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ben martin
07-20-2007, 08:50 AM
If you tried/use messiah or maestro please let me know, based on your experience, what is the most recommended choose to add/help Lightwave CA and why (Strongest and Weakness).
Messiah or Maestro? :question:

Feedback musch apreciated.

Many thanks!

ericsmith
08-04-2007, 12:53 AM
It really depends on what you're looking for, and what weaknesses you're trying to address.

Messiah is a complete application. It's a bit similar to LW, but you will still be working in a new interface with new tools. It wouldn't be much different than getting XSI for character animation.

Maestro is a tool that works within LW, and it's more about streamlining the animation process. I can't say that it fixes some of LW's core weaknesses in the area of character animation, but the rigs work really well, and animating with the control panel is a very unique and fun way of working. It strips out a lot of the redundant steps and mouseclicks, and allows you to get into the flow of animation. The real benifit here is that it allows you to animate much faster than the traditional way. Honestly, after having used it, I would never want to work any other way.

Eric

StereoMike
08-04-2007, 02:22 AM
I used Maestro in a project with a guy maneuvering with a hand pallet truck. It really saved me one or two weeks I guess, cause I didn't had much experience with CA (and no experiences with walk cycles).

I don't know if this is resolved now, but 9.0 was sluggish slow with Maestro, but Maestro wasn't the one to blame (in 8.5 it achieved a much better responsiveness). So actually I animated in 8.5 and rendered in 9.0 to get around this weakness of LW.

@Eric is 9.2 on par with 8.5 regarding responsiveness in Maestro?

mike

jesusguijarro
08-04-2007, 03:06 AM
I have never used Maestro,but have tested messiah intensively and is far better than LW CA tools, works very simliar and bone defromation are very fast. I think the major weakness of LW in CA is the bone deformations are too slow

ben martin
08-04-2007, 05:47 AM
Thank you all! :)

You guys are nice! :thumbsup:
Your feedback was much appreciated!
Again, many thanks!

ericsmith
08-04-2007, 10:24 AM
I don't know if this is resolved now, but 9.0 was sluggish slow with Maestro, but Maestro wasn't the one to blame (in 8.5 it achieved a much better responsiveness). So actually I animated in 8.5 and rendered in 9.0 to get around this weakness of LW.

@Eric is 9.2 on par with 8.5 regarding responsiveness in Maestro?

9.2 actually has some interaction issues that Newtek needs to sort out.

But for me, 9.0 is just as fast as 8.0 or 8.5. Actually, 8.5 is slower than 8.0 and 9.0 if I recall correctly.

I'm a bit confused about some of the comments I'm seeing about Maestro and speed though. It's true that the amount of expressions and such make it slower than a really simple rig, but I have no problem getting 25 - 30 fps as long as I create a version of my character that doesn't have all the unnecessary details (like eyelashes, clothing details like buttons, etc.), and animate at subpatch level 0.

And from what I understand, working this way is pretty much the way the industry does it. The rigs they created for Chicken Little in Maya ran at around 5-6 fps.

At the end of the day, interaction speed is really important to me. But not as important as a rig that gets me where I want to go easily. This means complex controls, and those controls require more CPU overhead. I've had many users tell me that the Maestro rig is the most intuitive rig they've ever seen. That's gotta be worth something.

Eric

Phil
08-04-2007, 02:50 PM
I'm a happy Maestro (ab)user. It's been reliable, with the only real irritation coming from the slow *** deformation system in LW. It's definitely going to get better as the dev team work their way through the cruft, but if you need *fast* character animation tools and only a single supported platform, messiah is your best bet. XSI might also be worth a look in the Foundation form because you can push everything out to LW via PointOven (.mdd files).

If you want to run on Mac, then you're more stuck - messiah and XSI are Windows-only.....

SaturnX
08-27-2007, 09:45 AM
Hi, has anyone used Maestro_v2 in LW9.3 yet?
Are the 9.2 slow-down issues i keep hearing about still an issue?

Im really interested in Maestro, i guess I just want to make sure it runs with 9.3 before i splash out.

Cobalt
08-27-2007, 09:56 AM
I'm a very satisfied Maestro user. Character Animation comes into only 10% of my Lightwave work so I like having a tool within Lightwave that is quick and easy to use. I use it as an auto rigging and posing tool. I really like saving pose sets and being able to switch them out with different models of different sizes.

Maestro was also easy on the budget.

I use Maestro 2.0 in LW 9.2 and it don't have any speed issues. But then again, it's not like I'm trying to produce Shrek 4 or something. My CA work is pretty simple.

KevinL
08-27-2007, 06:59 PM
Love using it (and yes abusing it :)

But in 9.3, Newtek definitely has done something that the Maestro controller gets interrupted by. Grab a control and move no longer gives the snappy feel. It's almost like Lightwave has to think about it!

Hopefully it will all get sorted.

Kevin

ericsmith
08-27-2007, 07:32 PM
What's actually happening is that when the mouse is in motion, layout stalls the redraw process (you can still see the numeric fields on the lower left constantly updating as you drag, though). If you stop moving the mouse (you don't have to let go of the button), then the refresh happens. You'll find the Graph Editor behaves exactly the same way. It's also worth noting that this only happens when the scene reaches a certain level of complexity.

