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sammael
06-21-2007, 03:25 AM
We are having one lighting challenge and one modeling and surfacing challenge.
You can vote for one of the lighting options and one of the modeling/surfacing options.

*Pete*
06-21-2007, 04:29 AM
Lighting for indoor scene is far more fun and intresting than an outdoor scene, but i personally feel that my outdoor lighting skills need improvement...actually, same goes for all but a very very few people on these forums ;)


one vote for modelling humans...must be Oddity ;) ...or you, Sammael heheh

starbase1
06-21-2007, 04:48 AM
Well, I've been meaning to take a serious crack at modelling a Soviet N-1 moon rocket for ages, so I think I'll be doing that whatever the challenge poll says!
:D

For the indoor stuff, I dopn't think people shiould be constrained b a provided model - but a provided one would be handy for people who don't want to do the modelling side - just get plenty of nooks and crannies and bits of furniture, so the indirect lighting has some work to do!

Is there anything in the LW supplied content that would make a handy basis for a scene?

Nick

Iain
06-21-2007, 05:16 AM
I think the whole thing is lacking a little focus. I don't really see the point of a 'model any old spaceship you like' or 'model and render any interior or exterior you like' challenge.
That, to me, is pretty much life as normal on a WIP forum.

If there is no model/scene provided or strict parameters to follow you can't compare your own approach, workflow and ability with others' very easily and see where you need to improve.

starbase1
06-21-2007, 05:34 AM
I think the whole thing is lacking a little focus. I don't really see the point of a 'model any old spaceship you like' or 'model and render any interior or exterior you like' challenge.
That, to me, is pretty much life as normal on a WIP forum.

If there is no model/scene provided or strict parameters to follow you can't compare your own approach, workflow and ability with others' very easily and see where you need to improve.

I must admit I was thinking the next polls would have more specific options... And that it would be good to wait for the first poll to close in a day or two...

In terms of depth or complexity, I have changed my mind somewhat - I see no need to specify as people can take it as far as they wish... The lighting thing sounds pretty general, and I think can work well.

Maybe for something like spaceships, (to choose my favourite example!), there could be a focus on techniques? By that I mean things like:


Using a sequence of bevels to make the tubular bits
Making inlayed panels
Running tubing over the surface
Panelling,
Dirtying down for realism.


I also think that whatever challenges are chosen it would make a lot of sense to have a challenge leader, who would encourage people, provide a bit of direction, and so forth.

I'm sure you could come up with similar goal / skill lists for the others too. So for lighting a room you might have things like


Efficiency on terms of render time.
Use of light temperature / colour to convey mood.
Shadow realism.


Nick

flakester
06-21-2007, 05:34 AM
:agree:

Pre-made scenes all the way for lighting stuff.

With the modelling side, it's kind of difficult to model a pre-made model.... if you know what I mean! But surfacing a pre-made model would not be a bad thing.

Just hope I have the time to take part in some of these challenges.

flakester.

ANS
06-21-2007, 06:45 AM
I vote for spaceship ;) because i like them! they're almost like kittens ;)

sammael
06-21-2007, 07:49 AM
I think the whole thing is lacking a little focus. I don't really see the point of a 'model any old spaceship you like' or 'model and render any interior or exterior you like' challenge.
That, to me, is pretty much life as normal on a WIP forum.

If there is no model/scene provided or strict parameters to follow you can't compare your own approach, workflow and ability with others' very easily and see where you need to improve.

I agree we need to flesh it out but at least we can establish what the challenges will be first.
Personally I think it would be nice to keep it fairly open for interpritation at least for the modeling challenge so more people are interested in participating. Some strict rules and a timeframe are a must but I dont think it would be wise to narrow the topic down too much.

I voted for spaceships as well because I have never made one, I rarely make anything thats not organic. Also it seems sort of appropriate that the first LW challenge has something to do with spaceships for some reason.
As for lighting I voted outdoor because this is something I realy need to work on, I would be happy with either mind you.

sammael
06-21-2007, 08:09 AM
Post any ideas for the general rules here, hopefully within a few days we can have the specific guidlines set out to a point where most people are happy.

CMT
06-21-2007, 08:19 AM
If you're doing a spacecraft challenge, then it should be narrowed down to one or two types of spacecraft. Destroyer type, fighter, carrier, freighter, Doomsday weapon (like Death Stars), or even an organic based craft. Something more focused so that better comparisons could be made.

sammael
06-21-2007, 08:27 AM
If you're doing a spacecraft challenge, then it should be narrowed down to one or two types of spacecraft. Destroyer type, fighter, carrier, freighter, Doomsday weapon (like Death Stars), or even an organic based craft. Something more focused so that better comparisons could be made.
I think that goes for everything model/texture based, I like Nick's idea of having a moderator, that way they can make the final decision for the exact guidelines for the challenge and the rest of us will just have to put up with it. Otherwise there are just too many opinions.
I think that person would have to either be an experienced and respected member of this community or someone from NT, any voulenteers?

Iain
06-21-2007, 08:30 AM
Agreed :)

I'm leaning towards a destroyer class ship. Larger than a fighter and not as huge a task as a fullblown carrier would be.

I'd like to do a Culture ship from one of Iain M Banks' novels. Just because of their names:

http://www.iainbanksfaq.f9.co.uk/iain%20banks%20culture%20ship%20list.htm

Extent
06-21-2007, 08:35 AM
I think for the modeling challenges that choosing a theme works really well, rather than "make a teapot". Like the CGSociety challenges, "Machineflesh", "Grand Space Opera", etc. Even if Machineflesh was essentially "make a cyborg" they were vague enough to get some really different entries.

