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View Full Version : I'm makin' the switch!



ShawnStovall
08-09-2007, 12:53 PM
I'm tired of PC's, so many unexplaind crashes and deadly viruses, I'm goin' Mac. Lepord has really impressed me and Vista is just... just.. horibble! I can't stand it anymore!!! Another thing that has influenced me is that Intel now makes processors for the Mac. I like the thought of having the power of an Intel processor behind the beautiful interface of Lepord. I've made up my mind, I'm done with PC's.:D I think this change is for the better.

jat
08-09-2007, 12:58 PM
the Mac plugin situation stinks.......don't kid yourself here....many times I just walk away from threads because we don't have access to the same tools....that's a BIG difference.

ShawnStovall
08-09-2007, 01:09 PM
I'm still going to have acces to a PC, I'm just having so much truble with it right now it's insane, ever since I started getting into computers(about two years ago)I have had to reinstall XP five times and Vista once! Taking care of a PC is like taking care of a baby, I can't get any work done because I'm too busy fixing the computer.

pumeco
08-09-2007, 01:24 PM
Bring back Commodore and the mighty Amiga - that's what I say :rock:

jat
08-09-2007, 01:25 PM
well I'm on a PPC G5 and LW 9.2 is pretty much useless on it......graphics card issue 7800 GT and I guess Newtek is too busy right now so I'm out of luck..........GO TEAM!!!!!!!! Can you tell I'm a happy camper.......lol

ShawnStovall
08-09-2007, 01:33 PM
It's not really my fault(the viruses and stuff). My family(7 others)also uses this computer and most of them don't know anything about it and do stuff that might potentially crash it without knowing it. And like I said before, I'm still going to have acces to a PC.

Anti-Distinctly
08-09-2007, 01:48 PM
I agree neverko. I recently downgraded the layers of protection I use against viruses and what not as there just wansn't the threat I thought there was.
I've really felt for some mac users in the past who've had to put up with the phrase 'sorry, no mac version yet/planned'.
I'll refrain from stating what I think of apple as a company.

SBowie
08-09-2007, 01:51 PM
Strangely enough (after all the dire predictions), I've been gradually getting acquainted with a Vista 64 bit system for the last 10 days or so, migrating stuff over a bit at a time, and am quite surprised to be saying that thus far it has treated me very, very well.

No, I'm not running LW on the system, but it's been clean, pretty, fast, and - given the amount of new stuff to get used to - un-intrusive. I think that chubby guy in the Mac ads may just possibly be mentally deficient.

I've got it on a KVM, and can tap a switch and revert to XP Pro in about 2 seconds, but sofar I'd really have to stretch it to complain about a single thing. Weird, I know...

Andyjaggy
08-09-2007, 01:54 PM
I mean if you think switching to a mac will solve all your problems then by all means go for it. I wish you best of luck. Just don't be surprised to find out it will fix the problems you have now but open up a whole new set of them.

As for viruses. I went one year with a constantly on internet connection without any antivirus. I then installed one at the end of the year and did a scan of my system. It didn't find a single thing! Not sure if I just got lucky or if that is pretty typical these days.

Thalaxis
08-09-2007, 02:14 PM
It's not really my fault(the viruses and stuff). My family(7 others)also uses this computer and most of them don't know anything about it and do stuff that might potentially crash it without knowing it. And like I said before, I'm still going to have acces to a PC.

As long as an operating system has features, users, and internet connectivity, it is vulnerable.

iconoclasty
08-09-2007, 02:31 PM
A family computer with multiple unknowledgeable users is going to degrade quickly. It's not really fair to blame that on being a PC. But if you like the idea of being a Mac user, more power to you.

mouse_art
08-09-2007, 02:39 PM
mhh, had a(one) virus 4 or 5 years back, but was my own fault, btw never used AV Software, and will never, but from time to time i scan for Spyware.

Sometimes i have the ridiculous idea it's the user alone.

If you want switch, go for it, and have fun. ;)

creativecontrol
08-09-2007, 02:43 PM
Good luck with that Shawn. Another chap at the office here thought he was going to do that. What a dissaster! He's gone now because he couldn't get anything done.

Steamthrower
08-09-2007, 02:49 PM
I went Mac and haven't looked Bac.

I still use a PC for some work, but since you can dual-boot the new Macs that's no problem for me. Though actually I work with two laptops, my MacBook Pro and my Dell Inspiron 9400, both on side by side.

My Mac networks really nice with the Windows network here. I really really like it.

ShawnStovall
08-09-2007, 04:05 PM
I wasn't trying to blame my family for my problems with PC's.

First off, I wouldn't have even considered getting a Mac if it wasn't for the fact that they now make them with Intel processors. All I do on a computer is learn C++ and do some light 3D art. I'm only fifteen, I have time to make my convictions toward Mac or PC.

borkus
08-09-2007, 07:28 PM
hey shawn. i feel your frustration. to hear so many others say that they have run their system with no problems for years is ,for lack of better words, disheartening. but like a few have said, there is usually a reason as to why something isn't working quite right. bad ram, hardware conflicts, rogue apps hogging resources... the list is huge. but manageable. the guys here are awesome for answering computer questions, but i rarely ask here because i just feel bad. here are 2 sites that i use when having pc problems. cybertechhelp.com (http://www.cybertechhelp.com/forums/index.php) and tech support forum ("http://www.techsupportforum.com/). hope these can at least help fix the family pc even if you go mac...