We're still looking for clever workarounds to fix the problem, but this is one of those situations where Newtek altered the core code, probably in an attempt to optimize something, and broke something else. And unfortunately, they aren't being very responsive in helping us deal with this issue at the moment.

Eric

Carm3D
08-27-2007, 10:41 PM
I haven't used Maestro, but I've used Messiah. I'd suggest looking into XSI Foundation. It comes with PointOven so you can bring the .MDD data into LW and render it. Back when I used Messiah it didn't support LW weight maps. Make sure it does before you purchase it!!! But aside from that.. XSI has other cool stuff that neither Messiah or Maestro have.

DiedonD
08-28-2007, 01:57 AM
A solid Maestro user here. Stuck at LW9.0 because of no good interaction between the two on later versions, and render only on 9.3.

Newtek!!! .... What is holding you up on undoing the core code to its previous state?!

And another issue I have in animation is that, on very high frames, like 6000 frames or so, when you start animating from start, and as you approach the 3000s, responsivness gets waay, way slower. To the point of, you need to count till 10 to click between hotspots. Only the hotspot that you happened not to use till then responds better. Like the ones on the knee. So I click that when I want to view the animation overall, and when I need to tweak another thing, its back to counting. Especially the neck hotspot.

If we could animate throughout the scene with good reponsiveness, however long the scene may be (18.000 was my highest), it wouldve been great. It would put an end to making another set on the same scene just for the lack of responsiveness.

dballesg
08-28-2007, 02:44 AM
A solid Maestro user here. Stuck at LW9.0 because of no good interaction between the two on later versions, and render only on 9.3.

Newtek!!! .... What is holding you up on undoing the core code to its previous state?!

Maybe going back it is not a good idea. Maybe these are the first steps they are doing to implement faster deformations on LW. Those are really needed if they think on implement new CA tools.



And another issue I have in animation is that, on very high frames, like 6000 frames or so, when you start animating from start, and as you approach the 3000s, responsivness gets waay, way slower. To the point of, you need to count till 10 to click between hotspots. Only the hotspot that you happened not to use till then responds better. Like the ones on the knee. So I click that when I want to view the animation overall, and when I need to tweak another thing, its back to counting. Especially the neck hotspot.

If we could animate throughout the scene with good reponsiveness, however long the scene may be (18.000 was my highest), it wouldve been great. It would put an end to making another set on the same scene just for the lack of responsiveness.

Maestro is such a good tool, my only guess here it is that LScript is slower processing big integer values. You said frame 3000 to 6000. But doesn't make any sense because frame number 1000 would be the same kind of value.

I've been asking for keep Maestro working since LW 8.0, the rigging system on 64 bits was screwed up, so you couldn't use it. You need to rig the character on 32 bits and animate on 64 bits. I remember the kindness of eric doing a LOT of tests with that in the past, and we were unable to find what was failing, until he discovered that fault on LW 64.

On another thread that Chuck said they were working with Maestro Authors to solve all this problems, and now eric said that they are not responsive helping him to solve it. Those are the Newtek ways, really sad!!!! :( Say one thing, and do the opposite.

I am with Carm 3D here, even when it is more expensive than Messiah, I will go with XSI Foundation.

Or download the demos of Messiah and XSI (there are demos of both) and look if are working with LW 9.3. So you can save yourself form a few heart attacks and ulcers. And of course your wallet! :)

David

cresshead
08-28-2007, 05:58 AM
and the character animation in lightwave saga continues...
seems we take one step forward [ik booster,acs3,t4d rig, maestro]
and then 2 steps back with a new lightwave version...

alifx
08-28-2007, 06:23 AM
seems we take one step forward [ik booster,acs3,t4d rig, maestro]
and then 2 steps back with a new lightwave version...

sadly yes that's what NT are doing with Lightwave :|

from years until this day at least :P

I hope we see some "Wows" in the next version

dballesg
08-28-2007, 06:38 AM
sadly yes that's what NT are doing with Lightwave :|

from years until this day at least :P

I hope we see some "Wows" in the next version

Not very confident here,

Read the whole Roadmap thread and Chuck answers. A couple of mugs and t-shirt later we still do not know what we will get and when! :(

David

cresshead
08-28-2007, 07:07 AM
either newtek need to start to roll out some of their new character animation based tools in the next couple of point updates or fix what they broke for the plugins that used to work okay in lw8 and lw9.0...if not alot more people will start to see lightwave in a similar boat to m*d* 301 which will have a basic animation capability...ie somewhat restrictive and then go look at other apps like messiah and xsi etc...which will just add to the list of animators/wanna be animators moving to other apps...not a good prospect!

i do feel we're going into a much darker time!....with no proton actively showing stuff over here anymore on a regular basis [he doesn't work for newtek any more...moved to dave school i think]...we're left with the general artists who use lw and some occassional newtek based posts telling us to hold tight..all will be cool...

somewhat doom n gloom i know!
...i'll feel better when the 9.4 beta starts up...i'm hoping to anyway!

