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View Full Version : Fprime's not alone now...[maya]



cresshead
08-04-2007, 06:36 PM
http://www.holomatix.com/products/rendition/rendition_ipr/

hmm...all the uniqueness of Fprime is looking like ending with some new render plugins for maya on their way...

plus m*d* has a sorta interactive thing...looks like the maya to lightwave for use with fprime may be ending for some studios in the near furture [price pending of course!]


still....interesting stuff!:thumbsup:

i feel we're going to have a very fun siggraph!...lots of new goodies!

777
08-04-2007, 06:44 PM
Interesting..thanks for the info. and that could be very useful to me :)

cresshead
08-04-2007, 07:08 PM
it's also due out for 3dsmax and xsi too...

Hmmm...interesting!

cresshead
08-04-2007, 07:26 PM
btw the demo beta is 'stand alone' an has a sample scene to play with...which is cool...they also ask on the forums if people want it developed for other apps....lightwave maybe?....Hmm!

and able to use mental ray shaders???

Matt
08-04-2007, 07:52 PM
Looks VERY similar to FPrime! Faster too by the looks of it. :(

hrgiger
08-04-2007, 08:03 PM
Looks VERY similar to FPrime! Faster too by the looks of it. :(

Who knows? He could be using a Quad Xeon for all we know. It looks like the following features aren't supported in this renderer yet:
Geometric lights
Hair shaders
Contour shaders
Sub surface scattering
Displacement maps on polygonal geometry
Light profiles

I wouldn't be surprised to see Fprime clones show up in more packages in the near future.

Matt
08-04-2007, 08:05 PM
Didn't show GI either, looked all raytraced to me

Matt
08-04-2007, 08:06 PM
Scratch that, it does

cresshead
08-04-2007, 08:47 PM
yeah looks like worley's advantage maybe at an end..which actually could be a VERY good thing...competition breeds better faster cheaper...
worley may give as the 'next step'

AbnRanger
08-04-2007, 08:48 PM
Cinema 4D R10 has one built in as well

AbnRanger
08-04-2007, 08:57 PM
it's also due out for 3dsmax and xsi too...

Hmmm...interesting!It doesn't look like the IPR is available for them...just the regular Rendition renderer.

cresshead
08-04-2007, 09:03 PM
if you read the forum they are in development but are slightly behind the ipr of maya's version...they're currently courting which of max and xsi should be made second priority for development after maya...

they also ask if other apps would like similar developments...such as houdini, cinema4d, lightwave, modo, messiah etc..

Philbert
08-04-2007, 09:30 PM
I don't see if it can save renders or animation. Maybe it's just a previewer? I don't see much about effects like particles or motion blur either. Regardless maybe this will give Worley even more reason to improve FPrime.

Andyjaggy
08-04-2007, 09:46 PM
Yes it is still hard to saw how comparable this is to F-Prime. It looked good but it was a rather limiting test that he ran it through.

voriax
08-04-2007, 10:39 PM
Shouldn't be surprised, really. I'm amazed that other programs still don't have an fprime-like plugin. I mean, fprime has been around for many years now, and there still isn't an equivalent for the other "higher end" programs?

I do recall seeing a similar plugin for RenderMan quite a while back. No idea what happened to it, though.

Matt
08-04-2007, 10:58 PM
Worley might have to wait until he's visited by aliens again, that's how he got the advanced code for FPrime the first time around!

:D

Nicolas Jordan
08-04-2007, 11:38 PM
Worley might have to wait until he's visited by aliens again, that's how he got the advanced code for FPrime the first time around!

:D

Ya, maybe the aliens accidentally left thier advanced rendering software behind and he just reverse engineered it and viola, FPrime. :thumbsup:

duke
08-05-2007, 01:29 AM
Looking at the comparisons i'd say it's about on-par with Fprime, I really doubt it's faster. They both seem to operate similarly.

moussepipi
08-05-2007, 03:14 AM
anyone try this plug in? maybe you can try a comparisons between fprime and holomatix about speed on the same scene. holomatix already support final gather. it should be faster than fprime in global illumation.

Pavlov
08-05-2007, 04:05 AM
LW is moving now, but still it's not solid enough to lose this advantage - its biggest one for sure.
Hope this will bring to some moves from Worley, NT or even better both together.

