PDA

View Full Version : History of the Amiga - @arstechnica



mattclary
08-01-2007, 05:36 AM
http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/a-history-of-the-amiga-part-1.ars

ben martin
08-01-2007, 06:57 AM
Oh, boy! I really miss it! :dito:

BeeVee
08-01-2007, 07:01 AM
I started reading and thought "This is Deathbed Vigil, I already have the tape" but then got on to the next page... :D Very good and I'm eagerly awaiting the next instalment.

B

Verlon
08-01-2007, 07:50 AM
I still miss my amiga :(

creacon
08-01-2007, 01:25 PM
Have a little patience, in ten years or so they will add someting like AREXX to Windows and maybe we will have datatypes, so every graphics software doesn't have to spend time implementing new formats. :)

What I miss the most is just switching it off without waiting.

creacon







I still miss my amiga :(

Sensei
08-01-2007, 02:00 PM
What I miss the most is just switching it off without waiting.

Because it didn't had virtual memory, and file saving buffers were really small and quickly flushed to disk.. Modern smarter technologies require better treating computer than just power off.. ;)

Titus
08-01-2007, 04:43 PM
This book is also a good reading:

On the Edge: The Spectacular Rise And Fall of Commodore (http://www3.addall.com/New/compare.cgi?dispCurr=USD&id=7854&isbn=0973864907&location=10000&thetime=20070801154244&author=&title=&state=AK)

KSTAR
08-02-2007, 10:19 AM
I still have my original 2500 decked out with a Toaster,sunrize 16 card, Par and all the other Amiga goodies except and 060 card. I even have a Ham-E+ card....er umm box

I of course I now have PC's with a VT4.6 LW 9.2 but I will never get rid of my Amiga. When rendering I still run a few frames through Adpro for old time sake and out of respect from were I came from :thumbsup:

Running LW, Mirage (aka TV Paint Jr. on steroids) and Directory Opus 8.3 makes me feel like Im still using my Amiga

BeeVee
08-03-2007, 01:38 AM
*pshphpp* DOpus 8.3? Us *real* Amigans have DOpus 9... :D Mind you I wish I'd had the space to keep my Amiga, I certainly envy you that... :(

B

Carm3D
08-03-2007, 10:25 AM
Heh.. That colourized picture of Jay Miner. I think that was my picture (I colourized it). I was probably 22-24 years old at the time.

pumeco
08-03-2007, 05:25 PM
Yeah, I really miss my Amiga as well. I don't think any computer on earth even comes close to being as missed as the Amiga. I doubt we'll ever see it's like again. It always felt like it was the result of development by people who love computers, and to that end, I was a die-hard fan up until they sold it to those PC manufacturers. I just knew as soon as I read about it...

...bye bye Amiga!

ShawnStovall
08-03-2007, 05:38 PM
Why is the Amiga so special? Please fill me in.:)

*Pete*
08-03-2007, 05:55 PM
Why is the Amiga so special? Please fill me in.:)

the first computer for many of us...

when i first changed to a PC (486) and windows and DOS, i got shocked over how bad a PC and Windows was in comparison.

robewil
08-03-2007, 06:30 PM
Why is the Amiga so special? Please fill me in.:)There are many reasons for many people. What's significant here is that for several years, it was the only computer that ran Lightwave. Versions 1, 2, and 3 were Amiga only.

KSTAR
08-03-2007, 09:26 PM
Why is the Amiga so special? Please fill me in.:)

It was an amazing piece of hardware and software. Many computer industry first came from the Amiga. Many of those seem to mysteriously get looked over when reading about the history of milestones of computing. We Amiga users no the truth though :)

For me personally it was the funnest and most joyful computer experience I have had to date. The very nature of the the Amiga was to make you want to explore and learn. It was a very acessible machine. Most Amiga users knew their machines hardware and OS inside out. One reason for this was the very efficient and tight OS. No bloatware when it came to the Amiga. Due to the lack of support from Commodore the Amiga made a lot of its users very advanced computer users because we had no other choice but to know our machines and support each other.

As mentioned above no Amiga no LightWave, Toaster, Truespace, Elastic Reality,Cinema 4D, Mirage to name a few. Some of those packages went by another name in their original Amiga form

Oh yeah Mulitasking, plug and play, 32bit OS, Custom chips,SCSI standard, No need for drivers,multiple resolution screens, Ram drive, plus much much more, also the Amiga 2000 was perhaps the most expandable computer ever made, and this was all in the late 1980's :thumbsup:

ShawnStovall
08-03-2007, 10:47 PM
:eek: ... wow. That's a lot of mile stones... Sounds more capable then Vista.:thumbsup:

KSTAR
08-03-2007, 11:15 PM
:eek: ... wow. That's a lot of mile stones... Sounds more capable then Vista.:thumbsup:

Im not going to touch that one with a 10 foot pole ;)

In my younger Amiga vs PC days I could have rattled off a 20 page response to statement like that :p

Cageman
08-05-2007, 10:54 AM
Why is the Amiga so special? Please fill me in.:)

Ohhh... there so much to say...:) I think the main thing with Amigas is the fact that they are so fun to use. The OS and hardware really feels merged, and I am
still impressed with how much an Amiga can do, comparing the hardware with modern stuff.

Oh well... fun days!

icon kid
08-05-2007, 11:42 AM
Ahhhh -- the Amiga. I did my first animations on it back in '91 using VideoScape 3D on an Amiga 500-- when you had to plot the vertices on graph paper before manually entering their values. Tedious indeed but I didn't care how long it took to build my models -- just thankful that there was some way to do it. Then came Lightwave for the Amiga which was a godsend. I really miss LW 4 and the PAR board I had on my Amiga 2000. I now use LW 7.5 on a PC.

Ztreem
08-05-2007, 11:48 AM
Old good memories...maybe I should pickup my old Amiga 1200 from the closet. :)

Sarford
08-05-2007, 05:49 PM
I first had a Atari 512 but quickly sold that to buy a Amiga 2000. I used this thing for many years. It came with only 1 floppy but I bought a second floppy drive and in later years even got a 10Mb harddisk and controller card for it.