Chuck
08-28-2007, 09:10 AM
On another thread that Chuck said they were working with Maestro Authors to solve all this problems, and now eric said that they are not responsive helping him to solve it. Those are the Newtek ways, really sad!!!! :( Say one thing, and do the opposite.

That's just plain not the truth, David. I've reviewed my correspondence and the fact of the matter is that the last exchange our teams have had was me asking a member of the Maestro team for a license that our UB developers could use for testing purposes so we could solve issues that users were reporting with Maestro and UB.

Eric, if you've emailed me a query or posted one somewhere that I've missed, by all means send me an email to point me to it and we'll get on it. Any time you feel we aren't being responsive, by all means get in touch with me directly. That's what I did for you when we had issues related to Maestro to work on and needed your assistance to do so, as opposed to posting such a comment as you've made above, on a forum.

And apologies, but sometimes we're going to need just a bit of patience, as we may not be able to resolve an issue immediately, once we are aware of it, especially if it means we may need to go back to the drawing board on some of the core changes in progress. But we will get the problem addressed if at all possible, or provide the appropriate information to allow third parties to develop a new approach within the new context.

dballesg
08-28-2007, 10:47 AM
That's just plain not the truth, David.

My apologies Chuck,

But if I put yourself on the shoes of a LW and Maestro user, what you will think on Eric's comment? Answer me honestly. So I was answering in reaction to what Eric said.

Aside, I reported through your bug system, Maestro problems on the 64 bits version, since version 8.5 of LW. As well as an email directed TO YOU. Do you remember it?


And apologies, but sometimes we're going to need just a bit of patience, as we may not be able to resolve an issue immediately, once we are aware of it, especially if it means we may need to go back to the drawing board on some of the core changes in progress. But we will get the problem addressed if at all possible, or provide the appropriate information to allow third parties to develop a new approach within the new context.

Meaning what? That "maybe" the problems will be resolved? I think me and other users are reported this since version 8.5. That is a lot of patience we showed, don't you think?

David

ericsmith
08-28-2007, 11:07 AM
It was not my intention to instigate a mud-throwing frenzy. I just felt the need to make it clear that on this issue, the ball is in Newtek's court.

It is true that Newtek has been helpful in dealing with certain issues regarding Maestro. But in this particular case, there seem to be some communication problems.

Chuck, I've emailed you directly to go into further details regarding this.


And another issue I have in animation is that, on very high frames, like 6000 frames or so, when you start animating from start, and as you approach the 3000s, responsivness gets waay, way slower. To the point of, you need to count till 10 to click between hotspots. Only the hotspot that you happened not to use till then responds better. Like the ones on the knee. So I click that when I want to view the animation overall, and when I need to tweak another thing, its back to counting. Especially the neck hotspot.

Hey Diadond,

I thought I had discussed this directly with you, but have you tried turning off motion paths? They have to draw the path and a knot for every frame, and this can really slow things down when there's a lot of frames.

Eric

dballesg
08-28-2007, 11:21 AM
Hi Eric and Chuck

Well, I just tried to open Maestro on LW 9.3 64 Bits and I got these errors one after the other only trying to open it. At the end do not even open. So it is COMPLETELY UNUSABLE on that platform. You can not even open the Maestro interface.

In LW 9.3 32 bits is working, but testing it with the male figure you give in Maestro, it is impossible to animate. I mean the jumps the figure do on the screen are awful, and the responsiveness as other pointed it is terrible, even reducing the Subdivision Display to 0. Unless of course I am animating a character doing break dance.

Look my configuration, I do not have a gaming graphic card or a not powerful enough system to use.

David

System Information:
Operating System: Microsoft® Windows Vista™ Business
Version 6.0.6000 Build 6000
CPU Type: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU T7600 @2.33GHz, 2333 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 2 Logical Processor(s)
RAM: 2.045,97 MB
Graphics Card: NVIDIA Quadro FX 2500M 512Mb
Display Driver Version: 158.36 Forceware

monovich
08-28-2007, 11:46 AM
I think everyone who is screaming for the old code should just stick with what works (9.0) for Maestro until they get it fixed on the NT side. Animate in 9.0 and render in 9.3. How is that different than animating in XSI and rendering in 9.3.

It seems tons of work is being done on the back end of LW, and they've said repeatedly that it's going to break some things in the process (which is painfully evident every day I work with it).

The big picture is more important than the current functionality of the plugin.

dballesg
08-28-2007, 12:26 PM
I think everyone who is screaming for the old code should just stick with what works (9.0) for Maestro until they get it fixed on the NT side.

Maestro rigging capabilities are BROKEN since LW 8.5 in 64 bits.

And I say before




Maybe going back it is not a good idea. Maybe these are the first steps they are doing to implement faster deformations on LW. Those are really needed if they think on implement new CA tools.



So I am not screaming for the old code, only that they help to solve LONG TERM problems. Of course time is relative, what it is a LONG TERM for me (almost over 2 years?) could be an instant for you.

Chuck
08-28-2007, 03:23 PM
My apologies Chuck,

But if I put yourself on the shoes of a LW and Maestro user, what you will think on Eric's comment? Answer me honestly. So I was answering in reaction to what Eric said.

Dave, I've had any number of opportunities in my life to have reacted to similar situations from a similar position, and I didn't do to anyone what you chose to do.