For the lighting challenges to be worthwhile I really think that they have to be on a prebuilt scene with only minor geometry modifications, if any, allowed to be worthwhile. If everyone makes their own scene then you're really not comparing just the lighting anymore.

Doing an "optimization" contest might be interesting too. Take a slow rendering scene and have people try to cut rendertime down as much as possible while staying true to the original render.

Andyjaggy
06-21-2007, 08:36 AM
I vote for spaceship ;) because i like them! they're almost like kittens ;)

Almost ;) Spaceship for me.

Andyjaggy
06-21-2007, 08:42 AM
Another idea for the spaceship challenge could be that you include a set of greebles or a texture that the person has to incorporate into the model. That way part of the judging criteria could be how well they use it.

starbase1
06-21-2007, 10:06 AM
I'd like to do a Culture ship from one of Iain M Banks' novels. Just because of their names:

http://www.iainbanksfaq.f9.co.uk/iain%20banks%20culture%20ship%20list.htm

Well, I'm going to do a Soviet N-1 moon rocket anyway, so nyah!
:D :D :D

Seriously though, if it is about sharing skills, does it matter much what type of ship? Like I said further up the thread, there are a LOT of common techniques in terms of panels, extrusion, nurnies, sense of scale, etc...

And as it seems there are enough of us to have a crack at that regardless of the totals, should we start working out some details of how we want it to go?

maybe something along the lines of:

===============================================

Spaceship modelling challenge.
The objective of this challenge is for those participating to share and improve their Lightwave techniques for modelling spaceships.
Those techniques will include, but are not limited to:

A sense of scale.
Convincing paneling.
Inlaying surface detail.
Dirtying down, for realism.
Running tubing over the surface.
Use of fine detail / nurnies / greebles.

You can enter messages in the main challenge thread, or have one of your own, as you see fit - please include 'Spaceship Challenge' in the subject of your thread.

We expect the challenge to run for 1 month, though of course nothing is stopping you from taking as long as you see fit.

================================================== =

What do you think?
Nick

Iain
06-21-2007, 10:20 AM
Looks good.
What about something like this for the lighting:


===============================================

Interior Lighting
The objective of this challenge is for those participating to share and improve their Lightwave techniques for effective lighting.
Those techniques will include, but are not limited to:

Adding appropriate props.
Adding detail to model and textures.
Optimising Render times
Clean or atmospheric lighting

A model will be provided.
You can enter messages in the main challenge thread, or have one of your own, as you see fit - please include 'Spaceship Challenge' in the subject of your thread.

We expect the challenge to run for 1 month, though of course nothing is stopping you from taking as long as you see fit.

================================================== =

sammael
06-21-2007, 10:27 AM
Sounds good guys although for the modeling challenge I think 2 months would be more appropriate, I cant speak for anyone else but personally im fairly limited for spare time.
Maybe we should just go with these topics and cover the other popular stuff in the future?
All entries posted in the WIP forum?

Iain
06-21-2007, 10:29 AM
Of course if you put "Spaceship Challenge" on the lighting threads that would be silly wouldn't it?

sammael
06-21-2007, 10:31 AM
How about non military class ships to be more specific?

*Pete*
06-21-2007, 10:33 AM
looks like we are headed towards spaceship modelling as the first challenge ;)

next month we can do something else.

and perhaps we could have a lighting challenge running parallel to the modelling challenge, new ones each month?

so, now we need to decide on whether or not to build the spaceship after an existing model, so that all will modell the same ship (there was a nice challenge over at spinquad.com some time ago).

or should we all model each our own spaceship??...imho a worse option if it is a modelling challenge as we would not only judge modelling skills, but also we would need to judge between different ships.


as for lighting...there has to be a ready scene for it.
variation allowed for colors, textures, lights and camera angles..but no additional modelling on the scene itself (no extra windows, doors and such) perhaps only some small props, such as lamps, pots, clocks etc etc.

Iain
06-21-2007, 10:39 AM
I have a scene in mind for the lighting one.
I'll look it out tonight and post it for approval.

sammael
06-21-2007, 10:42 AM
Judging between different models is common for a challenge, building someone elses design would ruin something like this for me I like the idea of creating something unique and viewing other peoples unique creations.
It should be part of the challenge to make something original imo and again I think 2 months for a model/texture challenge would be more appropriate.

Are you still happy to provide a generic scene for the lighting Iain? *edit* you beat me to it :)

Also I think it should be compulsory to have one thread per entry so save confusion.

sammael
06-21-2007, 11:29 AM
How about some rules for the spaceship challenge?
- No movie/tv ships (thus avoiding starwars/star trek challenge)
- Existing actual space craft/concept craft are allowed (for you Nick)
- Must be non military
- Medium/large ships only ie: larger than a personal craft.
- 2 moths completion time

hrgiger
06-21-2007, 11:53 AM
What if we did a modeling challenge of either a character or a structure/spaceship, then the next month we could have a challenge to texture the model that won the previous months challenge.

starbase1
06-21-2007, 12:04 PM
looks like we are headed towards spaceship modelling as the first challenge ;)

next month we can do something else.

and perhaps we could have a lighting challenge running parallel to the modelling challenge, new ones each month?


I think there is no reason that if enough people want a go, we can't have many running at once.

And the lighting one should include a reference to a supplied scene / objects, and an untextured render I think.

