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Titus
08-24-2007, 11:03 AM
I'll bite... 3DS Max? (Combustion as well afaik...)

Cheers,
Mike

You could try to upgrade Combustion, but they first have to program an upgrade :D.

Chuck
08-24-2007, 11:08 AM
Maya.

Florian

That's the one I was thinking of! Send me your t-shirt size and shipping info by PM, and I'll get the goods on the way!

As for the others mentioned - guys, if you are right, I see no reason not to send out a few more caps and T's. If the first person to mention an app will post info that confirms the policy, I'll get goodies on the way to you as well!

Titus
08-24-2007, 11:20 AM
Chuck:

http://www.autodesk.co.uk/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=452932&id=7556697


"Save Big on Autodesk« Maya« with Platinum Membership

Until 28 July 2006, upgrade to Autodesk Maya 7 software with Platinum Membership and save 30% on the upgrade price.*

Customers on versions 5 or earlier:
To welcome you to the Autodesk family, we are extending a one time opportunity to upgrade your Maya softwareŚno matter what version you're currently using!

Take advantage of this limited time offer."

creativecontrol
08-24-2007, 11:24 AM
Chuck, I think you guys are doing great work. You can never please everyone. I find 9.3 much better than any previous version with many useful features and a lot of nasty bugs gone.

I think if you can keep up the great pace, LW will be truly compeditive with anything in a couple years.

The extreme complexity of such a program obviously has an impact on how quickly certain things can be done.

Keep up the good work!!! :thumbsup:

byte_fx
08-24-2007, 12:01 PM
Chuck -

Thanks for the info on more frequent updates.

That seems to be better than delaying an update because one planned feature isn't ready.

9.3's single sided area lights comes to mind. That's a handy feature that will a lot users work flow a bit more streamlined.

Glad it wan't delayed while something else was fine tuned.

byte_fx

Lightwolf
08-24-2007, 12:14 PM
As for the others mentioned - guys, if you are right, I see no reason not to send out a few more caps and T's. If the first person to mention an app will post info that confirms the policy, I'll get goodies on the way to you as well!
Allright, let's see (actually, a nice quest to check out how other vendors handle licensing):

3DSMax Legacy Program to update to the current version
A: Customers with valid licenses of 3ds Max version 3 or 4 are eligible to participate in the Legacy Program.
(Note: This only gets you a 30% discount on a new version, technically it isn't an upgrade)
Currently you can upgrade from 7.x and 8.x to 9.x only (online) - if you purchase the subscription you get 2008 when it is released. Didn't find any info on 5.x and 6.x

Maya
Couldn't find a lot of information easily... except for upgrades from 7.x to 8.5.
No on-line purchase options available over here across the pond (this is true for all of Autodesk)
Edit: there is of course also Titus link...

Cinema4D
Only upgrades from 8.0 and higher to the current 10.x available.

Houdini
"The upgrade price on the price chart applies if you are one version back. Please contact us if you want to upgrade software that is older than that." for version 8.2
For an upgrade to 9.0 you need to be on the Annual Upgrade Plan

XSI
Couldn't find any details - and I ain't gonna call a dealer either.

Mind you, I think in most cases a decent dealer can help you out, you're probably only in a bad fix with old Max versions, since these have been explicitly killed.

Back to your scheduled programme now...

Cheers,
Mike

Chuck
08-24-2007, 12:49 PM
Ok, so Limbus, LightWolf, Gregg, and Titus, PM me your info for shipping and t-sizes! :)

*Pete*
08-24-2007, 01:09 PM
Chuck, the forum Firefighter :)

hey, when you going to start up with 9.4 beta??

and...ahem, what will it focus on mainly? ;)

Wonderpup
08-24-2007, 02:49 PM
I thought that Jay initially communicated the information with appropriate apologies via an official post to Open Beta users, and that this post was also sent to all registered users by marketing via email in the monthly newsletter, which does routinely include a statement from Development. I could certainly be confusing what's happened via official communications with what's happened off the cuff, and if that's the case then yes, we certainly do need to get this info to official channels, and we owe you and the rest of the userbase an additional apology for not getting this done formally much sooner. In all likelihood, if the formalities have been neglected it's that we haven't given up on this, though we've felt the need to acknowledge the probability at this point. Our apologies, and we hope our users can forgive us for that oversight.

Hi chuck,

Thanks for the clarification. None of the official stuff came my way, so the first I knew was a response from Jay to another poster's question, which did seem a very off the cuff way of dealing with it, hence my being annoyed.

Like most people here I appreciate things at present are not easy and have been prepared to wait it out. I think a little more info on current developments would be good thing, and would mitigate the impact even of negative stuff- at least we would see it coming.

Luxology, in my opionion, have performed a neat trick and converted their users into fellow conspiritors, who follow the development process, both it's highs and lows, as comrades in arms rather than as passive, often disgrunteled, spectators. I don't think the open beta at present achieves this-and is also devisive in that it excludes those who have not yet upgraded.

Personally I think the benefits of an official weekly event to discuss current stuff would far outweigh any disadvantages. Lux's brotherhood may indeed be something of an illusion, but it is effective.

Limbus
08-25-2007, 05:41 AM
The single most reason for me not to purchase from Autodesk... we still have one sitting here :D
(didn't stop me from joining the dev network, but I get paid for that).

Cheers,
Mike

Hehe, I know. Thats why I added the devil smiley ;-)

Limbus
08-25-2007, 05:43 AM
That's the one I was thinking of! Send me your t-shirt size and shipping info by PM, and I'll get the goods on the way!

As for the others mentioned - guys, if you are right, I see no reason not to send out a few more caps and T's. If the first person to mention an app will post info that confirms the policy, I'll get goodies on the way to you as well!

Great, you have a private message.

:)

Florian

haba˝ero
08-26-2007, 08:53 AM
What about progress on Lscript? Will there be edges, and a way to figure out what selection mode is active? What about access to modeler tools?

Nicolas Jordan
08-26-2007, 09:25 AM
What about progress on Lscript? Will there be edges, and a way to figure out what selection mode is active? What about access to modeler tools?

From what I understand edges are not fully implemented as true edges yet since they simply use the points in the edge selection to perform many tasks. I am guessing we will likely see more work on these things soon. I don't think it would make much sense to update L-Script until some of the features have been completely developed and implemented. I'm sure L-Script will get improved soon as well since I also remember reading something about the dev team having ideas to improve it.

