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Twisted Designs
05-23-2007, 04:31 PM
As you see from my name I work in the graphic design industry. While my work hasn't always been in the 3d modeling it is now turning solely to that because of a new opportunity. For the last couple days my posts here have been trying to figure this program out and have gotten some awesome help. But in my search for good tutorials and detailed program explanation, I have discovered a few other programs that seem to be highly praised. So i pose this question:

Of the 5 following listed programs, which one is the best for 3d modeling taking into consideration the following details; User Interface learn ability, modeling potential, detail, scene setup, render times.

Lightwave
Maya
ZBrush
Cinema 4d
3d Studio Max

Take into consideration that budget is not an issue so please be honest.

zapper1998
05-23-2007, 04:44 PM
get dan's books, Inside Lightwave 9, 8, 7, 6, great investments..

awesome tips on everything....

hrgiger
05-23-2007, 04:52 PM
Well, out of the ones you listed, I would have to go with Lightwave. Zbrush would be the best one, but it's not strictly a polygonal modeler. However, it is the best at what is does which is displacing millions of polygons into rich, high detailed meshes. It can be used in conjunction with other 3D programs.

JeffrySG
05-23-2007, 05:06 PM
Every app. will have its strengths and weaknesses... and some will do many things equally as well. The real question is "What are you going to be modeling?" Without that, it's hard to answer your question. Also, it might be possible that all of the apps will do what you need and it may come down to how YOU like each of them. So you could download the demos and try for yourself. Different people like different apps.

Some forums would consider this a loaded question and others (like CGTalk) don't even allow questions like this in their TOS. Just fyi....

ps. you forgot Blender, Modo, Silo, Mudbox, Wings3D

Jeff

Twisted Designs
05-23-2007, 05:46 PM
Every app. will have its strengths and weaknesses... and some will do many things equally as well. The real question is "What are you going to be modeling?" Without that, it's hard to answer your question. Also, it might be possible that all of the apps will do what you need and it may come down to how YOU like each of them. So you could download the demos and try for yourself. Different people like different apps.

Some forums would consider this a loaded question and others (like CGTalk) don't even allow questions like this in their TOS. Just fyi....

ps. you forgot Blender, Modo, Silo, Mudbox, Wings3D

Jeff

For the most part I will be doing complex architectural "fly throughs". I have some experience with setting up animation scenes and limited actual modeling experience. I am primarily a 2d artist. However, for the sake of my question..lets say..the best program for character creation, rigging, and detailed rendering.

t4d
05-23-2007, 06:02 PM
for me personally the best ones are

Modeling - Modo & Zbrush 3 are the best and a good partnership
( modo for animation content creation, Zbrush for detailing etc )
Modo has evolved far beyond LW modeler.
But if you doing architectural you may have a good workflow using LW CAD. ?


UV mapping -
Modo or XSI with the free roadkill plugin

Rigging and Character animation -
Messiah ( simply and a great Lightwave plugin )
High level XSI or Maya ,
THo 3D max character studio is Quick and powerfull too I hear.

Rendering ( Super Cheap Flexiable ) Lightwave 9.2 is very good.
but for powerful, unlimited polygon counts, unlimited options- Mental Ray
or Pixar renderman for the displacement rendering speed.
But both MR and Pixars cost ALOT more then LW's render.

Liquids - Blender GET IT !!
Hardbodies- XSI
cloth - Maya cloth or syflex

IF your a LW'er You should already have Fprime if you don't,.. get it !!! =)
if your interest in other modeling workflows Check out Silo is a very nice tool also.

cresshead
05-23-2007, 06:20 PM
i'd say any opinions are strictly personal and not 'de facto'...

my personal preference is lightwave and 3dsmax..both are very capable and max is top for me currently if you take into account adding in the polyboost plugin..this is for poly modeling and spline based modeling inc sub divisional surfaces.

for character modeling...well z brush 3 has me smitten..only had it a couple of days but it's FAB!:thumbsup:

if you need nurbs based modeling for product based tasks for visualisation for use of the data then autodesk studio tools or maya..or add power nurbs/solids plugin for 3dsmax.

if you need landscape modeling then Vue infinate..they have a ple version ut now for you to try.

units of measurment:-
if you need to model to real world units with 'ease' then lightwave and max both have extensive measuring tools..watchout for xsi as it only has generic units which may or maynot slow you down when you need accurate measuring tools...maya has metric and decimal inches..same with cinema 4d.

to be quite fair i'd say you can make anything in any of the programs you've listed out...maybe a good thing to take into consideration when looking for a modeling app is the training available either on video [dvd] or books and also web based tutorials...

you'll find that 3dsmax, maya and lightwave have THE MOST training resources available and should be taken into account as knowledge is poweer and can either speed up your learning or if there's only a few tutorials then can cripple your learning curve even with a ''capable app''...

my best advice is to also try all the apps out as they allhave demos...

Twisted Designs
05-23-2007, 06:37 PM
If not because of a solidly better product, why then does Autodesk charge $6,000+ for Maya?

jasonwestmas
05-23-2007, 06:38 PM
oh? Maya went down a thousand bucks eh?

Steamthrower
05-23-2007, 06:40 PM
Twisted Designs, I also do architectural visualisation and mechanical animations. I have found Lightwave to be a very capable modeler for this. An additional plus is the quality & speed of the LW native renderer. I have found it to be well suited for my needs.

I also use a specialized CAD program, AGI32, for architectural pre-viz straight from AutoCAD plans. High learning curve, little flexibility, and high price, however.

You mentioned character creation. Unfortunately from what I've read and from my own experience, LW isn't the easiest in this field (I can't help but think it's still pretty advanced, though, since it was used way back in version 6 to create an entire CG feature film).

jasonwestmas
05-23-2007, 06:44 PM
Maya Unlimited is still 7 grand.

Twisted Designs
05-23-2007, 06:48 PM
.........., since it was used way back in version 6 to create an entire CG feature film).



That is another question i have. Can anyone tell me any movies that have used Lightwave as the premiere form of CG effects? And also if there are any films such as the one you are talking about?


All of the popular animated movies out right now....what are those using?

Twisted Designs
05-23-2007, 06:48 PM
Maya Unlimited is still 7 grand.

What is the reason for their extreme pricing?

cresshead
05-23-2007, 06:48 PM
If not because of a solidly better product, why then does Autodesk charge $6,000+ for Maya?

because you get $6000+ worth of tools not found in other packages....like fluids, fur, cloth, maya live etc...i don't have maya unlimited btw but it's ''worth'' it cos they get people who think it's worth it go n buy it...simple as that really.

also remember maya used to cost 28,000 so it's dropped it's price quite abit really...:D

maya can fit well into film production piplines as they grew with maya and custom tools written in MEL...maya's not for everyone each app does stuff differently...depends on what you need really...go try the demo's and find the app that fits your personal needs...that THE app for you...you'l see maya screenshot in nr every feature film for fx etc...shrek uses maya for example along with there own custom tools...but maya's poly tools whilst they are servicable are not THE best...the best poly modeler is probably 3dsmax with polyboost..then lightwave silo or modo..

Dodgy
05-23-2007, 06:49 PM
Of the 5 following listed programs, which one is the best for 3d modeling taking into consideration the following details; User Interface learn ability, modeling potential, detail, scene setup, render times.

Lightwave> Fast modeler, okay animation,fast easy good renderer, unlimited nodes
Maya > Okay modeller, great animation, good complex renderer, limited number of nodes.
ZBrush > quirky interface good for organic modelling.
Cinema 4d > okay modeller, not so good animation, fast renderer, but not as nice...
3d Studio Max > Expensive Painful painful painful...

Take into consideration that budget is not an issue so please be honest.

jasonwestmas
05-23-2007, 06:56 PM
XSI is less clunky to me than Maya. XSI feels like it was made more for a small group of users. I feel this way about lightwave too. I sure do love setting up rigs in maya though, of course XSI has biped rigs ready to go for you.

cresshead
05-23-2007, 07:10 PM
Lightwave> Fast modeler, okay animation,fast easy good renderer, unlimited nodes
Maya > Okay modeller, great animation, good complex renderer, limited number of nodes.
ZBrush > quirky interface good for organic modelling.
Cinema 4d > okay modeller, not so good animation, fast renderer, but not as nice...
3d Studio Max > Expensive Painful painful painful...

Take into consideration that budget is not an issue so please be honest.

Hmm...well of course that's your personal 'vision':bday:

let me just push my 'vision'

3dsmax,> best modeler, good rigging, fast renderers [has several built in] lighting has ies lighting for realworld lighting set ups and light anaysis with the radiosity renderer, also has unlimited renderer for mental ray and scanline and light tracer and radiosity renderer...has good cloth, good hair and hard body dynamics..is cheap to maintain unlike xsi or maya if you go on the subscription route....can drage drop motion captures and has footsep driven character motions...and completments lightwave really well...you need to look at the upkeep of any app [cost]


lightwave is very cheap to maintain around 300 to update BUT point updates are free...
3dsmax is very cheap to maintain [300 per year]
maya is around 700 per year...so if you miss 2 upgrades..which can be point updates not FULl updates you may as well go and buy a new maya complete seat...
xsi essentials is around 700 per year and advanced is around 1500 per year...
cineam 4d is module based so you HAVE to keep ALL you models updated to keep them working...very expensive i believe for an 'also ran' 3d app.

GregMalick
05-23-2007, 07:11 PM
Since you said Architectural Design - do yourself a favor and checkout the LWCAD Lightwave combo vids at W-TOOLS (http://www.wtools3d.com/index.php?p=4&content=tutorials)

But if you had said "highly detailed organic design" I would have suggested the Modo+ZBrush combo. You'll have to wait for Modo 301 to do the flythroughs though. I expect that will be in 2-3 months.

If those flythoughs include fluids (like waterfalls & Fountains) then you need blender (free). But for super realism you'll need RealFlow and a render farm :D

Personally I think the Modo+Lightwave+LWCAD combo is a perfect balance of power & price.

Twisted Designs
05-23-2007, 07:33 PM
What was the guy back a ways talking about when he said there was a film done entirely in Lightwave?

cresshead
05-23-2007, 07:58 PM
menithings - the freak
serenity - freature film
firefly the tv show
starship troopers roughnecks tv show
dan dare tv show
max steel tv show
battle star galactica mini tv show and season 1 2 and 3...
babylon 5 season1,2,3,4,5
buffy the vampire slayer
jimmy neutron boy genius film ahs tv show...
busy busses tv show
titannic fx shots

....well there's a long list...just so you know lightwave is a capable 3d app in the right talented hands.

Stooch
05-23-2007, 08:19 PM
Graphic design? well there is more to it then just modeling. Lets look over your list:

Lightwave: Good all around, good price, great modeler. Learning curve could be better. Liots of plugins. Good choice.

Maya: ****** modeler but many plugins available to fix that. I wouldnt get maya just for graphic design though, its better for larger projects with bigger teams. Although if you learn maya you can work with more clients seamlessly because there is a good chance they have maya as well. Not the best choice here though. Especially consider the price.