Nick

CMT
06-21-2007, 12:08 PM
I just want some soup! But I think there are too many chefs in the kitchen! :)

I think we should pick someone to moderate this challenge to quickly get this underway. I nominate sammael (who should also enter it) since it was his idea/thread that started this snowball.

If sammael doesn't want to then I withdraw my nomination for him and nominate oDDity! :) Well,... then we'd just get stuck with nude lycanthropes.

But someone needs to spearhead this and take charge and start making some executive decisions.

*Pete*
06-21-2007, 12:30 PM
So...Spaceship it is.


"- No movie/tv ships (thus avoiding starwars/star trek challenge)
- Existing actual space craft/concept craft are allowed (for you Nick)
- Must be non military
- Medium/large ships only ie: larger than a personal craft.
- 2 moths completion time"

i agree to those...sounds very nice for me.


And if Iain, our Lighting guru provides a scene...we are set to go :)


ooohh...we need judges!!

CMT
06-21-2007, 12:31 PM
Well,... then we'd just get stuck with nude lycanthropes.

F'n 5 min edit! .... Wanted to change "lycanthopes" to "half man creatures." Mixed my terms up....

CMT
06-21-2007, 12:40 PM
ooohh...we need judges!!

I'll volunteer if need be. I actually wouldn't mind sitting out for the first one. I'm trying to finish another personal project, a couple freelance projects and the CGTalk challenge, so I'm feeling a bit stretched thin anyway.

If everyone agrees, I'm up for it.

kevinone
06-21-2007, 01:14 PM
Why non-military?, wait I get it, how about we model a vw-bus with a peace sign orbeting the moon; and the headlights coverd with a blanket!, don't forget the PG-13 rating......

IMI
06-21-2007, 02:41 PM
So...Spaceship it is.




I just checked the results of the poll and it says that "Lighting - premade indoor scene" is ahead of spaceship.

IMI
06-21-2007, 02:56 PM
Ah, I see, thanks.
I guess I should have been paying closer attention. :D

starbase1
06-21-2007, 03:47 PM
I just checked the results of the poll and it says that "Lighting - premade indoor scene" is ahead of spaceship.

Well, sure. But I notice enough people have said they want a spaceship first for us to have ourselves a challenge! The lighting types can do likewise!

:)

starbase1
06-21-2007, 03:57 PM
So...Spaceship it is.


"- No movie/tv ships (thus avoiding starwars/star trek challenge)
- Existing actual space craft/concept craft are allowed (for you Nick)
- Must be non military
- Medium/large ships only ie: larger than a personal craft.
- 2 moths completion time"

i agree to those...sounds very nice for me.

And if Iain, our Lighting guru provides a scene...we are set to go :)

ooohh...we need judges!!

Pete, I don't think I should have special exemptions!

I'm also not at all sure about the ban on tv or film designs - if its a modeling challenge, it's a lot easier to tell how well it has been modeled if people know the original to compare against. I'd also suggest that allowing ships from popular SF would get a lot more people entering...

Andyjaggy
06-21-2007, 04:05 PM
So...Spaceship it is.


"- No movie/tv ships (thus avoiding starwars/star trek challenge)
- Existing actual space craft/concept craft are allowed (for you Nick)
- Must be non military
- Medium/large ships only ie: larger than a personal craft.
- 2 moths completion time"

i agree to those...sounds very nice for me.


And if Iain, our Lighting guru provides a scene...we are set to go :)


ooohh...we need judges!!

Everything sounds good there except the no small ships thing. That ruins the idea I had. I'm just one guy though so. Yeah.

*Pete*
06-21-2007, 11:50 PM
id also rather modell a small ship...but i think the idea sammael had was to have a somewhat realistic spaceship..so no military/recreational (i was thinking a small ship with no roof...pimp-my-spaceship style heheh).

as the suggestions stand now...i see for my self something like a satelite, or a shuttle...a craft that could pass as a real existing scientific vessel in the space, today ;)

but..as mentioned...modelling a building got more votes so far, how long should we let this poll stand before we decide what to modell?

IMI
06-22-2007, 12:02 AM
Everything sounds good there except the no small ships thing. That ruins the idea I had. I'm just one guy though so. Yeah.


No, not entirely just one guy - I already started working on a spaceship of a more "casual commuter" nature. This topic awakened the Inner Jetsons in me. :D

FWIW, I say, a spaceship is a spaceship - if it's a vehicle in space, and walks like a duck, it must be a spaceship. ;)

starbase1
06-22-2007, 12:43 AM
I really don't understand what the objection is to small ships... And if several want to do it, lets go!

As for how long the survey runs - I think people are still waiting for some sort of official statement, and that is not going to happen.

If there are enough people wanting to do a challenge, just get some consensus on it, and get cracking!

I suggest on the spaceship front that unless there are many objections, I start a spaceship challenge thread this evening, based on use of the techniques I proposed earlier..

Nick

sammael
06-22-2007, 12:55 AM
Why non-military?, wait I get it, how about we model a vw-bus with a peace sign orbeting the moon; and the headlights coverd with a blanket!, don't forget the PG-13 rating......

What an idiotic statement.

jameswillmott
06-22-2007, 12:57 AM
My suggestion would still be a large science/research vessel, as that opens up a whole lot of room for interesting designs.


Neverko's idea is a very good one.

sammael
06-22-2007, 01:12 AM
I really don't understand what the objection is to small ships... And if several want to do it, lets go!

As for how long the survey runs - I think people are still waiting for some sort of official statement, and that is not going to happen.

If there are enough people wanting to do a challenge, just get some consensus on it, and get cracking!

I suggest on the spaceship front that unless there are many objections, I start a spaceship challenge thread this evening, based on use of the techniques I proposed earlier..