Paolo

alifx
08-05-2007, 04:34 AM
looks good and they are asking developing it for max and xsi.

If we want to see a competition lets vote for a version for Lightwave :P

cresshead
08-05-2007, 04:51 AM
also note that unlike worley this developer has a free beta/demo available for people to use and a forum to let users and future users have their input on the development [abit like lw open beta really]...that's a major difference to worley and the behind firmly shut development doors.

this single aspect will gain alot of new users who can 'try before they buy' and so spend their cash with confidence...

of course we do ot know the pricepoint as yet...could be cheaper/more expensive.

cresshead
08-05-2007, 05:06 AM
well yeah true enough...i'd add that on their list is 'hair and fur' in nr future for the rendition ipr renderer something that fprime doesn't do.

maybe a mentalray version for lightwave?....that would set the cat amongst the birds!

cresshead
08-05-2007, 05:09 AM
note the demo has a stand alone capability and has a simple sample scene to try for yourself.
loooks to me like someones idea of worley making fprime 'platform independant' was taken up
by someone else.

Pavlov
08-05-2007, 05:13 AM
Neverko - i agree.
I insist in saying NT should target industry standards like all other do, and not enforce its being an island. Not applying to open SDK for 3rd party engines imho is a mayor error, it's more important than some things put in 9.x to-do list.
Again loosing Fprime uniqueness would be plain bad, lot of people buy LW for Fprime even now. Dont know what Worley is cooking, but judging from Fprime 3 unstability it looks like he has other things to do. Let's see.

Paolo

RTSchramm
08-05-2007, 05:14 AM
At $1600 dollars, I don't see what the fuss is about. Fprime is a lot cheaper! I guess if you can afford Maya, you can also afford this too. Until the price comes down to around $500, I don't see any reason for Worley Labs to change their business scheme.

Rich

hrgiger
08-05-2007, 05:17 AM
Oh yeah, I forget to check the price. $1600? What a rip.

riki
08-05-2007, 05:20 AM
I'm not up to speed on other apps, but surprised it's taken this long. FPrime has been out for quite some time now.

cresshead
08-05-2007, 05:24 AM
Oh yeah, I forget to check the price. $1600? What a rip.

you might want to take a sip of coffee and prop your eyelids open a bit...
that $1600 is for a DIFFERENT product..that of BLAZE.
:thumbsup: :D

BLAZE is a interactive WEBSITE development app for including 3d objects and is already
available for max and lightwave...it's a totally DIFFERENT product.

BazC
08-05-2007, 05:25 AM
At $1600 dollars, I don't see what the fuss is about. Fprime is a lot cheaper! I guess if you can afford Maya, you can also afford this too. Until the price comes down to around $500, I don't see any reason for Worley Labs to change their business scheme.

Rich


Where did you find the price for Rendition? I can only find a price for Blaze which is $1600

cresshead
08-05-2007, 05:29 AM
price for rendition is yet to be announced.

Qexit
08-05-2007, 08:27 AM
...competition breeds better faster cheaper...
There certainly was a time in the past when that was true...but these days not nearly so much. Shareholder driven company's are happy with the 'same old-same old', 'pretty-much-the-same-as-everyone-else' and 'don't you dare harm our profits by cutting the price' approach. Cutting edge innovation just doesn't happen these days. If something new, exciting and different does appear (such as the original appearance of FPrime), then everyone else eventually gets around to producing something similar but no better for around the same price or more (if it has managed to add on a couple of bells and whistles). Failing that, the larger companies just buy up new, innovative products and either absorb them or put them out of the financial reach of most people .....or both (Motion Builder anyone ? :D ).

As for the new product, no mention (unless I've misunderstodd something) of progressive rendering of complete scenes just a single frame and no mention of network rendering...supported or otherwise :D Interesting to see someone finally coming up with a product to rival FPrime for another 3D app though, it's only taken them two and a half years :thumbsup:

cresshead
08-05-2007, 09:50 AM
true enough but their approach is platform independant ie for maya, xsi and max

i look forward to testing the max version once the beta is out and then seeing what the ''cost'' is.