Kuzey
08-26-2007, 09:27 AM
Chuck,

Got any pics of this so called cap and t-shirt...I presume it's LW 9.X and not the old ones :D

Kuzey

SaturnX
08-26-2007, 02:37 PM
... Luckily the guy who can give them that, though he has a range of skills, is not the same guy or gal who can work on the memory handling issues for displacement...

Hi, i need to chime in here... are you saying Chuck, that memory handling issues in regards to object displacement (IE: Zbrush work) is indeed being worked on, and it might be implemented into layout in the foreseeable future?

I currently can't render beyond 2.2 million polys on my lightwave rendered characters, via zbrush displacements, due to annoying out of memory errors.
Not being able to render the characters created, fully in layout (for animation purposes also) is very stressing !
If memory handling of object displacements is getting looked at as we speak... then that is good news indeed!

vadermanchild
08-26-2007, 04:34 PM
are you saying Chuck, that memory handling issues in regards to object displacement (IE: Zbrush work) is indeed being worked on, and it might be implemented into layout in the foreseeable future?

As Hong Kong Phooey would say "COULD BE!!"

Now This function would be worth a point upgrade for LW.

I didnt even pick up on Chuck mentioning this it was so subtly done.

Andyjaggy
08-26-2007, 05:52 PM
I wonder if the editing speed in modeler and the memory handling in layout are related?

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-26-2007, 05:54 PM
I bet they are not...

Andyjaggy
08-26-2007, 06:04 PM
Probably not if they were though Newtek could kill to big birds with one stone.

SaturnX
08-27-2007, 06:49 AM
I wonder if the editing speed in modeler and the memory handling in layout are related?
Im not a programmer, but i suspect, despite the updated openGL etc... the old modeling tools are blind to all the new 'under the hood' changes...


..

toby
08-27-2007, 11:15 PM
Hi, i need to chime in here... are you saying Chuck, that memory handling issues in regards to object displacement (IE: Zbrush work) is indeed being worked on, and it might be implemented into layout in the foreseeable future?

I currently can't render beyond 2.2 million polys on my lightwave rendered characters, via zbrush displacements, due to annoying out of memory errors.
Not being able to render the characters created, fully in layout (for animation purposes also) is very stressing !
If memory handling of object displacements is getting looked at as we speak... then that is good news indeed!
Not sure about *displacement* polygons, but LW normally handles 4 million polys pretty well. Unless you have 500mb of textures - hey, speaking of which, if you're using any JPGs in your scene, get rid of them; replace them with PNG, 8-bit where possible, and you'll get less memory errors and render more polys. I've done up to 5 million, even more in OSX.

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-28-2007, 01:23 AM
As it stands now, Layout needs RAM to handle displacement polygons. The more RAM you have, the more you can displace.

In the early days of 9.0, with 8 gigs of RAM, i could get as far as 10 million displaced polygons with 32bit version and 22 million with the 64bit version of Layout. That's about the same limit Layout can handle non-displaced high rez 3D scanned polygonal models.

And with XSI's Mental Ray you can render a billion polygons with just 2 gigs of RAM, without problems, swapping or delays... :(

T.Rex

jin choung
08-28-2007, 01:36 AM
probably optimizing...

you are absolutely not going to see billions of polys (HxW of your screen res nets you how many pixels you are capable of seeing... e.g. 1920x1080 = only 2,073,600).

so they're probably finding a way to intelligently subdivide so you have a poly per pixel or 2x or 4x or some other reasonable multiple of detail per pixel.

certainly not rendering out a billion polys of detail that you're never going to see.

yah, optimization and cool render tricks to squeeze out performance would be cool.

but they're probably doing bucket rendering and culling and reyes kinda stuff. we don't do that.

jin

vadermanchild
08-28-2007, 01:47 AM
probably optimizing...


so they're probably finding a way to intelligently subdivide so you have a poly per pixel or 2x or 4x or some other reasonable multiple of detail per pixel.

jin

And if they do do that then FPrime must surely be left up shiet street.?? I cant see it being handled by prfime as it stands....and development of frpim is slower than newteks and only breaks any silence around what seems like two days before a release..

Im moving on to other software if newteks solutions results in making fprime a legacy type plugin that cant keepup with these sort of chanes due to them methods empluyed. Fprim is the single thing that holds me to LW now - break its usefullness in a large way and wave good bye to a lot of the user base.

jin choung
08-28-2007, 01:49 AM
oh, but in case it needs to be said, lw has really nice renders with infinite render nodes... so take that mental ray.

jin

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-28-2007, 01:53 AM
probably optimizing...

you are absolutely not going to see billions of polys (HxW of your screen res nets you how many pixels you are capable of seeing... e.g. 1920x1080 = only 2,073,600).

so they're probably finding a way to intelligently subdivide so you have a poly per pixel or 2x or 4x or some other reasonable multiple of detail per pixel.

certainly not rendering out a billion polys of detail that you're never going to see.

yah, optimization and cool render tricks to squeeze out performance would be cool.

but they're probably doing bucket rendering and culling and reyes kinda stuff. we don't do that.

jin
Even with 3 million pixels for a 2K image, you still need your renderer to handle more polygons than what is displays at any given frame, in order to do consistent animations without hiccups or "boiling" geometry from frame to frame. This is were you need sub-pixels; 2 or 4 times a pixel is way low. You''ll need more than that, like 128 or 256 sub-pixels iterations for rock-solid animations. And if you multiply the 3 million pixels with 256, you'll see how many polygons you need your renderer to handle properly...

The billion count can easily achieved this way. Bucket rendering is probably the only way to go for the renderer, where each finished bucket gets unload from memory and cached on disk, before the renderer goes to another...

T.Rex

toby
08-28-2007, 01:56 AM
And with XSI's Mental Ray you can render a billion polygons with just 2 gigs of RAM, without problems, swapping or delays... :(

Just don't turn on motion blur!

dballesg
08-28-2007, 02:50 AM
oh, but in case it needs to be said, lw has really nice renders with infinite render nodes... so take that mental ray.

jin

That is the problem with MR, they charge for extra nodes.

Sadly LW has that covered on a much cheaper way for us, but you can try to sent heavy scenes to LW and sometimes they fail miserably (even 64 bits), so what is the use of infinite nodes if you can not render your work?