Nick

I say go ahead then Nick, personally im not too fussed about whether small ships are allowed or not, it was just a suggestion to narrow down the rules a bit as some people thought would be appropriate. I disagree with you about allowing starwars stuff though, I cant tell you how sick I am of seeing the same old ideas being modeled repeatedly, realy its not that hard to model from blueprints or the multitued of refrences available. Allow it if you must but personally think the actual design of a unique craft would add to the challenge. Cant say I would be very impressed to see another enterprise or millenium falcon despite how well it was modeled.

We do have more votes now for both human/creature and buildings though :)
At least we have topics the next 2 modeling challenges.

I would suggest if we are going to do this, have 1 thread fot topic/rules, hopefully we can get one of the mods to make it sticky. Each participant should have a thread each to save confusion, the appropriate title should be specified in the rules.

sammael
06-22-2007, 01:19 AM
What do you propose the theme should be then, Nick? :) A small undefined craft isn't particularly specific. One thing is for certain, if existing sci-fi designs are allowed, I'm not going to participate due to lack of interest in such a challenge.

Not trying to be obstinate or anything, but we really need a more narrowed down subject matter.
I do agree with neverko on these points. I like the idea of a sceintific vessel as well. At least it narrows it down to something that can be more easily judged.

yusreey
06-22-2007, 01:24 AM
Too much light makes my rendering process very slow.

starbase1
06-22-2007, 01:26 AM
What do you propose the theme should be then, Nick? :) A small undefined craft isn't particularly specific. One thing is for certain, if existing sci-fi designs are allowed, I'm not going to participate due to lack of interest in such a challenge.

Not trying to be obstinate or anything, but we really need a more narrowed down subject matter.

I think it should be more about the modeling techniques that are useful in general - I really don't think the exact nature of the craft is important. I don't care if it's big or small, real or imaginary, a copy of a fictional design or an original.

I just feel that there is no mileage in stopping someone modeling whatever type of spaceship they wish - every such restriction will reduce the number of people joining in. I'm particularly nervous about insisting on big vehicles, as it demands a high level of commitment, that may put off the less experienced modelers, who have most to gain.

Personally I learn most when trying to model to a specific object - If it is just something like "a spaceship" I tend to think of ways of using techniques I know. With a specific object I am faced with "How do I do that?" which forces me to learn. And as I remarked earlier, its MUCH easier to judge!

My first serious lesson in this kind of stuff was a Ron Thornton video tape back in V5.6 It was very much in the Babylon 5 style as you would expect. But it was extremely useful to a very great degree in my learning about doing real ships.

I also think an insistence on original designs will be as much a design challenge as anything...

Just one voice...

Nick

starbase1
06-22-2007, 01:30 AM
I say go ahead then Nick, personally im not too fussed about whether small ships are allowed or not, it was just a suggestion to narrow down the rules a bit as some people thought would be appropriate. I disagree with you about allowing starwars stuff though, I cant tell you how sick I am of seeing the same old ideas being modeled repeatedly, realy its not that hard to model from blueprints or the multitued of refrences available.

Oh, on the personal level I agree completely - it would be pretty boring to see the same old Trek Enterprise for the millionth time. I just think people should be allowed to do this dull unimaginative stuff if they wish. And that we will exclude quite a few people if we say that...

Nick

sammael
06-22-2007, 01:40 AM
Oh, on the personal level I agree completely - it would be pretty boring to see the same old Trek Enterprise for the millionth time. I just think people should be allowed to do this dull unimaginative stuff if they wish. And that we will exclude quite a few people if we say that...

Nick

I dont think so, I think most people have a craving to make something original, they just need a push in the right direction. I think we just need to set the rules and people will have to put up with it.

sammael
06-22-2007, 01:51 AM
By all means allow smaller vessels for the reasons you stated. I like the idea of a specific ship type though to give the challenge direction, maybe it could be one of two types say sceintific vessel or fighter. That gives the option to create a smaller personal fighter type craft or a larger vessel hopefully not excluding too many people.

sammael
06-22-2007, 02:15 AM
I think it should be more about the modeling techniques that are useful in general - I really don't think the exact nature of the craft is important. I don't care if it's big or small, real or imaginary, a copy of a fictional design or an original.

I just feel that there is no mileage in stopping someone modeling whatever type of spaceship they wish - every such restriction will reduce the number of people joining in. I'm particularly nervous about insisting on big vehicles, as it demands a high level of commitment, that may put off the less experienced modelers, who have most to gain.

Personally I learn most when trying to model to a specific object - If it is just something like "a spaceship" I tend to think of ways of using techniques I know. With a specific object I am faced with "How do I do that?" which forces me to learn. And as I remarked earlier, its MUCH easier to judge!

My first serious lesson in this kind of stuff was a Ron Thornton video tape back in V5.6 It was very much in the Babylon 5 style as you would expect. But it was extremely useful to a very great degree in my learning about doing real ships.

I also think an insistence on original designs will be as much a design challenge as anything...

Just one voice...

Nick

A modeling challenge encourages participants to view other threads and check out what others are doing, giving them some insight into various different workflows and techniques for achieving various effects. In my opinion it would be a valuable learning experience for all those involved. I would learn a hell of a lot by following your thread for example having never made a spaceship before.

Iain
06-22-2007, 02:23 AM
I was thinking about something like this for lighting. It's a big Georgian room so there are options for different styles i.e modern or traditional would both work.
There would be no furniture or texture maps provided and you'd have the freedom to add your own cornice, ceiling rose, picture rail, picture frames etc.

