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tinytimw52
07-06-2007, 03:33 PM
Should I use lightwave or maya? I just want to have fun with it. Which is better, thanks.

Tim

bluerider
07-06-2007, 03:40 PM
what do you want to do in particular. If you give some clues as to possible objectives then it will be easier to ascertain what would be the most useful for you.

Stooch
07-06-2007, 03:54 PM
that is a stupid question. not the question itself but the way it was asked.

calilifestyle
07-06-2007, 04:16 PM
rock paper scissors, it

SplineGod
07-06-2007, 04:18 PM
If you JUST want to have fun Id get the full version of Maya and any plugins too. :)

StereoMike
07-06-2007, 07:04 PM
Why asking this on the developer's homepage? What do you expect?
An unbiased answer?

So, I'd say go for lightwave.
mike

t4d
07-06-2007, 07:14 PM
If you JUST want to have fun Id get the full version of Maya and any plugins too. :)

YEAH I agree with you Larry,. FUN = Maya
( business is a different, it all depend on what you aiming to do to make a Dollar from ..)

Andyjaggy
07-06-2007, 07:18 PM
Truespace all the way baby.

jasonwestmas
07-06-2007, 08:17 PM
With Fprime, Lightwave is more fun to render in than mental ray. Maya is more fun to animate with in general. But money wise if you want to debate cheap vs. quality vs. fun it depends on what you want to do.

cresshead
07-06-2007, 08:43 PM
get wordpad...ascii art rules!...rendertimes are faaaast!

SplineGod
07-06-2007, 08:53 PM
Of course 99% of the people here knew I was kidding. Fun for me is being able to jump in, get something done and see the result quickly. Anything else is just work. :)

Mr Rid
07-06-2007, 10:58 PM
Course, everyone has a different idea of what 'fun' may be. I think LW allows you to wear more hats. Maya pipelines tend to require more specialized skills.

But if you are considering a career- in December 2006, I counted the job listings for each 3D app on VFXpro- Maya- 22, XSI- 7, Max- 6, LW- 4, Cinema 4D- 4, Poser-1.

Maya is associated with a lot of Academy Award winning FX. Lightwave makes good cars and spaceships.

I heard one someone put it as, 'Maya is like a Formula 1 racer that requires a team to keep it running smooth. Max is ike a Porsche that an individual can race around in on his own. Lightwave is... well, an affordable and economical car that will get you around town reliably.

SplineGod
07-06-2007, 11:22 PM
As I recall LW and several shows done with LW earned some emmies ;)

archijam
07-07-2007, 01:06 AM
I heard one someone put it as, 'Maya is like a Formula 1 racer that requires a team to keep it running smooth. Max is ike a Porsche that an individual can race around in on his own. Lightwave is... well, an affordable and economical car that will get you around town reliably.

I usually agree with you, but Lightwave is clearly a classic, and with far more leg space than a porsche...

I would use this (http://members.aol.com/elsquared/gordcar2.jpg) for comparison.

Think of the air-intake and nitros as plugins :)

j.

ps. Anyone on the forums had a go at modelling the interceptor, by the way?

archijam
07-07-2007, 01:11 AM
Should I use lightwave or maya? I just want to have fun with it. Which is better, thanks.

Tim

Here is a comparison chart (http://wiki.cgsociety.org/index.php/Comparison_of_3d_tools) ... though the FUN factor is not shown ...



j.

Mr Rid
07-07-2007, 05:57 AM
Here is a comparison chart (http://wiki.cgsociety.org/index.php/Comparison_of_3d_tools) ... though the FUN factor is not shown ...

j.

... neither is the quality or versatility of each feature compared.

Yeah, Lightwave and Houdini both have particles. But the difference in what you can do with the particles is like say the difference between throwing a bullit and shooting it.

Mr Rid
07-07-2007, 05:59 AM
I usually agree with you, but Lightwave is clearly a classic, and with far more leg space than a porsche...

Could say the same for a Model T.

sammael
07-07-2007, 06:40 AM
Should I use lightwave or maya? I just want to have fun with it. Which is better, thanks.

Tim

You should just stick to masterbating.

Bog
07-07-2007, 07:36 AM
Which is better? Screwdrivers or hammers?

Different tools for different jobs. I think LW is fun. I think most people here generally do, or they'd be posting on a Maya forum. Which is why you, er, won't hear from many Maya users here. 'N'stuff.

cresshead
07-07-2007, 07:58 AM
screwdrivers everytime!...you can use them as hammers as wel!

Andyjaggy
07-07-2007, 08:06 AM
Haven't seen you around much lately Bog.

prospector
07-07-2007, 08:50 AM
'Maya is like a Formula 1 racer that requires a team to keep it running smooth. Max is ike a Porsche that an individual can race around in on his own. Lightwave is... well, an affordable and economical car that will get you around town reliably.


LW is more like a Hummer, it will get you where the others go, but I like taking all the back routes.
You could cruise down the superhighway with those others, but what do you learn?
With LW if you come across a stumbling block thats not a smooth ride, LW gets down and dirty and gets you through a few other ways that other programs (ie cars) would choke on.

And that's where 3D learning comes in.



As I recall LW and several shows done with LW earned some emmies

Have to remember, these young whippersnappers don't remember back to Star Trek days. :D :D



But if you are considering a career- in December 2006, I counted the job listings for each 3D app on VFXpro- Maya- 22, XSI- 7, Max- 6, LW- 4, Cinema 4D- 4, Poser-1.


This is kinda misleading.
If you only count working for a major 3D house for Hollywood then your chances are better if you just buy a lottery ticket to win and retire.
But if you count the hundreds of local stations (over air or cable), or work for local companies, or start your own local buisness, you'd never have to buy a lottery ticket.

bluerider
07-07-2007, 10:03 AM
Maya is associated with a lot of Academy Award winning FX. Lightwave makes good cars and spaceships.

I heard one someone put it as, 'Maya is like a Formula 1 racer that requires a team to keep it running smooth. Max is ike a Porsche that an individual can race around in on his own. Lightwave is... well, an affordable and economical car that will get you around town reliably.

And make films like "300".

AbnRanger
07-07-2007, 11:20 AM
Should I use lightwave or maya? I just want to have fun with it. Which is better, thanks.

TimIf price is an important criteria, then LW is King in that department...if it's not, and you are asking which has the most features...no doubt it's Maya Unlimited, weighing in at $7000...whereas LW can do 90-95% of that out of the box for $895. The remaining 5-10% can be done with the addition of some either free or relatively inexpensive plugins.
One thing to note...and a very important one at that...Neither Maya, Max, or XSI has an interactive render like FPrime (available Render plugin...only for LW).
Once you've modeled everything and are ready to apply materials and setup your lighting, FPrime makes LW the reigning and undisputed champion in this part of CG workflow. Others have to make countless revisions while WAITING on test renders (which can take anywhere from a few seconds to several hours for each revision...this can chew up hours and hours of your time). With FPrime, AS YOU WORK the full render updates in near real-time. You don't have to stop and wait on a test render to see the result. It's flat out amazing.
When I work in 3ds Max, the closest thing I have to that is what's called Distributed Bucket Rendering (I use finalRender), where it puts multiple computers to work on one frame by distributing the render workload to each machine in square "Bucket's".
Even if I had 10 CPU's, it still could not touch FPrime. Having FPrime is just like being given the answers to a final exam in Trigonometry...where the rest of your classmates aren't so lucky.

SplineGod
07-07-2007, 12:11 PM
Have you seen senseis bucket renderer?
http://www.trueart.eu/?URIType=Directory&URI=Products/Plug-Ins

AbnRanger
07-07-2007, 01:03 PM
Mental-Ray is an included bucket renderer in MayaIt does in Max too, but there are a number of limitations, like the fact that you can't use Contour Lines..aka cartoon lines...with DR(that's one reason I prefer finalRender Stage 1 over Mental Ray...a lot less fussy than MR, and much faster). But my point was that DR is really the closest thing other programs have to FPrime, and it still doesn't even come close.

cresshead
07-07-2007, 01:23 PM
It does in Max too, but there are a number of limitations, like the fact that you can't use Contour Lines..aka cartoon lines...with DR(that's one reason I prefer finalRender Stage 1 over Mental Ray...a lot less fussy than MR, and much faster). But my point was that DR is really the closest thing other programs have to FPrime, and it still doesn't even come close.

what's DR?:confused:

archijam
07-07-2007, 01:43 PM
Should I use lightwave or maya? I just want to have fun with it. Which is better, thanks.

Has anyone looked at his 2 other posts? Actually I think his question is: "Which is easier, more friendly to learn the basics and get a cool looking result?" Ie. fun.

Maybe he just wants to roll a red ball around a white box. Who knows?

Maya I use for a few things but find painful for arch-vis. I use LW for that.

j.

toby
07-07-2007, 01:57 PM
I just want to have fun with it.
Lightwave, generally.
If you only did rigging, animating or dynamics, I'd say Maya.

Stooch
07-07-2007, 03:24 PM
If price is an important criteria, then LW is King in that department...if it's not, and you are asking which has the most features...no doubt it's Maya Unlimited, weighing in at $7000...whereas LW can do 90-95% of that out of the box for $895. The remaining 5-10% can be done with the addition of some either free or relatively inexpensive plugins.
One thing to note...and a very important one at that...Neither Maya, Max, or XSI has an interactive render like FPrime (available Render plugin...only for LW).
Once you've modeled everything and are ready to apply materials and setup your lighting, FPrime makes LW the reigning and undisputed champion in this part of CG workflow. Others have to make countless revisions while WAITING on test renders (which can take anywhere from a few seconds to several hours for each revision...this can chew up hours and hours of your time). With FPrime, AS YOU WORK the full render updates in near real-time. You don't have to stop and wait on a test render to see the result. It's flat out amazing.
When I work in 3ds Max, the closest thing I have to that is what's called Distributed Bucket Rendering (I use finalRender), where it puts multiple computers to work on one frame by distributing the render workload to each machine in square "Bucket's".
Even if I had 10 CPU's, it still could not touch FPrime. Having FPrime is just like being given the answers to a final exam in Trigonometry...where the rest of your classmates aren't so lucky.

please do not spew such misleading trash again.

Stooch
07-07-2007, 03:30 PM
Here is a comparison chart (http://wiki.cgsociety.org/index.php/Comparison_of_3d_tools) ... though the FUN factor is not shown ...



j.


that chart is horribly inaccurate too. lw does not have usable hair, sbodies, cloth, fluid and alot of the stuff that the chart claims lw has is in a sorry, unusable state. whoever did that chart needs to actually use the software first. its like they went through the software features and made a little chart (and we all know how optimistic some of the claims can be)

again, this question cannot be answered because it was asked in an idiotic fashion. the best the original poster is going to get are favoritism based opinions on a forum that is biased towards LW.

theo
07-07-2007, 03:33 PM
please do not spew such misleading trash again.

GOD! Can you please find it within yourself to be a little more friendly, Stooch? I swear! I can live with "spewing" and "misleading" but is it so blasted necessary to refer to a community members' verbage as trash?

Stooch
07-07-2007, 03:35 PM
GOD! Can you please find it within yourself to be a little more friendly, Stooch? I swear! I can live with "spewing" and "misleading" but is it so blasted necessary to refer to a community members' verbage as trash?


sorry. i call it like i see it. :)

i just dont like when people get mislead. my suggestion is to try the demos and make your own decision.

archijam
07-07-2007, 03:49 PM
that chart is horribly inaccurate too.

I agree wholeheartedly. Actually the reason I found the chart was searching for a price comparison.

I can't talk about the film or gaming industries (or areas within LW) .. not my area.

Here's how it works in my neck-o-the-woods.

The architecture school gets hundreds of Maya Unlimited licences for nothing. The students learn to use maya as they are told. The students graduate, maya pros, and almost no (archi) office out there uses Maya (here). The student promptly learns Cinema 4D (due to mac dominance of archi offices).

At 7 times the cost for one seat, it is impossible for a (archi) small office to justify Maya. Actually I think the Maya marketing team were great, but I am angry at institutions who want to use 'the best software', which ends up as years learning a great tool you will barely get the chance to use.

I like LW :)

j.

cresshead
07-07-2007, 03:51 PM
my opinion as a max and lw user is that of swings and roundabouts...

lw with fprime is really good for nr instant feedback of lighting setup but on the other hand, rigging, motion capture, non linear editing, hair, fluids is not such a good workflow for lightwave, dare is say pretty poor workflow/results in fact.

back to lw good points..it's easy to learn a much shallower curve than maya i believe and a lower cost of ownership inc keeping uptodate.

so depends on what you want/need from your 3d app.

as for maya being 7 times the cost...Hmmm..there are 2 versions of maya and 'complete' is verty capable of arch viz, no need for unlimited....don't play the complete as the crippled version as you can point to lw in that regard with no option other than VERY expensive plugins to add on like syflex etc...

toby
07-07-2007, 03:58 PM
sorry. i call it like i see it. :)
So if Abnranger were to call you a scumbag :), because 'that's the way he sees it', you'd be fine with that, and tell him where to stick his head. And the Newtek forum becomes a giant pissing match, while you proclaim your innocence.


i just dont like when people get mislead. my suggestion is to try the demos and make your own decision.
There's nothing wrong with adding your opinion on the subject. It's a right that you abuse in every thread - by insulting someone else for posting theirs. Why not correct him and actually undo his misleading if you really give a damn if he misleads anyone?

toby
07-07-2007, 04:02 PM
FPrime will preview raytrace shadows, reflection, radiosity and volumetrics, right? I haven't used the latest FPrime, so does it preview anything else like hair?

Do any other previewers show you these things?

archijam
07-07-2007, 04:09 PM
as for maya being 7 times the cost...Hmmm..there are 2 versions of maya and 'complete' is verty capable of arch viz, no need for unlimited....don't play the complete as the crippled version as you can point to lw in that regard with no option other than VERY expensive plugins to add on like syflex etc...

Never seen Complete, they wouldn't touch it here .. so 3 times the cost it is, I'll take your word for it that it does everything.

In the past I was happy with fprime and hd-instance .. I still don't use LWCAD.

What's syflex? Are there no expensive plugins for maya?

j.

archijam
07-07-2007, 04:11 PM
FPrime will preview raytrace shadows, reflection, radiosity and volumetrics, right?

Not all volumetrics (plugins like HD I for example).

j.

Stooch
07-07-2007, 05:02 PM
So if Abnranger were to call you a scumbag :), because 'that's the way he sees it', you'd be fine with that, and tell him where to stick his head. And the Newtek forum becomes a giant pissing match, while you proclaim your innocence.

There's nothing wrong with adding your opinion on the subject. It's a right that you abuse in every thread - by insulting someone else for posting theirs. Why not correct him and actually undo his misleading if you really give a damn if he misleads anyone?

do you ever cease bitching toby? yes he can call me what he wants. although there is a difference between calling what someone says as trash and insulting someone directly.

cry me a river - i dont see anything useful coming out of your posts anyway.

as far as undoing the trash taht was spewed. If you actually take the time to read my post you can clearly see where i recommended the OP to try the software and see what he prefers. which is by far the most valuable and intelligent advice in this thread. but of course you arent here to help anyone, seems that you are more eager to engage in those pissing matches you claim to deplore.

Stooch
07-07-2007, 05:30 PM
FPrime will preview raytrace shadows, reflection, radiosity and volumetrics, right? I haven't used the latest FPrime, so does it preview anything else like hair?

Do any other previewers show you these things?

actually one of the biggest drawbacks to fprime is that IT DOSENT preview volumetrics nor hair. for me those are the most important things TO PREVIEW. I can usually get my lighting and texturing right in a few tries anyway, that just comes from experience. but things like hair and volumetrics can vary drastically from shot to shot, so they actually need realtime preview the most. ironically VIPER works better than frpime for those applications, although i find that the final output does not match the preview.

Dodgy
07-07-2007, 05:34 PM
(I declare myself as not advocating the word trash in this instance - please substitute with suitable word of own choosing).

Yes, I don't think he's had much experience with Maya :)

I remember when IPR came out, it was limited yes, but quite cool! Much better than Viper is in every regard. The way you can drop a shader on to the rendered image(pixels) and actually update the object you drop it on, is brilliant imo. It was quite a time saver and very functional.

Saying that LightWave can do 90% of what Maya does, is also incredibly far fetched.

I could come up with differences and pros and cons all day and noone would listen anyway.

I love LightWave, don't get me wrong on that! But Maya simply has too many things that LW can't touch. I'll just finish with one of the more obvious ones. Modeling history than can be fully animated.

Now you're being misleading. I use maya every day at work and I really don't see what the fuss is about. It's really good at some things, but then there are things it can't touch LW for. I have a huge long list of things I've found to be suspect and downright rubbish in maya, just like I have in every 3d package I've used. Gotta just love the way it keeps hiding all the polys in the UV editor when you select some. The whole way View selected works, or doesn't. The lovely way Polygons>Smooth smooths all the normals on your object, not just the polys you have selected. The list goes on. I'm not the only one. Lots of my collegues swear at it as often as they praise it. And it's on version 8 now, with all this stuff still broken. Simple stuff.

Fprime is a massive advantage. It makes everything so much easier, and there isn't anything to touch it.

I'm not saying LW is perfect, but it's far better than you and Stooch make it out to be, and there's less of a gap than you might think. I really don't see why you're here Stooch, you're the one who rarely makes a constructive comment, not Toby.

Stooch
07-07-2007, 05:36 PM
i make plenty of constructive comments. you just choose not to see them. I am here because i use lw professionally.

your complaints are about mays workflow. we are talking about features. if you want to talk about workflow, maya has lw beat in many many areas. infact if its about "having fun" while using a program, i would recommend modo.

heh, putting on flame suit because i know truth hurts.

StereoMike
07-07-2007, 05:50 PM
I find it funny how people hack'n slash on lightwave but stick to this board and obviously to LW. Yeah, sure, using it professionally...why don't you buy a program that you really want? I mean, you make money for your living (at least I do), so why don't you pick what better suits you?

mike

cresshead
07-07-2007, 05:59 PM
no app is perfect..be that max, maya, lightwave or xsi...being aware of other apps capabilities doesn't mean we don't want to use lightwave...we look at those apps for possibly enhancements we may get over in lightwave in new updates or new workflows in the future.

lw is pretty darn good...could be better...but so could max, maya and xsi...
we'd like some of the cool stuff seen over on other apps over in lw and no doubt maya/max and xsi users would like some of lw tools and workflows too.

Stooch
07-07-2007, 06:00 PM
its not about picking anything. i dont buy programs because i like them. i buy them to achieve a goal. i have no personal attachment to any and will buy or use what is necessary at the time. I am not here hacking or slashing on anything. what you are perceiving as hacking and slashing are actually plain facts. Modo is my "favorite" program TODAY but i do not use it in production, it has many flaws that I am aware of and have no problems with anyone who points them out to me. I will however step in and prevent people from spending money with the expectation that it can achieve something when in fact there are much better solutions. thats why the original question is bad, its too broad.

Mr Rid
07-07-2007, 06:22 PM
As I recall LW and several shows done with LW earned some emmies ;)

Thus the 'cars and spaceships' part.

StereoMike
07-07-2007, 06:23 PM
its not about picking anything. i dont buy programs because i like them. i buy them to achieve a goal. i have no personal attachment to any and will buy or use what is necessary at the time. I am not here hacking or slashing on anything. what you are perceiving as hacking and slashing are actually plain facts. Modo is my "favorite" program TODAY but i do not use it in production, it has many flaws that I am aware of and have no problems with anyone who points them out to me. I will however step in and prevent people from spending money with the expectation that it can achieve something when in fact there are much better solutions. thats why the original question is bad, its too broad.

