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View Full Version : Lie, damned lies and Apple benchmarks?



Aegis
06-24-2003, 07:54 AM
Well, I was getting pretty excited about the new G5s until I came across this (http://www.amdzone.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1296&page=2)...

Looking forward to some user benchmarks to settle this once and for all - Is the G5 the new holy grail of computing performance? Or are we just being taken for a ride again?

As a PC LightWaver I'm pretty happy with the hardware I've got but as an artist a truly rocking OSX Mac is mighty appealing.

Lightwolf
06-24-2003, 08:25 AM
Hi Aegis,
thanks for the link. While there is nothing new, it pretty much sums up all the fuss about the last couple of hours after the launch...

Aegis
06-24-2003, 08:41 AM
Yeah, I just caught up with the comments on the Mac LW channel - until the G5s are actually available there's gonna be another big salvo of bitter arguments, ill-informed statements, fanaticism and plain old bs between Mac and PC camps and at the end of the day all this is down to marketing spin - when I part with $3000 I want it to go to a reputable company providing honest goods, not a snake-oil salesman... :o

mattclary
06-24-2003, 08:45 AM
Slap a shiny Apple logo on a chunk of cheese and the Mac fans are gonna let Steve keep his 1.9% market share. The price/performance payoff just ain't there. Just built a P4 3.0c for ~$1300.

Lightwolf
06-24-2003, 08:45 AM
:p Yep, I see what you're getting at. These G5s sure are neat for 3000$ though, and at least aren't _that_ far behind PCs that cost the same. But I expected more (I hope none of us react like that when L[8] gets released ;) ).
Cheers,
Mike

mattclary
06-24-2003, 08:50 AM
I'm happy for the apple guys. They buy Apple for their own reasons and I'm happy they can finally get some kick-*** hardware, just isn't for me. ;)

Aegis
06-24-2003, 09:04 AM
Nah, I gave up hardware loyalty when my Amiga 4000 finally died on me - I keep the dream alive using LightWave and the Video Toaster [2] - software has become far more important to my work than the platform I'm working on - I'm a hardware whore :D Whatever gives me the most back for buck is where you'll find me...

As for LW [8] well, I'm looking forward to interface enhancements - LW has become "My plugin hell" and there's a distinct inconsistency in methodology with some plugins being a breeze to use and others seemingly needing a degree course just to understand.

The prospect of better integration with third party apps is intriguing and I'll bet you this DFX+ deal is no coincidence and may well offer some great possibilities.

I suspect some nice technologies such as the normal mapping plugin recently released on Flay will no doubt be added to enhance LW's rep as a complete "out-of-the-box" 3D solution as well.

Time will tell but I have high hopes :)

Lightwolf
06-24-2003, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by Aegis
Nah, I gave up hardware loyalty when my Amiga 4000 finally died on me...
Well, my Amiga 4000/60 still runs fine and dandy, but I gave up hrdware loyality when the new P166 I had bought back then ran LW at four times the speed or so.
Call me a hardware whore too if you whish :)
Cheers,
Mike

dwburman
06-24-2003, 10:49 PM
yeah, my hardware loyalty died when I had to get a computer that ran Quark XPress so I could learn it and get a job. The Amiga didn't do that. There are still some things I miss from time to time, but waiting a few seconds to see a .GIF sure isn't one of them (Ami1200 '030 @ 33Mhz)

As for the Apple stuff, I'm looking forward to playing with one. We're probably going to order one where I work. I like OSX. I'll defend either MAC or PC depending on who I'm with, but I get tired of Apple's arrogance so I'll vent a little.

- They say they broke the 4GB barrier that 32bit CPUs have. Okay, I'm not an engineer so I'm sure where the catch is, but the XEON mainboard I ordered last week can sport up to 12GB of RAM... Of course, I can't afford 2GB DIMMs.

-they have such "cutting edge" technology as...
---Two whole drive bays.
---A "superdrive" that I could buy at Circuit City.
---Firewire (okay, the Firewire 800 is an advance)
---3 whole PCI-X slots so you can plug in your Professional sound card, your SDI serial card, your Fibre Channel card and you... ooops, ran out of slots. (yeah, 3 slots is probably sufficient but seems anemic to me)
---optical audio in and out (okay, I only have optical out on my sound card. I still don't use it.

And they are inconsistent with their comparisons.

They show benchmarks for the Pentium 4 and XEON systems, but make general comments about "average PCs". Well, average PC's don't start at $1,999. They make statements about being the best personal computer with X feature. I guess the G5s aren't workstations afterall. just really expensive and powerful personal computers... or maybe the XEON system I'm building isn't a personal computer. If I wanted to buy an Opturon system and use it for personal use, would it be the first 64-bit personal computer... especially considering I could have it in my hands by the end of the month?