I also once bought a second hand 68020 processor card for a few hunderd quid on a fair but when I came home I found out the thing was broken :(

One of the first expansions I bought was DigiView (a NewTek product!), a video digitiser with the famous colorwheel, digitise a picture in three easy steps, red filter, green filter and blue filter :D
I used my amiga with a secondhand videocamera (without a tape unit) and DigiView for years as a pencil test unit at home. That always gave a feeling of real luxury becouse a few years before that would have been an impossible thought.

Finaly I sold the whole lot for $900,- in I think 1995. The Amiga was falling behind the competition at that time and commodore was dead. I needed the money to buy a PC. Now I wish I kept my A2000 :(

Ztreem
08-05-2007, 05:57 PM
I actually bought my last Amiga as late as 1997, it was a powerPC combined with a 68060. I bought it for around 5200$ and sold it a half year later for less then half the amount.

Sensei
08-05-2007, 06:09 PM
I still have my Amiga 1200 with Apollo 1240 (Motorola 68040 at 33 MHz) with Elbox's Mediator PCI busboard with Voodoo 3 PCI 16 MB graphics card and 2x 3.2 GB HDDs at my left hand, and on right hand there is PegasOS PowerPC G3 600 MHz with 512 MB ram, with also Voodoo3 but AGP.. PegasOS with MorphOS is probably the fastest starting up computer/OS, it's faster fully loaded & setuped after power on, than PC/Windows from hibernation.. ;)

BeeVee
08-06-2007, 02:44 AM
Things I'd really like to have from my Amiga on my PC:

1. Directory Opus - oh wait a minute I have got that! :D
2. SnoopDOS
3. Booting in less than 20 seconds and the ability to switch off when I want, without having to shut down.
4. Typing accented characters without needing to memorise their Alt-numpad four character codes
5. Localisation so that if I need to use a French system, or German, or whatever other, for support I can just change my system over and all applications will launch in the language of my choice (as long as they support localisation); without having to reboot, or reinstall Windows :eek:
6. So many, many more...
B

Sensei
08-06-2007, 06:00 AM
2. SnoopDOS

Check out FileMon
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sysinternals/utilities/filemon.mspx

BeeVee
08-06-2007, 06:31 AM
Cool, that's great Sensei! Do you know if it runs during boot in a silent, file -creating mode? I've got to try and find out what is interrupting boots for me... ;)

Edit: Gah, no longer available as a download! :twak:
B

dwburman
08-06-2007, 06:39 AM
I miss the old Amiga days... the community... the snobbery - knowing you had something special - the RAM disk (not that i'd use it anymore) - the fact that I knew what the heck all those OS files were. Not to mention the snappiness of the mouse pointer.

I don't miss waiting for GIF images to slowly load in tho. :)

Sensei
08-06-2007, 06:49 AM
Cool, that's great Sensei! Do you know if it runs during boot in a silent, file -creating mode? I've got to try and find out what is interrupting boots for me... ;)

Have no idea, never tried it..



Edit: Gah, no longer available as a download! :twak:
B

It downloaded fine here.. Link is at bottom of that site.. http://download.sysinternals.com/Files/Filemon.zip
sysinternals.com has also others monitoring tools..

mattclary
08-06-2007, 06:51 AM
:eek: ... wow. That's a lot of mile stones... Sounds more capable then Vista.:thumbsup:

That's not really saying much... :twak:

Lightwolf
08-06-2007, 08:31 AM
Loading .gif files was slower than rendering an average GI scene in LightWave 9.2 :p
Not on my 060 ;)

Which reminds me, I'll need to set it up again one day...

Cheers,
Mike

SBowie
08-06-2007, 08:37 AM
Overall, the Amiga was so much cooler than its contemporaries it would be hard to know where to begin. And the community was even cooler ... an eclectic mix of geniuses, humanitarians, artists and other creative types, quick learners, and the odd nutbar for color. It was an extraordinarily egalitarian, creative and generous group, traces of which can still be found here and there in other communities. Many of us would likely be doing something else today were it not for those influences.

erikals
08-06-2007, 09:01 AM
Still love it :)

DeluxePaint, Dopus, Scala, Multitasking (the multitasking was super)
+running animation on top of a video in Realtime (Amiga only)

also the games,..
-Another World
-Flashback
-Myst
-Superfrog
-Pang!
-Zool
-SWIV (Silkworm 4) Love that game
-Ironman
-Lotus
-Desert Strike
-It came from the Desert

...the list goes on :)

We actually stopped using Amigas around 2000
(belive it or not, only for cruiseship updates though, using Scala/ DPaint)

NVentive
08-06-2007, 09:33 AM
Yes, knowing what the OS stuffs were was good -- looking at all the gunk in Windoze makes me feel alienated. What I miss most about the Amiga days, though, is the platform stability. The machine always either did what asked it to do, or at least tried real hard. It also didn't do things that you didn't ask it to do, and I always felt like I was on solid ground. The PC stuff we're using now feels like just the opposite -- if it feels like doing something, it just does it. My new machines are much more powerful, but my relationship with my tools is now pretty adversarial. I'm doing more, but much of the fun is gone.
I still have not updated the pictures of my suite on my web page. My 2, 3, & 4K
machines are pretty much front & centre on those old pics. They're still around, but they are off to one side and do not get used much any more. They still work great, though.....sigh.

Is there anyone who actually LIKES windows?

pumeco
08-06-2007, 09:58 AM
Why is the Amiga so special? Please fill me in.:)

Aaaaaaaaah, I remember her well, Amiga was my one true love.

