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View Full Version : LW Connect vs 3DArsenal



dantor
05-22-2007, 03:00 PM
What does LW Connect offer that 3D Arsenal doesn't. I use 3D Arsenal alot. Besides LW Connect working with the SpeedEDIT timeline and bringing it back in. I'm sure there are diffrent scenes, anything else? Thanks

Ivan
05-22-2007, 03:59 PM
Both are great programs, both are for different things. Both offer premade scenes but 3DArsenal scenes will produce short clips for your project while LWConnect was designed as a DVE Engine - sort of - it can be so much more. Personally I feel that LWConnect would work very well with 3DArsenal if Newtek would work with Bob.

Here is the beauty of LWConnect:

Imagine that you have a 2 hour clip and you want 30 seconds of that video mapped onto a polygon. Which is easier, drop the clip on the timeline looking at a full screen preview and set the in and out point or find the in and out point using the 1 inch preview in LW? If the scene is created correctly LW Connect does all the work for you by mapping each track onto a specific polygon and puts the rendered output from LW onto the timeline. Here is the real beauty of LWConnect in my mind, we have all seen the video walls with 200 clips floating by. Imagine mapping each clip to a polygon in LW by hand and setting the in and out points. YUCK! Now imagine dumping the clips on the timeline in SE or VT and setting the in and out point in a program that is designed for that, click a button and the scene is rendered out. Now you have another client that wants the same opening! Drop thier video on the timeline and click the same button! Not saying you can't do it with just LW but everyone here seem to go by the addage "The right tool for the job" and setting the in and out points of 200 clips in LW seems a little nuts to me.

[RANT]
Truly these products could be made to compliment each other if Newtek would ever realize the importance of product integration. So far nothing that I have seen in the recent past indicates that they are interested in making the family of products that they have work together any better than they work with anything else that you could buy. They own Aura, LW, VT, Tricaster and SE. If you buy them it is as though you bought them from different companies who never heard of each other. Microsoft gets it, Apple gets it, Ulead gets it, Sony gets it, Adobe gets it, when will Newtek get it????
[/RANT OFF]

Ivan

ScorpioProd
05-22-2007, 05:26 PM
www.bobfx.com

Info, demo and tutorial are all there.

Danic101
05-22-2007, 06:56 PM
The problem with LWConnect is the content isn't very good with 3D Arsenal you get great content and its really ease to use. The Easy Text plugin is awesome!

Ivan
05-22-2007, 08:08 PM
Ahh, now I'm not going to get into it with you about content because both have good content and both have content that I would not ever use. That said, do you own LWConnect? Here is the thing that I think you are missing. LWConnect is only partly about the content (although it comes with a lot of good and unique scenes). LWConnect actually creates a link between LW and SE or VT. The thing is you can go into your 3dArsenal scenes and make them work with LWConnect, it's been done and it makes sense. I have no idea why Newtek would not sell both versions of 3dArsenal, a LWConnect version and a stand alone version.

As for easy to use, how much easier do you want, select a scene and hit render from the timeline?? As I reread your post I am beginning to believe that you really don't have LWConnect. And again, I'm not saying anything negative about 3DArsenal, Easy Text is a great plugin. They have good stuff and it would be hard to choose between the two. I have both and have used both. Each is worth the investment for different reasons.

Ivan

Bobt
05-22-2007, 08:10 PM
Hi,

There are over 170 unique scenes. How many have you seen?
Watch the video demo's. There were quite a few people checking it out at NAB NewTek party.

You can make,modify and create your own. Its a pretty open system with
tutorials on that.

http://www.bobfx.com/SETutorials/BobsLWConnectTutorial/LWConnect.html
http://www.bobfx.com/DemoReel.wmv and you can watch an overview of
all the plugins.

Its all Good. I wish I could say bad things about 3DA but I cant.
I think its a good product. LWC works on the timeline
3DA works outside the timeline. Depends on how you want to work.

Bob

Rich Deustachio
05-22-2007, 09:35 PM
LWC seems like it is the Hollywood FX for VT.

Bobt
05-22-2007, 09:42 PM
Hollywood FX
Yeah I remember them does anyone have a list of there effects?
They had a lot. And there is nothing LW cant do.

Bob

Verlon
05-23-2007, 08:29 AM
I could probably make one....I have the full version. HFX also takes LW 5 objects too.

toasterhombre
05-23-2007, 11:51 AM
It comes down to oppurtunity costs and prioritizing. Back in the tdudes days we were talking with bob about integrating lwconnect and 3DA. Things moved sort of slowly and after we were aquired by NewTek bob approached us again about integrating. At that point it is not my call any more. I think if there was a huge installed base of LWconnect users it may make some sense, but we also have a bunch of stuff we are working on, that would most likely keep getting bumped ahead of any lwconnect stuff.