Aside, I reported through your bug system, Maestro problems on the 64 bits version, since version 8.5 of LW. As well as an email directed TO YOU. Do you remember it?

No, I don't remember it right this instant but I'm sure if I go look for it I can find it and refresh myself. Yes, there are still a lot of long-standing issues to resolve in LightWave, and we're working to get them all resolved. If your report went into the old bug system, however, you might want to resubmit it to the new system, via lw-bugs (at) newtek (dot) com. Lots of folks have helped us out by doing so, and of course staff here move bugs from the old system to the new as we get time.




Meaning what? That "maybe" the problems will be resolved? I think me and other users are reported this since version 8.5. That is a lot of patience we showed, don't you think?

David

I'll restate the points that I was making about the specific problem that Eric described that arose in the v9 series, to see if I can make those points more clearly: We will either implement a change that makes Maestro work like it did before without Eric needing to make a change, or we'll implement a new way for this kind of interactivity to be possible but that would require some changes from third parties, in which case we'll advise them what they need to do to take advantage of the new system. No maybe about it, the problem will be solved. The solution, in either case, may take some time to accomplish.

As for the issues with regard to Maestro on the 64-bit platform that you reported, we'll do our best to resolve those in the current cycle.

dballesg
08-28-2007, 04:27 PM
Dave, I've had any number of opportunities in my life to have reacted to similar situations from a similar position, and I didn't do to anyone what you chose to do.

Only thing I can say on my defense it is Spanish people are temperamental! :)



I'll restate the points that I was making about the specific problem that Eric described that arose in the v9 series, to see if I can make those points more clearly: We will either implement a change that makes Maestro work like it did before without Eric needing to make a change, or we'll implement a new way for this kind of interactivity to be possible but that would require some changes from third parties, in which case we'll advise them what they need to do to take advantage of the new system. No maybe about it, the problem will be solved. The solution, in either case, may take some time to accomplish.

As for the issues with regard to Maestro on the 64-bit platform that you reported, we'll do our best to resolve those in the current cycle.

Thanks for that, but please talk to Eric and Brian, maybe they could do the changes and even benefit from any other new things you are doing on the LScript part of LW.

David

NanoGator
08-28-2007, 07:47 PM
I don't know how thoroughly it has been tested, but it should. That's the neat thing about LScript, we don't have to recompile for other platforms.

DiedonD
08-29-2007, 01:19 AM
Hey Diadond,

I thought I had discussed this directly with you, but have you tried turning off motion paths? They have to draw the path and a knot for every frame, and this can really slow things down when there's a lot of frames.

Eric

Heya "Drug dealer" :hey:

Yeah we discussed it, and no that didnt help speed up at all. The problem is too many keyframe values. The knee hotspot has less of em, or even none at some scenes, thus it interacts fluently. But all other "real" hotspots, due take alot of keyframe values, and no more than frame 3000, when the delay in interactions get heavily noticable. As I said you start counting when you go from one hotspot to another.

So now, how to deal with this problem DIRECTLY. If I wanted 50 small scenes all joined in together later on, I wouldve remained with AE in 2D. 3D scenes were suppose to be more life like animation, and cameras and lights throughout. And I have these characters. They talk and interact. It just inevitably gets to 18.000 so far. Imagine how many values would something like a neck or a head, or a hand take. What resources does one need to deal with that? And LW64 isnt a solution for all scenes also. No grass plugins there.

ericsmith
08-29-2007, 09:30 AM
Something else to try...

In the master plugins panel, uncheck the Maestro plugin.

The control panel will still work even if Maestro isn't "active". The only downside is that you won't see things update in the keyframe editor, like moving the timeslider, or editing keys in graph editor. But there's a "refresh" button in the keyframe editor that you can hit when you need it to update to what's happening in layout.

Eric

DiedonD
08-30-2007, 02:06 AM
For all of you that are confused as to why I call Eric a drug dealer, Ill tell you. Maestro is also a company for sugar production here in Prishtina, Kosova. Meaning "White Powder" :hey: , ironically its main distributors' name is called DROGA, adding more into it. SO its a joke.

Eric I was expecting you to respond back with something, but I had to give some explanation to my actions, which, without your reaction made me seem a bit too harsh you know.

As for this second among tons of help you constantly provide :thumbsup:

The thing is, the second one is the one I tried to do and it didnt helped. The first one sounds kinda new for me. Ill try that out later on. Thanks :)

mav3rick
08-30-2007, 05:35 AM
Maybe going back it is not a good idea. Maybe these are the first steps they are doing to implement faster deformations on LW. Those are really needed if they think on implement new CA tools.



Maestro is such a good tool, my only guess here it is that LScript is slower processing big integer values. You said frame 3000 to 6000. But doesn't make any sense because frame number 1000 would be the same kind of value.

I've been asking for keep Maestro working since LW 8.0, the rigging system on 64 bits was screwed up, so you couldn't use it. You need to rig the character on 32 bits and animate on 64 bits. I remember the kindness of eric doing a LOT of tests with that in the past, and we were unable to find what was failing, until he discovered that fault on LW 64.