AbnRanger
08-05-2007, 01:04 PM
true enough but their approach is platform independant ie for maya, xsi and max

i look forward to testing the max version once the beta is out and then seeing what the ''cost'' is.Yeah, same here. It seems that most of the 3rd Party renderers (for Max anyway) cost between $795-$995. I'd guess that this is probably where it will drop, as well...if it's a full-featured renderer like they are.

I just upgraded to finalRender Stage 1 R2
http://www.finalrender.com/products/products.php?UD=10-7888-35-788&PID=36
...and I'm going to keep bugging them about this Interactive Render, hoping that they can implement one into finalRender.

cresshead
08-05-2007, 01:18 PM
yeah i met edwin braun in 1999 at a show in london his company cebas has some amazing plugins.

AbnRanger
08-05-2007, 01:32 PM
Personally, I have found that finalRender outclasses Mental Ray from top to bottom, and I wish Max would dump the latter for the former, since it's much faster, more integrated, and has more features than any available Max renderer.
Additionally, Max could stand to include other Cebas plugs like PyroCluster (like C4D does), and GhostPainter (so that they would have legitimate Texture painting capability built in. That way, everythings integrated and cooperates nicely with each other.

If LW got render pass management and Bucket Rendering, it would be reasonably close to finalRender. But as it stands, having FPrime already in the stable is a huge plus for LW...not having to wonder when such an advance will come.

cresshead
08-05-2007, 01:36 PM
i bought matterwaves, pro optic suite, BOV and then final render stage 0...not really done much with them to be honest but matterwaves had some cool capabilities...I've not updated them to max 9...so they're stuck back on old max installs on max 3 and 4!

i'm finding mental ray not to be too bad of late...it's abit slow but then i'm using a old laptop 1.6ghz amd turion
but on the whole mental ray 3.5 is okay..using it for arch des interiors currently.

AbnRanger
08-05-2007, 01:39 PM
i bought matterwaves, pro optic suite, BOV and then final render stage 0...not really done much with them to be honest but matterwaves had some cool capabilities...I've not updated them to max 9...so they're stuck back on old max installs on max 3 and 4!

i'm finding mental ray not to be too bad of late...it's abit slow but then i'm using a old laptop 1.6ghz amd turion
but on the whole mental ray 3.5 is okay..using it for arch des interiors currently.I guess you'd qualify for an upgrade to fR Stage 1 R2...believe me, you'll be really impressed! That aQMC GI feature is awesome...really fast GI. Similar to some of LW 9.2's GI improvements

jin choung
08-05-2007, 01:42 PM
meh... competition is and always will be good.

copycats need a foot in the door so they lower their prices. originators need to innovate, cheapen or die.

EVENTUALLY, you get innovation and lower prices.

so by all means... let's bring on the competition! who will win my affection and my dollars?! woo me or die!

fight fight fight fight....

jin

p.s. if there is any curbing of the effects of competition, it's through the unexpected channel of piracy.

rampant piracy of rolls royces tends to nullify the attraction of low priced hyundais that can do a similar (if slightly less luxurious) job. heck, why pay any amount for a hyundai when you can get a rolls royce for free?

Stooch
08-05-2007, 01:55 PM
im down. the second there is a realtime preview render that supports volumetrics and hair is the one that i will put down money on regardless of price.

I sense that rendition will probablyh achieve this before fprime considering that lightwaves hvs are still relatively untouched and hair is nowhere to be seen. so i am happy that there are developments and i will be asking for this on the rendition forums for sure.


oh look!:

The following features are currently under development:

* Geometric lights
* Hair shaders
* Contour shaders
* Sub surface scattering
* Displacement maps on polygonal geometry
* Light profiles

looks like they are on it! and volume shaders are already supported.

wow, looks like lw might be shelved for me really soon :)

RedBull
08-05-2007, 04:09 PM
im down. the second there is a realtime preview render that supports volumetrics and hair is the one that i will put down money on regardless of price.

I sense that rendition will probablyh achieve this before fprime considering that lightwaves hvs are still relatively untouched and hair is nowhere to be seen. so i am happy that there are developments and i will be asking for this on the rendition forums for sure.


oh look!:

The following features are currently under development:

* Geometric lights
* Hair shaders
* Contour shaders
* Sub surface scattering
* Displacement maps on polygonal geometry
* Light profiles

looks like they are on it! and volume shaders are already supported.

wow, looks like lw might be shelved for me really soon :)

Totally agree, everyone has expected realtime-raytracing by now as FPrime has had a real lead on it.... This has saved LW for me in the last few years.