David

toby
08-28-2007, 02:55 AM
What's the use of rendering heavy scenes well, if you can only afford 2 render nodes?

You can split the scenes in LW, most of us have done it, it sucks, but such is life on the poor side of town :D

Andyjaggy
08-28-2007, 08:38 AM
Major assumption on your part! I assume they'll lose more of their user base if they don't advance LightWave's renderer.

How can you say that you'll abandon LightWave if it advances beyond what FPrime can handle? That makes no sense at all. FPrime would probably continue to work as it does now, but it's hardly NewTek's fault if FPrime's technology can't keep up with some of the requirements of today.

It would be up to Worley to keep pace. Not for NewTek to keep everything doable in FPrime. It's simply not possible as it works now. You can't expect FPrime do keep doing everything that LW does.

This just shows that NewTek can't "win". Because people want different things, some for very odd reasons.

I couldn't care less about FPrime if LightWave got bucket rendering and true micropoly displacement.

Do you really think that NewTek should stop advancing their renderer to keep legacy compatibility with a hack like FPrime? FPrime needs all it's geometry in memory, just like LightWave currently does. This is a major technological limitation and it's outdated for highres displacement work. Let's not advocate stopping progress to stay in the past.

Who says that FPrime still wouldn't be usable as a previewer/renderer anyway? It most certainly just wouldn't work with an updated, bucket renderer based displacement system, but I don't see why it wouldn't continue to work as it does now, within the limitations it's technology confines it to.

Yes. Totally agree. Is Newtek not supposed to update and improve their software just because Steve Worley may not be able to keep up? We all love F-prime but I would rather see large fundamental improvements to LW then small dinky ones just so we can keep F-Prime compatability.

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-28-2007, 09:01 AM
Besides, if FPrime would stop work completely with LW10, whoever want to use it, he/she could still use it with LW9, until Worley updates it; the ball would be in his court then, though i'm sure he won't have any problems keeping up.... :)

vadermanchild
08-28-2007, 12:38 PM
My point was I hear no news that LW is going to delivery a preview style renderer like FPrime anytime soon. In fact does newek have an unwritten policy where they dont develop similar features? It seems likethat way soemtimes.

with Fprime development so slow when LW does eventually handle high polys properly Fprime probably will not (I guess) handle the function due to the nature of how frpime gets its gemotry data.

For me Fprime is a major reason to stick with LW.

As soon as I look at LWs renderer without Fprime i have to consider other renderers.

Without Fprime I think LW would not have kept a lot of the users it has over the last few years.

Im not saying dont develop - im saying a result of not having a fprime type renderer using these new features will negatively impact my view of LW considerably.

Nicolas Jordan
08-28-2007, 12:43 PM
I have to say it would surprise me greatly if Newtek made thier own FPrime style renderer for Lightwave other than improving on the existing Viper previewer.

Lightwolf
08-28-2007, 01:06 PM
In fact does newek have an unwritten policy where they dont develop similar features?
Nope, and why should they? There's a few examples were new functionality competed with third party stuff (which usually results in the third party either dropping their product or massively enhancing it). We, for example, already know that HDInstance will be obsolete during the 9.x cycle, just as there is less of a reason to even look at exrTrader. Dynamic Realities particle and hard bodies are another example.

Cheers,
Mike

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-28-2007, 01:39 PM
Steve Worley make and continue to make crap loads of money from F-Prime only. We already established, that NewTek dev team and he, work closely together, so it's only natural for him to follow along the progress of LightWave. They both are dependent to each other, as i doubt NewTek or anybody else can "re-make" F-Prime, without a hundred cpus/cores underneath to support that and Worley would be crazy not updating FPrime for any version of LightWave...

So, people... Relax and go back to work... :)

T.Rex

Ivan D. Young
08-28-2007, 05:54 PM
I am all for LW development to continue unabated, with all speed! I think that the Plug in manufactures are very smart people and if and when LW progresses beyond some tool that they wrote. They will probably figure out how to write some other tool that we can not live without. It happens every day. So go LW team, Go, Go on to Victory, Go on to Kansas, Go on to Texas, Go onto Iowa, Go on to YYEEAAAH!!!:2guns:


Oops you know what I mean.

kfinla
08-29-2007, 06:09 AM
I've been grazing through this thread mostly reading the conversation between Wonderpup and Chuck for the last couple pages.

As a registered user on netweks mailing list with access to the beta.. I'm just finding out now that some of the features planned for the 9.x cycle are now pushed back to 10.x ... I have not read anything in newsletters from Jay etc.

2nd, I see what Chuck is sayin about access to a public beta having more "depth" then say modo's podcasts and pics/vids every week. BUT! I would say that what Luxology is doing is far more effective.

a) Anyone has access to this information, dont think u even need to be a member of the forum to hear and see a glimspe of whats on the horizon. Where as with newtek i need to own lightwave and apply to get beta access.

b) Newtek may spit out builds every couple days but I personally don't use them, I just read what has been fixed, and what is outstanding and wait for stable point releases. I'm looking for info. The pictures, video's and voice of Luxology even if half the time they are about buying flowers for the wife or Brad's kids new bubble maker puts a face and adds a tangabilty between the users and the deveolpers. Newtek is very faceless in this regard. The frequency of contact with the community I think out weights the depth of the messages.. at least I would say it is much more effective than having users check up every 6 months to see if anything is new.

Just my thoughts, Ken

kfinla
08-29-2007, 06:22 AM
If I need a feature, or the current version in Lightwave is not good enough chances are I will look elsewhere for a solution if I know I wont hear anything for months at a time. If I know it is being worked on chances are I will wait it out.

I also think the frequency of communication also perpetuates the feeling that development is happening fast or slow. It feels like something shiny and new has been added each week, versus reading *rendering bug squashed x3 over a week at the bottom of a page long text doc. We only really "see" the new features in newletters (which only hit a small group) and with actual releases. Again this is mostly about perception.

cresshead
08-29-2007, 06:23 AM
Just don't turn on motion blur!

in regards to Mental Ray...VERY true!..i simply can't afford to use motion blur
on one of my interior scenes....it'll take faaar tooo long to render with my
current pc...mind you i dno't fully understand MR and how to tweek it in that regard as yet...

kfinla
08-29-2007, 06:29 AM
Newtek may be delivering fillet mignon, but u have to be a VIP and really dig and fast for long periods.. users with a constantly full belly of salsberry steak seem to be happy. I'm not suggesting newtek stop what its doing at all with he public beta etc.. its good.. just perhaps suppliment it with more frequent fluff for the masses.