This is a very simple render of it I threw together last night. The lighting could be as warm and sunny or dark and atmospheric as you want and the furnishings could be as traditional or contemporary as you see fit.

Waddayatink?

sammael
06-22-2007, 03:23 AM
The model looks good to me Iain, those windows make for some interesting lighting options without the scene being overly complex.

Just to put a spanner in the works how about we just go with 'Human/creature biped or quadraped' since thats the most popular so far, it saves argueing about what the rules for a spaceship challeng are.

I would like to see a Quadraped challenge because you rarely see any on this forum, I think most of us would learn something.

- Quadraped, animal or creature, best overall model/texture wins as voted by forum users in a poll.

Iain
06-22-2007, 03:28 AM
I'm quite relieved about that as spaceships don't really excite me very much. I think anyone with a bit of spatial awareness could come up with a decent spaceship model.
A creature challenge would be a huge learning curve for me and I'd get help as I went along.

sammael
06-22-2007, 03:59 AM
Would that quadraped/creature challenge be purely LightWave based or would ZBrush/Mudbox be allowed? If it's the latter then it'll more likely turn into a sculpting challenge instead of a LightWave challenge. I've lost interest in rendering organics in LightWave for the time being, as I'm running out of memory as soon as I try rendering detailed sculpts.

Since its a common workflow I dont see why displacement should not be allowed, people can use it or not as it suits them, the base mesh must be created in LW and the model must be textured in LW.
Your running almost identicle specs as me why cant you render a decent sculpt? are you using displacement maps?
I can get away with about 2 milion polys fully textured with optomised textures. With a sufficient LOD using aps.

sammael
06-22-2007, 04:10 AM
You can get a prety detailed creature with that, im frustrated about it as well but I guess we can only hope that they fix it soon. Alyway I hope you participate, the more the merrier, im always happy to share any tips that I learn to squeeze in a bit of extra detail. So far reducing image quality to 256 indexed is the best ram saver I have found, you dont loose much detail in the shaders realy, its hardly noticable.
Actually you have twice the memory as me and its faster ram.

Iain
06-22-2007, 04:25 AM
A liger?

sammael
06-22-2007, 04:26 AM
Hmm do you think thats nescesary? I would probably prefer to make some sort of undead beast myself but others should feel free to make cats and things. I think its specific enough, the trick will be to get a convincing anatomy for a four legged creature something I have never tried making myself and few others have here either, at least that they posted.
I dunno to me I dont realy care who wins, its just about learning, it would be nice to see what bizzare ideas people will come up with.
Personally I can reccommend vista 64 the only downfall is that zbrush 2 will not install but that may be to do with my specs.

*Pete*
06-22-2007, 05:05 AM
About the modelling challenge.


how about we lay out the challenge as a "ordered by a client".

the Client/Challenge will have some certain criterias for the image/modell we need to create.

"example.

"make a craft suitable for exploring the moon/mars"

-needs to have place for a crew of 3 to 5.
-must be selfpropelled by an engine of some sort
-...etc etc."


this would focus all entries very closely to the same theme, while allowing for artistic creativity and personal design...also would put everyone to think what would a real life craft need, instead of just adding wings, supersize engine, cannons and a cool cocpit on a simple form, then insert it into a space scene.


Iain...i like it very much, i already want to start playing with that scene!! :thumbsup:

Iain
06-22-2007, 05:32 AM
As the modelling debate goes on, here's the back of the room for the lighting challenge. It's basically a big empty space with a detailed door and windows.

Obvious additions would be a big fireplace and a 'press' style cupboard but I'll leave all of that open.

If everyone agrees it's suitable, I'll post it here for Sammael to take over or just set up a thread.

IMI
06-22-2007, 05:32 AM
I'll just scale my ship up some, if being small is a problem - add some space for passengers, equipment, alien birthing facilities, whatever. ;)

But, you can't say that Small is synonymous with Simple. Seen some of the new BMW's, Volvos and Mercedes lately? ;)

IMI
06-22-2007, 05:34 AM
As the modelling debate goes on, here's the back of the room for the lighting challenge. It's basically a big empty space with a detailed door and windows.

Obvious additions would be a big fireplace and a 'press' style cupboard but I'll leave all of that open.

If everyone agrees it's suitable, I'll post it here for Sammael to take over or just set up a thread.


FWIW, I think it's "suitable" as all hell. That's something I'd really like to dig into. :)

sammael
06-22-2007, 07:13 AM
As the modelling debate goes on, here's the back of the room for the lighting challenge. It's basically a big empty space with a detailed door and windows.

Obvious additions would be a big fireplace and a 'press' style cupboard but I'll leave all of that open.

If everyone agrees it's suitable, I'll post it here for Sammael to take over or just set up a thread.

Since its your scene, I say go ahead and start up a thread, im happy to start the modeling challenge if no one objects. Perhaps we can work out a sort of generic layout for the intros to the challenge and rules thread via pm, or here?
Your a bit quiet there starbase1, are you happy to ditch the spaceships for this challenge and go with popular opinion?

Its going to be a Quadraped challenge
- Quadraped, animal or creature, best overall model/texture wins as voted by forum users in a poll.
- Displacement can be used
- Can be mechanical or organic
- 2 months time limit
- noobs welcome

Thats the rules ill give it a couple of days for any major objections and or suggestions for extra rules.

Andyjaggy
06-22-2007, 07:38 AM
I was thinking it would be cool to do something like, model a ship from the "Enders Game" series. That would leave room for a lot of creativity but still have enough limitations to make it practical. But then you run into the problem of a lot of people never having read the books.