But as Hair/PFX and Volumetrics and others are increased to rendition and similar rendering systems, FPrime looks outdated, old and much less useful, as does LW itself.

And now that Mental Images have competition to their own MR renderer you can expect the next releases of MR to start to go for realtime as well...

It's a shame the others have been set up for 3rd party renderer's, as this now gives so much more choice to other 3D applications.

3Delight and Renderman are now also usable in XSI and Maya.
I'm already using XSI's region renderer for PFX, as LW just can't do it....
So it's getting a lot harder for me to do LW....

So sad to see LW just get left so far behind..... (sniff, sniff)

In a time where we don't even get OGL updates of Nodes, XSI and Maya get realtime Volumterics....
You Snooze, You Looze...

Imatk
08-05-2007, 04:55 PM
This is really cool :)

Thanks to the OP for this. I've been doing quite a bit of Maya lately and have longed for the ability to use FPrime and now it looks like I don't have long to wait.

alifx
08-05-2007, 05:30 PM
oh look!:

The following features are currently under development:

* Geometric lights
* Hair shaders
* Contour shaders
* Sub surface scattering
* Displacement maps on polygonal geometry
* Light profiles

looks like they are on it! and volume shaders are already supported.

wow, looks like lw might be shelved for me really soon


O_O
I didn't notice that really.......... please worley do something

I don't like to see LW shelved for me after all this time I spent with it :|

cresshead
08-05-2007, 05:41 PM
This is really cool :)

Thanks to the OP for this. I've been doing quite a bit of Maya lately and have longed for the ability to use FPrime and now it looks like I don't have long to wait.


you have ZERO to wait if your a maya user as the beta is available for that right now...

as for newtek> lightwave and worley>Fprime well we have siggraph VERy soon so we should see where newtek and worley are taking lightwave in the nr future.

around about 'now' lightwave and worley need to bring out some ''wow factors''
not catch-up's...leading stuff like Fprime was back a few years ago.

of course if you simply HATE maya,xsi and 3dsmax all these tools have no real interst at all.

:agree:

voriax
08-05-2007, 06:08 PM
But as Hair/PFX and Volumetrics and others are increased to rendition and similar rendering systems, FPrime looks outdated, old and much less useful, as does LW itself.


To be fair, this isn't due to Fprime's limitations but rather LW's inability to share all of it's data with fprime. This DOES make LW seem a bit behind the times, as we keep hearing that Worley is waiting for the LW SDK to become more compatible with Fprime. Like the whole nodes thing, WL was all up and ready to implement them in Fprime, but they couldn't until LW could share the node info properly with Fprime. (as I understand it)

However since Worley Labs created both fprime and sasquatch, it's a wonder that Sas hasn't been updated to the point where it can communicate with fprime and be renderable through it. They managed it with G2 after all......

Imatk
08-05-2007, 10:39 PM
you have ZERO to wait if your a maya user as the beta is available for that right now...

as for newtek> lightwave and worley>Fprime well we have siggraph VERy soon so we should see where newtek and worley are taking lightwave in the nr future.

around about 'now' lightwave and worley need to bring out some ''wow factors''
not catch-up's...leading stuff like Fprime was back a few years ago.

of course if you simply HATE maya,xsi and 3dsmax all these tools have no real interst at all.

:agree:

Yep just downloaded it... it's cool... very nice. Doesn't work with Mental Ray shaders but who cares at least it gives me what I've been wanting since I started using Maya :)

matttaylor
08-06-2007, 05:49 AM
Yep just downloaded it... it's cool... very nice. Doesn't work with Mental Ray shaders but who cares at least it gives me what I've been wanting since I started using Maya :)

Hi,

Thanks for trying Rendition, and for your feedback.

Holomatix Rendition does support mental ray shaders as well as Maya's own - in fact the majority of the examples on the benchmark page use them. If you're having any problems getting them to work, let us know what seems to go wrong - either here, or by emailing to [email protected] and we'll do our best to sort it out for you!