ZBrush: I consider this a more finishing/touchup tool. I wouldnt model in this program from scratch but if you have wacom experience, this will come in handy. Probably one of the steeper learning curves of all the choices. Not a good choice for a designer. Especially if you are looking to design rather then create organic characters. This one is definitelly worth trying out though.

Cinema 4d: I work in the motion graphics/design industry alot and this is the most popular package round here. It has one of the easiest learning curves but its ease of use starts to get in the way as you get more complex in your projects. This is a great choice for a designer if you dont intend to do anything super complex and you want something thats easy to learn. Good choice esp for a mac user. But not the best modeler out of this lineup.

3d Studio Max: Great modeler. Terrific modeler actually. But for design type modeling you can get a less expensive app, plus max and maya have a weird future, rumors that they will be combined or one killed. etc. iffy choice at the moment, but a solid, full featured app. Medium learning curve. Great renderers to choose from.

not listed but worth checking out:

Modo: Takes the best out of lightwave and gives it to you in a nice, organized and clean interface. I would recommend this for purely modeling/design since its pretty full featured for modeling and works on macs/windows. I would definitelly take a good look at this app. Fast render engine, easy to learn. Not as full featured as LW but its progressing pretty fast. something to watch.



As you see from my name I work in the graphic design industry. While my work hasn't always been in the 3d modeling it is now turning solely to that because of a new opportunity. For the last couple days my posts here have been trying to figure this program out and have gotten some awesome help. But in my search for good tutorials and detailed program explanation, I have discovered a few other programs that seem to be highly praised. So i pose this question:

Of the 5 following listed programs, which one is the best for 3d modeling taking into consideration the following details; User Interface learn ability, modeling potential, detail, scene setup, render times.

Lightwave
Maya
ZBrush
Cinema 4d
3d Studio Max

Take into consideration that budget is not an issue so please be honest.

Stooch
05-23-2007, 08:20 PM
Menithings is also working on a feature thats called Terra. I know because thats my dayjob :)

Rendered in LW animated in lw/maya (character animation in maya) :)



menithings - the freak
serenity - freature film
firefly the tv show
starship troopers roughnecks tv show
dan dare tv show
max steel tv show
battle star galactica mini tv show and season 1 2 and 3...
babylon 5 season1,2,3,4,5
buffy the vampire slayer
jimmy neutron boy genius film ahs tv show...
busy busses tv show
titannic fx shots

....well there's a long list...just so you know lightwave is a capable 3d app in the right talented hands.

JeffrySG
05-23-2007, 09:19 PM
There's some really nice stuff in the LW9.2 demo reel... check it out too...

http://www.lightwiki.com/index.php?title=Community_LightWave_9.2_demo_video

JeffrySG
05-23-2007, 09:23 PM
And check out Zoic's webpage... much of the 3d work they do for tv/film uses LW....

http://zoicstudios.com/Search/Showcase.aspx?FileView=awards&ShowID=29&ReelID=36&CurrentFileType=Mov

JeffrySG
05-23-2007, 09:34 PM
Also... (sorry for the triple post)
This is a great thread that asks the question - What 3d software to buy????

http://www.zaon.org/showthread.php?t=299

hope it helps...

Steamthrower
05-23-2007, 09:57 PM
Twisted Designs, ''that guy'' is back.

The film I was referring to specifically was Jimmy Neutron. I believe it was the first film to be released in theaters made with a commercial product. Big CG studios like Pixar use their own proprietary software.

But like the list provided above, Lightwave has an amazing portfolio. It was even supposed to be used in The Lord of the Rings but I haven't ever discovered what exactly was made with it.

colkai
05-24-2007, 03:08 AM
LW with LWCAD2 - sweetness itself, I know lots of folks use it very successfully for this architectural work. LWCAD really does raise the stakes for arch-viz in LW and it's constantly under development.

I personally dunno nowt about MAX but it seems popular with the Arch-Viz folks, so for your market, that's got to be a contender as well but many feel it's "difficult to live with" from comments here.

Dodgy
05-24-2007, 03:26 AM
Hmm...well of course that's your personal 'vision':bday:

let me just push my 'vision'

3dsmax,> best modeler, good rigging, fast renderers [has several built in] lighting has ies lighting for realworld lighting set ups and light anaysis with the radiosity renderer, also has unlimited renderer for mental ray and scanline and light tracer and radiosity renderer...has good cloth, good hair and hard body dynamics..is cheap to maintain unlike xsi or maya if you go on the subscription route....can drage drop motion captures and has footsep driven character motions...and completments lightwave really well...you need to look at the upkeep of any app [cost]

I'll clarify my statement which was half jest. I won't deny it's powerful, and it's built from the standpoint of autodesk's other cad programs, so it's architectural modelling functions should be really good, but for me the interface is just so painful to navigate with bits hidden all over the place, having to scroll along panels all the time and just basically getting in the way that going back to lightwave is a relief. :) If you like it groovy, but for me, it was unnecessarily complex.

And upkeep is a hidden cost. For me, for the price you just can't beat LW and a couple of nice plugins. Modo might get there soon when they have animation though...

Ztreem
05-24-2007, 04:30 AM
if you need nurbs based modeling for product based tasks for visualisation for use of the data then autodesk studio tools or maya..or add power nurbs/solids plugin for 3dsmax.
...

If you want Nurbs and money is not an issue then you could pick up Studiotools which is in the price range on $10000-$70000 depending of what version you want. I would recomend Rhino instead, it's a good Nurbs package with a much nicer workflow than Studiotools, ok maybe not as powerful, but powerful enough. Rhino is around $1300, I think.

wavk
05-24-2007, 05:16 AM
for arch work id say go blender, saves you allot of hastle.


mlon

colkai
05-24-2007, 06:42 AM
IF you can wrap your around the interface! :p ;)

Seriously though, does it have good snapping or something, just it's not something I've heard folks push for arch-viz before. :)

Exception
05-24-2007, 07:04 AM
Blender? Great future set, impossible to use in the long run.
I really do support their efforts thougha nd look forward to their future UI revamp.

By that time perhaps LW has caught up to some of its more outstanding features.

we use Lw exclusively for arch. viz. There's several different viable choices to make concerning software, and none is significantly better than the others, but from an arch viz perspective, building on the information that has been given already:

Modo: great modeler but lack of plugins makes you get stuck and without the advanced snapping and arch. viz tools that LW cad has. Modo used to be LW modeler and then started a life of its own.
Zbrush: great organic modeler, useless for architecture
Maya: Don't bother modeling here, but best for parametric animated stuff
3dsmax + polyboost: great modeling, but lacks the coherency of the interface that lw + modo have. Very steep and long learning curve, bloated application, expensive without reason. Polyboost is clearly based on routines developed in LW.

Don't forget about FormZ. that's a nice one for architectural modeling, easy to learn, but has a clunky interface and is not so flexible or stable. The renderer is not great.

for rendering it depends if you;re doing interiors or exteriors. Vray is considered to be one of the best for architecture, and Kray (for LW) comes very close. but Lw 9.2's native renderer is much more powerfull in terms of features, and the quality can be outstanding with fast render times. It's networkability holds it back currently.

AbnRanger
05-27-2007, 06:17 PM
The question is: "Are you doing Arc/Viz animations or Character Animations?"
3ds Max does both extremely well, and has the largest footprint in the Architectual field among all of the applications. You have a good deal of Arc/Viz goodies built into Max like Architectual Primitives such as spiral staircases, windows, trees/plants, etc., and then a good deal of arc/viz material presets...even with Mental Ray (as of Max 9). If price really is not a major consideration, you won't regret choosing 3ds Max (however, I would recommend buying either finalRender Stage 1 R2...my personal favorite, or V-Ray...since Mental Ray is relatively slow compared to those 2). The Polyboost plugin may have some tools that are also available in LW, but it IS NOT a copy of LW tools by any stretch. It is a fabulous and inexpensive plugin that has a number of capabilities that aren't available in LW.

Given all of this, why should one even consider LW (seeing that cost is no obstacle)? One word....FPrime!
No other major program has ANYTHING comparable to it...not even close. And the speed it adds to your workflow, compared to the other apps. is the difference between a student with a cheat-sheet to an exam, and one who does not.
Every time I tweak materials and lighting in Max, I keep thinking about how incredibly sweet it would be if Max had something like FPrime available. It doesn't. C4D is the closest one, but still pales in comparison.
Newtek is already working on revamping it's Character Animation tools, so that won't likely be a weak spot for LW much longer.
To be honest, as much as I like Max, I'd have to say a combination of LW+FPrime+LWCAD+Vue 6 Xstream would be your MOST PRODUCTIVE and most cost effective toolset...bar none...for what you do.

AbnRanger
05-27-2007, 06:34 PM
This link is to an Arc Viz studio in Memphis, TN that uses LW. Check it out:
http://www.2dimes.com/
http://www.signaturetowernashville.com/virtual.php
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/profiles/Paradigm/index.php

grn
05-27-2007, 07:36 PM
Modelling in LW and Maya is equal imo. There might be much expensive features in Maya that you wont ever need. LW base price is low, with selective, wise investments you can add nearly whatever you want. I was about to quit LW when version 9.0 came out. Fought with it and doubted it every day. v9.2 removed my doubts. I've never seen a software that gives so much compared to it's price. If I have to tell a new guy what to buy, there is no doubt, LW.

I agree that 3DS is painful. ~Once per month I face a situation where I have to use it as a modelling tool. Ever since version 2.0 I have tried to avoid it cause I have felt that slowness of it's interface is killing me. Unimportant tiny colored icons, scroll menus, rt display problems with textures, viewport sizes, smoothing groups, poor chances to convert contents decently to other packages... In my eyes the program has gone more worse by each version. I dont understand where it's price comes from.

sammael
05-27-2007, 09:23 PM
As you see from my name I work in the graphic design industry. While my work hasn't always been in the 3d modeling it is now turning solely to that because of a new opportunity. For the last couple days my posts here have been trying to figure this program out and have gotten some awesome help. But in my search for good tutorials and detailed program explanation, I have discovered a few other programs that seem to be highly praised. So i pose this question:

Of the 5 following listed programs, which one is the best for 3d modeling taking into consideration the following details; User Interface learn ability, modeling potential, detail, scene setup, render times.

Lightwave
Maya
ZBrush
Cinema 4d
3d Studio Max

Take into consideration that budget is not an issue so please be honest.

If you cant figure out LW after a couple of years you dont have much chance with any of the programs you listed. This thread just seems pointless to me realy, why not just pick up the demos and PLE editions of the programs listed and try them for yourself. Obviously everyone is going to have a diferent opinion on which is better. A decent modeler could get away with using any of them it just comes down to personal preference.

RTSchramm
05-27-2007, 10:57 PM
I agree with Sammael. You need to try out all the demos if you have the time to do so. Of course a lot depends on how much money you are willing to spend, the type of CG work you plan on doing, and what type of pipeline you may be required to fix your work into.

RIch

katsh
05-28-2007, 12:48 AM
3dsmax + polyboost: great modeling,... expensive without reason.

Without reason? hah there is strong reason,
It is consequence of large amount salary of the employee :thumbsdow

im worry i looks anti autodesk. i dont hate any company and software.