I remember the days when I'd hurry home from school just to to be with her as soon as possible. There she was, day after day, night after night, sprawled accross my desk like the seductive goddess she was, just waiting for me to insert something (easy guys, I'm talking floppies here). I remember the long nights we spent together playing Lemmings and Shadow Of The Beast. And the way she'd make funny little clicking noises whenever her drive was empty. You just can't get over stuff like that, and to make thinks worse, I can still smell the newness she gave-off whenever she'd been running for a while.

LAV
08-06-2007, 10:56 AM
why Amiga was so great...

hmmm.... you could touch every bit in her hardware and OS and she let you enter in her dungeons. In C and Assembler (remember Lattice C and Aztec C !!??).

I saw the faster Conway Life implementation ever seen, on Amiga, using 'her' custom old chip, the holy blitter.

And the best games ever: Powermonger and DungeonMaster.

And my first 3D app: Sculpt 3D then upgraded in Sculpt Animate 4D

And my first net connection. Not WWW, just an Italian regional net. With modem running at 1200 bps max.

I miss my old Amiga feeling :bangwall:

KSTAR
08-06-2007, 10:58 AM
It was an extraordinarily egalitarian, creative and generous group, traces of which can still be found here and there in other communities. Many of us would likely be doing something else today were it not for those influences.

I agree with you 100% there Steve :thumbsup:

Cageman
08-06-2007, 11:21 AM
I still have my Amiga 1200 with Apollo 1240 (Motorola 68040 at 33 MHz) with Elbox's Mediator PCI busboard with Voodoo 3 PCI 16 MB graphics card and 2x 3.2 GB HDDs at my left hand, and on right hand there is PegasOS PowerPC G3 600 MHz with 512 MB ram, with also Voodoo3 but AGP.. PegasOS with MorphOS is probably the fastest starting up computer/OS, it's faster fully loaded & setuped after power on, than PC/Windows from hibernation.. ;)

Sweet stuff! Unfortunately I don't have my expanded A1200 anymore. But I have a Pegasos G3. And yeah... MorphOS boots amazingly fast!

ivanze
08-06-2007, 11:49 AM
I bought an Amiga 1000 in 1987, and I still remember it could be reading or writing a Floppy and you could continue working without the Amiga slowing down like windows do when you access a floppy. That multitasking was great.

Lightwolf
08-06-2007, 12:26 PM
In C and Assembler (remember Lattice C and Aztec C !!??).

Remember DICE (http://www.obviously.com/)? :D

Cheers,
Mike

erikals
08-06-2007, 12:55 PM
List of a couple(!) of Amiga games
http://hol.abime.net/hol_search.php?&Y_released=1991&af=0-9&af=A

Still have my A500 ;)

walfridson
08-06-2007, 03:48 PM
Still got a A600 with 30MB hd. Amos 3D, boxed and all. Very nice :)
"How fast is Amos 3D? The car racing sequence speeds along at 16 frames per second!"

Sarford
08-06-2007, 05:53 PM
Anyone remember Oblitorator? Now that was a cool game, even for todays standards it looks swell. And Barbarian? From the same company called Psychnosis (very cool logo!). I could play that game to the end and then back to the beginning again without dying once. Man, I've waisted some time on that Amiga. :D

Bog
08-06-2007, 06:32 PM
http://www.cgsphere.com/media/submissions/thumb_mid/456982e333428.jpg

*bows his head and sighs*

Maybe it's time to let go of the past. Maybe it's just time to remember that it's us, not the computer, that's important.

Maybe it's time to let go.

SBowie
08-06-2007, 06:52 PM
Maybe it's time to let go."I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that." - HAL 9000

cresshead
08-06-2007, 08:44 PM
LOL!

never was an amiga owner...i was an atari st user for my music [trackman32]
sequencer dual midi ports...but amigas were cool too!

never let go!
..i still have my atarist and my atari jaguar!
now use garageband [mac mini] for my music composition
and a ninendo ds for games..

pumeco
08-07-2007, 02:06 AM
What's a ninendo? :D

Bog
08-07-2007, 03:34 AM
What's a ninendo? :D

A device for burning off spare electricity while you're waiting for a test-render ;)

byte_fx
08-07-2007, 10:52 AM
Wonder why the guy didn't mention the much rumored hit that was supposedly placed on one of the Commode/Amiga execs.

Apparently the guy bought the remains with announced intentions of continuing the line.

Had ads going trying to sell off the "last of the inventory" pending reopening production. When the boxes arrived they had bricks in them. At least that's what several magazines reported.

Alas Amiga - ye deserved a better fate.

I still have, packed away in storage, a 512. two A2000's and two A4000's with 060 WarpEngine accelerators and Fujitsu 1 GB hard drives.

Woefully underpowered even by 1995 (Windows 95 on a 133 mhz Pentium with 6 gb SCSI hd box) standards but the Amiga OS is still remembered as one of the best I've ever used. And lightyears ahead of anything available at the time.

If someone could brush it a bit with some modern cons and wrap a dual quad core system around it ...

And do it properly with key apps support .... oh baby.

Both Vista and OS X Leopard would be facing some very serious competition.

byte_fx

Bog
08-07-2007, 10:56 AM
Can't help but notice that it's the same song I'm singin' about, oh random example, Firefly.

Just once I'd like to be on the winning side, rather than just the right side. This is turning into a recurring theme in my life....

SBowie
08-07-2007, 11:09 AM
Just once I'd like to be on the winning side, rather than just the right side.And yet, I suspect that is not exactly true, when you reflect on it...

I would be surprised if you are not the sort who - at the end of the day - would prefer to be on the losing side when the alternative is plainly inferior. Perhaps one could consider instead subscribing to "If only the right side was also the winning side much more often" If really forced to choose, personally I'd prefer to have backed the side that really should have won, than lend my support the 'loser who did.' ;)

Bog
08-07-2007, 12:13 PM
Heh. Thanks for the implied compliment. Yeah, suffice it to say, I'd just be a lot happier if the Right Side was the Winning Side a little more often.

dwburman
08-07-2007, 01:46 PM
I had an A500, an A1000, an A600 and an A1200. I still have the A1200 with an 030 upgrade card, a 135MB HDD and I think 4 MB of RAM

I either gave or sold the A600 to my nephews and later brokered a deal online with someone to sell it to him. I sent the computer and never received payment. bummer.