Rest Regards


Matt Taylor

Red_Oddity
08-06-2007, 06:00 AM
We can't get Renditions to do raytraced shadows, and it is behaving weird with 3d procedurals...
But, so far its a great workflow enhancing tool already.

safetyman
08-06-2007, 06:17 AM
I'm waiting for the day when we model in a fully rendered scene. Maybe FPrime v12.

Every time a new video card comes out, they tout "real-time" rendering and have a demo of a scantily clad female dancing around in all her fully rendered glory. You buy the card and the only real-time rendering you get is with the demo that came with it. The hardware and software companies need to come together on this.

Sorry to get off-topic a little bit.

cresshead
08-06-2007, 06:45 AM
well modeling with realtime render feedback is a limitation of the current lightwave workflow in that modeling is in a separate application...the ipr for maya, max etc you couldindeed model and see your render as you work..in lightwave you'd need to have 2 screens up and the hub working and keep refreshing the scene i reclon...not actually tried it with Fprime...may just do that later on to see.

Imatk
08-06-2007, 10:11 AM
Hi,

Thanks for trying Rendition, and for your feedback.

Holomatix Rendition does support mental ray shaders as well as Maya's own - in fact the majority of the examples on the benchmark page use them. If you're having any problems getting them to work, let us know what seems to go wrong - either here, or by emailing to [email protected] and we'll do our best to sort it out for you!

Rest Regards


Matt Taylor

Will do... thanks Matt.

I'm at work today so I'm going to let the powers-that-be know about this. You guys did a great job!

monovich
08-06-2007, 10:36 AM
I think the competition is great, but seriously, I doubt it's going to drive the price of FPrime down, nor should it. Come on, it's so cheap already! Worley deserves every penny. This type of software has changed the way I work in 3d so drastically, it's hard to quantify.

I'm happy for users of other platforms that they will now be able to enjoy the interactive goodness that I now take for granted.

If FPrime didn't work with nodes yet, however, my post would have an entirely different tone...

-s

RedBull
08-06-2007, 03:16 PM
I think the competition is great, but seriously, I doubt it's going to drive the price of FPrime down, nor should it. Come on, it's so cheap already! Worley deserves every penny. This type of software has changed the way I work in 3d so drastically, it's hard to quantify.

I'm happy for users of other platforms that they will now be able to enjoy the interactive goodness that I now take for granted.

If FPrime didn't work with nodes yet, however, my post would have an entirely different tone...

-s

Well if Rendition Holomatix, can render curves, hair and volumetric.... It makes FPrime look a little flat in comparison.

It seems XSI has gained many LW customers over the last few years, and this won't help them stay with LW.

I think Holomatix would be a great seller on the LW platform, simply because it can mimic Mental Ray, and as Mental Images has only shown interest in the other 3 3D applications, it would give LW users access to .mi setups and shaders.... (The others already have this feature) So i would still like to see this become a LW plugin.

vadermanchild
08-06-2007, 04:37 PM
I'm waiting for the day when we model in a fully rendered scene. Maybe FPrime v12.


V12

lets see that would be released around the year 2096 going by current development cycles? :)

Stooch
08-06-2007, 11:18 PM
To be fair, this isn't due to Fprime's limitations but rather LW's inability to share all of it's data with fprime. This DOES make LW seem a bit behind the times, as we keep hearing that Worley is waiting for the LW SDK to become more compatible with Fprime. Like the whole nodes thing, WL was all up and ready to implement them in Fprime, but they couldn't until LW could share the node info properly with Fprime. (as I understand it)

However since Worley Labs created both fprime and sasquatch, it's a wonder that Sas hasn't been updated to the point where it can communicate with fprime and be renderable through it. They managed it with G2 after all......

who cares about being fair. in the end its all about the Benjamin's, either you can out deliver the competition, or you cant. doesn't really matter why, to me at least.

Mr Rid
08-07-2007, 01:11 AM
Lightspeed Auto Interactive Lighting Preview used by ILM and Tippet Studio
http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/1280000/1276409/a25-ragan-kelley.pdf?key1=1276409&key2=7363606811&coll=ACM&dl=ACM&CFID=15151515&CFTOKEN=6184618

Stupid RAT Trick
http://halbertram.com/trick/index.html

archijam
08-07-2007, 01:48 PM
Rid:
Occlusion preview was superrr.

I appreciate that someone from the development team came right on in here and said hi - even if it's not under development for LW.

