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cc3d
06-10-2007, 01:26 PM
I hear a lot about people building new PCs and anxious to get going with Vista. I too was anxious to get into Vista and see what features would help me out.

First let me say that, while I am not the founding (or any type of) member of the Bill Gates fan club, I am a fan of Windows XP. Over many years of computing on different platforms (Unix, C64, Amiga, Mac, DOS, 3.1, NT, etc.) common sense led me to the WinTel boxes.

Many say XP is old and has had it’s time, but nothing has made me appreciate it more than the last few months of Vista. I have been experiencing windows on 4 different PC’s

1. 3.0 gHz Pentium with 2 gb RAM and mediocre PCI graphics card (Vista home premium)

2. 2.0 gHz Celeron with 1 gb RAM (Vista Basic)

3. 2.4 gHz Core 2 Duo 6600 with 2 gb RAM (Vista Business ultimate)

4. 2.6 gHz Core 2 Quad 6700 with 2 gb RAM (Vista home premium)



How I Work

I’ve been using the Core 2 Duo 6600 Vista system as my primary PC in my office at work. It’s a dual video card/monitor setup . I generally use this PC for keeping several applications open at a time. MS Excel, MS Word, MS Outlook, CorelDraw, AutoCad plus several internet explorer windows open to manage databases. Occasionally I am using 3D Modeling applications and similar. I generally tax the system well. This is the way I have always worked and have done so with XP for a while now, so this isn’t something new for me, Vista is the only difference.

I use my Quad core system at home for the same type of work, maybe more graphics intense as I do 3D rendering and the like with this box as well. I can switch this system back overt o XP by swapping an alternate drive in.

3.0 ghz P4 system I use for recording shows at home and watching TV while I am working. I occasionally burn DVDs and CDs from this system and swap shows back and forth to another Media Center PC (XP) in the house.

The 2.0 gHz Celeron system is used the least and it’s no surprise that it performs the best in my review.

What I like about Vista


Program manager is well organized.

Network connection manager is nice.

The search options are turbo charged. I think this may be the reason everything else is friggin’ slow! I haven’t researched this, but I would think that Vista indexes everything the moment it comes in contact with it.

What I don’t like about vista

Number One, responsiveness: Instead of an hour-glass, Vista has a little blue donut circle that swirls when Vista is “thinking” I hate this thing. Let’s call it the Little Blue Donut From Hell! (LBDFH) Because of the way it looks? No! Because I see it ALL THE TIME! Vista gets in moods where it has to think about EVERYTHING! In Windows XP, when you wanted to search for files, you did the find files command and then XP went to work. I understand that Vista indexes everything incrementally so that when you execute a search, the items pop up instantaneously. If this is what is happening, it sucks. Even if this is NOT what is happening, it sucks.

Sometimes, when I switch from Excel to Word “thinking……….” For about 60, 90 120 seconds. “VISTA: Do you want to allow this?” Enough for me to want to break things. I get REAL impatient and then “thinking… (LBDFH)” So I CTRL-ALT-DEL to the task manager and “thinking… (LBDFH)” I kill the process “VISTA: Do you want to allow this?” I say yes and then “thinking… (LBDFH)” and finally the process dies.

At this point I boot Word back up and open a file. I need to go up a level form the default directory the prompt opens to. I click to go up a level and “thinking… (LBDFH)”, “thinking… (LBDFH)” “thinking… (LBDFH“thinking… (LBDFH)” rinse and repeat “thinking… (LBDFH“thinking… (LBDFH)”, “thinking… (LBDFH)” ARRRRGHGHGH!! CTRL-ALT-DEL CTRL-ALT-DEL BEAT the keyboard! ARRRRGHGHGH!!

Get the picture? This happens a LOT. Even on the two most powerful machines. The Quad core system has an 8800 GTX and scores 12000+ on 3DMark06. It’s not a machine issue. By the way, I am still talking about the FIRST thing I don’t like about Vista, the Little Blue Donut From Hell! The bottom line here is that Vista is a sluggish mush of nastiness in terms of “responsiveness”

Number Two, Security: I am not sure if I should give Vista high marks or low marks for the same reason in relation to security. Allow this? Don’t Allow this? Allow this? Don’t Allow this? Allow this? Don’t Allow this? Allow this? Don’t Allow this? ARRGGGHH! You get this so much that it’s useless. Eventually I’m going to allow something I shouldn’t just because I’ve NEVER chosen NOT to allow something.

[Before you Mac heads get too giddy about all of this, remember that Mac OS in it’s best form still sucks and I’d choose Vista on 200 mhz P2 over the latest mulch-eating Macintosh!]

Number Three, interface is designed for idiots. Everything defaults to too big. Some things are oversimplified. Perhaps this is an attempt to bring over the Macintards. Maybe an option to disable the right mouse button would help this effort.

Number Four, drivers. This should be expected, but I was quite surprised at the things I can NOT get to work on Vista. My HP Photosmart 7760 printer works well, but I can’t get the HP Photosmart 1000 printer to work. I can get the HP Photosmart 970 printer. Go figure?

Number Five, Digital rights management. I had to remove Nero Ultra 7 before installing Vista on all four machines. Why? I guess to make sure you can’t copy ANY cds on Vista. I’ve not spent a lot of time with it (I’m sure there’s a way), but I’ve found no way to duplicate a cd in Vista.

Number Six, hardware changes. I upgraded from 2 x 7800GT (SLI) to 1 8800GTX and Vista told me my machine had changed too much and I had to call Microsoft to get it straightened out. A month later, Vista told me the same thing for no reason at all. Had to call MS again.

Summary

I see no reason to stay with Vista right now. It impedes my work greatly. The frustration I get from my Vista machines right now will eventually cost me a keyboard or whatever I break close by. The only reason I’m drawn to Vista at all is the lure of DX10 for upcoming games like Crysis.

Additional note: MS Office 2007. Don’t do it! I’ve been a programmer since 1981, I’ve used hundreds of software packages over the last 25+ years. The question I have for Microsoft; why? I guess Microsoft is using the same technique that golf club manufacturers use to sell new clubs; change the way it looks, change the name, we have a new product! Was there a contest for worst GUI design they could come up with or what?! I’ve used Excel since version 0.5 and now I find moments when I’m in a lull trying to find the friggin’ command I need. My advice, stay away from it.

[from Articles on www.tccook.com 6.10.07]

ShawnStovall
06-10-2007, 02:21 PM
You could always do what I did, get a second hard drive(or partition a part of your current one) and install XP on one and Vista on the other.

Jim_C
06-10-2007, 02:44 PM
What I do is: Disable UAC, disable the SuperFetch service and disable the incremental shadow copy backups. No more Vista HD grinding. After that I have had absolutely no problems and I can't say I recognize your problem with the twirling circle thingy.

What happens if you don't disable all that?

If you have to turn off new features in order to responsiveness.... well that ain't good....

Alliante
06-10-2007, 06:51 PM
For those who don't need it, UAC is just fine to turn off. It's doing its intended "Sixpack Joe" user. :)

Dodgy
06-10-2007, 09:07 PM
But it begs the question, is the six pack user qualified to decide whether to allow something or not? Surely they're going to make the same ill informed decision they did on actually double clicking on the something the caused the question, i.e. 'Yes'. All it does is annoy people and makes them so used to clicking 'yes' that they'll ignore it most of the time, and get annoyed with it the rest, and then ask knowledgeable bods (me) about how to turn it off. I really can't see how it's an improvement over xp. In tests it was 10% slower on average than xp, okay that's to be expected with new drivers syndrome, but are there any benefits actually worth it?

jin choung
06-10-2007, 09:24 PM
hey cc3d,

so how about it? didja try neverko's optimization techniques? any improvement?

jin

acocq
06-11-2007, 03:18 AM
Just to chime in ... my 2-cents worth...

Had my favorite online hardware shop put together a new PC (DualCore2 E6600, MSI MB, 8800GTS, 2 x 500GB Samsung HD, 4 GB RAM). Purchased a Vista Home Premium license (32-Bit)... and yes, I know it only addresses approx. 3GB RAM.

1.) Installation was not possible. Got a BSOD (Blue Screen Of Death) when I booted from the VISTA DVD. :thumbsdow

As it turns out, VISTA could not be installed if your PC has more than 3GB RAM installed (apparently this goes for 32bit and 64bit versions).