I think it is safe to say comparing the two is apples and oranges. The major difference as pointed out by myself, and bob amongst others is whether you prefer doing 3d in your editor or not. For the stuff we are doing, it makes way more sense to not do it in the NLE. . . . . . for now. . . .

The other major difference is if you want to do 3D logos and text as well. . . 3DA does that.

Users can watch the demos, and demo reels and decide which is best for them, or use both! No harm in having more tools.

BTW, we have updated the 3DA site a bunch in the last few weeks and that has resulted in more traffic and more sales. Check it out:

http://www.newtek.com/3DA/

Don has started doing advanced tutorials and has done an advanced one on dealing with some issues when doing an EPS import. Stay tuned for more advanced tutorials to help get the most out of 3DA!

Did I mention we won an award from EventDV magazine? lol. . . . sorry. . .can't help it. . . .we are like proud poppas when "our baby" gets some recognition!


Both are great programs, both are for different things. Both offer premade scenes but 3DArsenal scenes will produce short clips for your project while LWConnect was designed as a DVE Engine - sort of - it can be so much more. Personally I feel that LWConnect would work very well with 3DArsenal if Newtek would work with Bob.

Here is the beauty of LWConnect:

Imagine that you have a 2 hour clip and you want 30 seconds of that video mapped onto a polygon. Which is easier, drop the clip on the timeline looking at a full screen preview and set the in and out point or find the in and out point using the 1 inch preview in LW? If the scene is created correctly LW Connect does all the work for you by mapping each track onto a specific polygon and puts the rendered output from LW onto the timeline. Here is the real beauty of LWConnect in my mind, we have all seen the video walls with 200 clips floating by. Imagine mapping each clip to a polygon in LW by hand and setting the in and out points. YUCK! Now imagine dumping the clips on the timeline in SE or VT and setting the in and out point in a program that is designed for that, click a button and the scene is rendered out. Now you have another client that wants the same opening! Drop thier video on the timeline and click the same button! Not saying you can't do it with just LW but everyone here seem to go by the addage "The right tool for the job" and setting the in and out points of 200 clips in LW seems a little nuts to me.

[RANT]
Truly these products could be made to compliment each other if Newtek would ever realize the importance of product integration. So far nothing that I have seen in the recent past indicates that they are interested in making the family of products that they have work together any better than they work with anything else that you could buy. They own Aura, LW, VT, Tricaster and SE. If you buy them it is as though you bought them from different companies who never heard of each other. Microsoft gets it, Apple gets it, Ulead gets it, Sony gets it, Adobe gets it, when will Newtek get it????
[/RANT OFF]

Ivan

Ivan
05-23-2007, 01:10 PM
I agree pretty much completely. I have however heard a rumor that all the 3DA content has already been converted to work with LWConnect. Not sure why it would not be made available but that's just me. I have both, I use both, it would be hard to choose if I were forced to pick only one.

Ivan

toasterhombre
05-24-2007, 01:35 PM
Realize that when we first talked about making a #D Arsenal work with LW Connect it was 3 guys talking. Myself, Don and Bob. Also at the time 3D Arsenal wa nothing more than a collection of content for lightwave, that basically was only sold into the relatively small VT market, so it made sense and would be easy to implement by 3 guys.

Now 3D Arsenal is so much more. 3D Arsenal is now selling to a much larger market, and is owned by NewTek.

It is not a matter of "making it available". It would require a lot of work which would include new installer, extensive testing, new SKUs added to NewTek sales system, new BOM, new packaging or sticker designed to designate that it is the LW connect version.

Possible pitfalls? Lots. Confused customers that order the wrong version. Tech support calls to NewTek with issues that may be related to LW Connect. If there is a VT upgrade and LW Connect stops working, some customers will call NewTek.

LWConnect appeals to a very small group of people. VT users. That is very cool, but 3D Arsenal has moved well beyond that. Unless I am mistaken there are very few LWconnect users out there, a small fraction of the current 3DA installed base and certainly the future 3DA Installed base. Both 3DA and LWconnect started out targeting niche markets. Because 3DA comes with LW we are no longer limited to that niche market.

I would love to do it, but honestly we have so many irons in the fire and some bigger fish to fry, that I don't see it happening. Never say never, but I am trying to be honest and point out it isn't always as simple as it looks.

