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View Full Version : strech and squash character in various position



LWNeo
06-14-2007, 02:20 AM
hi all
I'm animator and use Lightwave 'cause it's best 3D software in the =
world.
Modeling is superb!
Rendering and Texturing is N-1!!!
But one thing I wanna improve is rigging:
As animator I want animate characters in Lightwave use 2D principles to =
make skelegon sistems more plastic and enterprising.
IS it possible in Lightwave now to make rigging handy for animators use =
characters as they did in classic 2D animation?
make grotesque movement(strech and squash character in various position =
not using bones separately but using whole skelegon sistem.
This is one good thing which they got in Maya.

Mr Big
06-14-2007, 01:19 PM
Kurv has a special on right now.

http://www.kurvstudios.com/special.php

t4d
06-14-2007, 04:57 PM
hi all
I'm animator and use Lightwave 'cause it's best 3D software in the =
world.
Modeling is superb!
Rendering and Texturing is N-1!!!
But one thing I wanna improve is rigging:
As animator I want animate characters in Lightwave use 2D principles to =
make skelegon sistems more plastic and enterprising.
IS it possible in Lightwave now to make rigging handy for animators use =
characters as they did in classic 2D animation?
make grotesque movement(strech and squash character in various position =
not using bones separately but using whole skelegon sistem.
This is one good thing which they got in Maya.

like THIS ? (http://www.squarerocket.com/videos/demo_rig2.mov)

sorry to inform you But Lightwave can't do those rigs I tried for many years. I now uses messiah or XSI for that stuff ( I'll have a short in afew weeks showing it ;)

the main issues in LW is you can't have multipy layers of animation rigs and Deformation rigs that run at a speed that is workiable.

YES you could setup some of those things, But you then will have issues animating them in a creative way.

pooby
06-16-2007, 05:48 AM
Rigging is one of the areas that Newtek are going to Re-vamp.

LW isn't appropriate for Cartoony squash and stretch rigs. Not to say it wont work at all, but it's difficulty/result ratio is poor to say the least.

I spent a LOT of years in LW designing clever methods to do this kind of thing, and could still never achieve anything near what I wanted.

If you need to do it now I would suggest getting XSI foundation if you can afford it. It has more than everything you need to do this stuff and isn't that hard to learn.
Otherwise, wait around for the new LW tools. Which will be quite a wait I would imagine.
Or, if you don't have particularly high goals in mind, then attempt it with what's in there now, but you have been warned.

Stooch
06-16-2007, 11:47 AM
hi all
I'm animator and use Lightwave 'cause it's best 3D software in the = world.
>>>
This is one good thing which they got in Maya.

wow which world is that?

t4d
06-16-2007, 07:08 PM
wow which world is that?

it's the real world .:thumbsup:

I see no issues with Loving Lightwave specially when you know where the limits are.

nice to see there was not a fanboy BS explosion on this subject :thumbsup:

adamredwoods
06-25-2007, 02:41 PM
Great example of squash and stretch t4d! I also like this example for XSI's power in rigging.


As for Lightwave's rigging, I'm working on a plugin that should help for some things:
http://www.twopiesoftware.com/rigmaster/demos/


But I do agree that Newtek needs to spend more time in this, and will require a core rewrite and a better way to interface to its plugins (won't see it anytime soon, maybe v10?).


//Adam

hrgiger
06-26-2007, 05:47 AM
But I do agree that Newtek needs to spend more time in this, and will require a core rewrite and a better way to interface to its plugins (won't see it anytime soon, maybe v10?).


//Adam

Everyone seems to think that version 10 is some magic number where it's all going to happen. We're technically not even out of 9.2. Have people forgotten we still have several free updates to go? Besides, Newtek has been rewriting the core since version 8 and all indications point to improvements to character animation before the magic # 10.

JamesCurtis
06-26-2007, 06:54 AM
Hey Adam,

Any idea when the plugin will be available - even for betatesting it!!

adamredwoods
06-26-2007, 10:10 AM
Any idea when the plugin will be available - even for betatesting it!!

I'm finishing up a large project, then I can dedicate full-time polishing it. I'll be posting more about it in about a month.

//Adam

Chris S. (Fez)
06-27-2007, 12:09 PM
Adam, RigMaster looks awesome. Would it be possible to add squash and stretch IK to any arbitrary IK chain?

adamredwoods
06-28-2007, 05:17 PM
Not with this version. I'm currently investigating muscle bones and their uses. Then when that's implemented, I can incorporate stretchy IK, but these are both planned for future versions.