ShawnStovall
08-09-2007, 07:53 PM
hey shawn. i feel your frustration. to hear so many others say that they have run their system with no problems for years is ,for lack of better words, disheartening. but like a few have said, there is usually a reason as to why something isn't working quite right. bad ram, hardware conflicts, rogue apps hogging resources... the list is huge. but manageable. the guys here are awesome for answering computer questions, but i rarely ask here because i just feel bad. here are 2 sites that i use when having pc problems. cybertechhelp.com (http://www.cybertechhelp.com/forums/index.php) and tech support forum ("http://www.techsupportforum.com/). hope these can at least help fix the family pc even if you go mac...

Thanks for the links!:D

lilrayray77
08-09-2007, 08:09 PM
Id have to agree with many of the posted comments, however, after setting my brother's new macbook, I was quite drawn to it myself. It was quite snappy (especially for a small laptop) and the setup was generally quite easy and painless. Also something to note, though, is OS X does have some quirks. I recently had to reinstall OS X due to losing all of the file permissions, which made the system almost unusable (I have had equally bad things happen in windows, go figure...). Anyway a mac would be something new and, I think, worth giving a go.

Steamthrower
08-09-2007, 08:38 PM
Bad things happen on any OS. I tend to use LW on XP Pro because of the plugin problem.

IMI
08-09-2007, 08:49 PM
Yeah, the family thing. I've had friends come over and see me using my PC's, looking up stuff on the 'net, showing off apps and whatnot, and ask what I do to keep them running so fast, and why don't I have 40 icons in the taskbar, and why doesn't it take 5 minutes to boot. People with relatively new PC's, this is, who figure there's something wrong because it was running great out of the box, but only 3 months later and it's slow as can be.
So I look at their machines, find all kinds of spyware, all kinds of bloatware and crapware, invalid registry entries, programs that were uninstalled incompletely, all manner of junk loading on startup. It's pretty ridiculous what a few uninformed users can turn your PC into.
Myself, I'd love to have a bada$$ Mac, and I probably will get one to learn it one day, but I'm with those who simply don't have problems. Windows can be a PITA at times, but it's not difficult to smack it into submission and obedience, if you know how to maintain it.

jat
08-09-2007, 08:53 PM
lilrayray77

you had to reinstall because you lost the permissions??????......................Did you try repairing them with the install CD? Fixing accounts?......

lesterfoster
08-09-2007, 10:43 PM
I suggest that everyone take a good look at DeepFREEZE (http://www.faronics.com/). It prevents anything from being saved to your boot drive, unless you allow it to. As most viruses go after your boot drive. DeepFREEZE (http://www.faronics.com/) well prevent them and anything from being saved to your boot drive.

Some tips on how to use DeepFREEZE (http://www.faronics.com/).
To start with, You need at least two hard drives. One, your boot drive, and the other, The drive that you save your work too, and anything that you want to keep. This could be one drive, if you split your drive into two parts. Or better yet, have two hardware drives, one to boot from, and the other, to save what you want to save or need to save stuff too.

How to install and use DeepFREEZE (http://www.faronics.com/). Start fresh. Format your boot drive and reinstall your operating system, then install DeepFREEZE (http://www.faronics.com/). Then install all of the software that you need and want to use. After getting your system back up and running again the way that you want it to. Use DeepFREEZE (http://www.faronics.com/) to freeze your boot drive. That's all there is to it.

Testimonials (http://www.faronics.com/html/testimonial.asp)

Hope this helps.

Dodgy
08-10-2007, 12:35 AM
You should really give non-technical users the most basic of user accounts. I've been running 2K at home and I can't remember the last time I reinstalled it, it's been really stable for me. Using XP at work has also been very stable, and vista has been okay too now I've turned off superfetch and UAC. I run a virus checker which does complete scans every day at work, and every week at home and not had any problems.

DogBoy
08-10-2007, 02:08 AM
Also something to note, though, is OS X does have some quirks. I recently had to reinstall OS X due to losing all of the file permissions, which made the system almost unusable (I have had equally bad things happen in windows, go figure...).

You don't need to reinstall OSX to reset file permissions. As Jat said, reboot the Mac with the installer CD and instead of reinstalling use the Disk Utility to repair the permissions. 10-15 minutes later you are fine again.

Not that I'm denigrating you or anything, but I don't want you popping on here in 6 monthes complaining the OSX is OK, but it ruins the permissions all the time :hey: .

(Says the PC only guy :D )

Red_Oddity
08-10-2007, 02:45 AM
Last time i used the Mac i always had to run Disk Utility multiple times to get all permissions fixed, mind you though, that's been, what 4 years ago?

I must say, i really liked OS-X, i also hated many parts of it.
I really like Win XP, i also hate many many parts of it.
I like Linux, i hate a lot in it too though.

There is unfortunatly no perfects OS, as long as software writers and OS developers keep coming up with OS-es that need to cater to every market (Joe IQ below 10 and MIT Phd graduates, if you catch my drift)
Too much is simply locked for the end user, and too much is left open at the same time at such basic levels that it is possible to wreck an OS within minutes.

Anyhoo, everything has been mentioned already concerning your switch to OSX, all i can say is (and you should have done this on your PC aswell) make user accounts for the rest of the family, accounts that allow you to browse the web and do email and that's pretty much it, and setup a decent power user account for yourself.