AbnRanger
05-28-2007, 01:35 AM
Without reason? hah there is strong reason,
It is consequence of large amount salary of the employee :thumbsdow

im worry i looks anti autodesk. i dont hate any company and software.I'll tell you why it costs what it does...Character Studio, Reactor Dynamics, Particle Studio, Mental Ray, Shave N Haircut, ClothFX, ProBooleans/ProCutter. These were all created as plugins for Max. Autodesk has to pay for them or had to buy the developers outright.
Could they charge less? Perhaps, but until Maya or XSI comes down, Max has no reason to.

katsh
05-28-2007, 02:14 AM
i see. thx for information.
but max was already expensive before alomost those plug in u mentioned was attached.
how about that.

oDDity
05-28-2007, 04:52 AM
Even maya also has a polyboost-type plug in called nextools these days, which adds a lot of good fast modeling features.
Face it guys, LW modeler has been stagnating for years while everyone else has been catching it up. It's still great for me because I'm so used to it and have so many custom hotkeys that I can interface perfectly with it.
Four years ago, Lw was the sh1t, first choice of modeler, if I was starting out in CG from scratch today, I seriosuly doubt I would choose LW modeler.

jasonwestmas
05-28-2007, 08:24 AM
There will always be a better modeling app. I can't see how any application would hold up over a year without an update.

AbnRanger
05-28-2007, 04:09 PM
i see. thx for information.
but max was already expensive before alomost those plug in u mentioned was attached.
how about that.Good point, but then again...Maya Unlimited and XSI Advanced were the same before they added some of their highend features, like fluids and hair,etc.
Lightwave was $2k until their price drop almost 2yrs ago. Instead of 3ds Max being reduced in price, they just added more to the package. In fact, they put so much in, that they could easily justify, market-wise, increasing their price.
They obviously don't see LW as a threat to their market, and that's why none of them have adjusted their advanced packages downward in price. Once Newtek is done retooling LW, that may very well change.

Twisted Designs
05-28-2007, 07:47 PM
This thread has helped me out incredibly. Between me and my "boss", we decided that Lightwave was an idea product to do the work we intend on doing. However, he went and ordered 3d Studio Max as well, so I am thinking he is gonna end up having me do a crash course in that as well!

cresshead
05-28-2007, 09:17 PM
if you want to get your head around max really fast and have a proper understanding of what it can do then head over to www.3dbuzz.com and grab their training kit of 108 hours intense video training.

also lw is still really cool app for organic modeling...i just finished watching the taron dvd organic modeling from gnomon workshop and he uses about 10 tools and makes lw look effortless in organic modeling a head...he does stress quite abit that he was over modeling it if your were to then go n use z brush for displacement modeling...it think he's dropping hints of the next DVD!...he's making soon.

lw looked great...and fast in his capable hands and although you can transfer what he was doing to say max, maya, xsi i'm sure lw would be faster....only thng quicker maybe modo for similar modeling [i'm not usre..just a guess] and zbruish as a different way to model from a ball or low poly start mesh.

AbnRanger
05-28-2007, 11:23 PM
Here's a good set of Arch Viz video tutorials to get you started in Max, at 3D Palace. You will need to register and then login. Once that's done you can start downloading them. They have some LW vid's too:

http://www.3d-palace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13019

http://www.3d-palace.com/tmas/video.php?vid=106

This is a list of DVD's available at Kurv Studios for LW. I would make sure to get the one on practical lighting. That's perhaps the key ingredient in making your arch viz work look believable.
http://www.kurvstudios.com/lightwave/

sammael
05-29-2007, 12:21 AM
This thread has helped me out incredibly. Between me and my "boss", we decided that Lightwave was an idea product to do the work we intend on doing. However, he went and ordered 3d Studio Max as well, so I am thinking he is gonna end up having me do a crash course in that as well!

Of all the other options you choose max?, when budget is no option...
Madness!!
Sure its powerful, but maya or XSI would be a much more well rounded soultion I would have thought. Max suffers from an ancient confusing interface and a stack system that is usually much more of a hindrance than a help. The surfacing system is absolute rubbish. Biped is nice but from what I have heard either maya or xsi would walk all over it.
Check out the feature videos at the xsi site it looks truly awesome.
Sorry for the negative post but I fear people may have led you down the wrong path.

jin choung
05-29-2007, 12:39 AM
it used to be that lightwave was the best poly modeler among the big 5 and imo, it still is.

issue is, there are now more than the big 5 to contend with.

zbrush took us to a new place with its displacement sculpting/ baking to displacement/ baking to normal map workflow.

if you're thinking about doing high frequency detail modeling, it would be criminal not to consider sculpting apps like z.

zbrush's direct and equivalent competitor when it comes strictly to 3d sculpting (and not the paint and "pixol" manipulation capabilities of zb that many of us 3d artists don't care about anyway) is mudbox. it can push as many polys and is much more familiar when it comes to interface. it's also more familiar in doing some rudimentary poly pushing to get a sculpt worthy model.

isilo2 can't push as many polys (yet [keeping my fingers crossed]) but it provides the same functionality and is a full fledged poly modeler as well as sculptor. has some really nice tools and tough to beat at $100.

blender - full 3d app - completely free - strange interface but is very rigorously consistent and not as disagreeable as zb's. modeling is pretty good and it has sculpting and is remarkably usable... even up to a million polys.... and because it is free, it's probably silo's biggest out and out competition.

-------------------------------------------------------

finally, that's just poly/subd modeling.

lightwave provides no NURBS surface modeling (or any other kind of surface for that matter) at all.

but since that will do for most multimedia work, i'd say go with lw and mudbox if you can afford it. isilo2 if you don't need to go ultra hi res. and get blender just cuz it's free.

jin

Stooch
05-29-2007, 01:08 AM
Of all the other options you choose max?, when budget is no option...
Madness!!
Sure its powerful, but maya or XSI would be a much more well rounded soultion I would have thought. Max suffers from an ancient confusing interface and a stack system that is usually much more of a hindrance than a help. The surfacing system is absolute rubbish. Biped is nice but from what I have heard either maya or xsi would walk all over it.
Check out the feature videos at the xsi site it looks truly awesome.
Sorry for the negative post but I fear people may have led you down the wrong path.

nah. max is very very well rounded. modeling and design and animation and pretty much everything yuo want is available to it. to me its an iffy choice because of uncertain future but its a good choice none the less. :)

Stooch
05-29-2007, 01:09 AM
all the more reason to watch modo development. some really nice sculpting in there :)


it used to be that lightwave was the best poly modeler among the big 5 and imo, it still is.

issue is, there are now more than the big 5 to contend with.

zbrush took us to a new place with its displacement sculpting/ baking to displacement/ baking to normal map workflow.

if you're thinking about doing high frequency detail modeling, it would be criminal not to consider sculpting apps like z.

zbrush's direct and equivalent competitor when it comes strictly to 3d sculpting (and not the paint and "pixol" manipulation capabilities of zb that many of us 3d artists don't care about anyway) is mudbox. it can push as many polys and is much more familiar when it comes to interface. it's also more familiar in doing some rudimentary poly pushing to get a sculpt worthy model.

isilo2 can't push as many polys (yet [keeping my fingers crossed]) but it provides the same functionality and is a full fledged poly modeler as well as sculptor. has some really nice tools and tough to beat at $100.

blender - full 3d app - completely free - strange interface but is very rigorously consistent and not as disagreeable as zb's. modeling is pretty good and it has sculpting and is remarkably usable... even up to a million polys.... and because it is free, it's probably silo's biggest out and out competition.

-------------------------------------------------------

finally, that's just poly/subd modeling.

lightwave provides no NURBS surface modeling (or any other kind of surface for that matter) at all.

but since that will do for most multimedia work, i'd say go with lw and mudbox if you can afford it. isilo2 if you don't need to go ultra hi res. and get blender just cuz it's free.

jin

0scrooge0
05-29-2007, 01:18 AM
LightWave has got the most intuitive interface.
That's a very big PLUS point!

See what other packages have: tons of unintuitive icons; they must be avoided just for this reason!

Iain
05-29-2007, 02:54 AM
If you're mainly doing architecture, max is a good choice. It has the user base and great rendering options (VRay is the industry standard).
I used max first as it's almost the default choice for architectural work but I just didn't like it.

Demos are the business.

sammael
05-29-2007, 03:16 AM
nah. max is very very well rounded. modeling and design and animation and pretty much everything yuo want is available to it. to me its an iffy choice because of uncertain future but its a good choice none the less. :)
I think if you want to make games then it's ideal anything else and there are better options. Just the workflow of the bloated beast... yuck. People complain about LW toolset not being intergrated enough, well you aint seen nothing till you load up max.

AbnRanger
05-29-2007, 04:10 AM
Of all the other options you choose max?, when budget is no option...
Madness!!
Sure its powerful, but maya or XSI would be a much more well rounded soultion I would have thought. Max suffers from an ancient confusing interface and a stack system that is usually much more of a hindrance than a help. The surfacing system is absolute rubbish. Biped is nice but from what I have heard either maya or xsi would walk all over it.
Check out the feature videos at the xsi site it looks truly awesome.
Sorry for the negative post but I fear people may have led you down the wrong path.
How is he led down a wrong path when 3ds Max dominates the Architectual Pre-Viz market (for good reason), as well as the Gaming Industry (which involves a ton of Character Animation)?
If those Animators thought Character Studio was inferior to Maya's or XSI's CA systems you bet your sweet bippy they'd be using them instead. Character Studio takes a back seat to neither, and is a big reason these gaming companies stick with Max.
Also, for all the talk about its UI...in actuality, it has far more text buttons than icons...you learn the very first day in school what the icons are and do...piece of cake. The Modifier stack is one of Max's strong points, not a liablity. Another strong point of its UI is the use of the Quad Menu (by right-clicking). So, the icons are there simply if you want to use them and can be hidden if you prefer. You will rarely use them once you have a general grasp of the program, so don't be skeer'ed by them.