Good, that's what I expected. But people who doesn't know you (as guys dropping by the first time) might think you just have issues with the one application you described in this thread. But you have issues with other apps too (every app?) so this information helps to put your comments into the picture.

mike

cresshead
07-07-2007, 06:28 PM
...and jimmy neutron, dan dare, starship troopers roughnecks, freedom, and max steel....balanced...plus many films for modeling/rendering assests for ilm and pixar

Stooch
07-07-2007, 06:34 PM
Good, that's what I expected. But people who doesn't know you (as guys dropping by the first time) might think you just have issues with the one application you described in this thread. But you have issues with other apps too (every app?) so this information helps to put your comments into the picture.

mike

:) of course. i can sit here and list you all kinds of problems with any app. and i can go and ***** about them on all the forums. in fact, if i ***** at all - it is an indicator that i care about a particular program more than others. i just wont let that cloud my judgment :) I think that LW gives you alot for the money. but you get what you pay for, so don't let the low price play too much into favoritism. There are many reasons why programs like maya and xsi are worth their price. the question is what you need them to do. For example, in a larger studio, buying lots of seats can get very expensive. but if you weigh the price of licenses against wasted billable man hours, the costs of applications becomes irrelevant. this varies on the available budget as well. but it should explain to many why so many big studios shell out the money for maya. its just works and gives them what they need. *yet you still see lw copies floating around anyway.. heh

t4d
07-07-2007, 06:39 PM
Lightwave, generally.
If you only did rigging, animating or dynamics, I'd say Maya.

well what are you doing if you don't need to Rig, animate or have dynmics in your work ? ( and even if the render is good what about render passes ?? does newtek know about this method of workflow ?? )

even if your just doing motion graphic's you want good animation controls ?

and well Lightwave's not the best modeler,. it has had only alittle more attention then LW's animation system in the past 5 or 6 years
( pretty much only added some red strips if we are talking car Logic )

You Lightwave guys Have no idea what your missing and like most when you switch you'll blow right out
( like every other artist who has switch in the last 3 or 4 years the list is VERY long now !! and notice how none have come back except to tell you to join them ??!! )

LW'ers will be very surprise what is going on in 2007 - 2008 when the day comes that they look else where.

Newtek has alittle windows left open ( modo won;t have full animation untill 403 ) but I hear more render work going on for LW with NO ANIMATION or MODELER Improvements ??

Come on !! .. this has to be the most misguided Software rewrite in 3D history ??
and you lw only users are paying the price of being left behide :thumbsdow

t4d
07-07-2007, 06:46 PM
...and jimmy neutron, dan dare, starship troopers roughnecks, freedom, and max steel....balanced...plus many films for modeling/rendering assests for ilm and pixar

all of those used lightwave version 5.6, 6 or 7 where at version 9.2 aren't we ?

and I would go as far as say ALL of the LW modelers ( ILM, Pixar ) now use Modo. ( check the Modo forums ;)

( Taron is the only High end artist I know that still uses LW modeler and is willing to promote the fact, But he did create the LW logo so I would too ;) and even he is very open about the fact He would not uses LW layout or render in any productions.

Castius
07-07-2007, 06:55 PM
Why was this thread not closed as soon as it was posted?

cresshead
07-07-2007, 06:58 PM
freedom is a recent lw gig...it's just come out on HDVD.

my view was that lightwave has either in the recent past or more distant past also done more than 'flying/skidding boxes'.

and taron's a messiah geezer too i believe so he'll be using that for rendering...

ILM used lighsnack for that 'dustbin' shot if i remember correctly...[r2d2]

archijam
07-07-2007, 06:58 PM
...and jimmy neutron, dan dare, starship troopers roughnecks, freedom, and max steel....balanced...plus many films for modeling/rendering assests for ilm and pixar

I'm pretty sure Mr Rid worked on Jimmy Neutron, Cress ;) - as well as many other LW film releases ..

By the way Mr Rid - your new avatar gives me the creeps! :) Where do I know that guy from?

j.

cresshead
07-07-2007, 07:05 PM
what xsi lacks and skip fulls is render nodes...and being tied to mentalray will always mean expensive add on liecences for large scale rendering...so lightwave actually fits into many peoples piplines with it's free 999 nodes for STUDIOS in tv and film production so it makes perfect sense to build better faster renderer when softimage continue to cripple xsi with 8 nodes if you spend $6000.

note autocash managed to broker a deal that gives 3dsmax via backburner unlimited rendernodes for mantal ray...xsi look really poo in comparison for that particular capability...and with limited other render options...makes lighsnack look VERY tempting for rendering with 1 liecence giving a studio 999 nodes....

cresshead
07-07-2007, 07:09 PM
I'm pretty sure Mr Rid worked on Jimmy Neutron, Cress ;) - as well as many other LW film releases ..

By the way Mr Rid - your new avatar gives me the creeps! :) Where do I know that guy from?

j.

Hmm you maybe right!
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0725959/

SplineGod
07-07-2007, 07:10 PM
Thus the 'cars and spaceships' part.

Crowd/soldier scenes in The Last Samurai...
Creatures on James Camerons Aliens of The Deep...
Im sure there are others. :)

cresshead
07-07-2007, 07:24 PM
there are those who can only ''see'' boxes...

''you have to look with better eyes than that''
[abyss quote]


:D

Dodgy
07-07-2007, 07:27 PM
well what are you doing if you don't need to Rig, animate or have dynmics in your work ? ( and even if the render is good what about render passes ?? does newtek know about this method of workflow ?? )


You Lightwave guys Have no idea what your missing and like most when you switch you'll blow right out

You keep saying that, but I know maya very well, and I'm still here. XSI, you may be right about, but I'm only just getting to grips with that, so you'll have to wait for that switch a bit longer :)



( like every other artist who has switch in the last 3 or 4 years the list is VERY long now !! and notice how none have come back except to tell you to join them ??!! )

Out of the goodness of their hearts? Nice to know they care so much.


LW'ers will be very surprise what is going on in 2007 - 2008 when the day comes that they look else where.

We can already see, we're not blind.


Newtek has alittle windows left open ( modo won;t have full animation untill 403 ) but I hear more render work going on for LW with NO ANIMATION or MODELER Improvements ??

Where do you hear that? All I've heard is animation is the next big task. Modelling alongside it, so that tells me something about where that's going...


Come on !! .. this has to be the most misguided Software rewrite in 3D history ??
and you lw only users are paying the price of being left behide :thumbsdow

You're obviously not going to be persuaded that LW can get better, so really there's no point arguing with you any more, you must only come on here to troll.

Mr Rid
07-07-2007, 07:32 PM
And make films like "300".
LW most often finds its way into fast turn around (read 'lower budget') FX projects (300 was a crunch job), for hard surface objects and environment. On 300, Ive seen only that LW was used in one scene for arrows and spears, set extensions, and one relatively simple smoke effect that Jeremy Hunt stated was the old morph thru bones trick that offers more control than dynamics. Its not as if these things couldnt be easily done in any 3D app.

Meanwhile, the heavy chores like the ships in storm waves disentegrated on the shore were done with Scanline proprietary, the wolf with snowflakes landing in its fur in XSI, Maya for digital soldiers, flying limbs and the big arrow swarm, Maya, Flame and RealFlow for gore FX and some fire, Syflex for cloth, Massive for crowds, Maya for the Elephants. 2D tools played the biggest role.

t4d
07-07-2007, 07:42 PM
because they appear daily and there's no stopping the fact that LW is in need of help. ( EG- many artist leaving,. I even see "LW Girl" Werner now uses XSI )

LW will get the Newbie's interest, from it's history..
But alittle googling has them looking at the Maya's and XSI's out there.

and no matter how hard the LW Fans defend it, Lightwave has to show real signs of major progress to stop this subject always showing up on these forums every day ....

in other words the only people who can really stop this subject is the Lightwave developement team. by addressing the issues that the users really want, and have posted here for many Years,... Instead of just adding marketing terms and not giving real improvement to the worflow

so it's competitive against Maya and the like.

jasonwestmas
07-07-2007, 07:42 PM
XSI is very nice, Mental Ray is a rip off. Newtek cares and it shows. I sure do like the LW renderer and it's cheap, you're limited mosty to how many processors you have now. Everything else can be done elsewhere and it doesn't bother me one bit. Like for modeling, I don't really care where it's done, it's easy to learn modeling tools, the real trick is to have the eye and patience to do it.

t4d
07-07-2007, 07:55 PM
You keep saying that, but I know maya very well, and I'm still here. XSI, you may be right about, but I'm only just getting to grips with that, so you'll have to wait for that switch a bit longer :)

you are the only one



Where do you hear that? All I've heard is animation is the next big task. Modelling alongside it, so that tells me something about where that's going...


I have readed afew times that Final Gathering is being worked on for LW WTF??
when Jay started Rendering was not one of LW's problem areas at all...
but all that has really been worked on, is what Jay is a guru at ..rendering ??

why didn't newtek hire a Animation or modeling guru ??
maybe LW would be in a better place right now ???
and they should have left rendering to Worley with Fprime etc...
Just imagen if we had LW 8's render but with Full and complete Fprime support
and could truely see modeler and animation growing in V9 ?

Maya, XSI, Max all Now leave the render tech to third parties and just focus on the front end ..seem like a good idea to me ?



You're obviously not going to be persuaded that LW can get better, so really there's no point arguing with you any more, you must only come on here to troll.

the old troll word to end a rant, What class :thumbsup:

I started in LW, I still work for LW studio's and freelance artists and LW is one of my tools I uses, ( the only big one i don't own is Max )
it's 2007 You use the right tool for the job, 3D is not a $100 000 a program industry any more and it's easy to shop around.

sammael
07-07-2007, 08:02 PM
Honestly t4d I dont know why you bother posting here at all. The only contribution you ever make here is to threads that are somehow against LW and your always the strongest advocate. Clearly you hate the program with a passion so why waste your time coming here?
It's XSI this Maya that bla bla bla, since your the biggest XSI/Maya fanboy on the planet why not go and heap those programs with praise in their own communities.
You have already made your point quite clearly around here on countless occasions and although some of the points you make are quite valid theres realy no need to state them time and again, nobody has forgotten since last time you said it.
Time to move on buddy you'll just shorten your life span due to stress and agrivation hanging around here.

t4d
07-07-2007, 08:06 PM
what xsi lacks and skip fulls is render nodes...and being tied to mentalray will always mean expensive add on liecences for large scale rendering...so lightwave actually fits into many peoples piplines with it's free 999 nodes for STUDIOS in tv and film production so it makes perfect sense to build better faster renderer when softimage continue to cripple xsi with 8 nodes if you spend $6000.
.

this is a Major negative to XSI I agree I have got afew MR nodes i had to purchase.. But it's one of the only negative you will hear of in XSI and it's can be fixed ( Maxwell, Pixar renderman or 3Deight ) and Vray and afew other will be joining XSI very soon .. problem solved..

Now the problems LW has ... the list is huge and well no point in writing pages of what is already known by most here....

all that is need is some Clear Progress shown in LW in the areas it need it most ( animation mainly and a major tidy up of Modeler ) ..
yet it still seems rendering is still the main focus of development ?
silly when most would prefer to just have Fprime working fully and better modeling and animation tools ??

Mr Rid
07-07-2007, 08:16 PM
I'm pretty sure Mr Rid worked on Jimmy Neutron, Cress ;) - as well as many other LW film releases ..

By the way Mr Rid - your new avatar gives me the creeps! :) Where do I know that guy from?

j.

I only worked on the Jimmy Neutron ride film. BTW Jimmy Neutron, once the poster boy for Lightwave, was turned over to Maya when production really kicked in. Wonder why.

But yes, Ive been around and know very well what LW's place is in feature film production.

toby
07-07-2007, 08:23 PM
well what are you doing if you don't need to Rig, animate or have dynmics in your work ?
Arch viz/stills? Flying logos? Spaceships?


even if your just doing motion graphic's you want good animation controls ?

and well Lightwave's not the best modeler,. it has had only alittle more attention then LW's animation system in the past 5 or 6 years
( pretty much only added some red strips if we are talking car Logic )

You Lightwave guys Have no idea what your missing and like most when you switch you'll blow right out
( like every other artist who has switch in the last 3 or 4 years the list is VERY long now !! and notice how none have come back except to tell you to join them ??!! )

LW'ers will be very surprise what is going on in 2007 - 2008 when the day comes that they look else where.

Newtek has alittle windows left open ( modo won;t have full animation untill 403 ) but I hear more render work going on for LW with NO ANIMATION or MODELER Improvements ??

Come on !! .. this has to be the most misguided Software rewrite in 3D history ??
and you lw only users are paying the price of being left behide :thumbsdow
I'm certainly not saying LW is better than Maya, I highlighted the part where he said 'fun' - I'd never call Maya 'fun' unless I had to rig, animate characters or do dynamics, 'cuz those can be dissappointing or just impossible in LW.

If you just wanted to do spaceships, flying logos, simple animation, still images, if you want to model, texture, rig, animate, light and render a short film all by yourself, I wouldn't recommend Maya, it's a lot more expensive and may not be worth it if he's "just having fun".

Mr Rid
07-07-2007, 08:24 PM
and no matter how hard the LW Fans defend it, Lightwave has to show real signs of major progress to stop this subject always showing up on these forums every day ....

in other words the only people who can really stop this subject is the Lightwave developement team. by addressing the issues that the users really want, and have posted here for many Years,... Instead of just adding marketing terms and not giving real improvement to the worflow

so it's competitive against Maya and the like.

YAAAAY! So some of us are still left and the pod people have not yet taken over.

Pod person (pod prsn), noun. any human being whose independent will has been irretrievably absorbed by the collective consciousness of the mysterious pods that fell from space around the year 2000 near to the time that the notorious LW6 was released. The evil space pods slither up to the sleeping heads of known Lightwave users, absorb and destroy the host while regenerating a physical replica of a 3D animator in most respects, but who from then on views updates to the LW software that a rational human would readily see as career-changingly disappointing and bug ridden, instead as a 'challenge' requiring creative 'workarounds' which the pods pride themselves on tediously developing. The pods derive pleasure and purpose in submitting elaborate bug reports to the pod core, and share a soul blinding belief that LW is the greatest 3D software ever created, and who will passionately defend it's shortcomings as "advantages"- i.e: the growing scarcity of LW employment as an opportunity to dominate a shrinking market. Like a cult member, religious fanatic or Trekkie, a pod can not be reasoned with and will see all arguments of logic contrary to the glory of LW as a personal confrontation and will only respond in a spine-curdling shriek. Although unconfirmed, it is widely believed that the only defense against such attacks is to keep one's own head, home and children wrapped in printed pages from the Maya manual.

Mr Rid
07-07-2007, 08:39 PM
Arch viz/stills? Flying logos? Spaceships?
- I'd never call Maya 'fun' unless I had to rig, animate characters or do dynamics, 'cuz those can be dissappointing or just impossible in LW.

Correct. C'mon Newtek.

t4d
07-07-2007, 09:11 PM
Honestly t4d I dont know why you bother posting here at all. The only contribution you ever make here is to threads that are somehow against LW and your always the strongest advocate. Clearly you hate the program with a passion so why waste your time coming here?
It's XSI this Maya that bla bla bla, since your the biggest XSI/Maya fanboy on the planet why not go and heap those programs with praise in their own communities.
You have already made your point quite clearly around here on countless occasions and although some of the points you make are quite valid theres realy no need to state them time and again, nobody has forgotten since last time you said it.
Time to move on buddy you'll just shorten your life span due to stress and agrivation hanging around here.

well there are still guys posting ( in this thread ) " they working on it" or " you wait and see, I hear it's coming very soon "
just long as i have voiced my opinion of what need to be improved ??

yet Some seem to prefer to listen to promise's year after year then ask for improvement ?

Hey Each to there own :thumbsup:
enjoy your art :thumbsup:

toby
07-07-2007, 09:25 PM
do you ever cease bitching toby?
Sorry, I 'call it like I see it'.


yes he can call me what he wants. although there is a difference between calling what someone says as trash and insulting someone directly.

cry me a river - i dont see anything useful coming out of your posts anyway.
Of course you wouldn't, you prefer the freedom to talk smack and attack people. Oh sorry, attack people's posts. (huuuge difference)



as far as undoing the trash taht was spewed. If you actually take the time to read my post you can clearly see
"that is a stupid question. not the question itself but the way it was asked."
"please do not spew such misleading trash again."
Ya, real useful posts. Got me beat.

where i recommended the OP to try the software and see what he prefers. which is by far the most valuable and intelligent advice in this thread.
'What people with years of experience say is trash, ignore it all, try the demo versions for 30 days and you'll have a better idea'? That's "by far the most valuable and intelligent advice in this thread"? How about "listen to what people say, but remember it's only their opinion. Try the demo packages before you buy."

Pop quiz, who can tell me which is the 'valuable, intelligent' response?

1. "FPrime is as good as ABnranger says, but other packages have good previewing options, like IPR..."

2. "Shut up"


but of course you arent here to help anyone, seems that you are more eager to engage in those pissing matches you claim to deplore.
I'll do what I can to stop people from posting @$$hole comments. I like most of the people here, so when they take the time to express their opinion, and you jump on here and spout "that's trash" without even saying why, you bet I'm going to say something.

birdas
07-07-2007, 09:39 PM
fprime3 and hv-only lw on this planet has these tools(and HDinstance)...

AbnRanger
07-07-2007, 09:44 PM
please do not spew such misleading trash again.How so? It was a general statement, and in general terms YOU CAN do 90% in LW what you can do in Maya (model, animate, render, particles, etc.). And, as I stated, if he needs tools that Maya possesses, you can close the gap with plugins...like Messiah for animation, Sasquatch or Fiber Factory for Hair/Fur, Dynamite for Volumetric Effects/ Liquids. Another example would be how 3ds Max has numerous tools for Arch-Viz work built in. LWCAD fills that gap for LW...quite nicely.

I still use 3ds Max predominately, which compares favorably with Maya Unlimited, and the same statement applies in a comparison between LW and Max as well. Character Studio, Reactor Dynamics engine, and Particle Flow, etc., indeed are more robust than LW's implementations, but that still doesn't make my statement "trash." It's no more so than your choice of words. Just because your view of LW is a bitter one, and mine isn't, doesn't place you in a position to dictate what I can and cannot say.

LW, out of the box, may not be as elegant or quick in certain areas as others...understood...but as is the case with those other applications, it too, has its strengths. One of which is it's renderer. The fact that it's native and competes very well with third party renderers used in other applications, yet without the worry of incompatiblities with various plugins, is a HUGE benefit!
I'm not flaming against Maya. Just that, IMHO, LW gives you alot of those capabilities for a fraction of the cost. It's kinda' like CPU's. Some people are willing to spend twice as much for 5% more speed. Some aren't so willing. And you reply..."Don't spew that trash on here."
Yes Boss, whatever YOU say!:neener:

Stooch
07-07-2007, 10:09 PM
Why was this thread not closed as soon as it was posted?

because newtek is one of the few companies that has the balls to sit back and let their users sort it out. if anything i have more respect for them because of it.

abn. clearly you havent used maya if you insist that lightwave can do 90% of it. and save me the plugins. with plugins maya can do that much more. even if you really use maya, you clearly arent very experienced in it, because you wouldnt be making claims like this otherwise.

Stooch
07-07-2007, 10:12 PM
fprime3 and hv-only lw on this planet has these tools(and HDinstance)...

modo is more accurate then fprime in terms of final render. i prefer modos ipr. HDinstance is an instancing hack. modo, xsi, maya and max have them. natively.

also, HV is NOT the only volumetric solution on the market. "hypervoxels" is a marketing term for volumetrics. many 3d packages have them, they were special 5 years ago (even thats debatable)

for someone that uses hypervoxels full time in production right now, i can vouch that they are far from perfect.

Stooch
07-07-2007, 10:16 PM
blah blah blah

toby, looks like i was right that you are here for a pissing contest. i wont indulge you in it. as far as "a$$hole" comments, the pot is calling the kettle black.

once again, you posted with 0 helpful insight under the guise of righteousness.

and btw, many timse, in person you have admitted to me that you don't know maya. so how can you even have an opinion about it and expect others to listen to it?

t4d
07-07-2007, 10:26 PM
How so? It was a general statement, and in general terms YOU CAN do 90% in LW what you can do in Maya (model, animate, render, particles, etc.). And, as I stated, if he needs tools that Maya possesses,

I would disagree with the 90% statement ( maybe 60% and falling with every Maya, Max and XSI update.. )

Anything character related is out ( well not totally out, but alot easier cheaper and more powerful to do in other tools )

LW Cloth and Particles are pretty limited compaired to the Max's, Maya's and XSI's..

any large productions are Limited due to LW not having any references etc,. to deal with Groups of artists working together. ( even Single artists can uses these systems to great advanage.. )

render is good but with no real pass system things get messy.

modeling tools and workflow are messy SO other tools = cheaper and easier workflow.

all the advanages are third party related ( HD Instance, Fprime, Sas, FF etc etc ) and when added up it's much cheaper to just buy Maya or XSI and not have to deal with plugins not working with each other. and have a much more connected and open 3D system that instead of giving you Limited option ( as we do in LW ) you have the too many workflow options ( which really is not that much of a negative ).....

Yet with all this you have Jay trying to out do Worley in the render deptment ?? and not attack the REAL reason LW is at the bottom of the 3D ladder ?..
( sorry current Features wise truespace is beating LW yet I see LW price is going up ?? )

But LW'ers Prefer to wait ?
attack anyone pointing out the issues,
and well keep waiting .....

are you waiting for Jay to completely Beat Worley at rendering or something ?

before you would ask for Animation and modeling improvement ?