I don't think I've ever heard a peep from worley .. imagine if he came to the forums and said 'I need SDK'. Instantly thousands of users would petition Newtek ...

Is there any reason Worley Labs is more like a hidden Batcave than a development studio?

j.

voriax
08-07-2007, 06:10 PM
Lightspeed Auto Interactive Lighting Preview used by ILM and Tippet Studio
http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/1280000/1276409/a25-ragan-kelley.pdf?key1=1276409&key2=7363606811&coll=ACM&dl=ACM&CFID=15151515&CFTOKEN=6184618

Stupid RAT Trick
http://halbertram.com/trick/index.html

There's the RenderMan previewer I was talking about! Fast volumetric lights, and distributed rendering. That's what fprime needs! Mmmmm, fprime using multi-computers to render a single preview. *gurgle*

Lightspeed seems pretty impressive as well, if the times they mention are anything to go by.

mattc
08-08-2007, 01:12 AM
Maybe because of just that... he doesn't want a million people screaming down his neck... or screaming at NewTek.

This, of course, has happened in the past without Steve saying anything.

M

Mr Rid
08-08-2007, 01:51 AM
Is there any reason Worley Labs is more like a hidden Batcave than a development studio?

j.

Like any good superhero, Worley must maintain anonymity lest those close to him are made to suffer and his superpowers are undermined.

Dont you read comix?

Qexit
08-08-2007, 02:24 AM
Is there any reason Worley Labs is more like a hidden Batcave than a development studio?

j.Lol, from my personal experience, development studios that AREN'T like hidden Batcaves are the exception rather than the rule. Most keep what they are working on very well hidden until they have something they can actually demonstrate or release. I suspect that Newtek's liking for Public Betas, even though they carry the usual very restrictive NDAs, has allowed people to think this is the norm.....when it isn't :) Worley Labs just likes to operate in the more traditional way :thumbsup:

archijam
08-08-2007, 04:56 AM
That's called marketing :) He's here to sell his product, not to be your LightWave community friend.

If what he is selling as as good as it sounds, maybe I'll take the steak knives as well ... if it's worth hearing about, I appreciate hearing from the source. I find my friends at bus-stops.

Though come to think of it, he did get here fast ... like a vigilante or tow-truck driver scanning the police frequencies ..


Most keep what they are working on very well hidden until they have something they can actually demonstrate or release.

I take as example the above list of aspects under development of said-thread-topic. Since FPrime 1.2 the only major changes I can recall are stability and nodes ...

People will certainly go out and buy this previewer based on the promised development paths .. no industrial espionage dangers there ..

j.

Qexit
08-08-2007, 09:50 AM
I take as example the above list of aspects under development of said-thread-topic. Since FPrime 1.2 the only major changes I can recall are stability and nodes ...
...I think you missed out network rendering :thumbsup:

archijam
08-08-2007, 09:56 AM
...I think you missed out network rendering :thumbsup:
Sorry, indeed (missed that one because I've never had the machines to use it), it's a great feature. And I think that fact that you named only one feature speaks for itself.

Don't get me wrong, I love FPrime. But now that it has some 'competition', maybe the luxury of being secretive about it's future development cycle is over... and it's time for Newtek to acknowledge how much they owe to the existence of this plugin so far, and give Worley a bunch of flowers (or some SDK) ..

j.

Pavlov
08-08-2007, 10:04 AM
Actually LW owe its actual existence to Fprime, imho. Beside recent progresses, the gap between 7.5 and 9 could easily and probably definitely kill LW if it was not for Fprime.
I also hope some deal will happen here, i.e. like it happens for Max-CS.

paolo

archijam
08-08-2007, 10:21 AM
Edit limit.

I meant to add- Worley also needs to give a little if he want's to keep Fprime the groundbreaking plugin it's been. A standalone version, or adding G2 aspects of functionality? Who knows. But a Worley/NT partnership IMHO sounds like a good start...

j.

theo
08-08-2007, 10:31 AM
Actually LW owe its actual existence to Fprime, imho. Beside recent progresses, the gap between 7.5 and 9 could easily and probably definitely kill LW if it was not for Fprime.

With all due respect to my intelligent, extremely knowledgeable friend I think your statement is too dramatic. FPrime owes ITS actual existence to Lightwave.