The A1200 I have is one I bought after the collapse of Commodore and before the ESCOM models. I waited months for that thing to come in and when it did I found the composite out only did black and white. I think it was a PAL version and I'm in the US.

Ah, the old days with the A500 when I'd invite the neighbors over to play games and then make them watch demos.... poor kids.

lede
08-07-2007, 05:10 PM
Ah the good old Amiga. I still have my A2000 and A4000 not sure of their configuration anymore since their just a dust collector now. I should clean them out some time and boot them up. I remember when I added my first hard disk drive to the A2000 and got the OS installed. It would take 13 seconds from flipping the switch to seeing the OS ready for action.

It brough a lot of joy to me when I was younger and taught me a lot of programming skills that keeps my fridge full. Lost of fond memories but alas I doubt we will ever see it rise like the phenox it should of been.

-Lee

-FP-
08-08-2007, 09:53 AM
The AMIGA allowed me to learn the basics of animating digitally and composing music with a computer at a small fraction of what it would have cost for a PC outfitted with equivalent graphics and sound, and the hardware and OS were joys to use. My AMIGAs are fondly remembered - and they held their resale value very well. When it was time to eBay my hot-rodded but no longer used Amiga 1200 setup a few years ago, I got almost as much for the stuff as I paid for it ten years earlier. I still have a stock 500 in its original box in the closet. Hanging on the wall by my desk for no good reason is what may have been the first product to bear the AMIGA brand name, a tiny joystick.
http://members.shaw.ca/pcollard/pstick.jpg

If you liked DPAINT, check out a PC program called PRO MOTION (http://pcwin.com/Multimedia___Design/Pro_Motion/index.htm). It's a 256-color paint and animation program that is functionally identical to DPAINT, right down to the keyboard shortcuts. An advantage of the PC version is you no longer get "out of memory" errors when creating or using large animbrushes, and your available, visible screen resolution is much larger. Sorry, no HAM mode!

A couple of years ago I posted some random DPAINT work from the old days:
DPAINT ANIMS (http://www.archive.org/details/AMIGA)

Here's an OCTAMED tune, making use of that oldschool AMIGA 4-track, 8-bit audio (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1u9mw/FRANK%20P%20AMIGA%20MUSIC.mp3).

Cageman
08-08-2007, 11:36 AM
Well... I do use WinUAE... before I sold my very expanded A1200 (E/BOX Tower, Blizzard 1260 w. SCSI-II controller, 128MB ram, Mediator etc, etc) I made a complete backup of all contents on all harddrives. :) I run the "same" machine nowdays on a PC. Really not the same thing, but at least I can have some true computer fun! :)

Bog
08-08-2007, 01:11 PM
Well... I do use WinUAE... before I sold my very expanded A1200 (E/BOX Tower, Blizzard 1260 w. SCSI-II controller, 128MB ram, Mediator etc, etc) I made a complete backup of all contents on all harddrives. :) I run the "same" machine nowdays on a PC. Really not the same thing, but at least I can have some true computer fun! :)


*snigger* I had a laptop with an obscene panel, 1920x1280 or something, and of a quiet rendering-type day at the British Library, I was noodling with UAE on it... and got Workbench 3 running at that res, having convinced UAE it had a Picasso UberPlus installed....

Down on bended knee I go, laptop help over my head! Regularfry and a cow orker start doing the "we're not worthy!" bow before this refulgent wonder...

...just as this very, very normal lawyer girlie from downstars walks into the otherwise-empty office.

*koff*
*blush*
*giggle*

[i]Not[/i[ helping the international reputation that we 3D types have for being a bit... odd...

erikals
08-08-2007, 03:34 PM
USB version joystick ;) gotta get one
http://www.epinions.com/Speed_Link_Competition_Pro_Joystick

Bog
08-08-2007, 03:35 PM
Yeah, I have a couple of them. Euromax Competition Pro, it's called in Blighty - and it's just, simply, the best digital stick ever made.

Bliss.

akademus
08-09-2007, 08:53 PM
C64, C128, A500...
hmmm... happy days!

still remember when got 5.25 floppy drive for C64 it was heavy and huuuuge thing, but woohoo, no more tapes :) Just freakin' awesome

archiea
08-10-2007, 01:01 AM
there was an Ikea commercialthat i jsut saw, called "land of beige' which cycled through the last few decades of beige things to contrast the colors in the Ikea inventory i guess. however, oneof th eitems featured int he beige section was an amiga 2000 computer!!! the timing of seeing an amiga on TV, albeit without the labels and this post of the article was so odd!.. I wonder if they knew which computer they were doing and if it was an inside joke. I will say that the Amiga was one of the more beige computers of that time.. so it may have just been that...

BeeVee
08-10-2007, 03:48 AM
Part two (http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/a-history-of-the-amiga-part-2.ars) is there to read, and it's getting very interesting.

B

gerry_g
08-10-2007, 10:10 AM
Amiga 2000 was the first comp I ever fooled around on, was totally computer illiterate at the time ( not sure I’m that much more literate now), didn't think much of it or computers in general back then, if only I'd known better.....still the Ars piece is a good read

Cageman
08-10-2007, 11:03 AM
If you are interrested of Amigas and demos, you should check this out:

http://hangar18.campus.luth.se/~cageman/amiga/tbl-starstruck.mpg

It is 204MB in size, but it is worth the wait if you want to see what can be done on a 060/AGA Amiga today. :) It was shown using WinUAE, and one can argue that the WinUAE version is much faster than running it on an actual Amiga, but, according to the people who have seen both versions, only a couple of the effects vere notably faster on WinUAE; mostly the speed were the same...

EDIT: http://hangar18.campus.luth.se/~cageman/amiga/

tbl-starstruck.mpg is the one...