Sil3
08-29-2007, 07:55 AM
in regards to Mental Ray...VERY true!..i simply can't afford to use motion blur
on one of my interior scenes....it'll take faaar tooo long to render with my
current pc...mind you i dno't fully understand MR and how to tweek it in that regard as yet...


Theres really not much you can do about it...unless having a bazilion CPUS on a render farm hehehe...yeah MRay MBlur looks wonderfull but the time it takes to render makes it almost useless for most of us with small farms... Post Mblur is the only way...or Fprime in LW :D

MRay Mblur and Displaces is a NO NO combination also

Andyjaggy
08-29-2007, 08:24 AM
If I need a feature, or the current version in Lightwave is not good enough chances are I will look elsewhere for a solution if I know I wont hear anything for months at a time. If I know it is being worked on chances are I will wait it out.

I also think the frequency of communication also perpetuates the feeling that development is happening fast or slow. It feels like something shiny and new has been added each week, versus reading *rendering bug squashed x3 over a week at the bottom of a page long text doc. We only really "see" the new features in newletters (which only hit a small group) and with actual releases. Again this is mostly about perception.

Me as well, I usually don't want to be bothered with the OB version and just wait for the final point release. Except in 9.2 where I really wanted the new features so I did the OB thing.

cresshead
08-29-2007, 08:57 AM
They both are dependent to each other, as i doubt NewTek or anybody else can "re-make" F-Prime, without a hundred cpus/cores underneath to support that and Worley would be crazy not updating FPrime for any version of LightWave...

So, people... Relax and go back to work... :)

T.Rex

maya already has a plugin fprime style renderer in open free beta...it's also slated for 3dsmax and xsi...someone saw fprime and made their version...so why couln't newtek do the same if they really put their minds to it.

Lightwolf
08-29-2007, 09:03 AM
...so why couln't newtek do the same if they really put their minds to it.
Well, for one FPrime already exists on LW afaik ;) And it costs less than a Maya or Max support contract as well :D

Cheers,
Mike

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-29-2007, 01:37 PM
maya already has a plugin fprime style renderer in open free beta...it's also slated for 3dsmax and xsi...someone saw fprime and made their version...so why couln't newtek do the same if they really put their minds to it.
I've seen them and also that Renderman real time previewer. None of them render as fast as Fprime, only perhaps Renderman, but with 100+ clustered cpus bonded together. Besides, as much as "limited" we could say Fprime is, by not seeing some of Layout's options, the other real time previewers, especially Maya's, don't "see" a huge part of your scene, like a lot of MR nodes and other components; they are lucky they can see shadows and reflections...

What Worley did with FPrime's coding is phenomenal and it's not an easy task for anyone to replicate...

T.Rex

vadermanchild
08-29-2007, 02:36 PM
I've been grazing through this thread mostly reading the conversation between Wonderpup and Chuck for the last couple pages.

As a registered user on netweks mailing list with access to the beta.. I'm just finding out now that some of the features planned for the 9.x cycle are now pushed back to 10.x ... I have not read anything in newsletters from Jay etc.

2nd, I see what Chuck is sayin about access to a public beta having more "depth" then say modo's podcasts and pics/vids every week. BUT! I would say that what Luxology is doing is far more effective.

a) Anyone has access to this information, dont think u even need to be a member of the forum to hear and see a glimspe of whats on the horizon. Where as with newtek i need to own lightwave and apply to get beta access.

b) Newtek may spit out builds every couple days but I personally don't use them, I just read what has been fixed, and what is outstanding and wait for stable point releases. I'm looking for info. The pictures, video's and voice of Luxology even if half the time they are about buying flowers for the wife or Brad's kids new bubble maker puts a face and adds a tangabilty between the users and the deveolpers. Newtek is very faceless in this regard. The frequency of contact with the community I think out weights the depth of the messages.. at least I would say it is much more effective than having users check up every 6 months to see if anything is new.

Just my thoughts, Ken

Well said

Chuck
08-29-2007, 03:21 PM
I've been grazing through this thread mostly reading the conversation between Wonderpup and Chuck for the last couple pages.

As a registered user on netweks mailing list with access to the beta.. I'm just finding out now that some of the features planned for the 9.x cycle are now pushed back to 10.x ... I have not read anything in newsletters from Jay etc.

2nd, I see what Chuck is sayin about access to a public beta having more "depth" then say modo's podcasts and pics/vids every week. BUT! I would say that what Luxology is doing is far more effective.

a) Anyone has access to this information, dont think u even need to be a member of the forum to hear and see a glimspe of whats on the horizon. Where as with newtek i need to own lightwave and apply to get beta access.

b) Newtek may spit out builds every couple days but I personally don't use them, I just read what has been fixed, and what is outstanding and wait for stable point releases. I'm looking for info. The pictures, video's and voice of Luxology even if half the time they are about buying flowers for the wife or Brad's kids new bubble maker puts a face and adds a tangabilty between the users and the deveolpers. Newtek is very faceless in this regard. The frequency of contact with the community I think out weights the depth of the messages.. at least I would say it is much more effective than having users check up every 6 months to see if anything is new.

Just my thoughts, Ken


The frequency of contact with the community is daily, with several staff from several departments participating, but the nature has indeed been somewhat different in character, and there are some significant elements that have gone missing for some time now. NewTek's Marketing division has undergone a number of changes over the last couple of years, including first being split into multiple teams, dedicated to specific product lines or task sets, and most recently being merged again into a single division. There have also been a number of staff changes in that time as well. Essentially at this point the entire marketing program is being re-booted, and no doubt many of the comments here are timely for the considerations of the staff involved in that effort.

nthused
08-29-2007, 03:50 PM
...the entire marketing program is being re-booted, and no doubt many of the comments here are timely for the considerations of the staff involved in that effort.
:thumbsup: VERY good news, Chuck - thank you for that insight.

cresshead
08-29-2007, 04:53 PM
we need a 'clone of proton'....shouting out all the cool stuff in lw here!