I am sure with Bob branching out to wider markets with SE plug ins and possibly working with other editors etc, he would have less time to devote to a smaller niche market as well. That ship seems to have sailed buddy;-)

BTW Ivan in all the years we have been selling 3DA we only had maybe 6 requests for LWconnect compatibility. . . . and 5 of them were from you;-)





I agree pretty much completely. I have however heard a rumor that all the 3DA content has already been converted to work with LWConnect. Not sure why it would not be made available but that's just me. I have both, I use both, it would be hard to choose if I were forced to pick only one.

Ivan

ScorpioProd
05-24-2007, 01:54 PM
LWConnect appeals to a very small group of people. VT users.

Of course, it is also possible that LWC may very soon be moving WAY beyond that...

Cause note that what you mention below includes LWC, too... :hey:



I am sure with Bob branching out to wider markets with SE plug ins and possibly working with other editors etc, he would have less time to devote to a smaller niche market as well. That ship seems to have sailed buddy;-)

billmi
05-24-2007, 03:20 PM
The topic of this thread was very misleading.

I was expecting to see Don, Ralph and Bob in a no-holds-barred cage match.

Bobt
05-24-2007, 03:58 PM
I love Don and Ralph. Great Guys! No kidding.
We kind of fell on the same thing at the same time except we went two
different ways ;) And I am sure with Ralphs size I wouldnt stand a chance
GEEZ hes over 6 feet and he aint small. I would have to south side him to
have a chance.

>I am sure with Bob branching out to wider markets with SE plug ins and
>possibly working with other editors etc, he would have less time to devote
>to a smaller niche market as well. That ship seems to have sailed buddy;-)
Yes I a working on that...
So if any of you guys have other editors and are intrested in seeing LWC in or any of my other stuff let me know! I am all ears these days.

Bob

Ivan
05-24-2007, 04:25 PM
BTW Ivan in all the years we have been selling 3DA we only had maybe 6 requests for LWconnect compatibility. . . . and 5 of them were from you;-)


Most people see LWConnect as a DVE engine, I see it as more. I can't be the only one that sees the value of making programs work together, I may be the only one saying something. Or maybe I'm wrong, making it so you can export segments of the timeline to Aura or LW is a ridiculous idea and I should just shut up. I just can't figure out why Adobe and Apple went through the trouble if it's so crazy. I know, Newtek doesn't want to be like everyone else but isn't that like GM saying "we won't use round wheels because everyone else does"?

Now, that said (Tricaster) I know that (Tricaster) Newtek has (Tricaster) more important (Tricaster) things to (Tricaster) do than integrate their (Tricaster) programs to work together (Tricaster).

Hope I wasn't to subtle there. :hey:

Ivan

SBowie
05-24-2007, 04:28 PM
Ivan, you're not usually so subliminal ;)

UnCommonGrafx
05-25-2007, 07:52 AM
Ivan,
I ...


I, too, wonder why the paradigm of integration has escaped us.

These two tools are like apples and oranges: comparisons are solely based on the apps they use. Beyond that, their comparisons are slim.
And for the record: any 3DA scene can work within the LWC paradigm if you know your way around LW. And if you make your own preview files, they will work, too.


I always thought that the community would want such integration. Seems I'm way off base and have been for some time. It amazes me that other nles are looking for integration while it seems it's pushed away here.

Being able to drop your Video timeline into your 3D program to later get back a color-matched custom-made dve always sounded really sexy to me. Still does.

toasterhombre
05-25-2007, 10:26 AM
Hey. . .I never said integration was not a good thing. I have been looking into that as well. I am not the person to speak for development etc and can't say when or even if any of these ideas are implemented.

There are certain features being added to LW in the very near future that will allow us to do more stuff outside of LW.

As for Tricaster. . . . . it rocks. . . and has been incredibly successful. When studio comes out 3DA will be an even better add on as TC Studio can do animated graphics on the overlay bus. . . . not to mention virtual sets etc.


Most people see LWConnect as a DVE engine, I see it as more. I can't be the only one that sees the value of making programs work together, I may be the only one saying something. Or maybe I'm wrong, making it so you can export segments of the timeline to Aura or LW is a ridiculous idea and I should just shut up. I just can't figure out why Adobe and Apple went through the trouble if it's so crazy. I know, Newtek doesn't want to be like everyone else but isn't that like GM saying "we won't use round wheels because everyone else does"?

Now, that said (Tricaster) I know that (Tricaster) Newtek has (Tricaster) more important (Tricaster) things to (Tricaster) do than integrate their (Tricaster) programs to work together (Tricaster).