3dworks
08-10-2007, 03:03 AM
You don't need to reinstall OSX to reset file permissions. As Jat said, reboot the Mac with the installer CD and instead of reinstalling use the Disk Utility to repair the permissions. 10-15 minutes later you are fine again.

Not that I'm denigrating you or anything, but I don't want you popping on here in 6 monthes complaining the OSX is OK, but it ruins the permissions all the time :hey: .

(Says the PC only guy :D )

ever heard of applejack?

http://applejack.sourceforge.net/

no need to reboot from DVD, and does a lot more than only repairing permissions. using it here on all my macs (from G4 powerbook to octo macpro) whenever i need to, maybe every 2 weeks or so. in fact it's the only repair tool i'm using on a regular base. it's like aspirine for macs, and cures 99% of issues...

cheers

markus

meshpig
08-10-2007, 03:27 AM
I'm tired of PC's, so many unexplaind crashes and deadly viruses, I'm goin' Mac. Lepord has really impressed me and Vista is just... just.. horibble! I can't stand it anymore!!! Another thing that has influenced me is that Intel now makes processors for the Mac. I like the thought of having the power of an Intel processor behind the beautiful interface of Lepord. I've made up my mind, I'm done with PC's.:D I think this change is for the better.

Remember that you can run windows on intel mac too so you don't have to be biased one way or the other.


M

DogBoy
08-10-2007, 04:10 AM
ever heard of applejack?

http://applejack.sourceforge.net/



Even better (and, no, I'd not heard of it. Time to add it to my OSX toolbox) :thumbsup:

zardoz
08-10-2007, 04:57 AM
I didn't read all this thread but I read Dodgys post and I have to agrre with him.

At home I have windows Xp since it came out. And I never reinstalled it. I never saw a blue screen in this computer. But Lightwave crashes...a few times. So I guess it's not windows fault.
At work I also have Windows Xp and it never crashed. Lightwave crashes a few times...
My Co-workers use 3dsmax and they crash it all the time...but winxp never crash...
Some users install everything they put their hands on...some of my friends have 20 icons in the tray area...I have 4 or 5 (for networks, avg, lwhub). all of this is stuff that hogs the computer.
So maybe we should try to understand why are you having all those problems...

Matt
08-10-2007, 05:38 AM
Don't have any issues with my PC, I guess if you look after it, it looks after you.

SBowie
08-10-2007, 05:52 AM
... reboot the Mac with the installer CD and instead of reinstalling use the Disk Utility to repair the permissions. 10-15 minutes later you are fine again.Reminds me of the 'good old days' of re-validating disks on the Amiga...

lilrayray77
08-10-2007, 06:21 AM
lilrayray77

you had to reinstall because you lost the permissions??????......................Did you try repairing them with the install CD? Fixing accounts?......

Not sure, but i tried everything to my knowledge (which was minimal as Im a full time Windows person with). Im pretty sure it was a permissions problem, however it could have been something deeper. Ill have to remember the installer cd. I think this is proof that often it isnt completely the OS's fault but rather often the users. :twak: :cursin:

lilrayray77
08-10-2007, 06:26 AM
Ahh, this applejack thing looks quite interesting. Ill have to make my brother try it before coming to me for help.

axaboss
08-10-2007, 09:05 AM
I have both an Apple and Windows workflow for my operation. I find Windows to still be the favorite for LightWave animation work because of the availability of plugins and support.

Exception
08-10-2007, 09:56 AM
Good for you Shawn, I hope you find a more enjoyable place on the other side of the fence :)

I wish I could go linux...

Stooch
08-10-2007, 10:50 AM
wow. cant think of a better reason to start a thread?

your reasons sound like poor os maintenance and configuration btw. so i think you will be better off with a dumbed down os :)

starbase1
08-10-2007, 10:58 AM
In my experience the single most important thing you can do to keep your windows PC stable is ditch IE, and move to Firefox. I pretty much stopped getting any kind of spyware viruses etc with that one step.

For your family, what do they do with the PC? If it's web browsing, email, and the office basics you could well find that unbuntu covers everything they need staight out the box, in a stable and secure manner. You could always try it on your old box after getting your Mac.

Also worth checking - have you installed any troubleshooting type utilities? These days they seem to be more of a source of problems than a fix...

Nick

Stooch
08-10-2007, 11:24 AM
MODERATOR sez:
Rude assumptions and personal attacks have been deleted.

ShawnStovall
08-10-2007, 11:48 AM
I was just wanting to see different opinions about switching, and that is what I got. And I DON'T search for porn and I DON'T download warez.

iconoclasty
08-10-2007, 12:18 PM
I DON'T search for porn

I don't throw the term "Liar" around alot, but...

Matt
08-10-2007, 12:25 PM
another good way to avoid viruses is to stop downloading warez and trying to browse for free porn. typically those are the most common ways to get infected (but even that is possible with a goo AV program like nod32 and sensible maintenace).

Dang, I need to stop doing that! :D

Stooch
08-10-2007, 12:33 PM
whats wrong with it? a little anatomy lesson every now and then wont hurt anyone.

avkills
08-10-2007, 03:05 PM
Well if you are planning on being a programmer and learning C++ then you can't really go wrong with getting a Mac; with Parallels you could run XP, Vista and Linux as Virtual Machines. For a developer a Mac Pro loaded with RAM is pretty much a dream machine.