I can't say if I will even have time to participate in this so I don't think my opinion is too valid.

sammael
06-22-2007, 07:41 AM
Actually ill give it about 16 hours to save excessive bickering.
That gives me time to wake up and make a coffee tomorrow.
If anyone has MAJOR objections, speak up now or forever hold your peace!
The time now is 01:31 PM GMT as stated at the bottom of this thread, hopefully everyone sees the same time there?

sammael
06-22-2007, 07:45 AM
neverko - yep hopefully some people will speak up by tomorrow, if the overwhelming majority are still argueing for a spaceship thread we might have to go with that.

Andyjaggy - Ill be the first to admit I have never heard of Enders Game :(

Iain
06-22-2007, 07:49 AM
Well I don't think there's much to object to or add to for the lighting challenge so I'll put something up in around an hour if I still haven't heard anything.

I was just going to use the format Starbase1 used for the spaceship number.
PM me or post here if you have other ideas Sammael (or anybody).

sammael
06-22-2007, 07:51 AM
Sounds fine to me, perhaps just post the rules here for brief review? Im not fussed though realy, I couldnt tell you the first thing you need to know about lighting :) Ill just try to abide by the guidelines.

Iain
06-22-2007, 08:12 AM
===============================================

Interior Lighting
The objective of this challenge is for those participating to share and improve their Lightwave techniques for effective lighting.

A model is provided and can be added to (fireplace, Lights etc) but should not be fundamentally altered.

Each entrant can add furnishings of their choice and can colour and light the scene any way they see fit.

The winning entry will be the most successful combination of texturing, lighting and composition but inexperienced users should NOT be put off entering and should see this as an opportunity to learn.

You can enter messages in the main challenge thread, or have one of your own, as you see fit - please include 'Interior Lighting Challenge' in the subject of your thread.

We expect the challenge to run for 1 month, though of course nothing is stopping you from taking as long as you see fit and of course, there are no prizes.

================================================== =


?

sammael
06-22-2007, 08:16 AM
I must admit that I'd jump on the space ship challenge without hesitation. Not sure about the quadraped thing, unless I get a sudden surge of four-legged inspiration.
I would be happy with either myself, there just seemed to be too many conflicting views on the spaceship one and it is the least popular.
As for inspiration for a quadraped, myelf, I was sort of thinking along the lines of combining various anatomies for diferent animals to create a fearsome beast, perhaps that could be ridden by some other creature or human. Claws that could rip your guts out, that type of thing.
could be a reptile, marsupial, cat, dog, cammel, pig, robot etc. I dont think it should have to be realistic either.

sammael
06-22-2007, 08:19 AM
Sounds good Iain although I think it should be compulsory to have one thread each entry, it could become a bit messy otherwise.

Perhaps 'Interior Lighting Challenge' followed by '- username'

DogBoy
06-22-2007, 08:21 AM
- 2 moths completion time"


... ooohh...we need judges!!

Well i have a lot of moths at my place, so I'm willing to judge and measure time :devil:

Iain
06-22-2007, 08:22 AM
Yeah we need judges-and another 2 moths.

artstorm
06-22-2007, 08:26 AM
As I put down my vote for biped/quadraped, I though I should chip in to this thread. I've been wanting to model a creature myself for sometime, and this sounds like an excellent opportunity to dedicate some time towards it.

I think the rules Sammael wrote down for a quadraped challenge sounds good. Perhaps decide if it should be just a challenge for a quadraped object? Or should it be composited into some environment of some sort to be more of a complete piece?

sammael
06-22-2007, 08:29 AM
I think a poll would be the best option for judging, any member can vote. That way we can display all the finished works in the poll thread for people to examine and review.

artstorm - Either should be acceptable imo if people have the time to add an environment to better show off their creature then by all means.

MooseDog
06-22-2007, 08:32 AM
===============================================

Interior Lighting
The objective of this challenge is for those participating to share and improve their Lightwave techniques for effective lighting.

A model is provided and can be added to (fireplace, Lights etc) but should not be fundamentally altered.

Each entrant can add furnishings of their choice and can colour and light the scene any way they see fit.

The winning entry will be the most successful combination of texturing, lighting and composition but inexperienced users should NOT be put off entering and should see this as an opportunity to learn.

You can enter messages in the main challenge thread, or have one of your own, as you see fit - please include 'Interior Lighting Challenge' in the subject of your thread.

We expect the challenge to run for 1 month, though of course nothing is stopping you from taking as long as you see fit and of course, there are no prizes.

================================================== =


?


sounds very reasonable iain. thx for the scene starter as well. count me in :thumbsup:

what a great opportunity to share and learn, as honestly i'm struggling with interior lighting. hopefully will make a contribution somewhere too :).

sammael
06-22-2007, 08:35 AM
Although poll's may have a 10 options limit do they?
Maybe people can just vote for first, second, third and give their reasons in the final display thread. Thats how cgsociety advanced challenges operate and it seems to work ok.
We just count the votes after a set time.

Iain
06-22-2007, 08:38 AM
Ok I'm set.
Where will I post the challenge?
This Forum ok? (LW-Community)

sammael
06-22-2007, 08:42 AM
or perhaps wip, you choose and we will see if the mods move it or not

Iain
06-22-2007, 08:52 AM
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=559424#post559424

starbase1
06-22-2007, 09:18 AM
About the modelling challenge.

how about we lay out the challenge as a "ordered by a client".

the Client/Challenge will have some certain criterias for the image/model we need to create.