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-29-2007, 05:04 PM
I see what Chuck is saying about access to a public beta having more "depth" then say modo's pod casts and pics/vids every week. BUT! I would say that what Luxology is doing is far more effective.

Anyone has access to this information, don't think u even need to be a member of the forum to hear and see a glimpse of whats on the horizon. Where as with newtek i need to own lightwave and apply to get beta access.

On the contrary!
It's way less effective what Lux is doing, than this Open Beta program, simply because you only get news for Modo about features only a short time before a new version is prior to ship. That fact that Brad is "communicating" each week with Modo users, means squat as most of the time he either "bubbling" for totally irrelevant to Modo things, or showing tutorials he made or from other users, as well as cool users work.

How long did we waited from version 2.03 to even heard that work is been done for 3.01 and how long after 2.03 we got a glimpse of what is coming with 3.01? Was it a year long, perhaps? I'd say that Luxology is far more cryptic when it comes about Modo's progress or future than NewTek, simply because all of registered NewTek's users can be part of this Open Beta program and get to know what's been on works by LightWave's dev team. With Modo, there is no such thing and only a handful of people are part of Modo's closed-to-the-public beta program and that's the reason for having so many bugs and so much instability, despite how cool program it is.


The pictures, video's and voice of Luxology even if half the time they are about buying flowers for the wife or Brad's kids new bubble maker puts a face and adds a tangibility between the users and the developers. Newtek is very faceless in this regard. The frequency of contact with the community I think out weights the depth of the messages.. at least I would say it is much more effective than having users check up every 6 months to see if anything is new.

That fact that Brad Peebler is a super great salesman is not questionable. He does a spectacular job promoting Modo and Luxology and he can easily fool all of us believing that the weekly mod casts he put on line are something we need and that this way we "are part" of Modo's progress and "communicate" with the "face" of Luxology. Indeed, a great marketing strategy, which very clever "forces" the public to believe that actually it does something good going on in Luxology after all. He cleverly hide the fact that Luxology when it comes to features for Modo, say nothing before they are almost ready to ship, which is a good and a bad thing and also the whole philosophy that they "listen" to their users through Modo's forums is very questionable, if you login and browse through those forums. The feeling is that they listen to very specific studios and managers that they elaborate with plus their small internal beta group, when it comes to feature priorities and not the general users, as many simple but stand out modeling features that users asking since Modo 1.0 are yet to come, even in 3.01...

I agree though, that when you hear or read some official info on a weekly basis, from the dev team or the president itself can only do good to the face of that company and can calm users down quite a bit and help their patient throughout the long dev cycles...

I'd very welcome a two week basis video-cast with Jay telling us the progress of things that happen now with the dev team. Successes or failures; doesn't really matter, as we'll wait for them anyway. And not necessarily some cool state of the art super new tools that are being developed for LW10.0, but those things the team is working for the next OB period, or actually anything he can throw to us. And during the beta period, if a version take longer than a week to reach us, he could jump in and share some info as to why; just to be in touch mostly, than actual info or anything...

I could settle with a weekly basis announcement on these OB forums, as well. Just something that we can interpret as "weekly active communicating" with NewTek, more or less...
Yes, that would be cool and probably would vanish all these type of threads, like this one... :)

Cheers,
T.Rex

vadermanchild
08-29-2007, 05:11 PM
I agree though, that when you hear or read some official info on a weekly basis, from the dev team or the president itself can only do good to the face of that company and can calm users down quite a bit and help their patient throughout the long dev cycles...

T.Rex

I agree this would help -

Theres a growing disquiet - Newtek can hope it goes away and doesnt affect their business longterm or deal with it.

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-29-2007, 07:57 PM
Damn!
I just realized that this thread is not in the Open Beta section, but in public... :D

Wonderpup
08-30-2007, 06:13 AM
I get regular emails from Luxology, despite never buying anything from them
(I downloaded the modo demo about six months ago.) In some ways I feel more in contact with them than with Newtek.

Of course it is purely feel good marketing, and the intellectual side of my brain dismisses it as such- but there is a part of me that is influenced by the fact that they bother to communicate, and it does impact in a favourable way on my perception of the company.

The open beta is in reality a more substantial effort, but it's kind of impersonal somehow-very much a one way street.

Ok, I'll say what I'm thinking, even though it may be really unfair. My general impression is that NT consider the kind of 'feel good' communication that Luxology do as beneath them, almost demeaning- not the sort of thing a serious company should be doing. And, again, intellectualy I can identify with that view.

But, we are not beings of pure intellect, and, sad as it may be, I do need to feel that 'things are happening' and the road I have chosen is the right road.

My recent decision to start the move to XSI was certainly driven in part by a real sense that the kind of fundemental change I was looking for was simply not taking place.

Andyjaggy
08-30-2007, 08:03 AM
Yeah come to think of it I haven't got a Newtek newsletter in some time.

toby
08-30-2007, 09:48 PM
There's another way to look at it - I felt pestered by Lux. If I wanted the [email protected] thing I'd buy it. Since I chose not to buy it I get pestered anyway? What's the point of repeated emails? Show me all the features, let me decide, and that'll be the end of it.

RedBull
08-31-2007, 01:31 AM
I've been grazing through this thread mostly reading the conversation between Wonderpup and Chuck for the last couple pages.

2nd, I see what Chuck is sayin about access to a public beta having more "depth" then say modo's podcasts and pics/vids every week. BUT! I would say that what Luxology is doing is far more effective.

a) Anyone has access to this information, dont think u even need to be a member of the forum to hear and see a glimspe of whats on the horizon. Where as with newtek i need to own lightwave and apply to get beta access.


Yes i was using the Beta's during 9.0, but stopped as it was not fun in a production environment to be updating and reloading, trashing configs, I decided to only look at last stable releases like 9.0, 9.2 and 9.3....
So i no longer participate unless we are out of Beta.

I simply agree with your POV, I've see a dramatic decrease in traffic on Spinquad, NT forums, CGTalk, LWMailing List, LWOz lists ever since the LW9.0 Open Beta...

Making everyone agree to NDA's was likely the stupidest thing NT ever did.
Every new message on this public area was shouted down by a bunch of over zealous NDA abiders with quotes like " We are not allowed to talk about it"
Or "It's under NDA" you know new people come asking for info and get that kind of crap reply, why bother trying to sell a product at all?

If you tell enough people NOT to talk about Lightwave, than eventually they DON'T!