SplineGod
07-07-2007, 10:35 PM
the old troll word to end a rant, What class :thumbsup:

I started in LW, I still work for LW studio's and freelance artists and LW is one of my tools I uses, ( the only big one i don't own is Max )
it's 2007 You use the right tool for the job, 3D is not a $100 000 a program industry any more and it's easy to shop around.

Peter you have stated in other forums that you intentionally llike to show up to cause problems....your words. Dont get defensive if people call you out on what IS obvious trolling. Again, you like to always try and position yourself as someone 'in the know'. Its a hard to take you seriously living in the middle of the outback smoking pot (again, your words).
I think people have tolerated your poor behavior for way too long. You have more and more people coming out and telling you. Why continue? Youre not convincing anyone and youre certainly not winning any brownie points. :confused:

sammael
07-07-2007, 10:46 PM
well there are still guys posting ( in this thread ) " they working on it" or " you wait and see, I hear it's coming very soon "
just long as i have voiced my opinion of what need to be improved ??

yet Some seem to prefer to listen to promise's year after year then ask for improvement ?

Hey Each to there own :thumbsup:
enjoy your art :thumbsup:

For the record I do agree with you 100% in some of what you say although I have no XSI or Maya experience so I can't relate those apps & I too am sick of users defending LW's broken toolset with shody time consuming workarounds but I think you have clearly gotten to that point where it's just best to move on, I mean you dont seem to even like any part of what LW has to offer.
It's completely obvious NT does not listen, they are set on digging their own grave but for now this is what I paid for and spent the last few years learning so im stuck with it but I might add that despite the lack of solid progress for the past decade things finally seem to be looking up.
I think 90% of users here feel the same way as you to an extent but LW has a certain 'charm' that keeps us all hanging on. (or maybe its a 'curse')

Mr Rid
07-07-2007, 11:08 PM
YOU CAN do 90% in LW what you can do in Maya (model, animate, render, particles, etc.).

Yet the difference between Maya and LW in the versatility of each of these features you list is much greater than 10%. A very experienced LW artist develops a stash of workarounds and hacks to force things to happen in spite of the software. Ive seen (and pulled off myself) a number of complex tasks in LW that even LW users didnt realize was possible, but you still hit a tangible ceiling in LW that is lower than in other apps. 'Guru' LW miracle workers are hard to find. And it doesnt change the fact that those challenges are usually easier to do in other apps that are geared for it.

There are a few neat particulars (FPrime did not come from Newtek) about LW, but Newtek development is just obviously way behind. What bar are they aiming for exactly? So why isnt LW the premiere 3D app?


Just that, IMHO, LW gives you alot of those capabilities for a fraction of the cost.

Someone always points at cost difference. But of course a Camaro and a Viper dont cost the same. Maya Complete costs more because it is worth more.

Mr Rid
07-07-2007, 11:15 PM
Am wondering how many posters here actually make a living in LW. But as a professional, this is the reality-

December '06, 3D app specific job postings on VFXpro:

Maya- 22
XSI- 7
Max- 6
LW- 4
Cinema 4D- 4
Poser-1
Unspecified- 5

In the last 30 days:

Maya- 41
Max- 11
XSI- 4
Houdini- 4
Cinema 4D- 2
LW- 1
Unspecified- 10

Stooch
07-07-2007, 11:20 PM
lol ok i think you guys are shifting gears from lw vs maya to lw sucks mode. I want to make it clear that maya is superior to lw, and saying that LW can do 90% is ridiculous. but LW is not hopeless, there are places where you can still make effective use of it.

Chris S. (Fez)
07-07-2007, 11:27 PM
LW is not hopeless, there are places where you can still make effective use of it.

Agreed!

I assume several of you believe you are aiding the 3D community at large by championing the competition at every opportunity? Perhaps, but you are certainly not helping this Lightwave community. As someone else mentioned above, I suggest you all move on and save your scorn and/or praise for a more appropriate venue.

Belittling Lightwavers, however subtly, because they do not use your preferred application is inappropriate and unprofessional. It is also presumptuous to assume that those of us who still find Lightwave useful in production are not aware of the capabilities of competing programs.

MAX is my company's main application but Lightwave, with Fprime and G2, is still a very productive part of my personal pipeline.

toby
07-07-2007, 11:30 PM
toby, looks like i was right that you are here for a pissing contest. i wont indulge you in it. as far as "a$$hole" comments, the pot is calling the kettle black.

once again, you posted with 0 helpful insight under the guise of righteousness.
And again you don't respond to anything I say, and just re-iterate what you said. I guess I know what that means.


and btw, many timse, in person you have admitted to me that you don't know maya. so how can you even have an opinion about it and expect others to listen to it?
Because I've studied it intensely over the last 2 months and have been working in it for 3 weeks solid. I had to learn it for the gig I'm on now. Half the people I've worked with over the 4 years know both, and they all have a similar opinion. And we're talking about which one is more "fun", it's completely subjective.

AbnRanger
07-07-2007, 11:37 PM
abn. clearly you havent used maya if you insist that lightwave can do 90% of it. and save me the plugins. with plugins maya can do that much more. even if you really use maya, you clearly arent very experienced in it, because you wouldnt be making claims like this otherwise.Maybe you read too much into what I said. The end result...the final output in Maya, 90% of the time CAN be done in LW. The road to getting there is sometimes bumpier in LW...sure. No arguement there. Again, I wasn't saying that each tool is 90% as elegant or robust as you find in Maya Unlimited...just referring to the end result.
I think I can say this with some confidence because I DO know Max pretty well, and I'd put it up against Maya in a number of categories...any day of the week.

t4d
07-07-2007, 11:54 PM
Peter you have stated in other forums that you intentionally llike to show up to cause problems....your words. Dont get defensive if people call you out on what IS obvious trolling. Again, you like to always try and position yourself as someone 'in the know'. Its a hard to take you seriously living in the middle of the outback smoking pot (again, your words).

this is a out right lie and standard for a guy trying to make a living from selling LW training ?? attack the person but aviod all the points they make ....

I live 5 mins from the center of Brisbane, 3rd largest city in Australia over a million or so people.

When have i said "living in the middle of the outback smoking pot" ??
I think that was another attack you made on me ???

but who cares you throw sh1t trying to change the subject,
how does someone reply to this BS ??

well YEAH,.. I'm honest guy ,
I did, I was a musician and made a living from playing guitar,
( it's all info I have in my profile or my website )
But I Don't now ( so did Your presidents including the current one LOL =)

hey I'm 34 years old have 3 kids and have not touched the stuff in many MANY years ,. I don't smoke at all now, I have asthma so it's not really an option. BUT I LOVE a cold Beer or RUM !! :beerchug: :D

And this is the first time i have posted this info :thumbsup:


I think most of us have done or doing ( for the young guys ;) the normal teenage things,
( make mistakes and learn from them i say =)
but I really don't care now ,..


but I do find it sad that you want to Attack at that level here ?
with such personal BS attacks ? ( and pretty point less attack too for any users out there who lives in Amsterdam LOL )

but happy to admit I was a human and Had some fun in my Teenage years :thumbsup:

I could throw "flashing" fact's back with links,... but what's the point ?
I think most of the older LW'ers already know about that,.
don't they Larry ?. Or should i fill them in ??

your trying to hit low just to Talk up LW so you can then Sell more training. ,.

. just sad ..:thumbsdow

and i have no idea why you feel superior ?
because you live in "hollywood" ...why ??
sorry dude most of the good CG's done oversea's now and you haven't worked for any studio's or projects worth talking about since LW 5.6...

hazmat777
07-07-2007, 11:58 PM
I should be done putting together a nice 5 node 2 seat LW x64 set-up by the end of this year (can't wait!), but am also applying to VFS next year. Anybody know what they teach with there? Not a lot of specific info on their site. Thanks :newtek: !

toby
07-08-2007, 12:00 AM
...the final output in Maya, 90% of the time CAN be done in LW. The road to getting there is sometimes bumpier in LW...sure.
I have to agree there, with what I've seen so far. I'd add that in most cases where Maya can do much more than LW, it can do it because it's programmable. But then you have to be a programmer to do it. As a matter of fact, I've met a few guys that program renderman on feature films - they look down on Maya the same way some Maya people look down on LW...

AbnRanger
07-08-2007, 12:05 AM
Sorry for the additional post, but I wanted to add that my comparison to Max is just as applicable regarding Maya.

Sure LW needs some drastic improvements in key areas...but you, Stooch, and T4D are doggin' LW like it wasn't capable of holding Maya's jockstrap, as it were.

There a number of things I like better about Max than LW, but I try to give Newtek some credit.
When people new to LW, or 3D in general, ask about comparisons, "I call it like I see it," to borrow Stooch's line.
In LW's pricerange, you...:boogiedowCAN'T TOUCH THIS:boogiedow

hazmat777
07-08-2007, 12:10 AM
Maybe somebody can turn this thing around, and talk about how Maya and LW can benefit each other "for fun".:D

Cageman
07-08-2007, 12:16 AM
heh, putting on flame suit because i know truth hurts.

Hehe.. :)

Well, the "truth" in this case is more about prophiciency. What are each of us good at in a particular package? The way someone likes to work may be a nightmare for me. I have tried Wacoms, only to discover that most of the things I do can be done much faster using a mouse. I would never, ever say that Wacoms are bad because of that.

MR for Maya (not the stand-alone version) is a real pain to use. It's fine and dandy for many things, but when it comes to pushing out polygons all sorts of problems appear and you end up spending alot of time troubleshooting than actually render. In the end, whatever features a package has, if you have to have dedicated people that only has one purpose; make things render, than what good is such a package for small teams or single artists? I've heard that MR for XSI is so much better.

In a package like Maya, there are many aspects of it that requiers alot of technical knowledge or programming skills (MEL, Expressions) to fully utilize the capabilities, and that is something that takes alot of time to learn and master. Time is money and it is important to spend the time on the right things....

Cageman
07-08-2007, 12:39 AM
Thus the 'cars and spaceships' part.

Didn't Eden rig and animate that lizard-thing in Surface using LW? I only saw it briefly, but the animation looked really good, esp concidering it was done for television....

Chris S. (Fez)
07-08-2007, 01:06 AM
When have i said "living in the middle of the outback smoking pot" ??


Man, assuming I had my dog, my computers, a replenishable supply of cold beer, and my lady for company, I would love to be "living in the middle of the outback smoking pot."

Alas, I live in a city and only smoke pot whenever possible :).

AbnRanger
07-08-2007, 01:15 AM
Someone always points at cost difference.For good reason, then...don't you think?

But of course a Camaro and a Viper dont cost the same. Maya Complete costs more because it is worth more. But if all you want is enough road muscle to smoke a Mustang every now and then...you don't have to spend $60K, do you? :D
Plus, with the new diggs the Camaro is getting...I may well put the extra $30K+ back in my pocket and take the Chevy.

AbnRanger
07-08-2007, 01:22 AM
Alas, I live in a city and only smoke pot whenever possible :).So, is your avatar a snapshot of you during one of those episodes? :D

Cageman
07-08-2007, 01:25 AM
well what are you doing if you don't need to Rig, animate or have dynmics in your work ? ( and even if the render is good what about render passes ?? does newtek know about this method of workflow ?? )

I think they do; I've been using them alot. I seldom render any beauty-passes for final use, only for reference. Here is my setup:

4 or 5 scenefiles for rendering, depening on requirements, this setup is also aimed to work with renderfarms:

1. Diffuse, RGB (Color) and Depth, no shadows, no raytracing. Renders really fast
2. Spec, Reflection, Shadow (raytrace on, shadows on) also outputs Beautypass for reference in comp.
3. Ambient Occlusion
4. MotionVectors (really fast rendering)
(5). Depth (if you want more precise controll) really fast rendering.

Make sure to set all these scenes to unpremutliply alpha (or in earlier versions of LW; Fader Alpha Mode ON)

x amount of alpha mask passes to give individual control of elements in the scene. These renders in 1-2 sec/frame (if not faster)... no big deal. I tend to make those after I have made the precomp to see what I want to controll individually. I use Fusion.

The good: 3 of 5 of these scenes renders really, really fast and they are easy to setup and use (not counting maskpasses)

The Bad: Ambient Occlusion requires a special version of the object that has this surface (remeber, it should work on a farm). Also, depending on maskpasses, you can end up having alot of scenefiles. There will be a kind of nightmare if there are changes in the lighting or animation, because you need to update all these scenefiles manually.

Conclusion: The biggest bottleneck isn't the renderbuffers, or the setup process, but the lack of a reference system that, if you change in one scene, all other scenes will follow suit. I have come to the conclusion that animation referencing is the most vital drawback in LW. The funny thing is that LW already has the tools to make animation referencing possible (motionfiles). To be able to tell an item to always load a specific motionfile when the scene is opened could save HUGE time. Maya2LW2 facilitates this kind of workflow, but it only works with animation (translate, rotate, scale). But you can use it on all items in LW.

Currently, Maya v7.01 (which we use right now) doesn't work well with Renderlayers when objects are referenced. Beacuse of the huge workflow improvement references offer, Renderlayers were scraped and a multitude of renderscenes were created by hand instead.

Which software is "best"? To be honest... the are all best! :)

Cageman
07-08-2007, 01:35 AM
LW most often finds its way into fast turn around (read 'lower budget') FX projects (300 was a crunch job), for hard surface objects and environment. On 300, Ive seen only that LW was used in one scene for arrows and spears, set extensions, and one relatively simple smoke effect that Jeremy Hunt stated was the old morph thru bones trick that offers more control than dynamics. Its not as if these things couldnt be easily done in any 3D app.

Hmm...I think he stated that he was surprised how well the dynamics worked in LW for that particular shot. Take a look at the video feature about 300 at the LW-site.

Also, in the same video-feature, you will see the guys from Pixel Magic using LW to do crowds using HD Instance and the big arrowswarm (look at the screen behind the guy being interviewed).




Meanwhile, the heavy chores like the ships in storm waves disentegrated on the shore were done with Scanline proprietary, the wolf with snowflakes landing in its fur in XSI, Maya for digital soldiers, flying limbs and the big arrow swarm, Maya, Flame and RealFlow for gore FX and some fire, Syflex for cloth, Massive for crowds, Maya for the Elephants. 2D tools played the biggest role.

Hmm...there was an artist from Hybride who joined a thread here at NT-forums and he did alot of snowshots in LW. He also did the shot where the giant got the head cut off; he used LightWave clothfx for the slice, and LightWave HBD for the shot when the head lands on the ground.

mav3rick
07-08-2007, 01:40 AM
so boring topic..... is there any playground for adults?

Cageman
07-08-2007, 02:00 AM
Here is the thread I was talking about in my last post:
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65344&page=5

Look for the post by gaetan

"Hi Guys, I did a couple of shots for this movie and I use only Lightwave.
I did like 50 shots in this film, like all of snow with the Wolf..."

Chris S. (Fez)
07-08-2007, 02:01 AM
So, is your avatar a snapshot of you during one of those episodes? :D

:thumbsup: Could be, but it is impossible to tell since my reaction to bong hits and boobies is exactly the same...

Cageman
07-08-2007, 02:17 AM
I don't know if Rainmaker has made any official posts, but they are looking for a well rounded LW-artist for work on features. (www.rainmaker.com) Digital Domain are always looking for good LW-artists, make sure you let them know who you are... :)

Makes me wonder... how in hell can a company like Digital Domain (who recently did work on Transformers) look for LW-artists? I mean... isn't LW just a piece of crap that no-one wants to use these days? ;)

jin choung
07-08-2007, 02:22 AM
speaking of dd,

what in the world happened to their supposed role in transformers?!

michael bay basically PURCHASED dd (?!?!?!) to do the fx work in transformers and the lead and the bulk of the work goes to ILM?

seriously, what happened?

jin

Cageman
07-08-2007, 02:28 AM
I think DD didn't have enough people to finish it in time. I know of a guy from Sweden who works at DD and as far as I understood, he was working with rigging Transfomers. But, yeah... it's kind of interresting.... we have to wait and see what DD puts up on their website regarding Transformers.

lino.grandi
07-08-2007, 02:31 AM
that chart is horribly inaccurate too. lw does not have usable hair, sbodies, cloth, fluid and alot of the stuff that the chart claims lw has is in a sorry, unusable state.

Only if you don't know HOW to use it.

toby
07-08-2007, 02:49 AM
speaking of dd,

what in the world happened to their supposed role in transformers?!

michael bay basically PURCHASED dd (?!?!?!) to do the fx work in transformers and the lead and the bulk of the work goes to ILM?

seriously, what happened?

jin
The work that ILM did had already been booked when Bay and his partners bought dd. I haven't seen any of it yet, but I hear that dd did non-hero shots.

tischbein3
07-08-2007, 04:14 AM
yet it still seems rendering is still the main focus of development ?


Do they ?

Stooch
07-08-2007, 04:15 AM
And again you don't respond to anything I say, and just re-iterate what you said. I guess I know what that means.

Because I've studied it intensely over the last 2 months and have been working in it for 3 weeks solid. I had to learn it for the gig I'm on now. Half the people I've worked with over the 4 years know both, and they all have a similar opinion. And we're talking about which one is more "fun", it's completely subjective.
THATS nice. i have been using maya "intensely" for the last 6 years. so it kinda trumps your 2 months of experience and then some... you have alot to learn. to say the least. i think once you understand it more, you will appreciate what i have to say. its not hating on lw.

Stooch
07-08-2007, 04:17 AM
Only if you don't know HOW to use it.

...
seriously. unless you have more than 6 years of hardcore maya experience, you shouldnt be talking to me about maya unless you want to make a fool out of yourself....

as far as LW i have been using it for the last 12 years...

Stooch
07-08-2007, 04:35 AM
Sorry for the additional post, but I wanted to add that my comparison to Max is just as applicable regarding Maya.

Sure LW needs some drastic improvements in key areas...but you, Stooch, and T4D are doggin' LW like it wasn't capable of holding Maya's jockstrap, as it were.

There a number of things I like better about Max than LW, but I try to give Newtek some credit.
When people new to LW, or 3D in general, ask about comparisons, "I call it like I see it," to borrow Stooch's line.
In LW's pricerange, you...:boogiedowCAN'T TOUCH THIS:boogiedow
lw has no hope of ever touching maya as far as features are concerned.. ill stand by that statement. sure there are some things that lw can do, but maya can do far more. you would have to be very fanboish to think otherwise. wake up and smell the maya.

jin choung
07-08-2007, 04:35 AM
The work that ILM did had already been booked when Bay and his partners bought dd. I haven't seen any of it yet, but I hear that dd did non-hero shots.

if that's true, it's a pretty odd move to have purchased dd.... at the time, the purchase was pretty heavily tied to transformers and if dd was just gonna be another vendor, why buy?

anyhoo, it just strikes me as curious how things turned out.

jin

Stooch
07-08-2007, 04:46 AM
Hehe.. :)

Well, the "truth" in this case is more about prophiciency. What are each of us good at in a particular package? The way someone likes to work may be a nightmare for me. I have tried Wacoms, only to discover that most of the things I do can be done much faster using a mouse. I would never, ever say that Wacoms are bad because of that.

MR for Maya (not the stand-alone version) is a real pain to use. It's fine and dandy for many things, but when it comes to pushing out polygons all sorts of problems appear and you end up spending alot of time troubleshooting than actually render. In the end, whatever features a package has, if you have to have dedicated people that only has one purpose; make things render, than what good is such a package for small teams or single artists? I've heard that MR for XSI is so much better.

In a package like Maya, there are many aspects of it that requiers alot of technical knowledge or programming skills (MEL, Expressions) to fully utilize the capabilities, and that is something that takes alot of time to learn and master. Time is money and it is important to spend the time on the right things....

lol. seriously man. i have been using LW as long as the best veteran on these forums. im one of the OG users as far as LW is concerned. im sure there are a few Amiga guys that trump me in terms of use but i also have the bonus of experiencing Maya pretty much from the start of its existence, so i have a very unique understanding of both packages. so when i speak about both programs, you can be rest assured that you aren't talking to some guy that read a brochure about the software and just talking out of his ***. So its very amusing to hear alot of noobs that talk **** about maya, it is so obvious how little people know about the program when they attempt to talk **** about it. i know both programs inside out, and maya IMO is head and shoulders above anything LW has done in the last decade. yes LW can do many many things and yes it is more cost effective for certain applications. but if you claim that LW can do 90% of what Maya can, then you are smoking something awfully good. because my experience tells me otherwise. believe me when i say that i know all the tricks in the book as far as workarounds are concerned. Maya still owns lw hands down.

t4d
07-08-2007, 04:59 AM
Do they ?
well it seems here from the users side,.. it is just render focused .