On another thread that Chuck said they were working with Maestro Authors to solve all this problems, and now eric said that they are not responsive helping him to solve it. Those are the Newtek ways, really sad!!!! :( Say one thing, and do the opposite.

I am with Carm 3D here, even when it is more expensive than Messiah, I will go with XSI Foundation.

Or download the demos of Messiah and XSI (there are demos of both) and look if are working with LW 9.3. So you can save yourself form a few heart attacks and ulcers. And of course your wallet! :)

David


use previus installation of lw until it is fixed

ericsmith
08-30-2007, 09:28 AM
Sorry Diedond,

The fact is, I used to be a drug dealer for real, so the topic is kind of sensitive to me. I was arrested 5 years ago, but I cut a deal with the DA to give up my overseas source. They put me in witness protection, and set me up with a career as a 3d artist.

But thanks to you, my cover is blown, and I'll have to relocate again. They told me the best career they can find for me now is quality control for a tampon factory.

Oh well, it's been nice knowing you all.

Eric

P.S. thppt. :D

OOZZEE
08-30-2007, 09:44 AM
Sorry Diedond,

The fact is, I used to be a drug dealer for real, so the topic is kind of sensitive to me. I was arrested 5 years ago, but I cut a deal with the DA to give up my overseas source. They put me in witness protection, and set me up with a career as a 3d artist.

But thanks to you, my cover is blown, and I'll have to relocate again. They told me the best career they can find for me now is quality control for a tampon factory.

Oh well, it's been nice knowing you all.

Eric

P.S. thppt. :D


so will be getting anymore free maestro updates... do they have computers where they are sending you this time...hehehehe

StereoMike
08-30-2007, 10:02 AM
I had such a laugh Eric!!!

dballesg
08-30-2007, 10:54 AM
use previus installation of lw until it is fixed

That is what I am doing :)


BTW another bug I found this morning on 9.3

Anyhow look what I found with the Bone Weight Shade in 9.3 thanks I was using Maestro.!!!!

And due that the thread it is deriving to drugs :) So I do not like my characters taking LSD when I import them on Layout! :) Please, my characters must be drug free! :)

Aside, the movement in 9.3 with Maestro it is not bad, it is simply impossible. You can not use the controllers on Maestro screen, that character, doesn't even move, even reducing the Display Subpatch at 0 :(

BTW it is NOT a hoax, that is what I see when I activated this morning the Bone Weight Shade on Layout! :(

I used Maestro on previous 32bits versions with more complex objects and they moved fine.

Looks like the messages passed from the mouse Maestro are really slow in 9.3.

David

NanoGator
08-30-2007, 03:29 PM
Sorry Diedond,

The fact is, I used to be a drug dealer for real, so the topic is kind of sensitive to me. I was arrested 5 years ago, but I cut a deal with the DA to give up my overseas source. They put me in witness protection, and set me up with a career as a 3d artist.


Oooohhhh that's why I enjoyed your cooking so much!

DiedonD
08-31-2007, 01:39 AM
Sorry Diedond,

The fact is, I used to be a drug dealer for real, so the topic is kind of sensitive to me. I was arrested 5 years ago, but I cut a deal with the DA to give up my overseas source. They put me in witness protection, and set me up with a career as a 3d artist.

But thanks to you, my cover is blown, and I'll have to relocate again. They told me the best career they can find for me now is quality control for a tampon factory.

Oh well, it's been nice knowing you all.

Eric

P.S. thppt. :D

Thats better :) . Alright here we go.

The one that cutt a deal with you, is his name Jake?! At the DA office on San Antonio or wherever it is that you live. I know him. We use to play wargames here when we were kids. Perhaps I could pull a string, and make him contact the ones at MIB, so as perhaps all this could be errased in this forum, and in the minds of milions that were involved watching your cover beeing blowned away. See Id like to help you get back to your previous cover, and I believe most of the community here would like so too. You play the role of looking like a genious coder and 3d artist all way too well for us to let that cover beeing blown away you see.

So Ill be watching you from sattelite above you. If you wear red and black, it means you want to go ahead with the operation. If you wear anything else, it means the tampon factory idea sounds good to you, its like searching for something new an all.

Well there you go. Its all up to you now? Back to where you were or tampon factory. Chooose!

P.S - :D

scratch33
08-31-2007, 01:46 AM
Hello Eric,

OT :

I have buyed times ago a license of lightwave with maestro from another user. Is the maestro license transferable?

Thank you.

Bye

ericsmith
08-31-2007, 09:22 AM
scratch33,

I've got no problem with that. Do me a favor and email me (support "at" stillwaterpictures "dot" com) with your name and email, as well as the name and email of who you bought it from, so I can update my user list, and you'll get info on updates, etc.

Diedond,

You had to bring MIB into it, didn't you. You do realize that when "they" find out that you know they really exist, and are irresponsible enough to talk about them in a public forum, they're going to have to destroy the planet. Certain confidentialities must be kept, after all.

And I was just getting settled in here, too.

Eric

GregMalick
08-31-2007, 09:37 AM
Hi Eric,

That license transfer information usually comes from the original owner - not the buyer. Otherwise someday you might receive an email from Joe Blow saying he bought my Maestro when he really didn't. Of course - you can alsways send a confirming email.