B/C stretchiness isn't inherent to LW, I would almost have to rewrite a new IK solver system for a stretchy IK.

//Adam

t4d
06-28-2007, 06:13 PM
just a note Your going into a area MANY Studio's and third party Developers have tried to go into before and we have all failed.

yes a new rigging plugin would be welcome Maestro, Autocharcter setup and My tools all have issues positive and negative and You may have a new system that is worth it,:thumbsup: For me I welcome a new plugin, I've seen 2 or 3 new rigging plugin demoing over the last 2 or 3 years..

But PLG IK is about the most advanced thing that can be done with LW's current system.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/nif-hp/index2_english.htm

anyone who wants more out of LW AND has used Maya, XSI, Max, C4D etc all are now just waiting for Newtek to do some major updating before attacking the lw rigging problem again. it really is a core LW issues unless you make your system a outside app like messiah.

Don't sell false hope. :tsktsk:

Dodgy
06-29-2007, 03:49 AM
Not with this version. I'm currently investigating muscle bones and their uses. Then when that's implemented, I can incorporate stretchy IK, but these are both planned for future versions.

B/C stretchiness isn't inherent to LW, I would almost have to rewrite a new IK solver system for a stretchy IK.

//Adam


Umm, that's not the case. I just added one expression and got a working stretchy IK in conjunction with my muscle plugin. You could do it without the muscle plugin too, just replace that with some expressions. It would be fairly easy to wrap into an lscript though.

t4d
06-29-2007, 04:11 AM
have you got something like this going in LW yet Dodgy ?

http://www.thomas4d.com/legexsample.rar

Dodgy
06-29-2007, 04:59 AM
I've got this:

Install the MakeStretchy plugins then load the .lws You can stretch the knee manually by grabbing it and pulling it, but you could add an expression to make it follow a knee goal.

t4d
06-29-2007, 05:23 AM
I needed to install this one as well for the scene to work.. =)
You make some cool plugin man =)

but seriously,. do you really think that scene is the same as my Video ?

becasue
1/ I can't place the knee anything like the video
2/ the bones twist ( bad deformation ) when set the Chain rotation
( or maybe there's another way your setting the direction of the leg ?? )
3/ the Whole chain also twists when the foot is moved
4/ you can't bend the knee and raise the Knee target to scale the upper leg
5/ all the bones scales the mesh in totally the wrong way ??...

yeah you sort of have it,.. but you have created more problems to solve to have it working in a real project ?

Man Dodgy you could have learn Maya's or XSI standard tool set in 1/10 of the time and got it
but instead you have spent alot more of time " trying " to do it in LW and still not got getting anywhere near the workflow ?

Dodgy
06-29-2007, 05:42 AM
Sorry, I meant the muscle bone plugin, I confused myself by having one called make stretchy :)

That was just a proof of concept rig. It took me 5mins to setup, just to show you could do stetchy IK. When I set it up, I used the Make Muscle bone which sets motion channels of the muscle bone to Target, which you don't need for this kind of rig, it should have just been keyframes.

Of course you can add in a knee goal, and even pipe its position into the knee bone to get the same effect. It's really not that complex. How would the bones scale the mesh in completely the wrong way? They just scale along the z axis, which is what you want? If I put a mesh in there and rest all the bones it works perfectly... What are you doing?

t4d
06-29-2007, 06:34 AM
hey Dodgy
90% of me thinks they is NO freak'n way you can do that rig i done in XSI in LW.

I know LW enough to "think" i know lightwave's limits ;)

But hey 10% thinks,... man LW sucks sometimes it's sometimes just a matter of a Trick or a workaround hidden somewhere that may let you do it

So please go ahead, please reproduce that rig video using LW
but make sure you have a mesh with a foot and have hips to show the deformation and the effects before and after the chain and show the same range of movement ( no need to have the same controls ) just the same level of control. ;)

I would love to see it =)

Dodgy
06-29-2007, 10:47 AM
Well I'm not sure exactly what I'm aiming for, but here's a quick first try. Maybe you can tell me what you want out of the rig.

adamredwoods
06-29-2007, 11:49 AM
Interesting.