Suggested solutions: a.) remove 2GB RAM, install VISTA, reinstall RAM or b.) copy the DVD content to the hard disk and do a "flat install" from the hard disk.

I did not want to touch the hardware (and also point blank refuse to remove RAM, just so I can install my OS ... come on ... this is 2007 ... 64-bit OS are readily available ... RAM is cheap).

So I installed an old version of XP that I have (had to jump through hoops because it was originally tied to an old, now defunct PC ... but that's a different story). Then I installed VISTA from the harddisk (incl. all online updates)

2.) After running for a while (ca. 30 minutes), I kept getting harddisk errors, VISTA kept telling me that it could not write to the harddisk.

After doing a disk diagnostic (and finding no errors), I tried to reboot VISTA and it did not boot but came up with an error message.

Reinstalled VISTA ... same issue.

3.) While it was running, I tried to get drivers for some of the (older) hardware I have ... and found out that certain drivers are still missing and some manufacturers say they won't publish VISTA drivers for old hardware.

---------------------------------------------------

After all this, I decided to head back to WinXP ... have that now up and running for 6 weeks and everything is working just fine (incl. my NAS-drive setup).

I had originally considered VISTA 64bit, because of the 4GB RAM I purchased, but was dissuaded by negativ comments I heard about the 64bit version. But after my bout with VISTA 32bit, I will avoid VISTA for the next 5 years.

And by then, maybe Linux will be a better alternative (I did install SUSE and Ubuntu and both installed a lot faster than VISTA ... but getting drivers for new hardware can be an issue).... I know that I'm ready to leave MicroSoft behind.

Cheers,
Andreas

Bitboy
06-11-2007, 04:04 AM
I'm on Neverko's side in this. I've been using Vista Ultimate (and installed on a Duo Core 2 with 4 GB RAM) and it has behaved better for me than XP ever did. No Blue Ring Of Death (cop donuts?), and I've also disabled UAC.

Drivers: I've actually only had to install drivers when I need the latest NVidia driver or when a Vista driver was recently released directly from the manufacturer. Everything else (except an old USB CD-RW drive) were handled fine by Vista. Agreed in the beginning you had to go look for certain drivers but you also have to do this on XP so I cannot see the downside regarding Vista here. Here I give Vista the thumbs up. It just handles it better IMHO.

I've had very few problems with programs that won't work, again check that it works with the XP SP2 compatability settings before giving up.

And don't blame Vista as the first thing. The hardware permutations are endless with all the different parts that there is available today and it won't always 'play ball' with you from the beginning. I've had my share of frustrations with different hardware.

So if you know what Vista serves you and how to make it work the way you want it, then you're much better off. UAC is a pain yes, but in general terms it's good for Joe User (my parents for example :) ) since they don't know a lot about PC's compared to an expert/advanced user.

toby
06-11-2007, 04:41 AM
[Before you Mac heads get too giddy about all of this, remember that Mac OS in itís best form still sucks and Iíd choose Vista on 200 mhz P2 over the latest mulch-eating Macintosh!]

Number Three, interface is designed for idiots. Everything defaults to too big. Some things are oversimplified. Perhaps this is an attempt to bring over the Macintards. Maybe an option to disable the right mouse button would help this effort.
It's amazing how much MS crap you guys put up with and yet talk sh** to people who've left it behind. You've just listed more problems than I've ever had with Windows, which is already more than enough for me to prefer OSX.


Iíve been using the Core 2 Duo 6600 Vista system as my primary PC in my office at work. Itís a dual video card/monitor setup . I generally use this PC for keeping several applications open at a time. MS Excel, MS Word, MS Outlook, CorelDraw, AutoCad plus several internet explorer windows open to manage databases. Occasionally I am using 3D Modeling applications and similar. I generally tax the system well.
That's amazing, I guess with a machine that's powerful enough, Windows can multi-task as well as my dual 450 did 5 years ago.

And before you MS lovers get on my case, take a look at who started slinging insults, completely unprovoked.

Exception
06-11-2007, 05:07 AM
Whatever gets the job done.
Thanks for the report cc3d. I certainly won't be switching anytime soon :)

Windows xp certainly doesn't get the job done most of the time. I need to reinstall the system ever 6 months or so. Meanwhile with each automatic update the system gets a little bit slower and less responsive. It fragements your memory, leaves junk all over the place, is like a free open banquet for virusses and malware, and their business ethics just reek.

I don't like MAC, just a personal preference, but it's really foolish to not recognise the security and stability of a true *nix system.

Been playing with Ubuntu with Beryl installed recently. If PS, Lightwave and Autocad ran on it, I'd switch in a heartbeat. Unforntunately, the only one of those three most likely to be availble for linux is Lighwave, and that isn't happening soon. :(

mattclary
06-11-2007, 05:53 AM
Wow, this thread went south fast. :jester:

starbase1
06-11-2007, 08:38 AM
Vista 32-bit installs just fine with 4Gb RAM. It could be something relating to your motherboard and BIOS.

It's definitely not Vista's fault alone. People are too hasty to blame the OS when in fact it's more likely hardware related. The problem is that people assume that the hardware they bought is perfect, when in fact there's a lot of issues with a lot of mobos, BIOS, chipsets etc. It's just sometimes easier to blame the OS :) 4Gb setups in particular can still be iffy on many motherboards, so I guess you've run in to a chipset/BIOS conflict with something pertaining to Vista - even a bad mobo driver or part of a driver. So maybe blame MSI for bad Vista support?

Bottom line is that Vista 32-bit installs and works perfectly with 4Gb, at least on my rig :)

Well, fair comment, but I do think you can blame Vista for giving such wildly innacurate error messages...

starbase1
06-11-2007, 08:43 AM
Whatever gets the job done.
Thanks for the report cc3d. I certainly won't be switching anytime soon :)

Windows xp certainly doesn't get the job done most of the time. I need to reinstall the system ever 6 months or so. Meanwhile with each automatic update the system gets a little bit slower and less responsive. It fragements your memory, leaves junk all over the place, is like a free open banquet for virusses and malware, and their business ethics just reek.
(

:agree:

Worse than that - I had it go into a loop trying to remove some malware it thought it found but could not clean up, endless reboots. Or the way that it would download something and then decide to reboot my machine which was happily rendering in the meantime. Or software 'downgrades' to remove functionality they decide you can't have (media player stuff)...

Microsoft need to unmderstand that its MY computer, not theirs.

BeeVee
06-11-2007, 09:12 AM
Directory Opus handles UAC really well without having to turn it off and lose all its security benefits. Have a look at this demonstration (http://nudel.dopus.com/opus9/page4.html#vistauac) and the others on these pages, and then try the demo - it's 60-days and if you need convincing at the end of that period, there's a voucher for a 10% discount on www.lightwiki.com

B

iainbyoung
06-11-2007, 10:04 AM
Windows xp certainly doesn't get the job done most of the time. I need to reinstall the system ever 6 months or so.

What on earth do you do with the machine? My XP development machine at work is still on it's original install, and is still as quick as it was when I got it (over 5 years ago). Never needed to do anything other than install windows updates, and they certainly haven't affected the performance.


It fragements your memory

I've never noticed that, and Vista ceratinly doesn't (it has superb memory handling).


leaves junk all over the place

That's dodgy software installs that do that, not the operating system.


I don't like MAC, just a personal preference, but it's really foolish to not recognise the security and stability of a true *nix system.

Ubuntu (which you mentioned that you use) isn't a true *nix system, and besides, have you seen how many security patches there have been for Linux :D

Vista is great. Im running 64bit Ultimate on my E6600 machine (overclocked to 3.1ghz with 4gb ram and an 8800gtx), and it's quick, stable, secure, and runs all of my software very well (including Lightwave 9.2, SpeedEdit, Photoshop CS2, DVD Lab Pro, Visual Studio 2005, plus a selection of games).

Don't blame MS if your hardware isn't compatible or the device drivers aren't up to scratch...

Captain Obvious
06-11-2007, 10:10 AM
In Windows XP, when you wanted to search for files, you did the find files command and then XP went to work.
No. In XP, when you want to search, you tell the little yellow dog to search. It does its thing and goes "no files found," despite the existence of files matching your criteria! Search in XP is bloody useless, compared to Vista and Mac OS X and Linux and everything else under the sun.



As for responsiveness, XP is hardly the most responsive OS in the world. It's fine when you're not stressing the machine, but try to do stuff while rendering. It's not funny. My iBook is more responsive while the CPU is peaked than my quad-core XPS is.