Twisted Designs, attached are some jpeg's of the UI, and with a few of the Arch-Viz primitives that you will find really handy. I would model in both, but when it comes time to do your materials, lighting and rendering, I'd do all of that in LW, especially if you get FPrime 3. Max's integrated Mental Ray render produces some fantastic images, but is pretty darn slow and is somewhat fickle with what materials you can use. You want a renderer with fast GI or Radiosity. With LW 9.2 you have that...same goes for FPrime.

jin choung
05-29-2007, 04:34 AM
How is he led down a wrong path when 3ds Max dominates the Architectual Pre-Viz market (for good reason), as well as the Gaming Industry (which involves a ton of Character Animation)?
If those Animators thought Character Studio was inferior to Maya's or XSI's CA systems you bet your sweet bippy they'd be using them instead. Character Studio takes a back seat to neither, and is a big reason these gaming companies stick with Max.


abn,

i think this is somewhat disingenuous. lots of people and organizations stick with software not necessarily because it's the best, based on merit.

inertia, legacy pipeline and simple familiarity and brand loyalty... *cough*... can keep people staying with any give app.

but i'm not a max hater... i dislike its interface with more hidden menus and drop down lists than a dozen screens can properly accomodate but like maya, it is rigorously self consistent and in its way elegant.

but my biggest beef with max is its hubris. it simply refuses to compete in terms of price because it feels it doesn't have to, its customers are THAT loya, and as i feel about any cartel, i feel that it should be punished for that.

jin

cresshead
05-29-2007, 06:32 AM
I think if you want to make games then it's ideal anything else and there are better options. Just the workflow of the bloated beast... yuck. People complain about LW toolset not being intergrated enough, well you aint seen nothing till you load up max.

well everyones opionion is valid for them but i found 3dsmax to be the most logical and intuative 3d app out of maya, xsi, cinema4d, lightwave...and chose lightwave and 3dsmax as the app to teach students as they were the simplest for them to pickup and not get frustrated...simply put max is a doddle to get on with and lightwave is prettyy quick once you learn some shortcuts and get used to the 2 apps and the connection bug known as the ''hub'' :devil: and use also max and lightwave are the most versitile as in they have the tools/workflow for most any type of 3d you may need...they maynot be the best at everything but they can have a darn good go at anything...things like xsi's lack of dimensioning tools make if utter poo for architectual and you'd have the create your own rulers...also it doesn't have a left and right viewport...how weird is that!:gotpics::devil:

maya and cinema do ot have a full dimensioning system either..metric and decimal inches for them only...compromises?....why should you have to in such basic needs?

mattclary
05-29-2007, 06:37 AM
I'll tell you why Max leads in Arch Viz, it's because of AutoCAD. Everyone has used AutoCAD since the days of DOS and way before 3D was prevalent. When 3D became more of a demand, people went back to Autodesk (or whatever they call themselves nowadays) and got their 3D animation package.

If I remember correctly, 3D Studio has always been priced around 3k-4k, which, back in the day, would have made it much cheaper than the other players.

Another factor that plays into Max's popularity is it's use as a modding tool and the fact that it is the single most pirated piece of software on the planet.

cresshead
05-29-2007, 07:02 AM
actually he single most pirated piece of software is photoshop or microsoft office....

as for price 3dsmax hasn't moved a single penny from release of 3dsmax 1 in 1997 which just shows how strong their sales are...everyone else has been scrapping around for new customers by dropping prices..don't want to soudn like a max fanboy as it's not perfect but it's pretty good enough to convince me to buy it waaay back in 1999...and later on bought lightwave 7.0...i also have xsi fund 4.2 which is a great doorstop for my office/room

cresshead
05-29-2007, 07:08 AM
can you just feel the love i have for xsi?:D ...it's okay actually just nothing to offer me in comparison to max/lightwave...i do find some of it's ways quite annoying as my old students will testify!

oDDity
05-29-2007, 07:11 AM
It's often argued that the widespread pirating of Max actually helped build it's market share.
Make of that what you will. I don't know what actual data is available to back that up.

cresshead
05-29-2007, 07:21 AM
yeah probably is quite true...companies do a similar thing thesedays with PLE versions to a degree...

the way i chose my app to buy was to go down to Silicon graphics in london in 1999 when they were showcasing their sgi 320 and 540 intel xeon workstations..down there they had demo guys from all the main companies...so saw what maya, softimage3d [not xsi back then] lightwave and 3dsmax could offer....max blew all the other apps away and that was max2.5..max was doing all of what maya offered but for much less then he dragged out mat editor and dragged n dropped differeent colour changes on a animated object and the colours changed and recorded ..then he demo'd character studio...i knew then if i bought max i'd HAVE to get character studio!...maya just looked too expensive [7500]
softimage just crashed and crashed!...ha ha!
lightwave looked good [5.6] but after i saw character studio...well there ya go!....i eventually got lightwave so no real loss!

sammael
05-29-2007, 08:40 AM
Well, I honestly cant understand why you all love max so much but each for their own. It just seems like a mixed up mess of largely incompatible plugins to me.
I have friends who swear by it and contantly try to get me on side constantly telling me how LW is crap in comparison, max does this max does that. I did use it in a course I completed a while back and I was not very impressed.
Sure its widely supported and whatever but theres layers upon layers of stuff to wade through to do just about anything, you have to do things in the right order and some things are not compatible with eachother. The interface is ugly and unfriendly but I guess its like any package it has its good points and its bad points.
It problems with file imports, if you accidently tweak one of the settings (which is quite easily done) it hangs or crashes.
Its major shortcoming in my opinion is the surface editor which is just disgusting to use and I would have figured thats a fundamental part of any 3D app.
I can't understand why its so big in the industry im sure its due to many factors but not nescesarily the best tools or formats become the standard.

You can tell me how good it is till your blue in the face but I wont buy it.

Character studio is prety cool but its not the bees knees of CA.

Iain
05-29-2007, 08:54 AM
Max is really good - you should buy it. :hey:

0scrooge0
05-29-2007, 08:55 AM
Well, I honestly cant understand why you all love max so much but each for their own. It just seems like a mixed up mess of largely incompatible plugins to me.
I have friends who swear by it and contantly try to get me on side constantly telling me how LW is crap in comparison, max does this max does that. I did use it in a course I completed a while back and I was not very impressed.
Sure its widely supported and whatever but theres layers upon layers of stuff to wade through to do just about anything, you have to do things in the right order and some things are not compatible with eachother. The interface is ugly and unfriendly but I guess its like any package it has its good points and its bad points.
It problems with file imports, if you accidently tweak one of the settings (which is quite easily done) it hangs or crashes.
Its major shortcoming in my opinion is the surface editor which is just disgusting to use and I would have figured thats a fundamental part of any 3D app.
I can't understand why its so big in the industry im sure its due to many factors but not nescesarily the best tools or formats become the standard.

You can tell me how good it is till your blue in the face but I wont buy it.

Character studio is prety cool but its not the bees knees of CA.

Well said !!

bluerider
05-29-2007, 09:03 AM
Max is really good - you should buy it. :hey:

PMSL...........I trained with that package for about 2 years.

To train users in that package took four times as ling to reach the same place in LightWave because its "funky" pull down menus upon pull down menus.

I found it to have lots of cool features but its interface was clumsy to navigate around.

sammael
05-29-2007, 09:07 AM
Max is really good - you should buy it. :hey:
That statement should have read 'I dont buy it'
No I dont think ill piss my money into the wind thanks.

cresshead
05-29-2007, 09:27 AM
gee if ya think max is bad try xsi or cinema 4d!:foreheads

of course all these apps are capable of good things...
thruth is i hate all the apps:devil: ...it's just that i hate lightwave and max i little less!:thumbsup:

Wonderpup
05-29-2007, 10:08 AM
I used max for about five years and it never crashed on me that I can remember- which is pretty impressive. The problem with max is that it is a victim of it's own success- it's like a massive warehouse packed with gizmos, gadgets and widgets- somewhere in there is exactly the tool you need- but finding the bloody thing is the problem. Lightwave is more of a construction kit by comparison- the problem in lightwave is how to cobble together the tool you need out of the available bits. It depends which approach you prefer.

I found that using lightwave got me there faster and with better results- but there are times I miss the ability to do things like animate a lathe operation- so simple in max and near impossible in Lightwave.

cresshead
05-29-2007, 10:26 AM
The problem with max is that it is a victim of it's own success- it's like a massive warehouse packed with gizmos, gadgets and widgets- somewhere in there is exactly the tool you need- but finding the bloody thing is the problem.

you know i find this totally the opposite!...i find i have to hunt down stuff in lightwave...esp as newtek keep changin where things are in each release just when i get used to where stuff sorta is...i usually swap back to 7.0 u.i for some stuff then 8.0 u.i for other stuff but have to have 9.0 u.i for the new suff...nightmare!

they seem to want to shuffle stuff around the tabs all the ime and sometime bin them from a tab and makeit a window....gRRR....and that dratted additiona dropdown...bout time they sorted that out into a proper area and not a long list...

okay max 'fan boy' shutting up!:)...i have at times stayed in 9.0 u.i but simply couldn't locate a tool...and just HAD to go back to 7.0 u.i which tells my the tab names do not really reflect where things are much like tesco has in their supermarket isles...

sammael
05-29-2007, 10:38 AM
The best option is to customise your interface, its quite easy & would save you a lot of headaches if your constantly doing stuff like that. You should probably learn the key commands as well and set your own key bindings for the tools you use most.

cresshead
05-29-2007, 10:44 AM
yeah i know all the ususal suspects hot key shortcuts...it's all the other stuff you only use occasoinally...newtek just seem to love to mess around with where things are in each release but still don't attend to long time old tools found in additional...seems like a storage bin for stuff they can't decide where to put in the proper interface...and i have on occasion made custom tabs, I think it's time once again to spend an afternoon going thru modeler and then layout and make some sense of it for myself with new custom tabs and some new shortcuts..esp as taron has one tab only for ALL of his organic modeling dvd as well as the new tools in 9.2

contrast that with 3dsmax and i've only set up a couple of custom keys...everything else is simple to find.

Twisted Designs
05-29-2007, 11:28 AM
Its seems as if I have started a major debate.

Well, my reason for MY choice is this, I am killing myself right now with taking every available Lightwave tutorial I can find online, studying every document and manual available at all hours of the night. As I have previously said, I took a small basic 3d application course while getting my degree in Multimedia. We spent a couple months playing around with Lightwave, making the obligatory spaceship, chair and table, etc. But that was back in 2000-02. I have forgotten much since spending these last 5 years working solely with 2d work in Photoshop and Illustrator. I am comfortable with Lightwave to some degree. The person who has asked me to come aboard and do some small arch-viz work is the son of a corporate arse-hole..lol.....he is willing to spend ANYTHING as long as in the long run he profits to some extent, if this man spends money and makes back a dollar he is happy..makes little sense to me. To make a long story short, when I informed them I was gonna stick with Lightwave and tuff it out because of my somewhat familiarity with the product he was happy, but wanted to get something else just in case. Or that is what I am told. The 4 guys he already has doing basic arch-viz work are already using 3DSM and I think he wants me to lean that way. I must say though, when looking for online stuff that I can study in my spare time without having to wait days to receive DVDs in the mail, I am really struggling finding much stuff geared towards Lightwave users. There is an over-abundance of MAYA and 3DSM information available and I must admit that it turns me away from Lightwave to some extent. Luckily though, much of the stuff I am finding can be used as great informational data that I can easily apply to Lightwave.

Thanks for all your help guys. All the info provided in this thread as helped me alot.

Chris S. (Fez)
05-29-2007, 12:02 PM
thruth is i hate all the apps:devil: ...it's just that i hate lightwave and max i little less!:thumbsup:

Well said Cresshead! :D

mattclary
05-29-2007, 01:33 PM
actually he single most pirated piece of software is photoshop or microsoft office....

as for price 3dsmax hasn't moved a single penny from release of 3dsmax 1 in 1997 which just shows how strong their sales are...everyone else has been scrapping around for new customers by dropping prices..don't want to soudn like a max fanboy as it's not perfect but it's pretty good enough to convince me to buy it waaay back in 1999...and later on bought lightwave 7.0...i also have xsi fund 4.2 which is a great doorstop for my office/room

I actually checked into the price of 3D Studio for DOS and it was in the same ball park back in about '93 or so. I was using a "copy borrowed from a friend". I was just starting to use AutoCAD and found 3D Studio actually pretty usable. I have tried Max on SEVERAL occasions and could just never get past (what I consider) it's f-ed up interface.