I think most companies get transfer requests from the original owners.

ericsmith
08-31-2007, 10:37 AM
Good point, Greg.

So scratch33, let me ammend that comment to reflect this.

Have the seller send me an email regarding this and I'll take the appropriate steps.

Eric

ben martin
09-04-2007, 07:16 AM
Hey Eric,

I downloaded from your company site the Maestro demo videos.

It seems very cool and handy to deal with (except that slowdown reported issues)!
You see my team is actually using Motion builder (single license) to animate a short movie.

It is a pain, since we only have one license with 3 animators seated in the room!
We "hate" (yeahh, hate is the right word :2guns: ) Autodesk because I'm not in the mood to be exploited by them. (a previous Standard Motion builder License was around $400US and now they (Autodesk) terminated that and sell only the Pro version up to $7000US) so, as for me, they can go and eat vegetables! :twak:

On other hand Lightwave does not have any decent CA tool in Lightwave, all this made us search for a useable and fast solution to our future CA needs!
That's why I started this thread.

And I have no much doubt about Maestro/Messiah already.
Maybe my team help me to make a decision on buying at leas one Maestro license (we are poor souls living in a poor Country were cinema industry is nothing but a far myth).

So, maybe you have a new client, but this reply is related only with a simple question to you:

In your Maestro presentation video you talk about a movie your team is evolved with.
What movie is that? :cool:
Is there any available preview site?
Can we take a peek to it or is it all part of that cover dark operation related with the tampon factory? :bowdown:

Cheers,

ericsmith
09-04-2007, 10:29 AM
We're keeping the details of our film project very quiet for now. We're still kind of in the creative/pre-production aspect of the project, and what we don't want is to go down the same road as projects like Delgo or Rustboy. I have much respect for both projects, but I think they went public before they were ready, and lost credibility for it.

Eric

ben martin
09-04-2007, 10:54 AM
We're keeping the details of our film project very quiet for now. We're still kind of in the creative/pre-production aspect of the project, and what we don't want is to go down the same road as projects like Delgo or Rustboy. I have much respect for both projects, but I think they went public before they were ready, and lost credibility for it.

Eric
I respect that!
Best luck! :thumbsup:

DiedonD
09-05-2007, 03:53 AM
Another reason I wouldnt go public is because of the hinted promise, thus preasure, into production of the movie. Preasure would kill me in that extend. I can manage Producer preasure, or a one to one person preasure, but if the public knows about it, its like a given promise to the massess, tromendous preasure which may harm artistic productivity.

Im into movies too. Anda:cool: aa.... Thats it, no more else to say :cool:

ben martin
09-05-2007, 12:53 PM
I understand all that pretty well.

Sometimes the best is just release the projects when the right time comes.
No sooner, no latter!

In my case, I’m involved with two productions (one "short 3D" and a "full live-action" short-movie with some 3D VFX scenes).

Fortunately to me both are self productions so I don’t have to deal with any kind of pressure but there are some plans to a near future "big thing" that can turn my world up-side-down! Let’s hope not! :o

Anyway…
I believe that people should try to balance the projects normal pressure with fun.
If that sense of balance become lost and the pressure takes control then (to me) it’s time to go and find a new fun factor. (fishing seems to result). :yingyang:

silviotoledo
11-02-2008, 11:10 AM
Hey Eric and Chuck

It would be really amazing if Maestro could be native inside lightwave and work with joints and so on.

StereoMike
11-02-2008, 11:59 AM
And if it could be fast... now that would be something...
(has that changed with 9.5?)

mike

Auger
11-02-2008, 07:54 PM
And if it could be fast... now that would be something...
(has that changed with 9.5?)

mike

Mike,

It works really well with 9.5. It's a few fps faster on the 64-bit version. Eric says it's even faster on LW 9.0 but I don't have that anymore to test with.

Chuck, is there a place to download 9.0 now? 9.3 is still on the downloads page, as are some versions of LW8.

Jon

NanoGator
11-03-2008, 12:22 AM
Newtek put in a couple of features for us that really improved the performance in 9.5. ;)

StereoMike
11-03-2008, 01:00 AM
Ok, that's a nice reason to update my 9.31. Any advice if I should install 9.5 or the 9.51 beta?
Is there an updated version of Maestro out?

mike

ericsmith
11-03-2008, 08:17 AM
The latest version is 2.35, which includes a fix for interaction with 9.5, as well as some fixes for 64 bit OS's (both mac and vista).

Eric

Chris S. (Fez)
11-03-2008, 09:15 AM
Eric, you guys have plans to get stretchy IK in there?

ericsmith
11-03-2008, 10:27 AM
I'm interested in doing that, but I have to first build a good, functional rig using the new tools. Doing the R&D on something like that can take time, as I don't want to put something out that breaks when put into a scenario that may not be apparent upon first design. In other words, sometimes a rig looks really good when you first put it together, but then realize that it has unacceptable limitations that you might not notice until you've used it for awhile.

The other issue that's kind of holding me back with the new tools is that I personally don't think 9.5 is production worthy yet. I'm hoping that Newtek pulls a miracle out and releases a 9.5.1 version that is as stable and fast as 9.0, but until I see that, I'm a little cautious about putting a lot of energy into 9.5 as it stands now.

