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bobakabob
05-31-2007, 06:04 AM
Apologies if anyone's posted this already. In the July issue of 3D World (http://www.3dworldmag.com/)the 2006 Roncarelli Report's table of most popular animation packages is published in the Analysis section. Makes interesting reading. Jay Roth (Newtek), Andy Lomas (Framestore) and Tom Roosendaal (Blender Foundation) are all quoted in the Talking point section for their reactions. Here's the list:

Ranked by number of copies installed (excluding educational licenses and upgrades). Not sure how the info is collected - there's a link to www.pixelnews.com

1. Blender
2. Flash
3. 3DS MAX
4. Truespace
5. Strata 3D
6. Lightwave
7. Cinema 4D
8. Hash Animation Master
9. Carrara
10. Maya
11. SketchUP
12. Softimage XSI
13. Electric Image (EIAS)
14. Realsoft 3D
15. Retas!Pro
16. Toon Boom Studio
17. Houdini
18. Animo

mattclary
05-31-2007, 06:26 AM
Wow! Blender... who'd of thunk it.

hrgiger
05-31-2007, 06:35 AM
The cost of free is very motivating.

wavk
05-31-2007, 06:39 AM
annoying typical marketing speech by jay.

yeh..


mlon

Iain
05-31-2007, 10:11 AM
I think it highlights the number of hobbyists more than anything else.

What did you expect Newtek to say? "Yes Blender should be nr 1 cos its better than LW"?

Dirk
05-31-2007, 11:04 AM
Pretty interesting. Looks good for LW, I would say.

hrgiger
05-31-2007, 11:14 AM
I find it hard to believe that there could be that many Truespace users. Have you seen that interface?

mattclary
05-31-2007, 12:15 PM
I find it hard to believe that there could be that many Truespace users. Have you seen that interface?

No doubt! All the icon based apps are about the same to me.

oDDity
05-31-2007, 12:22 PM
Hmph. Statistics. Absolutely and utterly meaningless unless you know how they were arrived at.

Matt
05-31-2007, 12:30 PM
What did Jay say exactly?

Jay - What did you say! (Assumes Jay may read this!)

jayroth
05-31-2007, 12:50 PM
As I recall, the question had to do with the numbers Blender had exhibited in the report, and what we thought about it. The editors seemed more surprised by LightWave's position over Maya and XSI, however. I wrote something along these lines, and I was limited to approximately 80 words. Those of you who are familiar with my writing style can appreciate the challenge I faced in limiting myself that way; I started off with something three times longer... Anyway, here it is, to the best of my recollection:

Blender is a great thing for our industry; it provides access to some pretty cool features that people can get for free, as opposed to using pirated copies of professional software. I like the different approaches it takes for some user interface elements, and it will be interesting to see what, if anything, of those approaches takes hold in other applications.

I do not see Blender as a replacement for professional applications like LightWave in the production pipeline. Production people are on the cutting edge, and they need bullet-proof solutions, and support groups that are right there with answers when problems arise (which will always happen). Modelers, animators, shader writers and technical directors are very demanding, and have incredible demands placed upon them. I know of some who have experimented with Blender in the production context, but none of them have adopted Blender in the pipeline. This could change down the road, but if it does, it will likely take many years to happen.

LightWave is the most popular tool in the pipeline for television effects, and figures prominently in feature film effects, as witnessed by “300,” “Pan’s Labyrinth,” “The DaVinci Code,” and “The Gaurdian,” to name a few. LightWave integrates well into the pipeline that includes the other applications mentioned. LightWave’s rendering prowess, especially evident in NewTek’s new v9.2 release (along with free render nodes), is one of the many reasons that LightWave is so popular. Our node-based materials editor, photorealistic motion blur, and completely upgraded GI and Radiosity systems are really pushing it to the limits, and that has been appreciated by the production community. These strengths, in addition to all of the features that are standards in LightWave (which are upsells or addition cost plug-ins for other applications) make LightWave a very attractive value as well, especially for people just starting out, or even people just beginning in their 3D adventure.

Titus
05-31-2007, 12:54 PM
If I remember correctly in the Roncarelli report from year 2000 LightWave had 50% of market on both movies and tv.

bobakabob
05-31-2007, 07:06 PM
I find it hard to believe that there could be that many Truespace users. Have you seen that interface?

Yep, that is a crazy interface. A friend spoke favourably about it until it eventually drove him mad. For some it might well be a good intro to the wacky world of 3D. I've never understood the appeal - cheap and cheerful?

bobakabob
05-31-2007, 07:07 PM
Hmph. Statistics. Absolutely and utterly meaningless unless you know how they were arrived at.