A year or two (or three) ago, I came across some web forum that had lots of info on software of questionable legality. There was one thread that had LITERALLY thousands of posts from people asking for keycodes for Max. And thay usually got answers. It was mind-numbing that there were that many. I figure most of them were looking to mod some game.

I agree with what you said, Oddity. I wonder if it isn't a marketing ploy to recruit new users. I think MS did the same thing with Windows.

bobakabob
05-29-2007, 07:02 PM
Well, I honestly cant understand why you all love max so much but each for their own. It just seems like a mixed up mess of largely incompatible plugins to me.
I have friends who swear by it and contantly try to get me on side constantly telling me how LW is crap in comparison, max does this max does that. I did use it in a course I completed a while back and I was not very impressed.
Sure its widely supported and whatever but theres layers upon layers of stuff to wade through to do just about anything, you have to do things in the right order and some things are not compatible with eachother. The interface is ugly and unfriendly but I guess its like any package it has its good points and its bad points.
It problems with file imports, if you accidently tweak one of the settings (which is quite easily done) it hangs or crashes.
Its major shortcoming in my opinion is the surface editor which is just disgusting to use and I would have figured thats a fundamental part of any 3D app.
I can't understand why its so big in the industry im sure its due to many factors but not nescesarily the best tools or formats become the standard.

You can tell me how good it is till your blue in the face but I wont buy it.

Character studio is prety cool but its not the bees knees of CA.

Agreed. I've used Max sporadically and always found the interface beyond baffling, the 3D equivalent of Dali's Car. The nurbs tools alone will turn your brain inside out. By the time you've found a button to press you're covered in cobwebs having forgotten why you're sitting friendless and alone in an attic room. Fresh air and sunlight are a distant memory. Layers upon layers of big clunky menus reveal increasingly incomprehensible icons. Only the sound of your hard drive grinding away like a washing machine keeps you from lapsing into a coma. I'm in awe of anyone who can model anything more than a teapot. :D

cresshead
05-29-2007, 07:25 PM
re:''I'm in awe of anyone who can model anything more than a teapot. ''

your in awe of a huge number of people then!

Chris S. (Fez)
05-29-2007, 08:32 PM
I started on 3d max 2.5 and read the manuals from cover to cover...which I have not done for any software since (an unwitting strike against its intuitiveness?).

I am baffled that so many folks are baffled by Max. Take a couple days to do the quick-start tutorials and you are good to go.

I of course concede that Lightwave is far easier and more fun to learn. I would LOVE Modeler to catch up to Max and Modo.

sammael
05-29-2007, 09:05 PM
I started on 3d max 2.5 and read the manuals from cover to cover...which I have not done for any software since (an unwitting strike against its intuitiveness?).

I am baffled that so many folks are baffled by Max. Take a couple days to do the quick-start tutorials and you are good to go.

I of course concede that Lightwave is far easier and more fun to learn. I would LOVE Modeler to catch up to Max and Modo.

Well I guess thats the whole point, its simply horrible to use so why use it. I could model anything in max that I can in LW and admittedly it has some handy tools that LW lacks but the pain, its too great to endure....

Chris S. (Fez)
05-29-2007, 11:43 PM
Well I guess thats the whole point, its simply horrible to use so why use it. I could model anything in max that I can in LW and admittedly it has some handy tools that LW lacks but the pain, its too great to endure....

To each his own:thumbsup: . Max has been more or less my main modeler since the addition of Polyboost. It is fantastic for roughing out complex geometry, which I then bring into Lightwave/Modo for refinement and finally into Layout/Fprime for rendering.

Max's splines and snaps also come in handy for models that require any accuracy.

As I and many others have mentioned ad nauseum in this thread and elsewhere, Newtek needs to speed up the subds and consolidate the toolset. Once that happens I'll happily return to Modeler (picking up a copy of LWCAD 2 on the way:) ).

I can't wait for the day when I can comfortably work in one package.

jin choung
05-30-2007, 12:00 AM
absolutely, everyone is entitled to their favorite (or least odious as the case may be).

DEFINITELY agree about the SDS speed up... ESPECIALLY as it pertains to CATMULL CLARK! what the heck? why is this a big deal? other apps switch over to CC or use it as a default without blinking... what's up with our implementation?

and consolidation of tools and ditching redundant functions and such is a huuge deal that needs to be addressed. but this seems to be a "cleanup" task and it should probably be dealt with after they've stabilized on a fairly mature implementation of features... and this may be a bit ways off as yet.

alas, i can't dream of a day where i can settle down in one app ... everywhere i go, there maya is. but the best i can hope for is that lw's interoperability remains and continues to be robust.

jin

sammael
05-30-2007, 01:09 AM
Well all said and done, I think that if people reccomended that I bought max and then I went and bought it after using something like LW I think I would be horrofied when I loaded it up.
I know you max users are hardcore fanboys because I have to put up with it from my mates. But I suspect there are much more friendly apps out there that would make a better choice. Im looking into either maya or xsi at the moment and ill be sure to let you all know what I think, if it turns out that max is generally more user friendly, robust and reliable, ill choke on my own words. I have a sneaking suspicion that its not though.

Chris S. (Fez)
05-30-2007, 01:17 AM
DEFINITELY agree about the SDS speed up... ESPECIALLY as it pertains to CATMULL CLARK! what the heck? why is this a big deal? other apps switch over to CC or use it as a default without blinking... what's up with our implementation?

jin

Seriously. What did happen there?

I might have imagined it, but I somehow got the impression (from Jay's posts perhaps?) that the developers know their implementation is crap and are currently on the case.

Again, that could be complete fabrication:D .

Maya. Ahhhhhhh, the memories. Definitely my dumbest impulse buy ever (those lap dances from the twin midget transexual strippers don't count). I don't miss Maya at all. Except NURBS. Love the Maya NURBS.

Sammael, I think ALL the packages presently available are very capable, including Max. But I admittedly have been using Max for so long that it is probably most like an old, crappy but comfortable pair of sneakers.

sammael
05-30-2007, 01:24 AM
Sammael, I think ALL the packages presently available are very capable, including Max. But I admittedly have been using Max for so long that it is probably most like an old, crappy but comfortable pair of sneakers.

Well I agree with you there, I still think the guy should try things out for himself though. Thats realy my point overall, you guys are saying max is a good solution and im saying that I dont nescesarily think that it is, I think its a matter of taste and one would be silly to dive into such a complex and expensive application without any prior first hand experience.

AbnRanger
05-30-2007, 02:07 AM
Its seems as if I have started a major debate.

Well, my reason for MY choice is this, I am killing myself right now with taking every available Lightwave tutorial I can find online, studying every document and manual available at all hours of the night. As I have previously said, I took a small basic 3d application course while getting my degree in Multimedia. We spent a couple months playing around with Lightwave, making the obligatory spaceship, chair and table, etc. But that was back in 2000-02. I have forgotten much since spending these last 5 years working solely with 2d work in Photoshop and Illustrator. I am comfortable with Lightwave to some degree. The person who has asked me to come aboard and do some small arch-viz work is the son of a corporate arse-hole..lol.....he is willing to spend ANYTHING as long as in the long run he profits to some extent, if this man spends money and makes back a dollar he is happy..makes little sense to me. To make a long story short, when I informed them I was gonna stick with Lightwave and tuff it out because of my somewhat familiarity with the product he was happy, but wanted to get something else just in case. Or that is what I am told. The 4 guys he already has doing basic arch-viz work are already using 3DSM and I think he wants me to lean that way. I must say though, when looking for online stuff that I can study in my spare time without having to wait days to receive DVDs in the mail, I am really struggling finding much stuff geared towards Lightwave users. There is an over-abundance of MAYA and 3DSM information available and I must admit that it turns me away from Lightwave to some extent. Luckily though, much of the stuff I am finding can be used as great informational data that I can easily apply to Lightwave.

Thanks for all your help guys. All the info provided in this thread as helped me alot.Twisted, I sure hate to advocate turning away a copy of Max, but I honestly think you'd be better off keeping the number of tools you have to use/learn to a minimum at this point in the game. LW is a deep toolset in it's own right.
Just let this guy know that once you are past the modeling stage on any given project, that LW 9.2 and a copy of FPrime puts you behind the wheel of a Corvette, so to speak, while those other guys are riding horses and buggies. It really is that unfair!
Ask him to return it if he can and instead invest some of it on FPrime 3, LWCAD 2, and Vue 6 Xstream
http://www.worley.com/
http://www.wtools3d.com/index.php?p=3&content=online_help
http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/vue/vue_6_xstream/

There are some good video tutorials for Vue5/6 at www.asilefx.com
and you can actually download them if you don't want to wait for the DVD's. With Outdoor environments, Vue 6 is simply a-m-a-z-i-n-g, and the time it saves you makes you feel like you cheated on a test.

Show your boss the Vue 6 demostration video and also Fprime's. He'll be really impressed.

Now onto training...I have a number of Kurv studio DVD's...and they are a resource that you will DEFINITELY want to tap into. I also have Dan Alban's Inside LW 8 and his Lightwave 9 Signature course DVD's, and I really like his teaching style. That would really help get you up and running with LW pretty fast too. There are others of course, but in the mean time, I'd strongly suggest checking out www.VTC.com and for $30/mo (you can suspend or cancel anytime), you can't beat it...access to a massive 24/7 video tutorial library of most every CG related software there is...among others. Here's the recent one for Lightwave 3D 9:
http://www.vtc.com/products/LightWave-3D-9-tutorials.htm
and one for Advanced LW modeling:
http://www.vtc.com/products/lightwave3dadvmod.htm

You can check out a handful of videos for free, for evaluation purposes. I like the LW 9 instructor especially, Dewayne Ferguson. He's rather funny at times, and you'll have a decent grasp of LW once you've systematically gone through the tutorials. Check it out.