With a company that can't afford to advertise, and actually relies on word of mouth and impressive plugins like FPrime to make LW what it is, I believe not using the thoughts and views of all there Open Beta participants was incredibly stupid.. Not only did you not use there excitement, but you prevented the hype along with every release...

Once upon a time, A LW 9.3 release would be talked about on all the mailing lists for days, because everyone had new toys, new ideas and were generally excited about the release...
Now we have nobody talking about the 9.3 release, even after it's released.

I respect that NT did adopt an Open Beta, and likey had to due to the plain false promises it would ship before Christmas, and then never did....
But in reality i believe the LW community has never looked so little like a community as a result.

And full credit to Luxology there TV, Podcasts and Friday Updates have seen everybody talk about Modo and XSI instead...And there is no doubt Brad is a great Snake Oil salesman, so it's no surprise on this regard.
Kudo's to Houdini who also did an Open Beta, that didn't gag me from talking about it's wonderful features...

So while i appreciate for Old LW diehards, the OpenBeta is great everyone feels like they are contributing to LW's development, but for new customers and the userbase not associated they are left wondering if there is a LW development.

cresshead
08-31-2007, 02:09 AM
could be that the best route is the open beta with all the NDA restrictions PLUS
a weekly video update from newtek covering things being worked on in lightwave, speed edit and video toaster that way the beta people get their hands on with the latest updates to wring out the bugs and those who don't have/want a beta or those who have yet to buy or upgrade get a weekly dose of NEWTEK...in this day n age of podcasts, youtube i find is REALLY 'wanting' from newtek with their speed edit..they can push out a video podcast every week...just a 5min newscast with work from the forum users, plugin news, TEK [newtek] news interviews etc...

and with the worlds fastest video editor creating it would actually be a marketing tool for speed edit to boot!

if they fear that they can't fill with content per week...then add in a short demo of a tool every week as well as news from
what's being used where etc...

cagey5
08-31-2007, 02:27 AM
Redbull, I think you make some valid points and the drop off in forum traffic is something I have noticed too.
As regards talking about open beta outside of the designated forum, Newtek changed their policy somewhat this time round and released the testers to go talk about what was happening in beta way before it was released, with the proviso that bug squashing comments and reports were quite rightly kept separate.
I think what doesn't happen though is people doing just that, i.e. going forth and spreading the good news and I think that's because there is so much debate going on within the beta forum itself you tend to think that everybody knows already.
I think you're right, regular informative or tutorial videos could be released to generate that interest to better effect because I must admit by the end of one beta program I'm not sure which were new additions this time round and which were added in the previous version.

toby
08-31-2007, 04:21 AM
There's a modern thing in newsletters called unsubcscribe :D

It seems that people look hard for reasons to *****, where there are none.
Yea, I did unsubcscribe, because I felt pestered.

Pardon me for providing an alternative perspective, I know how childish and unwelcome that is.

theo
08-31-2007, 09:33 AM
Making everyone agree to NDA's was likely the stupidest thing NT ever did.

It's absurd to think that NT will develop LW without controlling access to the process. I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would think otherwise.

The people at Modo are presenting demo video and the like which is, at its essence, a controlled integration of the user into the development process much like NT's beta forum.

Now, the argument can rage forever about which effort is more substantial but that is beside the point which is that no software company will ever be truly transparent about its development process. Competitively, it is suicide.

The Modo people have obviously taken a more psychologically appealing approach than NT has but they are about as transparent as NT when you read the fine print.

Wonderpup
08-31-2007, 10:08 AM
I think the real problem is that NT don't seem to have a clear vision of how they want to be perceived, so they give out mixed messages. If we look at Autodesk on the one hand, and luxology on the other, two very different styles of communication are evident.

Autodesk are the corporate monolith, essentially faceless and remote, while luxology are the friendly guys next door (apparently) accessible. Two ends of a spectrum.

Now Newtek seem to be trying to adopt both these positions at the same time, depending on the circumstances.

So, yes,we do have NT people on the forums, but almost always in a 'pest control' role- to the point where you find yourself making provocative post's simply to get a response sometimes.

I don't think you can realisticly try to be both friendly and accessible and then run for cover behind corporate impenetrability when the questions get tough- it's a recipe for frustration on both sides.

I think NT need to pick a style and stick to it- at the moment their communications are falling between two stools and nobody's happy

Titus
08-31-2007, 10:16 AM
in this day n age of podcasts, youtube i find is REALLY 'wanting' from newtek with their speed edit..they can push out a video podcast every week...just a 5min newscast with work from the forum users, plugin news, TEK [newtek] news interviews etc...

On another thread now defunct I posted this link a client sent me after I made a comment about aquiring SpeedEDIT, the client wasn't happy and I was somehow embarrassed:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qq0X0dWLu34

cagey5
08-31-2007, 10:24 AM
Then you have a po faced client.. ;) I find nothing wrong with the vid at all. It's a light hearted spoof of early TV adverts perfectly suited to Youtube.

Titus
08-31-2007, 10:29 AM
It's clear the intention of the advert, but it doesn't help to give me a professional image. These kind of clients will ask in the future to work on an avid instead of the SE.

lion111
08-31-2007, 10:34 AM
my 2 cents

i think when nt made the decision to make everything new (it was a must do or soon the only competitor would be blender) and may be they really thought: hey just go for it (the parallel thingi) 2 years and done
meanwhile they kwow they can only choose between pest and cholera.
1. tell the people the truth: before you get all what you what you want we are in lw11 may be lw12
result: lots of people will jump the ship
or
2. step by step tell them the truth over time, and this means only little info here and there, in the hope not so much people will jump the ship.

i would prefere no. 1 so to answer the question: a roadmap would be nice
the futur is a competitor to blender and f... the rest
or we will fight to get back.

by thr way 4 weeks ago my boss told me here you have foundation go and learn it

yes and after the 4 weeks i must say there are a lot of things which can be better in lightwave BUT some parts of it are still really not that bad
the grass is greener on the other side but not everywhere

greetings

theo
08-31-2007, 10:44 AM
I think the real problem is that NT don't seem to have a clear vision of how they want to be perceived, so they give out mixed messages. If we look at Autodesk on the one hand, and luxology on the other, two very different styles of communication are evident.