Captain Obvious
06-11-2007, 10:46 AM
and besides, have you seen how many security patches there have been for Linux
I know this was probably a tongue-in-cheek comment, but still... You can't measure the safety of an OS by the number of patches.


Edit: Also, I rather like Vista. Most of my annoyances* with Windows are still not fixed, but hey, it's better than XP!

*Most of which are a matter of personal preference; I don't like the "activity-centric" metaphore. I prefer the application-centric approach of OS X, though I can see how both have pros and cons.

acocq
06-11-2007, 01:02 PM
Vista 32-bit installs just fine with 4Gb RAM. It could be something relating to your motherboard and BIOS.

Bottom line is that Vista 32-bit installs and works perfectly with 4Gb, at least on my rig :)

Well, the solution for it (removing RAM) came directly off the MS support pages.
Obviously, the install routine worked for you. Obviously it did not on my (brand new) system.
Obviously this was an issue that MS became aware of and posted the proposed solution in their knowledge base (I don't have the link handy, but I remember that it took me forever to find it :stumped: )

I have no inherent objection to Vista (and XP was the first MS OS that I felt I could rely on). Who knows ... maybe if I have the time to fiddle with it, I get the 64-bit version, just to give it a try :hey:

Cheers,
Andreas

iainbyoung
06-11-2007, 01:33 PM
I know this was probably a tongue-in-cheek comment, but still... You can't measure the safety of an OS by the number of patches.

Very true :D

On the flip side however, if patches have been released it means there must have been (and still are) holes ;)


Well, the solution for it (removing RAM) came directly off the MS support pages.
Obviously, the install routine worked for you. Obviously it did not on my (brand new) system.

That still doesn't mean that it's a flaw in Vista. It just means that Microsoft has found a workaround. Most things like that are usually fixed via a bios update. I know I've just built myself a new rig this week, and Vista 64bit installed fine with 4gb of ram, which does suggest you may have something bios related rather than a software problem...

Exception
06-11-2007, 01:33 PM
What on earth do you do with the machine?

Everything imaginable on a computer.


My XP development machine at work is still on it's original install, and is still as quick as it was when I got it (over 5 years ago). Never needed to do anything other than install windows updates, and they certainly haven't affected the performance.

That's great, and I'm happy for you. If you don't install your system once and then hardly install anything again, or don't a great variety of tasks on it, I'm sure it works great. But that's not the reality that the computers around me live in.


I've never noticed that, and Vista ceratinly doesn't (it has superb memory handling).
Well, let's put it this way... if I start the day with a fresh boot, launch autcad, PS, lightwave, last.fm, illustrator and indesign, the permanently running applications on my computer, and work in them throughout the day, closing one of these programs can take over 5 minutes at the end of the day, if the system doesn't just spend eternity trying to close illustrator. In the morning it would've been fine, after a day of working: worthless. I'm not even going to describe working in that state... extremely slow redraws, programs bieng laeled nonresponsive when they are fine, explorer windows taking minutes to come up, drives taking minutes to even show their contents... blahblah


That's dodgy software installs that do that, not the operating system.

I call all those backup folders in my system directory junk. All those cache files that internet explorer makes while I don't even use it, all those thumbs.log files or whatever they're called... the amount of junk in my temp directories are inexcuseable... and they never go away, I have to do it manually... And those are just of the OS, as I keep track of what program writes what in there.


Ubuntu (which you mentioned that you use) isn't a true *nix system, and besides, have you seen how many security patches there have been for Linux :D

I was talking about MacOS.
Have you seen how many security patches there are for windows? You're not going to argue that windows is more secure or stable than linux, hopefully?


Don't blame MS if your hardware isn't compatible or the device drivers aren't up to scratch...

My hardware and drivers are just fine and up to date.
I also just checked the size of my windows xp directory on a simple laptop... 2.8GB... If that is not a bloated OS, I don't know what is. And besides the fonts... I don't have anything to do with what's in there.

iainbyoung
06-11-2007, 01:42 PM
That's great, and I'm happy for you. If you don't install your system once and then hardly install anything again, or don't a great variety of tasks on it, I'm sure it works great. But that's not the reality that the computers around me live in.

I'm a software developer. I'm installing and uninstalling things all the time. Mostly of beta quality (or worse). Never had to reinstall the opertaing system. Without exception the slowdowns I've seen in XP have been to do with the 3rd party software installed on the machine. Nothing to do with XP itself.



Well, let's put it this way... if I start the day with a fresh boot, launch autcad, PS, lightwave, last.fm, illustrator and indesign, the permanently running applications on my computer, and work in them throughout the day, closing one of these programs can take over 5 minutes at the end of the day, if the system doesn't just spend eternity trying to close illustrator.

That sounds almost certainly like a memory / resource leak in Illustrator. Nothing to do with XP at all.


I call all those backup folders in my system directory junk. All those cache files that internet explorer makes while I don't even use it, all those thumbs.log files or whatever they're called... the amount of junk in my temp directories are inexcuseable... and they never go away, I have to do it manually... And those are just of the OS, as I keep track of what program writes what in there.

Most of that can be configured away :)



Have you seen how many security patches there are for windows? You're not going to argue that windows is more secure or stable than linux, hopefully?

Actually my Linux box at work is quite unstable, (but I think it's a hardware thing) :D



My hardware and drivers are just fine and up to date.

Tha doesn't mean that they don't contain bugs though. I've known developers (especially nvidia) release drivers with horrible bugs in them.

ghostlight
06-11-2007, 04:43 PM
I like how my Mac just works. Always.

toby
06-12-2007, 12:28 AM
Choosing to be Mac user is a trendy lifestyle choice

That's complete bullsh**. Disliking garbage is not a "trendy lifestyle choice". You're someone who hates Apple's marketing, but it seems you actually fall for it!

Now tell us some more about how great windows is... once you've reprogrammed it, learned how to maintain it like an admin and have found out what motherboard and graphics card to use.

Caveboy
06-12-2007, 01:22 AM
I think he means that if you uninstall something, it leaves a mess behind and fuc*s up the registry.

Of course, if you don't realize this, you waste hours editing the registry (a load of fun!) and realize that you wish that XP should have recommended to run the program WinSockXPFix to fix it (found on the internet).

Or maybe you found out after you reinstalled windows yet again.

That's what I think he met. :)

if you ever have problems with windows, try WinSockXPFix. Or stay away from the internet.

I heard that Microsoft is going to replace Vista in a couple years anyway. So have fun while you can! :P


Dan

toby
06-12-2007, 02:23 AM
I didn't mean that I think it's trendy. I mean that people like you buy it because "it's trendy" - because you buy into Apple's see-through marketing.
I've given you so many solid reasons to prefer OSX that you'd have to be a complete moron to believe that. Just go back to any of our previous arguments for a refresher.



You make it sound like actually knowing something about computers and being able to tune and customize them to your exact liking, is bad! :D
Read it again. Where did I imply that was bad? How could it possibly be taken that way? Clearly I meant that if it's REQUIRED, then there's a problem.

And this is not the first time I've heard that comment either. This is the crux of the mac-hater argument - a smug, superiority attitude towards anyone who doesn't know how to rig their own f'ing BIOS or registry or do an admin's job. This is the second time this has reared it's ugly head in this thread. We don't need this crap on the forums.

Your comment also ignores the fact that if an operating system requires every user to perform admin tasks just to keep it from running like crap, it is a crappy system, in the same way as if you had to be a mechanic just to use your car every day - it means that your car is junk.

acocq
06-12-2007, 02:37 AM
I can't recall having registry problems, ever. And I don't see how a potentially crappy uninstaller that leaves a few bits behind is Windows' problem? That argument simply doesn't float. You can not blame crappy 3rd party programming on Windows.

Seriously though, the registry can be a problem. If you only install 10 applications and then run windows, no problem. Your system will run swiftly and stable.

But I have seen my registry grow over the course of 2.5 years to a whopping 39MBytes (partially due to the fact that I like to install new apps or upgrades). Apparently Windows parses the registry at least when it boots, so the fact that the registry increases in size does have an impact. The "solution" to reinstall Windows lets it shrink down to about 1/3 of that size.

And yes, there may be some apps that are "bad" in terms of de-installation, but it's also a problem with garbage collection in general.

