need...

I'd eat a cat or two, to know what that stuff is...... :devil:

art
08-24-2007, 10:18 AM
I'd eat a cat or two, to know what that stuff is...... :devil:
May I suggest Andyjaggy's cat? One will be sufficient

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-24-2007, 10:19 AM
That's one BIG cat! :)

Limbus
08-24-2007, 10:24 AM
(T-Shirt and Cap to the forum user who can identify the product I'm talking about! :) )


Maya.

Florian

Limbus
08-24-2007, 10:25 AM
I'll bite... 3DS Max? (Combustion as well afaik...)


Try Edit :devil:

dballesg
08-24-2007, 10:26 AM
Our apologies, and we hope our users can forgive us for that oversight.

Hi,

Difficult to regain someones trust when something like this happened. But you know it will be your Damocles sword if it happens again. I hope you put the adequate measures in the future to keep us better informed. So from my part, it is best to forget it and move on with my work.



It is also the case that we try to make sure users understand in advance that things may be subject to change. Proposed feature lists are always published with the disclaimer to that effect. We do follow that up with cautions in other formal and informal communications as well, when it seems called for.

So I hope you will tell us soon were are you working on that it is so exciting on the proper Open Beta channels and under the NDA, maybe?



I'm also aware that Tim Jenison has personally told customers that the reason to buy a product is for what is in it now, and if you need something today that we don't have in the product, then the prudent course is that you have to look at what is available in the marketplace to get that capability today. Don't wait on us if it is going to cost your business some projects that you could accomplish profitably if you had the tools today.

Yeah, I will like to buy a Buggatti Verion instead of a SEAT, but you know, budget sometimes limits your options :) BTW I love Tim´s helicopter! :)



I think we are developing some exciting stuff for our 3D users, but some of these things will take some time to get done. We'll have upgrades in the 9.x series at as timely intervals as we can manage, much closer to the interval from 9.2 to 9.3 than the interval of 9.0 to 9.2 (subject to development realities, of course). I know some folks will have to use other tools for at least some of what they need to do in the meantime, and while I nor anyone else here is happy at that prospect, we are determined to press on and to make the tools so good and make it so easy to pick back up with LightWave that it will be a no-brainer when the release that has the particular stuff you need hits the light of day.

I think is a question as well that the NEW tools that you introduce are consistent with the interface, interactivity, and script possibilities of the program.

Enjoy your weekend as well Chuck.

Best regards,
David

Lightwolf
08-24-2007, 10:27 AM
Try Edit :devil:
The single most reason for me not to purchase from Autodesk... we still have one sitting here :D
(didn't stop me from joining the dev network, but I get paid for that).

Cheers,
Mike