I may rant and rave here But all i wanted for the last 3 -4 years is to have a load from scene that kept the lock items setting and selection sets on imported rigs. Hasn't happened....? ( LW 9 even got a Load from scene panel yet no real advanages ? )

I like XSI and Messiah Both have alot of charm
XSI has a animate anything attuide ( alittle heavy learning curve )
while Messiah has a Character focused attuide. ( very easy learning curve )

I would like to see What attuide LW will have once it has a real 3D animation system in place.

( tho also keeping an eye on what Modo too, but that won't come untill 401..)

JensD
07-08-2007, 05:30 AM
On a german LW-Forum one of the LightWave developers states that the focus right now is on two LW relics: Meshedit-Sytem and Animation-System.

Furthermore (according to this developer) are these the two components which limit the possible OGL-Speed in Modeler and Layout strongly.


Jens

Cageman
07-08-2007, 06:01 AM
yes LW can do many many things and yes it is more cost effective for certain applications. but if you claim that LW can do 90% of what Maya can, then you are smoking something awfully good. because my experience tells me otherwise. believe me when i say that i know all the tricks in the book as far as workarounds are concerned. Maya still owns lw hands down.

Never said that! Where did I say that? Honestly? I was talking about MR for Maya (not the stand alone version), which, for us, has been a neelde in the eye, and extremely slow working towards. You really have to sit down and spend a couple of days to tweak things in order to render them. I frankly think that LWs 9.2 renderer is on par with MR minus all the fuzz you have to do in order to get it to render. I also talked about small teams and single people teams.

Maybe you should stop smoking and take some time learning to quote people correctly?

(we are currently working in Maya v7.01 and to be honest, without the magic of the two MEL-kings we have in our team, we would have had alot more technical problems to solve).

lino.grandi
07-08-2007, 06:11 AM
...
seriously. unless you have more than 6 years of hardcore maya experience, you shouldnt be talking to me about maya unless you want to make a fool out of yourself....

as far as LW i have been using it for the last 12 years...

I'm talking about Lightwave (which I started to use on the Amiga), not Maya (a software I've used in production in the last two years, however, so even I know both of them).

My suspect is that you aren't using Lightwave for a long time since version 7 or 8, isn't it? (well, I could be wrong, of course)

Maya is a very deep and powerful software, and I love and hate it.

But saying Lightwave has not usable soft/cloth dynamics...well, I think is something that could make a fool of yourself.

alifx
07-08-2007, 06:13 AM
it's nice that LW still they compare it to maya and xsi...

that means LW is still a competitor.

it's really sad to see those lacks that lightwave has, but they are working on them now...

I really believe that NT when promises a thing they do it.

they did their first promise, improving the rendering and surfacing (Nodes) staff , and they did it, though it sill lacks of render passes and Instances., but look at the new nodes,new radiosity, cameras, I really love them.
these are not liitle or tiny things, to not care about them, they are great improvments on that side of rendering features.


ah...
still there is a hope, to see LW is growing again.

StereoMike
07-08-2007, 08:59 AM
Haha

Pissing contest! Pissing contest!

What a fine thread this became - nah it was obvious right from the beginning it had to go that way.

If I had to judge, I'd say T4d can piss the furthest. But look what a mess you did, bad boy!

mike

Sekhar
07-08-2007, 09:58 AM
yes LW can do many many things and yes it is more cost effective for certain applications. but if you claim that LW can do 90% of what Maya can, then you are smoking something awfully good. because my experience tells me otherwise. believe me when i say that i know all the tricks in the book as far as workarounds are concerned. Maya still owns lw hands down.
Stooch, since you have real experience with Maya/LW, could you may be enumerate the top advantages of Maya over LW (and hopefully vice versa)? I mean stuff that majority of modelers/animators would miss by going with LW rather than Maya. Many have mentioned pros/cons of each software on this thread, but wanted to see all the important differences identified/collected in one place. Not being sarcastic/facetious/etc., really want to know. Would be a great reference for future too.

jasonwestmas
07-08-2007, 10:09 AM
The best thing about maya to me is that you can make a no-nonsense customized character rig extremely fast. The paint weights tool is far better than lw's solution since you can do all your weight mapping in the same environments as your joints/bones. (Xsi has an even faster set up tools for setting up weight maps)

Please note that you don't always need weight maps for the entire character which lightwave will handle just fine. In more complicated situations though, lightwave is lacking big time especially if you need a game character that needs the entire character to have 80 or so weight maps.

juice
07-08-2007, 10:11 AM
... since everybody knows Lightwave here, I list some strong points from Maya
... Render-Layer-System you can set only 1 pass in Lightwave in Maya multiple
... Render-Engine-Licenses Lightwave 999 is better than Maya 8
... Animation = Maya wins in every tool here I think
... modeling Maya have true Subdivision-Modeling you can refine and the mesh stays like it was before... in lightwave the mesh changes by every edge or polygon you add (in all Lightwave have great tools, BUT I miss the history)

jasonwestmas
07-08-2007, 10:20 AM
Something I really love about other packages that lightwave should definately employ is the ability to model your character and weightmap/ pose the character in the same environment at THE SAME TIME. . . THAT is absolutely precious, especially for shoulders and other joints.

Cageman
07-08-2007, 10:25 AM
Please note that you don't always need weight maps for the entire character which lightwave will handle just fine. In more complicated situations though, lightwave is lacking big time especially if you need a game character that needs the entire character to have 80 or so weight maps.

Hmm... things lacking in Vertex Paint: Hold Weights and Smoothing... other than that, it is perfect for painting characters, especially game charactares with 80 weights + :) (I've painted quite afew...let me assure you about that). In LightWave you have the option to paint through the object or only the frontmost vertecies, which is not avaliable in Maya to my knowledge. In that regard, you can be more precise with where you put your weights.

Cageman
07-08-2007, 10:28 AM
Something I really love about other packages that lightwave should definately employ is the ability to model your character and weightmap/ pose the character in the same environment at THE SAME TIME. . . THAT is absolutely precious, especially for shoulders and other joints.

Yep...

Make place for Vertex Paint above UV Texture in viewport options... would be really neat... and also... tear off panels for everything!

Dodgy
07-08-2007, 10:34 AM
Here's a quick XSI 6.01 Foundation Trial experience that I just had, since I thought I'd give it another go. I brought a guy I'd built in LW into XSI as an obj. He's 8600 polys. Increased the Opengl sub-d level to 4. Looks like how modeler handles Sub-ds, with phantom points, which is good. This is Catmull-clark. When I move the View around it updates every few frames. So I do the same in LW (using catmull clark subd, the slowest method). About the same speed. I figure the XSI sub-d method would be faster, since it's native to XSI, like the sub-d method is in LW. So I change the method to XSI-Doo-Sabin. XSI runs out of memory and crashes. And it does this the second time I try the exact same thing. I have 2gig of memory. XSI is supposed to have this gigapoly core. Why does this happen? This is 5 minutes into playing with it.

If I leave it as CC sub-ds, it's a quite a bit slower than Modeler when I manipulate the same number of points also in CC mode. Needless to say, switching to LW-subds makes this a lot faster.

Really, I started trying to learn XSI because my friends say it's so amazing, and that it feels a lot like LW, but this sort of thing does make me wonder. That's one of it's great claims, a really fast sub-d modeler, but something as simple as this really doesn't bear that out.

The point is, I know LW doesn't have a lot of the features XSI claims to have, but every time I look at XSI I find the features aren't as great as everyone makes out. Just like I find with every 3d package.

Stooch
07-08-2007, 11:00 AM
I'm talking about Lightwave (which I started to use on the Amiga), not Maya (a software I've used in production in the last two years, however, so even I know both of them).

My suspect is that you aren't using Lightwave for a long time since version 7 or 8, isn't it? (well, I could be wrong, of course)

Maya is a very deep and powerful software, and I love and hate it.

But saying Lightwave has not usable soft/cloth dynamics...well, I think is something that could make a fool of yourself.

umm. ??? 12 years man. do the math. version 4 is when i started.

i will repeat. lw does not have useable cloth. (by useable cloth i mean making cloth animation that doesnt look like ****)

archijam
07-08-2007, 11:07 AM
Everyone who has posted here would not complain if LW actually answered the challenge, and answered these demands upon it, that seems obvious.

What is strange is the idea that all criticism somehow ends up as 'constructive criticism' .. this is misguided.

Many LWers seem to expect Newtek to know what they want (need) in LW, like some kind of santa claus figure. Worse, they scream 'I want a bike!', and then are disappointed when it is not the model they wanted, or even as good as that one the kid down the road, MAtty YArdapple, received last christmas (or they get a nicely rendering skateboard instead).

Playing catch-up with other apps is never going to ultimately please LW users, only innovation will. How about some of the hardcore XSI/Maya users actually make detailed suggestions/potential screen shots of tools or actions that would far outshine specific areas of the above competitors?

Fprime is a pretty good example of such innovation (be it a plugin) that came from the 'industry' (Worley's own needs as far as I know), not the developers in Newtek's basement ..

Empower these developers .. make a detailed submission in the feature requests!

j.

lino.grandi
07-08-2007, 11:13 AM
umm. ??? 12 years man. do the math. version 4 is when i started.

Ok, ok...that's not the point. Strange you didn't learn how to do fine cloth in LW in all this time! ;D (jocking).



i will repeat. lw does not have useable cloth. (by useable cloth i mean making cloth animation that doesnt look like ****)

That's just your opinion. Of course...Maya's NCloth is really incredible stuff. But I made some great clothing simulation using ClothFX. Which looked fine.

theo
07-08-2007, 11:36 AM
I think LW's ClothFX are perfectly worth arguing for, but not in the context of comparisons with higher-end software.

If I pay 7k for Maya, it BETTER produce garment dynamics that are far more advanced than LW's current implementation.

It doesn't take an overly intelligent person to realize that LW has its areas of deficiency. It IS median-priced as a result. The marketing people at Newtek KNOW this perfectly well which is why the program is priced rather perfectly, in my view, for its feature set.

Frankly, it's great piece of software and its price is just perfect for a lot people who will NEVER need some of the advanced capabilities of a Maya.

Stooch
07-08-2007, 12:05 PM
Stooch, since you have real experience with Maya/LW, could you may be enumerate the top advantages of Maya over LW (and hopefully vice versa)? I mean stuff that majority of modelers/animators would miss by going with LW rather than Maya. Many have mentioned pros/cons of each software on this thread, but wanted to see all the important differences identified/collected in one place. Not being sarcastic/facetious/etc., really want to know. Would be a great reference for future too.

ok, sure thing.

-first and foremost, maya has a very well developed a deep scripting language. Its scripting language is at the core of the app to the point of pretty much everything in the program is being driven by it. when you execute any command you can see it being fired off in the command editor and are free to design your own tools without any limitations. to me this is probably one of the most defining features that has allowed maya to get where it is today.

-maya is not a terribly intuitive modeler, however with the accessible scripting language there is a ridiculous amount of helper tools that you can get to speed up your workflow. Most people think mayas modeling sucks but IMO it takes a different way of thinking. by combining subdivision, nurbs and polygon workflow, the modeler is free to choose the best tool for the job. I like to use nurbs as much as i can because they take care of UVs for me. but i am a subd modeler at heart, thanks to LW.

-the hair, particle and dynamics in maya are very powerful and have alot of flexibility. (and look good) compared to maya LWs dynamics are very rudimentary and inaccurate. there are many times where collisions simply fail, especially when dealing with parented emitters. maya does not have such problems.

-animation is where maya shines, its rigging tools arent anything revolutionary but solid and perform as they should. with the addition of easy to use mel scripting you are free to make a rig as badass as you want to or as simple as you can.

-VERY fast interaction speed. you can have a very complex scene with lots of characters and geometry and still be able to use the program effectively. a great bonus is the fact that the layering system (ala modeler) is available in the animation workflow, so that you can isolate and control your scene in order to have fast interaction regardless of scene complexity.

-file referencing allows you to collaborate with a large team by inserting dynamic links to scene assets, so that you are always working on the most current scene non destructively. LW has alot to learn about collaborative workflow in general.

-the hotbox is a really nice popup navigation/interaction scheme where you can have acces to ALL of the program features under a customizeable UI, allowing you to clear your ui to the bare minimum while maintaining access to the tools you might want but dont want to waste UI space on. so im always finding myself chuckling at people taht complain about mayas "cluttered" ui. it shows their ignorance immediately.

-integrated painting tools allow you to paint not only weight maps but attributes for things like hair or volumetrics and even geometry (rough sculpting). this is a really nice time saver.

-the OGL drawing modes are fast and has lots of per object options in order to show your models anyway your heart desires. the xray mode is particularly nice to visualize your bones without the distraction of wireframes overlapping them. infact alot of the settings in maya are per object.

-light linking is far superior in maya, it can be done per object, or surface. you can link lights in an object or light centric fashion, saving you lots of time over LWs approach. (if you use LW light linking you should be aware that you can invert selections, this can be extremely handy when dealing with lots of objects).

-there are many things that get broken or lost when you load items from scene in LW. in maya your settings rarely get lost and in general scene management is robust and side steps the load from scene problems (i encounter alot of issues with that often used functionality in LW during production)

-in general Maya can handle much more per scene before crapping out, reducing the compositing that is required to finish a project.

-compositing in maya is brilliant. the layer system that i mentioned before allows not only an intuitive way to control visibility, it also allows you to assign render passes/layers with one click output presets. rendering/shading overrides and customized output location (fully custom overrides for pretty much any attribute per layer). this is a godsend for compositors. lw is HORRIBLE in comparison. especially when dealing with complex shots that require many elements. whats worse is if you make a change to suit the director, in LW you have to backtrack and do alot of manual work where in maya you just do the changes and hit render.

-maya has alot of tools out of the box. when i see people claiming that lw can do 90% of maya i get outraged at the misleading information. you simply cannot use that figure if you compare maya and lw feature to feature. maya costs 7k, so you can imagine how much more resources they have...

-soft body dynamics is so robust that in comparison to LW i consider its implementation as non existent.

-hair in maya is infinitelly more customizeable, better integrated and combined with its attribute painting tool, its far more flexible to get the look you want, quickly. (quickly is a relative term, there is far more options so it takes more finessing but results arent limited by a glass ceiling)

-you can isolate selections per item type. you can select by higherarchy, object mode or sub object. you can isolate by item type both in selection mode and in the object list display. allowing you to select or drill down to any item in seconds. there is none of that stupid clicking around to select the item you want (combined with layers this is head and shoulders above LW in a feature that is CRITICAL for any 3d application). this selection scheme is so full of features taht its hard to outline it all in a post. lets just say that selecting things in maya is infinitelly better than LW.

-snapping in maya is a bit basic, but it works and its hotkeys make it super intuitive to quickly align items. this is especially nice for rigging scenes. this feature could be refined more but its in a very useable state as is and i find myself using it quite often. (hold X to snap to grid, C to snap to curves and V to snap to vertices and item pivots such as nulls).

-rigging in maya goes beyond characters. you can fully appreciate its scene setup by checking out the clips at www.burningsafari.com please pay special attention to the actual reels on the site that shows off the work in progress. really brilliant use of dynamics and item connections in order to automate things you would normally be stuck with doing manually in LW.

-volumetrics in maya are very nice, you can see alot of the attributes in OGL and the render output is pretty close to the preview. the presets are wonderfully organized in the visor, infact the visor contains MANY presets for lots of things. like paint effects (fantastic for grass and foliage/plants) volumetrics (things like clouds and explosion and fire presets) and many other presets all in a centralised location.

-there is a tonne of settings per object. TONNES. you can control shading, rendering, drawing overrides, mental ray attributes, tesselation, etc all per object. you can edit these en masse via the attribute editor. editing lots of attributes in maya is infinitelly easier then LW. lw has half assed mass item attribute editing. it works sometimes but sometimes it doesnt. its full of gotchas and needs serious attention if you want LW to compete for complex projects.

-the item selection is so ridiculously awesome but then on top of that you have a nice little field where you can type in an item name using wildcards in order to select exactly the item you want or a group of items that have a similar name. mel scripting extends this even more. mel scripting is so pervasive and so powerful that all of the things i said up to this point and beyond are extended by its power. its really hard to explain how powerful it is without you actually seeing it for yourself. for me. lw can add all the features they want, but having LS script on par with mel will make LW a mainstream application FASTER then anything newtek can tack onto the core. they need to really sit down and get their priorities straight. this should be number one. and it will also solve alot of long standing issues with plugin integration (like fprime for one) and open doors for third party plugins taht are otherwise scared away by lws incomplete SDK.

-speaking of SDK, the third party support for maya blows lw out of the water. you think lw has lots of free plugins?? just visit www.highend3d.com and try not to drool on your crotch. hmm, i wonder how much of that is related to the awesome mel support and the SDK.

-dynamics in maya are so powerful that when combined with mel scripting you can actually make fully interactive games that run in mayas ogl. try that in LW. now take this one step further and apply to it a crowd scene. getting the picture yet?

-character sets. when you create a character, you will end up with a bunch of control objects all with keyable channels. you end up with a shitload of channels to key and keep track of. with character sets yuo select all of your control items and assign them into a character set. this allows you to assign individual channels to the set so that you can make keys only to the things you are animating and broken up into logical groups. ie i can make a character set that encompasses the entire control highearchy but i can also make a sub character set that has all the keys for something like an arm. not only this but you can also select channels in any item and lock them or even hide them entirely or both. so that your animators dont screw up your rig. this works seamlessly with file referencing too, again collaborative work in maya is infinitelly better than LW, NT really needs to focus on this aspect if they want to get into big studios.

-standalone render core in maya allows them to use as many render engines as they want and allow for third parties to integrate into maya. i wish NT would stop being so xenophobic and follow the trend and release their render engine for integration with other software packages. they have to stop being so stubborn and capture a big source of revenue here. its a great render engine so why not share it with everyone?

-there are many little things in maya that are useful for a production experienced artist. its hard to list them all but things like repeat last command, a list of last commands fired, ability to easily create mel scripts, ability to create custom buttons by dragging a mel script out of the command editor and into the button shelf. ability to drag any button to any location in your shelf, ability to completely strip your ui and configure it how you want it, even customize the icons. dont like pictures? make icons with text. all the people that complain about mayas icons need to be backhanded in the mouth because they just have no idea how flexible it is and are just talking out of their asses.

-ever created an expression in lw only to see it get broken if you clone an item and its name gets changed (item (1)) ? imagine a complex scene in LW with lots of expressions (my typical scene is always full of expressions and item connections in order to have a fast and reusable work flow) imagine the havoc a load from scene does to my expressions. it breaks them all. in most cases i have to redo lots of them manually. Maya does not have such a problem. it allows you to isolate item relationships by renaming things on import with a load from scene prefix and maintains relationships throughout. this is a huge Achilles heel for lw in any serious production.

-OGL speed. blows lw out of the water. nuff said.

-lw loves to **** with my configs. it loves to lose my key bindings, my menu settings and even my plugin configs. in maya all personalized configs are centralized, easy to manage and are really nice when you are dealing with lots of users, per login. its not perfect but its far more robust then LWs. lets hope they fix this one as it seems that they are doing more work on it.

-lets tackle the claim that lw can do 90% of maya. lets see. Lw does not have useable hair, lw does not have paint effects (a very powerful feature that i can write a whole book about), lw does not have painting tools (yes you can texture in maya, its not perfect but its a great starting point for later photoshop tweaking), lw does not have an effective character solution (lots of features go into this, this is a big big percentage of ability hit for lw) lw does not have file referencing, liquids (oceans, wake generators, etc), cloth (lws cloth is not a feature, its a joke). infact maya has 2 cloth solutions integrated, syflex AND ncloth - which IMO is the most badass cloth solution i have ever used. Lightwave does not have alot of the constraints that maya has, this goes hand in hand with character tools but they are also useful for much more than that. Snapping in LW is non existent unless you go third party. last but not least, maya is a fully nodal based architecture that has full construction history. this is HUGE. all said and done, i think we have enough here to say that lw can do about 30% of what maya can.

-i am typing this all blindly and from memory. i am absolutely positive that im only scratching the surface here. i think it would be best if people ask me about a particular feature and i will gladly tell you how it compares to maya and what its limitations are.

pardon me for any spelling errors because lw has a stupid forum limitation that prevents me from editing. ill consider this as another detractor compared to maya ;) it shows newteks refusal to be flexible to suit their users.

bobakabob
07-08-2007, 12:13 PM
Wow... Not seen one of these threads for a while :D

I prefer Sponge Bob Square Pants Pencils over Crayola 8 Silly Scents Pencils. Does that make me a fanboy?

toby
07-08-2007, 12:23 PM
THATS nice. i have been using maya "intensely" for the last 6 years. so it kinda trumps your 2 months of experience and then some... you have alot to learn. to say the least. i think once you understand it more, you will appreciate what i have to say. its not hating on lw.
So I have to use it for years to determine whether it's fun or not? Is that what you're going to tell the new guy? Try each one for years to decide which one you like best? With Maya I'm way past the point where I knew I was having fun with LW, that was about 2 weeks. I've been 'toying' with Maya for a few years anyway.