Eric

ericsmith
11-03-2008, 10:35 AM
One other thing to consider is that anyone can build Maestro rig files. If you have built a rig of any sort that you like, you can create rig files to duplicate that rig (with the exception of motion plugins, which could be manually added after the rig macros have been run). More importantly, the Maestro control panel can animate anything in the scene, including custom rigs, etc.

Eric

dballesg
11-03-2008, 12:04 PM
One other thing to consider is that anyone can build Maestro rig files. If you have built a rig of any sort that you like, you can create rig files to duplicate that rig (with the exception of motion plugins, which could be manually added after the rig macros have been run). More importantly, the Maestro control panel can animate anything in the scene, including custom rigs, etc.

Eric

Hi Eric,

Yes it is true you can do that because I've done it in the pass. But is is not an EASY task. Specially if you want to add your own rigs as a button on the interface as your default rigs, etc...

And the files need to go to specific folders, now if Brian were kind enough to add an user rigs folder, a kinda content folder for LW, that allow us to copy there our rigs and use them from there :) I know I asked you before on the past about this! :)

David

StereoMike
11-03-2008, 02:47 PM
Newtek put in a couple of features for us that really improved the performance in 9.5.



I personally don't think 9.5 is production worthy yet. I'm hoping that Newtek pulls a miracle out and releases a 9.5.1 version that is as stable and fast as 9.0, but until I see that, I'm a little cautious about putting a lot of energy into 9.5 as it stands now.


Oh, ok, so back to 9.0 for animating I guess...

ericsmith
11-03-2008, 04:41 PM
But is is not an EASY task. Specially if you want to add your own rigs as a button on the interface as your default rigs, etc...

I'm a bit confused about this. All you have to do is create a command button and tie it to the rig file you've created. If you want to be a bit more sophisticated, you might want to modify the background image, but that's just a bit of photoshop work.


And the files need to go to specific folders, now if Brian were kind enough to add an user rigs folder, a kinda content folder for LW, that allow us to copy there our rigs and use them from there

But what's the problem with just copying one of the default rig files, giving it a new name, modifying it, and then creating a new button in the default startup interface. If you save that interface, it'll come up every time you launch Maestro.

I feel like one of us is missing something here...


Oh, ok, so back to 9.0 for animating I guess...

Keep in mind that this is my own personal opinion, and your mileage may vary. Many users are quite happy with 9.5, while others find it too problematic.

Also, tolerance for interaction speed varies from user to user. Personally, I want as much speed as I can get, and it would take some pretty amazing new features to trump that. I'm not sure that 9.5 has crossed that threshhold yet. But again, that's my own personal preference, and may change once I start digging in to what's there. I'm just hoping that Newtek will get the interaction speed up to 9.0 levels, and there will be nothing stopping me from moving forward.

Eric

dballesg
11-03-2008, 05:13 PM
I'm a bit confused about this. All you have to do is create a command button and tie it to the rig file you've created. If you want to be a bit more sophisticated, you might want to modify the background image, but that's just a bit of photoshop work.

Well that is what I did. But when you have more than one user rig, suddenly you lack of space to add more buttons if you want to keep the ones you originally have.

I think I sent you an email way back asking for a kind of automatic detection of user rigs, and present them as a pop-up. I will see if I can dig that email, I think I can even have a mock up of the screen, if not, I will prepare one for you so you can see what I meant.


But what's the problem with just copying one of the default rig files, giving it a new name, modifying it, and then creating a new button in the default startup interface. If you save that interface, it'll come up every time you launch Maestro.

I feel like one of us is missing something here...

I did that as well. But I always like to have separated my own stuff from the original stuff that came with maestro.

David

ericsmith
11-03-2008, 08:11 PM
I think I sent you an email way back asking for a kind of automatic detection of user rigs, and present them as a pop-up. I will see if I can dig that email, I think I can even have a mock up of the screen, if not, I will prepare one for you so you can see what I meant.

I think I recall you mentioning that, but the way the interface is built (ie. detecting mouseclicks in an open space) doesn't really allow for popup menus.

But if you need more space, you can always increase the size of the default pane.


I did that as well. But I always like to have separated my own stuff from the original stuff that came with maestro.

I can see how that makes sense. You know, I didn't think to mention this before, but the fact is, you can link command hotspots to .lsm files anywhere. They don't have to be in the rigging or LSMacros folders. That's just the default where Maestro goes when you hit the button in the command hotspot properties. But you can just navigate to another folder (it would probably be good if it was in the Maestro2 folder) and link away.

Eric

dballesg
11-04-2008, 02:47 AM
I think I recall you mentioning that, but the way the interface is built (ie. detecting mouseclicks in an open space) doesn't really allow for popup menus.

But if you need more space, you can always increase the size of the default pane.

Um it is true, I didn't thought on make the panel bigger.


I can see how that makes sense. You know, I didn't think to mention this before, but the fact is, you can link command hotspots to .lsm files anywhere. They don't have to be in the rigging or LSMacros folders. That's just the default where Maestro goes when you hit the button in the command hotspot properties. But you can just navigate to another folder (it would probably be good if it was in the Maestro2 folder) and link away.