I want plain ASCII config files ... like Linux or Win3.11

Cheers,
Andreas

Captain Obvious
06-12-2007, 03:42 AM
The products they sell are subpar at best, I call them trash products.
In my experience (and I've been using Macs since 1992), they're very high quality.




I just never have to deal with OS crap like this in Windows.
And for me, it's been the other way around. Ie, YOUR MILEAGE VARIES.

Phil
06-12-2007, 04:03 AM
As a Mac newcomer, I'll chime in just to note that using OS X has been perfectly easy. I miss the uninstallers from Windows, though, which at least made a token effort to remove junk....the proliferation of preference files and application support folders under OS X is a little irritating.

I'm just grateful that I don't need to download hundreds of tiny update files to get the system up to scratch should I ever need to reinstall (unlike Windows) - one combo updater catches everything on the OS side.

I'm also not missing the need to run, and keep updated, a virus checker and spyware tool.

I do miss the NTFS file compression system, though. Handy on laptop drives where space rapidly runs out.

starbase1
06-12-2007, 04:04 AM
I can't recall having registry problems, ever. And I don't see how a potentially crappy uninstaller that leaves a few bits behind is Windows' problem? That argument simply doesn't float. You can not blame crappy 3rd party programming on Windows.

I see where you are going, but some of this at least is Windows fault - all sorts of stuff does not unistall cleanly, leaving a right mess behind it, and a fragged registry is most definitely down to windows.

I see so much of it that I really think it is a deep problem with windows.

The microsoft line is that pretty much everything is part of the OS these days, look at their dogy claims that the web browser HAD to be superglued into it. And yet it's NOT part of the OS to provide a clean simple uninstall mechanism?

iainbyoung
06-12-2007, 05:21 AM
That's very true. The Microsoft installer is actually quite good (I've written installs using it myself). Most (if not all) registry problems / garbage issues are caused by people using custom installers and not following the Microsoft guidelines for installation best practices.

iainbyoung
06-12-2007, 05:24 AM
I see where you are going, but some of this at least is Windows fault - all sorts of stuff does not unistall cleanly, leaving a right mess behind it, and a fragged registry is most definitely down to windows.


That's not a fault with windows. It's a fault with the uninstallers not being coded correctly.


And yet it's NOT part of the OS to provide a clean simple uninstall mechanism?

The install / uninstall mechanisms in Windows are actually pretty clean and simple to use. It's not entirely the fault of Microsoft if dodgy developers decide not to follow the rules...

ghostlight
06-12-2007, 05:15 PM
There are technically impaired people out there who don't even know how to connect a DVD player to their TV - let alone know what an uninstaller is. They should be able to use powerful computers without having to know how to fix them.

Likewise, is it fair to say that artists and animators shouldn't HAVE to be experts in anything other than the software they use?

Lightwolf
06-12-2007, 05:32 PM
There are technically impaired people out there who don't even know how to connect a DVD player to their TV - let alone know what an uninstaller is. They should be able to use powerful computers without having to know how to fix them.
There are people that can't drive and still roam the streets in a sports car. Life just isn't fair ;)
Of course they don't have to know how to fix them... but then they need to pay somebody to do so (be it using a service contract or whatever).

Likewise, is it fair to say that artists and animators shouldn't HAVE to be experts in anything other than the software they use?
Many aren't even that, and still good artists... and the contrary is true as well.
But it surely helps if you know what's going on ...

Cheers,
Mike

ghostlight
06-12-2007, 05:43 PM
Good points! Who wouldn't rather have a taxi driver who's also a mechanic?

cc3d
06-12-2007, 07:08 PM
As said before, most of this can be easily configured away in 5 minutes. Easy peasy and I do it.

If you think OSX is better, you're in for a surprise. It just hides it from you. Vista learned a trick from this and hides a ton of stuff as well, just like OSX. But you can still configure it away in 5 minutes.

I recall receiving regular security updates on my work Mac as well. Some freaking huge downloads some times! Even our old XServe dual G4 file server gets them for an older OSX version, all the time. :D

If macs were more prevelant, they'd have more security issues.

Years ago the macintosh was a computer, now it's an OS, 5 years from now it will be the portion of Windows that you have to have to get media to your ipod.

I've owned, managed, built/repaired dozens of macs along with many other flavors since ~1981. They crash like any other computer and if everyone keeps bragging about how secure they are, they'll get the greater attention of the hackers that will show that they have just as many security issues as any other OS.

Anyway, if anybody disagrees that Office 2007 sux, I'd like to hear why. I'm sure it doesn't suck on OSX, nothing does:hijack:

DiscreetFX
06-12-2007, 07:40 PM
I have not used Office 2007, but I believe you that it sucks. Microsoft is getting very tired and boring.

jay3d
06-12-2007, 09:05 PM
hi,

I suggest that to keep the comparison fair, compare with one type of vista at a time, like say the version you're using, Vista Home, Vista Home Premium, Vista Business, blah blah blah .. etc. :D

and see what version of Vi$ta is more likely to do compatibility problems
because i know that ultimate runs fine on all hardware :thumbsup:

3D Kiwi
06-12-2007, 09:20 PM
These kind of threads are so funny, its like a bunch of school kids fighting over who would win in a fight, spiderman or Yoda (Yoda would win of course)

Here you are complaining and fighting over something you have no control what so ever over, do you really think MS or Apple are reading these forums thinking, Man we better fix our OS to keep these Lightwavers Happy, of course not they are sitting there laughing there heads off.

So if you are going to go to the effort of talking about softwear, talk about what lightwave can take from XSI, Maya, Max or how to get around bugs in Lightwave with Vista, or Macs os or what ever, at least that is productive.

Sorry but these forums really are turning into a school yard, lets grow up a bit.

Jim_C
06-12-2007, 09:34 PM
I have not noticed any complaining or fighting in this thread.

Seems to be a nice debate of cool profossional people voicing opinions from all sides and about all kinds of soft'wear'.

Seems pretty grown up to me.

Andyjaggy
06-12-2007, 09:38 PM
Well it all comes down to this.

Would you rather see the blue donut of death or the spinning technicolor wheel of death. I use a Mac at work and a PC at home. They both suck. They both crash.


-Apple Crash Differently-

RonGC
06-12-2007, 09:48 PM
It is easy to get the nose out of joint over a new operating system. Mac osx was not at all very well received when it first came out, and a lot of Mac users were just as vocal about how much it sucked because it was nothing like os9. But over time the system matured and now it is hard to find a Mac user not using it.

Vista is a first release and it will need a couple more releases to mature, so give it some time. It might burn you up, but baby it ain't going away soon, so learn to deal with it.

Ron

toby
06-13-2007, 12:38 AM
It's coming from two different worlds, you talk about an "admin's job", like it's a highly specialized task to do a few simple things to make a computer run, I don't give a damn how simple it is, from my worlds' viewpoint, why the heck should I learn something like that, plus add more chores to my day, just because the richest software company in the world is too cheap to make a system that works on it's own?? And is useless if I'm rendering something? That makes NO sense. More work, and less functionality in return. Then you act like I'm stupid?? How do you think you look doing all that extra free work for Bill Gates?

As a former mechanic, I can tell you that tuning your carburetors is easy and fun, and you can make your car run really sweet. Does that convince you to go out and learn to do that, plus trade in your fuel-injected car for one with carburetors? Can I act like you're a stupid patsy if you don't?



or know a few basic things about hardware. Knowledge that is beyond easy to get from a few minutes using Google. I'm first and foremost an "application user" as in the fact that 99% of my work time is spent in various design packages. But it's certainly been beneficial to know the tools I use on a deeper level. The Macs here at work require very little maintenence and the PCs are exactly the same. However I have to deal with more issues under OSX, such as all sorts of weird file system bullsh*t where folders copied to desktops over our Gbit LAN will show as empty once opened, even though they are containing files. Drop them to an external disk and the files are there for viewing again. I just never have to deal with OS crap like this in Windows.
I see, you never have to deal with any problems whatsoever in Windows (like all those listed just in this thread), that's why you think it's important to know how to deal with them...?