As far as appreciating what you have to say, you've only talked about which one is a better program, not which one is enjoyable.

cresshead
07-08-2007, 12:24 PM
and the point upgrade for maya [yup...point...as in 8.0 to 8.5] is full priced at around 700....miss 2 point updates say 8.0 an 8.5 then you may as well buy a new seat of maya complete toget maya 9.0....or maya 8.6!

point update for xsi foundation:- there isn't one...
new full point version?:-.buy the new version!..they did offer $50 off the total price the last time but only for a month and thatwas BEFORE it was released...so you couldn't try it....

wan to swap n run your app on another o/s....buy a new version then....
this goes for maya and xsi i believe...

lightwave...move the usb dongle...you get BOTH installs for free...move whenever you want/need to.
lightwave point updates are free...
lightwave also offered at beta to try before the free point update comes out.

options...

Stooch
07-08-2007, 12:33 PM
So I have to use it for years to determine whether it's fun or not? Is that what you're going to tell the new guy? Try each one for years to decide which one you like best? With Maya I'm way past the point where I knew I was having fun with LW, that was about 2 weeks. I've been 'toying' with Maya for a few years anyway.

As far as appreciating what you have to say, you've only talked about which one is a better program, not which one is enjoyable.

drop it. i am not interested in arguing with you about me. i am here to talk about lw vs maya. you do not know maya enough for me to bother with you other then engaging in a pissing contest.

Stooch
07-08-2007, 12:35 PM
stop talking about money. i have made a few points as to why maya costs what it does. the feature list alone should tell you that there is alot more to point updates then lws. this isnt about whats cheaper. if you waste a few weeks of billable man hours, at a typical salary, your savings on lw go out the window. i think everyone knows the benefits of lws pricing.



and the point upgrade for maya [yup...point...as in 8.0 to 8.5] is full priced at around 700....miss 2 point updates say 8.0 an 8.5 then you may as well buy a new seat of maya complete toget maya 9.0....or maya 8.6!

point update for xsi foundation:- there isn't one...
new full point version?:-.buy the new version!..they did offer $50 off the total price the last time but only for a month and thatwas BEFORE it was released...so you couldn't try it....

wan to swap n run your app on another o/s....buy a new version then....
this goes for maya and xsi i believe...

lightwave...move the usb dongle...you get BOTH installs for free...move whenever you want/need to.
lightwave point updates are free...
lightwave also offered at beta to try before the free point update comes out.

options...

juice
07-08-2007, 12:47 PM
wan to swap n run your app on another o/s....buy a new version then....
this goes for maya and xsi i believe...

lightwave...move the usb dongle...you get BOTH installs for free...move whenever you want/need to.

options...


If you buy Maya (even complete) you get Windows, OSX and Linux (by the way where is Lightwave for linux?)
If you buy a dongled Maya, (I have one because I got Maya since 1.5 and it was standart with dongle than)... you can move like with lightwave with your dongle... OK for the dongle you have to pay, but for lightwave you have to pay for the manuals, and with maya you get even with complete 2 boxes with many manuals...

Stooch
07-08-2007, 12:54 PM
Maybe you should stop smoking and take some time learning to quote people correctly?

(we are currently working in Maya v7.01 and to be honest, without the magic of the two MEL-kings we have in our team, we would have had alot more technical problems to solve).

first of all. i apologize for misquoting, i must have hit the wrong quote button as i was severely hammered last night.

as far as your example with "mel-kings". atleast you can have mel kings to solve your problems. touche?

jasonwestmas
07-08-2007, 01:17 PM
Hmm, Not sure why you are having that much trouble with the performance Dodgy. It runs fine and smooth and without problems on my 2.8Ghz P4 with 2.5 GB of Ram. I even subdivided a bipedal Character twice and incresed the Sub-D level and it worked fine when moving verts. I couldn't even dream to do that with the LW Catmull Clark. The gigapolygon core is definately at work but I'm sure it would work even better in 64-bit but I only have Foundation. Needless to say I have even better performance on an AMD 64 Athlon 6000+.
It's a long shot but maybe XSI makes different use of your Video Card?

tischbein3
07-08-2007, 01:32 PM
well it seems here from the users side,.. it is just render focused .
Thanks to open beta nda, I cannot explain you on a sufficent level what I'm after, without breaching it. I though I could, by pointing out the new ObjectID System but without refering to the timeline it has been implmented makes no sense at all...
Only that much: I do think it greatly changed my perspective towards LW development in general to see when, what, and how current features have been implmented / surfaced.



I may rant and rave here But all i wanted for the last 3 -4 years is to have a load from scene that kept the lock items setting and selection sets on imported rigs. Hasn't happened....?

uhm... As for the "load from scene" command in 9.2 - it has....

(just checked it, if I understood you right and this wasn't ment ironically..or reffered to the "import rigg" command ..wich would be a nice feature btw.. )

(imho in a community like lw, it is essential to have those rants (= reality checks) on both sides)



I would like to see What attuide LW will have once it has a real 3D animation system in place.


I also do. I'm still not sure what the semi-offical AS-improvement announcement actually mean: Improvement of the current tool in reliabillity and features, or a new concept....we'll see

toby
07-08-2007, 01:38 PM
drop it. i am not interested in arguing with you about me. i am here to talk about lw vs maya. you do not know maya enough for me to bother with you other then engaging in a pissing contest.
'Cry me a river'.

Three times now I've said that I'm talking about which package is actually enjoyable, not 'the coolest' nor even 'the most powerful', I even said it's completely subjective, and it's obvious which one is more powerful anyway. How do you come up with 'I'm not going to argue about me'? :stumped:

Cageman
07-08-2007, 01:48 PM
first of all. i apologize for misquoting, i must have hit the wrong quote button as i was severely hammered last night.

as far as your example with "mel-kings". atleast you can have mel kings to solve your problems. touche?

Apology accepted! :)

Well, many of the "problems" we have encountered are actually functionality that we were used to from LightWave that are not standard in Maya. :) A couple of examples:

Move Path is heavily used in LightWave, so we had one of the MEL-kings to write a script that gives a similar functionality in Maya.

Camera-animation: The way you rotate and control a Camera in LW when looking through it combined with recording the animation when animating the camera in LW. MEL-kings made a script that gets you about 75% there.

Motionfiles: So far we havn't found a robust way to select a, lets say, joint hierarchy, save out all the motion and load them to a completely different character in the same scene or another scene. Thanks to Lernie Ang, there is an L-script that loads/saves motionfiles enmasse.

However, we have a script that let us load/save animations on joints, but only to the same character. The dumbness of LW treating all kind of motions the same way is a a good thing, because I can easily save a motionfile from a bone and load it onto any other type of item in LW. One can argue what the use of motiofiles in Maya would give, but I have missed them alot in certain situations which means I have something in LW that streamlines alot of the things I do.

Load from Scene: We have really heavy scenes in Maya and countless times I've had to save what I was doing, load a huge scene, create a locator, parentconstrain to whatever, bake keys, save the locator using Save Selection (sweet tool endeed). Reload the scene I was working on, import the exported locator. This is only because I needed a specific object from another scene to work as a reference to where to put whatever I was doing. In recent versions of LW you can select what you want to load from the scene, which is a huge timesaver, esp when you need to do things that requires some kind of visual reference from another scene.

Vertex Cache: Maya 8 got it, Maya 7 doesn't. LW has had it for ages. One of the things I would guess that ruins our MR experience; rigged characters with alot of keyframes and NO WAY to cache the deformations and get rid of the rig. Now it is too late to bring in PointOven... :/ Next time we will probably go for Maya 8.5. :)

Small stuff, yep, but since they add so much to the workflow, I would rule them very important, and LightWave has had them all for ages, natively (except the multimotionfile exporter). :)

Chris S. (Fez)
07-08-2007, 01:49 PM
I don't think there is any question that, ultimately, Maya far exceeds Lightwave's capabilities.

However, for the large majority of 3D artists not living in Hollywood, Maya Unlimited's toolset seems excessive and expensive to me...especially compared to Lightwave/Max.

For pre-viz, print and motion graphics developed by small teams or lone artists with short if not same-day deadlines I still think Lightwave/Fprime/G2 shines.

Having said that, the lack of development in deformations, Render Passes, scene management and workflow/performance is why Lightwave is no longer my primary application. I hope all this hard work Lightwave developers have been putting into the core will start paying off sooner rather than later...because the competition is sharpening its claws.

cresshead
07-08-2007, 02:30 PM
stop talking about money. i have made a few points as to why maya costs what it does. the feature list alone should tell you that there is alot more to point updates then lws. this isnt about whats cheaper. if you waste a few weeks of billable man hours, at a typical salary, your savings on lw go out the window. i think everyone knows the benefits of lws pricing.

HOW RUDE CAN YOU POSSIBLY GET?

did i miss a memo on who was in charge of the content of this thread?:thumbsdow

voriax
07-08-2007, 06:40 PM
Wow.. how unpredictable.. Someone mentions LW and another package in the same sentence and it starts a "who's the best" war.
Seriously, shouldn't this thread have been locked by now?
Especially since the first poster is slightly suspect .. How many people "just play" with software ranging from $1000 to $7000+?

sergiox
07-08-2007, 07:02 PM
Mmmm. We have LW, Maya, XSI and 3DS here, at our company.
We use all of them. All depends in the project goal.

The most used: LW
The less used: XSI

What is important for us is the talent. No matter what program the guy uses. Here everyone uses at least two of them.

I really think that you can get excelent results with any tool. The point is that a good professional makes a good job passing over any limitation.

I you want fun... You need creativity. No matter the tool.

Mr Rid
07-08-2007, 07:49 PM
Crowd/soldier scenes in The Last Samurai...
Creatures on James Camerons Aliens of The Deep...
Im sure there are others. :)

Oh there are others. But you have to compare the complexity of the project. The original point was Maya is regularly associated with Oscars, and LW is less often associated with Emmys. There's a slight difference in the complexity of CG on Lost and CG on Pirates of the Caribbean, or say distant, barely-moving crowds in Last Samurai and a closeup on Davy Jones.

Mr Rid
07-08-2007, 08:11 PM
I don't think there is any question that, ultimately, Maya far exceeds Lightwave's capabilities.

However, for the large majority of 3D artists not living in Hollywood, Maya Unlimited's toolset seems excessive and expensive to me...especially compared to Lightwave/Max.

I dont understand why anyone brings up a price comparison. When you work for an animation company, they provide you withe licenses and rendering solution. You dont have to worry about buying them. If you want to learn, there are free learning editions. And you can always use a crack to learn with. Spare us the crack lectures, this is presisely what cracks are good for when you cant afford a $5k to $10k app. The vendors know this. Cracks only only add to the pool of skilled users who can move into the money. When you earn a salary appropriate to a deserving professional skill level, then you can afford a legit license. Same goes for self-employed artists.

But you ought to consider what degree of income security are you interested in? And what type of work are you interested in doing?

I prefer to work in feature films where I find the most challenging bar. In which case, LW is on the low rung. Just a fact.

In case you missed it,
3D app specific job postings on VFXpro, in the last 30 days:

Maya- 41
Max- 11
XSI- 4
Houdini- 4
Cinema 4D- 2
LW- 1
Unspecified- 10

t4d
07-08-2007, 08:19 PM
uhm... As for the "load from scene" command in 9.2 - it has....

(just checked it, if I understood you right and this wasn't ment ironically..or reffered to the "import rigg" command ..wich would be a nice feature btw.. )

(imho in a community like lw, it is essential to have those rants (= reality checks) on both sides)



that's the most Painfull thing,.. I saw the load scene panel shown for lw 9 and was like YES they finally done it,...

Once installed and checked,.. still no way to import a rig from one scene to another ? ( I worked as layout and TD on a Production for nearly 2 years ) and having to recreate selection sets and lock all the items for 300 odd scenes for every rig once it was load into the set,.. was just out of the question,,..

and made My job as rigger pretty painfull knowing your not giving the animators the best workflow for each scene that i could....

it's the most simplest request that is easy to see would make LW much more production friendly,.. yet here we are 4 years later and still no load from scene or workflow that can import a fully rigged character into a layout scene ?. ( add to that the many many other things i requested that were pretty easy to see would be nice )

sorry I do rant too much,. but man it Sh!ts me..
( and sorry now i uses Messiah and XSI,.. Object ID is a tidy issues I can't see that being any step forward untill we see Major in your face changes in LW Animation system )


one more thing i will add there is no Clear answer what Software tool is better it all depend on
- what project your doing
- budget
- talent in the building
- level of detail needed

( I think XSI is the best, But it is over kill sometimes and Messiah and LW have they charms on the right project )

but Each artist has to work out what they need and from work they are doing.

BUT at the moment LW is only just above truespace in the 3D market ( features and workflow ) and is behide MAX, Maya, C4D, XSI , and even blender ( and modo and messiah in those areas )

LW didn't and does not need any more render improvments It needs what it needed 5 years ago ( animation and a complete interface update )

some seem to still love the old LW but So many users have emailed me with WOW Man you were right you bastard !!! LOL =) ..
( be it Maya, Messiah or XSI ) that i see no reason to shutup untill Newtek address the issues they users have asked for all these years ...

( i want the old girl up and running again I want to update my plugins one day ;)

Mr Rid
07-08-2007, 08:21 PM
Mmmm. We have LW, Maya, XSI and 3DS here, at our company.
We use all of them. All depends in the project goal.

The most used: LW
The less used: XSI

What is important for us is the talent. No matter what program the guy uses. Here everyone uses at least two of them.

I really think that you can get excelent results with any tool. The point is that a good professional makes a good job passing over any limitation.

I you want fun... You need creativity. No matter the tool.

Problem is that the job postings tend to be app specific. I can do things in LW that even LW users dont realize can be done, but it doesnt do much good when Maya job posts outweigh LW 40 to 1 (VFXpro). My LW animation demo may dazzle, and Ive applied to Maya and Max jobs anyway (Ive only supervised Maya and Max artists). But skill as an artist will more often lose to skill in a specific app.

And this point of 'fun' is silly. My Amiga, Atari 800, and TRS-80 are 'fun.' But I am not going to attempt serious work on them, whether for hire or for personal project.

Mr Rid
07-08-2007, 08:51 PM
Now the 2 million dollar question- how to get Newtek to do something about it?

Thank you for posting this! A constructive, concise account. Ive heard most of this and more for years from plenty of artists advanced in both LW and Maya. In fact, every good Maya animator Ive ever worked with started in LW (and most left it, except for maybe modeling and rendering).

The overall difference is how Maya works on a real world major production with hundreds of artists in a pipeline. LW is practically a toy in comparison to the industrial strength tool that Maya is.

Any ideas on how to get Newtek to listen? Ive been trying to talk to them for 10 years. Nothing but a blank wall. What's the problem with these people? Why are they content with being so much less?


ok, sure thing.

-first and foremost, maya has a very well developed a deep scripting language. ... the most defining features that has allowed maya to get where it is today.

-with the accessible scripting language there is a ridiculous amount of helper tools that you can get to speed up your workflow.

-the hair, particle and dynamics in maya are very powerful and have alot of flexibility. (and look good) compared to maya LWs dynamics are very rudimentary and inaccurate.

-animation is where maya shines,

-VERY fast interaction speed. ... the layering system (ala modeler) is available in the animation workflow, so that you can isolate and control your scene in order to have fast interaction regardless of scene complexity.

-file referencing allows you to collaborate with a large team by inserting dynamic links to scene assets, so that you are always working on the most current scene non destructively. LW has alot to learn about collaborative workflow in general.

-in general Maya can handle much more per scene before crapping out,

-compositing in maya is brilliant. the layer system that i mentioned before allows not only an intuitive way to control visibility, it also allows you to assign render passes/layers with one click output presets. ... w is HORRIBLE in comparison. especially when dealing with complex shots that require many elements.

-maya has alot of tools out of the box. ... maya costs 7k, so you can imagine how much more resources they have...

-soft body dynamics is so robust that in comparison to LW i consider its implementation as non existent.

-hair in maya is infinitelly more customizeable, better integrated and combined with its attribute painting tool,

-... this selection scheme is so full of features taht its hard to outline it all in a post. lets just say that selecting things in maya is infinitelly better than LW.

-rigging in maya goes beyond characters. ... really brilliant use of dynamics and item connections in order to automate things you would normally be stuck with doing manually in LW.

-there is a tone of settings per object. TONNES. ... lw has half assed mass item attribute editing.

-the item selection is so ridiculously awesome... lw can add all the features they want, but having LS script on par with mel will make LW a mainstream application FASTER then anything newtek can tack onto the core. they need to really sit down and get their priorities straight. this should be number one.

-speaking of SDK, the third party support for maya blows lw out of the water. you think lw has lots of free plugins?? just visit www.highend3d.com and try not to drool on your crotch. hmm, i wonder how much of that is related to the awesome mel support and the SDK.

-dynamics in maya are so powerful that when combined with mel scripting you can actually make fully interactive games that run in mayas ogl. try that in LW. now take this one step further and apply to it a crowd scene. getting the picture yet?

-character sets. ... again collaborative work in maya is infinitelly better than LW, NT really needs to focus on this aspect if they want to get into big studios.

-standalone render core in maya allows them to use as many render engines as they want ...

-there are many little things in maya that are useful for a production experienced artist. its hard to list them all ...

-...imagine a complex scene in LW with lots of expressions (my typical scene is always full of expressions and item connections in order to have a fast and reusable work flow) imagine the havoc a load from scene does to my expressions. it breaks them all. in most cases i have to redo lots of them manually. Maya does not have such a problem. ... this is a huge Achilles heel for lw in any serious production.

-OGL speed. blows lw out of the water.

-lets tackle the claim that lw can do 90% of maya. lets see. Lw does not have useable hair, lw does not have paint effects (a very powerful feature that i can write a whole book about), lw does not have painting tools (yes you can texture in maya, its not perfect but its a great starting point for later photoshop tweaking), lw does not have an effective character solution (lots of features go into this, this is a big big percentage of ability hit for lw) lw does not have file referencing, liquids (oceans, wake generators, etc), cloth (lws cloth is not a feature, its a joke). infact maya has 2 cloth solutions integrated, syflex AND ncloth - which IMO is the most badass cloth solution i have ever used. Lightwave does not have alot of the constraints that maya has, this goes hand in hand with character tools but they are also useful for much more than that. Snapping in LW is non existent unless you go third party. last but not least, maya is a fully nodal based architecture that has full construction history. this is HUGE. all said and done, i think we have enough here to say that lw can do about 30% of what maya can.

-i am typing this all blindly and from memory. i am absolutely positive that im only scratching the surface here. i think it would be best if people ask me about a particular feature and i will gladly tell you how it compares to maya and what its limitations are.

pardon me for any spelling errors because lw has a stupid forum limitation that prevents me from editing. ill consider this as another detractor compared to maya ;) it shows newteks refusal to be flexible to suit their users.

Cageman
07-08-2007, 08:54 PM
Mr Rid...

Are you saing that everyone who even thinks about doodling with 3D shouldn't even concider LightWave, even if it's just for fun and hobby?

Are you serious? Really?

Cageman
07-08-2007, 09:00 PM
Any ideas on how to get Newtek to listen? Ive been trying to talk to them for 10 years. Nothing but a blank wall. What's the problem with these people? Why are they content with being so much less?

A good start is to join the OB-forum. No, you don't need to sit down and beta-test for free if that is what you are thinking. But it helps if you have the latest build installed, otherwise it will be like shooting in the dark.

jasonwestmas
07-08-2007, 09:13 PM
I thought it was obvious why LW is taking so long to catch up. . .Reading the posts on the Beta forums clears things up quite a bit, I suggest some of you sign up and do a little reading. I like the rendering improvements a great deal, I'm sure only 1 out of 40 3D users know just how cool it is, probably far less than that. But like some of you guys have implied if you have the money who needs lightwave and Fprime? Use Mental Ray and Renderman if you can. Obviously I'm speaking from a freelancer's point of view.

Chris S. (Fez)
07-08-2007, 09:45 PM
But you ought to consider what degree of income security are you interested in? And what type of work are you interested in doing?


That is exactly why I "[brought] up the price comparison". Because for those smaller studios and individual artists working outside of Hollywood, I think maintaining a Maya Unlimited license is currently overkill when taking into account what Lightwave is capable of, let alone XSI and Max.

