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View Full Version : Making Game Designers Happy.



Eldorado
06-21-2007, 12:25 PM
So as we all know Lightwave has great potential for making photo realistic games(after all it already does photo realistic images). So why don't gamers use lightwave more exclusively we all ask? Its pretty simple. Modeling Humans in Lightwave is one of the toughest things for us using Lightwave comparing it to Maya or 3ds Max. After you get all of that, and after that game rigs are a pain for some. So in order to make LW better we have to work on making modeling characters easier. I propose a separate and third program in addition to layout and modeler. Something that is designed specifically for making organic objects. Lets say something.

Bytehawk
06-21-2007, 01:24 PM
no thank you.

there's plenty of 3rd party plugins or programs already catering for the organic modeler.

If it comes to LW it should at least be integrated in the 2 programs we have now.

Mr Maze
06-21-2007, 01:41 PM
erm... doesn't hub make it 3? :)

Bytehawk
06-21-2007, 01:55 PM
yep, forgot about that blighter :)

mattclary
06-21-2007, 01:58 PM
So as we all know Lightwave has great potential for making photo realistic games(after all it already does photo realistic images). So why don't gamers use lightwave more exclusively we all ask? Its pretty simple. Modeling Humans in Lightwave is one of the toughest things for us using Lightwave comparing it to Maya or 3ds Max. After you get all of that, and after that game rigs are a pain for some. So in order to make LW better we have to work on making modeling characters easier. I propose a separate and third program in addition to layout and modeler. Something that is designed specifically for making organic objects. Lets say something.


Ooooooorrrrrr, you could come up with some specific ideas on how to improve LightWave's tools and suggest those to NewTek.

*Pete*
06-21-2007, 02:35 PM
well....you know, a human modelling module.

with buttons as "make hand" and "make head"...and the "make monster" button.

Bytehawk
06-21-2007, 02:44 PM
LOL

and a 'make cool kitty' button whilst you're at it

tonybliss
06-21-2007, 02:48 PM
you guys are butchers, monsters .... lol
the whole lot of ya

StereoMike
06-21-2007, 03:00 PM
Some of the most impressive renderings of women were done in LW (at least these pics impressed me).
As I see it, Modeler isn't the weak spot.
Funny you feel that way.
Also funny to think of a third app just to do humans /organic shapes.
What comes next? A dedicated app for particles, one for physics, a lighting studio and one for making toenails?
;)

mike

Mipmap
06-21-2007, 03:05 PM
It isn't the actual process of making a model that is the problem. I think some of these things would be more in line with helping game developers:


Way Character Animation Tools (See Hash Animation Master)
More sophisticated tools for baking normal map information
Better UV mapping tools
More advanced tools for surface baking in general
Faster and better Skytracer
PRESETS


There needs to be a reason for people to want to animate their game characters in Lightwave.

Skytracer is cool, but it renders way too slow and it could use some more features and better starter presets to get people on the way to making better skys in a faster amount of time. Something to add stars for night skys wouldn't hurt either.

For UV Mapping tools, see 3D Max, which is what most game companies seem to be forcing us to want to use now.

Presets would be nice too. No more of these 1985 presets. Presets can and never will do all the work for us but it would be nice to be able to choose from some presets, especially ones that are demoed in scenes with lighting setups that are very realistic looking. We don't usually have the luxury of being able to sit down a few months and really learn every in and out of a new feature and make something like a realistic baked texture and normal map of a gun or world object that needs to be done in far less time than it would take to totally learn everything their is to know about the tool.

Capt Lightwave
06-21-2007, 03:16 PM
I wish there was a module to LightWave that would let us create eagles....yeah, eagles and...and...barrels....that'd be cool....but then again, I'm an "idiot" ;)

Qexit
06-21-2007, 03:22 PM
well....you know, a human modelling module.

with buttons as "make hand" and "make head"...and the "make monster" button.That's already been done. I still have my old 'Creature Creator Pro' CD kicking around somewhere. The FXRealm site is still online, but I don't think any work has been done on the product since 2003 :thumbsdow

http://www.fxrealm.com/index.shtml.htm

cresshead
06-21-2007, 03:32 PM
i want newtek to stick with their plan to pull in modeler inside layout...but also keep ''modeler'' for those occassions then it's preferabel just to 'model'...then we can model/rig/test deforms all in one place and have feedback as we work.

Eldorado
06-21-2007, 07:48 PM
True combining layout with modeler is what they've been doing and adding better features should come later.

jameswillmott
06-21-2007, 07:52 PM
well....you know, a human modelling module.

with buttons as "make hand" and "make head"...and the "make monster" button.

Can we get a "Make it Better" button too?

Mipmap
06-25-2007, 03:48 PM
Are there any real thoughts?

Its kind of irritating that this kind of discussion comes up and a single comment couldn't just be ignored when it should have been obvious that he is apparently extremely new to 3D.