IMI
06-13-2007, 12:59 AM
Not much interested in the Mac vs PC debate, but I can at least say this about Vista:
I installed Ultimate on a separate partition as a dual boot with XP Pro. I was curious and I figured I ought to have a copy of it anyway, since, as mentioned above, it's not going away.
It's...well, it's pretty. The blue donut is kind of hypnotic.
It took me nearly an hour just to get my Realtek Ethenet card to work. (It kept telling me it found the driver but couldn't install it, and do I want to search online for a better driver... ) Well, you know, Gee, I'd kinda like to do that, which is sort of the point...but, you know, if you're telling me my only internet connecting thingy isn't working and all...
Well, Vista IS pretty, at least.
I couldn't get 2/3 of my programs I tried installed on it, and about half the time I booted up it failed to load the drivers for my external USB DVD burner and/or my external USB hard drives....
But, it IS pretty.

Stooch
06-13-2007, 01:32 AM
lol it takes a mac user to argue about macs when this thread was created originally to completely tear windows apart int he first place. why get so defensive? i mean i see allot of spite being dished out but id have to say that so far MS has gotten the most of it. I really dont see any favorites here. so lets hear it. I personally find this a very informative thread that has greatly aided my current dilemma of going vista or not.

as far as osx. If it was truly as great as they try to make it sound, i would be using it now... duh.... Believe me, I TRIED HARD to like OSX (it has many nice features). but in the end it has nothing to do with fanboism, just cold hard facts (based on lots of hands-on experience in a working environment).

also i really don't mind hearing people talking smack about any OS. i find it funny and only really participate to get my debating rocks off. after all, its just a tool just like any other software (and its always funny to see people get all worked up over nothing)

3D Kiwi
06-13-2007, 01:42 AM
come on that was some of my best work, wrote it on XP, just imagine if i wrote it on Vista, would have been alot worse.

I wont contribute as it is a pointless thread.

Caveboy
06-13-2007, 02:17 AM
All I can say is:

MS Paint rocks!

Is it better in Vista?

I use windows xp at work. We develop games. No Vista! Not for at least 1 or 2 years! Maya crashes enough on XP as it is!

I use ctrl- alt - delete at least once a day - to kill a process or shut down. Elegant solution - NOT

:)

Exception
06-13-2007, 03:13 AM
Well, you know, it's hard to say anything here about anything without anyone jumping on it and pulling comments out of perspective and making it into an unpleasant argument.

Just like that people forget who they're talking to even if they've known them on the boards for years, and give them advice as if they've never seen a computer before.

Just to illustrate for thos ethat don't know, and for those that should know better...
We have 260 windows XP pro machines here, which develop serious problems the longer they have been installed. The heavier-use machines need to be restarted once a day. These machines are installed and maintained by a team of professionals. They run virus scanners, firewalls, anti spamware and other necessary but bloating protective software once every night, and usually find at least something.

We have 25 macs, which have problems of their own. They tend to be slower for mosts tasks, as hardware wise they're not as new as the pc's, but many people prefer working on them, which is their perogative. They need far less maintenance and daily upkeep and have less protective software running causing less overhead. They don't need to be rebooted more than once a week. They have a few obnoxious problems that are almost impossible to solve, especially in interfacing with the rest of the computer park, but workarounds work okay.

Our few linux servers never need to be rebooted and are under constant load. they provide effortless and rock solid performance, but they're very hard to set up and configure. Our win xp server ISS servers need manual intervention every other day.
And then there's my personal ubuntu install, which runs fine for days and days no matter what I install or configure, runs far smoother than anything else. I'm sure it can be crashed, it just doesn't happen with me.


My previous post about illustrator was just an example, as was clear from the posts. It happens with every major application. Autocad 07/08, 3ds Max, Lightwave, Vectorworks, hell, even winamp. Microsoft has always had a design philosophy that is insulting to professional users. Even the Windows XP 'professional' edition has the same horrible interface design mistakes as the home version. Anyone who has in any length studied interface design can't help but cry with each new version of windows. MacOS is not the perfect competition either, but at least it's consistent and not as completely against every design rule on the planet. (dudes, Yes is right, No is left...!).

Unforntunately we don't have a choice in our OS. Autocad is not available for MAC, nor are many programs available for linux. Therefore many of us are forced to use windows against their will. Just like people with ipods are forced to use itunes, which is just as bad (at least you can buy another mp3 player which doesn't need it, and you know this in advance).
I completely resent the business tactics of microsoft. the whole thing has been stolen from MacOS in the first place, which was in turn at least somewhat legitimately obtained from Xerox. I don't forget these things, nor the netscape wars, nor the intel-cartel forming, and using windows makes my hands feel dirty. But that's just a personal issue.

iainbyoung
06-13-2007, 03:41 AM
There are technically impaired people out there who don't even know how to connect a DVD player to their TV - let alone know what an uninstaller is. They should be able to use powerful computers without having to know how to fix them.

Agreed that consumers shouldn't need to know how to fix uninstall problems. Unfortunately these days the standard of programming in certain (even high profile) companies is not great. Build it quick, ship it fast, fix it later...

To use an analogy, you buy a Ferarri, get your local backstreet mechanic to service it, then moan about Ferrari when it breaks down...

Developers should have the knowledge to write an uninstaller that actually works properly (that's what they are paid for). It's really not that difficult to do...

iainbyoung
06-13-2007, 03:47 AM
Maya crashes enough on XP as it is!

That's a problem with Maya, not XP :D


I use ctrl- alt - delete at least once a day - to kill a process or shut down. Elegant solution - NOT

This is bizarre. I use XP / Vista for probably at least 12 hours a day, every day of the week, and I can't remember the last time I had to kill a process with task manager. All I can think is that people are using some very 3rd rate software...

Captain Obvious
06-13-2007, 04:28 AM
All I can think is that people are using some very 3rd rate software...
I kill Lightwave and Outlook that way a couple of times per week... :p

Andyjaggy
06-13-2007, 06:40 AM
All I can say is:

MS Paint rocks!

Is it better in Vista?

I use windows xp at work. We develop games. No Vista! Not for at least 1 or 2 years! Maya crashes enough on XP as it is!

I use ctrl- alt - delete at least once a day - to kill a process or shut down. Elegant solution - NOT

:)

Oh please. I use option Apple Escape just as much if not more then I have ever had to use CTRL ALT Delete

mattclary
06-13-2007, 06:44 AM
This guy sums up my opinion of Mac vs. PC better that I ever could. ;)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2006031,00.html

The main reason I can never buy a Mac is, I would then become a Mac user.

ghostlight
06-13-2007, 02:12 PM
He could make his opinion clearer.

toby
06-13-2007, 02:24 PM
lol it takes a mac user to argue about macs when this thread was created originally to completely tear windows apart int he first place.
What started the argument had little to do with either platform. It was the condescending schoolyard bs that continually pours from mac haters' mouths that started it. But I guess you guys think that we're 'weenies' if we don't let this blatant, obnoxious bias permeate the forums freely.


This guy sums up my opinion of Mac vs. PC better that I ever could.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...006031,00.html

The main reason I can never buy a Mac is, I would then become a Mac user.
That's great. Base your entire opinion of every mac user on a tv commercial, and one man's obvious, personnal, biased opinion. Stout logic.

Stooch
06-13-2007, 02:32 PM
That's a problem with Maya, not XP :D



This is bizarre. I use XP / Vista for probably at least 12 hours a day, every day of the week, and I can't remember the last time I had to kill a process with task manager. All I can think is that people are using some very 3rd rate software...

this is funny and off topic but in our production we are using 8.3 and i have to kill layout about 20-40 times a day when it hangs after every other test render (updating geometry or something like that)

some third rate software indeed ;)

Stooch
06-13-2007, 02:35 PM
What started the argument had little to do with either platform. It was the condescending schoolyard bs that continually pours from mac haters' mouths that started it. But I guess you guys think that we're 'weenies' if we don't let this blatant, obnoxious bias permeate the forums freely..

yes there are definitelly biases and you are just as guilty. because you chose to ignore the obvious flaming against windows in this post and decided to focus on the much less intense mac one - when in fact both are getting the same treatment. this is the most unbiased thread i have ever seen here as far as pcs vs macs ;) and how can you be biased when you have to use both platforms all the time? there is nothing wrong with forming an opinion.

mattclary
06-13-2007, 03:21 PM
That's great. Base your entire opinion of every mac user on a tv commercial, and one man's obvious, personnal, biased opinion. Stout logic.

Nope, my opinion is based on every encounter I've had with actual Mac users. The commercials just do an astoundingly good job of illustrating the reality of the situation.