Regardless, not keeping up with OS maintenance and letting lots of users run rampant on any machine will make it go haywire in a hurry. My suggestion is whatever you end up doing, don't let anyone but yourself have admin privileges. I don't even let my day to day user in OS X have admin rights.

-mark

Steamthrower
08-10-2007, 03:09 PM
So Stooch got banned; cool. What he told Shawn was pretty rude.

ShawnStovall
08-10-2007, 03:19 PM
Well if you are planning on being a programmer and learning C++ then you can't really go wrong with getting a Mac; with Parallels you could run XP, Vista and Linux as Virtual Machines. For a developer a Mac Pro loaded with RAM is pretty much a dream machine.

Regardless, not keeping up with OS maintenance and letting lots of users run rampant on any machine will make it go haywire in a hurry. My suggestion is whatever you end up doing, don't let anyone but yourself have admin privileges. I don't even let my day to day user in OS X have admin rights.

-mark

Thanks for the info. When I end up getting a Mac I plan on buying Leopard for it and that provides built-in support for dual-booting Windows, which I plan to do.:D

StereoMike
08-13-2007, 11:51 AM
So Stooch got banned;

What? for that sentence Matt quoted? I thought it was funny.

mike

Signal to Noise
08-13-2007, 01:02 PM
... And I DON'T search for porn....

So what's the internet good for then? You may as well get rid of it and your computer problems will disappear. ;)

LW_Will
08-13-2007, 04:16 PM
Hey... have we given Shawn the official chant yet?

One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us!
One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us!
One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us!

Mac's aren't built, they are grown. ;-)

ShawnStovall
08-13-2007, 05:44 PM
Hey... have we given Shawn the official chant yet?

One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us!
One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us!
One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us! One of Us!

Mac's aren't built, they are grown. ;-)

After doing a lot of research on the Mac I'm starting to get that impression.;)

Jim_C
08-13-2007, 06:08 PM
Get, use, and learn as many systems as you can.
PC, Mac, Linux.
They all work at times.
And they all don't work at times.
The most important connection for all of them is the one between the keyboard and the chair.


The knowledge will help you immensely in the future.


Jim

pixym
08-13-2007, 06:20 PM
the Mac plugin situation stinks.......don't kid yourself here....many times I just walk away from threads because we don't have access to the same tools....that's a BIG difference.

4 years ago I switch from Mac to PC because of this good reason...
I will never retrurn on mac for 3D work...
But now a mac is also a PC... just the OS changes!

CourtJester
08-13-2007, 07:33 PM
I'm in the process of switching my aging dual Athlon MP over to Linux; I'd be done by now were it not for some bizarre hardware issues cropping up that shouldn't be related to Ubuntu, but still seemed to crop up right when I started trying to set up the dual boot.

The machine just won't permit more than one device per onboard IDE controller anymore... and when I tried to get around that by installing a third party controller, it wouldn't boot off it no matter what BIOS settings I used (sigh).

Then I tried moving all my content off the main drive onto network storage, and installing Ubuntu on the same drive with GRUB installed into the MBR -- which is what I was looking to avoid with a two-drive setup -- and it worked. For one boot. Then -- "Bad Pool Caller" stop errors on Windows bootup. Ubuntu was fine, Windows dead. With SIGGRAPH coming up, I needed to edit reels. So I restore the system partition from backup image made just before installling GRUB, and no dice -- "Bad Pool Caller".

So I had to reinstall Windows. The old install was four years old -- bloddy amazing for a Winblows setup to last that long without a reinstall, a testament to Win2k's current solidity. Unfortunately, that's four years of apps, utilities, configurations etc. to restore. That's been happening as needed, and I'm not done yet.

I'm going to try once more; I recently found a site that explains how to dual-boot Linux/Windows using the NT loader instead of GRUB. That way I can dual boot without modifying the MBR, which is one of the suspects in the "bad pool caller" issue.

Aside form all that, however, Ubuntu has been nice and trouble-free in itself.

The new machine, finances permitting, is going to be a Mac Pro, with VM's set up for everything else; if that works, the old machine will be turned into another file server. I've got Vista on a laptop, and I don't see any reason to use an OS that needs a gig of RAM just to get going.

inquisitive
08-14-2007, 01:21 AM
I'm still going to have acces to a PC, I'm just having so much truble with it right now it's insane, ever since I started getting into computers(about two years ago)I have had to reinstall XP five times and Vista once! Taking care of a PC is like taking care of a baby, I can't get any work done because I'm too busy fixing the computer.

heh in the old days i used to consider reinstalling the OS a normal thing. I guess it depends what all you install. Mine have not crashed at all in many months, but I have different computers for different tasks, I just build them with used parts here and there.

I would like a faster mac, (currently have two a blue/white 400mhz that was to replace my even older powerpc 7200 lol except the problem with the blue/white mac is it has no floppy, and all my mac music software is in floopies) == If anybody has any tips on a floopy drive for this mac pls pm me.

meshpig
08-14-2007, 03:07 AM
4 years ago I switch from Mac to PC because of this good reason...
I will never retrurn on mac for 3D work...
But now a mac is also a PC... just the OS changes!

Yeah, Windows is a dog. Why bark when you already have one?

m

Anti-Distinctly
08-25-2007, 02:58 AM
I've been thinking about getting a Mac recently, but aren't they considerably more expensive than the equivalent pc?

DogBoy
08-25-2007, 03:02 AM
I've been thinking about getting a Mac recently, but aren't they considerably more expensive than the equivalent pc?