FPrime certainly lends significant firepower to Layout but this has been diminished as of late, particularly with the advent of rendering engine upgrades, which I am thoroughly enjoying and employing.

FPrime will probably always hold top honors in the area of previewing but hardly to the point to where it safeguards the impending death of a major 3D application.

Qexit
08-08-2007, 10:36 AM
To be honest, I think FPrime has become something of an albatross round Steve Worley's neck. It is already much, much more than was originally intended, i.e. a one button realtime previewer (and you can blame/thank his Beta Testers for those additions). If it had remained at just that, then maybe it would have been possible by now to have volumetrics, hair, etc. appearing in it. Instead, it requires multiple render engines (the preview and render aspects use separate engines) across all available LW platforms which all have to be altered, modified and tested with each and every new feature. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr Worley is getting sick of the sight of the whole thing :compbeati and would love to be able to set it aside for a few months and get on with something else more interesting, such as Sasquatch 2.0. Remember, he is the development team at Worley Labs, so it's not like he can delegate the work to someone else.The problem is that his users have paid out good money for the product and they keep asking for more from this particular plugin. Give him a break :thumbsup:

theo
08-08-2007, 11:04 AM
It is already much, much more than was originally intended, i.e. a one button realtime previewer (and you can blame/thank his Beta Testers for those additions).

I tend to take your view.

There really is little need to even use FPrime for rendering, outside of previewing, since NT has added additional and very useful options to its GI rendering solution.

Pavlov
08-08-2007, 11:11 AM
No problem... afterall, i'm limiting to suggest what i think as user, really i cant pretend anything on "political" issues like these.
Theo, we have different povs here, knowing hundred of LW users (i've been very active on italian LW community,l years ago) i can say the large majority *of professionals* has been near to leaving and many did. Current development will change things but if it was not for Fprime i guess that 80% of pro users would have left before 9.0, including myself. With current LW's rendering things are different BTW, i'm just now playing with a nicely fast GI interior.


Back to work,
Paolo

theo
08-08-2007, 11:37 AM
BTW, i'm just now playing with a nicely fast GI interior.


Hehe... so am I. :D

pooby
08-08-2007, 12:40 PM
There really is little need to even use FPrime for rendering, outside of previewing, since NT has added additional and very useful options to its GI rendering solution.


GI isn't really an option in LW for animation until they figure out how to stop it fizzing, so if you want to use it on anything other than a still environment, you HAVE to use Fprime.

tektonik
08-08-2007, 02:45 PM
fprime is still way cheaper!

voriax
08-08-2007, 07:05 PM
After years of using it, I've never thought about it .... Does anyone know why it's called FPrime? What does it mean? What does the F stand for? Fast? Feedback?

RedBull
08-08-2007, 07:42 PM
After years of using it, I've never thought about it .... Does anyone know why it's called FPrime? What does it mean? What does the F stand for? Fast? Feedback?

F9 Happens to ryme with FPrime... And i believe there are some other more technical reasons too... ;)

Qexit
08-09-2007, 01:20 AM
After years of using it, I've never thought about it .... Does anyone know why it's called FPrime? What does it mean? What does the F stand for? Fast? Feedback?Funnily enough, I did ask Mr Worley about that around the time it first appeared. This was his response:

"Fprime was just a working name. It's obviously a rhyme of "F 9". It's
actually a math joke, since in math equations, you often use a "prime"
symbol [a ' mark] on a variable to denote it as being changed or modified.
Like X'=X + 1"

I believe the name just stuck as noone could think of anything better :D

UbiGuy
08-09-2007, 04:23 PM
To be honest, I think FPrime has become something of an albatross round Steve Worley's neck. It is already much, much more than was originally intended, i.e. a one button realtime previewer (and you can blame/thank his Beta Testers for those additions). If it had remained at just that, then maybe it would have been possible by now to have volumetrics, hair, etc. appearing in it. Instead, it requires multiple render engines (the preview and render aspects use separate engines) across all available LW platforms which all have to be altered, modified and tested with each and every new feature. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr Worley is getting sick of the sight of the whole thing :compbeati and would love to be able to set it aside for a few months and get on with something else more interesting, such as Sasquatch 2.0. Remember, he is the development team at Worley Labs, so it's not like he can delegate the work to someone else.The problem is that his users have paid out good money for the product and they keep asking for more from this particular plugin. Give him a break :thumbsup:

You're right. Same thing happen to Cantarcan. He's alone and he can't delegate... Upgrades are slow to come. Don't forget LW market is a small one... They certainly don't have big incomes like 3DSMax developers...