Autodesk are the corporate monolith, essentially faceless and remote, while luxology are the friendly guys next door (apparently) accessible. Two ends of a spectrum.

Now Newtek seem to be trying to adopt both these positions at the same time, depending on the circumstances.

So, yes,we do have NT people on the forums, but almost always in a 'pest control' role- to the point where you find yourself making provocative post's simply to get a response sometimes.

I don't think you can realisticly try to be both friendly and accessible and then run for cover behind corporate impenetrability when the questions get tough- it's a recipe for frustration on both sides.

I think NT need to pick a style and stick to it- at the moment their communications are falling between two stools and nobody's happy

Interestingly enough, the NT marketing team is in the midst of being reoriented as Chuck has pointed out. Which is probably why their marketing approach has been and IS scattered and slightly incoherent- I do agree with you on this.

I have a strong marketing background and I can see where some of their weak spots have been and I will leave it at that. I have no desire to speak ill of NT's people or marketing process other than to state a general view. Marketing is challenging enough as it is.

I will add that you really have hit the nail on the head as it concerns how marketing integrates with the forums. There needs to be pest control, absolutely, but this is not marketing, merely moderation and reaction.

Public relations tends to be responsive, marketing tends to be proactive. Used together they are strong allies in molding public opinion.

Lightwolf
08-31-2007, 10:51 AM
Autodesk are the corporate monolith, essentially faceless and remote, while luxology are the friendly guys next door (apparently) accessible. Two ends of a spectrum.
Surprisingly Autodesk tends to react quicker to an e-mail inquiry than thy friendly neighbour.
Well, maybe not suprisingly, and a corporate behemoth you better have some departments that work well - otherwise you'd never get that far in the first place.

Cheers,
Mike

Wonderpup
08-31-2007, 03:05 PM
I will add that you really have hit the nail on the head as it concerns how marketing integrates with the forums. There needs to be pest control, absolutely, but this is not marketing, merely moderation and reaction.

In a way is this not the crux of the whole roadmap issue, a disagreement about what constitutes 'communication,? Simply popping up every now and then when things get heated and scattering a few vauge assuraces about is perhaps worse than saying nothing at all. Why even pretend to be willing to engauge when in fact you have no real intention of doing so- it's bound to frustrate people.

I know no more now about Lightwave's mid to long term future than I did when I preorderd 9 nearly 2 years ago- in fact I know less because the projected feature list that persuaded me to upgrade has disappeared.

Ok, NT might say I have no right to know this stuff- which is probably true-but why pretend, in that case, that 'communication' is taking place, when all that is happening in reality is a form of crowd control.

By setting up a mechanisem where the only way to generate any kind of official response is to post negative comments, you actualy incite people to do just that. So rather than adopt a purely reactive 'fire fighting' approach, I think it would be better to either give out some real information, or just say nothing at all.

cresshead
08-31-2007, 05:13 PM
totally agree!

we need to hear from newtek on the cool new fun stuff not just the defensive reaction coments when people moan...

Gregg "T.Rex"
08-31-2007, 05:45 PM
I bet we will, when they are somewhat ready and sure they've nail them...
Patient until then...

I'm sure NewTek now envy Worley's policy of not saying anything until 3 days before release in Japan and worldwide, no matter how long it's users wait in total darkness, unsure of what's going on, if anything, behind Steve's curtain... :)

T.Rex

Snosrap
08-31-2007, 08:27 PM
It's clear the intention of the advert, but it doesn't help to give me a professional image. These kind of clients will ask in the future to work on an avid instead of the SE.

No problem, just charge them triple your normal rate!

Snosrap

Cageman
09-01-2007, 03:53 AM
Yes i was using the Beta's during 9.0, but stopped as it was not fun in a production environment to be updating and reloading, trashing configs, I decided to only look at last stable releases like 9.0, 9.2 and 9.3....
So i no longer participate unless we are out of Beta.

It takes me 3 minutes to setup a new build that doesn't collide or brake anything in other versions or builds of LW. I probably have all LW9.3 beta-builds installed, and never did I break anything concerning configs and whatnot.

EDIT: My point is that if you are working with something that is tiresome or buggy, and a new build comes out that is supposed to fix that problem, you can use that build to do the fix, save the scene and go back to the "stable" version.

cresshead
09-01-2007, 04:34 AM
No problem, just charge them triple your normal rate!

Snosrap

at least NOW there's a more pro looking demo video for showcasing speed edt.

http://www.rpmdigital.info/SpeedEDITLightWave/SpeedEDITLightWave.html

sammael
09-01-2007, 04:52 AM
In a way is this not the crux of the whole roadmap issue, a disagreement about what constitutes 'communication,? Simply popping up every now and then when things get heated and scattering a few vauge assuraces about is perhaps worse than saying nothing at all. Why even pretend to be willing to engauge when in fact you have no real intention of doing so- it's bound to frustrate people.


Yep I agree, im watching this thread because of Chuck's input but so far I have gleamed no insight as to what new features we might expect or their priority in the development cycle. Vague reassurances and references to apparent previous info which was apparently disclosed without me or anyone else knowing about it... Im confused & also in the process of learning XSI. Better to disclose a bit of info than to have your customers dropping off like flies I would have thought, but hey thats just me. *grumble*

prospector
09-01-2007, 10:13 AM
Yep I agree, im watching this thread because of Chuck's input but so far I have gleamed no insight as to what new features we might expect or their priority in the development cycle.

Must read all of Chucks posts.
We know where the 9 cycle IS going..

CA work plus a few other things that I forget (so many), but mainly CA tools.

This was mentioned from many people at Newtek, many many times ad nauseum

*Pete*
09-01-2007, 11:48 AM
I also wish i would know what is going to happen next.

I suspect that Instancing, modeller improvements and Ca tools are next on the list, followed by a new lighting system and further renderer improvements.

later, perhaps as late as Lw10, we will get modeller tools in layout.

personally, modeller tools in layout are not very important for me, but id love to be able to get the camera from layout to modeller instead, to use it on the perspective viewport....would make a LOT of things much easier ;)


anyway..all those things are based on the same fractional information as the rest of you guys have.

i wish i knew more...if only a simple, short "We will focus on *whatevertool*" the next couple of weeks.

the silence makes me feel like they are on vacation, even if i know that is not the case.

vadermanchild
09-01-2007, 01:16 PM
Chuck did say there would be more info on the way perhaps more than usual perhaps not and because there had been some info released that wasnt released and if they did it was too little or maybe we should be happy with that so dont worry more info is coming but dont ask when just stop asking and go buy some other piece of software if that doesnt suit

Not vague at all.