Not for a Mac Pro if memory serves (which it rarely does these days :( )

Anti-Distinctly
08-25-2007, 04:48 AM
OK, this comparison may not be exact, but hopefully it will demonstrate my quandry...oh and before I start, I'm not down with the benefits of Xeon processors, are they really worth the money? With that in mind I speced (sp?) out the following machines...

From Apple Store - U.K.
==================

Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
4GB (4 x 1GB)
NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT 256MB (single-link DVI/dual-link DVI)
250GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
One 16x SuperDrive
Apple Keyboard & Mighty Mouse - British
Mac OS X (English)
Apple Cinema Display (20" flat panel)
Apple Cinema Display (20" flat panel)
AppleCare Protection Plan for Mac Pro - Auto-enroll
Five USB ports
Two FireWire 400 ports
Two FireWire 800 ports

Cost 3,144.99

From Eclipse computers
==================
Intel Core2 Quad Extreme X6850 3.0GHz LGA775 Processor
DUAL OCZ Platinum XTC v2 2048MB PC2-6400 DDR2 Dual Kit (4-4-4-15)
DUAL 768MB nVidia GeForce 8800 GTX PCI-Express VGA Card SLi Slot 2 (NVIDIA GeForce 7300 not available)
NEC AD5170A-0B 18X+/-DVD-R Dual Layer Dvd Writer- Black
DUAL 320Gb Maxtor DiamondMax21 SATAI/II 8Mb Cache HardDrive
3.5 1.44Mb Floppy Disk Drive -Black Facia-
33-in-1 USB2.0 Card Reader 3.5 Internal/External -Black
[some cooling peripherals]
DUAL 22 Inch Widescreen TFT Monitor
Logitech S500 5.1 Channel Speakers - Black
Logitech Premium Desktop Optical Black/Silver -oem-
Gold Eclipse System Warranty (3Year RTB + Premier30)

Cost 2150.78

The obvious thing that isn't really comprable is the processor, kind of important. But important to the tune of 1k? And everything else seems to exceed the Mac spec. Help me out here people. I'm going mad.

3dworks
08-25-2007, 05:19 AM
old story: as long as you buy memory and extra HD capacity in the apple store pricing will never be competitive. we could also argue about if it is really necessary to buy an apple display (which is well designed, but does not always have the best display quality for it's price level - at least if you believe the results of many tests. if you buy those components elsewhere, at best market conditions, you will have a completely different balance. also, don't forget that the price difference between 3.0 ghz and 2.66 processor models is not really that small... as for the graphics card, the ATI X1900 with 512 Mb RAM is probably the best choice and not slower than the overly expensive top level nvidia, and costs around 350 USD more than the lame standard 7300 if you order in apple store, if i'm not wrong.

markus


OK, this comparison may not be exact, but hopefully it will demonstrate my quandry...oh and before I start, I'm not down with the benefits of Xeon processors, are they really worth the money? With that in mind I speced (sp?) out the following machines...

From Apple Store - U.K.
==================

Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
4GB (4 x 1GB)
NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT 256MB (single-link DVI/dual-link DVI)
250GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
One 16x SuperDrive
Apple Keyboard & Mighty Mouse - British
Mac OS X (English)
Apple Cinema Display (20" flat panel)
Apple Cinema Display (20" flat panel)
AppleCare Protection Plan for Mac Pro - Auto-enroll
Five USB ports
Two FireWire 400 ports
Two FireWire 800 ports

Cost 3,144.99

From Eclipse computers
==================
Intel Core2 Quad Extreme X6850 3.0GHz LGA775 Processor
DUAL OCZ Platinum XTC v2 2048MB PC2-6400 DDR2 Dual Kit (4-4-4-15)
DUAL 768MB nVidia GeForce 8800 GTX PCI-Express VGA Card SLi Slot 2 (NVIDIA GeForce 7300 not available)
NEC AD5170A-0B 18X+/-DVD-R Dual Layer Dvd Writer- Black
DUAL 320Gb Maxtor DiamondMax21 SATAI/II 8Mb Cache HardDrive
3.5 1.44Mb Floppy Disk Drive -Black Facia-
33-in-1 USB2.0 Card Reader 3.5 Internal/External -Black
[some cooling peripherals]
DUAL 22 Inch Widescreen TFT Monitor
Logitech S500 5.1 Channel Speakers - Black
Logitech Premium Desktop Optical Black/Silver -oem-
Gold Eclipse System Warranty (3Year RTB + Premier30)

Cost 2150.78

The obvious thing that isn't really comprable is the processor, kind of important. But important to the tune of 1k? And everything else seems to exceed the Mac spec. Help me out here people. I'm going mad.

Anti-Distinctly
08-25-2007, 05:44 AM
Of course the Mac users will argue that you can't run OSX on the PC, but if the main pull for you isn't OSX, but a solid platform for running 3d software, the Mac doesn't really offer good value for the money.

As nice as OSX is, it's not the main reason I'm getting a new computer. I've said this to people before, all I want is what's best for the job (with the financial constraints obviously) - that job being in the 3d realm. It's difficult trying to bin all preconceptions of both Apple and MS. I've decided that I hate them both equally.