Dodgy
05-30-2007, 03:15 AM
Can I just say if you like nurbs, you should have a look at easyspline from truart. It's an autopatching plugin which is realtime, so you every time you connect three/four splines at the corners it patches between them...

pooby
05-30-2007, 03:34 AM
Well, I switched to XSI for character animation only. I was quite happy with LW's modelling, but found I had to learn SOME modelling in XSI, just to make joint morphs etc.
After a few weeks I realised I wasnt really using LW any more, and my modelling is signifiantly faster in XSI than LW.
Now I find it way more fun modelling in XSI.
For Example, you can work on one half of a poly head, but in another view see a mirrored sub-d'd version live as you work.
You can draw edges and delete as you like, so it's a breeze changing topology. Its almost like sketching.
The proportional modelling and the 'M' key is excellent, it's like Move, rotate and scale combined with Magnet, drag, merge and slide all in one tool. With Magnet in LW for example, if you move the bottom lip of a character, it will move the top too, as it works with simple proximity. In XSI it will work out the neighborhood, so just the bottom lip will move.
I can't imagine an easier modelling method for modelling topology on characters or organics, than XSI has.

sammael
05-30-2007, 03:52 AM
Well, I switched to XSI for character animation only. I was quite happy with LW's modelling, but found I had to learn SOME modelling in XSI, just to make joint morphs etc.
After a few weeks I realised I wasnt really using LW any more, and my modelling is signifiantly faster in XSI than LW.
Now I find it way more fun modelling in XSI.
For Example, you can work on one half of a poly head, but in another view see a mirrored sub-d'd version live as you work.
You can draw edges and delete as you like, so it's a breeze changing topology. Its almost like sketching.
The proportional modelling and the 'M' key is excellent, it's like Move, rotate and scale combined with Magnet, drag, merge and slide all in one tool. With Magnet in LW for example, if you move the bottom lip of a character, it will move the top too, as it works with simple proximity. In XSI it will work out the neighborhood, so just the bottom lip will move.
I can't imagine an easier modelling method for modelling topology on characters or organics, than XSI has.

Sweet thats nice to know pooby, what are your thoughts on how it handles deatiled meshes? im thinking of switching because I cant get LW to render enough polys and I would like to start getting into animation as well.
Also how do you feel about the surfacing tools and renderer?
Thanks in advance.

pooby
05-30-2007, 04:14 AM
I have not encountered anything annoying or limiting in XSI at all. My experience has just been one of jaw dropping openings of possibilites since I purchased XSI.
I haven't dealt with hugely detailed meshes, as I'm usually just working on one character at a time but apparently its very good with them so I hear. The saying in XSI is, if you can load it, you can render it. They have made a big effort in this area recently with the 'giga-poly core'. (don't ask me what that is)

As for surfacing and renderering, they are both excellent but quite in-depth, and do take a while to learn - I can use it all, but I would say it is by far the area which I am weakest in because I am an Fprime junkie, I really like the simplicity of use with LW's nodes and I can't justify buying loads of Mental Ray licences so I'm happy with porting stuff back to LW to render. (which is a really simple process)
Modelling wise- I am surprised that XSI seems to have a non-existant to poor reputation. It is totally undeserved, because I consider it to be far more direct than anything else I've used.

sammael
05-30-2007, 04:38 AM
Cool thanks for the info, I was under the impression that mental ray was built in, perhaps I misread the website. It says "A shared-memory architecture with the award-winning mental ray renderer built right in"
Giga-poly core is what has me interested, sounds prety cool.
Are you using foundation?

Lightwolf
05-30-2007, 04:49 AM
Cool thanks for the info, I was under the impression that mental ray was built in, perhaps I misread the website.
It is... but you need to pay for render nodes (depending on what version you buy, a varying number of render only licenses are included).

Cheers,
Mike

sammael
05-30-2007, 05:06 AM
Cool understood.

jameswillmott
05-30-2007, 05:11 AM
Seriously. What did happen there?

I might have imagined it, but I somehow got the impression (from Jay's posts perhaps?) that the developers know their implementation is crap and are currently on the case.



I seriously doubt the current implementation is crap, Modeler's foundation is more likely the culprit. :D

oDDity
05-30-2007, 05:19 AM
I don't think XSI modeling has a poor reputation. As far as I'm aware, it's always been compared favourably to Lightwave.
XSI, along with cinema4d and houdini and 3 of the big apps I've never even tried a demo of.

sammael
05-30-2007, 05:22 AM
I don't think XSI modeling has a poor reputation. As far as I'm aware, it's always been compared favourably to Lightwave.
Well if you only had this thread to go by you would be left with the impression that it was rubbish compared to max of all apps :S

oDDity
05-30-2007, 05:26 AM
I think Lightwave is missing a trick as well.
What a lot of these apps do is team themselves up with big upcoming game titles to get a lot of the future CG users hooked into their app.
XSI, maya and max have all done it, given away PLe verisons of their app actually in the DVD of games as the prime piece of modding kit, and gotten guys like 3dbuzz to make exclusive tutorials for ti etc.
Lightwave should take note.

pooby
05-30-2007, 05:30 AM
I don't think XSI modeling has a poor reputation. As far as I'm aware, it's always been compared favourably to Lightwave.
XSI, along with cinema4d and houdini and 3 of the big apps I've never even tried a demo of.

Well, maybe not so much poor, just often overlooked.

For example, there is a huge amount of discussion about Modo as an alternative modeller, but XSI is, I think superior and cheaper but rarely gets a mention for anything but it's outstanding rigging and animation.

oDDity
05-30-2007, 05:42 AM
I was referring to the pre-new kids days. XSI was a close second to LW, with quite a similar workflow.
I've never used it as I say, but that's the impression I got from users of it, and people who had switched from LW or use both.

Twisted Designs
05-30-2007, 06:01 AM
Twisted, I sure hate to advocate turning away a copy of Max, but I honestly think you'd be better off keeping the number of tools you have to use/learn to a minimum at this point in the game. LW is a deep toolset in it's own right.
Just let this guy know that once you are past the modeling stage on any given project, that LW 9.2 and a copy of FPrime puts you behind the wheel of a Corvette, so to speak, while those other guys are riding horses and buggies. It really is that unfair!
Ask him to return it if he can and instead invest some of it on FPrime 3, LWCAD 2, and Vue 6 Xstream
http://www.worley.com/
http://www.wtools3d.com/index.php?p=3&content=online_help
http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/vue/vue_6_xstream/

There are some good video tutorials for Vue5/6 at www.asilefx.com
and you can actually download them if you don't want to wait for the DVD's. With Outdoor environments, Vue 6 is simply a-m-a-z-i-n-g, and the time it saves you makes you feel like you cheated on a test.

Show your boss the Vue 6 demostration video and also Fprime's. He'll be really impressed.

Now onto training...I have a number of Kurv studio DVD's...and they are a resource that you will DEFINITELY want to tap into. I also have Dan Alban's Inside LW 8 and his Lightwave 9 Signature course DVD's, and I really like his teaching style. That would really help get you up and running with LW pretty fast too. There are others of course, but in the mean time, I'd strongly suggest checking out www.VTC.com and for $30/mo (you can suspend or cancel anytime), you can't beat it...access to a massive 24/7 video tutorial library of most every CG related software there is...among others. Here's the recent one for Lightwave 3D 9:
http://www.vtc.com/products/LightWave-3D-9-tutorials.htm
and one for Advanced LW modeling:
http://www.vtc.com/products/lightwave3dadvmod.htm

You can check out a handful of videos for free, for evaluation purposes. I like the LW 9 instructor especially, Dewayne Ferguson. He's rather funny at times, and you'll have a decent grasp of LW once you've systematically gone through the tutorials. Check it out.


Ok, I just checked out that VTC website...and unless I am misunderstanding something I am in heaven. Are you telling me that for $30 a month I can access ANY AND ALL tutorials, DVDs, books, etc. on that site?

pooby
05-30-2007, 06:38 AM
I was referring to the pre-new kids days.

pre-new Kids? do you mean before 'sculpting' apps like Mudbox?

jasonwestmas
05-30-2007, 07:42 AM
There are so many good tools out there now. OF course, many of you know that mental ray is cumbersome and expensive. which is why we are still using lightwave. Or is it something else. Oh yeah, now I remember I guess this forum has it's advantages as well. ;)

Andyjaggy
05-30-2007, 08:16 AM
There are so many good tools out there now. OF course, many of you know that mental ray is cumbersome and expensive. which is why we are still using lightwave. Or is it something else. Oh yeah, now I remember I guess this forum has it's advantages as well. ;)

It's funny how often we all complain about Lightwave but at the end of the day we are still using it :) there must be enough good things about it to keep us hooked.

mattclary
05-30-2007, 08:35 AM
It's all in the interface for me. I don't care if a program can do uber-nurbs or maxi-voxels. Doesn't do me any good if I can't figure out how to use them. LightWave just seems intuitive to me. I don't have the time or willpower to devote to learning something new.

bobakabob
05-30-2007, 08:38 AM
It's funny how often we all complain about Lightwave but at the end of the day we are still using it :) there must be enough good things about it to keep us hooked.

True. We're just spoiled for choice these days.

After ranting about Max (cresshead I wasn't being entirely serious), got to agree with Pooby after using it a few times XSI's modeller feels like a juggernaut of an application.

Lightwave'e Modeller may be sorely in need of some TLC but lets not forget the zillions of free and relatively cheap pro plugins (LWCAD) out there which have always made it a pleasure to work in.

cresshead
05-30-2007, 09:06 AM
xsi looks good on paper and i personally only have xsi 4.2 foundation to go on
but i found the modeling to be 'okay to good'..never got into rigging but there's some preset rigs for bipeds and quadropeds..the thing that stopped me in my tracks was the node editor and the renderer..just seemed waay to convoluted for it's own good...all the ex students who bought xsi do not use it...except 1 who has stuck with it but i've not seen any results from him in quite a while.
maybe version 6.0 is more usable but version 4.2 was okay as a modeler but the renderer was annoying and the material editor in foundation lacked everything to make it vaguly usable...remember that xsi4.2 also shipped with a stack of training discs too and i buoght the 3 printed tutorial manuals as well...i just found it painful to learn so ditched it and went back to lightwave and max...note 3dsmax also has mental ray as a renderer but it's implemented in a simple to use workflow....technically xsi is far more capable in rendering as you can setup passes but i just found it took too long to learn and get basic renders knoocked out...and in 4.2 there was that node editor with no visual feedback on your nodes except for bitmap images...nothing like lightwave node editor where you can 'SEE' the procelual maps and how they look in a node and how the look as you node tree is built...in xsi all you 'see' is the end result in the render region...that just makes for a bad ediing workflow in my opinion...maybe this has changed in version 6.0?

cresshead
05-30-2007, 09:08 AM
at some point in the future i'll have another look at xsi, but currently i'll prefer to learn z brush, max, vue and lightwave
xsi is ideal for poccoyo [tv show made in xsi] as there's just colours!...ha ha!

http://pocoyo.blogs.com/pocoyo/images/pocoyojp.jpg

Lightwolf
05-30-2007, 09:21 AM
note 3dsmax also has mental ray as a renderer but it's implemented in a simple to use workflow....technically xsi is far more capable in rendering...
Not only that, but the max<->mental ray interface is the worst of the bunch, even behind the Maya integration. XSI really shines as far as integrating mr is concerned (not surprising really).

Cheers,
Mike

cresshead
05-30-2007, 09:25 AM
not max 9...much very improved actually...have a look for mentalray specfic video training for 3dmax.

http://www.mentalboutmax.co.uk/Html/home.html


have alook at the add a label to a beer bottle training video from xsi...and you'll cry if you'd had to do that in lightwave...
ridiculas way to map a picture onto a object if you ask me...and THE reason why xsi will continue to look dumb/stupid and childish
in my eyes.

Lightwolf
05-30-2007, 09:33 AM
not max 9...much very improved actually...have a look for mentalray specfic video training for 3dmax.

