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Art_the_Artist
05-16-2007, 09:24 AM
Hello,


Excuse me for my not so good english. I am a german user :)

I really can't believe that Lightwave3D 9.2 still got this funny "Symmetry" that inverts the movement of mouse. Can someone tell me why?

Ok, i can see where the 'right' side of the model is, but thats all. It really doesn't help me when i pickup points and move them around. I mean that this is the worst example of an user interface that i have ever seen. And the mirrored side of the model doesn't even show me when i'm on the 'wrong' side of the model.

Is there a possibility to change this setting into something more intuitive?

Greetings
Art

Sensei
05-16-2007, 09:29 AM
Is there a possibility to change this setting into something more intuitive?


Check out Virtual Mirror from TrueArt's Modeling Pack instead http://modelingpack.trueart.eu..
Here is nice Proton video showing it in action ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/LightWave/Tutorials/Vidz/Vmirror.mov
Video is from v1.0, now it's newer and better..

iconoclasty
05-17-2007, 02:58 PM
symmetry mode can be a little finicky but for the most part I've found it fairly useful (although I know Virtual Mirror is loads better). I'm not entirely sure but it kind of sounds like you're trying to use it to do something it wasn't intended for.

Art_the_Artist
05-17-2007, 03:34 PM
Thank you, Sensei. Do Virtual Mirror support 9.2? It looks like the latest update was at Feb 2006 and for Lightwave 8.5.

iconoclasty, what do you mean? When modelling i want to see the whole model, so i work with symmetry turned on. That's all. If this is not, what for Symmetry was intended, why should the Symmetry tool exist?

Greetings
Art

Surrealist.
05-17-2007, 03:46 PM
Thank you, Sensei. Do Virtual Mirror support 9.2? It looks like the latest update was at Feb 2006 and for Lightwave 8.5.

iconoclasty, what do you mean? When modelling i want to see the whole model, so i work with symmetry turned on. That's all. If this is not, what for Symmetry was intended, why should the Symmetry tool exist?

Greetings
Art

You only work on one side of the model at a time with symmetry on. If you work on the wrong side of the model the mouse movement is opposite and of course near impossible to do.

If for instance you are in back view, pull on the right side of the model, in front view the left as so on. In perspective you can get it confused, but if you do simply undo that last operation and begin working on the other side.

When working in symmetry it is best to have an edge down the middle of the model so you can delete one side and mirror the model again when you loose symmetry which does happen - especially if you start pulling on the wrong side or you move the center points. Make sure and put the points at zero with the (v hot key) Set Value tool on the x.

Use the mirror tools by Terry Ford (http://www.aooe58.dsl.pipex.com/htm/frameplugins.shtml) to make this process easier. It comes with delete left and delete right. Very handy but the points have to be dead center.

Sensei
05-17-2007, 03:55 PM
Sure it works with LW92. But in OpenGL Streaming mode. Buffered VBO mode is still really buggy in LW92. Basically Virtual Mirror wireframe is not displayed.

parm
05-18-2007, 02:18 AM
A couple of months ago I submitted a feature request, regarding this same issue.

I agree with you. The modelling experience would be enhanced. If, while tumbling and viewing your object from different angles. It didn't matter which side of the object you are pulling points about on.

Anyway I was sent this reply:


One tricky aspect of this feature is that it automatically breaks symmetry to do that. Symmetry is not a pre-assigned state. It must be constantly preserved to function as it does in Lightwave. To perform such an operation would instantly break symmetry in the object, allowing it to no longer continue in a mirrored fashion.
This is the kind of thing for which the virtual symmetry approach (ex: Max, Silo, Wings, XSI, Maya) and not the traditional symmetry approach found in Lightwave and now Modo would probably be more appropriate.

--
LightWave Feature Request
[email protected]


Clearly there are some serious technical obstacles against making it work. But as a non-programmer. It's to understand why. It's not just a simple matter of filtering the operations performed on the negative half of the model, when symmetry is on.

As far as i can tell, virtual mirror still only allows you to work on one side of the model. It only really addresses the problem of breaking symmetry and prevents you from accidentally moving points, on the 'wrong' side of the model.

parm
05-18-2007, 02:24 AM
And the mirrored side of the model doesn't even show me when i'm on the 'wrong' side of the model.

Is there a possibility to change this setting into something more intuitive?

Greetings
Art

If you work in wireframe mode. You can select one half of your model, and make it's wireframe colour different:

Detail > Polygons > Sketch Color

Sensei
05-18-2007, 05:29 AM
Clearly there are some serious technical obstacles against making it work.

Original free Virtual Mirror v1.0 was written in one day..



But as a non-programmer. It's to understand why. It's not just a simple matter of filtering the operations performed on the negative half of the model, when symmetry is on.

One call-back added to custom polygon handler would allow Virtual Mirror to select right elements when virtual are clicked.. This is the same call-back which would be useful for CC points - click on patch point, and cage point is modified.. I am asking for it NewTek since Nov' 2005..



As far as i can tell, virtual mirror still only allows you to work on one side of the model. It only really addresses the problem of breaking symmetry and prevents you from accidentally moving points, on the 'wrong' side of the model.

Correct.

Surrealist.
05-18-2007, 12:23 PM
Also, if I remember the video, in virtual mirror, half of the model is in poly mode the other in subpatch. An interesting feature but it would be nice to toggle that on and off.

Art_the_Artist
05-18-2007, 12:32 PM
Sure, i can use a plugin. Virtual Mirror looks great and have many nice features. But i think about plugin as an extension, not as a bug fix. And the existing 'Symmetry' appears to me as a non-user friendly part of the program. It can't even handle some native tools in Lightwave. It should be fixed.