Anti-Distinctly
08-25-2007, 05:52 AM
old story: as long as you buy memory and extra HD capacity in the apple store pricing will never be competitive. we could also argue about if it is really necessary to buy an apple display (which is well designed, but does not always have the best display quality for it's price level - at least if you believe the results of many tests. if you buy those components elsewhere, at best market conditions, you will have a completely different balance. also, don't forget that the price difference between 3.0 ghz and 2.66 processor models is not really that small... as for the graphics card, the ATI X1900 with 512 Mb RAM is probably the best choice and not slower than the overly expensive top level nvidia, and costs around 350 USD more than the lame standard 7300 if you order in apple store, if i'm not wrong.

markus

Thanks for the input Markus. I'm sure you're quite right, but after my latest attempt at building a computer turned into an exceptionally long nightmare, I've kind of given up on the idea of building my own computer. Maybe add the odd piece of hardware though...

As for the graphics card, you can only buy the machine with a nVidia 7 series card in it. In fact, that card is the only one that is available - you can just add multiples of it.

The apple display was a hefty 400 too. But even taking account of that the price cannot touch that of the PC.

Furthermore, if there isn't a massive difference in the processor performance as neverko implied, then that goes against the mac yet again, as that was one of my biggest sticking points. Heck at that price difference, I'll see if I can get 2 of them on one MB (I just made that bit up - no idea if thats possible yet)

3dworks
08-25-2007, 06:08 AM
...As for the graphics card, you can only buy the machine with a nVidia 7 series card in it. In fact, that card is the only one that is available - you can just add multiples of it.
...

see below...

Anti-Distinctly
08-25-2007, 06:29 AM
see below...

Hmm, sorry markus, my bad. Must have missed that one. I usually stick with nVidia, but as I'm trying to reasses everything I'll check out the ATIs. But if people are having problems I'll tend towards nVidia as LW will be my main tool. At least to being with...

cresshead
08-25-2007, 07:42 AM
OK, this comparison may not be exact, but hopefully it will demonstrate my quandry...oh and before I start, I'm not down with the benefits of Xeon processors, are they really worth the money? With that in mind I speced (sp?) out the following machines...

From Apple Store - U.K.
==================

Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
4GB (4 x 1GB)
NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT 256MB (single-link DVI/dual-link DVI)
250GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
One 16x SuperDrive
Apple Keyboard & Mighty Mouse - British
Mac OS X (English)
Apple Cinema Display (20" flat panel)
Apple Cinema Display (20" flat panel)
AppleCare Protection Plan for Mac Pro - Auto-enroll
Five USB ports
Two FireWire 400 ports
Two FireWire 800 ports

Cost 3,144.99

From Eclipse computers
==================
Intel Core2 Quad Extreme X6850 3.0GHz LGA775 Processor
DUAL OCZ Platinum XTC v2 2048MB PC2-6400 DDR2 Dual Kit (4-4-4-15)
DUAL 768MB nVidia GeForce 8800 GTX PCI-Express VGA Card SLi Slot 2 (NVIDIA GeForce 7300 not available)
NEC AD5170A-0B 18X+/-DVD-R Dual Layer Dvd Writer- Black
DUAL 320Gb Maxtor DiamondMax21 SATAI/II 8Mb Cache HardDrive
3.5 1.44Mb Floppy Disk Drive -Black Facia-
33-in-1 USB2.0 Card Reader 3.5 Internal/External -Black
[some cooling peripherals]
DUAL 22 Inch Widescreen TFT Monitor
Logitech S500 5.1 Channel Speakers - Black
Logitech Premium Desktop Optical Black/Silver -oem-
Gold Eclipse System Warranty (3Year RTB + Premier30)

Cost 2150.78

The obvious thing that isn't really comprable is the processor, kind of important. But important to the tune of 1k? And everything else seems to exceed the Mac spec. Help me out here people. I'm going mad.


a couple of things i'll pick up on...

re mac list...you don't have to buy mac displays...they're quite capable of running any display..even those cheap dual 22''s you list in the pc...

with the mac you can upgrade to a dual quad core later on...with te pc your stuck with 1 cpu...

with the mac you can run windows as well as osx....with a pc you can't.

with the mac you get ilife which would be worth around 300 on pc if it existed...which it doesn't so you'd need to buy a load of apps for around that price [300]
video editor
photo lib/editor
website creator
audio recording studio /pod cast studio
dvd creator with some pro looking menu's

with the mac you get that rubbish mighty mouse!...go buy a microsoft/logitech mouse!:D

i'd also add that i use firewire for my camcorder...so a firwire card is needed for the pc..

also i use usb external Hd's on my pc's and mac's....cheaper and more portable.

avkills
08-25-2007, 07:56 AM
Need I remind people of the often numerous problems with ATI graphics drivers and LightWave?

Not saying that everyone has problems with ATI, but they certainly don't have a good reputation for drivers on the Windows platform.

My Mac at work has an old ATI graphics card and it runs LightWave under OSX without issues. But a lot of people has all sorts of issues with ATI cards and drivers for running LightWave.

At least consider if it's worth the trouble you could run into. Especially since the X1900 is now and old card, already replaced with newer tech (not necesserily better from what I hear).

This isn't a issue for the Mac, as Apple writes the drivers for the display cards.

If you rely on tons of third party plug-ins, which a majority of them are Windows LW only, and this is your bread and butter, it would seem obvious to get the less expensive PC; but then again, you can always run Windows on the Mac if you need to.