I do wonder if I made the right choice, buying a XEON system at the dawn of 64-bit desktop computing. I wonder if I made the right choice preordering LW8... but that was mostly for DFX+. Oh well, I probably don't use the stuff I got enough as it is.

Sorry this post is so long, I've just been annoyed by marketing the last couple of days. I'm glad Apple finally has a flagship product that won't get spanked by a single processor PC ;)

CTRL+X
06-25-2003, 12:34 AM
brand loyalty?,,,

hell I jumped off the upgrade train along time ago also...

Was spending to much time learning newer and newer technology instead of working on my creative abillity.

same machine same software,, and it all still works!!!!!... I just demand my clients to hand me their media in a format I can handle,, either they do it or I get it somewhere else.


saved alot of money over the years.

wizlon
06-25-2003, 02:31 AM
http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/03/06/24/2154256.shtml?tid=126&tid=181

Beamtracer
06-25-2003, 05:00 AM
What is the incentive of those who want to put down the new Apple machine?

All benchmarks are useless. Nobody's got their hands on one of these machines yet everyone's already going on about how it's not so good.

As dwburman posted above, this is the dawn of the new era of 64-bit computing, and Apple's new machines will quickly bring 64-bit computing to the masses.

Windows users will have their day some time in the future when M$ finally brings out an OS for AMDs processors. Meanwhile AMD must sit on their hands and wait for this.

So, those who are criticizing the new Macs before they've even seen one are just showing their bias. Why? That's something you should explain.

mattclary
06-25-2003, 05:51 AM
"The masses" won't be buying this machine, no matter how good it is. And despite the hulabaloo over the testing, I think it WILL be a good machine for those who are loyal to Apple and probably even a few PC people who are just curious. If I had an extra $3000 laying around I'd probably get one.

Lightwolf
06-25-2003, 06:16 AM
Originally posted by mattclary
If I had an extra $3000 laying around I'd probably get one.
I'd go to Siggraph :D Another extra $3000 is a different matter though... (Actually more like 3250,- EUR).
Cheers,
Mike

mattclary
06-25-2003, 07:04 AM
When I say "extra", I mean I found it in the crevice of the seat of my second Lamborghini Countache when I was vacuuming it out after doing a little off-road racing with it. ;)

Lightwolf
06-25-2003, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by mattclary
When I say "extra", I mean I found it in the crevice of the seat of my second Lamborghini Countache when I was vacuuming it out after doing a little off-road racing with it. ;)
Well, that is what I meant as well, execpt that I'd let somebody else vacuum my car of course... ;)

dwburman
06-25-2003, 07:55 AM
My incentive for puting down Apple is simply my annoyance with their marketing claims.

They aren't the first out with a 64-bit desktop/tower. They aren't the first to have more than 4GB of RAM or PCI-X or AGP 8X. The 1Ghz Front Side Bus is impressive but really, we won't be able to tell performance until we people can get our hands on a system.

Oh, and I don't like the case design. It looks like a 70's 80's SciFi wall panel. I think the Quicksilver case looked better, and I like the design of the Powerbook (a.k.a. Titanium... one of which I'm using to type this) and the XServe/XRaid. Okay, that's not marketing related... or bashing really. Just an opinion.

The things I don't like about Apple is the cost of everything and the limited choices compared to the PC world. Like, to add a 52X will cost twice as much as a PC because you have to go with an external drive.

OTOH, I like OSX. I'm glad they got rid of the ''classic" OS. That OS frustrated me.

There's a good chance that Apple having a 64-bit system will help AMD's 64-bit market acceptance.

uberslayer™
06-25-2003, 05:54 PM
say's it all really.

DaveW
06-25-2003, 07:22 PM
uberslayer, I'd love to know why you think releasing competitive computers with a competitive OS at competitive prices (on the high-end systems at least) means Apple is doomed.

I think it's more likely that Mac users who've helf of on upgrading will do so once these systems ship, and former Mac users will start switching back to the Mac. Some PC users may actually switch too. I think it's a pretty safe bet that more places that use high-end Unix workstations will start switching to Macs (and to be fair, Opterons too) rather than pay 2-3x as much for slower workstations. I think this is only going to be good for Apple.

-FP-
06-25-2003, 07:51 PM
The coolest thing about this is the INCREDIBLE SPEED at which the new Apple benchmarks were refuted, then the refutals refuted, all in a few hours. I assume the re-refutals will appear almost immediately.

I don't care about Mac vs. PC, but it's fun to read people argue about it.

Brian Peterson
06-25-2003, 09:52 PM
uberslayer, I'd love to know why you think releasing competitive computers with a competitive OS at competitive prices (on the high-end systems at least) means Apple is doomed.