Some mac users aren't too bad, I'll admit, but the majority of them seem to be tossers. ;)

Lightwolf
06-13-2007, 04:21 PM
OSX isn't even more secure in itself...
Actually, it is. For the simple reasons that it is a lot harder for apps to get admin privileges (there is also no default user account with admin privileges). This is basic Un*x/Linux procedure though.
Windows, having a different history of user management, isn't as strict as far as default privileges are concerned (Vista is changing that, to an extent) - which also means that a lot of apps actually require admin privilieges to run properly (which is the main culprit, if they wouldn't, Windows would be easier to tighten up).

Having said that, actual bugs and holes are in any OS - the question is what you can do once you get in - and the above reason makes is easier on Windows to cause havoc.... all in the name of backward compatibility (which is a big thing for MS - with that kind of a user base you don't just change the complete OS in a few years time).

Edit: Mind you, you can tighten up windows to be just as "secure" ... but this is not the default - and that is the problem.

Cheers,
Mike

iainbyoung
06-13-2007, 05:26 PM
some third rate software indeed ;)

The third rate sofwtare could be the display drivers that are causing Lightwave to crash. It's not always the app that is being run that is he cause of the problem. It's just the things that exhibits it :)

ghostlight
06-13-2007, 06:55 PM
My 8 year old Mac still works just fine and we use it for editing and compositing every day. However, I cannot stand the one-button mouse. That's why I got a Microsoft one. Mac also could use more games for sure. The Mac ads are a bit cold-hearted. It really comes down to what type of computer user you are. If you wanna tweak your system, then Windows it is. Me, I just want it to work and have one place that can answer my questions.

toby
06-13-2007, 07:47 PM
yes there are definitelly biases and you are just as guilty. because you chose to ignore the obvious flaming against windows in this post and decided to focus on the much less intense mac one - when in fact both are getting the same treatment. this is the most unbiased thread i have ever seen here as far as pcs vs macs ;) and how can you be biased when you have to use both platforms all the time? there is nothing wrong with forming an opinion.
Again, I'm not talking about Mac haters vs PC haters. I'm talking about Mac USER haters, sh*t talkers, the grade-school kind, vs the Windows USER haters - of which I don't see any. That's what started this argument. I don't jump down people's throat just because they complain about having problems on OSX. If you go back and re-read my posts you'll see that.


Nope, my opinion is based on every encounter I've had with actual Mac users. The commercials just do an astoundingly good job of illustrating the reality of the situation.

Some mac users aren't too bad, I'll admit, but the majority of them seem to be tossers. ;)
That's funny, none of the mac users I know dress like they're hosting on MTV. They're either engineers, video editors or programmers. There's one who's the most hardcore pro-Bush person I've ever met - so your experience seems rather limited. I guess it's just a coincidence that your experience and impression matches the stereotype perfectly.

Dave Jerrard
06-13-2007, 08:13 PM
There's one who's the most hardcore pro-Bush person I've ever met

Does he emanate an area of cold and darkness around him as well? :D


He Who Wonders If That Person Could Be The Anti-Christ.
:D :D

Andyjaggy
06-13-2007, 09:06 PM
Mac users are bad people.

jay3d
06-14-2007, 03:53 AM
Hi,

I don't know really what to say in that situation :confused:

I think no body is bad, everyone is trying to do the work as comfortable as he can and as painless as he can ...

so let's talk a little bit scientifically ... shall we?

for example a simple logical test will determine the benefits of the new and old systems on different platforms ... LightWave rendering times ...

if the rendering times due to the transition between XP and Vista varies for the better then Vista is good for any one that wants his rendering times be less ... otherwise stick to XP ...

the GUI interaction differences between OSs is a matter of used-to-do-it-that-way thing ...

personally i found it the best still to do file operations from the command line to avoid any errors or mistakes the GUI might provide ...

Mac OS X is still based on the Mach kernel with all the known shortcomings,
and FreeBSD for the rest of the OS ... and they keep on adding patches to an already tired design ... very good work till now but not yet perfect ...

Windows main problem is backward-compatibility-thinking, which everytime adds more bloat to the OS ... redesigning the OS from the beginning is the best currently ... Apple redesigned the OS three times already ... and the chance is better for Windows and almost painless because of the huge users base ...

the problem with Linux that there's no standards and no unified distribution standard that every Linux distribution comes with it's custom packaging system ... still developing though ...

again i say if the OS do your work as you used to do before and for the future with the speed and convenience that satisfy you so why bother upgrade and live in the pain of finding drivers? ... for ex. what Vista can do that XP cannot? ... give it some time so you will see some stable support for the platform ...

some might say that "I want to run the latest DX10 games!", i might ask him "Is the game worth of upgrading and break your software, better go for a Wii or PS3 or XBOX 360"

regards...
jay

Phil
06-14-2007, 04:00 AM
Mac users are bad people.

Why, thank you. I've been seeking that kind of label for years. Many a henchman has been lost to the sharks whilst trying to fit them for lasers. If I'd known that a preference for Mac was all it took, it would have saved a lot of paperwork and unmarked graves :D

Andyjaggy
06-14-2007, 04:01 AM
Why, thank you. I've been seeking that kind of label for years. Many a henchman has been lost to the sharks whilst trying to fit them for lasers. If I'd known that a preference for Mac was all it took, it would have saved a lot of paperwork and unmarked graves :D

:D Glad I could help.

mattclary
06-14-2007, 06:37 AM
Why, thank you. I've been seeking that kind of label for years. Many a henchman has been lost to the sharks whilst trying to fit them for lasers. If I'd known that a preference for Mac was all it took, it would have saved a lot of paperwork and unmarked graves :D

LOL! Excellent. :)


No, FRICKIN' excellent. ;)

starbase1
06-14-2007, 12:26 PM
I use a Mac at work and a PC at home. They both suck. They both crash.


Ah! So you are a Linux fan then?!?!
:devil: :D :devil: :D :devil:

On a more serious note, I see that those fine VM Ware people have made it possible for Mac users to run Windows applications without rebooting:

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39287556,00.htm

Mr Maze
06-14-2007, 12:57 PM
Wow, I can't believe I just read at least 35% of this thread.

Stooch
06-14-2007, 01:32 PM
Again, I'm not talking about Mac haters vs PC haters. I'm talking about Mac USER haters, sh*t talkers, the grade-school kind, vs the Windows USER haters - of which I don't see any. That's what started this argument. I don't jump down people's throat just because they complain about having problems on OSX. If you go back and re-read my posts you'll see that.


fair enough.

T-Light
06-15-2007, 04:24 AM
Been using 'puters since about 81. Never ever had so many problems as I've had with Vista this year. My Vista had an argument with LW a month or two back and they haven't been talking, in fact since that point, a lot of software hasn't been talking. Managed to get LW and Vista working again yesterday but it wasn't pretty, FPrime 3 kept crashing, Layout was spralling weird coloured line geometry all over the screen, perspective view would only redraw a small portion of the window etc etc. Please bear in mind that they worked perfectly together before Vista updated itself (read: stabbed itself in an artery). So any potential Vista Users, beware. :devil:


Technical rules of thumb if your thinking of diving into Vista...
Do as Neverko, survey the pool, Nice weighty bounce on the board, gracefully leap into the air, tips of the fingers outstretched and hit the water without leaving a ripple.
DONT do as I did, confidently stride along the board, skid at the end, panic, bounce for all its worth realising too late the only thing stopping you from making a complete arse of yourself is the right edge of the board which with years of finely honed skill you deftly catch full force with both nadgers.

Having your paralysed body fished from the water by kiddy pool attendants is embarrassing, don't do it!

Phil
06-15-2007, 04:43 AM
So far as I understand things, upgrading to Vista also means no roll-back to XP because they will no longer activate your XP copy. Is this correct? If so, it's a really nasty thing to do to upgraders; the piracy risk seems marginal, to be honest.

Mind you, Microsoft could really do with offering a family pack deal, similar to Apple. Upgrading multiple PCs to MS' newest offering will never be cheap.

T-Light
06-15-2007, 07:51 AM
Phil -

So far as I understand things, upgrading to Vista also means no roll-back to XP because they will no longer activate your XP copy. Is this correct? If so, it's a really nasty thing to do to upgraders; the piracy risk seems marginal, to be honest.
Yup, as far as I'm aware they cancel your xp license. No rollbacks, I think it maybe less down to piracy and more down to pure evil.

So evil in fact, that the word on the net the other week was that they're going to sue Linux users due to patent infringement!!!