-mark

3dworks
08-25-2007, 08:08 AM
...
also i use usb external Hd's on my pc's and mac's....cheaper and more portable.

more portable? not sure what you mean. a bit cheaper than firewire 400 yes, but slower as well, and don't forget that you can't boot OSX from USB externals (but it's easy from firewire ones). just as another tip: if you never do video editing or using an array which needs maximum speed, you will not need the expensive firewire 800 type anyway, as with standard HD's you still do not reach the transfer rate limit of FW 400 afaik.

the only downside is that if you 're using it together with a pecee than this one needs to be equipped with FW.


Need I remind people of the often numerous problems with ATI graphics drivers and LightWave?

Not saying that everyone has problems with ATI, but they certainly don't have a good reputation for drivers on the Windows platform.

My Mac at work has an old ATI graphics card and it runs LightWave under OSX without issues. But a lot of people has all sorts of issues with ATI cards and drivers for running LightWave.

At least consider if it's worth the trouble you could run into. Especially since the X1900 is now and old card, already replaced with newer tech (not necesserily better from what I hear).

no problems here, fortunately - running smoothly with ATI X1900 cards. especially if you use the famous concurrent application starting with 'm' you have the least troubles with ATI cards, afaik. only thing to do is to buy and mount a cheap dedicated arctic or zalman cooling set for it and your macpro will be totally silent again.

markus

starbase1
08-25-2007, 01:27 PM
I've decided that I hate them both equally.

One of the most intelligent comments I have heard in the platform debate!

Nick

Steamthrower
08-25-2007, 02:05 PM
I think the benefits of a Mac are more intangible than physical. I am forced to use both PCs and Macs, mainly because everybody at the office uses PCs and run PC programs. I'd much rather use my Mac on everything. It just...doesn't always work out.

It really boils down to your personal preference. I'm a Mac. I work faster on a Mac, it is more intuitive to me, and therefore I make more money on a Mac. But others work better under Windows, or even Linux.

jpleonard
08-26-2007, 07:31 PM
I've been running Lightwave v9.0, v9.2, and v9.3 and haven't had any crashes or problems with my PC and Lightwave.

My system:
AMD Athlon 64 X2 5600+
2 GB DDR2 RAM
GeForce6100SM-M MotherBoard
NVIDIA GeForce Verto 8600GTS 256MB GDDR3
Windows Vista Home Premium(32bit) OS

Like I said never had problems with this configuration. I personally don't know much about macs, but good luck to you with the change.

Anti-Distinctly
08-27-2007, 03:14 AM
I think the benefits of a Mac are more intangible than physical. I am forced to use both PCs and Macs, mainly because everybody at the office uses PCs and run PC programs. I'd much rather use my Mac on everything. It just...doesn't always work out.

It really boils down to your personal preference. I'm a Mac. I work faster on a Mac, it is more intuitive to me, and therefore I make more money on a Mac. But others work better under Windows, or even Linux.

For me, at the moment at least, if the benefit's are intangible I cannot afford to spend money on such a thing. Maybe in the future, but not right now. I'm also more familiar with XP so I'm sure I'll work better there. Perhaps, when I get a chance to really get my hands onto a mac for a length of time...

Bytehawk
08-27-2007, 05:28 AM
you could always buy a mac mini and see if you like osx...

Sande
08-27-2007, 05:39 AM
My humble personal opinions on some of the fore mentioned issues are:

"Mac is expensive when compared to PC's" - Myth.
- Maybe in the past, but currently most Mac's are very reasonably priced, cheap even, when compared to PC's with similar configurations. Before buying my current dual quad MacPro I calculated how much a Windows PC with similar specs would have cost. I had to use a slower processor in PC (there were no 3GHz Clovertowns then in sale for PC's), but even then PC ended up costing 30euros more - and that was calculated so that I would build the PC myself, install OS and so on. Of course the PC also didn't had iLife or a warranty which covers and repairs the whole computer - individual components naturally had various warranties.
Fact is, that if you have the time and knowledge to build your own PC, you can often get away cheaper when using cheaper components, case, PSU and such and you can customize the machine to your liking much, much, more - so you don't pay for things you may not need, such as Firewire800 or aluminium case.

"Windows is unstable/OSX is rock solid." - Myth.
- I've had crashes with both, but then again usually both are very stable. Windows has crashed couple of times more, but this has usually been an issue with some hardware drivers - with Mac you don't have as many options regarding hardware (especially graphics cards), which is a drawback in it's own.

"OSX is a dumbed down OS for people with minimum knowledge." - Myth.
It is a bit naive to say that Unix-like-OS with FreeBSD-based microkernel is somehow dumbed down, especially as you can start Terminal and let your inner UNIX-guru take over. When you look at the features OSX offers in comparison to Windows, I feel, In my humble opinion, OSX offers a way more options for power-user. What is nice, is that these options (like UNIX, SSH, X-code, application scripting, automator, X window server, Apache and so on) are available to users out-of-the-box. Don't let the pretty GUI and ease-of-use to fool you. :)

"With Windows you have to constantly fear viruses and spyware." - Myth.
If you plan on using your Windows-PC without latest patches, firewall, virusprotection and you have internet connection always on, then yes, you will get viruses, trojans and spyware. That's really not a matter of if, that's a matter of when - and it usually happens sooner than later. But you don't have to fear viruses and other malware - even the built-in Windows firewall helps a lot, auto-update gets latest patches automatically and installing better firewall and virusscanner isn't that hard to do - and there are pretty good free options also.