The days of getting paid small fortunes for flying logos may be gone, but I find for every project that requires Cloth or Particle Simulations there are fifty that require straightforward illustration or animation.

But times are changing. Clients are increasingly savvy and will soon be all but demanding miracles. Accordingly, "Highend" software like Maya Unlimited might soon make sense even for small studios.

I don't think it is realistic to expect Lightwave to ever be as deep and flexible as Maya, but I DO expect Newtek to strive for superior stability, performance and workflow. Give us a kick-*** core and let Worley worry about the whizbang features :).

Stooch
07-08-2007, 10:00 PM
That is exactly why I "[brought] up the price comparison". Because for those smaller studios and individual artists working outside of Hollywood, I think maintaining a Maya Unlimited license is currently overkill when taking into account what Lightwave is capable of, let alone XSI and Max.

The days of getting paid small fortunes for flying logos may be gone, but I find for every project that requires Cloth or Particle Simulations there are fifty that require straightforward illustration or animation.

But times are changing. Clients are increasingly savvy and will soon be all but demanding miracles. Accordingly, "Highend" software like Maya Unlimited might soon make sense even for small studios.

I don't think it is realistic to expect Lightwave to ever be as deep and flexible as Maya, but I DO expect Newtek to strive for superior stability, performance and workflow. Give us a kick-*** core and let Worley worry about the whizbang features :).

pick the best tool for the job :) i dont think anyone here is implying that its pointless to buy lw, just putting features in perspective and debating the current direction of LW.

SplineGod
07-08-2007, 10:42 PM
Oh there are others. But you have to compare the complexity of the project. The original point was Maya is regularly associated with Oscars, and LW is less often associated with Emmys. There's a slight difference in the complexity of CG on Lost and CG on Pirates of the Caribbean, or say distant, barely-moving crowds in Last Samurai and a closeup on Davy Jones.

Regardless of the complexity of the CG it demonstrates what deep pockets, large teams and lots of time can accomplish. Could LW pull off many of those effects given the same resources? Who can say....

In one sense it wouldnt matter if Newtek suddenly pulled something out that was overall as deep as Maya. The reason is that the large studios have a lot of time and resources invested into their pipelines. The TDs who run those pipelines have a big vested interest in keeping things the way they are (job security).
Another thing even if LW could pull off a Davey Jones, Gollum etc. Whos going to do it? Those were done by huge teams with lots of money. Gollums budget alone probably exceeded many movies or TV shows. :)

SplineGod
07-08-2007, 10:58 PM
That is exactly why I "[brought] up the price comparison". Because for those smaller studios and individual artists working outside of Hollywood, I think maintaining a Maya Unlimited license is currently overkill when taking into account what Lightwave is capable of, let alone XSI and Max.

This is from TrendWatch Visual Effects/Dynamic Media Report - Issue
#3, Summer 2003
"almost half of all studios/facilities have
less than 5 employees and only 8% have 20+ employees, but these 8% account for 47% of the jobs in the industry."

I dont know what the numbers are today but Id be willing to bet its more skewed towards the smaller studios even more.
Lots of the big studios farm work out to smaller places. Many may think that smaller studios work on less glamorous jobs which is not the case. Ive seen many small places work on shots for large films. Autumn Light in Albuquerque has worked on several shots for large films such as MIB, Black Hawk Down, The Siege, Stuart Little and others. Those were all done in LW with a team of less then 5 ppl. This is even more common today. To say that working at a small studio some equals doing less fun, challenging or glamorous work is simply not true. :)

LW fits perfectly in environments where you need generalists which is where probably most of the work is these days.

Mr Rid
07-08-2007, 11:20 PM
Mr Rid...

Are you saing that everyone who even thinks about doodling with 3D shouldn't even concider LightWave, even if it's just for fun and hobby?

Are you serious? Really?

Wow, the point still isnt clear? Perhaps you missed where I said 'you ought to consider what type of work are you interested in doing?' If you really just want cheap fun there's an Amiga Toaster on Ebay for $80 that allows you to do more than just CG.

Or how about Poser? Its fun, easier, much cheaper than LW. You might be surprised if you havent looked at it lately. DAZ is free, fun, and expandable for very cheap as your interest in more capabilities grows- radiosity, sub-surface scatter, rigging, etc can each be added for dollars. I was able to populate a short with several highly detailed characters with tons of facial expressions an dphenomse, each individual muscle is deformable, all in a tiny fraction of the time it would take in LW or Maya.

But why think no further than doodling, when you could be learning tools that may allow you to earn a good living doing something you love doing? I dont see why LW in particular, when the learning edition of Maya is no less fun or more diffucult to learn than LW's, and you can start heading toward a possible career using the most potent 3D app on the planet and the greatest potential for job opportunities.

SplineGod
07-09-2007, 12:03 AM
You must be talking about a version of Poser Ive never heard of and Im quite familiar with the current version. Its got some nifty tools but overall is nowhere nearly as powerful as LW or most other 3d apps for that matter. :)

I also think the key word you used is "may'. 'Knowing" maya doesnt guarentee that youre going to have work or that when you do have work that its going to be on some sexy project. Even if you do get on that sexy project it also doesnt mean you get to do anything sexy on it. I would go so far to say that most people working and using Maya arent working on the coolest parts of the coolest projects.

Mr Rid
07-09-2007, 12:11 AM
This is from TrendWatch Visual Effects/Dynamic Media Report - Issue
#3, Summer 2003
"almost half of all studios/facilities have
less than 5 employees and only 8% have 20+ employees, but these 8% account for 47% of the jobs in the industry."

I dont know what the numbers are today but Id be willing to bet its more skewed towards the smaller studios even more.
Lots of the big studios farm work out to smaller places. Many may think that smaller studios work on less glamorous jobs which is not the case. Ive seen many small places work on shots for large films. Autumn Light in Albuquerque has worked on several shots for large films such as MIB, Black Hawk Down, The Siege, Stuart Little and others. Those were all done in LW with a team of less then 5 ppl. This is even more common today. To say that working at a small studio some equals doing less fun, challenging or glamorous work is simply not true. :)

LW fits perfectly in environments where you need generalists which is where probably most of the work is these days.

Most of feature film CG work is not being done by generalists or LW if that is what you mean by 'probably most of the work.'
I've worked for a number of these small houses that do feature work using LW. They struggle to get the cool bids that usually wind up going to someone else. More often the small houses are picking up scraps that someone else didnt want or dropped the ball on, or otherwise needed done last minute or on a crunch. The really cool gigs are tougher to land, but it happens. The bread and butter is usually something less glamorous. And even on a cool job, the more interesting tasks are usually assigned to Maya or Max. Same in commercials- for every groovie videogame cinematic you do, you have to do a dozen talking tampons.

LW grazes a lot of feature work. There is an impressive list of movie credits associated with LW. But as I keep pointing out, you have to consider what the specific tasks were in comparison to what Maya is being used for in the same feature film. If you work as a LW artist in features, you know that the heavy chores are much more often handled in Maya or Max over LW, for very the ample reasons that some of the non-pods here are making VERY clear. And do you think that artists hired for key characters and FX are being paid the same for those who just do distant crowds or set extensions? LW is cost effective for simpler tasks that dont require more complexity or a denser pipeline. Look at the interview with the head of Pixel speaking on their work on 300. He tactfully says, 'It's what we can offer at a price for the customer.' Meaning, 300 was a crunch job (simple arrows and landscapes here), with not enough time or money to make exactly award winning CG. So use LW.

I was a CG supervisor on Sin City. LW artists with advanced feature work experience are hard to find. LW was used primarily for sets and simple animation. The major FX were handled in Max, the major dynamics and the few character shots were handled in Maya. Max and Maya work better for more complex CG work, and there are more feature film experienced Maya artists available to handle it. That is all there is to it.

Why did a small house like DNA switch from LW to Maya in the face of real world production demands? Why did a small house like MeniThings switch from LW to Maya when they landed their first big feature? There is no denying LW plays a less significant role than Maya in feature film work, for a very good reason. You can only ask Newtek why that is.

Mr Rid
07-09-2007, 12:15 AM
You must be talking about a version of Poser Ive never heard of and Im quite familiar with the current version. Its got some nifty tools but overall is nowhere nearly as powerful as LW or most other 3d apps for that matter. :)


We were talking 'fun' not power, remember? You can animate for fun in Poser for less money and learning curve than LW.

I also think the key word you used is "may'. 'Knowing" maya doesnt guarentee that youre going to have work or that when you do have work that its going to be on some sexy project. [/QUOTE]

Who said anything about a guarantee? There is a significantly greater likelihood for Maya than LW. Which part of the job stats on VFXpro werent clear?

scratch33
07-09-2007, 12:36 AM
In case you missed it,
3D app specific job postings on VFXpro, in the last 30 days:

Maya- 41
Max- 11
XSI- 4
Houdini- 4
Cinema 4D- 2
LW- 1
Unspecified- 10

oh my god, we must all buy maya!!!
ops... no work for modo... I thing luxology can stop modo development and go working in autodesk to develop maya.:ohmy: )

remember that we are not all working in hollywood studio...and for the majority off us, money is important. And remember that in most case, in a standart use, we can do, everything with lightwave for less less money. and if
we must do specific things like clothfx(the lw solution is not so so bad :bump: )we can add some good little plug like syflex:D

SplineGod
07-09-2007, 12:54 AM
I dont think that generalizing about how many jobs are out there based on Job ads on a message board is very accurate.

Most studios tend to promote people internally who are somewhat familiar with the pipeline. When they cant fulfill jobs that way they tend to get recommendations from people they know and trust. A lot of people dont have the time nor the inclination to wade thru a lot of reels which tend to mostly be bad ones to find the few gems. Its a waste of time. Many studios at siggraph get hundreds of demo reel submissions a day. Maybe a few years ago people could get hired strictly off of demo reels but now its more about networking and referrels. Whats left after hiring internally or getting referrels ends up on job boards maybe.

During dry spells Ive seen studios put job offers out there simply to look like theyre busy but then claim theyre collecting resumes for a few weeks or months down the road.

A lot of places also use agencies to find 3d artists.

Also theres a lot of studios who are bidding on the same jobs plus ads put out by agencies looking for ppl for those very same jobs. Theres a fair bit of duplication going on.

Ive also seen studios put out job offers by people at a level who arent totally familiar with what software is actually being used. For example, there was a thread on spinquad referring to rainmaker having posted job offers for Maya artists. Someone assumed that this meant they werent using LW or hiring LW artists. Someone from Rainmaker popped on and said that this wasnt the case and that they were always on the lookout for good LW artists.

The point is that these sorts of things never get taken into account when simply counting job postings on msg boards.

RTSchramm
07-09-2007, 12:58 AM
Has every one forgot what the first thread topic was?

"Should I use lightwave or maya? I just want to have fun with it. Which is better, thanks."

It always seem to turn into a "this is better than that" argument. I own the following 3D apps: Lightwave 9.2, Maya 8.5 unlimited, 3D Max 9, Modo 203 (soon to be Modo 301), zbrush 3.0, mudbox 1.0, Poser 7, Blender 3D 2.44,Cinema 4D R10 with BodyPaint 3D R3, Truespace 7.0, and XSI Advanced v6.0. Except for LW 9.2, Truespace 7.0, and zbrush 3, the rest are fully functional student versions that I got for less than $300 each.

The point is, I have seen artists do excellent work with either of these packages. And in each forum, there are users who ***** about the limitations of their favorite 3D app, or the things they can't do with it. THERE IS NOT PERFECT 3D APPLICATION!

Which brings me back to the beginning of this post. It doesn't matter which software package is perceived to be the best, its the end results that count. The best 3D app in the world isn't going to make a lousy artist a great one, but an experienced 3D artist can create great art in any 3D app.

I just wish we use the forums for the purposes that they were intended for: to advance our knowledge of the 3D design, help out a friend in need, and to exchange ideas relating to the product in question.

I think that based on performance, ease of use, fun factor, and price, Lightwave 9.2 is the best 3D application out there. Many of the 3D concepts used in LW can easily be carried over to the more expensive 3D apps, such as Maya and 3D Max.

There is more to LW than most users will ever use.

Rich

toby
07-09-2007, 01:32 AM
And this point of 'fun' is silly. My Amiga, Atari 800, and TRS-80 are 'fun.' But I am not going to attempt serious work on them, whether for hire or for personal project.
Oh the he|| it's 'silly'. There's got to be tens of thousands of hobbyists out there, you may as well tell them to learn Renderman programming just to have fun with 3D. There's people using LW who've retired, people who already have a career they like, and have no intention of moving to LA or NY or SF to do 'serious' 3D. The notion of 'just having fun' is completely valid. Sure there's cheaper options than LW (Poser being one of the more limited ones), and there's nobody stopping anyone from suggesting those. He asked for a choice bwtn LW and Maya though.

Mr Rid
07-09-2007, 05:25 AM
After all this ample response, why hasnt the individual who posted the original question said anything?

Fun-
Certainly a relative term. What 3D app is no fun? I dont see how anyone can conclude that either LW or Maya is more or less fun. I found the learning curves to be relatively equal overall. But I only find the 'Fun' thing to be an irrelevant question, like 'which is more fun, ovens or microwaves? Paper or plastic? Midgets or dwarves? The more useful question is, 'what is it you are wanting to accomplish?'

Power-
Maya is clearly more potent overall, even if you believe it is only by '10%.'... even though the percentage is really greater than that according to most with experience in both at complex tasks. Out of dozens of artists Ive spoken with, intimately familiar with both apps, no one has ever said they found LW preferable in animation or dynamics, but only in modeling and rendering. Many have gone from mostly using LW to mostly using Maya, some like both, but Ive never heard of a Maya user who picked up LW and said, 'Wow, this is so much better!' Maya's superior animation tools and dynamics are a no brainer. And I see animation as the main purpose of these tools.

Price-
Both have learning editions and cracks available for learning purposes.

Jobs-
There are a lot more of them, and more high profile ones for Maya since it is an industry standard.

So, if neither will cost you to play around in, have equal potnetial for 'fun', why mess with the app with less versatility or job security? If you really just want to play with yourself, then get Poser.

Mr Rid
07-09-2007, 06:32 AM
I dont think that generalizing about how many jobs are out there based on Job ads on a message board is very accurate.

Most studios tend to promote people internally who are somewhat familiar with the pipeline. When they cant fulfill jobs that way they tend to get recommendations from people they know and trust. A lot of people dont have the time nor the inclination to wade thru a lot of reels which tend to mostly be bad ones to find the few gems. Its a waste of time. Many studios at siggraph get hundreds of demo reel submissions a day. Maybe a few years ago people could get hired strictly off of demo reels but now its more about networking and referrels. Whats left after hiring internally or getting referrels ends up on job boards maybe.

During dry spells Ive seen studios put job offers out there simply to look like theyre busy but then claim theyre collecting resumes for a few weeks or months down the road.

A lot of places also use agencies to find 3d artists.

Also theres a lot of studios who are bidding on the same jobs plus ads put out by agencies looking for ppl for those very same jobs. Theres a fair bit of duplication going on.

Ive also seen studios put out job offers by people at a level who arent totally familiar with what software is actually being used. For example, there was a thread on spinquad referring to rainmaker having posted job offers for Maya artists. Someone assumed that this meant they werent using LW or hiring LW artists. Someone from Rainmaker popped on and said that this wasnt the case and that they were always on the lookout for good LW artists.

The point is that these sorts of things never get taken into account when simply counting job postings on msg boards.



Gee, so there could actually be 40 duplications of what is really only one Maya job opening, compared to one honest LW job posting? Or where they specifically state things like, 'Maya particle FX artist with minimum 3 yrs experience' or 'Maya character rigger- must have 2 years experience' or 'TD or FX Supervisor required 4 years experience with Maya' what they might really mean is 'LW generalists, come on down'? C'mon Lar, your reaching.

And I find this 'its who you know' thing overrated. You may know someone who already works there so you can get your foot in the door, but once you are all the way in that door, you better really know what you are doing. As Ive seen enough guys get in on 'who they knew' but then they didnt measure up and didnt stay long or were not asked back for the next project. No one is in business to bank on your social rep. They are more interested in the best skill suited to the task. Every place Ive ever cold sent a demo to that saw I was qualified, offered me the position. A strong demo and resume will open doors over 'who you know.'

Ive sent demos to posts requiring experience in an app I didnt know. They loved my demo and wanted to hire me... if I ever learned that app. When the last all-LW outpost, Rhythm and Hues commercial division is looking for LW generalists, they are not interested in a Maya animator no matter how experienced he is. They arent set up for it. When the job post says 'Requirements: 4 years feature film experience in Maya,' that is exactly what they mean.

And no, 'a lot of places' dont use agencies. Ive never worked anywhere that did. Ive joined agencies, and Ive never had any job offers thru them. They are a waste of time when a post on VFXpro floods them with demos.

There are way more Maya jobs out there than LW. And for good reason. End of denial.

t4d
07-09-2007, 07:28 AM
Mr Rid, Larry's never going to admit Maya is more powerful or can do more then LW. .... ( he even seems to Say LW could have done Davey Jones or Gollum if they had the $$$ ?? What a load of BS !!! )

SO he's never going to admit there are more maya jobs out there then Lightwave jobs. he needs New LW'ers to make a living for himself, it's the only thing he knows, so he will say whatever BS to talk up LW to try and make a buck....

the rest of us in the real world,
know Maya IS everywhere, and it's not there becasue it has a cool logo or marketing,.. it's there because it's GOOD !!!

we don't even need to see job listings it's just common knowleage for the people with more then half a brain,.. and it's getting to the point where studio's will uses maya just for the talent pool that it brings,. let alone the features and workflow maya has,

( no point in creating a LW studio if you don't have enough talent to run it
let alone the issues LW has ) one studio in OZ switched mainly for the talent issue... ( Switched to XSI at least then they could attract Maya talent )

where i am in OZ we Had a Large LW scene, But it's pretty much zero now.
( and only really died in the last 2 years or so ) most have gone to XSI.

I'm thinking Maya won't completely take over no matter how hard Autodesk pushes for it, because there are afew MAJOR studio's Game and Film down here who have switched from Maya to XSI so the whole " maya pipeline " BS doesn't really stand up when Big guys make the switch like that.

and some of those studios are Animal logic ( happy feat) and Pandemic ( Kill all humans etc )

StereoMike
07-09-2007, 07:32 AM
And farther and farther... you're setting a world record here!

colkai
07-09-2007, 07:56 AM
Please, PLEASE, someone from Newtek shut this tripe down. B1tching and bickering. Repetitive attacks, the old "no, we come to praise..not to bury".

Personal insults all over the place.
Tolerance is one thing, but please, stomp this on the head before it gets any uglier...assuming it possible for it to get any uglier that is!

creativecontrol
07-09-2007, 08:10 AM
I guess I might as well throw in my two cents. I don't think there is any real doubt that Maya has more of everything. But this is also a part of the problem for many users. Maya, for many projects is serious overkill. It's like trying to swat a fly with a sledghammer. You spend more time wading through the thousands of options than you do producing something. I'm talking about small to medium size projects with only one or two people.

There is a place for both. Lightwave is a wonderful "jack of all trades" and it is also master of none. It's not the best at anything BUT you can do almost anything with it for a reasonable price. It is a very complete package, more so than many other high priced alternatives. It has very few gaping holes in it's feature set. Very handy for a small studio.

As far as fun, I have more fun with Lightwave. Maya is like trying to teach yourself Chinese, very frustrating at times. Neither one is real easy but Maya (for me) is more involved.

jasonwestmas
07-09-2007, 08:19 AM
Actually sometimes using maya is like trying to kill a fly with the USS Enterprise from outer space.

scratch33
07-09-2007, 08:28 AM
I guess I might as well throw in my two cents. I don't think there is any real doubt that Maya has more of everything. But this is also a part of the problem for many users. Maya, for many projects is serious overkill. It's like trying to swat a fly with a sledghammer. You spend more time wading through the thousands of options than you do producing something. I'm talking about small to medium size projects with only one or two people.

There is a place for both. Lightwave is a wonderful "jack of all trades" and it is also master of none. It's not the best at anything BUT you can do almost anything with it for a reasonable price. It is a very complete package, more so than many other high priced alternatives. It has very few gaping holes in it's feature set. Very handy for a small studio.

As far as fun, I have more fun with Lightwave. Maya is like trying to teach yourself Chinese, very frustrating at times. Neither one is real easy but Maya (for me) is more involved.

Totaly agree. :agree:

One thing I don't Understand is why t4d writte ,in all forum you can see it(newtek, cgtalk,modo, ecc...), these so long post saying lightwave is a piece of ****. Why you spend all your time like this??? Go and learn maya, xsi or what you want, but don't lose your time like this...:)

jasonwestmas
07-09-2007, 08:36 AM
It is a very complete package, more so than many other high priced alternatives. (for me) is more involved.

