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View Full Version : 25 fps VS 30 fps - issues



Pavlov
05-22-2007, 04:38 AM
Hi,
often i setup scenes at 30 fps for error, if i want to switch to 25 i have to fix manually each frame since they become fractional.
is there a way to avoid this and have frames stay in place ?

paolo

voriax
05-22-2007, 06:26 PM
I've wondered about this too. I just tried editing the scenefile and changing the frame rate there, but it acts the same as if you changed it in layout.
I'm almost certain that some much older versions just allowed you to change the frame rate without changing the actual frame number of the keyframes.

Of course, if you're rendering out to still frames then the frame rate won't affect you. Unless you're using the time code instead of frame numbers for the frame slider.

In the mean time, you can just change it and then go to the scene editor and scale all the key times by a factor of 1.2.

Pavlov
05-23-2007, 01:15 AM
well Fprime on LAN (WSN) and Kray seem to dislike 30fps, and they render obj in bad positions. Didnt try timecode VS frame number, i'll do asap.

Paolo

Red_Oddity
05-23-2007, 05:52 AM
The problem is because time in LW is not based on frames but seconds.
1 second is always stored as the value 1, so logically, when you create a keyframe on anything other than a whole second, the frame based time values become fracional when you change to another fps.

xav
05-23-2007, 05:58 AM
I've had the same problem, and motion mixer seems to act in a funky way when switching from 30fr to 25fr, especially with weight curve. It didn't save my retiming. I've had to fix this manualy at each session.

Not allowing fractional frames didn't fix thing.

Pavlov
05-23-2007, 06:08 AM
so it's definitely something to fix... imho jumping from 30 to 25 fps should have an option to change absolutely nothing in the scene BUT the framerate.

Paolo

Red_Oddity
05-23-2007, 08:17 AM
You could convert your scene to 25 fps and then do a numerical scale on all keyframes with a time scale factor of 1 / 30 * 25, either in the Graph Editor or the Scene Editor.

This also works the otherway round ( 1 / 25 * 30)

Limbus
05-23-2007, 08:48 AM
Hi,
often i setup scenes at 30 fps for error, if i want to switch to 25 i have to fix manually each frame since they become fractional.
is there a way to avoid this and have frames stay in place ?


I would just scale my animation in the graph editor and use the option "Snap Keys To Frame".

Cheers, Florian

voriax
05-23-2007, 08:57 AM
Hang on, are you saying fprime's WSN doesn't play well with 30fps?
I've been having nightmare problems with WSN not rendering an anim properly, with objects being in the wrong place in various frames, snapping back and forth. Cost me a whole day trying to work it out and ending up re-rendering in tricky ways to avoid the problem.

The anim was made in 30fps.
I'll check it out tomorrow to see if this was the cause of the problem. I'll be so happy and yet so irked if it was the cause.

Pavlov
05-23-2007, 09:51 AM
voriax - yes just try to change, it should fix - i mean sometime things change, but WSN is definitely ODD. i wonder what's doing worley so important to mess up the legendary fame of non-buggy developer.
Limbus - probably not possible, after some frames they tend to be nearer to the frame BEFORE the one you want so the entire timeline would mess up.


Paolo

voriax
05-23-2007, 07:37 PM
Naw, turns out it wasn't the frame rate.
I checked the main LW CFG settings, the scene file's frame rate, double-checked the WSN configs and frame rates, but still it's playing silly-buggers.
Worley did say that WSN isn't a fully supported app yet, which is fair enough. I've noticed if you save the scene with any frame other than frame 0 on the slider, you instantly have a problem. It renders frame 0, but has the object positions from whatever frame you saved it on, etc.
I think other people have had problems doing a single-machine render using fp3 and not having motions come out right.
Hope fprime has another fix out soon....
Still can't work out what the problem with the scene is. It renders fine on a single machine, but as soon as it goes to the farm, it just bollocks up completely.

Sorry, hijacking thread :D

voriax
05-23-2007, 07:41 PM
By the way, as I mentioned at the top, if you need to go from 30fps to 25fps, change the setting in the options, then use the OLD scene editor and scale time for all items by 1.2. Works a treat and gives no fractional frames.
Going from 25fps to 30fps is a different matter.

Pavlov
05-24-2007, 02:20 AM
ok i'll try. I wait too for a Fprime update, it's way messy now.

Paolo

Red_Oddity
05-24-2007, 01:31 PM
By the way, as I mentioned at the top, if you need to go from 30fps to 25fps, change the setting in the options, then use the OLD scene editor and scale time for all items by 1.2. Works a treat and gives no fractional frames.
Going from 25fps to 30fps is a different matter.
That would be 1 / 30 * 25 = 0.8333333333333333333333 <catches breath> 333333333333.

ninok5
05-25-2007, 09:42 AM
there is a plugin called keyframer in the utilities -> additional dropdown menu. You can use it to fix fractional keyframes. It will round it to the nearest whole frame I believe. Its very useful for a multitude of other things too. :) Hope that helps, good luck.

xav
05-25-2007, 10:24 AM
Thanks ninok! I was looking for it but didn't remembered the name.
Thoug it was motify...wich doesn't fix fractional keyframes.:thumbsup:

Pavlov
05-25-2007, 11:03 AM
hi ninok, thanks i know but it doesnt work, snapping to nearer messes up the scene if there are more than 3 frames, sicne after this keys start to be nearer to the frame BEFORE, and so on. Kinda a "moire" effect" into Graph editor ;)

Paolo

ninok5
05-25-2007, 02:19 PM
what if you rendered it out at 30fps with frpime, and then set it to 25 in a video editing program at the end? You'll have to make sure you tell it to keep the overall length of the movie the same though.

Pavlov
05-25-2007, 02:45 PM
please read the thread, Fprime ha probably an issue with this, and for sure Kray has one too. Scene must be at 25 fps, thus the problem

bye
Paolo

ninok5
05-25-2007, 03:11 PM
I did, i just forgot in my hasty attempt to come up with a solution, ha. So the method Red_oddity posted did not work? Do they remain fractional still? I would think that once you convert to 25fps, then scale they would be much cloaser to their original frame and you could then snap them to the nearest one? I don't know, perhaps a sticky note at the top of the monitor that says "25" or an auto run reminder, haha. Good luck. I've had the same issue many times, thankfully mine is either 30 or 60fps so no half frames.

Red_Oddity
05-26-2007, 11:32 AM
Well, offcourse my method doesn't quantize the data, you could do that after you've done the 1.2 or .83333 numeric scale trick.
Mind you, when you open up a .lws file in a text editor you'll notice that only whole seconds are 'sort of integer' values, the rest are always fractional / float.
It's kinda weird that something as relative as fps makes a render engine go bonkers.

fertilizer
06-01-2007, 09:27 AM
Isn't the easiest way to temporally quantize keyframes just to select all the keyframes in the dopesheet, right click and select quantize?

Or am I just missing something?