I don't think all your values were set correctly in the file, but that's ok I see your point. Here's an attached file to what I think you were getting at.

the MAIN null controls the IK.
Your KNEE bone controls the actual stretching...?
I also didn't think to stretch bones based on positions of other bones. Which seems to work out well. ESPECIALLY, since LW calculates the IK after the length changes. Very, very nice to know. :)

My original thought was one null controls the IK and if that null goes beyond the IK's limit, the leg stretches to 'keep null in reach'. Otherwise the rig behaves like a normal IK. But is this how it's used in the pipeline?


Ultimately, I'm still trying to figure out how S&S is used in an IK system. It's easy to visualize in the body portion, but I'd like to see it in 3D animation. Anyone have any examples from 3D movies or shorts?

Thanks for the demos Dodgy!
//Adam

Chris S. (Fez)
06-29-2007, 02:56 PM
Squash and stretch is a staple of all Pixar movies, but pick pretty much any Skrat animation in Ice Age. His little limbs are like silly puddy.

t4d
06-29-2007, 10:06 PM
Man come on guys those scenes were just shocking :confused:

did you watch the video I posted ?? ,..Here it is again
http://www.thomas4d.com/legexsample.rar

because those LW scenes are just un-useable for a real character project ..aren't they ?

when you can clearly see That the XSI leg video is very useable

and you need an explaination of S&S ?

OK simple terms Squash and stretch is 3D trying to do what 2D animators
many exsamples in all Warner brothers, Disney cartoons etc etc

Basicly it's the next level in Character rigging

LW can only do Rotation based rigs
( IK plays a part in controling the rotations so you also have those issues of LW not having very good IK to deal with )

Today we have Shaped based rigs as well.
Where you have basicly 2 ( or more ) layers of rigging on the one rig

in my XSI leg you have the foot and a Leg direction control ( standard stuff really ) then you have the knee position That is relative to the Standard IK knee's position but you can place the Mesh knee any where you want. and the scaleing of the leg bones are not effect by rest position or any of that odd rotating stuff you have in those LW rigs..

again check this out (http://www.squarerocket.com/videos/demo_rig2.mov) to show you many MANY more tricks that can be done with shape based rigs. ( I'm still trying to work out how the guy done some of that stuff :confused: ( the main body stuff is just super !!! ) but it's a great exsample of a shape based rig.

and this area of rigging is growing and inventing new methods and tricks all the time.!! :D ( I would think Cid's rig in Iceage 1 & 2 would be pretty old hat for Blue sky now )

LW was already behide in the rotation based IK rigs,. It needs an pretty big kick to catch up to the shape base rigs.

I hope it comes soon or maybe seeing SG and you guys are happy with what you have ?? NT may just leave it the way it's been since V6 ?...

Chris S. (Fez)
06-30-2007, 01:06 AM
I hope it comes soon or maybe seeing SG and you guys are happy with what you have ?? NT may just leave it the way it's been since V6 ?...

I think Dodgy's scene was a respectable first pass for a scene he scraped together in 5 minutes. I hope, Dodgy, that Thomas does not dissuade you from continuing your experimentations.

Thomas,

Jay has specifically stated that the Newtek team is aware of Lightwave's shortcomings in regards to Character Animation.

IMO, inviting a precious member of this community like Dodgy to dump Lightwave for XSI is inappropriate in Newtek's own forums.

Please don't take this as a personal attack.

In any case, I am looking forward to seeing your new short:) !

t4d
06-30-2007, 01:27 AM
IMO, inviting a precious member of this community like Dodgy to dump Lightwave for XSI is inappropriate in Newtek's own forums.
!

well I didn't invite Dodgy I just said it would be quicker to just learn Maya's or XSI system ( I think Dodgy has access to maya ? ) then to spend time developing plugins and workflow in LW's current system.

Yes alittle wrong
but it's just like saying for a water animation ,. Go get blender and learn that system and bring the data back to LW, if you need a liquid sim it's far better time wise then trying to get a liquid sim from LW's current system.

I see no differents,. sorry If it offenced anyone :bowdown:

Chris S. (Fez)
06-30-2007, 01:50 AM
Yes alittle wrong
but it's just like saying for a water animation ,. Go get blender and learn that system and bring the data back to LW, if you need a liquid sim it's far better time wise then trying to get a liquid sim from LW's current system.

I see no differents,. sorry If it offenced anyone :bowdown:

Well, I guess when you look at it that way your post is possibly appropriate:D .

Lightwave has recently lost some valuable community members to other apps. Just don't want to lose the likes of Dodgy!