97% of statistics are made up.

hrgiger
05-31-2007, 07:20 PM
I wouldn't cut on Truespace unless I had used it (ok, I might). I bought Truespace before I bought Lightwave. I had it for about a month and a half before I made the switch. I honestly don't think I made a single object with it in that time. I just did not enjoy the interface at all. You can have some really great features in an app but if they're coated over with a klunky interface.....
To Matt C. I know how you feel about icons in apps and while I don't want Lightwave to become one of them, I think the interface doesn't have to suffer just because they're icons, but I think it does take longer to familiarize yourself with it. It wasn't just the fact that Truespace used icons, it was more about the placement and workflow. There seemed to be no real logical sense with the layout, and it very much felt crammed together. Honestly, if Lightwave ever gave us the options for icons, I might use them for some commonly used tools but keep the text for the ones I didn't use often. That would make sense to me.

colkai
06-01-2007, 02:18 AM
97% of statistics are made up.
Ahh, but then 3% of people researched agreed! ;)

I love adverts, 97% people agreed (based on a survey of 12 people) :p ;)

hrgiger
06-01-2007, 06:14 AM
4 out of 5 dentists agree with that.

Verlon
06-01-2007, 07:18 AM
I didn't hate the truespace interface. For all you separate apps haters, it IS just one interface.

When Lightwave was $2495 and Truespace could be had for $300 ($99 for the SE, then $199 to upgrade to latest version), it was what I used.

With the both at roughly the same price, Lightwave is a steal.

Kuzey
06-01-2007, 07:27 AM
I would have thought vue would have been on the list...considering the LW/vue bundle in the past :D

And no bryce as well...go figure :hey:

Kuzey

bobakabob
06-01-2007, 08:14 AM
The league table is for animation apps - though Vue and Bryce have some relevant features guess they don't count.

This report does make the 3D market look remarkably overcrowded. A miracle these niche programs have not only survived but appear to be doing well.

KSTAR
06-01-2007, 11:37 AM
Yikes! I remember using Truespace on the Amiga when it was called Calagari!!! Even back then I wasn't really a fan of that type of interface. I remember originally being attracted to sculpt 4D and Imagine. When LW came along it sealed the deal :)

hrgiger
06-01-2007, 12:03 PM
Verlon: I'm consistent. I hated the Truespace interface and I like seperate apps.:)

Nemoid
06-02-2007, 01:47 AM
never used Truespace. but from movies in its website, version 7.5 seems very interesting. especially in the rigging /animation compartment.

i dunno if that list is 100% realistic from a market POV. however, i'm happy to find Lw into a good position.

Lw is a cool app, very good quality, streamlined and direct to the point in areas like modelling and rendering. people using other kinda apps don't know how's the feeling of modelling in Lw.
and the rendering is the best in the industry into a general app at that price.especially now.

IMO , if NT works for rigging/character animation as they made for other areasin the 9.x cycle Lw will rise even more.:)

then making Lw more flexible,organized in its UI, reliable in how plugins interact, have more possibilities with Lscript, making it more open..
there's still much to do.

But, the feeling and ease of use of Lw is always there. :thumbsup:

Elmar Moelzer
06-02-2007, 11:13 AM
Generally I only believe those statistics that I have faked myself, but these statistics actually look good for LW, so I will make an exception to that rule :)
I am not suprised by the popularity of truespace at all, I actually was expecting it to be on the top of the list.
Truespace has a few things going for it:
It is very cheap and there have been lots of bundles with OEM stuff in the past, if I recall correctly.
It has a lot of features and its rendering capabilities are actually not bad at all. The rendering makes it particularily interesting for viz projects and so on. The colorful userinterface, while totally disturbing for pretty much everyone who does anything serious in 3d, has a certain "easy going" appeal at a first look, which is maybe another reason why some people that were looking for a hobby, or starter 3d- app went with TS.
I actually heard once that TS was the app that has sold the most copies, believe it or not.
What one should never forget is that the "high end"- segment of this market is only one part of the whole cake.
People that actively participate in forums (usually people that get deeper into an app than just spending a few hours with it for fun), are not 100% representative of the market.
E.g. if you were to read CGtalk and were to judge from the impressions you get from there, then you would probably think that most people are using Maya and Max (which indeed has a big share of the market) and maybe Zbrush (which is really about everywhere on CGtalk). Now I dont know whether Zbrush just was not on the list, or whether it did not make it on it due to its small share of the cake. Would be interesting to know (and again dont judge from CGtalk, thats not a representative view of the market at all).
CU
Elmar

colkai
06-03-2007, 02:28 AM
I think it's fair to say, there is a big gulf between those apps used in all "major film features" and the 'real world'.