I'm not uberslayer, but I'll answer since I tend to agree with it. It's called 1.9% market share and shrinking! And how is it competitive to anything? So fare we have no idea about it's true ability except for the spin we're getting from Apple. Spin from what I'm reading is quickly falling apart.

It's really too bad, i'd support Apple, even with the memory problems OS X has. But 1 I don't like the spin, 2 I don't like being dictated to by Steve Jobs as to what I'll buy, how my case will look and if I can expand internally or externally and 3 I'm not paying a ransom for something that dose not match up to something that is cheaper and faster.

When it comes to 64 bit processing... Give me a break there isn't an OS or a program in the consumer market that can take advantage of it. Neither has it been announced as to when we'll be seeing one.

-FP-
06-25-2003, 10:10 PM
I thought Mac had a 10% market share overall, and a higher penetration in pro graphics and audio? I dunno.

I wish Mac was way more successful. I'd still use PCs, because I know 'em and Macs cost way too much. But, if Mac was bigger, Microsoft might feel compelled to offer tighter code and better value....

Brian Peterson
06-25-2003, 11:07 PM
Apple, may have 10% of the market if compared to total units old and new installed at the present time, but hey I know a person using a IIe, does that really count as a viable, money generating unit that people are buy new software for? NO!

In total numbers of sales per quarter, which is what matters because it's the revenue generated for Apple itself, they have fallen to a 1.9% share of all computer sold to consumers...

However I don't see competition forcing Microshaft to write better code. They didn't when the Mac was a true threat and they aren't now that Linux is nipping at their heals. Their way is to attack, degrade and buy out if nothing else. I bet it would take Microshaft loosing half their market before they'd actually try to really improve their offerings to gain market share back.

petermark
06-26-2003, 12:07 AM
I find it very interesting that so many Wintel users want the Mac line of products to get better and more powerful. I am fully in that group too. I've always liked the cases and interface designs that Mac comes up with, though that's not enough to convince me to switch. The main reason for so many of us wanting Macs to be successful is because we'd like to see a computer power that can challenge Windows and Intel. Those two companies, especially Windows, are just too big and too successful for their own good. I couldn't be happier if Windows suffered a crash because then it might inspire them to really work hard on their products and drop their prices. Or it might allow an alternative (like Mac or Linux) to get powerful enough to really be an alternative.

I'm dedicated to no platform - I want bang for my buck. It seems the same is true of most Wintel users.

fortress
06-26-2003, 02:01 AM
very cool i am glad mac has finnaly started really turning up the heat.

the one thing i thought was rather intersting is that almost eveything in the new g5 came from the pc world

Lightwolf
06-26-2003, 02:12 AM
Originally posted by petermark
I'm dedicated to no platform - I want bang for my buck. It seems the same is true of most Wintel users.
Yep, I'll sign that too.

Originally posted by fortress
the one thing i thought was rather intersting is that almost eveything in the new g5 came from the pc world
Including parts of the chipset, which is from AMD and identical to parts used in the Opteron chipsets (even though the Opteron still has the better memory interface design imho).
The only Apple innovations in that machine is the CPU and FW800, allthough I do like the cooling strategy in the case.
Cheers,
Mike

mattclary
06-26-2003, 06:15 AM
I don't know, IBM makes the cpu. Is IBM just the fab, or did they also design it for Apple?

Lightwolf
06-26-2003, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by mattclary
I don't know, IBM makes the cpu. Is IBM just the fab, or did they also design it for Apple?
I assume they designed it together, rip out the superflous Power4 bits (like the second processor core) and glue on Altivec :)
Cheers,
Mike

hrgiger
06-26-2003, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer


So, those who are criticizing the new Macs before they've even seen one are just showing their bias. Why? That's something you should explain.

Hmmm, I would also think that defending a machine before you've seen one would also qualify as a bias.

DaveW
06-26-2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Brian Peterson
I'm not uberslayer, but I'll answer since I tend to agree with it. It's called 1.9% market share and shrinking! And how is it competitive to anything? So fare we have no idea about it's true ability except for the spin we're getting from Apple. Spin from what I'm reading is quickly falling apart.

The marketshare has been slipping because Apple hasn't had compelling hardware for a long time. Few people are willing to pay the outrageous prices Apple has been charging for underpowered hardware. I think Apple is going to be getting a lot of sales with the G5's. How is it competetive? Well it's a hell of a lot faster than the G4's, and even though they ran biased benchmarks (as usual) we know from tests done by IBM as well as comments from 3rd parties (Ed Catmull, someone else from Adobe) that the new machines are roughly equivalent to current Athlons and P4/Xeons. Nobody will really know for sure just how well they perform until they ship, but the performance disparity is not anywhere near what it's been for the past couple years.