Wonderpup
09-01-2007, 01:44 PM
Must read all of Chucks posts.
We know where the 9 cycle IS going..

CA work plus a few other things that I forget (so many), but mainly CA tools.

This was mentioned from many people at Newtek, many many times ad nauseum

But does it really make sense to expect new CA tools to be possible without vertex level control in Layout- which we now know has been put back to at least 10. To me they are totaly interdependant, which is why it was such a blow to find out that modeler/layout integration is stalled.

Without some way to correct deformations on posed model, I don't see how you can implement a decent CA system. ( unless some *gons workaround is dreamed up- but that's where we are now.)

jin choung
09-01-2007, 02:10 PM
in regards to fixing deformations, they can have a pretty good system in effect using what we have if they can:

1. allow you to "save out transformed" from layout (in the pose with the weird deformation).

2. allow you to load that up in modeler (or by hub) and fix the deformation in the pose that caused it.

3. re-integrate that "transformed" pose back into the animation as a corrective morph.

this should be relatively straight forward to do with a plugin.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

problem now is that if you want to do a corrective morph, you have to go back to the original davinci pose that you skinned and then "guess" what the corrective morph will be when you get to that pose... and going back and forth from layout and modeler is frequent and necessary and this exascerbates lw's limitations.

i think my method above would solve a lot for a little.

jin

dballesg
09-01-2007, 03:04 PM
HI,

It is not only the deformations. It is the SPEED to redraw them as well.

I've been trying a character with a Maestro rig between 9.0 and 9.3 and the last one show it is much more slower.

And doesn't matter if I use the controls of maestro (really slow) or the nulls that control the character straight on Layout view ports (slow).

And doesn't matter it is a rig from Maestro. Maestro automatize the creation of a rig, with LW Bones and expressions. There is not magic behind it.

In fact you can adapt Maestro to create your own rigs, but they must be 100% done with the actual LW tools.

And that is on the same computer with a 512Mb Quadro card.

I am with wonderpup, Newtek would really surprise me with new CA after they said the Modeler Tools in Layout are for the next version.

jin choung
09-01-2007, 03:12 PM
i totally agree, this is HUUUUUUUGE. redraw speed and the ability to work with complicated rigs in a snappy real-time fashion is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL for ca.

jin

jin choung
09-01-2007, 03:19 PM
holy moly, speaking of maestro, evidently, this is very similar (and first) and is free! wowowow!

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fnoboyama.sakura.ne.jp%2Flightwa ve_plugin%2Fautomaton%2Fdoc%2Findex.html&lp=ja_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

jin

jin choung
09-01-2007, 03:23 PM
holy cow, and in the download page, check out the demonstration movies! fantastic!

jin

cresshead
09-01-2007, 03:24 PM
this animation plugin pops up on the forums here every 3-4 months...we're still looking for a de facto explanation of how to run it....

a tutorial video would be great...then we could really see what the fuss is all about!

sammael
09-01-2007, 03:25 PM
Must read all of Chucks posts.
We know where the 9 cycle IS going..

CA work plus a few other things that I forget (so many), but mainly CA tools.

This was mentioned from many people at Newtek, many many times ad nauseum

Yes it was CA tools, instancing, improved memory usage and Gi caching that were the main ones, which have been mentioned many times. We currently have no insight as to the development progress of any of them only the vague reassurance that they are coming some time in the future if there are no major problems during the course of delelopment in which case they will be delayed considerably. How very reassuring, sorry I bothered to complain about something which has been made so perfectly clear.

I like many others would like to know the progress of these particular improvements along with a bit of info as to how far along in the development cycle these features currently are because as far as I recall for many items in this list the same reassurances can be traced back many years.
Give us something with a bit of meat to it...

vadermanchild
09-01-2007, 04:32 PM
Someone mentioned they pre-ordered 9 2 years ago.

So going by that when do we expect to see a decent LW10? Say a Lw 10point2?

2010 for Lw10?

Gregg "T.Rex"
09-01-2007, 04:48 PM
2010 for Lw10?

Probably, yes... :D
Then again...
So what?

kevinone
09-01-2007, 07:28 PM
Chuck, I think you guys are doing great work. You can never please everyone. I find 9.3 much better than any previous version with many useful features and a lot of nasty bugs gone.

I think if you can keep up the great pace, LW will be truly compeditive with anything in a couple years.

The extreme complexity of such a program obviously has an impact on how quickly certain things can be done.

Keep up the good work!!! :thumbsup:

:agree: I have to say I will purchase version 10 when it comes out, just because of the changes from 9.0 to 9.3 and I like the fact the team is trying so hard, means alot!, at one time I swore I would never upgrade. My only problem is there is no beta right know:thumbsdow

Gregg "T.Rex"
09-01-2007, 08:02 PM
I say let them code it first, take it though alpha stage and then we'll see another beta of the next update. It's been only days since 9.3 was released. These things take time, so go do something else... :D

It's not like they keep it in a drawer and take it out in a timely fashion, like nVidia does with its cards. They usually are one or two generations ahead of their latest, but wait for each product to fulfill its life cycle, before introduce the next one. BTW, in two months they will announce the 9xxx series of cards, starting with the 9800, which rumors has it that it's twice as fast as the 8800 cards and also they'll be capable of multi-SLIing; two, three, four etc. As much as you can get and as many pci-e slots your PC/Mac have...

Sorry, for the OT but these are great news/rumors...

Andyjaggy
09-01-2007, 08:22 PM
too bad the most powerful videocard on the market still won't speed up modeler :)

Gregg "T.Rex"
09-01-2007, 08:25 PM
Modeler, no...
Layout, yes but without deformations...
Motion Builder though, fly as a rocket... :)

Titus
09-01-2007, 09:13 PM
at least NOW there's a more pro looking demo video for showcasing speed edt.

http://www.rpmdigital.info/SpeedEDITLightWave/SpeedEDITLightWave.html

Hey! this video makes me want to buy SE... again :).

clagman
09-20-2007, 03:45 PM
And then get back to me with all these complaints. I would suggest using Strata for a bit. Some good ideas, but absolutely horrible excecution.