Just because a few effects houses buy 10s or maybe a couple of hundred seats of a package, doesn't reflect it's wider use in the real world outside where freelancers and hobbyists reside. This is where most of the seats are sold, though some like to sneer at it, (thankfully Newtek do not), this is a massive market and will account for more sales than any studio could possibly generate.

Think simply of those on here using, just buying, or looking to buy LW, now, just how many do you think that amounts to? How big is the average staff of a 'major studio'? especially when in "down time"? You hear quotes of "up to 100 people at the peak of production" - but in downtime, bet you could slash that down to 30 or less.

Seems logical to me that the apps looked down upon by some (ahem) "professional" sectors, are better selling or installed more. Logically, what sort of person is going to go out and buy a package costing many thousands of pounds to learn when they aren't sure if they really want to get into it in a big way? Same way folks don't go out and buy a hand-built custom guitar to learn on, nope, they start on a 'Catalogue Special copy'.

Also, we all run LW plus other apps I'm sure, how many here have Blender or wings3D on their machines? Plus the other "cheap / hobbyist" packages?

Me?
LW, Vue5I (thanks Newtek), Bryce5 (3DWorld t'other month), Silo, Wings3D, Blender, VPro4 (who remembers that one? :) ).

Used to have others too, but dropped them because I needed more disk space for me LW content. :D

bg01
06-04-2007, 03:29 PM
I would not take too much stock in the statistics.
I know that I'm in the Blender statistics because I downloaded it.
Tried the interface, got frustrated, deleted Blender, found a cool tutorial on it, re-downloaded it and tried the tutorial. The tutorial omitted something, got frustrated again, deleted Blender again, found a video that explained the interface, downloaded it again, got frustrated again and deleted it again, found a cool "hair" tutorial, downloaded it again, found it had a new version, downloaded it (twice, one for each computer) and tried the hair tutorial.....(by now you are thinking "you really need to work on your patience" and your are right, I do.)

So Blender has more downloads than any other app. That is probably accurate (partially my fault, I've downloaded it many times). I was supprised with trueSpace's position. The 7.5 interface is...ah....well.......OK the manual is ah.....between awful and non-existent.

Iain
06-05-2007, 03:24 AM
So Blender has more downloads than any other app. That is probably accurate (partially my fault, I've downloaded it many times).

I think that's a very relevant point. I have downloaded interesting looking free programs and never even installed them.

There must be loads of people who think "ooh I'll work out how to use that tonight and make a film like Shrek." Then they try it. :)

cinciguy
06-05-2007, 11:21 AM
I'm kinda surprised that TS is on there, too. Last time I touched it was the free version 3.x that's still somewhere hard to find on the internet. It was used as a bridge between what ever I was using (Carrara at the time) and a model converter for Freespace2. I believe it's interface was described as being designed by a monkey on space crack.

I'm also kinda surprised that Carrara is on there, though maybe it's not unfounded. It is rather nice for the price. Actually had it since version 1, though didn't start really using it till 2 or 3 or so. I had a lot of fun with its shading. And version 5 introduced some nicer modeling tools.

Then I tried LW Modeler. Aaand off I went. : P

So now I have one of dad's seats. Wooo.

beverins
06-06-2007, 09:36 AM
1. Blender
2. Flash
3. 3DS MAX
4. Truespace
5. Strata 3D
6. Lightwave
7. Cinema 4D

Looks like Maxon is trying to take over that 6th place

http://tour.maxon3d.com/

They've teamed up with Adobe in a tour. Maybe some rumors should start about how Adobe's going to buy Maxon.

:hijack:

Wonderpup
06-06-2007, 04:08 PM
It's odd how adobe seem to have suddenly discovered 3D. Have they surveyed their empire and suddenly realised there is one more world to conquer?

I think they are looking to consume someone in the 3D area, if only for the sake of completness. 3D is the future of imaging and they are peripheral players at present- it just makes sense for them to go this way.

bobakabob
06-07-2007, 06:58 AM
It's odd how adobe seem to have suddenly discovered 3D. Have they surveyed their empire and suddenly realised there is one more world to conquer?

I think they are looking to consume someone in the 3D area, if only for the sake of completness. 3D is the future of imaging and they are peripheral players at present- it just makes sense for them to go this way.

I'm amazed they haven't attempted to swallow up Zbrush. There doesn't seem to have been much innovation in Photoshop over the last few years.