I disagree with the complete part. Why would I feel a great need to use Fprime if lightwave is so complete. I was about to abandon ship when I found out that viper didn't support the shader and material nodes

jasonwestmas
07-09-2007, 08:42 AM
Honestly,I wouldn't feel disappointed at all if all lightwave is was a renderer. It's so easy to take things from cheaper packages that do certain things better because they are specialized programs and bring them into lightwave to render. eg Zbrush for fine detailing, eg xsi foundation, character animation.
Think about that one.

prospector
07-09-2007, 08:55 AM
Please, PLEASE, someone from Newtek shut this tripe down.

They are waiting for me to chime in as I usually close threads like this...

SO..

Chime chime chime

creativecontrol
07-09-2007, 09:01 AM
I disagree with the complete part. Why would I feel a great need to use Fprime if lightwave is so complete. I was about to abandon ship when I found out that viper didn't support the shader and material nodes

That's part of the "complete" thing, great 3rd party support again for a reasonable price. Also, FPrime is not at all necessary, nice perhaps but NOT necessary. Anything you can do with it, you can also do without it. But it sure is nice to have those great developers adding to the mix!

creativecontrol
07-09-2007, 09:03 AM
Honestly,I wouldn't feel disappointed at all if all lightwave is was a renderer. It's so easy to take things from cheaper packages that do certain things better because they are specialized programs and bring them into lightwave to render. eg Zbrush for fine detailing, eg xsi foundation, character animation.
Think about that one.

There will always be specialized programs that do specific things better (this includes Maya which is also not the master of everything).

But the great thing is, most of them do export to LW where you can get world class rendering for a good price.

Dodgy
07-09-2007, 09:48 AM
Constructive criticism is great, 'Lw sucks' is not constructive. And saying the same things over and over is not constructive, so I'm going to stop :)

mattclary
07-09-2007, 09:55 AM
If you JUST want to have fun Id get the full version of Maya and any plugins too. :)

LOL!!! You are an evil man, Larry! :thumbsup:

mattclary
07-09-2007, 10:07 AM
LW is more like a Hummer

Yeah! I love Hummers! Who doesn't?!

Wait a minute, was that another vehicle analogy?

mattclary
07-09-2007, 10:20 AM
Gee, so there could actually be 40 duplications of what is really only one Maya job opening, compared to one honest LW job posting? Or where they specifically state things like, 'Maya particle FX artist with minimum 3 yrs experience' or 'Maya character rigger- must have 2 years experience' or 'TD or FX Supervisor required 4 years experience with Maya' what they might really mean is 'LW generalists, come on down'? C'mon Lar, your reaching.

And I find this 'its who you know' thing overrated. You may know someone who already works there so you can get your foot in the door, but once you are all the way in that door, you better really know what you are doing. As Ive seen enough guys get in on 'who they knew' but then they didnt measure up and didnt stay long or were not asked back for the next project. No one is in business to bank on your social rep. They are more interested in the best skill suited to the task. Every place Ive ever cold sent a demo to that saw I was qualified, offered me the position. A strong demo and resume will open doors over 'who you know.'

Ive sent demos to posts requiring experience in an app I didnt know. They loved my demo and wanted to hire me... if I ever learned that app. When the last all-LW outpost, Rhythm and Hues commercial division is looking for LW generalists, they are not interested in a Maya animator no matter how experienced he is. They arent set up for it. When the job post says 'Requirements: 4 years feature film experience in Maya,' that is exactly what they mean.

And no, 'a lot of places' dont use agencies. Ive never worked anywhere that did. Ive joined agencies, and Ive never had any job offers thru them. They are a waste of time when a post on VFXpro floods them with demos.

There are way more Maya jobs out there than LW. And for good reason. End of denial.


So why are you wasting your time hanging out on the LW forum rather than learning the skills to become employable?

StereoMike
07-09-2007, 10:57 AM
I know LW has shortcomings and other packages do perform well and better.
But with my LW I have everything within reach.

I can imagine the stress on the maya people is pretty hard, defending this high ranking piece of software against us low level urinals.

I guess T4D is an experienced Maya user- hats off!
You have clearly won the contest!
Gratulations!

mike

Chris S. (Fez)
07-09-2007, 11:47 AM
Lightwave 9.2's rendering and texturing kicks ***. **** Maya. :)

ivanze
07-09-2007, 12:03 PM
LOL!! Nice Analogy Stereomike.

Cageman
07-09-2007, 01:59 PM
Gratulations!

mike

Haha... LOL... that was fun! :)

MR for Maya was a ***** today... :/

Stooch
07-09-2007, 02:44 PM
wow, i would love to have some of those tools in maya!


Apology accepted! :)

Well, many of the "problems" we have encountered are actually functionality that we were used to from LightWave that are not standard in Maya. :) A couple of examples:

Move Path is heavily used in LightWave, so we had one of the MEL-kings to write a script that gives a similar functionality in Maya.

Camera-animation: The way you rotate and control a Camera in LW when looking through it combined with recording the animation when animating the camera in LW. MEL-kings made a script that gets you about 75% there.

Motionfiles: So far we havn't found a robust way to select a, lets say, joint hierarchy, save out all the motion and load them to a completely different character in the same scene or another scene. Thanks to Lernie Ang, there is an L-script that loads/saves motionfiles enmasse.

However, we have a script that let us load/save animations on joints, but only to the same character. The dumbness of LW treating all kind of motions the same way is a a good thing, because I can easily save a motionfile from a bone and load it onto any other type of item in LW. One can argue what the use of motiofiles in Maya would give, but I have missed them alot in certain situations which means I have something in LW that streamlines alot of the things I do.

Load from Scene: We have really heavy scenes in Maya and countless times I've had to save what I was doing, load a huge scene, create a locator, parentconstrain to whatever, bake keys, save the locator using Save Selection (sweet tool endeed). Reload the scene I was working on, import the exported locator. This is only because I needed a specific object from another scene to work as a reference to where to put whatever I was doing. In recent versions of LW you can select what you want to load from the scene, which is a huge timesaver, esp when you need to do things that requires some kind of visual reference from another scene.

Vertex Cache: Maya 8 got it, Maya 7 doesn't. LW has had it for ages. One of the things I would guess that ruins our MR experience; rigged characters with alot of keyframes and NO WAY to cache the deformations and get rid of the rig. Now it is too late to bring in PointOven... :/ Next time we will probably go for Maya 8.5. :)

Small stuff, yep, but since they add so much to the workflow, I would rule them very important, and LightWave has had them all for ages, natively (except the multimotionfile exporter). :)

Stooch
07-09-2007, 02:45 PM
HOW RUDE CAN YOU POSSIBLY GET?

did i miss a memo on who was in charge of the content of this thread?:thumbsdow

yes you did. you also completely out of context.

Andyjaggy
07-09-2007, 03:01 PM
I prefer not to look at it in terms of Maya users and LW users, but of fellow cat lovers. We are all just people here. With cats. Trying to do 3D.

Stooch
07-09-2007, 03:09 PM
Please, PLEASE, someone from Newtek shut this tripe down. B1tching and bickering. Repetitive attacks, the old "no, we come to praise..not to bury".

Personal insults all over the place.
Tolerance is one thing, but please, stomp this on the head before it gets any uglier...assuming it possible for it to get any uglier that is!

wow thanks for that insightful post.

honestly unless you have real experience with both apps and can compare them through actual use, i implore you to just read. i dont know how much more reasonable I have to be but im not here to sugar coat it. and none of the real pros in this thread want to either. just listen and learn. there is a whole lot of truth going on in this thread, so its sad to see it go the way of a religious debate.

Chris S. (Fez)
07-09-2007, 03:09 PM
I tolerate cats. I love dogs.

Stooch
07-09-2007, 03:21 PM
I guess I might as well throw in my two cents. I don't think there is any real doubt that Maya has more of everything. But this is also a part of the problem for many users. Maya, for many projects is serious overkill. It's like trying to swat a fly with a sledghammer. You spend more time wading through the thousands of options than you do producing something. I'm talking about small to medium size projects with only one or two people..

absolutely not. any experienced user will not "wade" through anything. we are talking about using 3d software not swimming in a pond. your analogy is ridiculous to say the least. if i want to do a simple project, i open up maya and i do it. no wading is needed when you know where everything is and if you configure it to suit your workflow. again its comments like these that mislead a potential user with utterly false trash as i stated before. if maya ultimate is too much for you, then there is always complete and foundation. and as mr rid stated you can always play with a demo.

the original posters question was answered many times with very valid advice. its the people who insist on living in a fantasy world that are misleading and confusing with their unwelcome (and often one sided) opinion about software they dont know.

Cageman
07-09-2007, 03:41 PM
wow, i would love to have some of those tools in maya!

Yep... I'm very impressed by the knowledge of our MEL-kings! They make life so much easier. I have a couple of more things to poke them about.. hehe.. ;)


One of them (the MEL-kings that is) is very, very good at particles and he has done a really amizing thing. A 6 point light shader for particles that gives them a HyperVoxel-look shading, in REALTIME in Mayas viewport. Imagine how much guesswork is shaved off using that tool! :)

Ohh.. and by the way, we still havn't figured out a way to add a Load From Scene functionality in Maya... I hope the MEL-kings will figure something out when we have more time for R&D... :)

But well... coming home from work and start LightWave and hit F9 on a 2 million poly scene, I instantly know why I like LW so much these days... :)

Stooch
07-09-2007, 03:41 PM
It has very few gaping holes in it's feature set. Very handy for a small studio.

holy crap... did you even read this thread?

Cageman
07-09-2007, 04:20 PM
holy crap... did you even read this thread?

Hmm... before I joined Massive I was at another studio, and the fact is that most projects were around 3-6 weeks. A smaller team of LW-artists would have made those projects in half the time but with the same quality. I'm pretty sure about that! None of the projects required any of the deep stuff Maya can do, so they would have benefited from the features in LW that makes it faster for certain types of work. But hey, they told me that LightWave was a CAD-tool that noone use these days! :)

Knowing how to use LightWave in companion with another app has proven to be very beneficial. Using a common vertex cache that can be read and used in a varity of software opens for alot of possibilities and choices. I much rather make sure I have that kind of choice, than lock myself into any corner.

Stooch
07-09-2007, 04:29 PM
i don't buy the "half the time but same quality argument"

the market would be flooded with sick lightwave animations at twice the rate of maya. which we all know is simply not true. If your goals are limited, then choosing a limited tool set is appropriate. that i will not argue with.

I am all for hybrid pipelines. i think lw should and can be included in any decent pipeline, especially for the boutique shops.

Chris S. (Fez)
07-09-2007, 04:44 PM
i don't buy the "half the time but same quality argument"


For a long time I think this was true of Lightwave. For a long time Lightwave was BY FAR the best bang for the buck.

Maya Complete came down in price and the highend was suddenly accessible. But even then this first incarnation of Maya Complete, with its slow, shoddy subds, could not compete with the accessibility and intuitiveness of the Lightwave toolset. Lightwave was the AK-47 of the animation world. Pick it up, point and shoot.

However, ALL the top programs, Maya, Max, XSI have in the past four years become not only cheaper (minus Max) but MUCH more intuitive to use. Meanwhile, key parts of Lightwave have largely stagnated. "MetaNurbs" are now no longer unique to Lightwave. UVmapping...my god, a few years ago I would have killed for the idiot-proof pelt-mapping available now in MAX/Modo and Lightwave (PLG UV).

Now that almost all the packages are as easy to pick up as Lightwave, stability, features and performance have suddenly become a LOT more important. At the moment Lightwave is vulnerable because it is not as deep and flexible as MAX/MAYA/XSI.

Having said that, I think the power and flexibility of 9.2's hybrid layer/nodal Surfacing is apparent.

If this Nodal workflow is truly integrated into the core, then 9.x and 10 are hopefully going to offer unprecedented levels of control and flexibility over ALL aspects of Lightwave.

t4d
07-09-2007, 04:49 PM
I know LW has shortcomings and other packages do perform well and better.
But with my LW I have everything within reach.

I can imagine the stress on the maya people is pretty hard, defending this high ranking piece of software against us low level urinals.

I guess T4D is an experienced Maya user- hats off!
You have clearly won the contest!
Gratulations!

mike

Thanks Mike I have been trying :D

I've been answering all those emails to help improve the size of it,
Been taking the pills, rubing the ointment, put this thing on it and turning the handle, Hitting it with this special hummer and adding all the attachments and dancing around the house.

IT Really WORKS !!! .. LOL =)

jasonwestmas
07-09-2007, 05:03 PM
LOL! Oh man, this is priceless!

Chris S. (Fez)
07-09-2007, 05:53 PM
Thanks Mike I have been trying :D

I've been answering all those emails to help improve the size of it,
Been taking the pills, rubing the ointment, put this thing on it and turning the handle, Hitting it with this special hummer and adding all the attachments and dancing around the house.

IT Really WORKS !!! .. LOL =)

Lol.

StereoMike
07-09-2007, 06:09 PM
I wonder how you can find the time to work? You're a busy man!
:D

Cageman
07-09-2007, 11:15 PM
i don't buy the "half the time but same quality argument"

You weren't there so how can you possibly know?

Stooch
07-09-2007, 11:22 PM
??? professional observation based on experience. what were the relative skills of both teams in comparison? a few generalists that work very well together can make better work at certain jobs, which is not the rule, its the exception. these days its the small team with skilled generalists and a diverse toolset that will be the fastest, and im willing to put money on that. overall i find that there are more maya users out there, this is true. but they tend to be more specialized and overall less capable then an experience generalist. so i think that a large contribution to the speed and quality of the ouput is not because of the tool, its the hands holding it.

Cageman
07-10-2007, 12:00 AM
??? professional observation based on experience.

Every project I've been involved in (and those aren't few) always end up having difficulties that, frankly, should not happen in a 70k app. We have our theories, yes, but we don't have time to investigate what is causing all the trouble. Also, there are broken features in Maya, such as the referencessystem/renderlayers combo. Actually, I had to spend 1 day trying to figure out why a 60.000 polyscene didn't render as it should in MR only to discover that by some reason Primary Visibility didn't work on the objects at all, no matter what I did. I had to re-create the scene from scratch, breaking the referencesystem in order to get things to work. I really hope that I don't need to re-animate anything. Another guy have been spending almost a week trying to figure out why his scene doesn't render. He finaly got it to work... but a week? Come on.... that shouldn't be possible with a 70k app...

There are alot of nodes in Maya that are created and you really need to sit down and "keep the house clean", which takes some time; it can really mess things up further down the pipe if you forget about it. One example of this:

You should delete all history on an object before rigging it, something that is very easy to forget when the object is bouncing between the modeler and animator/rigger. So, you end up with a rigged character that takes 80MB on disk; and takes forever to load and criples the whole pipeline. So, you have to start investigate what went wrong and when. I was able to get that character from 80MB down to 37MB by some tweaks and alot of time. Time that I could have spent doing animation instead of problemsolving.

You really need to have a checklist of dumbass things that you go through for almost every step in the pipeline, and always, always, "keep a clean house". Timeconsuming, yes... it is...

t4d
07-10-2007, 01:40 AM
I wonder how you can find the time to work? You're a busy man!
:D

well you do have nearly twice as many posts here then i do Man :D

I have abit of time Waiting for renders, I freelance so rendering is a pain be it LW or Mental ray,..... so i have time to read all those emails and find the best products and then take pills, pull,, rub, hammer, turn the handle, attach and dance LOL =)

I best not give the product other wise this thread may really get shut down LOL =)

StereoMike
07-10-2007, 03:27 AM
well you do have nearly twice as many posts here then i do Man :D


Yeah, thus I have no time to "read all those emails and find the best products and then take pills, pull,, rub, hammer, turn the handle, attach and dance."

But if I'd known it from the start... writing replies doesn't improve length.
All I get is higher post count.

Doh!

t4d
07-10-2007, 03:55 AM
Yeah, thus I have no time to "read all those emails and find the best products and then take pills, pull,, rub, hammer, turn the handle, attach and dance."

But if I'd known it from the start... writing replies doesn't improve length.
All I get is higher post count.

Doh!

bow to the master :bowdown: it is more worth while Posting here then reading those emails :thumbsup:

Red_Oddity
07-10-2007, 04:25 AM
Oh man, it is so tempting to post in this thread...
must...resist...urges....


I have been working with both pieces of software for quite some time, LW since version 4 as a hobby and 5.6 up to 9.2 professionally, Maya since Maya 1.0 - 3.0 (study) and 4.0 - 8.5 professionally.

Both programs have a LOT of shortcomings and both programs have some great tools.

Just random things i encountered in both programs, good or bad.

- LW modeling toolset is okay, brilliant compared to Maya's modeling toolset.

- Maya's history is a great feature, but prone to a lot of errors (UV destructions, render errors, crashes, slowdowns, etc), as long as you model with the history and don't go back too often to make drastic changes there won't be a problem, as long as you delete your history before animating and rendering.

- Maya has a cool Layer system that does work without too much hassle and bugs these days.

- Maya's render layer system is a cool option, but it is just too bug riddled to be of any serious professional use without a fulltime T.D. to fix all the override bugs.

- Maya's scene referencing is very very handy, though the way it is implemented leaves some things desired (the fact that the reference editor doesn't do what it is supposed to do doesn't help either, especially when combining this system with render layers and overides)

- Maya's way of handling poly normals is, well, awkward, the fact that showing poly normals is hidden away under a layer of menus by default doesn't help.
Just assign a MIA shader on a object that has the normals reversed and behold the hours of hair pulling you'll do trying to figure out why lighting and reflections are f-ed up on your object.

- Maya's render view doesn't do float (worse yet, when rendering float, the conversion to the 8bit viewer gives erronous colours because there appearantly is a bug in the float to int conversion(probably some rounding errors))

- Maya's render view doesnt' have a color picker.

- Maya's render view DOES work very well when you forget the above two nags.

- Maya's animation tools are, well, lightyears ahead of LW's, eventhough Maya does have gimbal locks and Trax editor weirdness.

- Rendering a thing in Maya workspace does NOT mean it will actually render in Maya batch or netwrok dispatching software, which i must add is probably the biggest workflow killer ever. This usually means that one scene often needs multiple rerenders to actually come out the way you want it to. This happens more often than not.

- Maya's lack of small simple tools and shortcuts. What?, no shortcuts for switching camera views or opening up often used panels like the Hypershade and GraphEditor.

- Maya MEL (and now Python aswell), well, this really is the bread and butter of Maya, period. MEL (and Python) is just simply the reason why every large corporation has tied this into the pipeline.

- Maya's expression system is brilliant, period, the fact that you tie it on anything anywhere and allows MEL commandos aswell makes this a very very cool toy (professional and just screwing around type of tool)

- Maya's nodes are well, a bit of a double edges sword, it allows for some very very complex setups that are other wise impossible to do with LW (period), it is also incredibly prone to errors (human and by Maya's bugs). It means you can setup complex scenes very fast, it also means, you will spend 3/4th of the time spend on a scene cleaning it up and debuggin it.

- LW's renderer is one of the best out of the box, and it is climbing up the quality ladder again since version 9.2 (i'm saying one of the best, since Maya, Max and XSI just come standard with MR and that's quite a capable renderer (albeit slow when you need serious quality))

- LW's renderer doesn't need a ridiculous amount of debugging to actually get it rendering what you want, LW's renderer is pretty much a WYSIWYG renderer.

- LW easily outputs different shading buffers, something which is a big problem with Maya (it doesn't do that without 3rd party plugins like MegaTK)

- LW has no renderlayers, a big big mis in my book.

- LW has no scene referencing, another big loss, since import from scene still leaves things to be desired to make it actually usefull in a larger pipeline.

- LW's scene format is clean, clear and is easy to write parsers for, Maya's .ma ascii file format is very very messy on first glance and since it basically is a large collection of MEL commands that build the scene (and thus can split building a model and animation over multiple MEL commands) makes it pretty difficult to parse.

- LW's overall toolset and interface are a complete f-ing garbage pile, there's often no clear thought gone into tool use and interface.
for example :
Sliders, nice tool, but you actually need to switch to the sliders tool to be able to use the sliders?

LW's expressions, well, even with Relativity it remains a mess, breaks waaay to easy and doesn't offer a clean expression editor and debuging like Maya's expression eninge does.

- LW's undo system....sigh...come on guys it's 2007, it's embarrasing, it really needs a complete overhaul to work like a global construction history or undo stack that stores EVERY panel, plugins and interface element (just switching from Graph editor to Layout or creating a key via requester breaks the undo)

- LW's animation tools are a pain in the butt, unreliable and very prone to IK shakes and jiggles and becomes very very slow really fast with complex setups.