Hm, I've talked to experienced mental ray users and that is what they told me. One example is the missing support for .map files in max (unless you hack it in).
Then again, most max users I know here (which is just about anybody who does not work on films or does no CA) use VRay anhow...

Cheers,
Mike

sammael
05-30-2007, 09:35 AM
Well the bottom line to me is that unfortunately theres not one studio that I know of in my area that uses Lightwave but theres plenty that use Maya, Max and XSI so if I ever want to do this for a living im going to have to learn something new. I dont like working in max much so that leaves 2 options.

cresshead
05-30-2007, 09:42 AM
i've done 3d for a living since 1999...the app doesn't really matter, it's your 'work' that matters and if your self employed you can use bryce/poser and blender if you want to...the cient buys for final pictures not the apps you use to make 'em...yes there are more 'jobs' out there for 3dsmax and maya and to a smaller degree xsi/lightwave and even smaller cinema4d [tiny] but you'll find studios want good artists not 'app drivers'...you don't even have to be 'really good'...you have to be 'good enough' and reliable enough so they can give you a task and you do the task...

my adivce to people wanting to get 'employed in the industry' woudl be to buy lightwave, zbrush3 and get maya ple and the 3dbuzz training kit...that way you can learn an industry standard app and cost only $99 for the 85 hours of training...you have a full on 3d app [lightwave] for watermark free renders/stills that's cheap and EASY to learn...you have z brish for all that funky organic modeling... all really cheap and good quality too.

cresshead
05-30-2007, 09:51 AM
so...my personal hit list of apps if your on a tight budget:-

lightwave...you already have it...
z brush 3 [300]
maya ple [free]
vue ple [free]
3dbuzz training DVD's on maya [$99]

jasonwestmas
05-30-2007, 09:55 AM
Modeler was used heavily for games 3 years ago especially for the Doom3 engine games (Quake4 as well). For film, lightwave is a wonderful renderer if you just want something fast and of a very nice quality. Even nicer quality now! You can use other renderers for more control over your image but of course that complicates things even more, it's all just a matter of preferance.

I'm sure my workflow is strange to somebody else out there, does that make it bad if I get my projects done on time and they are what the client expects or even more so?

jasonwestmas
05-30-2007, 10:08 AM
i've done 3d for a living since 1999...the app doesn't really matter, it's your 'work' that matters and if your self employed you can use bryce/poser and blender if you want to...the cient buys for final pictures not the apps you use to make 'em...yes there are more 'jobs' out there for 3dsmax and maya and to a smaller degree xsi/lightwave and even smaller cinema4d [tiny] but you'll find studios want good artists not 'app drivers'...you don't even have to be 'really good'...you have to be 'good enough' and reliable enough so they can give you a task and you do the task...

my adivce to people wanting to get 'employed in the industry' woudl be to buy lightwave, zbrush3 and get maya ple and the 3dbuzz training kit...that way you can learn an industry standard app and cost only $99 for the 85 hours of training...you have a full on 3d app [lightwave] for watermark free renders/stills that's cheap and EASY to learn...you have z brish for all that funky organic modeling... all really cheap and good quality too.


Yeah what Cress said. Also if you want to be a generalist (like I kind of am) and show that you know what goes into the whole pipeline you can animate in a package that is easiest (Maya and XSI is fun to rig in IMO) and bring it into lightwave for rendering. It's not too difficult if you know what you are doing.

cresshead
05-30-2007, 12:03 PM
http://webrel2.softimage.com/open/video/xsi06/frame_buffers.flv

reminds me of the fun i have filling in tax return forms...:D

pooby
05-30-2007, 12:55 PM
http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/9844886/modlling.rar.html

For anyone who's curious.. This is a vid of about 15 mins of me modelling in XSI, starting with a cube and drawing topology on (I was sort of basing it loosely on Mr Incredible but didn't have any reference to hand) (sorry I didnt finish, the girlfriend wants me home for tea)
It shows the advantage of having a second view to see a Subd'd symetrical version as you work on the base poly mesh.
Plus you can see me changing my mind about the topology and how easy it is to delete and fix.

AbnRanger
05-30-2007, 01:17 PM
Ok, I just checked out that VTC website...and unless I am misunderstanding something I am in heaven. Are you telling me that for $30 a month I can access ANY AND ALL tutorials, DVDs, books, etc. on that site?
yep

Lightwolf
05-30-2007, 01:30 PM
reminds me of the fun i have filling in tax return forms...:D
Hehe, funny. Especially since I know tons of LW users that would like to see that functionality in LW :D This is just soooooo extremely useful.

Cheers,
Mike

jojolimited
05-30-2007, 01:52 PM
pooby, are you using foundation or essentials?

Chris S. (Fez)
05-30-2007, 01:54 PM
http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/9844886/modlling.rar.html

For anyone who's curious.. This is a vid of about 15 mins of me modelling in XSI, .

Cool. I always find it fascinating to watch others work. Your method of drawing/deleting/adjusting details is almost identical to my Polyboost workflow.

In Max I have to use the modifier stack to get that separate subd view and, as far as I know, it is impossible to achieve in Modo. Convenient that it is a simple viewport setting in XSI.

Would love to see this stuff in modeler.

bobakabob
05-30-2007, 02:01 PM
http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/9844886/modlling.rar.html

For anyone who's curious.. This is a vid of about 15 mins of me modelling in XSI, starting with a cube and drawing topology on (I was sort of basing it loosely on Mr Incredible but didn't have any reference to hand) (sorry I didnt finish, the girlfriend wants me home for tea)
It shows the advantage of having a second view to see a Subd'd symetrical version as you work on the base poly mesh.
Plus you can see me changing my mind about the topology and how easy it is to delete and fix.

Cheers, Pooby, that looks fantastic. I wish I was that fast. Have you seen Taron's Gnomon tutorial, he's creating heads using the box method in Lightwave with a similarly intuitive method. What would you like to see in Lightwave's Modeler?

alifx
05-30-2007, 03:10 PM
I haven't seen that video, (slow net connection)

we want in modeler
- fast sub-d's
- a real split tool that cut edges anywhere on polygons
- proper Mirror Symmetry
- soft selections
- brush tools (push,pull,grab...etc)
- Lattice (in modeler !?)
- edge remove tool
- improved edge bevels tool (or improved rounder)
- gizmooooooo's
- need to merge some tools together
- HISTORY or instances
- better weight painting
- ability to Lock visible layers
- Macros

what else?

we should make a list of all features we need and put them in the feature request forum and try to tell moderators to make it sticky, and newtek should see that lightwave not only needs to be improved in CA stuff, but in modeling too.

cheers

pooby
05-30-2007, 03:29 PM
What would you like to see in Lightwave's Modeler?


I'd like to see Modeler in Layout to be honest. I think its a waste of time developing modeller separately because LWs toolset needs to be one coherant set of combinable tools as XSI is. The concept of 'modelling' in XSI is blurred right the way into animation because they are not separate as they are in LW. You can animate the modelling procedure, and for me, that is very exciting.

But, I would like to have the ability to draw on topology. at the end of the day (organic) modelling is just a matter of moving vertices/edges/polys about and adding/connecting with new ones, so this should be as quick as possible. You don't want to keep clicking to drop tools and grab new ones all the time, it should be as seamless as possible. Like you were just using your hands to draw and sculpt.
This is why I like XSI. in that vid I use about 3 tools in total. Anyone could pick up that method in an afternoon. It's totally basic and very fast.

-and I'd like a set of tools that you can combine together to make new ones. Modelers tools are too author-defined. This is why we have lots of variations on the same theme in LW.
I love LW, but my love for it seems to be more and more focused on the renderer these days.

Once modelling is in Layout then things will change big time I think.

oDDity
05-30-2007, 03:35 PM
Yeah ,that looks like a very interesting workflow for organics in XSI.
Only thing is, I only use poly modelers for base meshes now so it hardly seems worth the bother of changing to another app.

pooby
05-30-2007, 04:07 PM
pooby, are you using foundation or essentials?

I'm using Advanced in that clip but it would be identical in foundation. 95% of the tools are in foundation and certainly all the usefull modelling tools.
It just doesnt have stuff like Hair or Syflex etc.. just higher end stuff that you use once in a blue moon.

sammael
05-30-2007, 07:40 PM
Nice viedo pooby, can you work in subd mode like in LW or is it more like the max system of subd afterwards?

cresshead
05-30-2007, 07:55 PM
xsi can work just like lw in subd mode with phantom points, you can up/down res your sub d level with the + and - keys and xsi has instancing and referencing so in that regard it's pretty good.

sammael
05-30-2007, 08:19 PM
Sweet thanks, im sold.

lots
05-31-2007, 07:01 AM
- edge remove tool

Thats already there... check out dissolve.

I would love to see instancing and a history stack in LW :) Since I primarily model in LW, the rendering stuff that has happened recently have not really been useful to me on a large scale. While the upgrade is appreciated, my favorite part of the app has remain relatively unchanged for several versions. I want big changes to every aspect of modeler :P

My biggest want is tool consolidation. No more of this one tool for points one for polys one for edges business... The tool should be smart enough to know what to do with my selection.

alifx
05-31-2007, 12:49 PM
I know... I was going to edit that post, but after two minutes I couldn't


My biggest want is tool consolidation. No more of this one tool for points one for polys one for edges business... The tool should be smart enough to know what to do with my selection.
your right... we don't have smart/interactive tools in modeler, unless some other plugins that are like LW CAD.

alifx
05-31-2007, 01:50 PM
I've just saw that video, that's a fantastic way in modeling.
what can I say, I'm just sad about modeler

Cageman
05-31-2007, 03:31 PM
Check out the feature videos at the xsi site it looks truly awesome.
Sorry for the negative post but I fear people may have led you down the wrong path.

Hmm... I'm not so sure about that. Blizzard Cinematics team use Max and they do produce some of the best looking game-cinematics right now. IMHO, Max seems to be like LightWave; really good in the right hands....

Cageman
05-31-2007, 03:39 PM
Just to clarify... Game-cinematics that is rendered...

Chris S. (Fez)
05-31-2007, 04:11 PM
IMHO, Max seems to be like LightWave; really good in the right hands....

Yep :thumbsup: .

pooby
05-31-2007, 04:30 PM
Are there any apps that are really good in the wrong hands?

LightWuv
05-31-2007, 05:17 PM
Are there any apps that are really good in the wrong hands?


That is a question for mad scientists I suppose. :D



Wuv
doing bad things to good people - mit SCIENCE! Also, apps.

sammael
05-31-2007, 09:21 PM
Yeah max is fine for those who can handle its workflow, im just not one of them. Its CA tools are about 100x better than LW just not the best I dont think.

jin choung
05-31-2007, 10:01 PM
Its CA tools are about 100x better than LW just not the best I dont think.

heh heh,

among the big 5, whose isn't? :)

jin

AbnRanger
06-01-2007, 12:38 AM
Since Softimage bought the former Max C.A. Plugin, C.A.T.,
is that now part of XSI, or are they still working on integrating into the program? Pretty nice alternative to Character Studio, but Autodesk could've chosen it instead of C.S.
Wonder why they didn't. I know Character Studio has a pretty nice crowd simulation component. Don't know if C.A.T. does. Maybe that's one reason.