Eric

That is a good tip, I need to rescue an old cartoon rig I have and give it a try! :)

David

mektawik
01-09-2009, 08:50 PM
Can one use the maestro rig without the interface or is the controller required to use the rig?

ericsmith
01-09-2009, 11:23 PM
The Maestro rigs are all controlled with nulls, so you can animate without the controller. But the fact is, the rigs are designed to be very uncluttered in the layout view, so accessing the controls without the control panel won't be the most efficient process.

In other words, the rigs were designed to be controlled with the controller.

I've considered creating versions of the rigs that would not require the controller, but the fact is, the controller was created because the rigs I was designing were getting too complex to keep track of all the controls when they were floating around the character--especially with multiple characters in the scene. So the bottom line is, creating rigs that don't require the controller would be kind of going against the principle that inspired the creation of Maestro in the first place.

However, here's something to consider. Maestro is flexible enough that you could modify the rigs yourself to accomodate the need to not use the controller. It really can be a TD or riggers dream tool if used to it's full capacity.

Eric

jaxtone
01-10-2009, 03:42 AM
This was a really interesting idea! Why not put Eric up as a part time developer for integrating the Maestro rigger into Lightwave itself! That would be a great solution, I think! (Eric you have no own will at all in this case! All users in need of a great CA tool in Lightwave sending our collective mind waves into your brain right now.)

Chuck! Give him an offer he can´t resist before DEA force him to work on that tampoon factory! :D



Hey Eric and Chuck

It would be really amazing if Maestro could be native inside lightwave and work with joints and so on.

jaxtone
01-10-2009, 04:12 AM
I agree on every single word you wrote there Mr. Ben Martin from Portugal!


Hey Eric,
You see my team is actually using Motion builder (single license) to animate a short movie. It is a pain, since we only have one license with 3 animators seated in the room! We "hate" (yeahh, hate is the right word :2guns: ) Autodesk because I'm not in the mood to be exploited by them. (a previous Standard Motion builder License was around $400US and now they (Autodesk) terminated that and sell only the Pro version up to $7000US) so, as for me, they can go and eat vegetables! :twak:

On other hand Lightwave does not have any decent CA tool in Lightwave, all this made us search for a useable and fast solution to our future CA needs! That's why I started this thread.

UnCommonGrafx
01-10-2009, 07:58 AM
Motionbuilder is a different beast all together... Maestro has all kinds of pluses toward it, yes, however, some of the key manipulation functions aren't available. I believe Eric may have fixed it but a symmetrical pose copier is the one thing that rings my memory of one of the big differences/lackings.

And it would be my hope that Eric stay independent: more updates and when they are ready are available in this way. Otherwise, we would have to wait until some testing phase or whatnot. I would prefer to see NT give LW more functionality and speed to the ogl for animation/CA purposes. Deformations are a mess an are no "formal" deformers.

I am as guilty as many other wavers with Maestro: we haven't shared some of the weird rigs/panels we've made. The real power is in the control panel; rigs are quite secondary, to be honest. A proper face panel for a set name of joint controllers is going to be the next coolest thing. Some of the tests I've seen belie the opportunity for just such a control panel.

Any updates coming up, Eric?

jaxtone
01-10-2009, 08:24 AM
According to Eric I agree he would do his best as an independent inventor, that´s why I wrote PART TIME!


Motionbuilder is a different beast all together... Maestro has all kinds of pluses toward it, yes, however, some of the key manipulation functions aren't available. I believe Eric may have fixed it but a symmetrical pose copier is the one thing that rings my memory of one of the big differences/lackings.

And it would be my hope that Eric stay independent: more updates and when they are ready are available in this way. Otherwise, we would have to wait until some testing phase or whatnot. I would prefer to see NT give LW more functionality and speed to the ogl for animation/CA purposes. Deformations are a mess an are no "formal" deformers.

I am as guilty as many other wavers with Maestro: we haven't shared some of the weird rigs/panels we've made. The real power is in the control panel; rigs are quite secondary, to be honest. A proper face panel for a set name of joint controllers is going to be the next coolest thing. Some of the tests I've seen belie the opportunity for just such a control panel.

Any updates coming up, Eric?

UnCommonGrafx
01-10-2009, 08:46 AM
Chuckle, but that's what he does NOW... since we're shouting our points.
snicker...

ericsmith
01-18-2009, 09:18 AM
I am as guilty as many other wavers with Maestro: we haven't shared some of the weird rigs/panels we've made. The real power is in the control panel; rigs are quite secondary, to be honest. A proper face panel for a set name of joint controllers is going to be the next coolest thing. Some of the tests I've seen belie the opportunity for just such a control panel.

Any updates coming up, Eric?

I think it's worth noting that joints are still just bones from an object point of view. So you can manipulate them with hotspots just like any other object. There's no need to update Maestro to be compatible with them.

geo_n
07-07-2011, 07:58 AM
Raising from the dead since core app is dead.
Will maestro be as fast or even faster in lw 10 cycle with optimizations. I think some meastro users already fogged this including myself. Sometime after lw hc siggraph the plugin just stopped working as fast as in lw 9.6.