- LW has FPrime, i shouldn't really be allowed to mention this as it isn't include by default, but when you do a lot of lighting it is an indispensable tool, and well worth the money, though it brings the amount you pay for the complete software package very close to Maya Complete.

- Particle systems in LW are easily accessible and allow for quick effects, but don't allow expression nor third party developers to play with particle data so more complex setups and effects that are possible in Maya are out of reach.

- Support, now, when you are a small company, Autodesk's support is just criminal compared to Newtek's.
Newtek doesn't require you to pay between 150 and 250 euro's for a single support call (Autodesk does), though Autodesk does promise to fix your problem for that amount of money (they often even write special patches just for you, but this probably means another fee, i'm not sure about that though, so correct me if i'm wrong.



There's so much more, niggles and nags in both software packages, but in the end it just comes down to what you really need and what your preferences are and how deep your pockets are and how much time you are willing to spend on a scene.

jin choung
07-10-2007, 04:38 AM
wow.

great post r.o.

agree with almost everything though the poly normals stuff doesn't bug me as much... all little niggling, hiding stuff i just break out into the shelf.

i would say the ability to ctrl-shft-alt add any menu item into a shelf is brilliant. as is the ability to TEAR OFF menus so they don't disappear (which makes the many nested items less galling).

the render bugginess in maya has nearly destroyed many a fragile lcd monitor as my fist veers into the back wall at the last minute.

agree also that history and referencing are kinda broke in maya and can result in disaster if you RELY on them.

regarding referencing in lw, it effectively references models and for better or worse, you can setup a great deal of "rigging" in modeler. can make it so that if one person changes a model, it gets reflected in all your scenes.

i would also say that maya's infrastructure is a strong point. unified node system, gui riding on top of mel, extreme programmability/scriptability very easily.

lw has a lot less MYSTERIOUS bugs. if something doesn't work, it doesn't work reliably.... in maya, it can be a true enigma.

and as i've always said, in many ways, lw is extremely PRIMITIVE and at times MUCH LOWER LEVEL in operation than maya (unexpectedly so)... especially in modeling. but in there being less abstraction, you really get to see how the geometry is getting pulled around.

jin

p.s. it is a crime that lw calls what it has "set driven key"... i know set driven key. set driven key is a friend of mine. and you sir are no set driven key.

jin choung
07-10-2007, 04:45 AM
oh, and the fact that after effects reads maya camera and null info. absolute heaven when you're doing a promo and you just need to do lots of versions of footage playing on a billboard.

and no, i do NOT count that thingy where you have to copy crap into and out of notepad of all things!

jin

cresshead
07-10-2007, 05:54 AM
nice read red oddity...actual 'details' than just a vague slagging off we get from other artists!

newtek staff have been low key of late...and siggraph is nr upon us...
could we be getting a sneek peek soon of new tools at siggraph?

creativecontrol
07-10-2007, 11:29 AM
Thanks Red_Oddity! That's an awsome comparison. I'm curious about volume rendering. How does the Maya system campare to hypervoxels, quality, options and render time?

tischbein3
07-10-2007, 12:35 PM
that's the most Painfull thing,.. I saw the load scene panel shown for lw 9 and was like YES they finally done it,...


So now they did. So why complain ?
In fact they stated more than once: "They will adress things but they need time", ok it took a few months longer.



BUT at the moment LW is only just above truespace in the 3D market ( features and workflow ) and is behide MAX, Maya, C4D, XSI , and even blender ( and modo and messiah in those areas )

Blenders Animation System is better than LW's ?!?

Red_Oddity
07-10-2007, 03:42 PM
Thanks Red_Oddity! That's an awsome comparison. I'm curious about volume rendering. How does the Maya system campare to hypervoxels, quality, options and render time?

Well, out of the box Maya doesn't have a Volumetric renderer like a LW artist would understand (read Hypervoxels), just creating some particles and than slapping a volumtric renderer on each particle simply doesn't exist.

There are however numerous/different approaches in Maya,

-You can use your particle data to drive the voxels inside a fluid grid to render volumes/fluids (really cool, and when using MR, fluids render just insanely fast)
-You can hack together a hypervoxel like system using partivolumes and a transmat object (but this requires a lot of work)
-You can buy Overburn (basically Hypervoxels, but insanely fast (which shows how outdated the HV 3 code really is), something that renders in 10 minutes in LW basically render in 10 seconds in Maya using Overburn, it also gives a lot of control over rendering quality)
-You can fake a hypervoxel sprite mode like system using Sprites or instancing geomitry (when making smoke for example you can have your particle system spawn normal mapped sprites/planes, which is really cool)
-You can,even with expressions and MEL, write a particle system that actually uses a light to 'cast' shadows inside a particle volume (albeit very very slow, a compiled dll plugins does this near realtime with 10000+ particles)

All the above we tested and used to some extend(some are R&D projects others are actually used in production), but it proofs that Maya is a very very capable piece of software, but it also shows it's more of a 3D engine SDK with some tools on top for serious studios who have the resources and personel to actually build whatever is needed on top of the basis put down by Alias/Autodesk.


Also, i hope my posts don't come off as a punch in the proverbial LW stomache.
I've been really surprised what the Newtek has done with the 9 cycle so far, it's really positive, and i happily download every OB to see what they have fixed and upgraded this time.
Also, i'm still amazed sometimes at, eventhough it feels somewhat oldskool, how fast, easy and reliable some things just go in LW.

Sometimes when working with Maya (well, very often really since Maya 8 - 8.5) eventhough so much is possible and it has these insanely complex and advanced tools i feel i'm taking ten steps back as an artist, as a lot of simple things just are made needlessly complex, and not just because of unresolved or newly introduced bugs and weird behaviours.

t4d
07-10-2007, 07:58 PM
So now they did. So why complain ?
In fact they stated more than once: "They will adress things but they need time", ok it took a few months longer.

selection sets still do not import..( a very important Features )
Lock items Now come in, Which is good :thumbsup: and was added in 9.2
but it was asked for alot longer then afew months ..... ( the months statement is the reason i posted,. That is just Silly ..Months !! come on LOL :D )



Blenders Animation System is better than LW's ?!?

it is, the IK is better and the way you can reference channels is also better.
and it has contrains, weights and Morphs have you seen elephant dream (http://orange.blender.org/download) ??

BUT the interface takes far too much to learn, I have rigged a charcter in it,. But When i have other tools it's hard to spend time on Blender to get up to speed,..
( mind you I know the liquid system pretty well :thumbsup: )

Mr Rid
07-11-2007, 02:55 AM
Anyone notice the 'LIGHTWAVE VS MAYA' discussion on Autodesk's forum?
Awfully boring.
http://discussion.autodesk.com/adskcsp/thread.jspa?messageID=5287215

This is nice and constructive, 'HOW TO IMPROVE LIGHTWAVE' on the CGsociety,
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=5&t=175449

Last post was 15 months ago. Wonder if Newtek listened (?).
(I'll guess 'no.')

sammael
07-11-2007, 03:12 AM
Anyone notice the 'LIGHTWAVE VS MAYA' discussion on Autodesk's forum?
Awfully boring.
http://discussion.autodesk.com/adskcsp/thread.jspa?messageID=5287215

This is nice and constructive, 'HOW TO IMPROVE LIGHTWAVE' on the CGsociety,
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=5&t=175449

Last post was 15 months ago. Wonder if Newtek listened (?).
(I'll guess 'no.')

Actually at a brief glimpse of that cgsociety therad, there are a few thing there that have been covered mainly in the rendering department.

Could it be a staff problem like someone else mentioned, how many people do work on LW development anyway?? perhaps they should triple it for a time, im sure the money would be returned once LW became more popular due to improved functionality. Thats the problem realy, things just dont happen fast enough. I would be happy to pay more for LW if it had more to offer, even if the price doubled it would still be a lot cheaper than Maya or XSI.

sammael
07-11-2007, 03:21 AM
It seems like that when new features are implimented they are then forgotten about for the next few releases until they are completely outdated, most or all aspects of the program need to be improved upon each release. If it costs a lot more I just dont care, it would be nice if LW became renouned for its advanced features and robust quality instead of its cheap price.

sammael
07-11-2007, 03:22 AM
Look at the about box, under engineering :)

Hmmm so 12... that explains a lot I guess.

toby
07-11-2007, 03:25 AM
This is nice and constructive, 'HOW TO IMPROVE LIGHTWAVE' on the CGsociety,
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=5&t=175449

Last post was 15 months ago
eh, we have that discussion every week. :^P

I'd say they need another 50 programmers to compete with Autodesk, at an average of six figures each, that's only, let's see... an extra 5 million dollars per year...

sammael
07-11-2007, 03:28 AM
I'd say they need another 50 programmers to compete with Autodesk, at an average of six figures each, that's only, let's see... an extra 5 million dollars per year...

So blow the budget take out a loan!, sometimes running a business means taking risks. If they go bankrupt at least we know they tried :)

Matt Buxton
07-11-2007, 03:58 AM
silo for the win.... i mean this isnt a serious thread is it.

JensD
07-11-2007, 04:19 AM
Hmmm so 12... that explains a lot I guess.

I count 17. I believe Maxon employs about 12 coders and look how fast they develop C4D.

So i guess, it must be possible for NewTek to catch up.:)

sammael
07-11-2007, 04:59 AM
Your right, anyway development is too slow and things often get forgotten about. Faster, faster!!

lesterfoster
07-11-2007, 05:40 AM
Found this on YouTube. Just thought some would like to see a video that compares LW & Maya.

RIG CONTROLLERS FOR MAYA & LIGHTWAVE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxVuJ7Dryaw&NR=1)

sammael
07-11-2007, 06:09 AM
Still the fact of the matter is that the CA tools are barely better than they were in LW 5.6 that's 9 years ago. Modeler is almost the same as v7, the whole program just looks old and dated, the GUI layout is a mess. I apperciate that there are vague promises and rumours floating around that these things might be fixed but it would be nice if NT would be a bit more forthcoming with specific info about the development plan.
Theres still no instancing for gods sake! thats a complaint I have had for the past few years. Elements of objects don't have their own axis! Modeler is becoming a bloated mess with advanced modeling tools only available via 3rd party. I could rant on and on but I wont. I mean you wait 3 - 6 month spans for an update year after year only to find that the same problems have not been fixed.

sammael
07-11-2007, 06:31 AM
Yep I understand that but after years and years of no action I think one should be allowed to be a bit sceptical, dont get me wrong so far the 9x improvements have been nice but its only the tip of the iceberg and thats what it has felt like with every release since god knows when (I only started in v7.5 after being introduced to LW 5.6 as part of a course). It kinda feels like hanging on to a sinking ship at times, theres just so much stuff that is easy to do in many other apps but in LW you have to walk through hoops, not to mention the fundamentally flawed aspects of the program.
On the other hand some aspects of LW are great but still...

sammael
07-11-2007, 06:52 AM
I certainly hope your right and from what we have seen so far you may well be, time will tell... damn time.

mattclary
07-11-2007, 06:57 AM
Yep I understand that but after years and years of no action I think one should be allowed to be a bit sceptical, dont get me wrong so far the 9x improvements have been nice but its only the tip of the iceberg and thats what it has felt like with every release since god knows when (I only started in v7.5 after being introduced to LW 5.6 as part of a course).

Maybe the progress you have seen is not up to your satisfaction, but there has not been "no action".



It kinda feels like hanging on to a sinking ship at times, theres just so much stuff that is easy to do in many other apps but in LW you have to walk through hoops, not to mention the fundamentally flawed aspects of the program.
On the other hand some aspects of LW are great but still...

So switch apps. You have used these other apps obviously, since you know it is easier to use them, so switch. No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to use LightWave.

theo
07-11-2007, 06:59 AM
I actually fully agree with you Sammael :) Reality is just very different. :(

But it's not lack of effort or will that's slowing down progress, it's simply that they have a cubic arseload of old things to fix that are sometimes deeply rooted in the core and cross dependent on a whole boat load of stuff.

The current development team are not the ones responsible for the state of LightWave. They are ones doing their best to actually fix the bloody thing.

Obviously, this is an assumption on your part Neverko.

But, I am comfortable assuming the same so due to the fact that, at the moment, LW is working well as a business partner I fully intend on giving the Dev team at least two more years before I even think about a major change.

I can see my business slowly shifting into different arenas and I need to work with software that is capable, flexible and powerful enough to serve as a solution within the sphere of current and evolving trends.

Newtek does need to create more of a dominance effect. The renderer helps a lot but I would like to see more out of Newtek in this regard.

colkai
07-11-2007, 07:09 AM
I'm a big fan of LW and pretty much everyone knows it.
However, make no mistake, how the LW9.X cycle unfolds and what it finally contains it very important to me.
After all, my hobby budget is VERY limited, so if I don't feel the money can be justified for the improvement, it will prevent me pursing any other LW upgrades.

For now, I am in wait and see mode, as a long time developer myself, I know this sort of thing just doesn't happen overnight. I also am painfully aware on a personal level just how much of a headache it is "inheriting" other peoples code and trying to improve and re-write it whilst keeping the durned thing working.

So whilst I may cut some slack in the time area, I'm still wanting a lot more from LW before I can really say it's shaken off the stigma from previous versions.

theo
07-11-2007, 07:15 AM
So whilst I may cut some slack in the time area, I'm still wanting a lot more from LW before I can really say it's shaken off the stigma from previous versions.

That is a good way to put it, Colkai.

sammael
07-11-2007, 07:23 AM
Maybe the progress you have seen is not up to your satisfaction, but there has not been "no action".



So switch apps. You have used these other apps obviously, since you know it is easier to use them, so switch. No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to use LightWave.

I never meant to imply that there has been no action but you have to admit its frustratingly slow... unless your one of those pods that someone mentioned? I mean I didnt exactly completely sh!t can LW did I? I just voiced my frustration which occasionally becomes a bit hard to hold back.

Yes I have used other apps and yes there are features that make certain things easier and features that are MUCH more advanced, CA in just about every other app for example. But no I dont want to switch because I still prefer LW over anything else I have tried, I have invested years in learning it and still dont even know half of it. I know enough to see what it is lacking though & I cant afford anything else anyway.

No need to get upset about it, if you open your eyes its not hard to work out that LW needs a major overhaul.

sammael
07-11-2007, 07:31 AM
I'm a big fan of LW and pretty much everyone knows it.
However, make no mistake, how the LW9.X cycle unfolds and what it finally contains it very important to me.
After all, my hobby budget is VERY limited, so if I don't feel the money can be justified for the improvement, it will prevent me pursing any other LW upgrades.

So whilst I may cut some slack in the time area, I'm still wanting a lot more from LW before I can really say it's shaken off the stigma from previous versions.

Yes well put colkai, it seems you are in a similar position as me, this is exactly how I feel as well, im a big fan of LW and no one should think otherwise but where do you draw the line? I cant afford to keep paying for something that gets further and further behind and at the same time used less and less for production, more and more lacking in standard features. 9x is the decider for me as well.

mattclary
07-11-2007, 07:36 AM
No need to get upset about it, if you open your eyes its not hard to work out that LW needs a major overhaul.

I'm not upset, just offering you a solution to your unhappiness.

I don't deny LW has it's issues, but I think NewTek is doing the best they can with MUCH more limited resources than Autodesk or Softimage.

mattclary
07-11-2007, 07:40 AM
I'm a big fan of LW and pretty much everyone knows it.
However, make no mistake, how the LW9.X cycle unfolds and what it finally contains it very important to me.
After all, my hobby budget is VERY limited, so if I don't feel the money can be justified for the improvement, it will prevent me pursing any other LW upgrades.

For now, I am in wait and see mode, as a long time developer myself, I know this sort of thing just doesn't happen overnight. I also am painfully aware on a personal level just how much of a headache it is "inheriting" other peoples code and trying to improve and re-write it whilst keeping the durned thing working.

So whilst I may cut some slack in the time area, I'm still wanting a lot more from LW before I can really say it's shaken off the stigma from previous versions.

Agreed.

sammael
07-11-2007, 07:42 AM
I'm not upset, just offering you a solution to your unhappiness.

I don't deny LW has it's issues, but I think NewTek is doing the best they can with MUCH more limited resources than Autodesk or Softimage.

They wouldnt have such limited resources if LW was a stronger contender in the 3D industry... something else to think about.

mattclary
07-11-2007, 07:44 AM
One can be sceptical and even complain a lot without having to get that old "switch app" thrown in the face.

Has it occurred to you that there is a reason it is old? Because it has to be repeated so often.

We all get sick of incessant whining about LightWave's shortcomings.

We know it has shortcomings. NewTek knows we know about it's shortcomings.

If you think NewTek's behavior needs to be modified, the lack of your upgrade dollar will speak louder to them than whiny posts on this forum.

mattclary
07-11-2007, 07:49 AM
They wouldnt have such limited resources if LW was a stronger contender in the 3D industry... something else to think about.

What, in your opinion, would make them a stronger contender in the industry?

mattclary
07-11-2007, 08:03 AM
I'd rather tell them what they can improve AND give them my upgrade money.

Shutting up and cutting the funds doesn't help anyone. I actually like LightWave and that's why I want it to improve. So I can continue to feel satisfied using it.

I don't understand your approach.

Do you really think NewTek is unaware that character animation doesn't work so hot?

If something is broken, or a feature is needed, we can go here (http://www.newtek.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=27) or report the bug to support.

mattclary
07-11-2007, 08:13 AM
Did I mention character animation anywhere? Have I ever made one post lamenting character animation or lack there of? No!

I don't animate more than basic stuff - not everyone needs great character animation tools. But there's more to the list of things to improve than CA... a lot more!

I just used that as an example, since it is a pretty common desire. Have you submitted your desires to NewTek via support or feature requests?

sammael
07-11-2007, 08:14 AM
What, in your opinion, would make them a stronger contender in the industry?

It is my opinion that an up to date feature set and the implimentation of various features/changes that users have been crying out for for the past few years would greatly increase LW's standing in the industry. It was very popular years ago and I dont see why it cant be again in the future. If LW was considered to be more in line with the industry standard I think its safe to say that more people would be interested in using it. LW studios would start springing up again as opposed to slowly declining. This would bring in more money for NT and allow them to concentrate on keeping LW up to date. If it falls further and further behind NT will never have the resources to keep LW up to date.
Thats the way the world works.



I'd rather tell them what they can improve AND give them my upgrade money.

Shutting up and cutting the funds doesn't help anyone. I actually like LightWave and that's why I want it to improve. So I can continue to feel satisfied using it.

I don't understand your approach.


I agree neverko theres no point sitting here twiddling our thumbs and hoping for the best.

mattclary
07-11-2007, 08:19 AM
A lot :)

So they know then...

sammael
07-11-2007, 08:19 AM
I just used that as an example, since it is a pretty common desire. Have you submitted your desires to NewTek via support or feature requests?

Is it just me or did anyone else notice that only about 1% of feature requests are implimented?
Funny how the same ones keep popping up year after year.

sammael
07-11-2007, 08:26 AM
lol

mattclary
07-11-2007, 08:29 AM
It is my opinion that an up to date feature set and the implimentation of various features/changes that users have been crying out for for the past few years would greatly increase LW's standing in the industry.


You do realize that when I say "limited resources" that is a euphemism for "not enough people", right?

Do you think LW developers sit around playing solitaire all day?

Do you think NewTek is snorting all their money up their nose because it is more fun than hiring skilled developers?

NewTek is a small company with less money and people than Autodesk. To build truly state of the art software requires people and money. LightWave will probably never be state of the art again. I hate to break it to you, but it's true.

If you need state of the art, you are using the wrong product.

Now, on the other hand, if you want a freaking awesome bang for the buck product that can kicks a55 in the right hands, that is accessible to pretty much anybody who is remotely interested in 3D, then, my friend, you have come to the right place. :thumbsup:

mattclary
07-11-2007, 08:30 AM
Is it just me or did anyone else notice that only about 1% of feature requests are implimented?
Funny how the same ones keep popping up year after year.

See my last post, re: solitaire and blow

sammael
07-11-2007, 08:37 AM
See my last post, re: solitaire and blow
Huh whats that supposed to mean? define blow
I did not mention state of the art, more up to date which is not a bad request I wouldnt have thought.

sammael
07-11-2007, 08:38 AM
Any limited resources are relative to the success of a company.

mattclary
07-11-2007, 08:44 AM
Huh whats that supposed to mean? define blow
I did not mention state of the art, more up to date which is not a bad request I wouldnt have thought.


blow=cocaine

When talking about snorting money up ones nose, it alludes that you are wasting all your money on coke or other drugs.