Lapsuus was released a bunch of years ago by the same developers that creates Future Mark for PC... :)

avkills
08-10-2007, 11:13 AM
I do miss the Amiga, a truly awesome machine. We still have a 4000 with a toaster here at work, maybe I'll fire it up; although finding a monitor might be an issue. (I still have one at home). It probably has not been ignited in several years.

-mark

Cageman
08-10-2007, 11:23 AM
I'll probably get an Escom Amiga 4000T w. 060, 96MB ram, Piccasso IV w. ScanDoubler (and a bunch of other things) in a couple of months. A dear friend of mine wants to sell it.. :)

Ztreem
08-10-2007, 04:23 PM
If you are interrested of Amigas and demos, you should check this out:

http://hangar18.campus.luth.se/~cageman/amiga/tbl-starstruck.mpg

It is 204MB in size, but it is worth the wait if you want to see what can be done on a 060/AGA Amiga today. :) It was shown using WinUAE, and one can argue that the WinUAE version is much faster than running it on an actual Amiga, but, according to the people who have seen both versions, only a couple of the effects vere notably faster on WinUAE; mostly the speed were the same...

EDIT: http://hangar18.campus.luth.se/~cageman/amiga/

tbl-starstruck.mpg is the one...

Lapsuus was released a bunch of years ago by the same developers that creates Future Mark for PC... :)

Fun to see that TBL still does Amiga demos, maybe even the 3D models and animations is done in Lightwave, if Tudor still uses LW.:thumbsup:

cresshead
08-10-2007, 04:28 PM
What's a ninendo? :D

it's a result of the 5 min edit capability of the forum here:thumbsdow
:twak:

Cageman
08-10-2007, 07:29 PM
Fun to see that TBL still does Amiga demos, maybe even the 3D models and animations is done in Lightwave, if Tudor still uses LW.:thumbsup:

Hehe... I have hade some contact with one of the TBL-coders and he made a LightWave realtime renderer for the PS2. If I remember correctly, he could have a scene loaded in LightWave and just send it to the PS2 and see it in realtime (depending on the amount of polygons etc of course). I have to check with him again... :)

Cageman
08-10-2007, 07:33 PM
Fun to see that TBL still does Amiga demos, maybe even the 3D models and animations is done in Lightwave, if Tudor still uses LW.:thumbsup:

Yeah... last I heard from Tudor was that despite the tools avaliable in other appz, LightWave has proven time after time to be a robust solution for him. And the fact that their 3D-engine for Amiga is based on the lws/lwo format (as far as I know) it would just add a layer of complexity if another app is involved in the process.

DiscreetFX
08-20-2007, 06:27 PM
Yes, Amiga was very cool.

DarkLight
08-22-2007, 02:30 AM
Part 3 is up now :)
http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/a-history-of-the-amiga-part-3.ars

COBRASoft
08-22-2007, 05:25 AM
She will always remain my best friend...

Now, I'm a .Net developer on Vista with very powerfull machines, but I'm missing MUI, AmigaOS, AMOS, BLITZ, ImageFX, ADPro, SnoopDOS, YAM... and maybe most of all: Diavolo Backup!

Damn, why did the world choose for the IBM-PC :(

byte_fx
08-22-2007, 10:32 AM
She will always remain my best friend...

Now, I'm a .Net developer on Vista with very powerfull machines, but I'm missing MUI, AmigaOS, AMOS, BLITZ, ImageFX, ADPro, SnoopDOS, YAM... and maybe most of all: Diavolo Backup!

Damn, why did the world choose for the IBM-PC :(

Marketing.

IBM had it. Commodore didn't.

The way Commodore treated the Amiga STILL makes me mad.

Think how great it would be if the Amiga OS and speciality chips had gone thru two decades of advancement. It's entirely possible one of those chips - perhaps an addition to the existing set - would be a dedicated hi res, hi quality 3d rendering engine that LW could leverage.

byte_fx

gerry_g
08-22-2007, 12:29 PM
Marketing my @ss, computing is about turning out boxes to a given price point, it was stated on the Lux forum recently that the entire 3D Max user base was no greater than around 300,000, and this arguably one of industries biggest players . 3D is a niche market a very tiny niche market, computers are made for the massed grey army of office workers who have a hard enough time getting their heads around Office and Excel let alone any thing else, the Amiga was built by idealists who knew what was really possible, unfortunately now as then too few people understand the value or potential of a high specked computer and simply buy on price, put simply the Amiga was just too exotic to gain mass market traction.

robewil
08-22-2007, 01:42 PM
I was an Amiga dealer for years and here are some example quotes from customers that ended any further discussion about the Amiga.

Man: "Will this Amiga run the AutoCad program that I take home from work?"

Businessman: "Will the Amiga calculate formulas in Lotus 1-2-3 faster than my PC at work?"

Woman: "My child's teacher says that Apple computers are great for my children's education."

Kid: "My friend down the street has hundreds of IBM PC game disks. Will I be able to play those on an Amiga?"

One of the obstacles the Amiga could not overcome in the U.S. was the consumer's desire to pirate software. Apple II's and IBM PC's were way ahead of the Amiga in terms of accessibility to "free" software.

Sande
08-23-2007, 05:08 AM
One of the obstacles the Amiga could not overcome in the U.S. was the consumer's desire to pirate software. Apple II's and IBM PC's were way ahead of the Amiga in terms of accessibility to "free" software.
Really? That was pretty much the opposite here in Europe. I remember hearing the "Piracy is killing Amiga"-mantra sooo many times during 80's & 90's...

I had A500, 5xA2000, and my favorite, A1200 with [email protected]/PPC [email protected] I'm pretty sure I wouldn't work as a 3D-artist nowadays if I hadn't bought Amiga in the late 80's. I switched to PC in 2000, but didn't really like Windows, so I switched again - with Mac it feels a bit closer to home... ;)

robewil
08-23-2007, 08:03 AM
Really? That was pretty much the opposite here in Europe.I agree, or at least that's how I remember it too. However, here in the U.S., the main appeal of the PC was that users could buy one cheap and take their software from work to home. Macintosh sales suffered for this very same reason.