"example.

"make a craft suitable for exploring the moon/mars"

-needs to have place for a crew of 3 to 5.
-must be selfpropelled by an engine of some sort
-...etc etc."


I really like that idea a lot! It does a nice job of combining a common goal with room for expression by the modeller.

It could also apply very well to a lighting / room challenge, if you think in terms of a commision to show possibilities of the space.

sammael
06-22-2007, 09:36 AM
Whats it going to be people, Quadraped or spaceship? :twak:

*Pete*
06-22-2007, 09:42 AM
quadruped spaceship??...a mars explorer with feet? heheh

v1u1ant
06-22-2007, 09:54 AM
But thats just the Eagle craft from Space 1999!!!

Still i wouldnt mind having a go at modelling one of those, they were cool and you could allow for variations of the craft.

Just a thought.

sammael
06-22-2007, 09:58 AM
I would'nt like our chances in a life or death situation, we would all be dead by now :)

IMI
06-22-2007, 10:43 AM
Since small, personal craft are, I guess, verboten, I was thinking along the lines of Louis Wu's ship in Ringworld... but I can't remember the name of the ship, or if it was a Bussard ramjet, or if that was from Neutron Star....

Thinking big...big...big...

Modeler needs a "greeble" ;)

sammael
06-22-2007, 10:55 AM
I wish everyone would read all the posts they missed to find out what the discussion has consited of for the last few pages. All this random discussion about spaceships from books and things is quite counterproductive.

Andyjaggy
06-22-2007, 11:06 AM
Speaking of spaceships from books it would be cool if we did the ship from Hitchikers....... J/K

IMI
06-22-2007, 12:08 PM
I wish everyone would read all the posts they missed to find out what the discussion has consited of for the last few pages. All this random discussion about spaceships from books and things is quite counterproductive.



'scuse me, man, didn't mean to contribute to the counterproductivity. ;)

As i understand it now, and as i figure most people here do, there's a spaceship modeling challenge, and a lighting challenge. Right?

However, i hereby pledge to respect this thread and from here on out, make no more lighthearted comments.
I apologize for any anxiety I may have caused.

*Pete*
06-22-2007, 12:18 PM
As i understand it now, and as i figure most people here do, there's a spaceship modeling challenge, and a lighting challenge. Right?
.

mmmm..yeah, and the spaceship modelling received least votes of all lol

for me, it doesnt matter...in a way id like to modell buildings mainly, would fit wih my portfolio building, but a spaceship or a quadruped/human/organic would be more of a challenge for me...

all options are good for me, really...my posts here so far havent been becouse i favour spaceship modelling over anything else, but more in order to help with making the challenge usefull for all of us.

to make a challenge as something a real client would ask for is, i think, the best solution...no matter what we end up modelling.

IMI
06-22-2007, 01:46 PM
to make a challenge as something a real client would ask for is, i think, the best solution...no matter what we end up modelling.


That's actually an exceptionally good idea, considering that's what we're more likely to get hit with.
You know, a client asks if you can make a nice ad for his Widget, which might be as far-removed from Space and Sci-Fi as anything.
That's where the modeling can get fun (or incredibly aggravating), when you don't know how to do what you've been asked to do, but have to figger it out quickly. :)

CMT
06-22-2007, 03:24 PM
to make a challenge as something a real client would ask for is, i think, the best solution...no matter what we end up modelling.

That's different for each person.

sammael
06-22-2007, 11:57 PM
Anyway I give up on this, ill join in if you guys can ever make a clear decision on something.

*Pete*
06-23-2007, 03:23 PM
it would be wrong to go for spaceship, as it received the least amount of votes....if you, or someone, would start a challenge for a quadruped creature, im sure you would get several to join in.

starbase1
06-23-2007, 03:58 PM
it would be wrong to go for spaceship, as it received the least amount of votes....if you, or someone, would start a challenge for a quadruped creature, im sure you would get several to join in.

Why don't one of you organic modeling types do exactly that? Or if still unsure post a further poll to narrow down exactly what option people want?

Nick

hrgiger
06-23-2007, 05:25 PM
I would like to see it be a monthly thing, something new each month. I wouldn't mind giving some webspace to displaying the entries for each month as well as the winner.

I think Newtek should throw us some Newtek bucks (even something as low as $25) for the monthly winner.

sammael
06-24-2007, 01:04 AM
Why don't one of you organic modeling types do exactly that? Or if still unsure post a further poll to narrow down exactly what option people want?

Nick

Nick I think another poll might be the way to go, since spaceships although being the least popular are the most talked about I think it should be a poll with either organic or spaceships as the options. Since no one has spoken up about buildings at all I think its safe to say that we can scrap it to norrow down the options.

This is my offering for some rules for the organic option:
Quadraped challenge
- Quadraped, animal or creature, best overall model/texture wins as voted by forum users in a poll.
- Displacement can be used
- Can be mechanical or organic
- 2 months time limit
- noobs welcome

If you care to lay down the rules for the spaceship challenge since you have the most experience on the subject that would be great, we can start a new poll and leave it for a week or so to see once and for all which challenge should be first. The least popular option we will reserve as the topic for the next model/texture challenge.