Who cares about a 'traditional symmetry approach' if it does not help the user while modeling? And why don't let the user choose between both approaches?

@parm: Thanks for the tip :)

Greetings
Art

kevinone
05-18-2007, 06:43 PM
I would take the virtual mirror any day over what we have now! It sucks bad!, and it gets old trying to plug your way out of a bad feature!!!!!

Surrealist.
05-18-2007, 08:24 PM
Symmetry is has been and always has been completely user friendly and made perfect sense to me. I have used it for quite a while now on countless models. Some tools work in symmetry and some don't. Not an issue to me.

Art_the_Artist
05-20-2007, 02:20 PM
Symmetry is has been and always has been completely user friendly and made perfect sense to me. I have used it for quite a while now on countless models. Some tools work in symmetry and some don't. Not an issue to me.

Which part of the 'symmetry' do you mean with 'completely user friedly'?

I think it is absolutely NOT user friendly.



The primary notion of usability is that an object designed with the users' psychology and physiology in mind is, for example:

* More efficient to use—it takes less time to accomplish a particular task
* Easier to learn—operation can be learned by observing the object
* More satisfying to use

The actual symmetry doesn't show you the mirrored part. That makes it hard to choose the 'right' side.

If you drag a point without selecting one, there is no visual mark about the point on the opposite side.

When symmetry is on, only a little button is highlighted.

If you do some operation on one side that symmetry can not handle, like welding or bandsaw pro, nothing tells you, that something goes wrong.


Result: 'Symmetry' in lightwave would never pass an usability test.

Greetings
Art

Surrealist.
05-20-2007, 05:42 PM
if you are not happy with the symmetry mode as it is, then put it in a feature request. Feed back from everyone is important so please give your feedback as it is a valid.

In the mean time for you or anyone who may be interested, you can make it more intuitive by learning how it works.

One thing that helps is to understand the interface. Having a good understanding of the interface is important to things feeling intuitive.

If you are looking down the back view you are looking down the +Z axis ahead of you and the - Z axis is facing you or directed "behind you"

+X is on the right and -X is on the left. +Y above and -Y below.

The side of the model that is the mirror side (the side that will mimic your edit) is always the -X to the left in back view. It is the same side all the time. It never changes. The only thing that changes is the view. In the front view this would fall on the right because you are now looking down the -Z axis. So always pull on the +X side of the model.

In perspective if you have the grid turned on you can look and see which way your object is facing.

Without the grid I always just either a) know which way I created the object or if I have forgotten, it is late, I am disoriented, whatever, all I do it pull on it on the X axis and depending on which way it goes I know which side I am on. If it goes the wrong way I hit undo and pull on the other side.

Then there are the Terry Ford tools mentioned above.

As for LW tools it is a matter of trial and error experience, doing tutorials or reading the manual that tell you which ones work.

But the hard fact is all tools do not work in symmetry so get Terry Fords tools make sure your center points are dead center and frequently delete and mirror when needed.

A partial list of tools that do not work:

Bandsaw Pro
Add Edges
Kife

A partial list that do:
Cut
Divide
Multishift
Bevel

If you find you've lost symetry and need to delete and mirror the TF Tools mentioned are a god send.

Happy modeling. :)

Art_the_Artist
05-23-2007, 12:55 PM
Well, I asked primary why this symmetry still exist, because for me it is really hard to get used to that.

I'm new to Lightwave so it is not easy to accept thinks like they are. Maybe just need more time :)

Thank you for the tutorial, Surrealist. It is really helpful. Since i know, that the mirrored side is always on the -X axis, i try to avoid moving points on that side :angel:

I tried the Terry Ford tools, they're cool ^^

Greetings
Art

lardbros
05-23-2007, 01:08 PM
Original free Virtual Mirror v1.0 was written in one day..



It's this that really gets my goat!! If someone like Sensei is clearly as talented and skillful as he is, and able to code these brilliant plugins, why the heck can't someone at Newtek do stuff like this??

The impression (sad but true) i get from Newtek dev team is that noone has the ability to do such things. I realise this is untrue, but it sure does feel like it when most of the recent modeller plugin additions have been poor and extremely basic. MultiShift is the only plugin of recent times that has some nice functionality and goes some of the way towards a consolidated tool working environment!

Surrealist.
05-23-2007, 01:13 PM
Well, I asked primary why this symmetry still exist, because for me it is really hard to get used to that.

I'm new to Lightwave so it is not easy to accept thinks like they are. Maybe just need more time :)

Thank you for the tutorial, Surrealist. It is really helpful. Since i know, that the mirrored side is always on the -X axis, i try to avoid moving points on that side :angel:

I tried the Terry Ford tools, they're cool ^^

Greetings
Art

Glad it could help. :)

And Larbros, I feel your pain.

What have you been doing? Any more animation?

lardbros
05-23-2007, 02:59 PM
What have you been doing? Any more animation?

Me?.... Was that question for me?


My day job consists of using MAX and doing 3d stuff all day long, by the time i get home i rarely get to touch Lightwave, which is annoying as it's still my tool of choice. I haven't done any animation outside of work for a LOOONG time, well, since i did the stuff on my website anyway. :( Gets me down not being able to use LW at work despite me moaning about it quite alot!

Surrealist.
05-24-2007, 02:13 AM
Yes you. :)

I remember that great short you did a while ago in LW. Well, good to see you are working in 3D.

lardbros
05-24-2007, 03:24 AM
Yes you. :)

I remember that great short you did a while ago in LW. Well, good to see you are working in 3D.

Wow, thanks... i was never really happy with it, as is always the case with your own work! Glad people have seen it and enjoyed it though... makes me want to do another one so much! I always have the dream of doing another short film, but need a seriously neat idea to keep me entertained during all the work!!

Well, thanks for the positivity!!! :o