Hope I wasn't to subtle there. :hey:

Ivan

SBowie
05-25-2007, 10:31 AM
As for Tricaster. . . . . it rocks. . . and has been incredibly successful. When studio comes out 3DA will be an even better add on as TC Studio can do animated graphics on the overlay bus. . . . not to mention virtual sets etc.Using both, I can say with complete assurance that VT (though more to my liking personally) could definitely learn some lessons from TC. Simplification is not a bad thing, provided power isn't lost in the process.

CreatvGnius
05-25-2007, 10:45 AM
So if any of you guys have other editors and are [interested] in seeing LWC in or any of my other stuff let me know! I am all ears these days.
Bob

I might suggest your looking into the Sony Vegas ship, for to consider boarding with LWC, there BobT!:hey:

Ivan
05-25-2007, 10:49 AM
I assure you that was not a slam on Tricaster. It does however seem that many things have taken a back seat development wise to Tricaster. From the time it was introduced it had features included or added that were not included or added to the more expensive and "more powerful" VT until later.

Ivan

toasterhombre
05-25-2007, 12:00 PM
On the plus side Tricaster's success has made it possible to have a larger dev team working on more products. That is a good thing. I am sure the fact that SE now has a dedictated team of developers is at least partially because of the success of Tricaster.

Also many of those features came about as a result of the Tricaster Development. I think it is great that NewTek also makes them available on other products whenever possible.



I assure you that was not a slam on Tricaster. It does however seem that many things have taken a back seat development wise to Tricaster. From the time it was introduced it had features included or added that were not included or added to the more expensive and "more powerful" VT until later.

Ivan

Ivan
05-25-2007, 01:13 PM
I guess time will tell if that really is the case.

Ivan

Verlon
10-31-2007, 02:31 AM
So I'll add my name in the hat to up the ante to SEVEN requests for integration-- I think its a great idea.

Rich Deustachio
10-31-2007, 11:24 AM
Just keep in mind that one of the biggest reason the Trinity went under was because the editor sucked.

Rich Deustachio
10-31-2007, 11:27 AM
I remember back a few years NewTek saying that using hardware was a bad thing because you would have to buy new expensive hardware to upgrade. Can you say Tricaster, Tricaster Pro, Tricaster Studio. They said since the VT was software based, it would be less expensive to upgrade.

ScorpioProd
10-31-2007, 12:53 PM
Well, yeah, but Newtek isn't always right...

They said that software would be quicker to update, too... :hey:

But seriously, the reality is that TriCaster is their market for bread and butter, there is a big demand for stand-alone systems, totally self-contained, and at a lower level than what something like a VT or dedicated NLE can do.

For that, they were certainly right, or else they wouldn't be in business today.

Verlon
10-31-2007, 02:54 PM
I remember back a few years NewTek saying that using hardware was a bad thing because you would have to buy new expensive hardware to upgrade. Can you say Tricaster, Tricaster Pro, Tricaster Studio. They said since the VT was software based, it would be less expensive to upgrade.

Being better is not the same thing as winning the market..
The software solution may be better, but that doesn't mean that people are choosing to buy it.

Rich Deustachio
10-31-2007, 03:22 PM
I'm not putting it down, I hope they sell a billion of them, but you just have to read between the sales pitch lines. I guess the market has changed since Play/Trinity box was out, I just don't want to see NewTek ignore the editing advancements.

ScorpioProd
11-01-2007, 12:29 AM
Well, it's important to remember that the TriCaster IS a "normal" computer with a VT card and a SX-3 in it. It's not a full box of dedicated hardware like the Play Trinity. The only difference being it's a closed system to keep it proprietary and keep the variables that could cause problems minimized.

For what the TriCaster is, I think Newtek have found their latest niche, without question.

As for editors, I think it's important to realize that NLEs have very much become commoditized in the last few years. The big bucks aren't gonna be made selling NLEs. This is also why common features have to be the same in different NLEs, otherwise they won't sell. Everyone has similiar expectations in a NLE nowadays.

While the TriCaster is a one of a kind thing, not a commodity, therefore, it can sell for a major premium, and a great profit for Newtek, and hopefully for their dealers as well.

As for "software-only" upgrades, it's important to remember there could never be such a thing if you're looking for the software to jump from SD to HD, and your computer was built with SD in mind years ago. In many ways, the concept of "software-only" is really a red herring.

Verlon
11-01-2007, 12:56 AM
Even more important is to remember who actually runs Newtek: they do-- at least until I complete the work on my giant battle robot. Once I have finished that and begin conquering the surrounding area, I will be revisiting these feature requests.