When it comes to 64 bit processing... Give me a break there isn't an OS or a program in the consumer market that can take advantage of it. Neither has it been announced as to when we'll be seeing one.

Well Panther is a 64bit consumer OS and it's been announced that we'll see it by the end of the year. And isn't a x86-64 version of WindowsXP supposed to ship about the same time as the Athlon64? It will likely be a little longer before we start seeing apps that take advantage of it of course.

Brian Peterson
06-26-2003, 07:58 PM
Few people are willing to pay the outrageous prices Apple has been charging for underpowered hardware.

Oh I will definently agree with the prices, they have been truly outrageous for years now, with no relief in sight. Frankly the G5s are still overpriced, if they are equivilant to today's Xeons and Athalons. I recently assembled a dual Xeon that was half the price of it's supposedly "equal" G5!


I think Apple is going to be getting a lot of sales with the G5's.

Well in my opinion you have better cross your fingers and pray, because it today's recessionary markets I don't see it happening. Apple has given up too much market share. The new product is not "ultral" cool as previous lifesavers of theirs. The original iMac was new, unique, funky so to speak. The G3 was the first computer to really take it's case design into a new realm. The G5, the usual comment I hear is ugly. Finally, they do not have a competively priced product and this is what is going to hurt them, the most.

I have several Mac Head friends who have eagerly awaited a breakthru from Apple in speed. Without exception I taked to the last one today and instead of running out and reserving their new G5 today as they always said they would, they are all taking a "we'll see" attitude. One of them has decided to go the Xeon route after seeing the "specs".

The ultimate question is: Is it too little too late...


Well Panther is a 64bit consumer OS and it's been announced that we'll see it by the end of the year.

Hmm, I may have missed it, but I'm not seeing that on the Panther preview page. I've scoured that section of the Apple website, and for being true 64 bit processing Apple sure isn't boasting that fact, isn't even mentioning it from what I can see. So please post a link to where it says that.

dwburman
06-26-2003, 10:25 PM
You know, a bunch of messages ago I went on a little rant and mentioned how I thought Apple only including 3 PCI slots was weak. Well, I sort of take that back.

Why? well, I got my SuperMicro MBD X5DA8 mainboard today. It has two PCI slots and 3 PCI-X slots. I didn't reallize it until I looked at the slots but PCI-X isn't backwards compatible with PCI cards. The dividers on the slot are in different locations. That means that the two higher end "personal computers" that Apple makes are completely incompatible with any cards you already have. So if you're like my office and use Media100 hardware and SCSI HD controllers (or my room mate who just bought an SDI capture card) you have to buy the lower end model. I'm thinking that at least some PCI cards (perhaps only newer ones) have a gap in the right place to allow you to plug it into these slots. So it may not be as bad as I first thought. Still,
are there any PCI-X devices available that aren't hard-drive controllers or gigabit ethernet cards?

(BTW I'm a bit dissapointed with only two PCI slots in my new mainboard. If I had reallized the difference between the two standards I may have chosen differently :/ My mistake. )

DaveW
06-27-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Brian Peterson
Oh I will definently agree with the prices, they have been truly outrageous for years now, with no relief in sight. Frankly the G5s are still overpriced, if they are equivilant to today's Xeons and Athalons. I recently assembled a dual Xeon that was half the price of it's supposedly "equal" G5!

Yeah if you build it yourself they're always cheaper. But if you compare to a pre-built system the prices are pretty similar. The PC world does seem to move faster so the price/performance disparity is likely to increase again, but I doubt it'll get as big as it currently is with the G4's. But then Mac users have never had a problem paying a premium for what they consider a better computer.




Hmm, I may have missed it, but I'm not seeing that on the Panther preview page. I've scoured that section of the Apple website, and for being true 64 bit processing Apple sure isn't boasting that fact, isn't even mentioning it from what I can see. So please post a link to where it says that.

They don't seem to mention it on Apple's website, but a lot of news sites have reported Panther as being 64bit.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030625/101/e36al.html
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1122242,00.asp

lone
06-28-2003, 07:52 AM
i wonder how many APPLE users own new VW BEETLES. just curious.

uberslayer™
06-29-2003, 09:47 PM
LMFAO. Tell it like it is bruvvaaa. I think you're onto something there Lone; and to answer the (whiney voice) "if you don't like macs why not go away and don't ruin the illusion of our RP fantasy".................................................. .......Don't you think the title of this thread encourages debate? I used macs for at a place I worked for a couple of years and went home and kissed my PC every night. It's fun reading peoples arguments for and against and throwing in two cents every now and again. Guess it's not much fun when you're fighting a losing cause lol.