These were my suggestions:


Way Character Animation Tools (See Hash Animation Master)
More sophisticated tools for baking
Better UV mapping tools
More advanced tools for surface baking in general
Faster and better Skytracer
PRESETS


In general the need for better character animation support is a lot of what hurts us from being able to us it in games development because its hard when most others use 3D Studio Max to try to justify Lightwave when there are basic necessary things that it doesn't do well.

Better UV mapping tools and better baking would help with general art, especially environmental art.

Skytracer is a neat tool in Lightwave. I've made some pretty decent skies with it baked onto a skybox. My main reason for never using it anywhere as often as I would like to are the extremely slow render speeds.

adamredwoods
06-26-2007, 10:31 AM
I know UV mapping is in need of an overhaul, but I feel the future pointing towards painting directly on the mesh. So by the time good UV tools come around, we'll be wanting more.

I don't know this from experience, but doesn't LW9+ have a new camera bake to improve your surface baking needs? Or is there something else that needs attention?

And also, the "Make it Better" button I thought was installed in Windows Vista already... :) sorry, couldn't help myself.

mattclary
06-26-2007, 12:22 PM
Are there any real thoughts?

Its kind of irritating that this kind of discussion comes up and a single comment couldn't just be ignored when it should have been obvious that he is apparently extremely new to 3D.


Yes, it seemed apparent to me. But he seemed comfortable enough with 3D to have an opinion on needing a third module to get what he wants done. None of the suggestions you have made are new ones, as far as I can tell.

I think we are making jokes because we know these shortcomings exist and have been hashed to death.

Maybe NewTek should buy Poser? :devil:

Mipmap
06-26-2007, 01:29 PM
Meh don't get me started on Poser. :D

Although I figured him to be new since every time Ive seen someone suggest a "make something" button that has been the case. Although on that subject I hope if we get real animation character animation tools that they will include a production quality biped. I figure if they aren't able to make one themselves then the character animation tools aren't done yet, and then once they have they may as well integrate it into the program.

I think part of my frustration is that every time we get a new good feature, it will have some genuine uses but then it will be a half baked realization where there are other uses for a tool that should have been obvious, but weren't done. I would rather get fewer tools that are full featured than many tools that are feel half done and often disappoint people that try to really utilize them.

My current problem with that is the surface baking camera is cool and has some good uses for games such as making a baked sky environment, however the other obvious use would be to use it for completely baking an object as seen in a normal render including all reflections and specular lighting baked into an object as they are seen from the view of the camera's position to its own UV textures.

My attempts so far seem to show that the tool seems to already have what it takes to get this done, based on the renders that had 30% of the object show up correctly. As usual though it appears that if I want to make a tool do a very related function that would benefit me, if it is even possible it will probably require a ton of hoop jumping. That is unless I am just completely missing something.

To see my progress here is my thread about it:
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=561054

Mipmap
06-26-2007, 01:37 PM
(double post)

particledecay
09-28-2007, 05:29 PM
UV Tiling, UV Tiling! Gimme gimme gimme.

T-Light
09-28-2007, 08:52 PM
particledecay-

UV Tiling, UV Tiling! Gimme gimme gimme.
How do you mean? We've had UV tiling for years.

I'd like Better weightmapping tools (in layout). Also more export options, preferably built in, that way Newtek keeps them updated when there's a change to the core code.

robdorney
09-29-2007, 01:23 PM
I think Chunder's collection of suggestions was actually a pretty informed start, so thanks for them! Aside from that, two consistent bugbears are;

1) Baking down anims is fraught with inconsistency and 20 ways of doing what *should* be a straightforward step for the user. On the outside it looks simple. Take all the motion/IK/dynamics etc that get applied to bones, and at the *LAST* step, in the heirarchy order, stamp down those position and rotations..... adding to this a switch to `disable/remove` all the IK and modifiers post bake (leaving with with a heirarchy-of-bones-only animation) would be ideal.

2) Vertex baking in LW.... the GL is a bit broken here I think, because it doesn't recognise falloffs.... my last recollection is that this then makes baking colour down to verts equally as broken. (though I've given up with this one)

I know its a utopia to expect perfect software that is the *best* for everyones needs, but LW is the fastest to work with of the bunch at the moment, certainly for waht we're doing. I just need it to stop banking my head against the keys every now and then! =)

Kuzey
09-29-2007, 02:05 PM
Can we get a "Make it Better" button too?

Actually, if LScript was recordable in Modeler... then you could pretty much make your own buttons for say hands, feet etc. and reuse them on other characters.

:hey:

Kuzey

Steamthrower
10-01-2007, 09:27 PM
I use Lightwave for game modeling, but only for mechanical type stuff. I am currently modeling a capital ship for a game studio. Fun stuff. And Lightwave is fully competent for it, especially when I hit the "Make Rocket Blast" button.