However, priority will be given to those requesters that have their own giant battle robots (if you want to be taken seriously in this world, you really need your own giant battle robot).

Rich Deustachio
11-01-2007, 06:05 PM
Yes they do run NewTek and I run my company, a company that will no longer pay for any preorder of any NewTek product ever again. I doubt any other company that preordered VT5 will do the same for VT6 so until then I hope the Tricaster sales continue to mount.

Verlon
11-01-2007, 10:18 PM
Someone OBVIOUSLY doesn't have plans for a giant battle robot.

You, of course, can choose for your company not to pre-order VT6. I am really not up on what all Newtek does to convince people to upgrade to newer VT software. However, they have historically been quite generous to Lightwave users in this matter. Perhaps they will make some concession that will please you, or perhaps VT6 will be so amazing you can't pass on it.

SBowie
11-02-2007, 07:52 AM
Perhaps they will make some concession that will please you, or perhaps VT6 will be so amazing you can't pass on it.A number of concessions have already been made to those who had a long wait. Even so, after the experience with a (doubtless unintentional yet undeniably) overlong wait for [5], it is inconceivable to me that NewTek will let themselves be caught in that position again.

ScorpioProd
11-02-2007, 12:46 PM
Ah, but Steve... Isn't this EXACTLY the same situation that Newtek was in with VT[2]??? Or did they not accept advance orders for that one?

Either way, like VT[5], it was more than a year late from when it was stated that it would ship...

I mean, no one can predict with certainty when software will get done, but Newtek has a reputation for this type of tardiness in the past...

But unless all the people ordering VT[5] weren't around for VT[2], it really seems like people aren't learning from history and therefore repeating its mistakes.

SBowie
11-02-2007, 01:15 PM
I don't remember [2] being nearly as late as [5], or a similar level of angst - but I'm old, I forget stuff.

robewil
11-02-2007, 02:07 PM
I think many of you are forgetting that early upgraders to VT[5] got a free extra copy of Speed Edit earlier this year. It's not like we pre-ordered and have waited all this time for nothing.

If it weren't for the SpeedEdit, I would never had pre-ordered.

Verlon
11-02-2007, 05:59 PM
Tat's what I am talking about Rob....

billmi
11-05-2007, 10:09 AM
I doubt any other company that preordered VT5 will do the same for VT6

Assuming I plan to go to VT[6] (which I assume at this point I will) how the VT[5] upgrade was handled will absolutely steer me towards pre-ordering VT[6.]

True, I wasn't earning interest on my money while waiting, but VT[5] has a lot more features than what had been announced when I pre-ordered, and I get a couple of extra standalone SpeedEdits as a bonus, and paid only 1/3 as much as if I had waited for shipping product to order.

Come to think of it, I saved a few hundred bucks by pre-ordering the VTNT back in the day as well...


So, I could pay a lower price, get some extras, and wait and wait and wait. Or I could wait and wait and wait and pay a higher price.

First option sounds a bit better to me, since I have to wait either way.

CreatvGnius
03-11-2008, 07:03 PM
Just keep in mind that one of the biggest reason the Trinity went under was because the editor sucked.
:bump:
Hmmm. I would've imagined the biggest reason Play, Inc.'s Trinity went under, was for other, more service-related reasons.

Weren't there major problems with product reliability and service and support? I would've never imagined that its editor was so sucky, so as to bring the company down. What did I miss? In what ways was the Trinity editor a miss?

Ted -- You've still got that shiny Globecaster mini-fridge look-alike in your setup. Care ta' comment?:hey:
-PeterG

CreatvGnius
03-11-2008, 07:08 PM
Assuming I plan to go to VT[6] (which I assume at this point I will) how the VT[5] upgrade was handled will absolutely steer me towards pre-ordering VT[6.]

True, I wasn't earning interest on my money while waiting, but VT[5] has a lot more features than what had been announced when I pre-ordered, and I get a couple of extra standalone SpeedEdits as a bonus, and paid only 1/3 as much as if I had waited for shipping product to order.

Come to think of it, I saved a few hundred bucks by pre-ordering the VTNT back in the day as well...


So, I could pay a lower price, get some extras, and wait and wait and wait. Or I could wait and wait and wait and pay a higher price.

First option sounds a bit better to me, since I have to wait either way.I couldn't agree more, with that sentiment, Billmi. :beerchug: We're lookin' forward to the day NewTek'll be accepting pre-orders for VT[6]!
PeterG