SBowie
08-23-2007, 08:44 AM
Marketing my @ss, computing is about turning out boxes to a given price point ... put simply the Amiga was just too exotic to gain mass market traction.I don't fully subscribe to this notion. It's a close run thing, but costs of 'exotica' curve downwards rapidly as production ramps up - look at the ability in 'cheap' graphics cards today to demonstrate that point.

The trick is to survive the red-ink period while making the product attractive enough by a canny combination of features and pricing to build critical mass. Amiga's were expensive enough, true, but not so much so that they were out of the running in my view (I bought three myself over time.) And they certainly weren't lacking in features.

In my view the biggest weakness (whether because of lack of vision or lack of funds, or other reason I don't know) was the abysmal, nearly non-existent marketing. It was as if someone had arrogantly decided "We've clearly built by far the better mousetrap - who needs cheese? No doubt mice will flock into it in droves out of sheer amazement!"

Maybe they felt the market would grasp what a technical marvel the Amiga was all on their own (which would be naive beyond words); maybe they didn't have the funding to do it right, maybe there really was a conspiracy, or maybe management just missed the boat. I am only thankful the wave lasted at least long enough to spawn a great community, which lives on vibrantly even in the diaspora to other platforms.

dwburman
08-23-2007, 08:54 AM
I actually saw a commodore ad on TV in the US. I think I saw a couple... one for the A500 and an earlier one for the C=64.... with the jingle "all my friends are bustin' down my door to get to my Commodore 64" or something like that. The A500 ad had love struck neighbor boy override a girl's TV to make sure she new that he thought she should be the winner of the awards show she was watching... remember genlocks.... ah the good old days. My memory could be faulty on the details... It was a long time ago.

The ads were cheesy and not very good IMO. Of course, a lot of ads back then look like crap now.

byte_fx
08-23-2007, 10:50 AM
Marketing my @ss, computing is about turning out boxes to a given price point, it was stated on the Lux forum recently that the entire 3D Max user base was no greater than around 300,000, and this arguably one of industries biggest players . 3D is a niche market a very tiny niche market, computers are made for the massed grey army of office workers who have a hard enough time getting their heads around Office and Excel let alone any thing else, the Amiga was built by idealists who knew what was really possible, unfortunately now as then too few people understand the value or potential of a high specked computer and simply buy on price, put simply the Amiga was just too exotic to gain mass market traction.

Actually that was my point about marketing.

IBM aimed at the masses while Commodore didn't seem to aim at any market. Ads were few and far between on tv; in fact about the only place I ever saw an Amiga ad was in an Amiga magazine.

Commodore should have been actively demonstrating the Amiga's capabilities and how they exceeded those of an IBM type.

How could the masses come to want the Amiga's features if they didn't even know it existed?

byte_fx

robewil
08-23-2007, 11:17 AM
IBM aimed at the masses while Commodore didn't seem to aim at any market.
I beg to differ. IBM aimed PC, PC/XT, and PC/AT sales at businesses only. There were very few, if any mainstream TV or print ads trying to get families to buy IBM. IBM went for the trickle-down approach. That is, saturate offices with their PCs and they will eventually make their way to the home. The only time IBM marketed directly to home-users was with the ill-conceived PC jr.

Apple had a similar strategy. They flooded schools with computers because they knew teachers would recommend them to parents and kids would come home from school begging their parents for an Apple for Christmas.

Lightwolf
08-23-2007, 11:22 AM
IBM went for the trickle-down approach
...
Apple had a similar strategy.
Yeah, all Amiga had was Andy Warhol... and they didn't even exploit that :grumpy:

Cheers,
Mike

byte_fx
08-23-2007, 11:40 AM
A few years ago there was a program on either a Discovery channel or PBS wherein one of the IBM execs of that time mentioned rhey did just as you said - aim the ads at businesses but he went further and said the true market they were after was the home market.

He also mentioned he was one the IBM managers that didn't see a market for home computers.

But he left the impression the plan was get IBM computers into homes as a result of their being used at work.

Don't know if it still does but Apple gave a bunch of computers to schools as what was really a marketing strategy. Theory being the students would be familiar with Apple computers and buy them when they started buying their own.

Regardless - Commodore did almost no marketing I'm aware of - at least in US.

I wouldn't have even heard of the Amiga if an Apple dealer hadn't told they were much better at graphics than the Apple models.

Took one look - bought an A500 on the spot and also bought a back-ordered A1000 at the same time. By the time it finally arrived I was well hooked to the point I'd kludged an adaptor to interface a 200 mb WD hd to the side port.

byte_fx

robewil
08-23-2007, 11:59 AM
Yeah, all Amiga had was Andy Warhol... and they didn't even exploit that :grumpy: And don't forget Deborah Harry.

dwburman
08-23-2007, 02:23 PM
I remember hearing the sentiment that the Amiga wasn't taken seriously as a business machine b/c of its multimedia capabilities.

Of course, when it comes to down to staring at spreadsheets or something, I think I'd rather look at a steady, hi-res monochrome display than the Amiga's flickering interlace "hi-res" mode. That was pretty awful - you had to turn down the contrast/brightness to reduce the flicker. Of course, that was fixed with the AGA chipset but by that point the industry had standardized on a 15-pin VGA monitor and Amiga had it's odd 23-pin interface.

The other thing I don't miss about the early to mid-nineties: $200 24-bit GFX cards with no or poor 3D acceleration and $200 ethernet cards... neither was an expense I could pay at that time.

I also seemed to have a lot of disks go bad on me... but then I could use that alternate file system (bformat?) that'd let me reformat and block off the bad sectors. Of course, if I hadn't been so cheap in buying the floppy disks (also not standard and therefore a little harder to find) I might not have had that problem. Of course, disk drive's going bad was another issue entirely :)

ah, but I loved her back then, despite the issues.