That's ALL linux users folks :eek: :devil:

IMI
06-16-2007, 09:25 AM
Words cannot express the extreme sadistic pleasure I derived from wiping that nuisance known as Vista from my PC.
I enjoyed it so much, I'm thinking about installing it on my other PC, just to see it wiped clean later...later, after I've put it to the virus test to see what i can find to really hurt it badly.:twak:

Nicolas Jordan
06-16-2007, 10:08 AM
I'm considering a Mac for my next machine but the only thing holding me back is the fact that most of my software or software I am interested in getting does not run on Mac OSX. Bootcamp is a neat idea but it kinda defeats the purpose of using a Mac anyway. I may just wait until Vista gets a few good updates then get it as I really have no other options unless I can be content with a very limited 3d software library. I'm sure I am not the only one who feels this way. I really think there needs to be a larger variety of Operating Systems out there for PC users besides Windows and Linux.

IMI
06-16-2007, 10:26 AM
Well, I spent 400 bucks on Vista Ultimate the other day, and I'm a very unhappy camper about it.
I knew it was gonna be bad, but I also know I'm going to need it for future games and such so I figured I might as well start getting to know it. Oh well...

I agree about the Mac thing, though, and I think Vista is going to do wonders for sales of Mac's. ;)
The only Mac "experience" I have, is in watching a few people use one, plus seeing Dan Ablan's recent LW and modo video tutorials.
Obviously it works well with my favorite software. Would be nice if they were comparable in price to a good PC, though, then I'd buy one in an instant.

toby
06-16-2007, 12:37 PM
I'm considering a Mac for my next machine but the only thing holding me back is the fact that most of my software or software I am interested in getting does not run on Mac OSX. Bootcamp is a neat idea but it kinda defeats the purpose of using a Mac anyway. I may just wait until Vista gets a few good updates then get it as I really have no other options unless I can be content with a very limited 3d software library. I'm sure I am not the only one who feels this way. I really think there needs to be a larger variety of Operating Systems out there for PC users besides Windows and Linux.
Yea but then you run into the same software problem. Part of using a Mac is having a smaller variety of software, as it is with Linux, or anything other than Windows, because it does have the largest variety. Some of it is required for some jobs, some of it is 'must-have', but some of it's redundant, some of it's crap that will give you system problems, and some of it just adds convenience or coolness that you don't really need. For example I've never owned a PC at home, but that didn't stop me from getting into commercials or features.

IMI
06-16-2007, 01:12 PM
To effectively do 3D, how many apps does one really need, though?
LightWave runs on Mac, as does Photoshop and Painter, all Adobe software, various video compositing softwares, text editors, CD/DVD burning software.
And, serious up-and-comer's such as modo... not to mention all kinds of other software, such as browsers and various utilities.

Max doesn't, and I don't know about Maya, but the Good News is that, for alot of us, all the essential programs that we're used to are already available for OSX.

Even Intel processors and Nvidia video cards - maybe soon the ability to use different mobo's?

I'm hoping Apple will begin to take seriously the potential for them to seriously compete in the personal computer market, and come down on the prices a bit - the Vista "experience" for many could be a huge thing in Apple's favor if they jump on it while it's hot.

Nicolas Jordan
06-16-2007, 02:00 PM
Well, I spent 400 bucks on Vista Ultimate the other day, and I'm a very unhappy camper about it.
I knew it was gonna be bad, but I also know I'm going to need it for future games and such so I figured I might as well start getting to know it. Oh well...

I agree about the Mac thing, though, and I think Vista is going to do wonders for sales of Mac's. ;)
The only Mac "experience" I have, is in watching a few people use one, plus seeing Dan Ablan's recent LW and modo video tutorials.
Obviously it works well with my favorite software. Would be nice if they were comparable in price to a good PC, though, then I'd buy one in an instant.

Just curious, what kind of problems did you have with Vista?

IMI
06-16-2007, 02:44 PM
Just curious, what kind of problems did you have with Vista?


Well, I posted it earlier in this thread (at least I think it was in this thread), but the 1st major problem was Vista finding-but-apologizing-to-not-be-able-to install my Realtek Ethernet driver. If I hadn't been able to boot into XP, I'd have been SOL, because the cable modem didn't come with drivers, as it was designed for XP, which already has the driver for it.

Vista Ultimate regularly failed to load the drivers for my 2 external USB 2.0 devices - a HD and a DVD burner, after the fact that it had already "approved" them. And, there was a whole lot of rebooting going on, so I got to see the error messages of one or the other, often.

Vista took at least twice as long to boot as XP, and seemed...slooow.

Best yet, though, even under my XP boot, I was denied access to folders created under Vista, including those on the Fair Weather Friend external HD.
My Nvidia 7950 card manged to load the drivers, but acted all wrong.
Vista gave me innumerable memory errors, when the actual error was the fact that a program simply couldn't be installed under it - it did, in fact, recognize my 2 GB of RAM, though.

I never got to the point of installing my "higher" programs, such as LW, because I couldn't get past these innumerable problems. For example, I spent nearly an hour trying to get the Realtek driver to work, and when I plugged in my APC USB connector, all Hell broke loose; my Soundblaster software caused a crash in explorer.

Worst of all, I dicked around with all this so much I burned my dinner. Need I go on? ;)

Nicolas Jordan
06-16-2007, 03:05 PM
Well, I posted it earlier in this thread (at least I think it was in this thread), but the 1st major problem was Vista finding-but-apologizing-to-not-be-able-to install my Realtek Ethernet driver. If I hadn't been able to boot into XP, I'd have been SOL, because the cable modem didn't come with drivers, as it was designed for XP, which already has the driver for it.

Vista Ultimate regularly failed to load the drivers for my 2 external USB 2.0 devices - a HD and a DVD burner, after the fact that it had already "approved" them. And, there was a whole lot of rebooting going on, so I got to see the error messages of one or the other, often.

Vista took at least twice as long to boot as XP, and seemed...slooow.

Best yet, though, even under my XP boot, I was denied access to folders created under Vista, including those on the Fair Weather Friend external HD.
My Nvidia 7950 card manged to load the drivers, but acted all wrong.
Vista gave me innumerable memory errors, when the actual error was the fact that a program simply couldn't be installed under it - it did, in fact, recognize my 2 GB of RAM, though.

I never got to the point of installing my "higher" programs, such as LW, because I couldn't get past these innumerable problems. For example, I spent nearly an hour trying to get the Realtek driver to work, and when I plugged in my APC USB connector, all Hell broke loose; my Soundblaster software caused a crash in explorer.

Worst of all, I dicked around with all this so much I burned my dinner. Need I go on? ;)

Doesn't sound like a very good experience that's for sure. Hopefully Microsoft will rectify some of Vista problems with a Service Pack soon. If Vista doesn't improve dramatically I will likely make the transition to Mac within the year.

Mac must be a decent platform for 3D these days since guys like Dan Ablan and Brad Peebler seem to be using it for that stuff.

RonGC
06-16-2007, 03:20 PM
Trying to stick to one OS on one platform is just painting yourself into a corner, sooner or later it will not be up to running on the next Gen hardware/software.

Use the best that works for you in the present, but be prepared to switch to something else down the road even if it is not on your preferred platform.

Ron

starbase1
06-16-2007, 05:49 PM
One of the more predictable Microsoft lies is that they always claim the new new OS release is faster, even if you need to buy a much more powerful PC in order to run it at all...

Personally I am really hoping that the move of Apple onto Intel hardware will result in my being able to run their operating system as a boot option.

I'm not convinced it will be something I will stick with, but I would very much like to have the option. Even if it's no good at all, it should make Microsoft wake their ideas up if they face some serious competition.

Because right now I view Vista as a product so appallingly bad that it could only come from a lazy arrogant company assured of it's monopoly.

Lightwolf
06-16-2007, 06:04 PM
One of the more predictable Microsoft lies is that they always claim the new new OS release is faster, even if you need to buy a much more powerful PC in order to run it at all...

Actually, believe it or not, if you look at NT 3.51 -> NT 4.0 -> W2K -> XP that has always been true (even though a lot of people claimed otherwise back then, usual based on the RCs of the OS, while the final, gold version, was usually a lot faster).
Vista surely is a different beast, and I'll only try it if I need to buy a new machine to work on (then again, the same is true for Leopard).