Newtek made so much change in his renderer (cameras, shaders, GI...)... It's certainly difficult to have a stable version for the developers... NewTek have made a good move with his renderer upgrade. But the renderer one of the most sensible part of any 3D software. Maybe a lot of Cantarcan and Worley features have been disable by the recent LW upgrades.

I don't understand why Newtek did not integrate more third party plugins. At least, I hope Newtek interact a lot with them...

I have to admit... I slowly migrate to 3dsMax and Maya over the time. I do VFX and I can't wait to see "Event Base PFX, History/Stack, Good volumetric shader, software unification, etc..." I expect a lot for the 10.x cycle!

akademus
08-09-2007, 07:38 PM
Just plug Mental Ray into LW and let Steve W update Fprime for it and I'll be happy!

StereoMike
08-10-2007, 09:53 AM
What's so great about MR? I'm pondering over getting XSI essentials as long as it got Syflex and hair for the old price.
The CA is much better, but in the end I want to light and render everything in LW (maybe for Hair I have to use XSI). What's the advantages of MR?

mike

alvin_cgi
08-10-2007, 06:25 PM
FYI, Matt has metioned(from CGTalk) the price for Rendition is similar to FPrime, read below...

"Regarding the price, we haven't made a final decision yet, but I can say that it won't be any more expensive than FPrime."

Rendition looks like its either better or equal to FPrime!:thumbsup: , of course FPrime still rock anyway!


fprime is still way cheaper!

AbnRanger
08-12-2007, 11:43 PM
What's so great about MR? I'm pondering over getting XSI essentials as long as it got Syflex and hair for the old price.
The CA is much better, but in the end I want to light and render everything in LW (maybe for Hair I have to use XSI). What's the advantages of MR?

mikeIt's not the old price anymore. It's now $3000, yet with Syflex, hair and fur.
Distributed Bucket Rendering would be one advantage of MR...but beyond that, I don't see any significant advantages over LW's native render.

RedBull
08-13-2007, 01:38 AM
It's not the old price anymore. It's now $3000, yet with Syflex, hair and fur.
Distributed Bucket Rendering would be one advantage of MR...but beyond that, I don't see any significant advantages over LW's native render.

It does do a few things better.

Instancing to hair primitives, implicit surfaces, subpixel displacement,
more extensive shader programmability and access, CG Shaders, Multipass Rendering, Stuff like Caustics and volumetrics are also a little better IMO...
It's more configurable, but also it's has to be configured....

The real big change and thing that will drag me towards MR, is there shader creation platform MetaMill, targeting Renderman ease of shader creation.

http://www.mentalimages.com/2_4_mentalmill/index.html

pooby
08-13-2007, 02:21 AM
It's now $3000

actually its NOW $1999, if you get in early

-EsHrA-
08-13-2007, 03:36 AM
mr for lw would be schweet :)


mlon

Red_Oddity
08-13-2007, 03:55 AM
MR can be insanely fast at times, even with the sh!tty implementation that Maya has.
Heck, we did some tests using HVs in LW and Overburn with MR volumetrics, MR renders under 1 minute what takes LWs HV 10 minutes.

On the other hand, Motionblur in MR can be insanely slow, even for mediocre results, and the raytrace AA leaves some things to be desired at times aswell.

But i say bring it on, the more the merrier.

StereoMike
08-13-2007, 04:35 AM
actually its NOW $1999, if you get in early
Yep, if you buy until September, 6th :)

muaharharhar....

mike

alifx
08-13-2007, 05:44 AM
I would like to see Render Passes before thinking of Mental Ray for LW

it seems that Rendition is going to have some Features in a short time that Fprime still doesn't have them from years.

that's not because of Fprime I believe it's because Lightwave's SDK



:)
ali

lots
08-13-2007, 05:09 PM
Who knows? He could be using a Quad Xeon for all we know.
Posted at the bottom of the demo video:

Rendering on AMD Athlon64 X2 4200+ (2.2Ghz) 2GB Windows XP