When I had an A600 I couldn't afford a hard drive but had a word processor that required one. I was able to get around that but creating a RAD disk and copying workbench into that and rebooting (running the OS from RAM) so I could then boot the word processor.

ah the days when I could be clever with my computer and not just some drone pushing buttons and not knowing how things function under the hood. :D

Sensei
08-23-2007, 04:55 PM
Amiga died because some Commodore managers decided to produce PC- clones and didn't sell it and wasted enough money to bancrupt.. If they would stay with producing only Amigas, they would not bancrupt, or this process would be much longer.. There were serious design mistake - every game player at that times looked forward playing 3d games that were new on PC - Amiga could not play them because it had bitplanes instead of chunky for graphics data.. But Commodore's game console CD-32 got specialized chipset Akiko that was converting chunky to bitplanes and do it very fast allowing CD-32 only 3d real-time games work faast.. If Commodore's engineers would put this chipset to Amiga A1200/A4000, and didn't product those PC-clones, Commodore would survive (longer)..

COBRASoft
08-23-2007, 06:43 PM
This complete thread proves me one thing. There are still a lot of Amiga lovers out there :)

Let's dream once, what would we want from a new Amiga nowadays. For me this is 'quite' obvious from my work-point of view:
- Lightwave (off coarse)
- Microsoft .Net + Visual Studio (2005 or Orcas), through PCTask or so is fine for me
- Decent webbrowser aka Firefox or IE7
- MS Office 2007, may be with PCTask too
- Directory Opus 9

For the rest, I don't care, as long as it has the ease of use of AmigaOS:
- Datatypes
- No shutdown, just turn the darn thing off and boots up in 7 seconds
- Superb memory management of 3th party programs (Final Writer worked with 2 MB of RAM!)
- Real Multitasking
- Intuition
- Boot from anything (HD, ZIP drives, USB Memory sticks, ...)

Anyone with more ideas?

KSTAR
08-23-2007, 07:05 PM
Amiga died because some Commodore managers decided to produce PC- clones and didn't sell it and wasted enough money to bancrupt.. If they would stay with producing only Amigas, they would not bancrupt, or this process would be much longer.. There were serious design mistake - every game player at that times looked forward playing 3d games that were new on PC - Amiga could not play them because it had bitplanes instead of chunky for graphics data.. But Commodore's game console CD-32 got specialized chipset Akiko that was converting chunky to bitplanes and do it very fast allowing CD-32 only 3d real-time games work faast.. If Commodore's engineers would put this chipset to Amiga A1200/A4000, and didn't product those PC-clones, Commodore would survive (longer)..

Yeah and despite all this, their CEO was at one point the highest or one of the highest paid in the industry. He was supposedly once infamously quoted of saying he had never even booted and Amiga.

Poor Amy never had a chance it seems:cry:

Sarford
08-24-2007, 05:58 AM
Yeah and despite all this, their CEO was at one point the highest or one of the highest paid in the industry. He was supposedly once infamously quoted of saying he had never even booted and Amiga.

Poor Amy never had a chance it seems:cry:

I think this ignorance goes for almost all CEO's of big companies. The only passion those 'people' have is their own wallet.

Dave Jerrard
08-24-2007, 06:43 PM
Because it didn't had virtual memory, and file saving buffers were really small and quickly flushed to disk.. Modern smarter technologies require better treating computer than just power off.. ;)I don't know about that. I never had to wait hours for my Amiga to tell me it was OK to turn it off. I get that with Windows more frequently than pretty much anything else. When that happens, you have no choice but to forcibly turn it off, whether it's ready or not. It seems to boot up fine again. It really pisses me off when the OS comes up with some BS complaint like "can't end task". Really? Here, let me show you how easy it is. >click< Easy.

Windows is saving your settings. Really? Funny. I didn't change any, and I sure as hell didn't change anything that takes minutes to save. I can save a GB file in that time and I think I would have noticed spending HOURS to make that many changes that would require such a long time to save.

Then there's the 2 minutes PLUS that it takes just to boot the damn thing up. Then another several minutes for the drive activity to finsh AFTER the desktop and icons appear, and this is without running Disc Keeper.

If this is modern, smarter technology, give me the old stupid stuff. It didn't waste my time telling me to wait while it tried to figure how to turn off.

He Who Uses His Power Supply's Power Switch On Windows More Than He Ever Did On The Amiga.

Cageman
08-26-2007, 05:35 AM
If Commodore's engineers would put this chipset to Amiga A1200/A4000, and didn't product those PC-clones, Commodore would survive (longer)..

Hopefully this will come into the article-series, but anyhow, I read/heard that Dave Hayne had worked on a new chipset that had 3D-acceleration, more memory, 16 channels instead of 4 and a bunch of other things. It was outperforming AGA 100 times over, and it was slated to be in the followup on A1200/4000 (which never happened, because Commodore focused on other things, and went bankrupt).

EDIT: The most irritating thing was that, according to the sources, it was a working prototype that ran circles around AGA without optimizations of the code...

Bytehawk
08-26-2007, 05:57 AM
etc.etc.
He Who Uses His Power Supply's Power Switch On Windows More Than He Ever Did On The Amiga.


LOL, and I thought I was the only one with those opinions.

Ztreem
08-26-2007, 07:33 AM
Hopefully this will come into the article-series, but anyhow, I read/heard that Dave Hayne had worked on a new chipset that had 3D-acceleration, more memory, 16 channels instead of 4 and a bunch of other things. It was outperforming AGA 100 times over, and it was slated to be in the followup on A1200/4000 (which never happened, because Commodore focused on other things, and went bankrupt).

EDIT: The most irritating thing was that, according to the sources, it was a working prototype that ran circles around AGA without optimizations of the code...

I never heard about that, but it feels sad that they never released a computer with that chipset, could have saved the Amiga a couple of more years.