I use both operating systems and there are features I like and features I hate in both of them. I love the option to use Windows with bootcamp and start Directory Opus when I get frustrated with Finder, or when I need some software that isn't available on Mac.

I enjoy using OSX more and my switch to Mac has been a very positive experience, but like said before - neither of them is perfect and your experiences may differ...

Steamthrower
08-27-2007, 05:50 AM
Sande, it's odd because I've noticed that XP has gotten a lot more stable over the past few years. It's also more about the users than anything else. In the last 4 years I have gotten 2 viruses, and those came over the network from someone else's computer. I have never had XP crash on me, but I've had to fix countless other people's computers.

But still, when doing data-intensive stuff (which is all I do on a computer), I have to hit Ctrl+Alt+Delete an awful lot on XP. I never have to do the equivalent on the Mac.

Sande
08-27-2007, 05:56 AM
I've noticed that XP has gotten a lot more stable over the past few years.
I agree - my current XP installation on PC has been pretty much rock solid in my typical use lately.

JohnMarchant
08-27-2007, 11:04 AM
As far as viruses go, mac's are just as suseptable to them its just no one writes them for mac's as pc's are more common. But if mac's sales increase you never know.

Ive used both. I like the mac but plugins for mac for lightwave are nowhere near as many as for the pc.

I tend to use the pc more for this very reason

toby
08-27-2007, 11:49 AM
Need I remind people of the often numerous problems with ATI graphics drivers and LightWave?

Not saying that everyone has problems with ATI, but they certainly don't have a good reputation for drivers on the Windows platform.

My Mac at work has an old ATI graphics card and it runs LightWave under OSX without issues. But a lot of people has all sorts of issues with ATI cards and drivers for running LightWave.

At least consider if it's worth the trouble you could run into. Especially since the X1900 is now and old card, already replaced with newer tech (not necesserily better from what I hear).
I haven't had a single problem since I got my G5 in 2003, and I haven't heard a single complaint on the forums for years, even during OpenGL discussions. Probably since LW7.5. I think it's a non-issue now.

Sande
08-27-2007, 12:39 PM
As far as viruses go, mac's are just as suseptable to them its just no one writes them for mac's as pc's are more common.
Simply put: Not true. :)
Naturally Windows is a good target for malware because it is so widespread, but the main reason for lack of serious virus threat on Mac can be found in the UNIX-architecture, which makes it difficult for viruses to install, spread and cause system wide damage.

cresshead
08-27-2007, 12:47 PM
i've seem quite a few 'worms' for mac...

cresshead
08-27-2007, 12:51 PM
I haven't had a single problem since I got my G5 in 2003, and I haven't heard a single complaint on the forums for years, even during OpenGL discussions. Probably since LW7.5. I think it's a non-issue now.

so you didn't read my posts about the abysmal viewport issues with the mac mini g4 which uses ati graphics?

lightwave 8 viewports are terrible on a mac mini in modeler making it all but unusable for modeling...my mac seat has stayed there stuck on lw 8 as there was never a fix for it:thumbsdow

verts are drawn so poor when selected that i can't use it....oddly enough
lightwave 7.5 has no draw issues on a mac mini g4

i'm not saying that windows is all roses but mac def has a bunch of ''issues''.

Sande
08-27-2007, 01:40 PM
i've seem quite a few 'worms' for mac...
Quite a few? Could you elaborate? Where? :)

Steamthrower
08-27-2007, 02:00 PM
lightwave 8 viewports are terrible on a mac mini

I've never tried LW on a Mac Mini but I sure don't want to try. It works fine on my MacBook Pro. And it has an ATI video card.

toby
08-27-2007, 10:16 PM
so you didn't read my posts about the abysmal viewport issues with the mac mini g4 which uses ati graphics?

lightwave 8 viewports are terrible on a mac mini in modeler making it all but unusable for modeling...my mac seat has stayed there stuck on lw 8 as there was never a fix for it:thumbsdow

verts are drawn so poor when selected that i can't use it....oddly enough
lightwave 7.5 has no draw issues on a mac mini g4

i'm not saying that windows is all roses but mac def has a bunch of ''issues''.
Yea it could've been 8.0, or maybe started in the 7.5 era and spilled over. I remember ATI issues back then because OSX had some OGL changes - or something like that? Anyway, I was worried about it when I bought the G5, was thinking I should be ready to swap for an nVidia, but nothing ever went wrong. Do you get white viewports or something? If you've got hardware and software from back then it doesn't surprise me you get the same problems, and I'm not saying there's *no* display issues, I just don't think there's any ATI-specific ones. Sounds like you had a LW problem anyway, if 7.5 works.

Puguglybonehead
08-27-2007, 10:24 PM
'Worms for Mac'? Haven't seen anything like that since about 1998 (circa OS 8.6, I believe). I've encountered absolutely no viruses at all since Mac went Unix (OS X onward), and I'd run it for a few years with no antivirus software either. And that's been with seeing a lot of hours on the `net. Only recently started using an antivirus program again, mostly out of courtesy to PC users, not wanting to be a carrier and all. :)

gerry_g
08-28-2007, 03:36 PM
Also, Macs will make you sterile...........and any other urban myth, all true!!, haven't had a virus in two to three years and even if I hadn't had anti-virus software it wouldn’t have done anything.........er, except infect any Windows boxes I might have emailed. so......no spywear, no Trojans, no worries