Cheers,
Mike

JML
06-16-2007, 07:21 PM
well, vista works great here :)

and to me, vista feels a lot faster than XP.
it boots faster and all the applications just start quicker.
(and I have the same amount of apps installed on both)
I think that's because of "superfetch"
it takes some memory but it makes everything so much faster..
I think it's worth it..
some people disable it to save ram but if you have enough ram, keep it on.

just my 2 cents..

Nicolas Jordan
06-16-2007, 07:26 PM
well, vista works great here :)

and to me, vista feels a lot faster than XP.
it boots faster and all the applications just start quicker.
(and I have the same amount of apps installed on both)
I think that's because of "superfetch"
it takes some memory but it makes everything so much faster..
I think it's worth it..
some people disable it to save ram but if you have enough ram, keep it on.

just my 2 cents..

Sounds like Vista is screwy for some but smooth for others. Did you install Vista on your existing system or did you get a new machine with it already installed?

JML
06-16-2007, 07:29 PM
Sounds like Vista is screwy for some but smooth for others. Did you install Vista on your existing system or did you get a new machine with it already installed?

I upgraded from XP
that system is 2 years old, (I did upgrade the video card a few times)
(and added external usb drives..)

dual (singlecore) xeon 3.2Ghz, 3GB , ati x800 XT)

toby
06-16-2007, 07:39 PM
Does he emanate an area of cold and darkness around him as well? :D

He Who Wonders If That Person Could Be The Anti-Christ.
:D :D
Funny you should mention that :^P
(took a while to find it)

IMI
06-16-2007, 08:36 PM
Well I went and wiped clean my 8-month-old Gateway (single core 3 ghz Celeron D, 1 gig ddr400) which I use only for Office, Acrobat Pro, and other similar, non-intensive things.
And it works fine, much to my surprise, isn't causing any trouble...although I don't have much on it.
It didn't give me any trouble with my Canon printer, but my old scanner is a no-go. That didn't surprise me, and I lost the driver CD a long time ago. Need a new one anyway.

However, from what I've seen, it's going to be several Vista updates into the future before I allow it on my new machine, which I'm still building.

Qexit
06-17-2007, 04:14 AM
One of the more predictable Microsoft lies is that they always claim the new new OS release is faster, even if you need to buy a much more powerful PC in order to run it at all...Several years ago when I used to do PC support for a living, I came across an internal Microsoft Paper on O/S speeds and how they are perceived by users. It turns out, at least according to the research MS had carried out, that people believe an O/S runs faster if it boots faster even if it then runs applications slower. So to create the impression that their O/S was running faster, they removed a whole load of the system checks it carried out during boot up resulting in it booting up much faster and giving the user the immediate impression that it was therefore running faster. I think this was around 1998/99. I believe one of the results of this line of thinking was WinMe.....'nuff said :D

iainbyoung
06-17-2007, 05:23 AM
Im running vista 64 bit ultimate. It's fast, (quicker than XP when I was running before), and so far it has been 100% reliable. Not a single system crash since I installed it in January, (I've now go it running on 3 machines). It runs all of my software very well, and I've been very impressed so far :)

Alliante
06-17-2007, 02:40 PM
I had some issues with Vista in Jan on my Acer 8200 laptop, but since a few drivers got updated over the course of the month after vista was released. I've had no issues whatsoever. Nor have I had any issues on any of the other 3 machines I installed.

I never did an upgrade, it was always an install from an OEM disk after backing up the User folders (and reinstalling applications). I suggest this method to anyone wishing to upgrade ANY Microsoft bases OS. I had these issues back in 95->98, 98->2000 (I skipped that ME crap), and 2000-XP and now XP->Vista and I'll do it from Vista->Whatever's next.

My Linux evangelism is just that, evangelism. Microsoft makes a perfectly good (albeit expensive) platform that is easy to program for and VERY compatible with the mainstream software line. A program that can't run on Vista is not a well-programmed Win32 app, or you have driver issues.

I was VERY VERY tempted to purchase an iMac for my next box this month, but I did an apples-to-DIY comparison. And I got a Quad Core2 Duo out of the deal for the same price....sure it's not an all-in-one computer, but I have quadruple the memory, three times the hd space and double the processing power of an equivalent iMac for the same amount of money.

kopperdrake
06-17-2007, 04:19 PM
One of the more predictable Microsoft lies is that they always claim the new new OS release is faster, even if you need to buy a much more powerful PC in order to run it at all...

Personally I am really hoping that the move of Apple onto Intel hardware will result in my being able to run their operating system as a boot option.

I'm not convinced it will be something I will stick with, but I would very much like to have the option. Even if it's no good at all, it should make Microsoft wake their ideas up if they face some serious competition.

Because right now I view Vista as a product so appallingly bad that it could only come from a lazy arrogant company assured of it's monopoly.

Starbase - I made the switch to Mac as I couldn't face the move to Vista for reasons others have cited in the past.

A dual boot OSX/XP Pro system is proving an excellent way to learn just how much you rely/don't rely on various bits of software on each platform. One thing to bear in mind if you ever decide in the future to go for a dual boot system, whether Mac-based or PC-based, is some of the software I use can not be installed on two different platforms - non of the Adobe software (and by default the Macromedia software) will install on a Mac after being initially installed on a PC, and vice-versa. As I registered my Adobe software initially on a PC I can not install it on a Mac now. I believe even if you upgrade your software you still need permission from Adobe to switch platforms, though I haven't looked into it since CS3 came out.

I believe other SW manufacturers have similar policies - it makes me really appreciate the freedom NewTek give us with LW installation.

Jerembass
06-17-2007, 05:43 PM
i'm running fine with vista, have it on 24/7 for since feb. had to turn of that auto protect "don't install" thing but other wise all good,

running
P4 2.8GHz
2gb ram
256 nivida card...
2 gb fash ram
two CRT's

all while runing at least 5 programs at a time

Sarford
06-18-2007, 04:14 AM
I can't believe people still upgrade to vista. I'm not saying it is a bad operating system, it's just that with Trusted Computing and DRM, you effectively give control of your computer to Microsoft. You let them decide if you can do something or not. With Trusted Computing they even are allowed to delete files and aplications from your computer if they think it necesary.
That is definitly a no-no for me. Apple meight not be much better but sofar they don't have that crap in their OS.

Phil
06-18-2007, 05:28 AM
As I registered my Adobe software initially on a PC I can not install it on a Mac now. I believe even if you upgrade your software you still need permission from Adobe to switch platforms, though I haven't looked into it since CS3 came out.

I believe other SW manufacturers have similar policies - it makes me really appreciate the freedom NewTek give us with LW installation.

The height of arrogance is this attitude of "we have your money, but you can only use the product when we let you". This is also the reason I am glad that there are talented folks out there who are able to defeat the copy protection shoved into products like this. I'm so wary of this crap, and activation in general, that it now is becoming an overriding consideration for software purchase. Almost every stupid program now wants to authorise itself online before it will function, including $10 shareware.

I can stand to lose the occasional bit of shareware, I guess, but if I were to upgrade Photoshop, it would only be with the knowledge that I could re-activate the damn thing myself at any given time, regardless of platform. This is bearing in mind the extortionate upgrade fees for CS3 outside the US.

I was surprised to see that Vue addons from Cornucopia were generally copy protected. Since I had vouchers to use up, and there was no information about the nature of the copyprotection, I only purchased stuff where there was no copy protection (optional, or by default). Everyone else who had competing addons for my money lost out, simply due to their copy protection. It's so effective, it denied them a sale.

Sarford
06-18-2007, 06:35 AM
Totaly agree Phil, I'm not upgrading my CS2 and studio 8 suites until absolutley necesary, wich propably is gonna be very unlikely since I've my own company.
This same attitude cost Quark its head, in time this is gonna happen to Adobe also. Al this sh*t thanks to money-hungry managers. I'll bet most of the top brass of Adobe are so disconnected from their own software they propably only know Photoshop and Illustrator etc. as bulletpoints from their powerpoint presentations, and don't even know what it is or does.

Nicolas Jordan
06-18-2007, 12:15 PM
This same attitude cost Quark its head, in time this is gonna happen to Adobe also. Al this sh*t thanks to money-hungry managers. I'll bet most of the top brass of Adobe are so disconnected from their own software they propably only know Photoshop and Illustrator etc. as bulletpoints from their powerpoint presentations, and don't even know what it is or does.

I think that comment could never be closer to the truth. I used to work for a very large cell phone company and I was very surprised how disconnected executives and management were from the service/product that they were trying to sell as it relates to their customers and were always focused on how to make more money etc.