Verlon
08-26-2007, 08:06 AM
oh how I miss those 7 second boot-ups. Now, I'll spot you the extra hardware startups...make it 30 seconds. As for the rest of it?

Are we SURE Windows is better? Ditto for Mac, Linux, and the rest of them.

Bytehawk
08-26-2007, 02:51 PM
how feasible would it be to start up (or resurrect)a new platform ?

I don't think it would work unless there is a price advantage.

Remember that the PS3 can be made into a pc running linux, and that at 600 € + cost of peripherals (mouse and keyboard)

Cageman
08-27-2007, 01:32 AM
I never heard about that, but it feels sad that they never released a computer with that chipset, could have saved the Amiga a couple of more years.

Well, I just found a much more reliable source (http://www.amigau.com/aig/amigaaaa.html) about AAA (the successor of AGA). Not at all what I wrote in my previous message. I think I was told a lie. :) It was way more advanced than AGA, but, as you can read, they had limited prototypes that could do real things, but not run AOS for example.

Cageman
08-27-2007, 01:39 AM
Ohh..and AAA is mentioned in the article, first part, first page. =) I hope they go more into detail when we reach that part of the history!

BeeVee
09-04-2007, 03:53 AM
I saw the AAA chipset on a prototype motherboard when I was editing Amiga Format. Never saw it running though...

B

mattc
09-06-2007, 06:24 AM
Hopefully this will come into the article-series, but anyhow, I read/heard that Dave Hayne had worked on a new chipset that had 3D-acceleration, more memory, 16 channels instead of 4 and a bunch of other things. It was outperforming AGA 100 times over, and it was slated to be in the followup on A1200/4000 (which never happened, because Commodore focused on other things, and went bankrupt).

EDIT: The most irritating thing was that, according to the sources, it was a working prototype that ran circles around AGA without optimizations of the code...

That sounds like BS unless they're referring to the PA-RISC based Hombre chipset that Ed Hepler was working on for the next gen console (CD-64).

AAA was too little too late (you were looking at dual chipsets for 64-bit performance back in 94. VGA was already past that by that stage). I still remember one of C='s engineers telling me that work had been suspended in mid 93. If it had been delivered to it's original 92 schedule, then they might still be around (along with AA and the 3000+ in 91). Stupid engineering management changes basically screwed it all.

Dave did do some work on SCARAB which was supposed to be a VGA card sitting on the amiga chipset bus running some mangled half vga-half aga cycle.

By then, it was too late. C= has neither the time nor the money to actually develop any of it.

Dave has gone into all this FUD a few times over the last 13 years.

M.

Cageman
09-08-2007, 04:34 PM
That sounds like BS unless they're referring to the PA-RISC based Hombre chipset that Ed Hepler was working on for the next gen console (CD-64).

Yes, as you can see I posted a link that have some good real facts about AAA. ;)

inquisitive
09-08-2007, 11:41 PM
so what can the amiga be used for in a current VT4 enviroment? someone I know was holding on to his Amiga stuff and just recently gave it to me :) I was looking just for one computer for midi purposes and endup with 4 A2000 with all kinds of goodies. I doubt I would ever find all the stuff again.

kfinla
09-09-2007, 08:27 AM
Looking forward to the next article.. the first computer I used was an Amiga 1000. We got it when I was 6, (1986?) .. still runs, I've never let my parents get rid of it. We got a 2nd floppy (3.5") disk drive.. and later on got a 1 mb ram upgrade that had its own power supply :)

Bytehawk
09-09-2007, 09:14 AM
it's incredible we could do so much with so little in those days. Seems like todays programs are bloated unoptimized mammoths.

beverins
09-09-2007, 09:39 AM
I saw the AAA chipset on a prototype motherboard when I was editing Amiga Format. Never saw it running though...

B

Sort of tangential to the thread, but I really miss your fine magazine :-) You were a great editor, and you always found something good to put in. Waited every month with bated breath back then. :heart: :bowdown:

Even in its waning days of smaller page size and page count, from perfect binding to staples, it was always a good read.

Anyway, my Amiga 1200 is still up and running. I found a nifty pre-fab kit on ebay that allows you to hook up a PCMCIA CF-I/II reader to the Amiga and use it like a hard drive. You can get the driver from aminet and probably pay less than I did off Ebay for the parts of the kit, but the guy deserved it for the hard work. :D My A1200 has a 68040 with 32mb RAM in the trapdoor slot - I have the Amiga up on blocks to allow for the added height of the card (its supposed to only be used in a tower config) and it works fabulously. No crashes and rock solid.

Though its a bit upsetting to me that my external HD floppy (1.76mb) drive died. It's an external and I replaced the drive with another PC floppy drive (it has a controller board in it to convert the instruction set) and sadly the drive only reads 880K floppies now. *sob* Can't find one on Ebay either. :thumbsdow

BeeVee
09-10-2007, 02:25 AM
Thank you very much! I really miss those days too...

B

Sarford
09-10-2007, 05:28 AM
We must look like a couple of old geezers to the young on these boards (<20), talking about the good old times :D

*Pete*
09-11-2007, 11:30 AM
it's incredible we could do so much with so little in those days. Seems like todays programs are bloated unoptimized mammoths.


you could fit several games on one floppy disk (700 k)

today, its a rare case when a game occupies less than a gigabyte.

LAV
09-11-2007, 12:13 PM
you could fit several games on one floppy disk (700 k)

today, its a rare case when a game occupies less than a gigabyte.

It's you, 3D master guys, that fill every game with tons of sparklin pixels :D :D :D Be optimized!

Panikos
09-11-2007, 01:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nymVNhy4dw8

:)

The WOW era of Newtek

IMI
09-11-2007, 09:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nymVNhy4dw8

:)

The WOW era of Newtek

Very cool video. WOW is right. Kinda gave me the chills. :)

Cageman
09-12-2007, 02:45 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nymVNhy4dw8

:)

The WOW era of Newtek

Watched it... very, very cheesy by todays standards, but fun nontheless. Great find!