On another note, I wonder what Newtek's approach toward Modeler is going to be. Will they just slap on some chrome rims and and give her a new paint job, or are they going to redesign and build a new machine from scratch? I'm hoping it's the latter, but have a feeling it's going to be the former.
I guess that's much or the reason for the split with the guys now at Modo. They wanted the latter too, but "someone" didn't want such a drastic change, and just thought some "tweaks" were a better option. We can see "they" were wrong..because what if LW today was what Modo is, plus everything Modo is not...yet (with animation, particles and dynamics, etc.). You know that would've shaken the market a good deal.

colkai
06-01-2007, 02:49 AM
Are there any apps that are really good in the wrong hands?
Ya know, that there is a comment that should be made law to read. ;)

For sure, a good program will help over an inferior one, but no program is gonna help someone if they don't apply themselves.

Kinda like a keyboard player I knew, all the latest toys but, ahem, yes, a better amp does not improve finger co-ordination :p (err, why did that sound rude to me? :hey: )

oDDity
06-01-2007, 03:16 AM
..because like most people here you're mortally obsessed with not hurting anyone's feelings, even if it means outright lying.

bobakabob
06-01-2007, 06:03 AM
True what you say about keyboards... too many options tweaking sound modules detract from actually playing the thing. These days when I'm playing guitar it's a challenge to either play acoustic or plug direct into an amp without too many fancy effects.

colkai
06-01-2007, 06:16 AM
Not to drag this OT, but yeah, I find I spend more time sat down with my acoustic these days, or just run my other guitars through a little preamp to headphones.

bobakabob
06-01-2007, 08:05 AM
:dito: Ageing hippies huh? ;)

Re Modelling apps, as a result of so much choice we've never had it so good. However it would be nice long term to have an all in one Modelling tool built into Layout. A pipe dream perhaps, but the ability to animate vertices is surely long overdue. I once installed the innovatory Japanese plugin MiniMo which actually worked in LW 7 but over time it felt like trying to use tweezers with boxing gloves. In the meantime ZBrush is a superb complementary tool for surfacing and displacements.

Despite it's undoubted power (Pooby's video makes that clear) IMO one odd flaw in XSI's modeller are these extremely long clunky submenus of modelling tools (On first impression it seems rather clumsy and Max like). Figuring out the hotkeys is essential in XSI (haven't got that far yet). IMO Lightwave Modeler's Production interface config is much more accessible and logically designed.

Cageman
06-01-2007, 03:05 PM
Are there any apps that are really good in the wrong hands?

Well, let me put it this way instead... there are apps that people believe are inferior to other apps and having that belief make these people not wanting to learn the inferior app. So, before they even know how to use the inferior app, they think they know it all and concludes that it is a piece of crap...

Trust me when I say I've seen that behavior alot.... :)

sammael
06-02-2007, 04:02 AM
Well, let me put it this way instead... there are apps that people believe are inferior to other apps and having that belief make these people not wanting to learn the inferior app. So, before they even know how to use the inferior app, they think they know it all and concludes that it is a piece of crap...

Trust me when I say I've seen that behavior alot.... :)

There are also apps that are not nescesarily suited to everyone although they might be quite capable. Some people just because they are use to and prefer a certain app themselves try to push it on to other people as if it was the best option. I see this type of behavior a lot.
I for example have used max quite extensively and dont like the overall workflow although I think its generally more advanced and well rounded application as a whole compared to say LW. Thats what I would base my opinion on and in conclusion decide that Max is an excelent program except for one crytical flaw, and as a result I choose not to use it.
I think its reasonalbe to point out that opinion as others have.

IMI
06-02-2007, 06:19 AM
I know it's just a matter of saving an object out of modo as .lwo and then opening it in Layout, but it'd be cool to see a plugin for modo to Layout that works the same way as Modeler to Hub to Layout and back again.
But hell, I'm still waiting for Right Hemisphere to make a transfer plugin for Deep Paint 3D that works with LW 8.5, let alone 9.2 (I actually haven't tried the plugin with 9.2, because when I tried it with 8.5 I had nothing but trouble. it worked - sort of - with 8.0, and very well with 7.0-7.5)
I'm kinda hoping RH abandons Deep Paint 3D and someone picks it up who has some interest in it.

But back to the topic, I'm just learning modo, but having an even easier time with that than I did with LW Modeler. IMO, modo has all the tools Modeler should have already had, including superfast OGL
I still prefer Modeler's interface though, but the ability to customize it to an extreme in modo is great, too. I'm especially impressed with how well modo .lwo models play nice with Modeler and Layout. :)

oDDity
06-02-2007, 08:22 AM
They already have abandoned Deep Paint 3d, it hasn't been updated in at least 4 years, a apart form maybe the plugins for new versions of 3d apps.
Switch to bodypaint, or zbrush.

cresshead
06-02-2007, 09:10 AM
Since Softimage bought the former Max C.A. Plugin, C.A.T.,
is that now part of XSI, or are they still working on integrating into the program? Pretty nice alternative to Character Studio, but Autodesk could've chosen it instead of C.S.
Wonder why they didn't. I know Character Studio has a pretty nice crowd simulation component. Don't know if C.A.T. does. Maybe that's one reason.

On another note, I wonder what Newtek's approach toward Modeler is going to be. Will they just slap on some chrome rims and and give her a new paint job, or are they going to redesign and build a new machine from scratch? I'm hoping it's the latter, but have a feeling it's going to be the former.
I guess that's much or the reason for the split with the guys now at Modo. They wanted the latter too, but "someone" didn't want such a drastic change, and just thought some "tweaks" were a better option. We can see "they" were wrong..because what if LW today was what Modo is, plus everything Modo is not...yet (with animation, particles and dynamics, etc.). You know that would've shaken the market a good deal.


C.A.T is now owned by softimage but is strictly a 3dsmax plugin at this time, there's nothing in xsi from c.a.t. at the moment...maybe xsi7.0 advanced might have c.a.t. intergrated when it ships in 2008 or maybe it'll be a plugin available to all xsi's including foundation...or maybe it'll remain a plugin only for 3dsmax...or maybe they'll kill it off as a max plugin to make the max users of c.a.t go n buy xsi advanced...

...who knows!

character studio have been around since max 1.2 days...ie a long time, autodesk/kinetix/discreet/autodesk had a good relationship/partnership with the developers of characters studio and that's why they chose charcter studio i believe...cat was offered but common rumor was the c.a.t dveleopers wanted quite a high price for the company/plugin...similar to the hypermatter evelopment team...which resurfaced years later as a maya plugin.

regarding newtek's modeler i agree with pooby..modeler needs to move wholesale into layout and have all of it's capabilities envelopeable with some sort of modifier stack...i prefer the moifier stack [ala 3dsmax] approach to that of a history approach [like xsi and maya] as on the surface it looks less capable but in real world usage a modifier stack is far more prefereable to a history as ususally history needs to be frozen/deleted whereas modifiers can be easy to track/understand and be turned off and on at a moment's whim to try out ideas.

sammael
06-02-2007, 09:27 AM
regarding newtek's modeler i agree with pooby..modeler needs to move wholesale into layout and have all of it's capabilities envelopeable with some sort of modifier stack...i prefer the moifier stack [ala 3dsmax] approach to that of a history approach [like xsi and maya] as on the surface it looks less capable but in real world usage a modifier stack is far more prefereable to a history as ususally history needs to be frozen/deleted whereas modifiers can be easy to track/understand and be turned off and on at a moment's whim to try out ideas.

I think its nice to have a seperate modeler, although it could be less cluttered.
I dont agree that modeler should be moved to within layout, it would be nice to have modeling capabilities within layout but only the tools that are going to be of any use for animatable operations.
As for a modifier stack, if they do that I hope its implimented better than the one in max.

cresshead
06-02-2007, 09:42 AM
well a history stack looks better on paper but if you've used one you'll kow thaty most of the time you have to delete the history often to get decent feedback on your model...it's cool that you could go back 50 operation and delete that 1 thing but in practice you don't...so it's more like a 'deluxe undo' than much eles...whereas whilst a modifier stack doesn't record all your moves like a history stack you can actually keep it and not have to delete it..you can try ideas out and re order modifiers such as bent then twist or twist then bend for example also you can add edit poly mods to try out someting and if you don't like it you just delete that modfier.

so what would your ideal modifier/history stack...how would you improve on the ones in maya, xsi and 3dsmax for example?

sammael
06-02-2007, 10:10 AM
I cant say much about maya or xsi, but as for the one in max i dont like how its just a massive list of modifiers that are largely incompatible with eachother and/or have to be peiced together in a certain order to work effectively or at all. Its been a while since I used max but I remember having to collapse the stack anyway, effectively loosing that history.
I think it would be nice to have a more ordered system.

IMI
06-02-2007, 10:54 AM
They already have abandoned Deep Paint 3d, it hasn't been updated in at least 4 years, a apart form maybe the plugins for new versions of 3d apps.
Switch to bodypaint, or zbrush.


Yeah, I know, but they're still selling it in a bundle with Deep UV, IIRC, which isn't a true abandonment, unfortunately, just more of a felonious neglect. ;)
I emailed their support a year or so ago and asked them if they'd be making a plugin for LW 8.5 that actually worked, and the answer I got back was to the effect of, "Whaddya mean? It works fine with LW 8.5..." I didn't even bother to reply - based on how well they hide DP3D on their site, it was obvious they'd lost interest. At least they keep at it with Deep Exploration.

Body Paint I've tried, and have considered getting, but don't know if it works with LW 9.2. Don't know much at all about it, actually.
ZBrush has a plugin for transfering .lwo objects back and forth? That's what I'm interested in mostly - efficiency and speed. With DP3D I can still at least manually load .lwo objects, thoigh if the textures aren't in the same folder, have to do the Browse thing.

oobievision
06-02-2007, 11:15 AM
well zbrush is awsome for charecter modeling then I would bring that charecter into lightwave layout and use fprime to map it. the only drawback ive seen in lightwave is no liquid dynamics. modeling is easy and you dont buy super ridiouculus plugins to get what you want out of it. 3d max is cool but I used 3d max for 5 years until I found lightwave 9, for the price and the power it has I wouldnt use it any other program. Stick to lightwave. ounce you get the hang of it youll love it it as much as we do here. books and dvd's by dan ablan are ur best resources and arent a big penny pusher if u know what I mean. dans book inside lightwave v9 is great even comes with video tutorials and reference objects and scenes

cresshead
06-02-2007, 11:23 AM
the things that lightwave modeler lacks is manipulators for move scale rotate, a coordinate system like in layout such a world, object, local and sub-object local [individual polys/points] a history of any kind and tools that work where you can go back and tweek the settings...currently we only get settings as we open the tools up once committed you just have a bunch of polys again...whilst other areas in lightwave modeler are really fast and neat the lack of the above will always have me jumping back into 3dsmax for certain things...both max and lightwave modeler are not perfect by any means.

currently the closest is polyboost in max and z brush to a pefect way to model.