So if your up for it we can start a poll with only 2 options, quadraped challenge as stated above and one for spaceships, with the rules decided by you to save excessive bickering, I think we have a fair idea what people would like to see in a spaceship challenge, its just a matter of someone taking the initiative to set the rules in concrete.

sammael
06-24-2007, 02:09 AM
Sounds perfect to me neverko do you care to start the final poll?
No compromise, 1 week time limit on the poll.

starbase1
06-24-2007, 02:10 AM
I propose:

Spaceship Challenge

- Science Vessel (of any size you desire).
- Optionally provide a brief description of the purpose of the craft, to clarify design choices.
- Best overall design wins as voted by forum users in a poll.
- Displacement can be used
- Can be realistic/contemporary, alien, organic or anything you can imagine.
- 2 months time limit
- Beginners welcome
- No Sci-fi series/movie clones.

:)


I was clearly out of line with popular opinion, so I'll take a back seat on that one. I have already started the extreme basics of my N-1 though!

starbase1
06-24-2007, 03:53 AM
:chicken:

Err...

Bog
06-24-2007, 05:55 PM
The human thing's a funny one. If you put Time into something like ZBrush or Mudbox, and focus on human anatomy, then you can become repeatably competent in under a year. Using "standard" tools, it's a different story. At this point, I'd have to call it that LW is an Inappropriate Tool for making humans in, simply because a displacement package rather than a geometry creation package is called for. Making the base geometry? Hell yeah. Making something aninatable? Again, yesh. But a whole-solution human-maker? It's part of the chain, not the whole answer - and as it's an LW challenge, then targetting in on something that LW can be wholly used for would make sense to me.

sammael
06-24-2007, 10:22 PM
Thats true but on the other hand, displacement is now just a normal stage in the workflow of any app when making organic stuff, theres still a bit of an art in getting your displacement to work correctly in LW and to come up with a base mesh that can deform properly for animation. Its something that anyone making organics needs to learn these days. The texture/lighting aspect is still purely LW.

starbase1
06-25-2007, 05:25 AM
Nice to see so many getting stuck into the lighting challenge so fast...
Nick

Iain
06-25-2007, 05:44 AM
I think it's just the nature of it, Nick. All you have to do is send the model to Layout and you're away.

Although some people are actually asking for props. Maybe I should just have lit it too :confused:

sammael
06-25-2007, 11:50 AM
I think perhaps we could have a tighter deadline for the lighting challenges in the future it might make it more of a challenge. A week or two seems sufficient to me & that way we get to work on something new sooner and improve our skills faster. That is if there are enough people willing to provide lighting scenarios. Just a thought.

Im still keen to get this modeling challenge underway as well any thoughts about the next step to go about it? should we wait a bit or have it running at the same time as the lighting challenge?
I still think it might be a good idea to do another poll with the rules for each option clearly layed out although I am reluctant to start another poll since we have had 2 already.

Iain since you have more experience with architectural visualisation stuff can you think of some specific guidelines for rules in that area? Its clearly a popular option despite no one offering any imput along those lines.

*Pete*
06-25-2007, 02:45 PM
I think it's just the nature of it, Nick. All you have to do is send the model to Layout and you're away.

Although some people are actually asking for props. Maybe I should just have lit it too :confused:


props not really needed. i like the way the lighting challenge is evolving now.

when everone makes there own props, it becomes more intresting....

however...perhaps for the next challenge we could have a larger enviroment, more windows and possible light entrances...a hallway, warehouse, factory or something like that....none, or only a few props that would be included.

variation allowed only for camera locations and lighting...maybe?

a larger scene would allow for more intresting lighting.


just an idea....seeing that the poll gives 19 votes for both character and building modelling, we could have a challenge to model a larger building (interior only?) that we could then use for the next lighting challenge.

same could be done with character modelling, we could have a "light a character" challenge or something?

sammael
06-26-2007, 12:07 AM
same could be done with character modelling, we could have a "light a character" challenge or something?

I like that idea, I need to work on lighting and I usually make characters so...

Stooch
06-26-2007, 02:28 AM
I'm all for doing a space ship challenge. I haven't done one in over 10 years. So it seems like a good idea to me. I really need to do at least one proper space ship in LightWave. As long as it's not a challenge to build some boring, existing design.

remember that aargument we had about whether spaceships are dirty or not?

well i was all about making a challenge of a "realistic" futuristic ship. i still wouldnt mind entering a challenge but i am extremely booked right now. (not taht its a bad thing heh)

starbase1
06-26-2007, 10:39 AM
Just an idea, but given the very sensible focus on render times, it might be nice to ask for at least one render of the final things we end up with to be done at a standard size, and include the render times. Looking at the way people are working,I'd suggest 800x600.

Artists choice of render options / anti aliasing etc. I think it would be a big help to see how good an image can be in a reasonable render time - it's to easy to crank up all the settings to high heaven, and let it render for a week...

Nick

*Pete*
06-26-2007, 11:49 AM
Maybe Newtek should add a "challenge forum"...becouse now the wip thread is full of the challenges, instead of wip's as it should.

kevinone
06-26-2007, 01:51 PM
I would think NT would help out Pete, a little puzzled why they have not shown intrest, would not take that long to set up and good for business I would think. I like the way spinquad has their challenges set up, very nice!

Stooch
06-26-2007, 02:01 PM
Did I argue with you about this? Because I don't remember if I did :D Or was it rather a forum wide discussion that I missed? I don't remember ever having had to tax my wee brain with a question of such obvious, existentially mind blowing importance! :)

no i didnt want to imply that we personall yhad a an argument lol, yeah it was a pretty heated discussion in the general forum

*Pete*
06-30-2007, 01:56 PM
An idea for the next challenge, be it what ever it may.

all entries posted on a challenge thread, as long we do not have a challenge forum, we could post all entries within the same thread.

not the best solution, but works very well in the lighting challenges at cgtalk.com for example.